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kit fristo
12-19-2001, 11:06 PM
think about it?
rae the rumours really true?????
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

GNT
12-19-2001, 11:30 PM
I dont think they are the same,rumors are just rumors :)

bigbarada
12-19-2001, 11:41 PM
I heard this rumor a while back and, although it seemed intriguing at the time, I don't think Naboo turns into Dagobah.

I'd imagine the Naboo culture would be razed by the Empire and the planet used as an Imperial Base. Truly tragic turn of events for the peaceful Naboo.

Wolfwood319
12-20-2001, 06:36 AM
And Dagobah looks a little too primordial. Naboo could not become Dagobah in a matter of 20 years or so.

No, just chuck this up on the pile with the rest of the rumors.

Jargo
12-20-2001, 07:28 AM
I would imagine that naboo would serve as a supplier of edible goods during the Imperial regime. As a verdant and lush planet with existing trade with other planets isn't this one of the resones the Neimoidians picked Naboo to blockade? The planet is rich in diverse goods and foodstuffs, a virtual larder and planet wide farm. They have massive wide open plains for grazing flocks of cattle like creatures, they have wide open farmland for growing crops, they have a thriving and skilled textile industry and their craftsmen are second to none. Check out how many of them wear expensive jewellery and you'll see that although they are easily subdued owing to not really being a fighting sort of people, they offer vstt riches to an organisation like the Empire.
I can't see the Empire destroying all of that just taking control and mining the riches from the planet.
As to it becoming Dagobah, I doubt it since the episode one books officially licensed contained astral maps that place both naboo and Dagobah in the galaxy at the same time. They are quite some distance from each other anyway.

JEDIpartner
12-20-2001, 09:46 AM
Thanks for the reference Jargo...!

I was going to say the exact same thing as you! The "charts" of the Galaxy clearly shows TWO planets.

Rollo Tomassi
12-20-2001, 10:56 AM
I thought Naboo got invaded because Sidious orchestrated it that way. Then Palaptine could play the sympathetic "My world is being invaded" card and get elected Empero...uhhhh...Chancellor. It had very little to do with Naboo's importance as a trade route world.

The only thing about Naboo in the OT and the post OT EU books is that it's NEVER mentioned. Not even as a random world. Someone is going to have to explain that away EU style. (the Emperor erased all knowledge of Naboo from the Coruscant computers...) or something.

Co Jo-Da
12-20-2001, 12:44 PM
The universe is a huge place and to think that Naboo and Dagobah is narrow minded if you ask me.




NO WAY

chewbacca71
12-20-2001, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by Co Jo-Da
The universe is a huge place and to think that Naboo and Dagobah is narrow minded if you ask me.




NO WAY

I couldn't agree with you more. Granted, GL is all into this incestuous thing, I don't thing he is planning on the planets taking the same route.

Tycho
12-22-2001, 03:57 AM
I was one of those who Started the Naboo becomes Dagobah thing.

Now I have my doubts and think I was wrong.

Maps show the planets in 2 different places. Something would literally have to be invented that could move an entire planet from the MidRim to the OuterRim if the maps are correct.

If that happened, without a sun, all life on Naboo would freeze and suddenly die. Would it revive itself after 18 years in a new solar system with Dagobah's sun? Maybe - the seeds of life are there, but that's awfully fast....

Next, maybe technology was invented (in the Death Star Super-Weapon style) to move entire solar systems - so Naboo was relocated WITH its sun... (hey it's a fantasy movie - it is at least possible, but quite unnecessary and distracting to the overall story - not to mention we know this doesnt happen in E2, so isn't there enough left to cover in E3 without moving planets and solar systems?

So I totally doubt it from the map standpoint.

Now is the map deliberately incorrect so we don't draw that conclusion before we see it in the movie as a surprise? Well again, it's not in E2 so we won't have an answer for more than 3 years from now. But it could be why we don't see Gungans in the Classic Trilogy....(unless Lucas CGI's them in Classic Trilogy environments -but Gungans would hate Tatooine - therefore not go there...the Death Star and Yavin are out of the question, Hoth too, and what would they do on Cloud City? All these are obscure locations in the galaxy. In Luke's time there might be Gungans on Naboo, and possibly even some serving as slaves or something on Coruscant? We don't know.

JEDIpartner
12-22-2001, 12:50 PM
Well... you KNOW they have to revise the maps AGAIN... as we get Kamino and Geonosis in AOTC.

GNT
12-22-2001, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
I was one of those who Started the Naboo becomes Dagobah thing.

So we have you to blame for all this?

Tycho
12-22-2001, 10:14 PM
Famous last words: "Well, I wasn't the only one...."

But the theory is still possible. A lot hinges on whose ghost that is (which appears to Luke as Darth Vader) in the tree-cave on Dagobah.

I used to think it was Maul's dark stain on the Force that Luke was sensing. Perhaps it is Darth Tyranus'?

Maul would be Naboo - changed into Dagobah.

Tyranus could have been slain by Yoda on Dagobah-proper though, with no special circumstances of intra-system / solar system transfers of large planets or bad maps.

It remains until Episode 3 to be seen, really. One thing that would clarify things is learning if Count Dooku / Tyranus is from the Bpasshi System. But this is an EU connection - enough said. Also, Timothy Zahn explained WHO the Dark Jedi was that Yoda killed there (by the tree cave) and that one was another EU character so forgettable, that I forgot already (See the Hand Of Thrawn duology - I believe it's revealed in "Vision of the Future).

But we won't know anyway for another 3 years...so?

kit fristo
12-27-2001, 04:30 AM
Well well well well.

the kit/kaminoian is back yes.

only time will tell...........

The Overlord Returns
12-27-2001, 04:53 AM
Back when I was Overlord of the Sith, I remember debating this issue quite a bit.

I was watching Empire again recently, and I noted something about the cave sequence that had slipped by me before.

The area that Vader is entering from is clearly covered by man made walls. The surfaces are flat and smooth. He also seems to be passing under an archway that would also appear to be man made.

Check it out, if you haven't already noticed. It lends credence atleast to the notion that dagobah once has some sort of civilization.

As for whether naboo is degobah, well, I wouldn't trust the maps too much on this one. First, no way is a spoiler like that going to show up in a map of the sw galaxies. George will obviously change what's out there when he feels the need to. Hence Owen now having NO relation to Ben and instead being Ani's step brother.

The big question to be answered here is where did the Gungans go? If they were not wiped out as a race, or completely enslaved, one would think such a proud race, that was there to witness the emperor's rise, and the creation of an oppressive dictatorship, would have jumped right into the rebellion.

Where did they go?

Tycho
12-27-2001, 11:24 AM
I've noticed the man-made walls you mentioned Overlord. Your idea has merit, but I point out that it is also possible since this is a vision of Luke's future that those walls are nothing more than a vision of the Cloud City gantry way where Vader eventually IS stalking Luke "in real life.'

The set was probably filmed, then made more transparent.

Interesting that the Theed Power Core had similar construction, too, but I think that was to done more to play into George's 'different but familiar' approach to Episode One and reinventing a lot of what you saw in the Classic Trilogy.

Jedi Clint
12-27-2001, 03:05 PM
Welcome back Overlord!

I have a couple of comments regarding this topic.

It is a safe bet that even if this were in the SW master plan it will not take place in E2. This topic would have been better located in the E3 forums.

I don't think this will come to pass. There are many species that aren't present in the OT that are in the PT. The Gungans are no more witness to the events that unfold than the Kaminoans are. Does that mean that the Kaminoans are destroyed as well? We are talking about a great deal of time spent dealing with a few relatively minor loose ends. Naboo and Dagobah are two entirely different planets in appearance and, I contend, in fact as well. What type of weapon would change the ecosystem of a planet into a swamp in 20 years, and why would that be a punishment to any sentient creatures (especially the Gungans of Naboo who live in a swamp)? Do we spend screen time discussing the new ecosystem-changing super weapon? I say no.

On the subject of destroying Naboo: With what? The destruction of a planet is introduced in ANH to the awe struck passengers and crew of the Falcon flying through Alderaan's debris.

Killing the Gungan's off: Why waste screen time showing the brutal destruction of their race? Unless we go back to destroying all of Naboo in a Death Star esque explosion, then that is what would be required to explain their absence from the OT (which I once again insist is not required).

The cave/tree on Dagobah: This "place" is strong with the dark side. That is all the explanation that I need. Let the EU writers stumble through the mundane details of why a "cave" wall appears man-made, or why the dark side presence was there in the first place. I like Tycho's explanation for the "walls" though. The dark side manifest itself to Luke in the form of a warning. It was a vision of the future combined with a warning against aggressive action and ignoring the advice of his mentor Yoda. Become what you fear the most.

JM2CW

Jargo
12-27-2001, 05:19 PM
There's nothing in the cave but that which Luke takes with him. yoda says so. The cave is just a hole in the ground. there's no dark side there or no spirit of a dead whoever. It's just a hole in the ground that Yoda sends a naive and gulliblr padawan learner into to teach him a lesson he won't forget. The dark side is what you carry with you when you fear. When luke takes his weapons into the cave he gives in to fear and has a vision conjured from his minds eye of vader. if Luke had left his weapons behind he would have seen no dark visions and instead seen something of Leia or Han. of a brighter future.
Yoda is a cunning old frog who used Luke's fear to teach. to pass on valuable knowledge. A simple psychological jedi mind trick.

Tycho
12-28-2001, 02:01 AM
I am very inclined to agree with Jedi Clint, however I like Emperor Jargo's take on the whole tree-cave incident. It is very logical and refreshingly new insight into a theory I had never thought of.

Thanks to both of you.

(Clint - by the way, the thread is fine where it's at -as now it could just as easily be a Classic Trilogy discussion, too. I don't think we should focus on where it's appropriate to say things (in this case) but as you did, focus on what's being said. Thanks for contributing to a great discussion - and thanks to Jargo, too).

Oh - and Jedi Clint, I'd love to hear what you think about Jargo's theory. It seems so obviously possible now that I'm embarassed I never saw this coming:

1) There is NOTHING special about that cave
2) LUKE created the vision he saw in there, because
3) Yoda told him he'd see the Dark Side there and
4) we believe a lot of what WE (ourselves) want to believe

-this is a case of Luke doing just that - and then realizing that HE took the Dark Side (of himself) into that cave when he entered it.

Clint: I still like the idea of a battle being fought there and the stain or ghost of a Dark Side entity being there - like a poltergeist or something, but each idea has a 50-50 chance in my evaluation, now. Neither would be disappointing, now that I look at it from Jargo's perspective.

The Overlord Returns
12-28-2001, 09:07 PM
Cheers Clint! I figured as the ep 2 train really starts to rumble I'd best come back for the excitement.

I agree with both of you, naboo is most likely not degobah. Still, it isn't beyond the realm of possibility. An eco weapon capable of overcasting an entire planet could be explained away in a few lines. As could the destruction of the gungans. I do disagree that the gungans would no more likely play a prominent role in a rebellion than the kaminoans. The gungan race has a tighter bind to the major players than the kaminoans. The kaminoans also seem to be more of a "deal" making species. Therefore they may side with the empire....

Jedi Clint
12-29-2001, 12:50 AM
I kinda wondered what happened to ya :). I can see where you're coming from. I see it different. What fun would SW discussions be if we all agreed on everything?:) I think I was relating the Kaminoan/Gungan thing to each species lack of involvement in the OT. I think the majority of the galaxy (save for the Jedi, their sympathizers, and a few idealistic senators) support the Empire in it's infancy. I believe (at this point) that the Empire will be overwhelming welcomed into existence as an end to the devastation of the Clone Wars. The reunification of the Republic and the Confederacy of Independent Systems spawns Palpatine's Empire. I can go into that more if need be.

The only exposition I've seen for the nature of the water planet's inhabitants was from the actress that plays the Kaminoan Taun We, who describes their species as beings of love and light. Their business is cloning, and they are under the impression that they are creating the army for the Republic under the guidance of the Jedi order. I am not sure if (after the events of AOTC) the Kaminoans will begin producing clones for the Confederacy as well, or whether another group will use the same technology to build a clone army for the Confeds (one way or the other, I am pretty sure they develop their own after their Super droid army is wasted by the clones).

I don't see that the Gungans as a group have a bond to the main characters as much as just Jar Jar does. We still don't know what his fate will be. My bet is, he is still somewhat clueless even as a "Senator" (I gotta know how he scored that job!!). Unless someone tells him that the Empire is bad, he might believe it is peachy. Padme (as well as Kenobi, Yoda or anyone else who knows what is going on) may be unable or unwilling to send the Gungan Senator word of Palpatine's true nature as they are all in hiding. If that is the case, then he and the Gungans he represents would have no reason, at least during the course of E3, to oppose the new regime.

I am absolutely not trying to say that your theory is outside the realm of possibility OOTS ;), just putting forth my counter-points in the spirit of good discussion.

Tycho,

I was only expressing my opinion regarding the initial location of this topic. I wasn't attempting to change it's focus, nor was I threatening to move the topic. You can see this by re-examining the statement that I made.

I think that Jargo has an excellent theory regarding the whole situation with the "cave". :)

kit fristo
12-29-2001, 07:19 PM
hey jediclint and all of youes anyways i persionly think that it is the case. at the end of ep1 yoda travelled to the naboo, soo yoda is awere of the naboo. when the galexy is under threat and the anakin has turned to the dark side he will travel to naboo and live in a cave.

thats what i think anyway.

take care the kit! :D

Jargo
12-29-2001, 07:44 PM
We don't really need to know what happens to the Gungans. they have no part to play after Padme goes into hiding. If the characters never return to Naboo after episode two then why worry about what happens to the Gungans? George will probably add a couple into the OT anyway for a laugh. :frus:

The Kaminoans being creatures of love and light are possibly just curious scientists who don't really bother with political issues. They live in their remote world in remote cities that are hermetically sealed so they like their solitude don't they? Why does every species have to have a very involved outlook on life? Can't these Kaminoans be just like the Ithorians of the EU and live in peaceful bliss unaware of the goings on in the galaxy?

How about that they just like to create living beings. their purpose in the life is to create life. they created the hi-tech environment they live in to further that aim. Palpatine somehow gets wind of this place from his spies and decides to use the Kaminoans naivety to create his perfect army. Perhaps he only learned of the Kaminoans from Jango who he has used before to secure his place as Supreme Chancellor by dint of some carefully planned assasinations....

With Jango working as a go between the Kaminoans would be unaware of who Sydo Dios(?) is, perhaps they would simply just take him as a client who requires a large number of cloned drones. The Kaminoans are aware of the fact that they are creating soldiers are they?

If the Kaminoans are just naive beings who exist to create, they would see the gift of Boba - the first born - to Jango as an honour perhaps? A gift of life for the gift of the life giving essence - DNA.

Just thoughts I had tonight as I wandered through this warren of posts........ :happy:

LTBasker
12-29-2001, 09:10 PM
Yoda was hiding on Dagobah because it was Rich in the force right? And because of that, it could cloak him from the Dark Side.....riiiight? Well, think about it, Palpy's been to Naboo, as has Anakin. So if Naboo turned into Dagobah, Vader & Palpy who's the almighty Emperor should've probably been able to sense it if they had been there before.

Jargo
12-29-2001, 09:22 PM
Why is dagobah any more rich in the force than any other planet?
Yoda is just hiding there because it's an inhospitable place that has a dense climate and is therefore harder to search using sensors. Luke mentions to R2, as he passes through the atmosphere of Dagobah that his sensors are not working doesn't he?
So if Luke can't sense with his onboard equipment what's down below then the Imperials would have similar problems yes?
Ergo - Dagobah = safe-ish place to hide for an aeon or two :)

I think Naboo isn't figuring in the Imperial years because it's just a dull planet. The people of Naboo gavein so quickly to the useless Neimoidian battle droid army which was really very small so they would give in even more quickly to a vast Imperial army.
The Gungans are under the leadership of Jar Jar so they don't stand a chance of being lead into a glorious battle. Jar Jar is a coward and would sooner save his peole by giving in to peacable servitude than to lead them into a mass slaughter during a period of resistance.
Maybe the rebels recruit a few Gungans somewhere and in some skirmish or other offscreen but there really is no need for them to figure in the OT or in episode three.

As for Dagobah being the remnants of Naboo, The trees in the swamp have a similarity but beyond that where's the ecological similarities? What happens to the heads of those statues? Or the grassy plains or the civilsation? It's not likely that there would be more water on Naboo than there already is. It's more likely if there were to be a natural disaster that the planet dries up. Naboo is lit by a strong sun. This much is evident from the phantom menace and the episode two trailers. If for some reason the sun became stronger as it grew older and went supanova or something, then that would change the atmosphere drastically to give the planet a hotter climate which could dry up the spongey terrain and reduce the planet to nothing more than something like a loofah sponge.
George seems to like leaving his planets 'as is' apparently. take Tatooine, he could have done something different with Tatooine given that it's seen what - 32 years prior to ANH in TPM. He could have made tatooine more verdant in TPM and then shown us the effects the Empire had on the planet when we catch up later with Luke. But George thought it would be better to leave Tatooine as we know it to increase the recognition factor for the hard of thinking. It's a desert planet in episodes one, two and three so it's a desert planet in episode four. Naboo is a verdant sunny planet in episodes one and two and it's a safe bet that it'll stay that way should he add it to the OT in any small way - perhaps in the end celebrations of Jedi, he'll add the Naboo celebrating the end of the Empire. :happy: