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View Full Version : Hayden replaces Sebastian... (merged)



JEDIpartner
07-28-2004, 08:21 AM
See it here...!

http://owenward.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ROTJ-2004-HAYDENGHOSTCHANGE.mov

Kidhuman
07-28-2004, 08:38 AM
Bad move IMO.

Beast
07-28-2004, 08:48 AM
Good move IMO.

"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

JEDIpartner
07-28-2004, 08:49 AM
Yeah... I see his point in terms of the lore but I'm gonna miss ol' Sebastian.

I know this was covered in the OT DVDs thread... but I wanted to make this issue a quicker find for people who just wanted to see this.

Beast
07-28-2004, 08:56 AM
I'll miss Sebastian a bit also. But he always looked a bit too old for me anyway. Even in relation to Obi-Wan, given Luke's age. But I really do like the change, to see Anakin redeemed and returned in the force as the good man he once was. Besides, given the fact that Anakin and Padme will likely be reunited in the afterlife, I think it would be only fair that they're reunited the way that they remember each other. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

JEDIpartner
07-28-2004, 08:59 AM
Awww... you old softie, you!

aceguide
07-28-2004, 09:00 AM
I have no problem with this. Contiunuity will help the bridge between the two trilogies.

Exhaust Port
07-28-2004, 09:34 AM
I like the change. What age should Anakin be as a ghost though? I would think it would be as he was when he died but as a whole person.

JEDIpartner
07-28-2004, 10:31 AM
Apparently that age is 22 or 23.

2-1B
07-28-2004, 11:47 AM
I LOVE it ! Couldn't be more pleased with this.
Have Greedo shoot first and the trilogy is nearly perfect. :D

Welcome to the OT, Hayden. :)

bigbarada
07-28-2004, 12:21 PM
Surprisingly (especially to myself) I'm not upset about this at all. I think it's actually cool. :eek:

I've been talking to a few young kids about Star Wars and most of them really look up to Anakin based on Ep2. So I think that his turn in Ep3 will be especially traumatic for them. So, this is a nice thing to do in consideration of the kids who are experiencing Star Wars for the first time with the prequels.

The 'Xir
07-28-2004, 03:32 PM
I swear you all have gone Freakin' Insane!!! How old are you people? did any of you see RotJ in the theatres? This cannot be real, if it is... UUUGGGHHH!!! GEORGE STOP F'IN WITH THIS SAGA!!!
There is no sense or ryhme or reason to make a change like this it's ludicrious, it makes no sense! GOD D*****!!! This really ****es me off! UUUGGHHH!!!! :mad:

I mean Yoda is as old as he is as a ghost because that's the age he died at, same goes for Ben, so why would Anakins spirit come back younger! It makes no sense!!!! grrrrrrrrr. I swear if there's stupid crap like this in EpIII I'm off Star Wars for good! :mad:

Exhaust Port
07-28-2004, 04:51 PM
Well it could be a vision of the jedi the last time they were one with the light side of the force. Both OW and Yoda were lightside Jedi until they died where as Anakin switched at the age they showed.

Yes I'm quite old enough to have seen the OT in the theaters and no I don't see a problem with these tweaks of the movies. If you have such a problem with them then you've had numerous opportunities to buy the OT in its original version over the last 20+ years. There is nothing forcing you to buy this version when you can avoid it and just watch the originals.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
07-28-2004, 04:59 PM
I am in the boat of people who really like this one. I was worried a little bit when I heard about it, but it looks so seamless and cool. As JJB has said, it makes more sense for Anakin to reappear as he once did than as a completely restored old man who should be missing half his body parts. I wonder what happened to his right arm, though? You can't see it but I wonder if he has the robot arm in the afterlife, or what?

I wonder what people will think if they watch the DVDs without prior knowledge of Anakin's look in ROTS? "Who's that long-haired guy? I think it's Luke's dad, but he has long hair!" :D

Kidhuman
07-28-2004, 09:43 PM
I swear you all have gone Freakin' Insane!!! How old are you people? did any of you see RotJ in the theatres? This cannot be real, if it is... UUUGGGHHH!!! GEORGE STOP F'IN WITH THIS SAGA!!!
There is no sense or ryhme or reason to make a change like this it's ludicrious, it makes no sense! GOD D*****!!! This really ****es me off! UUUGGHHH!!!! :mad:

I mean Yoda is as old as he is as a ghost because that's the age he died at, same goes for Ben, so why would Anakins spirit come back younger! It makes no sense!!!! grrrrrrrrr. I swear if there's stupid crap like this in EpIII I'm off Star Wars for good! :mad:


Are me and you the only two who hate this move? This pushed the decision for me not to buy this new set. I swear, next thing we know, Ewan will be replacing Luke in the Throne room duel.

stillakid
07-28-2004, 11:09 PM
Are me and you the only two who hate this move? This pushed the decision for me not to buy this new set. I swear, next thing we know, Ewan will be replacing Luke in the Throne room duel.

Nope, I'm with you too. This is really...no, REALLY, stupid. It looks really dumb for starters and as others have mentioned, it makes no sense in terms of how we have previously seen "ghosts" relative to when they died.

I'm not angry or anything. That'd be silly methinks. But I am laughing at it. :D That Lucas has completely lost touch with any sense of creative reality is a forgone conclusion at this point. From here on out, it's just a matter of watching the train wreck and deriving a twisted pleasure to see how bad it can possibly get.

Is it possible to be an enthusiastic anti-fan? :ermm:

Beast
07-28-2004, 11:37 PM
Are you talking about ghosts in lore and tales, or just the ghost of Ben? Because I don't know about you, but Ben didn't come back as some bi-sected man. And he also never fell to the darkside, and became more machine than man. If a spirit can appear full in the form they were in before they died, who's to say that they can't manifest in an earlier form. Yoda said that they're luminous beings, not crude matter.

It fits in perfectly with ghosts in lore and legends, who when finally freed from the thing that keeps them contained from passing on, they don't manifest as hidious monsters who have been trapped by said things. Similar to how Anakin's force spirit was trapped by what ammounts to a dead corpse, kept alive by the Dark Side, Hate, and a life support system. Who finally freed, manifested as the Jedi he once was.

It all depends on how you wish to view things. Anakin is restored whole, and the last time he was hole both in body and spirit was when he was a young man. In fact, it makes Obi-Wan less of a liar with his 'Different Points of View' dealie. Luke's father ceased to be Anakin Skywalker, and becamse Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man that was Luke's father was destroyed. In the light side of the force, Anakin died and was replaced by Darth Vader, in the Dark Side.

There was still embers of the good man that Anakin once was in Darth Vader. But he didn't act on them. He wanted the Emperor destroyed and personal power with his new Apprentice Luke Skywalker. Only when Luke's was dieing, and calling for his father did the good in Darth Vader truely be reborn. He took a step that he could have never made on his own, simply out of the love for a son he bearly knew.

He made the supreme sacrifice any father would make for their son. And the good man who had been Anakin returned. But without his lust for power, his hatred, and his suit he couldn't survive. So he passed on, becoming one with the force. And when he manifested again in the force, he was restored to the good man he once was. To likely at some point be reunited with Padme in the afterlife. It's a basic story of redemption, and I think it's much more powerful to see the young and vibrant Anakin next to Obi-Wan and Yoda, no longer corrupted by the Dark Side. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
07-29-2004, 12:19 AM
Are you talking about ghosts in lore and tales, or just the ghost of Ben? Because I don't know about you, but Ben didn't come back as some bi-sected man. And he also never fell to the darkside, and became more machine than man. If a spirit can appear full in the form they were in before they died, who's to say that they can't manifest in an earlier form. Yoda said that they're luminous beings, not crude matter.

It fits in perfectly with ghosts in lore and legends, who when finally freed from the thing that keeps them contained from passing on, they don't manifest as hidious monsters who have been trapped by said things. Similar to how Anakin's force spirit was trapped by what ammounts to a dead corpse, kept alive by the Dark Side, Hate, and a life support system. Who finally freed, manifested as the Jedi he once was.

It all depends on how you wish to view things. Anakin is restored whole, and the last time he was hole both in body and spirit was when he was a young man. In fact, it makes Obi-Wan less of a liar with his 'Different Points of View' dealie. Luke's father ceased to be Anakin Skywalker, and becamse Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man that was Luke's father was destroyed. In the light side of the force, Anakin died and was replaced by Darth Vader, in the Dark Side.

There was still embers of the good man that Anakin once was in Darth Vader. But he didn't act on them. He wanted the Emperor destroyed and personal power with his new Apprentice Luke Skywalker. Only when Luke's was dieing, and calling for his father did the good in Darth Vader truely be reborn. He took a step that he could have never made on his own, simply out of the love for a son he bearly knew.

He made the supreme sacrifice any father would make for their son. And the good man who had been Anakin returned. But without his lust for power, his hatred, and his suit he couldn't survive. So he passed on, becoming one with the force. And when he manifested again in the force, he was restored to the good man he once was. To likely at some point be reunited with Padme in the afterlife. It's a basic story of redemption, and I think it's much more powerful to see the young and vibrant Anakin next to Obi-Wan and Yoda, no longer corrupted by the Dark Side. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

You make a number of valid points, however wasn't the Sebastian version (at the very end) also "Anakin" as much as the younger "Hayden" version was? Afterall, he was supposedly redeemed, was he not? So by your way of thinking above, the final version of Anakin (Sebastian) is not redeemed at all necessitating the return to a younger version.

However, it could also successfully be argued that the Hayden version isn't a valid representation of a "good" Anakin anyway. The only "true" goody-twoshoes Anakin was the Jake version, therefore if Lucas wants to play this game and do it successfully, it shouldn't be Hayden standing there at all. It should be Jake (I look like a younger fatter version of Hayden) Lloyd.

So, big surprise, I'll continue to disagree with your assessment primarily because the numero uno point of the final "death sequence" was to show that Darth Vader had died and Anakin was redeemed. To remove the Sebastian version from the final "ghost lineup" spits in the face of that momentous event and suggests that Anakin wasn't redeemed at all and Luke's efforts were ultimately for naught because his father's soul was still damned to hell at the end of the day.

MASTER_JEDI
07-29-2004, 12:40 AM
If you don't have them already, get the original movies on DVD, because from all the posts I've read from you, you don't WANT to like these movies:)

Taking shots at Lucas seems to be the "in" thing anymore :crazed: I can't stand any other movies of GL, and don't know the man, but I'm not going to deny myself of entertainment because I think it will make me less of a fan by "cheating" on the original movies that I saw as a kid :rolleyes:

btw I'm not talking about anyone here, just from the people i've talked to here. The best one was late last year..

"yeah I have that Lucas, Han should shoot first!" at a TRU with 3 other SW fans..

He knew it was the cool thing to do on the 'playground', yet he did not understand why, just wanted to be part of the in crowd lol.

If you don't like these changes, awesome, get the bootlegs(yet you can't tell me you won't run out on the 21st anyway). Everyone should be happy this way:)..

Beast
07-29-2004, 12:46 AM
No, because the Sebastian Anakin was the 'body' that Anakin was locked into. Just without the missing limbs and horrible scars. If a ghost can manifest in a old body with limbs that he hasn't had for decades, who's to say that a ghost can't manifest in a body before his fall to the dark side. Saying that a ghost is confined to the limitations of the flesh, even though he seems to regain limbs and loose horrible scars and burns is crazy talk. Why is one extreme worse than the other?

And I disagree with the assesment that Hayden wasn't a "good" representation of Anakin. He made bad choices, but he repented for them. Such as the killing of the Tuskens who led to his mother's death. He repents to Padme, but he has made his first steps twords the dark side. But it's not taken him over yet. It's a clear and present danger on his soul, but he's still a good man. Hate doesn't rule his life.

Yes, Anakin was redeemed. But his force spirit died a long time ago. Anakin Skywalker died when he fell to the Dark Side. And then was reborn when the embers deep in Vader were reached by his son's cries. But the force spirit was still for all intents and purposes dead. And his spirit didn't age 25 years or so in the few minutes before the dead flesh that was Anakin finally died. It doesn't spit in the face of anything, in fact it makes his redemption in the force all the more clear. He's restored as the good man he one was, not some old man who he's never known.

It's classic redemption imagery. The restoration of the tortured spirit into it's good form, after being freed from the curse that constrained it. Except the curse takes a different form in this story, being basically what ammounts to a walking and talking corpse of a good man, who no longer posesses his moral side. Who is kept alive by a lust for power, hatred, the Emperor's will, and a life support suit. Think of it as someone in a coma for 25 years, who finally get the plug pulled. When they pass on into the Spirit realm, would it make sense that they are restored to a point where they last remember their true self. Or would they be some old feeble man, that they have no knowledge of. If anything, it's much more powerful. And if Anakin was damned to some so-called hell, he wouldn't manifest in the force anyway. Blue-Glowie Spirits are a Jedi Ability. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

MASTER_JEDI
07-29-2004, 01:20 AM
No, because the Sebastian Anakin was the 'body' that Anakin was locked into. Just without the missing limbs and horrible scars. If a ghost can manifest in a old body with limbs that he hasn't had for decades, who's to say that a ghost can't manifest in a body before his fall to the dark side. Saying that a ghost is confined to the limitations of the flesh, even though he seems to regain limbs and loose horrible scars and burns is crazy talk. Why is one extreme worse than the other?

And I disagree with the assesment that Hayden wasn't a "good" representation of Anakin. He made bad choices, but he repented for them. Such as the killing of the Tuskens who led to his mother's death. He repents to Padme, but he has made his first steps twords the dark side. But it's not taken him over yet. It's a clear and present danger on his soul, but he's still a good man. Hate doesn't rule his life.

Yes, Anakin was redeemed. But his force spirit died a long time ago. Anakin Skywalker died when he fell to the Dark Side. And then was reborn when the embers deep in Vader were reached by his son's cries. But the force spirit was still for all intents and purposes dead. And his spirit didn't age 25 years or so in the few minutes before the dead flesh that was Anakin finally died. It doesn't spit in the face of anything, in fact it makes his redemption in the force all the more clear. He's restored as the good man he one was, not some old man who he's never known.

It's classic redemption imagery. The restoration of the tortured spirit into it's good form, after being freed from the curse that constrained it. Except the curse takes a different form in this story, being basically what ammounts to a walking and talking corpse of a good man, who no longer posesses his moral side. Who is kept alive by a lust for power, hatred, the Emperor's will, and a life support suit. Think of it as someone in a coma for 25 years, who finally get the plug pulled. When they pass on into the Spirit realm, would it make sense that they are restored to a point where they last remember their true self. Or would they be some old feeble man, that they have no knowledge of. If anything, it's much more powerful. And if Anakin was damned to some so-called hell, he wouldn't manifest in the force anyway. Blue-Glowie Spirits are a Jedi Ability. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks


Not sure how you worded that so perfect, but you hit dead on with everything.

"It doesn't spit in the face of anything, in fact it makes his redemption in the force all the more clear. He's restored as the good man he one was, not some old man who he's never known."

VERY well said.

2-1B
07-29-2004, 01:25 AM
Mark my words:

kidhuman WILL buy this DVD set.

MASTER_JEDI
07-29-2004, 06:07 AM
Mark my words:

kidhuman WILL buy this DVD set.

They ALL will:)..

And who could blame them. No matter how dead set you are on not liking these new versions, why miss out on the HOURS of special features? I bet the features will at least run as long as the movies, most of never seen before footage I'm guessing. Why miss out? Because your pouting and trying to prove your point? lol, sorry but, that won't work. That bad bad man Lucas will never know John whatever did not buy this set, because regardless of what ANYONE thinks, this set WILL be a huge seller lol..

I'm not crazy about some scenes in AOTC, like Ani and Padme on the grass, 3PO in the droid factory, and so on, but I was not going to act stupid and miss out on all the scenes I DID like by not buying the DVD for my collection :cool:..

Heck there is even a scene I would love to see added to Empire that would make most fans cringe. We never see the Empire arrive on the Hoth system, so I think it would be awesome to see ships carrying the AT-AT walkers in(like E2), AND see some Republic Gunships(updated of course) bringing in Vader and the troops right before we hear the "Impirial troops have entered the base" I just have a cool image of a view panning up and seeing Vader in his pose, hands on his hips, with troops behind him looking out as the gunship lands.

InsaneJediGirl
07-29-2004, 08:16 AM
I dont like the change.Its a bad move to delete Shaw out to put Hayden in just to "bridge the gap".Who cares about the gap,we all know what happens.

stillakid
07-29-2004, 08:35 AM
No, because the Sebastian Anakin was the 'body' that Anakin was locked into. Just without the missing limbs and horrible scars. If a ghost can manifest in a old body with limbs that he hasn't had for decades, who's to say that a ghost can't manifest in a body before his fall to the dark side. Saying that a ghost is confined to the limitations of the flesh, even though he seems to regain limbs and loose horrible scars and burns is crazy talk. Why is one extreme worse than the other?

And I disagree with the assesment that Hayden wasn't a "good" representation of Anakin. He made bad choices, but he repented for them. Such as the killing of the Tuskens who led to his mother's death. He repents to Padme, but he has made his first steps twords the dark side. But it's not taken him over yet. It's a clear and present danger on his soul, but he's still a good man. Hate doesn't rule his life.

Yes, Anakin was redeemed. But his force spirit died a long time ago. Anakin Skywalker died when he fell to the Dark Side. And then was reborn when the embers deep in Vader were reached by his son's cries. But the force spirit was still for all intents and purposes dead. And his spirit didn't age 25 years or so in the few minutes before the dead flesh that was Anakin finally died. It doesn't spit in the face of anything, in fact it makes his redemption in the force all the more clear. He's restored as the good man he one was, not some old man who he's never known.

It's classic redemption imagery. The restoration of the tortured spirit into it's good form, after being freed from the curse that constrained it. Except the curse takes a different form in this story, being basically what ammounts to a walking and talking corpse of a good man, who no longer posesses his moral side. Who is kept alive by a lust for power, hatred, the Emperor's will, and a life support suit. Think of it as someone in a coma for 25 years, who finally get the plug pulled. When they pass on into the Spirit realm, would it make sense that they are restored to a point where they last remember their true self. Or would they be some old feeble man, that they have no knowledge of. If anything, it's much more powerful. And if Anakin was damned to some so-called hell, he wouldn't manifest in the force anyway. Blue-Glowie Spirits are a Jedi Ability. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Unbelievably, I liked what you said here. :) It does make sense on some level. However, by still removing the Sebastian version essentially says that he wasn't redeemed at that point. And no matter how much Lucas might want us to believe that Hayden-Anakin hadn't "turned" yet, he is still essentially a whiny crybaby ******* throughout AOTC. Is that the "state of mind" that the ghost is returning to? Old Sebastian was far more kind looking and at peace than Hayden-version ever appeared to be. This is still a big mistake.

stillakid
07-29-2004, 08:53 AM
If you don't have them already, get the original movies on DVD, because from all the posts I've read from you, you don't WANT to like these movies:)

Taking shots at Lucas seems to be the "in" thing anymore :crazed: I can't stand any other movies of GL, and don't know the man, but I'm not going to deny myself of entertainment because I think it will make me less of a fan by "cheating" on the original movies that I saw as a kid :rolleyes:

btw I'm not talking about anyone here, just from the people i've talked to here. The best one was late last year..

"yeah I have that Lucas, Han should shoot first!" at a TRU with 3 other SW fans..

He knew it was the cool thing to do on the 'playground', yet he did not understand why, just wanted to be part of the in crowd lol.

If you don't like these changes, awesome, get the bootlegs(yet you can't tell me you won't run out on the 21st anyway). Everyone should be happy this way:)..


Interesting post. You're saying that everyone is complaining merely because everyone else is. Hmm? But in that scenario, didn't there need to be a catalyst of some kind to start it off? Maybe somebody "out there" had a personal vendetta, so like a twisted cult or religion, his "bagging on Lucas" just grew out of control until even innocent toy collectors in a random TRU were parroting that hatred of Lucas without even knowing why.

Sound plausible to you? :rolleyes:

"Complaining" about the new movies has nothing to do with us feeling like we're "cheating on the originals." That's a moronic statement. The original "films" could care less if we're loyal to them or not. I could yell, scream, curse, and step on them and they still wouldn't give a rats arse. They'd just lay there.

The new films, the changes in the old, and Lucas are being complained about because people don't like what he's been producing lately. His ability to tell a story is weaker than it used to be, which brings up another question. You say that you don't like anything else he's done. So you hated American Graffiti? Okay, but why don't you force yourself to watch it anyway? You know, "enjoy it for what it is" and all? Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

And I can guarantee you two things. One is that I honestly forgot that the 21st was the release date, and two, that I won't be "running out" to get them. I'll throw it on my Xmas list for Santa. Maybe it'll be on sale by then. :)

Kidhuman
07-29-2004, 10:06 AM
Mark my words:

kidhuman WILL buy this DVD set.

Nope, just bought the originals on DVD, dont need this umpteenth subset. :D

And this isnt Blatant lies.

And I did get the SE's, but never opened them until my kids wanted to watch them. I can not stand these horrid changes. I am suprised he isnt putting them in the theatres first before release to make a ton of money that way as well.

Kidhuman
07-29-2004, 10:10 AM
And I can guarantee you two things. One is that I honestly forgot that the 21st was the release date, and two, that I won't be "running out" to get them. I'll throw it on my Xmas list for Santa. Maybe it'll be on sale by then. :)


You know, with Battlefront coming out the same day pretty much, I would rather spend 50 bucks on that and a figure then a POS set I would never watch. I too wouldnt say no to an X-mas gift, but I will not spend my money on this set.

stillakid
07-29-2004, 10:18 AM
You know, with Battlefront coming out the same day pretty much, I would rather spend 50 bucks on that and a figure then a POS set I would never watch. I too wouldnt say no to an X-mas gift, but I will not spend my money on this set.

I preordered the game so I could get the Bikerscout. Don't know if I'll ever play the game. Admittedly, that's sick. :crazed:

2-1B
07-29-2004, 10:42 AM
You know, with Battlefront coming out the same day pretty much, I would rather spend 50 bucks on that and a figure then a POS set I would never watch. I too wouldnt say no to an X-mas gift, but I will not spend my money on this set.

Ohhhhhhhh, so you'll let someone else waste their money ? ;)

Why would someone want such a POS for a gift anyway ?

"Hey mom, I thought Gigli totally sucked but if you want to get it for me at Xmas, I'll take it."

:crazed:

Kidhuman
07-29-2004, 10:51 AM
I would take it only because it is SW, but I would never let them see the inside of my DVD player

bigbarada
07-29-2004, 11:29 AM
My question for the people who hate this change and say it makes no sense; would it have been better if Lucas had also replaced Alec Guiness with Ewan McGregor and used the Ep2 version of Yoda?

I grew up with Star Wars and was ten years old when ROTJ premiered; but as a lifelong Star Wars fan, I just don't really see this as such a big deal. Seeing the entire saga in order and keeping in mind that Anakin is now the star of the show, I personally think it makes more sense this way.

So don't go around questioning peoples' "loyalty" to Star Wars just because they like this idea.

Kidhuman
07-29-2004, 11:37 AM
My question for the people who hate this change and say it makes no sense; would it have been better if Lucas had also replaced Alec Guiness with Ewan McGregor and used the Ep2 version of Yoda?

Because there was nothing wrong with the scene to begin with. It was fine, Anakin was older and that is his proper age. Why send him back to being the "Hayden" character. It is a ridiculous move and ranks second to Greedo shooting first in my eyes.



I grew up with Star Wars and was ten years old when ROTJ premiered; but as a lifelong Star Wars fan, I just don't really see this as such a big deal. Seeing the entire saga in order and keeping in mind that Anakin is now the star of the show, I personally think it makes more sense this way.

So don't go around questioning peoples' "loyalty" to Star Wars just because they like this idea.

I aint. We all have different opinions but I feel it should be Sebastian all the way. After all, there is that 20 year age gap.

bigbarada
07-29-2004, 11:49 AM
Because there was nothing wrong with the scene to begin with. It was fine, Anakin was older and that is his proper age. Why send him back to being the "Hayden" character. It is a ridiculous move and ranks second to Greedo shooting first in my eyes.

I aint. We all have different opinions but I feel it should be Sebastian all the way. After all, there is that 20 year age gap.

I think the scene was fine before the change also and I think it is fine now. I just can't bring myself to really care either way.

My comment about the questioning of loyalty was mostly directed at the Xir. And I'm pretty sure he was just ranting anyway.

But then again with whats going on in my real life right now, I just can't seem to get overly excited over some stupid movie.

El Chuxter
07-29-2004, 12:25 PM
I've said before, and I have a feeling I'll say again: storywise, this doesn't bother me.

But it's a huge slap in the face to the memory of a great actor and unnecessary.

I'll buy the DVDs, as I can accept they're the "true" versions. The guy made 'em, he can do what he wants. But the number of changes I'm hearing about have ensured I will track down bootlegs of the original and SE versions. And that's money Lucas could've had to swim in in his money bin or whatever, which is going to someone else.

Tick off the fans and don't give them what they as for? Bad business sense, if you ask me.

Jay86
07-29-2004, 12:34 PM
Too bad theres not a way to choose between having both the old scene and this new one. I like them both personally. If only there was a way to go into the DVD and select what scene will run at the end of the movie, then the Sebastian-supporters and the Hayden-supporters would both get their way. Come to think of it, they should just try that with the Greedo scene as well. Before you watch any of the three movies, go through the scene selection screne, just like you can most any DVD, and there'd be an alternate scene option. Select it, it'd be inserted into the film, and whalah, Greedo gets shot first and Sebastian is there at the end of ROTJ. Dont like it? Go back through and select the first option. The best of both worlds. One can dream ;)

stillakid
07-29-2004, 04:48 PM
Ohhhhhhhh, so you'll let someone else waste their money ? ;)

Why would someone want such a POS for a gift anyway ?

"Hey mom, I thought Gigli totally sucked but if you want to get it for me at Xmas, I'll take it."

:crazed:

Because I have a table with a wobbly leg and the Episode I and II DVD's I have aren't quite tall enough to fix it. I'll probably need at least an Episode III, but I figure I can streamline the whole thing with a box set of the SuperNifty OT DVD's. :D

JEDIpartner
07-29-2004, 08:16 PM
My partner, a casual SW fan (and not one of the PT), doesn't find this change to be so jarring. He thinks it makes sense and helps the bigger picture. He thinks this is one of the few things Lucas has done RIGHT since he started tinkering with the OT.

Knightfall
08-01-2004, 12:31 PM
When I first clicked on this thread, I had this horrible vision of Hayden done up in scars and old-age makeup underneath DV's helmet...I suppose his replacing Sebastian Shaw as Anakin's spirit is slightly less offensive. Still, this is just another sterling reason why I'm going to pass on the official DVD versions of Episodes IV, V, and VI. I hesitate to call them the "original trilogy" because they are no longer the movies I grew up watching. As far as I'm concerned, the Star Wars saga ended in 1983...the SEs, prequels, and all the other stuff that's come down the tubes since then doesn't hold any place with me. They are Star Wars in name, but not in spirit. If only we could go back in time and bring 1977 George Lucas to the present, so that he could slap some sense into his 2004 incarnation...

TheDarthVader
08-01-2004, 02:22 PM
I like the change. Being "The Darth Vader", I say the change is fine. :D
What is the big deal? It's not life or death. (Pardon the pun). It's a little change to a film. JEEZ. Who cares? Lucas is in control of his own films. We aren't...so just enjoy them! If you don't like the changes, buy the original original OT and enjoy those.

B.
TDV

darthvyn
08-01-2004, 05:56 PM
my question is: where the hell did this guy get this footage? are we sure it is actually legit? and where did everyone else hear about this? i must be slipping in my old age.

as someone who just rewound his copy of ROJ a couple of minutes ago, i can say... meh. i don't really care either way. i think the change is all that necessary, but i don't think it's a big deal.

JediTricks
08-01-2004, 08:02 PM
I still don't see how Luke, much less the audience, will be able to recognize this long-haired kid.

MASTER_JEDI
08-01-2004, 08:38 PM
I still don't see how Luke, much less the audience, will be able to recognize this long-haired kid.


How did Luke, much less the audience, recognize the old smiling grey headed guy beside Ben and Yoda in the original that we had never even seen before? Common sence maybe? He sure did not look like the pasty bald guy under the helmet to me lol.

JediTricks
08-01-2004, 08:57 PM
True, and as a kid I did have some difficulty seeing the connection that first time, but at least they're the same actor, they share the same facial features (nose, mouth, eyes anyway) - this new one isn't the same age (and I really don't buy that "well, this was from when before he was bad" argument because the kid was showing dark tendencies long before this, before he was a Jedi even!), looks nothing like the Anakin under the helmet (who WAS Anakin at those points in ROTJ), and has no connection to Luke at all except he's the 3rd guy standing there. What if it had been Qui-Gon standing there instead, would Luke still be thinking it's his dad then?

MASTER_JEDI
08-01-2004, 09:29 PM
True, and as a kid I did have some difficulty seeing the connection that first time, but at least they're the same actor, they share the same facial features (nose, mouth, eyes anyway) - this new one isn't the same age (and I really don't buy that "well, this was from when before he was bad" argument because the kid was showing dark tendencies long before this, before he was a Jedi even!), looks nothing like the Anakin under the helmet (who WAS Anakin at those points in ROTJ), and has no connection to Luke at all except he's the 3rd guy standing there. What if it had been Qui-Gon standing there instead, would Luke still be thinking it's his dad then?

If Qui-Gon would have been standing there, yeah I do think he would have thought that. But wonder if, being a Jedi Luke could feel it though? I don't read the EU, just love the movies, so I'm not too sure if you can "feel" or sence things from spirits.

But Luke did say many times" I can feel the good in you", so what if that same feeling would come from the spirit? I mean it was not Vader's fleash and Metal that Luke felt, but it was Anakin, and his metal body would not be where the good Luke felt would come from, but in his very soul.

I may be way off, but I really do think it was the right move. My son now says, "But that's not Anakin" and the end of Jedi, so for the new generation of fans, I think this is the right thing to do.

stillakid
08-01-2004, 10:15 PM
my question is: where the hell did this guy get this footage? are we sure it is actually legit? and where did everyone else hear about this? i must be slipping in my old age.

I showed this to a couple of friends of mine and they raised the question of authenticity. Where did this come from? Why would Lucasfilm let something like this out? While I wouldn't put this kind of nonsense past Georgy, I am beginning to think that perhaps this clip is just a fanmade item.

JEDIpartner
08-02-2004, 08:08 AM
The question is, fan-made... but with what footage of Hayden Christensen? We need to start there before we start claiming fan-made.

JEDIpartner
08-02-2004, 08:13 AM
I still don't see how Luke, much less the audience, will be able to recognize this long-haired kid.
Being a film SERIES and this one being #6, it would be assumed that you would have watched the previous 5 films. It's not like they keep reintroducing characters in Happy Potter everytime the next one comes out. You just get "this is Harry", "This is Ron", "This is Hermione", etc... If you haven't seen the previous films, it's not the filmmaker's fault that you don't know who the characters are. At the same turn, a person who wouldn't understand the Hayden as Anakin spirit thing probably wouldn't understand "the black guy who lowers his mask in Jabba's palace" or who Han Solo is or why they are risking their lives for him.

Yeah... people are stupid-- but not that kinda stupid. :D

Dark Marble
08-02-2004, 09:53 AM
I guess the final scene would make more sense to me if Hayden completely took the place of Sebastian in ROTJ. If this final spirit scene is authentic, maybe we are only seeing a small glimpse into the changes that were made. Maybe Sebastian is completely out.

I would love to see the original uncut versions of the first three movies released. It would be a huge nod to the fans (including myself) that grew up with the original Star Wars movies. I would love a copy of the originals, the special editions, and the newest versions coming out in September.

All of that said, the point of view I have come to see Star Wars in is that Star Wars is a mythology. Lucas has said this many times, and it focuses the lens that I view these movies in. Think about it this way, mythology is often obscured in the telling, sometimes contradictory, and from beginning to end some of the pieces may not always fit. However, the essence of the story remains.

So, for me even though the telling of the stories has changed a little bit the essence of the movies is still there and very strong and I will reserve my final judgment for the new DVD's being releases in September. The special editions didn't change my opinion or my nostalgia for the Star Wars movies, and I don't think these "newly tweaked" versions will change my opinion either. If this new scene is real, I don't mind it.

Beast
08-02-2004, 10:24 AM
As for the autenticity of the pictures and videos popping up. These clips and videos are from burns from a leaked copy of the films. ROTJ hit first, and then ESB and ANH. Sebastian Shaw still plays the Anakin in the suit, but does not appear in ghost form.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Dark Marble
08-02-2004, 10:39 AM
Good enough for me. On the topic of replacing actors, since the replacing of Sebastian Shaw is not welcomed by some, is the fact that the "holographic emperor" in Empire Strikes Back is being replaced by Ian McDiarmid also bothering Original Trilogy fans? I liked this idea but I would like to hear from others on this chage as well.

stillakid
08-02-2004, 11:34 AM
Well, since Lucas is in the "replace" mode, I wonder if he could replace the story mess of the Prequels with an actual plot that makes sense. :sur:

JediTricks
08-02-2004, 08:48 PM
If Qui-Gon would have been standing there, yeah I do think he would have thought that. But wonder if, being a Jedi Luke could feel it though? I don't read the EU, just love the movies, so I'm not too sure if you can "feel" or sence things from spirits.I don't think we've ever seen Luke sense Obi-Wan's spirit without hearing the voice first, but it's not impossible I suppose. Still, since Luke is our conduit to the scene, that is what is being communicated to us, the audience, and since he doesn't say "aw dad" we have to be able to recognize him visually.


But Luke did say many times" I can feel the good in you", so what if that same feeling would come from the spirit? I mean it was not Vader's fleash and Metal that Luke felt, but it was Anakin, and his metal body would not be where the good Luke felt would come from, but in his very soul. See my previous response, it covers a lot of my response to that. Also, I'd ask why, if Luke can feel the good in Anakin's soul, it manifests itself at the end of the film as Ep 3 Anakin rather than TPM, AOTC or ROTJ Anakin. If Luke says there is good in the character, that's in the "now" right, so why would the visage of that be from another time period if it's still in him to this date?



Being a film SERIES and this one being #6, it would be assumed that you would have watched the previous 5 films. There aren't actually 5 previous films, there are 2 previous films and 3 sequels that are merely set in an earlier setting. Despite Lucas adding the term "prequel" to our lexicon, Episodes 1, 2, and 3 may have stories earlier than the OT but they are sequels, without a time-machine they could be nothing else. The Godfather pt 2 is a sequel, just because its story is partially set before the first film doesn't mean it actually came before, history shows us which film came first.

But throwing all that argument aside, I submit that it is still a stand-alone film. This isn't like the LOTR cinematic trilogy where they made 1 long movie and cut it into pieces, ROTJ was made separately from ANH and ESB and made to ensure that it would appeal to audiences even if they hadn't seen the previous 2.



At the same turn, a person who wouldn't understand the Hayden as Anakin spirit thing probably wouldn't understand "the black guy who lowers his mask in Jabba's palace" or who Han Solo is or why they are risking their lives for him. But both of these things are clearly explained in the film, Lando's character is exposed to any new audience as a hero soon after we see him lower his mask and after Luke tells Han to stick close to Chewie and Lando, and who Han is in relation to the other heroes is explained throughout the film by their actions - not to mention the opening crawl explaining he's Luke's friend in the clutches of an evil gangster. The film does initiate these characters to newcomers, but it won't be able to do so with Hayden now will it.



I guess the final scene would make more sense to me if Hayden completely took the place of Sebastian in ROTJ. If this final spirit scene is authentic, maybe we are only seeing a small glimpse into the changes that were made. Maybe Sebastian is completely out. He's being kept, the only change when the mask is removed is that ILM took off Shaw's eyebrows.


All of that said, the point of view I have come to see Star Wars in is that Star Wars is a mythology. Lucas has said this many times, and it focuses the lens that I view these movies in. Think about it this way, mythology is often obscured in the telling, sometimes contradictory, and from beginning to end some of the pieces may not always fit. However, the essence of the story remains. Just because Caesar and the Romans rewrote the Greek myths doesn't mean those original myths ceased to exist. Myths are changed over time through the subtle and sometimes accidental alterations made during retellings of the tale - Lucas' meddling smacks of a dictator revising history to suit his latest take on an issue.


George Lucas barely had a hand in ESB, and let others write and direct much of ROTJ originally; at any time before their release he could have spoken up and made changes since he was their Executive Producer and it was his money, the films were released to the public the way they were with his approval at that time. Lucas was basically the studio, and these decades-later alterations to ESB and ROTJ are studio-style decisions made without need for the consent of the films' actual filmmakers.

JEDIpartner
08-03-2004, 08:21 AM
I suppose another way of looking at the whole Vader/Anakin thing is to approach in a "Beauty and the Beast" way. Vader, the beast, was returned to his old form upon his redemption.

stillakid
08-03-2004, 09:43 AM
I suppose another way of looking at the whole Vader/Anakin thing is to approach in a "Beauty and the Beast" way. Vader, the beast, was returned to his old form upon his redemption.

Yeah but, his old form was a whiny angst ridden pain in the tuckus. Why would he return to that form and not the Leave It to Beaver Goodie Two Shoes Jake version instead?

JEDIpartner
08-03-2004, 10:35 AM
The beast didn't go back to being a child. He reverted back to the his form just as he was before the curse was put on him.

Kidhuman
08-03-2004, 11:46 AM
What curse? Are you posting spoilers? Or just using a "figure of speech"?

bigbarada
08-03-2004, 12:02 PM
The more I think about this change the more it doesn't seem to make sense. If Lucas was going to do this, then why not replace Alec Guiness with Ewan McGregor also?

I guess the morale of this story is, if you are a Jedi, then you want to be sure and die young or else you'll be an old man in the afterlife for eternity. :confused: :stupid:

Exhaust Port
08-03-2004, 12:47 PM
I guess the morale of this story is, if you are a Jedi, then you want to be sure and die young or else you'll be an old man in the afterlife for eternity. :confused: :stupid: Wouldn't that be a bummer. :)

edited due to very, very poor spelling

Kidhuman
08-03-2004, 12:51 PM
The more I think about this change the more it doesn't seem to make sense. If Lucas was going to do this, then why not replace Alec Guiness with Ewan McGregor also?




I have been thinking on this and came to a theory. If you were crippled gnd died, then went to Heaven, you would not be a cripple any longer. Your spirit would be returned to the time when you were able to do everything. Maybe there is some hidden religious message in this Trilogy??? :confused: :beard:

bigbarada
08-03-2004, 02:35 PM
I have been thinking on this and came to a theory. If you were crippled gnd died, then went to Heaven, you would not be a cripple any longer. Your spirit would be returned to the time when you were able to do everything. Maybe there is some hidden religious message in this Trilogy??? :confused: :beard:

Then wouldn't Anakin be returned to a time when he didn't have any cybernetic parts? Thus he should look like he did in Ep2.

My only guess on why they didn't change Obi-Wan was that they would then have to reshoot all of his ghost scenes in ESB and ROTJ.

You can just imagine what Obi-Wan is thinking to himself when Anakin shows up, "Hey, wait a minute! He turns evil and kills millions of people and just because he chucks the Emperor down a hole he gets to be young again? What a rip-off!" :D :D :D

Dark Marble
08-03-2004, 04:39 PM
Just because Caesar and the Romans rewrote the Greek myths doesn't mean those original myths ceased to exist. Myths are changed over time through the subtle and sometimes accidental alterations made during retellings of the tale - Lucas' meddling smacks of a dictator revising history to suit his latest take on an issue.

However, in this case the original author is revising his stories to fit his overall vision. I am very apprehensive about thinking Lucas is revising history while updating his movies. It then strays away from the realms of fiction and sounds like he is tinkering with actual fact. We are still only talking about movies here, and these movies are not even 30 years old yet. Plus the story and the Star Wars vision still rest with him.

We are talking about his stories and his characters, and for future generations he wants these movies to be viewed as a whole not as two separate trilogies. When my children are old enough they will watch Star Wars as a whole. I have my original movies and I can go back to that at any time and view them the way I saw them as a kid. Star Wars belongs to a whole new generation now and that must incorporate three more movies. As original fans we don't have to like it, but there is a good reason for it. Could it have been done better of course, but we still have the originals and they are not erased from history.

JediTricks
08-03-2004, 08:37 PM
I have been thinking on this and came to a theory. If you were crippled gnd died, then went to Heaven, you would not be a cripple any longer. Your spirit would be returned to the time when you were able to do everything. Why would it be returned to a TIME when you were able to do everything? Originally, the film showed that Anakin was returned to a STATE where he is able to do everything, that makes sense to me. What if he lost an arm and a leg at birth, what time period would he be reverted to in the afterlife by your reasoning? Plus, if his spirit is reverted to a previous time, does that mean his memories and personality are too since they are a major part of his spirit? Does ghost Anakin no longer remember anything about the Death Star or killing Obi-Wan or saving his son from the terrible wrath of the Emperor? That doesn't seem very fair to ghost Anakin that he passes into the afterlife yet his spirit is partially dead.


Maybe there is some hidden religious message in this Trilogy??? Then are you suggesting that this tampering is tantamount to Lucas rewriting the bible? ;)




However, in this case the original author is revising his stories to fit his overall vision. I am very apprehensive about thinking Lucas is revising history while updating his movies. It then strays away from the realms of fiction and sounds like he is tinkering with actual fact. We are still only talking about movies here, and these movies are not even 30 years old yet. First, Lucas is the "original author" of ESB and ROTJ in similar fashion to how Paramount is the "original author" of Star Trek - that is to say, they own the rights but did not personally author the films. Lucas didn't direct ESB or the bulk of ROTJ and barely had a hand in the films' writing.

Second, while the stories may be fiction, the movies themselves are cinematic history from when they were originally released and deserve preservation on that merit even if no other.


We are talking about his stories and his characters, and for future generations he wants these movies to be viewed as a whole not as two separate trilogies. Then he should have done a better job from the get-go of integrating the prequels with the OT. Lucas wanted these movies to be about rescuing Leia from Cloud City at one point, does that mean he has to go back and change ANH to be more of a ripof... er, "homage" to The Hidden Fortress?


I have my original movies and I can go back to that at any time and view them the way I saw them as a kid. I dunno about you, but I don't remember the original films premiering already decayed from repeated use and only playable on outdated technology that has inferior picture and sound.


Star Wars belongs to a whole new generation now and that must incorporate three more movies. That seems ridiculous to me, should Coppola after making Godfather 2 have gone back to Godfather 1 and made a bunch of changes so they fit better? No, he made Godfather 2's prequel elements fit with the first film instead; Lucas should have made his prequels better fit the originals, not tamper with the originals just to make up for his shortcomings as a moviemaker.


but we still have the originals and they are not erased from history. That's a large part of what it comes down to. While the originals are not erased from history as of yet, the only viable copies of those originals are already inferior technology and decaying from use and age. In 20 years, the only way to get halfway-decent copies of the originals will be crappy bootlegs made for subquality technology, and at that point Lucas will have erased the originals from history to cover up his prequel mistakes.

Kidhuman
08-03-2004, 09:42 PM
Why would it be returned to a TIME when you were able to do everything? Originally, the film showed that Anakin was returned to a STATE where he is able to do everything, that makes sense to me. What if he lost an arm and a leg at birth, what time period would he be reverted to in the afterlife by your reasoning? Plus, if his spirit is reverted to a previous time, does that mean his memories and personality are too since they are a major part of his spirit? Does ghost Anakin no longer remember anything about the Death Star or killing Obi-Wan or saving his son from the terrible wrath of the Emperor? That doesn't seem very fair to ghost Anakin that he passes into the afterlife yet his spirit is partially dead.

I dont know JT, like I said, a theory. I dont like the move by Lucas. I think it sucks and should have been left alone.



Then are you suggesting that this tampering is tantamount to Lucas rewriting the bible?

Maybe that is his next venture. After he re-writes the OT, he is going to start on the Bible. He is just giving us a preview. :beard:



Then wouldn't Anakin be returned to a time when he didn't have any cybernetic parts? Thus he should look like he did in Ep2.

I dont know. I was just discussing this with Mabs, and we agreed thagt he should be returned to Jake Lloyd image and have him say "YIPPPPEEEEE, its Obi-Wan gand Yoda" :beard:

tagmac
08-19-2004, 08:59 PM
Good enough for me. On the topic of replacing actors, since the replacing of Sebastian Shaw is not welcomed by some, is the fact that the "holographic emperor" in Empire Strikes Back is being replaced by Ian McDiarmid also bothering Original Trilogy fans? I liked this idea but I would like to hear from others on this chage as well.

This is an insult to the fans, and to the late Sebastian Shaw, to have his scene idiotically replaced by Hayden. If Lucas weren't so stubborn, and would give us both the original versions AND the SE's, then I could tolerate it, but this is just plain ridiculous.

As for The Emperor, the difference there is that the Old lady/Clive Revill version from ESB neither looks nor sounds like Ian McDiarmid, who played the Emperor in the same trilogy - it's not like the change is being made from OT to PT. Also, the Emperor is basically the same age in ESB and ROTJ, so this lends more continuity and believability to the character (face it, the ESB Palpy sounds more like a talk show host than some evil dictator).

Incidentally, for all the talk, does anyone even have a picture of this? That first link is dead, and until the DVD's are released, no matter what I hear, I'm gonna hope this turns out to be nothing more than a homemade, fanboy alteration.

Kidhuman
08-19-2004, 09:17 PM
Here is a pic. If you want the entire thing PM me your email addy and I will send it to you.

tagmac
08-19-2004, 10:06 PM
Thanks...that pic is enough. It looks horrible - Hayden has that shady look on his face that STILL looks evil. Sebastian Shaw had that kindly old man look which fit much better with what Anakin had become in the end. Pathetic job by Lucas making this change. :mad:

The 'Xir
09-07-2004, 05:02 AM
Hey, sorry I wasn't around to debate this issue more from my original outlash post but I was sick for about 2weeks and lost track of threads I was involved in! JJB did make some good points although Stilla and Co. countered with some good ones of their own. But for me, (as I stated in another thread) it comes down to preserving the original work that's considered one of the greatest movies/sagas of all time! If Orson Wells was still alive and there were things he didn't like about Citizen Kane, should he be allowed to change it? Would his new and definitive version be accepted as the greatest movie of all time, like the original is now, or would the new one cheapen the accomplishments and vision of the original? IMO, the latter! Just like these new "improvements" are cheapening Lucass' art and vision he accomplished back in '77, '80, and '83!
I didn't mind the ANH:SE because I remember Lucas always talking about regretting not being able to do the Jabba scene 'cause he ran out of time and money. It was something he always wanted to do, and this was behind the scenes stuff we fans growing up with SW were aware of. Heck he actually did shoot the footage(which we obviously know about now), so we knew it was something that was suppossed to be in the movie! That's tollerable change! Heck, I wouldn't even mind the scenes of Luke with Biggs and friends on Tatooine being inserted back in because the scenes were shot for the movie but were later cut for whatever reason.
I don't ever remember Lucas saying he wanted a Jazzy dance number in the middle of RotJ! There's not much else of any of the other changes in any of the SE that I really like or accept! I also see improving the quality of the pictures/color/ and sound as reasonable change especially with the advant of the prequels, because comparing the quality between the 2 trilogies would be like night and day!
However, every new change Lucas does to these movies like replacing lines or actors, totally destroys the sanctity of his original artwork, and actually destorys the magic millions of fans believed in for 20 years. It's the only thing we knew to be true! There were no special ediitons or anything of the sort. We knew Star Wars as Star Wars and that's it. Now it means whatever Geroge wants it to mean, and he has disregarded the fans that have made him a millionaire with the faith we put in him, and his vision for these films! Imagine if no special editions were ever made, what if he made the prequels, and then because of the outdated look of the OT he announced that he was remaking all new versions of the OT with different actors and todays better technology! Would you be upset? I know I sure would be, and in my eyes there is no difference to that type of change and all these scene/actor/and dialogue changes. Not only did he cross a line, he leaped and bounded over this line practically erasing it, like a matte line on a rancor! I mean why not just remake the movies. He's altered them so much, what's to stop him really, why not just redo the movies and make sure you get it right. Obviously he's not satisfied with the originals, so just make new ones! I mean the fans won't care, besides they're his movies he can do what he wants with them!!! Go ahead georgie boy, you have my permission, just go ahead and make all new ones, who cares about that old crap anyways! Please tell me my sarcasm is dripping from your monitors, 'cause I won't stop until it does!!! :frus: :mad:

scruffziller
09-07-2004, 09:11 AM
I think it is a pathetic attempt at tying the 2 trilogies together. They are tied together enough as they are. It seems fake and unwarranted even if GL has a SW lore reason for doing it. He should have just let the OT be and filmed the PT around the OT instead of trying to fit the OT around the PT.

plasticfetish
09-08-2004, 01:25 PM
I have been thinking on this and came to a theory. If you were crippled and died, then went to Heaven, you would not be a cripple any longer. Your spirit would be returned to the time when you were able to do everything. Maybe there is some hidden religious message in this Trilogy??? :confused: :beard:So here's my "brief" opinion on this thing, and no doubt I'll have more to say after I see the "new" films. In short, I hate this edit. I think the idea of bringing Hayden in is completely tacky and screws the story up in much the same way that the "Greedo shoots first" thing monkeys with ANH. I view each of these films NOT as a 1-6 series, but as stand alone films to be viewed in the order that they were made -- in the order that the stories were originally told to us. In this specific case, the payoff at the end of ROTJ is that we get to see the old man, the same one that we had just seen scarred and twisted, whole and happy. It's simply a matter of singular film continuity, if you watch this movie alone, with no reference to the "prequels," then Hayden makes NO sense. He doesn't exist for us yet, because those stories haven't been told to us yet.

As for why I quoted Kidhuman above -- for sure with all of these movies (the OT anyway) there's definitely a number of spiritual messages and ideas being presented. In this case, it's a redemption or love triumphs over evil message. It's about how we all have a good and a bad side, and how love is powerful enough to rescue a person from darkness, etc., etc.

It's about Anakin's spirit finding peace, and being able to move beyond the conflicts he experienced in the physical world -- as such, I'm not sure why we'd want to see him again as the younger and seriously conflicted Anakin. From a purely symbolic POV, it's all wrong.

I honestly think that Lucas has completely forgotten how to use symbolism or no longer cares about any other symbol besides... $.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-08-2004, 05:04 PM
If you're watching each movie by itself without knowledge of the other ones, they won't make any sense anyway.

I support this change, as seen by my current avatar.

plasticfetish
09-08-2004, 06:47 PM
If you're watching each movie by itself without knowledge of the other ones, they won't make any sense anyway.Well, I don't know about that. If that's so, and if each film can't stand on it's own individually and make sense or tell a coherent story, then that's simply a flaw. One that's being edited into the OT in order to make the PT look better. And honestly, I don't hate the prequels, I actually enjoy them for what they are, but I don't think that they are important enough to warrant modifications to the earlier films.

Fede-Wan
09-10-2004, 02:34 PM
Anakin was redeemed. But he didn't turn to the light.
That's not possible.
Once the The Dark Side is in you, it will never let you go.

Anakin Skywalker is the young Jedi Knight.
He dies at that age.

The change is great.

Don't be that fanatical.

Enjoy the saga as the director wants you to enjoy it.
It's HIS saga after all.

If you don't like the saga as George likes it to be, jump to another wagon, and proceed with your life.

Darth Rend
09-10-2004, 03:58 PM
I think a lot of folks are more bothered by cutting the actor's role to a minimum This is something I really havent been able to understand. Does everyone realize the scene which was altered...conisted of the man standing there smiling? A brief glance at Obi-wan, and then smiling and posing. Thats about it. People make it seem as though he was edited out of the movie...he IS still the man under the vader helmet, and all his spoken lines are still there...he still has one of the most powerful scenes in the saga... the redemtion of Vader. They've cut about 6 seconds worth of smiling and posing, he still has a LARGE presence in the Film.

If your going to feel bad for Mr. Shaw here, think of the girl who played Beru in AOTC...I understand she had several scenes filmed that never made it into the final cut. Or Padme's family...EVERY scene with those actors is gone, they are no longer in the movie at all.....

My point is, this happens all the time. Things are filmed and ultimatly taken out...sometimes actors removed completely. The only difference is Lucas has been releasing and re-releasing Star Wars as a constant Work in progress. No other film is handled that way. There are multiple cuts of EVERY movie thats made during the editing process...we just get to SEE every cut as it is finished...

Star Wars movies are the only movies I know of that are constantly evolving,...becoming fresher and new....I love it and look forward to every "update." Oh, and by the way, I like EVERY SINGLE CHANGE to this edition.


Nope, lucas has lost the touch. I've seen much better stuff come from the creative teams for Star Wars nbased video games. Next time Lucas decided to write a movie he should check in with the guys who wrote Knights of the Old republic. Maybe they can give him some pointers. I ask you, who is cooler: HK-47 or Jar Jar? Nuff said. And all of you who call me a hater because i don't clap everytime lucas does something, can bite me. Having anakin appear young is stupid no matter how you spin it.So I take it you will not be buying a ticket to Episode 3, since you hate Lucas's work so much?

Darth Rend
09-10-2004, 04:07 PM
OF COURSE someone who turns to the Dark Side can turn back to the light. That is the whole point of the Saga!

And I don't believe it is just LUCAS' SAGA anymore. He released it into the public domain years ago. He took our money, in exchange for making Star Wars ours too. .
First off....no, the point to the saga is that no one can turn back from the dark side....but Vader/Anakin does the IMPOSSIBLE...because he is the chosen one.

And as far as public domain goes.....no, sorry. If it was public domain, you could make your own Star Wars movie without getting sued. Like how I could record my own version of "row row row your boat" because that IS public domain, but Metallica would sue my *** if I tried to record my own rendition of "Enter Sandman." Because that is NOT public Domain, and neither is STAR WARS. He takes our money, but that doesn't make it ours. We pay him to be allowed to SEE it, or own a copy for personal viewing. That does NOT imply public ownership.

When Lucas sells stock of the Star wars Franchise, and you buy 40% of it..and he tries to change it without your consent or vote...THEN you can complain about ownership. Untill that happens we are an AUDIENCE.

And I for one love gthe show, changes and all.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-10-2004, 05:14 PM
I whole heartedly agree! How could you even think of replacing mister Shaw? You would also have to make Yoda and Obi appear as their younger selves otherwise the continuity is completely whack. Then if you do that, wouldn't you have to make all the other scenes with spirit Obi-Wan fit the trend and replace Sir Alec with young Ewen thus wiping out his enormous contribution to Star Wars. I think that this entire thing is just silly and is probably a rumor and no more. If there's one thing Star Wars fans should know it's not to believe everything they read online. Anyone remember seeing the Backstreet Boys in Episode I?
It was 'Nsync in Episode II, just so we're clear. :D However in this instance, it is confirmed and has been by several people, the DVDs come out in less than two weeks so some people already have them. So Hayden is in there.

This is what, the fifth thread about Anakin's ghost now? For cryin' out loud, and this one was made by SirSteve himself!!!

Darth Kev
09-10-2004, 10:48 PM
Lots of actors who have small parts in films end up on the cutting room floor--in this case it's 25 years later, but anyway, Shaw is still in the scene on the DS2 when Luke takes off his helmet (although recent articles claim that GL has enhanced his scars a bit for the DVDs). I think adding Hayden's face to the end kind of just ties all six movies together a little more, like his adding the Naboo flyby to the end montage of planet celebrations in the Jedi finales. There would be nothing but the emperor and the droids tying ESB and RotJ to the prequels if he didn't add a bit here and there-- and like someone before said, it's probably good for the younger generations.

Me, it doesn't bother me either way, it adds a bit of freshness to the original trilogy each time something new is added or changed (although I do agree with the 'Han shot first' folks out there). I'm sure this won't be the last time some version of it is released on DVD.

We'll all just have to wait another 25 years till he enhances the prequel trilogy, maybe he'll add a scene to episode III of Palpatine opening up a can of whoop-a** on Jar Jar with the force lightning or something. Look at it this way: Dave Prowse is Darth Vader. Sebastian Shaw is (older) Anakin Skywalker. Anakin Skywalker is Darth Vader. Sebastian Shaw is not Dave Prowse. And don't get me going on Hayden and James Earl Jones (the real Darth Vader imho).
As for Shaw, if you check out his cred's at IMDb (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0789970/) you'll see that he's been in a whole lot of Shakespeare-genre stuff, which I'm willing to bet not too many of us posting here have seen. So if you are a true, die-hard Sebastian Shaw fan and have all of his movies on DVD:rolleyes:, and the autographed photo of him as Marcus Brutus in the 1938 version of Julius Caesar:zzz:, then I can understand the mourning of his face being photo-ILM-shopped with Hayden's for all of eleven seconds out of this wonderful 12 hour universe that GL has created and we all worship.

We have to realize that we all saw it when we were kids, and (count me in) are still obsessed with it and love it and get those little spine tingles every time one of the opening crawls begins. We know we're going to get sucked in again as we did when we were kids; but we also need to pass it on to the next generation, our kids and neices and nephews, and how great is it to be able to tell them stories of how when we were their age we only heard the Wampa in the cave, or that Sebastian Shaw was originally in that ghost scene, or Han shot first. Then we can dust off the ol' vhs version of the films and do it all over again, old school style.
Hail Caesar!:nerv:

JediTricks
09-11-2004, 12:09 AM
Just to clarify, I split these posts out of Steve's tribute thread and merged them here because they were not appropriate for a tribute thread.


JabbaJohn, Steve's thread was only the 2nd thread, this one is the 1st, and they're not really the same thing since Steve's is a tribute where this is a discussion.

jonthejedi
09-11-2004, 05:18 AM
Maybe this whole Jedi disappearing act will be explained in Ep. III. I think Liam was so ****ed at how Ep. 1 turned out...we can rule out Qui-Gon making another "ghostly mentor" appearance. I think Lucas showed Hayden overlapped at the finale because that's how he appears at the end of Ep. III before "the Fall." His final look before the Dark Side talkes over. I know George wants this continuity flow thru all 6 chapters...but I have to agree with the earlier comment that his final act of redemption to save Luke brought him back to the Force...and that's the age he should have been depicted. I have had a chance to see the "tweaked" new OTC(#@$@SPOILER ALERT)...and you think that final shot will tick you off...wait till Vader takes his helment off. I won't ruin some of the other surprises, but Greedo still shoots 1st, and Jimmy Smits does not appear right before Alderan gets hammered. The color is improved, although there are tint tweaks here & there. The sound in places doesn't make sense...and I saw visible moving matte squares during the Tie battle w/the Falcon in Ep. IV. I have to tell you overall...I prefer the laserdiscs. Thanks George, for messing with greatness!

jonthejedi
09-11-2004, 05:27 AM
See my posting in the Sebastian Shaw tribute thread...it should have been here, I guess.

elvandrik
09-11-2004, 07:36 AM
I have had a chance to see the "tweaked" new OTC(#@$@SPOILER ALERT)...and you think that final shot will tick you off...wait till Vader takes his helment off. , for messing with greatness![/QUOTE]
Oh no!!! If he changed the face under the helmet to Hayden I'm gonna freak!!:mad:

scruffziller
09-11-2004, 11:39 AM
Viva Sebastian Shaw!

And viva Larry The Anonymous Actor Who Voiced Boba Fett!
VIVA the guy who stood in for Jabba the Hutt on the ANH deleted scene.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-11-2004, 06:30 PM
Just to clarify, I split these posts out of Steve's tribute thread and merged them here because they were not appropriate for a tribute thread.


JabbaJohn, Steve's thread was only the 2nd thread, this one is the 1st, and they're not really the same thing since Steve's is a tribute where this is a discussion.
Yeah, but there's also one in the Episode III spoiler thread, and a discussion about it in the regular DVD thread.

mini-rock
09-11-2004, 09:26 PM
Is there still room on the "like the changes to the OT DVD" boat? I've only seen the EPIV DVD so far, but this is the best presentation of this movie I have seen, and heard. Absolutely WOW!

2-1B
09-11-2004, 11:56 PM
Good riddance, and get this crusty old goat out of my SW saga ! ! ! !

BTW Chux, the "actor" whom you refer to as "Larry the Anonymous Actor" does have a name and it is Jason Wingreen. :)

2-1B
09-12-2004, 12:05 AM
Would people be as upset about this if Sebastian Shaw wasn't worm food right now ?

Seriously, I have read many inclusions of the description "the late" in front of Shaw's name as people make their posts . . . so would it be not as bad a change if he were alive ?

I have no problem with people who dislike the change, no problem at all - I just don't see the relevance of Shaw being a corpse and all. :confused:

Kidhuman
09-12-2004, 06:17 AM
Seriously, I have read many inclusions of the description "the late" in front of Shaw's name as people make their posts . . . so would it be not as bad a change if he were alive ?



It would be bad Caesar to me. Just as bad. But when the guy is dead and cant defend himself, its worse. It would be like if you died(God forbid), and a new guy started posting, and SirSteve went and changed all your posts to his name. Yeah, I'd be p#$%^d too if that happened.

mabudonicus
09-12-2004, 06:33 AM
would a mod please delete Caesar's posts in this thread, or force him to change his avatar????
\m/ :beard: \m/
J/K :D but you gotta admit it is pretty bad, good call Caesar

JediTricks
09-12-2004, 08:05 PM
Yeah, but there's also one in the Episode III spoiler thread, and a discussion about it in the regular DVD thread. The DVD Changes thread is not directly focused on this issue, and the Ep 3 Spoilers thread is focused on the Ep 3 angle rather than the CT angle.

Anyway, here comes another batch of posts merged into this thread.


Caesar, I think KH's point is how I feel about this, it would still matter to me, but it's even worse when the guy can't defend himself. Same thing with Richard Marquand, director of ROTJ, who cannot defend all the things that are being done to the movie he directed or even rebuff the claims made by Lucas lately that usurp the film's helming away from Marquand.

2-1B
09-12-2004, 09:13 PM
Fair enough. Thanks for your opinions, fellas. :)

mabs --- the 'Bas vs. Hayden avatar scandal will cause the next great SSG rift !
viva la resistance ! ! ! :crazed:

:Ogre:s rock.

JediTricks
09-13-2004, 07:52 PM
While looking through galactichunter.com's review of the new ROTJ disc, I noticed that their screencaps comparing the old and new versions of Anakin's spirit at the end of the film show the Anakins are not looking the same direction as each other. In both cases, Sebastian is looking in to the screen's left while Hayden is looking to the right. See attachment.

(Also, I might add that Hayden's face in these shots is MEGA-creepy!)

Was this an accident, or is there a specific reasoning in mind here? What is this new Anakin supposed to be looking at now?


Not really related to that, but I just realized that ILM had to digitally lengthen Hayden in this shot because he's not as tall as Shaw.

plasticfetish
09-13-2004, 08:14 PM
Yep, Hayden's face is very creepy. Reminds me of Nicholson in the Shining.

It seems to me, that the light source isn't right either. Yoda and Obi-Wan are lit much harder than Hayden-Anakin.

You know, I'd be curious to see how changes like this looked on the big screen.

mini-rock
09-13-2004, 08:38 PM
You know, I'd be curious to see how changes like this looked on the big screen.

Looks great on my "big screen." ;)

JediTricks
09-13-2004, 08:39 PM
Yeah, Nicholson in the Shining, good call, I totally agree!

I had not noticed that lighting issue, but in the 2nd picture it does seem as if the lighting on Hayden is coming from his right-front while on Shaw it's hitting him from his left. I never once thought about how these changes would play in theaters, which might suggest just how little I think of these changed versions as movies at all (though I cannot say for certain).

CooLJoE
09-13-2004, 10:37 PM
Worst..StarWars Change..Ever!

Honestly, it doesn't make sense.

Sure, he goes to the dark side and technically you can never return to the light side, however, you also cannot "give" yourself to the force when you are on the dark side. And since you cannot return as a spirit without "giving" yourself to the force, please explain how Vader did just this (as a dark jedi since some of you think he can't go back).

And beyond that, if you watch all 6 movies, there is going to be a 6 hour gap between the time you see light-side-Anakin and when Vader returns as a spirit (as the stupid young-Anakin). And at that point it will look stupid because you'll have nearly forgetten what he looks like. And considering kids don't have the same attention span as adults, I doubt you're kids will see the entire trilogy in one day. It would have to be split over a week or something like that, in which case they WILL have forgotten all about young anakin (because they won't care enough about StarWars to remember his face all the way through). So when Vader dies and they Shaw as the face under the mask, it will make sense, because people age. But then they will see this young long-haired kid with an evil look on his face and be like "who's that person and why is he mad?" And you'll end up having to explain it to them. Yup, that sounds about right...and sound like fun...and you can thank Lucas for that.


Sorry, but even with my ability to spend 12 hours watching the series all the way through, I'm going to see him as a spirit and be like "ugh, thats so stupid and doesn't make sense". And yes, I love StarWars including the prequels. And even then, they could have atleast made the stupid kid smile in a happy way throughout the entire spirit-scene.


Oh well, I'm joining the "Shaw as Anakin's spirit" side. It makes more sense, was the original way, and won't be out of place when viewing the series. Admit it, you'll see his helmet come off, see an older aged Anakin, and then think its odd to see young Anakin as the spirit.

plasticfetish
09-14-2004, 01:28 AM
Sure, he goes to the dark side and technically you can never return to the light sideOK. You're not the first person I've heard say this, and I'm not trying to single you out ('cause I agree with you) but when did this become a "rule?" I don't remember -- and maybe I'll have to go through them all again now, this idea being written in stone. To me the whole point of the trilogy, is that you can control your own destiny, no matter how far gone you might be. Anakin's sacrifice in the end proves this, and that, no matter how evil he's become, there's still some good in him.


And beyond that, if you watch all 6 movies, there is going to be a 6 hour gap between the time you see light-side-Anakin and when Vader returns as a spirit (as the stupid young-Anakin).See, that's my thing -- I don't look at these movies as a 1-6 serial. It's 4-5 and then 1-3 for me.

If they did made a 6-9, I'd still watch them in the order that the stories were told to us.

Droid
09-14-2004, 09:23 AM
Thank you plasticfetish, I have been arguing on the threads that you can turn good again, that it is the whole point of the second trilogy (and perhaps the Saga). Luke was right, not Yoda, not Ben. "There is still good in him." "The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully."

And Yoda said, "Once you start down the Dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" not "You can never be a good person again." If I commit a murder in my youth it will permanently close some doors for me, be a black mark on my record forever, but it does not mean I can never be a good person again. That is the point of the trilogy!

CooLJoE
09-14-2004, 09:38 AM
OK. You're not the first person I've heard say this, and I'm not trying to single you out ('cause I agree with you) but when did this become a "rule?" I don't remember -- and maybe I'll have to go through them all again now, this idea being written in stone. To me the whole point of the trilogy, is that you can control your own destiny, no matter how far gone you might be. Anakin's sacrifice in the end proves this, and that, no matter how evil he's become, there's still some good in him.

See, that's my thing -- I don't look at these movies as a 1-6 serial. It's 4-5 and then 1-3 for me.

If they did made a 6-9, I'd still watch them in the order that the stories were told to us.

You know, I am on your side of this arguement :rolleyes:

Either way, I put in the part about "technically not being able to go back to the light side" just to please those who think its true. I do think that a dark jedi can go back if they truly want to in their heart (which Anakin did).

Also, 1-6 as a serial? you mean series :P. And don't worry, they won't make a 6-9. Or atleast Lucas said he wouldn't make a 7-9...6 is already done :P

Just pickin on ya.


Either way, my opinion is that it is a series. This is the wrong thread to debate whether it is a complete series or 2 seperate trilogies, so lets keep it to the topic at hand. Besides, it doesn't help our side to pick on each other about their opinions.

Darth Rend
09-14-2004, 12:46 PM
Thank you plasticfetish, I have been arguing on the threads that you can turn good again, that it is the whole point of the second trilogy (and perhaps the Saga). Luke was right, not Yoda, not Ben. "There is still good in him." "The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully."

And Yoda said, "Once you start down the Dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" not "You can never be a good person again." If I commit a murder in my youth it will permanently close some doors for me, be a black mark on my record forever, but it does not mean I can never be a good person again. That is the point of the trilogy!
Actually Droid, I think it makes it more powerful if Vader was the *ONLY* one who was able to do it. Yoda and Ben were convinced that no one could turn back. Luke, believed he could.

Luke is contfronting the Emperor....He throws away his lightsaber....The Emperor starts to KILL Luke with force-lightning...Luke doesn't even TRY to fight back..instead begs his father to save him.......

...at this point, the tension is supposed to be heightened because, as Ben and Yoda have told us, it simply isn't possible for someone to break the grasp of the Dark side. Luke is going to die because he has placed his survival in the hands of a Dark Lord of the Sith, someone who could NEVER break the hold of the DARK SIDE....

But Luke BELIEVES in him.

And anakin is the CHOSEN one.

and the rest is history....Vader breaks free, and saves his son. Its is all the more dramatic to me if Vader does the impossible.

Droid
09-14-2004, 02:00 PM
I am not saying it is easy to turn your back on the Dark Side. But, I don't know where this "rule" came from that no one can do it. And I don't know that it is anywhere in the current five movies (no spoilers please) that only the "chosen one" can turn good again. But, I agree with you, the moment where Vader saves Luke and kills the Emperor is supposed to be - and is - full of dramatic tension.

JediTricks
09-14-2004, 07:54 PM
Sooooo.... how about that wrong-direction issue on Hayden's face, any good theories?

Darth Rend
09-15-2004, 08:46 AM
I'm thinking it is a "knowing wink" to the audience, a la Boba Fett, episode 4.


Ok I am a supporter of the Hayden-ghost idea...but I really wish he wasn't mugging the camera.

Veers
09-17-2004, 11:02 PM
I do not like it. Why make Anakin young? Obi Wan is still the same. Makes no sense to put Hayden in. Should have left Sebastian in. It makes me almost want to not buy the DVD set.

Knightfall
09-18-2004, 09:14 AM
I think Hayden is facing the audience as if to say "Ha ha, you suckers, you paid $70 for these movies and look what you got!" :p

2-1B
09-18-2004, 11:13 PM
Well then the joke is on anyone foolish enough to pay $70 for a $40ish set. :D

Beast
09-18-2004, 11:36 PM
Well then the joke is on anyone foolish enough to pay $70 for a $40ish set. :D
$38.99 if you have a CompUSA near you. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

mini-rock
09-19-2004, 12:50 AM
$24.99 through a connection. ;) :D

Beast
09-19-2004, 12:59 AM
$24.99 through a connection. ;) :D
You lucky bastage! Grrrrrrrr.....

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

mini-rock
09-19-2004, 01:50 AM
Yeah, I know. I was owed a favor. :D

2-1B
09-19-2004, 10:42 AM
So is $25 the wholesale dealer cost ? :confused:

plasticfetish
09-19-2004, 04:42 PM
$38.99 if you have a CompUSA near you. ;) :D
Really? You rock! Thanks for that.

mini-rock
09-19-2004, 04:52 PM
So is $25 the wholesale dealer cost ? :confused:

Not sure. :)

JediTricks
09-19-2004, 09:28 PM
Hey, we already have a thread about DVD prices, this one is about Hayden replacing Sebastian... and then looking the wrong direction. ;)

2-1B
09-20-2004, 03:15 AM
I don't yet know that it's the "Wrong" direction but I'll tell you in 2 days if it is. :D

Who knows, maybe right before that clip he was looking at Obi-Wan and in this still he's already moved that look partially away while Yoda remains locked in and lovestruck for Obi.

OR maybe Hayden didn't even know he was being filmed for this scene. To save time, Rick McCallum might have taken some hidden camera footage of an in-wig Hayden watching Natalie Portman undress offscreen. Anything's possible. :Ogre:

plasticfetish
09-20-2004, 04:40 AM
(OK. Double post coming up. I apologize, but I need to separate them. ;) )

Also, 1-6 as a serial? you mean series :P. And don't worry, they won't make a 6-9. Or at least Lucas said he wouldn't make a 7-9...6 is already done"6-9" -- yeah, I meant 7-9, but didn't bother to edit myself ('cause I was sleepy.) Anyway... no, I meant "serial" as in...

1 : of, relating to, consisting of, or arranged in a series , rank, or row <serial order>
2 : appearing in successive parts or numbers <a serial story>

I don't consider a "series" to be limited by chronology. In this case, what's important to me and why I think it applies to the entire debate about whether these few visual edits have changed the overall story structure of the "series" -- is because I think that adding Hayden to the end of ROTJ weakens the story. We were introduced to this "space myth" with episodes 4, 5 and 6 -- and then given episodes 1,2 and 3 as a kind of clever way of delivering a back history that we didn't really know.

If we'd gotten 1-3 first, then we'd have been less excited about 4-6 because we'd have already known most of it's secrets. There'd be no surprises right? So suddenly, "Luke, I Am Your Father." isn't this huge climactic and shocking moment anymore -- because we saw episodes 1-3 first.

Either way, my opinion is that it is a series. This is the wrong thread to debate whether it is a complete series or 2 separate trilogies, so lets keep it to the topic at hand.So yeah, sure, I agree that it's a series. I don't think that anyone would argue that it isn't. It's just not a "serial" story -- and again, I think that this is totally relevant, because I think it's pretty much the main reason why I dislike the Hayden edit.

Just the same, and to give another example, I hate the re-addition of Jabba to ANH because, from a story telling standpoint, it weakens the impact of our first seeing him in ROTJ.

So anyway, again... not trying to have a go at you specifically, you just happened to be the "lucky" one who brought it up when I happened to be reading and thinking about this.

As far as episodes 7-9 goes... I'd bet that they'll happen some day. I could see Lucas handing a third story (trilogy) over to someone else. It's the whole myth thing that he loves so much -- episodes 1-6 are his Iliad and Odyssey, and 7-9 will be someone else's Aeneid. (I liked John Williams' comment on the VH1 thing about how he thinks that there will be more movies also. ;) )

plasticfetish
09-20-2004, 04:47 AM
Sooooo.... how about that wrong-direction issue on Hayden's face, any good theories?While Yoda and Obi-Wan gaze happily over at Luke and Leia -- Hayden/Anakin is looking nervously off into the future, seeing his acting career replaced by a lifetime of convention appearances and VH1 specials. :eek:

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-20-2004, 10:26 AM
I don't think he's even looking the wrong way. In my avatar (though hard to see), he's looking at Luke, while in Caesar's, he's looking, I don't know where. I've seen the video, and he doesn't really look the wrong way. Besides, we don't know exactly where Luke and Leia are in relation to the Jedi, there's not a wide shot of all five of them.

JediTricks
09-20-2004, 06:25 PM
John, did you see my earlier attachment? Hayden is facing a different direction from Shaw & the others, I just checked the OT version, Shaw is facing the direction of the screen where Luke is, then they cut to Luke and he's on that side of the screen. With Hayden looking in another direction, he's now looking at a tree and some ewoks.



Here's my answer (http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=25285) to the whole Hayden replacing Shaw issue!

plasticfetish
09-20-2004, 06:35 PM
Hahahahahaha... that avatar.

Darth-Capone
09-21-2004, 06:01 AM
i also went back to the beginning of the pic after seeing this. I thought GL might have put some little photos of Haydn (as Annie ), around Luke's abode.

After seeing this image on the net I was worried that GL had even tinkered with the unmasking of vader sequence. I mean if he went thus far, I'm surprised Lucas didn't even try something here....glad he didn't though.

By using Haydn at the end it's the unmasking with Sebastian Shaw that makes it so unplausible.

The end of the argument is that he shouldnt of done it. But it's George Lucas' baby and he does what he pleases. I guess no one has the balls at Lucasfilm to say "ermmm George, that's not a good idea really".

Because I guess they would be out of a job maybe, I dunno. But it still sux.
Shocking idea in my opinion.