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View Full Version : THE FIRST mistake of George Lucas! :'(



Rian Jardrit
07-26-2004, 04:17 AM
OMG... GL went the wrong way after all, and I hoped they DID NOT forget about the detail... but they DID! :cry:

On Hyperspace pictures of Hayden were shown there, and two pics of him IN THE DARTH VADER costume!! I REALLY LOOKS AWASOME... IF the next film after Revenge of The Sith would be Empire Strikes Back...

Does anyone KNOW HOW Vader looks like in A New Hope?? His suit is slightly different from that of ESB and ROTJ... Part of his Jedi-like robe, the bits that go over shoulders has been put over the shoulder/neck plate of Vader in ANH. But in ESB they changed it, so that the jedi-like robe would be UNDER the shoulder/neck plate... (look at the pic :crazed: )

THIS is where GL has gone, to me, DRASTICALLY WRONG! In EP3: ROTS Vader wheirs THE SAME suit as in ESB and in ROTJ, but NOT the suit of ANH....

THEN WHY THE HELL WOULD VADER CHANGE IS SUIT JUST FOR ANH?!?!? I know it's just a small detail, but THIS is now the FIRST mistake they made in connecting episode 3 to episode 4... :bored:

Elliejabbapop
07-26-2004, 07:42 AM
Then why would he change it from ANH to TESB, eh?:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: He can put that thing however he bloody likes, we don't know how he wears it in the twenty years between ROTS and ANH, maybe it just depends on how he wakes up lol We also don't know how we're going to see it in the film, it might have been a test. Mind you the first Vader suit is a prototype and that robe really goes by chance I think: come on, even Vader must get tired of being always the same or perhaps he just puts it on casually, which I think is the best explaination :D

JEDIpartner
07-26-2004, 09:11 AM
I'm not so bothered by Vader's fashion inclinations.

stillakid
07-26-2004, 09:56 AM
THE FIRST mistake of George Lucas!

What do you mean "first"? :rolleyes: That dude's on a roll.

Anyhow, don't let the others bother you. You're absolutely right. While the armor, suit, and mask did definitely change in very significant ways from IV to VI, it doesn't give Lucas the license to have the Episode III costume look like a Post ANH version. This either tells us that he plans to make some kind of CG change to the SuperNifty DVD set for ANH or it is just further proof that he's completely lost all contact with reality. Of course, those aren't mutually exclusive and could both be true. :(

Beast
07-26-2004, 10:15 AM
Don't mind Stilla. He likes to find something to tear the PT down at every turn. Since EIII is roughly 18-20 years before ANH, who cares if Vader's costume looks a bit different. Maybe Vader tried that over the robe look, and someone told him it looked like crap. Which it does, and he went back to having the inner robe be under the chest plate. See, easy justification for it not being over the shoulder armor. God, some of you Prequel Haters sure love zeroing in on the smallest of things to whine about. :rolleyes:

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

jeddah
07-26-2004, 10:51 AM
Sometimes I wears me black shoes, sometimes I wears me brown ones, innit.

Just because a photo of me in my brown pair predates another of me in my black pair does not prove that I never wore the brown ones thereafter.

What is the big deal? Vader's a hot chic fashionista :D

jeddah

stillakid
07-26-2004, 11:29 AM
God, some of you Prequel Haters sure love zeroing in on the smallest of things to whine about. :rolleyes:

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks
God, some of you Lucas-ites find the silliest ways to justify your worship. :rolleyes:

plo koon 200
07-26-2004, 11:32 AM
Hmm, actually that suit has a few differences from the ESB one as well. But, it is Vader. It looks like Vader. And, I could care less as long as it looks like Vader.

Jedi_Master_Guyute
07-26-2004, 11:35 AM
Man o man, Binksy is right. The PT loathers are REALLY scraping for stuff to complain about. As for Vaders suit and stuff, maybe he did change the style over the years and maybe Tarkin was just like, "Oh, Vader, what are you doing with those robes?!? Change those!!!" and he fixed them up. We don't really know how the suit thing is going to work out until we see the damned movie.

personally, i think Vaders whole style is very pre-1970's and i think we should send him on "Queer eye" and giev him a complete makeover! Just my thoughts though. :crazed:

Beast
07-26-2004, 11:37 AM
God, some of you Lucas-ites find the silliest ways to justify your worship. :rolleyes:
Yes, god I am such a Lucas lover that I find ANH to be the worst film out of the five that have been released so far. God, I sure kiss his arse. Seriously Stilla, get off your high horse and get over yourself. Nitpicking about a miniscule difference in Vader's costume, when he wears a slight variation of it in every movie, is just silly as hell. :p :rolleyes:

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

bigbarada
07-26-2004, 03:15 PM
I agree with stillakid that this is hardly Lucas' first mistake. However, this is probably one of the most trivial and minor inconsistencies that fans will argue over ad nauseum in the years to come.

Nobody seemed to notice that the special edition Stormtroopers added into ANH were actually wearing the helmet designed exclusively for ROTJ. In the long run I don't think anybody really cares either.

So Vader changes his clothes once or twice every couple of decades, that's hardly as big a problem as Greedo shooting first.

plo koon 200
07-26-2004, 03:56 PM
I can see it now, Habro's next toy is Darth Vader with Removable Clothes.

El Chuxter
07-26-2004, 04:02 PM
Ah, but will Hasbro get his underwear accurate? Therein lies the real question.

What type of underwear do you reckon a half-dead cyborg Sith Lord wears, anyway? My money's on briefs. White bikini-style briefs with stylized red lips and script writing that reads, "Hungry for some loving!"

Pendo
07-26-2004, 04:18 PM
What type of underwear do you reckon a half-dead cyborg Sith Lord wears, anyway? My money's on briefs. White bikini-style briefs with stylized red lips and script writing that reads, "Hungry for some loving!"I heard a nasty rumour that Vader likes to wear ladies underwear :crazed:! However I think either a pair of crotchless panties, or some silk white boxer-shorts with little red hearts on them :stupid:!

PENDO!

stillakid
07-26-2004, 10:33 PM
Okay, so if he came out wearing this:


http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.scarepros.com/i/Action%2520Heroes/Darth.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.scarepros.com/catalog/item/591762/330703.htm&h=300&w=161&sz=11&tbnid=1hBR4QcoK1sJ:&tbnh=109&tbnw=59&start=39&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddarth%2Bvader%2Bmask%26start%3D20%26h l%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN

Or this:
http://www.costumeuniverse.com/details.asp?prodid=60126&cat=65000&path=60000,65000

Or this:
http://lar.5u.com/mask-vader.jpg

Or this:
http://www.kalaspinglan.se/images/darthwader.jpg

Or this:
http://www.mailorderexpress.com/shop/prdpics/93031.jpg

Or this:
http://pappfund.com/ItemImages/full/94.jpg

Or this:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.magicmakers.com/retail/costumes/Children/darthvader.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.magicmakers.com/retail/costumes/Children/darthvader.html&h=301&w=156&sz=14&tbnid=Ag6qkVhn7ekJ:&tbnh=111&tbnw=58&start=23&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddarth%2Bvader%2Bmask%26start%3D20%26h l%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN

...everyone would be okay with that?

stillakid
07-26-2004, 10:45 PM
Anyway, the true point is that there are significant differences between each of the classic Darth Vader visages. ANH looked like this:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/bingo275/ANH%20Vad%20helmcomps.htm

Several details were changed for Episode V which gave us this:

http://www.troopersrus2.8m.com/esb05.jpg
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/bingo275/vaderfan.htm

And the ROTJ mask changed as well:
http://www.troopersrus2.8m.com/rotj07.jpg


So what Rian is trying to tell all you very forgiving people is that while George might enjoy the look of the ROTJ Vader more, if he really gave a rats arse about continuity (a major flaw of Lucas's which has already been proven out many times) he would have Hayden don a mask that was closer in look to the ANH version which had a pointier peek and a much smaller lower triangle screen. Nitpicking? Depends on how much detail you're willing to gloss over for a cheap thrill I suppose. It's already been determined that a guy like JJB could care less about detail so long as he has some kittens while watching a film. I, on the other hand, prefer a storyteller to be a little more loyal to his own creation. Call me crazy. :crazed:

The 'Xir
07-26-2004, 11:31 PM
Sorry Guys, I'm a GL *** kisser like many of ya, and would normally come up with (more sound reasoning) why this shouldn't matter, however, I saw ANH in the theatres way back when in '77/'78, and therefore also consider myself a SW Purist and I'm actually gonna have to agree with Stilla on this one!!! :eek: :crazed: :speech:

It may be a small detail, but think about it... All six of these movies are about the evolution of Anakin Skywalker, it's the whole basis of these movies and although such minute details normally might be overlooked in other movies, it's that Mask, that costume and that presence that put the fear of god into us all back in '77 or whenever you first saw Vader! We as true SW fans should want to see how that all EVOLVED, the person, the mask AND yes even the costume!
It's gonna be hard enough as it is to reason why everything looks so shiny and new(except obviously the different time and technology the 2 prequels were made) in the prequel trilogy and then believe in a grainy looking outdated movie as the future! So small details like having Vaders costume look as it did in ANH help that process of bleeding the two trilogies together. As Stilla said creating continuity between EpIII and IV! Now we are going to see a sleek new shiny Vader just as it looked in RotJ and then go to a duller more crude looking suit in ANH then watch it become shiny again! I just won't make sense to the eyes, and further seperate these two prequels from each other!

I fear that if Lucas' has made other mistakes like this, these two trilogies will forever be referred to as OT and PT like they shouldn't even belong together, when a true SW fan... A Purist... would want them to be one giant exciting and SEEMless story for all generation to appreciate! I still have faith in ya George... Give me somthing I can defend PLLEEEASEE... so I won't have to agree with Stilla again! :p ;)

Rian Jardrit
07-27-2004, 05:37 AM
I AGREE! :D

We all know that there has been many mistakes that GL made. And I KNOW it's a SMALL detail... but COME ON... STAR WARS IS AWSOME, and I am a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGEE FAN, (you should see my room :crazed: ) BUT GL should ATLEAST still KNOW what he did in ANH!

And I love the ESB and ROTJ version(s) a whole lot more... and everyone else does, but lets atleast tie(-fighter:nerv: ) ROTS and ANH togheter. And indeed maybe for the DVD they will change the costume digitally! lol

And I keep coming back to it... but ITS THE LAST MOVIE... the movie, wich is told to be the shortest of all (:frus: :mad: :dead: :confused: :( :cry: :eek:) other 5, where A LOT has to be explained that ties togheter the movie to the others... GL can't afford to make mistakes, even if they are so small... he OWES us STAR WARS geeks:cry:
I guess I'm affraid that episode 3, that SHOULD BE the best of em all... will be the worst...:(
I mean... atm I am not so jumping of joy over Grievous... I mean... Dooku is a great character... why let him get killed so soon... :neutral: ugh... well maybe Grievous will be kewler and MORE REALISTIC then in the Clone Wars cartoon... he 0wned a little TOO big...

stillakid
07-27-2004, 11:11 AM
I still have faith in ya George... Give me somthing I can defend PLLEEEASEE... so I won't have to agree with Stilla again! :p ;)

The normal cadre of GL supporters won't answer. I've seen this pattern before. Once I've proven my point (not really my point...just the point), they sort of drift away quietly unwilling to admit that they were wrong.

But I'm glad that at least you see the problem too. This seemingly minor "flaw" is indicative of what I've been talking about regarding every other problem in the Prequels except the issues usually have little to do with cosmetics and more to do with the more important story elements. I'd love for this saga to be a cohesive whole, but when it takes such large levels of apologetic rationalization to achieve that goal, I have to cry foul.

Exhaust Port
07-27-2004, 11:31 AM
Jesus, this line of *****ing could be enough to turn me off from SW or at least the fan community.

DV already has a history of variation in his appearance albeit small ones. Variations in his cloak between Ep. III and Ep. IV are unexcusable but variations in his "paint-job" between Ep. IV through Ep. VI are accepted?

Over roughly 30 years things vary and god forbid that should happen with character images. The Stormtroopers are obviously evolving with each episode. The ships are evolving with each episode. So does DV. Anakin starts out with one look and has it change over the years for reasons not discussed in any of the movies.

If you're a SW fan you obviously can suspend your understanding of physics to enjoy this series. Obviously costume design is of the utmost importance.

Beast
07-27-2004, 12:12 PM
Yeah, a minor difference in the Vader costume between EIII and EIV, which takes place nearly 20 years later isn't a big deal. Given the fact that it's been nearly 2 decades, and Vader's costume is slightly different in each movie. At least he's not somehow changing his shirt while frozen in carbonite or something. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

bigbarada
07-27-2004, 12:30 PM
The normal cadre of GL supporters won't answer. I've seen this pattern before. Once I've proven my point (not really my point...just the point), they sort of drift away quietly unwilling to admit that they were wrong.

But I'm glad that at least you see the problem too. This seemingly minor "flaw" is indicative of what I've been talking about regarding every other problem in the Prequels except the issues usually have little to do with cosmetics and more to do with the more important story elements. I'd love for this saga to be a cohesive whole, but when it takes such large levels of apologetic rationalization to achieve that goal, I have to cry foul.

Shortly after Ep2, I gave up all hope of the Prequels meshing seemlessly with the OT. So that's probably why a continuity flub as insignificant as this (expecially compared to all the other major continuity flubs you've mentioned before) is hardly enough to get me upset in even the slightest way.

To tell the truth, I didn't notice any of the differences in Vader's helmet until just a few years ago. And I don't think many young kids who see the saga for the first time will notice it right away either.

Darkness Shroud
07-27-2004, 01:30 PM
Maybe he got out of his meditation chamber late one morning. Its no problemo to me if he wears it on or under. Sometimes i wear my shirt tucked in my jeans but the majority of the time it hangs out......

The shirt that is.:)

stillakid
07-27-2004, 02:19 PM
Jesus, this line of *****ing could be enough to turn me off from SW or at least the fan community.

DV already has a history of variation in his appearance albeit small ones. Variations in his cloak between Ep. III and Ep. IV are unexcusable but variations in his "paint-job" between Ep. IV through Ep. VI are accepted?

Over roughly 30 years things vary and god forbid that should happen with character images. The Stormtroopers are obviously evolving with each episode. The ships are evolving with each episode. So does DV. Anakin starts out with one look and has it change over the years for reasons not discussed in any of the movies.

If you're a SW fan you obviously can suspend your understanding of physics to enjoy this series. Obviously costume design is of the utmost importance.

You're missing the point. It isn't about random differences. We all accepted them from ANH through ROTJ as an evolution of the character.

The point here is that the Pre ANH armor/mask is more reminiscent of Post ANH imagery than it should be. So what we'll get is a Vader that looks like ROTJ Vader, then an entirely different version in ANH which then slowly turns back into the PreANH Vader by the time we hit Episode VI again. It's like saying Vader's "old", then young, then old again.

Exhaust Port
07-27-2004, 02:49 PM
So Vader can only evolve your way rather than any other way? Can you honestly listen to yourself? "Vader looks to much like ROTJ Vader than the ANH Vader." Sweet Jesus, how does this alter the universe? Perhaps Anakin started with armor A then changed to armor B about the time ANH rolled around. It turned out that armor B made his butt look big so it was back to armor A (or a version of it) by the time ROTJ rolled around.

Beast
07-27-2004, 03:12 PM
So Vader can only evolve your way rather than any other way? Can you honestly listen to yourself? "Vader looks to much like ROTJ Vader than the ANH Vader." Sweet Jesus, how does this alter the universe? Perhaps Anakin started with armor A then changed to armor B about the time ANH rolled around. It turned out that armor B made his butt look big so it was back to armor A (or a version of it) by the time ROTJ rolled around.
It is pretty freakin' sad, isn't it Exhaust Port. I see no major reason to be crapping all over EIII just because Vader's costume doesn't perfectly match one he'll wear 20 years later in movie time. It's just an overly serious case of someone who refuses to like the prequels in any way shape or form, blasting anything and everything he sees and can find some reason to nitpick. It must be sad to have a life that has come down to that, where the simple tearing apart of a movie is all you live for. And again, it's not nearly as bad as Han Solo somehow changing his shirt while in Carbon Freeze. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

derek
07-27-2004, 05:00 PM
boy, this is one skinny darth vader......

.......and one eye-browless anakin.....

The 'Xir
07-27-2004, 11:05 PM
I'm not going to get into this, but no one is crapping ALL OVER EpIII(well Stilla maybe is) but I'm not! And the fact of the matter is it's not just a small detail of his robes, It's a replica of the same everything as the latter costumes!!! And it's the Helmet that is probably the most recognizable difference between ANH and the last two movies!!! I've actually held the original helmet from ANH, and I'm telling you it's HUGE bigger than you would think or imagine, it's bulky with prominant angular edges, very crude! Where the latter helmets were sleeker looking shinnier, and obviously had a different paint job! So in EpIII you'd expect something similar to ANH's helmet! As I said it's something that should evolve into what we end up with in EpVI!!!
As Stilla would say it comes down to good story telling! There are devices in place that you use when writting that aid in telling a good story, one of them is properly evolving your characters, and there are Do's and Don't of how you develop them, and what George has done is a DON'T!!! And I bet you anything that he did it thinking that most fans would want to see the shinnier version, than trusting his own instincts of story telling if he still has any insticts that is! It's kinda like my previous sentence, in writting there's a rule for proper english stating you never start a sentence with the word: And, but in my laziness I did it anyway! By using the Helmet from the latter movies, George has violated a literary device/rule of good story telling!
Now alot of times I think this is what Stilla always tries to argue, but IMO, some of the rules are more bendable than others, and we just happen to agree with this one, when usually I defend Lucas' freedom of poetic license! Obviously everyone here is entitled to their own opinion, but there are specific rules and devices inplace that define good story telling and you can't argue them even if you don't agree with them because that's what's been proven to work over thousands of years of the written word! Lucas used to follow them, and that's why you always hear Joeseph Campbells' name mentioned and his "Power of the Myth" and "A Hero with a Thousand Faces" books in association or credited with Star Wars; because Lucas basically took all of the devices Campbell discovered all throughout mythology and used them when writting Star Wars! Hopefully he picked these books back up when writting EpIII!

Now I'm done, this is the last I'll say on this topic! Until Stilla pushes another debate! ;)

stillakid
07-27-2004, 11:39 PM
So Vader can only evolve your way rather than any other way? Can you honestly listen to yourself? "Vader looks to much like ROTJ Vader than the ANH Vader." Sweet Jesus, how does this alter the universe? Perhaps Anakin started with armor A then changed to armor B about the time ANH rolled around. It turned out that armor B made his butt look big so it was back to armor A (or a version of it) by the time ROTJ rolled around.
Are you listening to yourself here? I mean seriously, just as XIR so eloquently points out above, this isn't about what I want for god's sake. That's the convenient excuse that the usual cadre of Lucasites use when I press an issue. What I want has very little to do with it save for the fact that what I want is what is logical. Heck, if it could be what "I want" I'd prefer that ALL the masks looked identical. I always thought it was silly that they changed from film to film. But you know what? They did and that's okay because they only got better with time. It didn't really make a whole lot of sense storywise, but I was willing to let it slide. But this insistence that a Post ANH look makes any sense whatsoever in a Pre ANH world is ludicrous. Just when I think I've seen it all, somebody new comes along and shows that we really haven't hit bottom yet... :rolleyes: Christ.

stillakid
07-27-2004, 11:51 PM
It is pretty freakin' sad, isn't it Exhaust Port. I see no major reason to be crapping all over EIII just because Vader's costume doesn't perfectly match one he'll wear 20 years later in movie time.
Do you have any...I do mean ANY...reading and comprehension skills whatsoever? I am serious about this. At what point in this discussion has anyone suggested that they prefer to see the Episode III Vader "perfectly match the one he'll wear 20 years later in movie time"?

All that has been suggested (and I'm repeating again because you clearly have difficulting with the English language) is that anything that comes PreANH should not look like it came from a Post ANH time period. In another futile attempt to reach that brain of yours, I'll offer up a blatantly over-the-top comparison. Suppose our ANH Vader had a big PINK Nose. Then in Empire, it changed to a Cherry Red Nose. Then in JEDI, it turned to a Burgundy Nose. Then we get to the Prequels (which means they came before ANH. I'll say it again but slower for you... B E F O R E). So what version of the nose should we expect to see? Hmm? You have 3 choices...but really 4 I suppose...Episode III could have a completely different nose color...But which shade of Red should it come closest to? The Pink, the Cherry Red, or the Burgundy? Should the Episode III nose be a lighter shade of red or darker? C'mon, you can do it. You figured your computer out, you can do this. I have faith in you. Don't let me down now...



It's just an overly serious case of someone who refuses to like the prequels in any way shape or form, blasting anything and everything he sees and can find some reason to nitpick. It must be sad to have a life that has come down to that, where the simple tearing apart of a movie is all you live for. I'm sure that it makes it easier for you to live your lonely existence believing that. :rolleyes: In reality, I derive a twisted sense of satisfaction seeing how far some people will go to defend a seriously flawed effort. Seriously, somebody needs to write some kind of thesis paper on you. Or at the very least, maybe the autopsy will turn up something. :p

Exhaust Port
07-28-2004, 01:44 AM
Heck, if it could be what "I want" I'd prefer that ALL the masks looked identical.
As with most of your complaints about SW they are rooted in what you want compaired to what you saw.


It didn't really make a whole lot of sense storywise, but I was willing to let it slide.
Well since the SW story has nothing to do with the look of any helmet, armor, ship, clothing material, wall color, flooring textile, planet coloring, language roots, etc. than your complaint that alterations in a helmet or costume are pointless. Now if the story throughout SW regarded the quest for a unique helmet over the course of 50 years then you might have a bases for complaint if such an icon changed from movie to movie.

Never once was the costume of any character a matter of importance to the story. Reading any of the novels doesn't show anything that might be of importance such as if a helmet where to be say more black or a robe re-tailored. You do realize that you are arguing over tailoring?

If you wanted to be picky I would expect one to point out that Hayden isn't nearly tall enough to be the towering Vader that we know from the OT. Are we to believe that Anakin somehow strapped another 6" to 9" onto his frame between Ep. III and ANH? God, how could GL make such a mistake. Worse movie Ever!

bigbarada
07-28-2004, 12:27 PM
I agree that there are definitive rules to good storytelling that aren't a matter of opinion and are pretty much set in stone.

I just don't think the average person is going to even notice the difference. I'm still not even sure that I notice it.

OC47150
07-28-2004, 03:28 PM
Just recently, there was an article that mentioned how Vader's costume had various changes in all the movies. In ANH, Vader's eyes were reddish, while in ESB a darker color.

It's evolution.

The 'Xir
07-28-2004, 03:40 PM
You know what's really gonna matter which encompasses this same argument?! Is his voice! In SW:ANH it just sounds like JEJ is talking through a tin can and as movie making technology got better they turned his voice into that booming Vader-esque vibratto that we normally associate with! So what should Lucas do? Please the fans and give us what we want to hear, or stick to what makes sense for the story, and make his voice sound like a tin can again? Personally I want to hear that tin can voice! Does it sound better than what we hear in ESB and RotJ....Hell No! However, It makes sense to the story as would an earlier version of his costume! I mean if we hear that big vibratto that we are used to in EpIII then watch epIV are we to assume that technology devolved from EpIII to IV and Vader the #2 guy in the Empire maybe had a broken voice box, and didn't have the money to fix it or get a new one! This is mine and Stilla's point about continuity, it's just a matter of good story telling, and Lucas looks as if he's willing to put that aside to please the fans of this generation! The thing to ask is what, are people 50 years from now who have never heard anything about the Saga, going to say when no doubtley they will sit down and watch each episode in chronological order 1-6? How are these mistakes going to make sense to them in terms of the story they are watching unfold? Oh that's right Lucas can just go in and fidget with whatever he wants to for the 150th anniversary of some sci-fi film thing that people suppposedly enjoyed back in the 20th century that resembles nothing like it's original self! :crazed:
:greedy: :greedy: :greedy: :greedy: :greedy: :greedy: :greedy: :greedy:

Exhaust Port
07-28-2004, 05:54 PM
Personally I want to hear that tin can voice!
And with that approach to this or any movie you will be disappointed as directors don't make movies as we see them but as they see them. If you took this same approach to the OT you would have had just as many issues with ESB and ROTJ.

stillakid
07-28-2004, 06:40 PM
And with that approach to this or any movie you will be disappointed as directors don't make movies as we see them but as they see them. If you took this same approach to the OT you would have had just as many issues with ESB and ROTJ.


That's a bullsh*t argument. If you hadn't noticed, ROTJ comes after ESB so any evolution is permitted. Heck, Vader could have gone to an entirely different looking mask for ROTJ so long as some kind of explanation was included onscreen so as to not utterly confuse the audience. But to go back to previous events necessitates a committment to the established continuity. If you can't grasp that simple concept, then I suppose anything goes in your universe. Have a good time! :)

The 'Xir
07-28-2004, 10:50 PM
I know EP, dude you've always seemed like a sensible guy in other threads, but what your saying is that anything goes because that's what power the director has! BS, if that's how he makes his movies than he's a crappy director(I'm talking in general not about GL). When I said, "I want to hear that tin can voice", as I've already stated, it's not 'cause I really like it or really want to hear it, Hell no, I want to hear the classic Vader voice we all know, but "I want it" because it's the right thing to do interms of continuity. So If I was the director, you could count on getting that tin can sounding voice, along with the original costume! That's why I keep saying if your(anyone) a real SW fan, who really cares about these movies, you'd want to see these little details fleshed out, because it means the people behind the scenes care about what their doing, and have put thought into the work their doing, and not just making things flashy or are doing what's popular just to appease some fanboys cheap and truely selfish wants!

Jay86
07-28-2004, 11:00 PM
Well if its inconsistancies and changes in physical appearance of characters in the OT thats the topic of discussion then I offer this -

Mark Hammill got into a car accident between ANH and ESB. In ESB, he appeared onscreen with a new (and bigger) nose and all. Obviously he looked different. Yet no explanation was offered as to WHY "in the Star Wars universe" Luke got a nose job, was there?. Did a Taun Taun bite him? Did the ole X-Wing's brakes give out and result in Luke taking a facedive to the Wing's dashboard? Who knows. The "hardcore til the end" fan side of me just needs to know :rolleyes: . But you cant honestly sit back and tell me that if you're going to get all whiny over some missing shoulder cape thingers that the size of Lukes nose changing between films doesnt matter either? :cry:

For all anyone knows right now, exactly HOW MUCH of Vader do we see? Nobody knows for sure. Maybe we dont even see his whole body :crazed: . Maybe all we see are his eyes or something. Ever think that MAYBE they fog the entire room he's in???? I could be just as picky an anal about the small minor details as any other "fan" or whatever people would love to call themselves nowadays, labels arent important really, but then I remember, I have a life, its a movie, and for all I care they could dress Vader in a tutu and Episode 3'll still be a good/most likely great movie, just like the previous two prequel films. And I remember that I dont love the films for their scripts or screenplays or whatever else it is most people seem to be griping over today (has anyone who's complained of such things even written a screenplay or script of their own?). Are there "problems" within the films? Duh :crazed: . It doesnt take an idiot to know that. Thats common sense. Nothing is perfect, no film is perfect. "Perfection" is something that exists in a Britney Spears video or on MTV, its the thing teenage girls all strive to be but never will be, because theres no such thing as it unless its a product being sold as such. And its easier to critique something like a script or something, then again, has that same person ever directed an award winning movie that has stood the test of time? Psh, I very highly doubt it. As far as "problems" go....it depends on how much you focus on them or dwell on it all. Like I said, I could dwell on it and let it bother me and thus declare myself an "anti-prequel" person. But in reality, I'd rather watch the movie, enjoy it for what it is, and go about my day. Am I a "fanboy"? The hell if I care. I'd rather be a "fanboy" and "follow blindly" and enjoy a movie than toss another one aside over small problems that dont really matter to me and thus dislike something over a script or something. And the hell if I care if I follow some moviemaker "blindly" either. Its a movie, not the end of the world here. Theres more important things in this world that I'd rather focus my critiquing on than movies. Movies are made for entertainment, if it doesnt entertain you, then dont blame the movie maker, because as long as it entertains someone else then its done its job. Is it fair to hold imperfections against someone else? Hardly. Are those who critique everything any more perfect than those they critique? Highly unlikely. Its rather hypocritical. You can critique "because you care", and I understand that. To each their own. Its one thing to critique something, like the gov't, when REAL change is at stake. But critiquing a movie? If it floats your boat then float your boat all you want :rolleyes: . Dont blame other people or hold their opinions against them if they choose to abandon that boat and focus on something bigger and more important. If Jar Jar Binks wants to think Hayden and Jake Lloyd look alike then more power to the kid. Its hardly worth arguing over :rolleyes: . I mean, arguing over how much someone else resembles someone else? Take it to the playground. Toss around some "doo doo head" remarks and buy some Huggies while you're at it. (I'm not attempting to insult anybody here, because I'll be the first to say that I think in terms of politics and such, stillakid knows where its at, but thats a personal thing and thats all related to topics of the Pit. Then again, Jar Jar seems to be a nice kid. More power to em' :) )

I could honestly and seriously debate this....but then I remember, I have a life, and its far away from this computer. So I'll leave it at that. And if anyone even attempts to argue such a ridiculous thing with me or reply to this, dont expect a response, my response has been given - I have a life, I dont need online arguements to amuse me or take up my time. So far all I care, anyone who wishes can go ahead and reply to this and a week later jump up and down in your Star Wars PJ's over the fact that a week later I still havent replied and my ignoring of this topic somehow means you're any more right than me or whatever :rolleyes: . Whats said has been said, my opinion isnt going to change. End, fin, etc etc.

[/End rant]

The 'Xir
07-28-2004, 11:58 PM
Jay I think your taking this a little too far and out of context! If you have such a "life" than why are you posting here at all? :ermm: Maybe the same reason we're all posting here huh? So don't go there!
To answer your thing about Luke, actually you already answered it! It can be explained be the Wampa attack! If you remember or ever knew, there originally was suppossed to be a wampa attack on the rebel base killing some of the Taun-Tauns, but It was rewritten. Who knows maybe it was rewritten because of Mark's accident.
As far as what's been discussed, to make my point clearer and I think Stilla's as well , I've made similar arguments as you just made against alot of the prequel nay-sayers(including Stilla), so I have no problems going in and watching a movie just for the fun of it, however, the point is It's the directors job to make decisions that are good for the story, and Stilla and I fell that although small details, these "mistakes" in our eyes will not be good for the story overall, and raise questions in the viewers mind. And anytime you raise questions in an audiences mind than you better answer them, and if you don't answer them than you haven't done your job as a director! Stilla and I feel, that these small details will raise those types of quesitons, so all we are saying is that Lucas was wrong to raise these quesitons in the first place but we or atleast I still hold out hope that he will give some explanation or answers within the story

stillakid
07-28-2004, 11:59 PM
Well if its inconsistancies and changes in physical appearance of characters in the OT thats the topic of discussion then I offer this -

Mark Hammill got into a car accident between ANH and ESB. In ESB, he appeared onscreen with a new (and bigger) nose and all. Obviously he looked different. Yet no explanation was offered as to WHY "in the Star Wars universe" Luke got a nose job, was there?.
Uh, maybe you missed the whole Wampa sequence? :confused: As I recall, the rumor at the time anyway was that sometime during the writing of ESB, Hamill got into that car crash which, as you mention, altered his appearance somewhat. Kasdan swoops in to the rescue and writes that Luke is attacked by a large snow creature. How about that? Not only is Luke's appearance changed (out of the filmmaker's control), but a wise and qualified writer figures out an entirely logical way to "explain" it within the context of the story.

This isn't just about "changes in physical appearance" etc. It's about when to do it and how it's done. The Episode III mask and costume should resemble the ANH mask and costume more closely than it resembles the ROTJ getup. It's as simple as that. How much clearer can we make it? Honestly people. How do you manage to function in life if you can't figure this out? :confused:


For all anyone knows right now, exactly HOW MUCH of Vader do we see? Nobody knows for sure. Maybe we dont even see his whole body :crazed: .
Well, it is all conjecture for the moment, but judging by the photos, it looks like we get to see the whole enchilada.



(has anyone who's complained of such things even written a screenplay or script of their own?).
Yes. And I'm not the only one.


I'd rather be a "fanboy" and "follow blindly" and enjoy a movie than toss another one aside over small problems that dont really matter to me and thus dislike something over a script or something.
Wow. That statement really caught my eye. "...over a script or something..." Hmm? Maybe you're right. Those silly pages just manage to get in the way anyhow. They serve no purpose.

And people wonder why... forget it. Just know that I'm sitting here with my jaw dropping and my head shaking in resigned disbelief. :sur:




if it doesnt entertain you, then dont blame the movie maker,
This is another doosy. "if it doesn't entertain you, then don't blame the movie maker." Okay. How does that logic apply to other things in life. Let's see. If my breakfast at IHOP comes out burned, it's my own fault for not liking crispy pancakes. If my brand new car explodes in a fiery spectacle when I turn the key, it's my own fault for not being ameniable to cataclysmic circumstances on the road. If (When ;) ) my computer crashes, it's not the fault of Microsoft...it's mine for hating when my computer stops working.



Is it fair to hold imperfections against someone else? Hardly.
You didn't seriously just type that, did you? I'll give you a mulligan here if you'd like to reconsider.




Are those who critique everything any more perfect than those they critique? Highly unlikely. Its rather hypocritical.
Really? Then by that logic we are all restricted from EVER having an opinion (which also falls under the category of critique, does it not?) about anything at all. For none of us are perfect in any way, therefore none of us can have any opinions nor speak them openly lest we be labeled as hypocrites.

You've got a funny kind of logic running here. Ever think of running for Despot?




I could honestly and seriously debate this....but then I remember, I have a life, and its far away from this computer. So I'll leave it at that. And if anyone even attempts to argue such a ridiculous thing with me or reply to this, dont expect a response, my response has been given - I have a life, I dont need online arguements to amuse me or take up my time. So far all I care, anyone who wishes can go ahead and reply to this and a week later jump up and down in your Star Wars PJ's over the fact that a week later I still havent replied and my ignoring of this topic somehow means you're any more right than me or whatever :rolleyes: . Whats said has been said, my opinion isnt going to change. End, fin, etc etc.

[/End rant]

Bravo. :) You're just annoyed that anyone discusses anything at all. You're absolutely right in saying that this is all seriously silly and stupid and is vitally unimportant to the bigger picture of our lives. Fine. We all have our own reasons for wanting to talk about this stuff, each reason as valid as the next.

But I'll tell you why this stuff is important. Because as much as these silly movies (any movies) are to you as just random and cheap entertainment, for a large segment of people, making films is how they (we) make a living. You may jaunt off to the theater as a throwaway idea so you can get in a chick's pants later on that evening. But a lot of people took a lot of time and paid attention to every detail so that that movie would be entertaining for you. From the costume designer to the cinematographer. From the Dolly Grip to the Focus Puller. And on and on and on. Try sitting through the credits once, because I suspect you never have. Count how many people are listed on average. To them, this isn't a random hobby. It's a livelihood. Most of these people have families and bills to pay and normal lives (as best as they can anyway being that the average workday on a movie or tv set is 14 hours). So when some executive or "creative director" or anyone else with the power to drive the direction of a project fundamentally F's it up as bad as ol' Uncle George has, it reflects poorly on all the honestly hard working people who genuinely want to provide fantastic entertainment. When enough of that sub-par material hits theaters, audiences begin to lose faith and they turn to other forms of entertainment. What's that mean for all the cast and crew who make a living doing this stuff? Less films made and what does get made is done for less money...well, at least less money is spent on actual production (more and more goes above-the-line).

So this isn't just idle banter. The film industry is an industry just like any other. Our "factories" are empty stages and remote locations. It doesn't look like any other factory but it is one nonetheless. And the more people like you encourage those in charge to churn out crap, the more they feel justified in doing it. When you lower your expectations and suggest that we all "just enjoy it for what it is," the more you're telling the money people that they don't have to try very hard anymore. Is that what you want? Theaters full of mediocrity? :ermm:

Exhaust Port
07-29-2004, 12:20 AM
But to go back to previous events necessitates a committment to the established continuity.
And the continuity shows that Vaders look varied from movie to movie but each was rooted in the same spirit. I think you even posted a link that showed the variations in the helmets alone. That article listed 4 different style of helmets used in ANH alone. From those grew another evolution of helmet(s) for ESB and ROTJ. In addition to the helmet you could go into the variations in how his costume was painted.

So the first movie had 4 different helmet versions alone and here you are complaining that his cape is hanging different in Ep. III?

I have to be honest that the picture isn't very reveiling and you all seem to be getting awfully bent out of shape on some rather small evidence.


If you can't grasp that simple concept, then I suppose anything goes in your universe. Have a good time! :)
A movie series where sound travels through space? Gravity's laws are basically thrown out the window? Laser blasts produce recoil and have an impact force? Every species can live comfortabily in the same atmosphere and gravity? Where traveling at light speed has no implications in time nor space? Etc...

Apparently as you've aged your ability or willingness to suspend your beliefs and you're now getting caught in some bizarre little details.

Anything goes in my universe? Well it seems you've forgotten that this is a movie and my willingness to believe or disbelieve what I see has no reflection on my interpretation of my actual universe.

stillakid
07-29-2004, 09:41 AM
That article listed 4 different style of helmets used in ANH alone.
Not sure where you came up with that one. There are (currently) just three distinct Vader style masks, one for each released film. And you're still missing the point. I think you just don't want to get it at this juncture. This isn't about changes in general and accepting them. This is about when changes occur and what they look like. I really can't say it any clearer than I already have so I can only conclude that you are ignoring what is being said in favor of just trying to be difficult.

jeddah
07-29-2004, 10:54 AM
Just to clarify, there are probably far more than 3 or 4 variations of the Vader mask, if anyone needs any confirmation or proof, head over to the uber-fan-props at the replica props forum and check it out.

As a member of the R2 builders I can confirm from info coming from Don Bies (who regularly pops in to say hi to the list) that there are many differing R2-D2s, 3-pos and Vaders, etc.

As far as this continuity/cloak/mask thing goes, I have no input - or interest - as this kind of discussion is anathema to me. I can however see both sides of the argument.

jeddah

Exhaust Port
07-29-2004, 11:02 AM
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/bingo275/ANH%20Vad%20helmcomps.htm

There are 4 versions of the ANH Vader helmet used during the film. The ESB and later helmet were derived from one of these 4 masks but in itself is a unique version of the helmet.

The issue can't be when changes occur as it would have to be expected that the PT would show change from the OT. That only leaves what the changes will be as the issue. Your issue here is that the changes are variations of the ESB Vader rather than the ANH Vader. I don't have a problem with this but obviously you and a few others are getting their panties all in a twist.

Being that this is a cosmetic issue for the character I have no problem accepting any small variations as they are all done in the spirit of the characters look. Vader's lightsaber has changed with every movie. By your approach the Ep. III lightsaber can't look like the ESB version as it "skips" over the ANH version. My approach is that it can look like the ESB or ROTJ version as 1) it doesn't change the character 2) Vader is human and can change his "look" back and forth as he sees fit (we all change).

stillakid
07-29-2004, 11:25 AM
My approach is that it can look like the ESB or ROTJ version as 1) it doesn't change the character 2) Vader is human and can change his "look" back and forth as he sees fit (we all change).

So you're saying that he has a closet full of Vader suits and he just picks one out all willy-nilly everyday?


Oooookay....

Jay86
07-29-2004, 12:29 PM
Jay I think your taking this a little too far and out of context! If you have such a "life" than why are you posting here at all? :ermm: Maybe the same reason we're all posting here huh? So don't go there!
To answer your thing about Luke, actually you already answered it! It can be explained be the Wampa attack! If you remember or ever knew, there originally was suppossed to be a wampa attack on the rebel base killing some of the Taun-Tauns, but It was rewritten. As far as the Wampa sequence goes - my whole questioning of that scene was sarcastic, I wasnt completely serious, although part of me would love to know what happened. And I've heard about the whole Wampa attack thing, but think about it. Did you know before you went into that theatre or saw ESB on tape that there was a supposed attack or something of the sort? No. Did anyone who worked on the films offer an explanation in the opening credits as to what happened to Luke? No. So in a sense, that was left for the fans to find out on their own. So no one ever explained it. All I/we saw was the movie open, the probe droid slam into the surface, Luke on the Taun Taun, and then Luke remove his facepiece and talk into his commlink. And I also could have sworn that that scene was BEFORE the wampa one, correct? So yeah, what happened to Luke between ANH and ESB to get his nose to be so....different?

I've got a life, and for those who read what I posted, I suppose I should have included the "slight sarcasm ahead" disclaimer eh? As far as the "having a life" thing goes, you can post on a message board and still have a life. I'll admit I sit here for a few hours a day reading things and searching the net. I wasnt talking about people who sit in front of their computers all day long, but there is a reality off of it. I simply meant that I've got a life and when others argue over such things as resemblances and miniscule details its rather ridiculous to me. THATS what I meant about having a life. Surf the net all you want, but to stop and bring up an arguement over resemblences? Um, ok :rolleyes: .It was a somewhat sarcastic comment, sure we all have lives, but I was more-so trying to point out what people do with theirs, what they spend time on, and how most of hte time there is probably far better things you could be doing perhaps? To each their own though I guess. I didnt mean to offend anybody, I'm just as much a nerd as anybody else on here. What I said should hopefully be looked at as being more of something to consider rather than a criticism too.

Well, anyway, congrats on your lengthy post stilla, but like I said, much of what you replied to can be answered in this one sentence : Much of what I wrote and said had a good amount of sarcasm behind it, so consider that. (See the thing below about imperfections). I will admit much of what I said easily could have come off as one big mush of things, but in my mind its all sorted out a bit better. And I'll also say that I agree with anyone whos saying the Vader helmet should be the same. What I'm also saying is that it'll be ok in the end, trust me ;) . I too believe the helmet should be the same as the ANH Vader helmet and I know where you people are coming from. I just dont see how its as big a deal as its been turned into. Like I said, you cant jump the gun and say that we'll see all of Vader just because a few pics have been taken of all of him now. Who knows, we'll just have to wait and see. In the end though, like I said, its not the end of the world. Perhaps Vader has a few suits, I mean, hygiene and personal cleanliness cant take a back seat to villainy, right? Maybe in Vaders chamber he's got a whole wardrobe of suits, who knows? I mean, even in the fantasy of it all, it would be rather ridiculous for someone who needed such a suit to only have ONE. If I needed the aid of a life support suit I sure wouldnt walk on the wild side and wear the same one all the time. Who knows if a door'll pop down out in front of me (much like the Stormtrooper in ANH), and WHAM, an old crack in the helmet requires it to malfunction and then what? Well, I/Vader'd be screwed, unless of course, we had a whole closet full of helmets and suits at our disposal ;)

And about the whole imperfection thing, just to clear this up. I was talking about the people who hold personal grudges against someone like Lucas just because the guy does something people dont agree with, like write a cruddy script. Just because a guy writes a cruddy script means you've got to act like the guy stabbed you in the back? Eh.....ok :confused: . If it floats that boat of yours.......

And as far as the blaming thing goes. I could have sworn I said to not blame the movie maker (we do all realize more than one person works on a movie, dont we?). Did I, however, say to blame yourself? No, I dont recall saying that and looking back on what I wrote I cant seem to find myself saying that. So the whole "blame yourself if not the movie maker" thing seems to be something you conjured up stilla, not me. I meant that perhaps when things go wrong, maybe its just better to accept things as they've happened and then fix the problem, rather than waste time pointing the blame. Sure if someone hits you with their car you'll need to point the blame because most likely the other person is going to try to sue you for all you're worth. But theres still the possibility that you can sit back and say "what happened happened, cant change it". And I think we all know that if your computer crashes, and you're using Microsoft, then it most likely is Microsofts fault ;) . Then again, it all relates to the people who designed the program. But, and heres what I meant behind what I said about blaming people, can we really blame them for being human and making mistakes? Sure, a certain amount of blame is expected. But (and heres another thing I was aiming at), those who hold a personaly grudge against George Lucas for being human are the people I was speaking of. I mean, yeah, the guy might not be perfect and he might not have done things perfectly, but hes human, so are we. I'm not standing up for the guy in a fanboy sense, I could care less about him. He's made good movies and he's made mistakes. How about actors that act in cruddy movies? Harrison Ford for example, acting in the "Hollywood Homicide" movie. Historically, hes a great actor. But everyone has their ups and downs. Thats what I was really trying to say as far as the whole "blaming others" thing went. And who knows, maybe we'll see the ROTJ Vader in Episode 3. Then again, with all these changes being made my George and co. to his films, perhaps when the entire DVD collection (all 6 movies) comes out he'll already have removed Jar Jar and put the ANH Vader garbs in Episode 3? Who knows :D :crazed: , but that'll give you Jar Jar haters something to look forward to perhaps? :)

And as far as critiquing everything, that was another sarcastic comment. I'm sure no one critiques EVERYTHING, I meant those who seem to dissect everything and dwell on the smallest details until its forced them to go insane.
And its perfect logic that no one is any more perfect than anyone else they critique. If I were to critique you for being imperfect stilla, for example, would I be any more right or perfect? No. No one is any more "perfect" than anyone else. Thats what I'm saying. We're all equal, right? So in a sense, its fine to critique and all, but when it all boils down to opinions, is anyone right or wrong? In our own minds we're right, and maybe thats all that matters :confused: . But we're all just as imperfect as anyone else, we all make mistakes, and in a sense to hold certain mistakes against someone personally, especially when you dont know the person, is rather absurd, I think. Like I said, I realize to some its a way of life, but to hold certain mistakes against someone? Why make it your problem? I thought it was the filmmakers problem? Hmm....

And argue all you want, it actually doesnt annoy me. It amazes me when, as I've stated time and time and time again, people argue over things that probably arent as big a problem as they really should be. And again, like I said, most of what I said should be looked upon as a consideration, not a criticism.

And I think its safe to say that 99.9% of people have all sat through the credits :rolleyes: . As ridiculous as the thought of sitting through credits is, we've all done it just once. And I dont run merrily along to the theatre for cheap thrills. Star Wars is life to me. I've been a devoted Star Wars nerd since I was in 5th grade....for over ten years now. Sure, on the "fan scale" that might not be for very long, but I'm not that old, so slightly more than ten years is more than half of my life. Star Wars is the first thing and the only thing I've ever connected with 100%. Through it I discovered an inner love for many other things, astronomy, robotics, electronics, space travel, etc. But like I've said, part of me is saddened that someone missed the fact that the Episode 3 Vader should be the same as the ANH Vader. But think about it logically. Is there anything we can do to change that? No, not really. So why waste the time complaining about it? Sure people are going to hear you, sort of like how in Episode 2 Jar Jars role was made much smaller. But he still wasnt completely removed from the story. If you want to complain about such things, go ahead. What I said was merely something to take into consideration, not a personal attack on anybody. Think of it this way, I'm in the middle of it all. I'm watching people on one side complain about things and people on the other side argue right back as if the end of the world is at stake. Cant we all just get along? :confused:

By the way stilla, I've never been handed burnt pancakes as I dont know anyone stupid enough to bring me out a plate of them at a restaraunt. I mean, if you worked at IHOP and someone handed you a plate of burnt pancakes and told you to take them to seat #5, would YOU honestly take them to the table? Uh....I hope not. In many ways, that goes against the whole "laws of running a good restaraunt business" thing, doesnt it? But when I do go to IHOP (I never've been, I can make pancakes just fine thank you) and someone brings me a plate of burnt pancakes, you'll be the first to know ;)

Okay, there you go, you got a lengthy reply out of me even though I said I wouldnt :rolleyes: . Yes, I'm a hypocrite, and I'm not perfect, but arent we all that way?

bigbarada
07-29-2004, 01:08 PM
That's why I keep saying if your(anyone) a real SW fan, who really cares about these movies, you'd want to see these little details fleshed out

I guess I'm not a real Star Wars fan then, because I really don't care.

However I agree, Lucas screwed up and betrayed an entire generation of fans and the entire saga is compromised because of a costume discontinuity.

Even if I did believe that I'd still ask, "So what?"

Beast
07-29-2004, 01:17 PM
I still fail to see how this is a huge mistake and a blow against your childhood. Are you guys the same people who watched ROTJ for years, and didn't complain endlessly about the fact that Han somehow changed his shirt while frozen in carbonite? That's a major continuity error. Since Han couldn't have changed his shirt, but Vader could easily change how he wears his inner robes or the style of his helmet.

I don't find the fact that Vader's costume doesn't match his costume that he'll wear nearly 20 years later anything to have a fit about. I never saw the fact that his costume changed from ANH, to ESB, to ROTJ as an evolution of the character. I saw it as the prop department having access to better materials to make the costume look better on camera, nothing more. Seriously, this is sad nitpicking.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Exhaust Port
07-29-2004, 01:49 PM
So you're saying that he has a closet full of Vader suits and he just picks one out all willy-nilly everyday?


Oooookay....
Your discussing a character variation that takes place over 20 years in movie time. The helmet variation is nothing to me (as is this slight change in costume for Ep. III) and that variation takes place almost from scene to scene. I don't get all bent out of shape on such details.

I would have to guess that Vader would have a selection of replacement armor bits. I doubt he would be walking around in one suit for 30 years. My one car is only 4 years old and is showing some wear. My 18 year old car is just about junk. As time would pass Vader would switch out bits and pieces of his suit as they got damaged or wore out. Perhaps his original supplier stopped making the pieces so differences occured with each new supplier. Or...if he made his own outfit then perhaps he we never able to recreate the original piece through artistic ability. As a sculptor to recreate a statue over and over again and variations will appear. Perhaps the 5th statue will have more in common with the 1st than the say 2nd or 3rd would.

stillakid
07-29-2004, 06:03 PM
Your discussing a character variation that takes place over 20 years in movie time. The helmet variation is nothing to me (as is this slight change in costume for Ep. III) and that variation takes place almost from scene to scene. I don't get all bent out of shape on such details.

I would have to guess that Vader would have a selection of replacement armor bits. I doubt he would be walking around in one suit for 30 years. My one car is only 4 years old and is showing some wear. My 18 year old car is just about junk. As time would pass Vader would switch out bits and pieces of his suit as they got damaged or wore out. Perhaps his original supplier stopped making the pieces so differences occured with each new supplier. Or...if he made his own outfit then perhaps he we never able to recreate the original piece through artistic ability. As a sculptor to recreate a statue over and over again and variations will appear. Perhaps the 5th statue will have more in common with the 1st than the say 2nd or 3rd would.

Yes, exactly, and thank you for making my point for me. One would assume that Vader would "upgrade" his components. The key word there is "upgrade," meaning that it gets better over time. So explain why he'd have a (for example) 1983 mask on during a, say, 1967 period of time when we already know what a 1977 mask looks like? In linear storytime, we'll see a 1983 mask, then a 1977, then a 1980, then back to the 1983 mask. In what universe does that make sense? I'm still trying to figure out how you guys can't comprehend that. :confused:

As far as it being a "big deal," where'd you lunatics come up with that. Nobody ever said this was a lifechanging problem or anything. It's random moronic geekboy discussion because I assume we're all killing time and procrastinating from doing something else. So instead of attacking the messengers here and the motives, you know, why not focus instead on the topic or just wander off to some other discussion of interest? :confused:

Kyle Katarn
07-29-2004, 08:24 PM
It's cause in ANH Darth Vader didn't iron his suit, but then Mr. Lucas talked with him before ESB and ROTJ and told him to start ironing. That's the reason, and also that's a minor detail, don't worry about it.

Exhaust Port
07-29-2004, 09:10 PM
So upgrades are seen as making the helmet shine more? Again, things will change but not necessarily as you see fit. Your willingness to only accept change (even in these relatively small cases) with explainations would make for a boring movie. It seems you have more interest in a 3 hour documentary that explained the changes found in costumes, accents, coloring, etc. just so you can appriciate a movie rather than just overlooking just small variations (or god forbid using your own imagination for an explaination).

This is a fantasy genre for the most part so it's OK to fantasize about the possibilies rather than have someone spoon feed you the whole experience.

stillakid
07-29-2004, 10:14 PM
So upgrades are seen as making the helmet shine more? Again, things will change but not necessarily as you see fit. Your willingness to only accept change (even in these relatively small cases) with explainations would make for a boring movie. It seems you have more interest in a 3 hour documentary that explained the changes found in costumes, accents, coloring, etc. just so you can appriciate a movie rather than just overlooking just small variations (or god forbid using your own imagination for an explaination).

This is a fantasy genre for the most part so it's OK to fantasize about the possibilies rather than have someone spoon feed you the whole experience.

Not quite sure where you conjured that ill informed bit o' wisdom from, but you really couldn't be farther from the truth. I'm not looking for a play by play, but if you insist on and support the interruption of continuity in a story, then I would expect some kind of explanation at some point as to why it's happening. The Luke/Wampa thing is a great example, though physical change in an actor is somehow more forgiving than something that the filmmaker can actually control, such as wardrobe and design. So if Lucas wanted to put Anakin in a clown mask for ROTJ instead of sticking with the black garb, I suppose you'd be okay with that change never being explained at all? That's certainly what you're saying. In fact, you insist that the audience be left to it's own devices to concieve of any myriad of explanations for why Darth Vader now looks like Bozo. But hey, if that's the way you choose to enjoy movies, then have it. It's not my cup o' tea. :ermm:

Beast
07-29-2004, 11:24 PM
Comparing a minor helmet difference, to Vader in a Bozo mask is the most ludicrous thing I have ever seen you type, Stilla. Good lord, get over it. Not to mention, if you've seen the documentary photos about the birth of Darth Vader......this is a totally new Helmet sculpt that was based off earlier versions. So it is not a reuse of a previously used helmet or design, as you seem to believe it is. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
07-30-2004, 12:41 AM
Comparing a minor helmet difference, to Vader in a Bozo mask is the most ludicrous thing I have ever seen you type, Stilla.

Well, if nothing else, it's nice to know that I've "peaked" in some way or another. :D

Exhaust Port
07-30-2004, 12:58 AM
Not quite sure where you conjured that ill informed bit o' wisdom from, but you really couldn't be farther from the truth.

Heck, Vader could have gone to an entirely different looking mask for ROTJ so long as some kind of explanation was included onscreen so as to not utterly confuse the audience.

Your willingness to only accept change (even in these relatively small cases) with explainations would make for a boring movie.
:rolleyes: Yeah, where did I ever get that idea?

stillakid
07-30-2004, 10:52 AM
:rolleyes: Yeah, where did I ever get that idea?

Not sure why you're rolling your eyes. You don't seem to grasp the concept of simple change vs. change out of context. Again (as if you'll get this one either :rolleyes: ), if there is a minor change made to anything between films, depending upon what it is, some kind of rational explanation must be made within the context of the story (ie, Hamill's injuries written into the story via a Wampa attack). Evolution of a Vader mask in small ways as the story line progresses doesn't necessitate such an explanation at all. One can reasonably apply their own imagination to believe that Vader "upgrades" or whatnot. No big deal in that case.

But to go back in the linear storyline and change something that has already been established requires an explanation of some kind. And once again (and you'll ignore this too I suspect), if Vader's C-style mask (ROTJ) shows up in the linear timeline before the A-style mask (ANH), it is entirely reasonable to be looking for an explanation somewhere in the saga for it. Ironically, such an explanation does not necessarily belong in Episode III. Rather, we should expect a throwaway line in A New Hope as to why his armor suddenly looks older, duller, and less "cool" than we just saw an episode earlier.

If you keep :rolleyes: , your face will stay that way. That's fine with me, but I'm just trying to do you a favor so you can hold off on that :rolleyes: until you fully grasp what you're :rolleyes: -ing about in the first place. :)

Exhaust Port
07-30-2004, 11:55 AM
Wow, and you complain about me missing the point. You asked where I drew my conclusions from your comments and insinuated that I "conjured" them up out of thin air. Well I quoted from your post where I drew those conclusions quite clearly. As obvious as it was to me I figured it would have been as obvious to you (since they were your comments). By me trying to establish that connection all you can draw from that is my use of the :rolleyes:?? I guess I'll have to change the use of obvious to oblivious.

I guess we'll have JEJ dub the line "Sorry about the armor chaps, I've been too busy to give her the ol' Armorall treatment this week."

stillakid
07-30-2004, 12:53 PM
Wow, and you complain about me missing the point. You asked where I drew my conclusions from your comments and insinuated that I "conjured" them up out of thin air. Well I quoted from your post where I drew those conclusions quite clearly.

No, you interpreted my comments to suit your purposes without really wanting to comprehend what I was saying. There is a distinct difference. :)

The 'Xir
07-30-2004, 02:15 PM
Ummm WOW!!!... I uh... am not sure If I even want to respond to any of this!

All I'm gonna say is sarcastic comments or not, you can't enter a forums board post comments and not expect people to respond to them either for or against!

Also no one has addressed my whole point about Vaders' voice? Which one do you think we'll get? And if we are to get the normal sounding one from ESB and RotJ, then are we to just use our imaginations that maybe Vaders voice box is broken or he has a cold all throughout ANH, without any proper explanation as to why it sounds like he's talking into a tin can? How are your guys' "imagination over continuity" arguments going to hold up then? We all know the real reason.. better film making technology, but that real life, it's not a continuity/story explanation. You know what, forget the whole costume/armour thing! Just for the sake of it I'll say I've been totally wrong about this whole subject on the costume. Just to hear your answer about this one quesiton(Vaders' voice)! Which by the way is no small detail, his voice is a MAJOR detail, and a major tool that expresses his evil and forboding nature!
Oh and Bigbarada if you respond to this one that you really don't care, than no your not a real SW fan(do I believe that No, or else you wouldn't have been on these forumsa for all this time) But, how can anyone with any love of these movies just blindly except: EpIII Cool Vader Voice... EpIV is he talking into a tin can hhmm?, EpV Oh he's got his cool voice back, EpVI cool he still has it... gee I wonder why it sounded so funny in EpIV. Oh golly gee whitikers I guess we all know ole georgey boy knows what he is doing! Hey Stilla this one's for you brother... ready... :rolleyes:

bigbarada
07-30-2004, 02:30 PM
Ummm WOW!!!... I uh... am not sure If I even want to respond to any of this!

All I'm gonna say is sarcastic comments or not, you can't enter a forums board post comments and not expect people to respond to them either for or against!

Also no one has addressed my whole point about Vaders' voice? Which one do you think we'll get? And if we are to get the normal sounding one from ESB and RotJ, then are we to just use our imaginations that maybe Vaders voice box is broken or he has a cold all throughout ANH, without any proper explanation as to why it sounds like he's talking into a tin can? How are your guys' "imagination over continuity" arguments going to hold up then? We all know the real reason.. better film making technology, but that real life, it's not a continuity/story explanation. You know what, forget the whole costume/armour thing! Just for the sake of it I'll say I've been totally wrong about this whole subject on the costume. Just to hear your answer about this one quesiton(Vaders' voice)! Which by the way is no small detail, his voice is a MAJOR detail, and a major tool that expresses his evil and forboding nature!
Oh and Bigbarada if you respond to this one that you really don't care, than no your not a real SW fan(do I believe that No, or else you wouldn't have been on these forumsa for all this time) But, how can anyone with any love of these movies just blindly except: EpIII Cool Vader Voice... EpIV is he talking into a tin can hhmm?, EpV Oh he's got his cool voice back, EpVI cool he still has it... gee I wonder why it sounded so funny in EpIV. Oh golly gee whitikers I guess we all know ole georgey boy knows what he is doing! Hey Stilla this one's for you brother... ready... :rolleyes:

Actually I was just commenting on how silly it is to claim someone is not a true Star Wars fan if they are not a nit-picky over details as you are.

About Vader's voice, the difference is not really enough for me to notice, but that might change when I hear Ep3's no doubt high quality audio, then ANH's low-quality audio. How do I justify/rationalize/explain it? I don't. I just keep in mind that ANH was made over 25 years prior to Ep3 and thus the filmmaking technology wasn't at the same level. No need to try and conjur up some convoluted "in-galaxy" explanation. These are all movies and I enjoy them as movies, not as "windows to another world" or whatever.

I just want to enjoy the story (such as it is) and not flip out over the details. For me, Star Wars is a hobby, nothing more, so it shouldn't be a source of stress in my life. Thus, by not sweating over trivialities, it never is.

The 'Xir
07-30-2004, 02:50 PM
You know I had to laugh while reading alot of your comments in response to mine and stillas arguments, because Alot of times I'm usually saying those same things to him, especially about not being so technical and just enjoying the movie your watching for the fun of it, I'm sure he can remember a couple conversations we've had like that. However in this argument about Vaders costume/mask and voice, I don't see this as being technical but just common sense in regards to building continuity.
However, maybe I'm not being fair. I mean I'm not in the film industry but I still know how a simple story line is constructed and how to build continuity. However I'm a little older now and maybe it's my age, I guess I don't remember how I used to enter a theatre at 16 or 17 and definitley not at 12. But even to this day I like to think that once I've entered a theatre and taken my seat, I'm able to suspend all reality and just let myself be enveloped by the movie I'm watching(even a crappy one) and let my imagination take over. However If something comes into play that just doesn't make sense and is never explained anywhere within the movie itself or in a latter sequel, I know what my reaction would be, 'cause I've said it before with other movies, "What the F', that was dumber than s***"!
So once again maybe I'm not being fair to some of our younger readers here. Maybe what seems to be common sense to me, isn't for other people maybe they just haven't experienced that aspect of movie making yet, or just haven't learned how to easily recognize these factors within a movie! So for that I apologize. But, all in all, I think we all know we are ALL still going to be standing in line on May 19th 2005, and are going to love that experience no matter what we think of the film afterwards, and that is the real reaon we are ALL here in this little community we have made for ourselves! And for that I thank you!

ThanX!!! The 'Xir and MTFBWY...Always!

:kiss: AWWW let the love fest begin :kiss:
:cry: **sniff** **sniff** I'm going back to my life now, 'cause this bounty hunter has some old debts he's gotta pay off! ;) 'Till next time! :p

The 'Xir
07-30-2004, 02:54 PM
Just so you know Bigbarada, my last post was just a general post and not in response to your last one which I now just read. Figured I say something just in case if you thought it was!

Mr. JabbaJohnL
08-10-2004, 01:02 PM
Oh! I just heard about this over at Rebelscum. Apparently there will be a new scene incorporated into DVD version of The Empire Strikes Back.

INTERIOR: DARTH VADER'S STAR DESTROYER -- CLOSET

Darth Vader is standing in front of a row of ten slightly different masks. Above them is several costumes, some with the inner cape over the shoulder armor, some with it under the armor. Captain Piett walks slowly up behind him.

PIETT: You requested my presence, lord?

VADER: Yes, captain. I need you to help me decide which costume I will wear today. I wasn't really feeling the getup I was wearing on the Death Star.

PIETT: Might I suggest something where your shoulder armor covers your inner cape, sir?

VADER: Hmm, interesting. That was something I wore over twenty years ago, when I first donned this black armor. Good choice, Captain.

:rolleyes:

Elliejabbapop
08-10-2004, 05:00 PM
Oh! I just heard about this over at Rebelscum. Apparently there will be a new scene incorporated into DVD version of The Empire Strikes Back.

INTERIOR: DARTH VADER'S STAR DESTROYER -- CLOSET

Darth Vader is standing in front of a row of ten slightly different masks. Above them is several costumes, some with the inner cape over the shoulder armor, some with it under the armor. Captain Piett walks slowly up behind him.

PIETT: You requested my presence, lord?

VADER: Yes, captain. I need you to help me decide which costume I will wear today. I wasn't really feeling the getup I was wearing on the Death Star.

PIETT: Might I suggest something where your shoulder armor covers your inner cape, sir?

VADER: Hmm, interesting. That was something I wore over twenty years ago, when I first donned this black armor. Good choice, Captain.

:rolleyes:
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant!!! lol lol lol

bigbarada
08-10-2004, 05:47 PM
Just so you know Bigbarada, my last post was just a general post and not in response to your last one which I now just read. Figured I say something just in case if you thought it was!

That's cool, I wasn't sure just how young you thought I was. ;)

I'm fully aware of discontinuities in the Star Wars films, but there have been so many of them dating back to 1977 that I just don't really give them much thought anymore.

The big ones being:

Han and Luke's clothing just magically reappearing after they get out of their Stormtrooper disguises.

The inconsistencies between the Wampa suit and the Wampa puppet in ESB, even before the Special Edition Wampa was added in.

Wedge suddenly morphing into a completely different person between the Rebel Briefing room and the Death Star Battle in ANH.

Ponda Baba's interchangeable hands (from flippers to furry)

So I do recognize all of them, and I think these changes to Vader's suit and voice are just some more to add to the list and nothing to really get too excited about.

stillakid
08-18-2004, 09:12 AM
Uh, real quick response to these:

I'm fully aware of discontinuities in the Star Wars films, but there have been so many of them dating back to 1977 that I just don't really give them much thought anymore.

The big ones being:

Han and Luke's clothing just magically reappearing after they get out of their Stormtrooper disguises.

The inconsistencies between the Wampa suit and the Wampa puppet in ESB, even before the Special Edition Wampa was added in.

Wedge suddenly morphing into a completely different person between the Rebel Briefing room and the Death Star Battle in ANH.

Ponda Baba's interchangeable hands (from flippers to furry)

So I do recognize all of them, and I think these changes to Vader's suit and voice are just some more to add to the list and nothing to really get too excited about.

The Han and Luke clothes thing is a discrepency but not in the same category as the Vader suit thing. Vader's suit is an issue of continuity in the story timeline. The Armor-to-clothes issue is simply a "convenience" to keep the story moving along. While technically "wrong," it doesn't really affect continuity so much as inspire questions of "where did they keep those clothes anyway?"

If there are any discrepencies between the Wampa shots, they don't matter because A) the changes are so slight that a casual viewer wouldn't be able to really see them, and B) the character is in the film for a grand total of 10 to 20 seconds, certainly not the level of visibility that a major character like Vader has.

Wedge? While he might have been named in the novel, the film never identifies "Wedge" until the battle over the Death Star. There is no discrepency there.

Ponda Baba's hands? See Wampa above.

Slicker
08-18-2004, 01:08 PM
If you really want continuity error then why are the Emperor's robes so new in ROTJ and Yoda's are so beat up? They both wore them what, nearly 40 years before yet Yoda's robes age and the Emperor's magically don't.


In case you missed it this was all sarcasm. This whole Vader costume change is really heated and I never really noticed it until about 5 minutes ago when I first read this thread and I consider myself quite a fan.

Slicker
08-18-2004, 01:11 PM
I also personally watch the movies as just that, movies. Don't get me wrong I love them a Million times more than any other movie but I don't look too hard into them to pick very, very, minor inconsistencies. I'm in total agreeance with bigbarada in that you should watch and enjoy them for what they are.

OC47150
08-18-2004, 01:11 PM
Just a whisker OT, but if you want to talk about continunity problems, just look at the Highlander movies, 1 - 3 in particular. The only thread hooking them together is the McLeod character. The movies are like separate different adventures that disavow anything the previous movie set up.

The 'Xir
08-19-2004, 03:06 AM
I also personally watch the movies as just that, movies. Don't get me wrong I love them a Million times more than any other movie but I don't look too hard into them to pick very, very, minor inconsistencies. I'm in total agreeance with bigbarada in that you should watch and enjoy them for what they are.

I'm also in total agreement with this philosophy! However the problem is, is when something in the story or continuity is thrown in that takes you by suprise that doesn't make sense and gives no explanation as to why it happened like a monkey wrench into the machinery of common sense, it destroys the enjoyment or suspension of reality, of watching an anticipated "Fantasy" movie!
Now for me the whole cloth over the shoulder pads or under issue, isn't as relevant as other discrepencies although I understand where the protesters are comming from. But for me the thing with the voice is an issue! 'Cause if we get that classic sounding vader voice in EpIII, then we hear a crappy tin canny sounding voice in EpIV then it goes back to the classic big booming voice in V and VI, it makes me ask the question..,"what happened"(within context of the story('cause I obviously know that in reality it's an issue of the technology of when the movies were made)).

And any time a story especially a fantasy story, where your imagination should be running wild with blind faith, takes you out of the 'movie moment' back to reality to ask, "why?" someting hapened it 1) ruins the movie experience, and 2) shows a lack of good story writting/telling, which shows me that the people writting it are not caring enough or putting enough thought into the work they are doing!!! Atleast that's how it comes across to me! :neutral:

stillakid
08-19-2004, 10:45 AM
I'm also in total agreement with this philosophy! However the problem is, is when something in the story or continuity is thrown in that takes you by suprise that doesn't make sense and gives no explanation as to why it happened like a monkey wrench into the machinery of common sense, it destroys the enjoyment or suspension of reality, of watching an anticipated "Fantasy" movie!

Well, who doesn't agree with that philosophy as you describe it above? :confused: I think that where the discrepency between audience members comes in regarding their individual tolerances for "letting stuff go." It seems that a huge number of "die-hard" Star Wars fans are extraordinarily forgiving towards "errors" in the saga...much more so than they are for other films. Whereas in the example of ID4, I personally can A)recognize errors and B) accept them and "enjoy the movie for what it is," the difference is that many many Star Wars fans refuse to do "A" (recognize the problems) and think that everything is hunky dory and that others (like me) are just "nit picking." Hardly. But when somebody finds anything that brings them joy or peace (Star Wars, politics, religious belief) they'll defend it to the end and do their utmost to discredit the credibility of the opposition. It's amusing if nothing else. :ermm:

billfremore
08-19-2004, 04:47 PM
Your ID4 reference is very interesting Stilla as I have a similar view to yours (don't worry I won't make it a habit :D) I had to defend that movie many times to other people.

If I like something I'll defend it for the very reasons that I like it.