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View Full Version : Midichlorians gift from God, abused, taken away as Anakin goes Sith - religion in E3



Tycho
07-28-2004, 05:08 PM
Hopefully this won't go to the Rancor Pit, because it's spoiler laden and this is the spoiler section.

From TFN:


The moment Darth Vader wakes up from his slumber, and Anakin Skywalker truly is no more, the force will cease to exist in the land of the living. No more force sensitive children will be born... And all that will remain are those that had the gift before the dark times came, and managed to survive the first waves of the purge.
The last two force sensitive beings to come to existance, will be Luke and Leia, born mere seconds before their father's death... And the only survivors of the actual Jedi purge, that will go on for a great many years after the events of ROTS, are, as we all know, Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi.

The four of them survive, not to save the galaxy, but to save the man that will.

Seems to me that the midichlorians or a super-natural being that bestows them on individuals showing promise decides to take their gift away when they are abused and used for the Dark Side.

What does Anakin going bad possibly have to do with any other being born with MidiChlorians?

How will the Sith continue if no more are born with MidiChlorians? Are Luke and Leia known of, and are Vader or Palpatine counting on them to create Sith offspring should they be turned to the Dark Side?

Every idea I had before is being turned at 45 degree angles by this bit of plot twisting.

I was all for my conspiracy theory that Shmi Skywalker lied and that Anakin really did have a father: Dooku (preferably) Sypho-Dias, or Palpatine.

Much more drama can come to play if Anakin did have a dad.

I'm not sure I like where it looks like things are going to now...

Bosskman
07-28-2004, 07:08 PM
I don't know tycho, Qui-Gon said without the midis, life could not exist. I think everybody and everything that has life in it has the midis. They're not the force, only the conduits between the force and all living things. I hope the midis are never mentioned again. Curse them.

stillakid
07-28-2004, 07:17 PM
Seems to me that the midichlorians or a super-natural being that bestows them on individuals showing promise decides to take their gift away when they are abused and used for the Dark Side..

Yeah, what he said, plus in regards to your idea I've pulled out above, if that line of thinking were true, then why would the Midi's pull the plug starting with Vader and not Palpatine? :confused:

Tycho
07-28-2004, 07:48 PM
Don't know.

I'm not fond of the idea myself.

I think that perhaps TFN's source got it wrong. Some guy who's job it is to hold a flashlight posts his interpretation, and then the TFN group will go and correct it in a week or a month or so...

You're both right: what about Palpatine?

There have also been 2 Sith for 1000 years, right? So if Dooku dies and Anakin replaces him, then what's the difference?

It's a dumb idea that doesn't make sense.

Jay86
07-28-2004, 09:46 PM
The Force is the "something" that controls who "connect" with it and who is sensitive to it. Midichlorians are tiny living cells (or whatever) that connect one with the Force. The Force needs to be in balance, its a basic principle. Equal creation and destruction, its the cycle of life itself. Even before TPM, the Force is known to be in an incredible inbalance (for lack of better term here). If the Force is thrown into an incredible inbalance in which the Dark Side far out-weighs the Light Side, as we know happens in ROTS when Anakin becomes Vader, then perhaps that inbalance is a sign for the Force to "quit choosing people until it is back in balance"? After all, if the Force chooses certain people to be connected with it, and its the duty of the Jedi to maintain peace and order, and the Sith bring destruction, and in ROTS the Dark Side out-weighs the Light Side in terms of its strength within others, then the Force, could in a sense and as previously stated, quit choosing people and wait until it is back in balance, or, until Palpatine is killed and Vader turns back to the Light Side. Only to leave his son Luke, and Leia, to find other Force-sensitive people/beings.

I dunno, thats my take on it. Just a thought.

Tycho
07-28-2004, 10:35 PM
Good thinking Jay. I like your theory.

stillakid
07-28-2004, 11:27 PM
The Force is the "something" that controls who "connect" with it and who is sensitive to it. Midichlorians are tiny living cells (or whatever) that connect one with the Force. The Force needs to be in balance, its a basic principle. Equal creation and destruction, its the cycle of life itself. Even before TPM, the Force is known to be in an incredible inbalance (for lack of better term here). If the Force is thrown into an incredible inbalance in which the Dark Side far out-weighs the Light Side, as we know happens in ROTS when Anakin becomes Vader, then perhaps that inbalance is a sign for the Force to "quit choosing people until it is back in balance"? After all, if the Force chooses certain people to be connected with it, and its the duty of the Jedi to maintain peace and order, and the Sith bring destruction, and in ROTS the Dark Side out-weighs the Light Side in terms of its strength within others, then the Force, could in a sense and as previously stated, quit choosing people and wait until it is back in balance, or, until Palpatine is killed and Vader turns back to the Light Side. Only to leave his son Luke, and Leia, to find other Force-sensitive people/beings.

I dunno, thats my take on it. Just a thought.

To boil that all down, you're saying that the Darkside weighs more than the Lightside? :confused: Because if all the universe has is two bad guys at a time and that is "too much" compared to the 5000-ish Jedi out there, then the Darkside must be incredibly "dense." :neutral:

mabudonicus
07-29-2004, 08:44 AM
So, are you guys saying that Han Solo is Jewish??? I'm confused :D

scruffziller
07-29-2004, 10:04 AM
So, are you guys saying that Han Solo is Jewish??? I'm confused :DUh oh........Jabba has his hand on the button.....:D


Well, actually one quarter Jewish.

Jay86
07-29-2004, 11:29 AM
To boil that all down, you're saying that the Darkside weighs more than the Lightside? :confused: Because if all the universe has is two bad guys at a time and that is "too much" compared to the 5000-ish Jedi out there, then the Darkside must be incredibly "dense." :neutral:
Think about it, its quite simple...I think. The Sith, Vader and Palpatine, rid almost the entire universe of Jedi around the time of Episode 3, thats a given. So if the Jedi carry the power of the Light Side, and maintain peace and order throughout the universe, yet there is hardly any of them left by the end of Episode 3, then whats left to fight against the Sith and the Dark Side? Two Jedi (Yoda and Obi-Wan) who probably could just barely fight Vader and Palpatine on their own? Sure, they could have tried, but I highly doubt it would work. Behind Vader and Palpatine was the entire Empire itself. And we all know that Vader and Palpatine, who ruled the Empire, an Empire that spread fear and destruction, which of course only aided them in growing stronger with the Dark Side, would most likely have been too strong for Yoda and Obi-Wan. If the Sith destroy almost all of them, then no one is left to keep the peace (except Obi-Wan and Yoda), and thus the Empire did what it did between Episodes 3 and 4, but as I stated before, I highly doubt that Obi-Wan and Yoda could take on Vader and Palpatine themselves. Sure they'd put up a fight, but they both knew of Luke and Leia, and they both knew it was up to them to bring their father back to the Light Side and bring the Force back into balance. And we're not talking about the time surrounding Episode 2 here in terms of numbers of Jedi, we're talking about when all thats left is just Vader, Palpatine, Yoda and Obi-Wan. Not when there were hundreds of thousands of Jedi. During Episodes 1 and 2 the Jedi did greatly outnumber the Sith. But "the Phantom Menace", the Sith (Palpatine and his followers), needed to bring Anakin to the Dark Side, if they hadnt, then the Empire would have never been born and perhaps Palpatines plot would have been foiled shortly after Episode 2, who knows. Thats why Anakin was looked upon as such a promising individual, and why so much concern was put forth about him and his abilities. The fate of the universe was, in a sense, all in his hands, and it all revolved around his decisions and feelings.

2-1B
07-29-2004, 11:33 AM
I think the quote from TFN is just the ramblings of a fan somewhere. I don't recall it being labeled as an official spoiler leak, rather a post from the TFN message boards ?

Either way, it's a terrible idea.
Almost as terrible as Tycho's idea that Anakin is Dooku's kid. :p

jblodgett
07-30-2004, 12:01 PM
I thought all the lame-o midicholorian talk was over and done a long time ago.

Tycho
07-30-2004, 01:09 PM
I thought that it wouldn't have been included if it didn't have a point.

So therefore it does have a point.

I figured it was a blood test that could determine Anakin's true father and the Jedi know who that is (the Council, not Obi-Wan).

Hence my Dooku, or Palpatine, or Syfo-Dyas is Anakin's father theories, etc.

If he had family to join (or avenge) he's more likely to turn to the Dark Side.

I was looking for his blood test to reveal parentage, to actually motivate a character.

Anakin just "deciding" to turn to the Dark Side is pretty lame.

stillakid
07-30-2004, 03:55 PM
Anakin just "deciding" to turn to the Dark Side is pretty lame.

I agree, which is why I rather assumed that George would construct the Prequel stories to illustrate how a young brash Anakin inadvertantly hooked up with the "wrong side" because he really felt like that was the right thing to do. Using some catalyst, like a love triangle, to force him to "go bad" is pretty weak, yet I suspect we'll get something of the sort or worse. At present, the only reason that is building is that Anakin never really matured and possesses super-human powers. With that as a foundation, when coupled with trauma (dead mom, childhood slavery, hidden love, and unjustified anger towards Obi Wan), we'll see Anakin succumb to the Darkside as Palpatine continues to stroke his fragile and childish ego. So his turn is less of a conscious decision (as in: "I think I'll go to the Darkside now!") and more of a disaffected youth kind of thing. Meh. :ermm: Again, I'll suggest that Lucas saw LIFE AS A HOUSE and decided that that kid was the perfect Anakin, both as a character and as the actor. So hidee ho, that's what we're getting.

Where do the Midi's fit into this? Same answer as always, Lucas thought people (his own kids) would be too dumb to figure out subtleties so the Midi's were introduced as a blunt instrument to show us that Anakin was REALLY SPECIAL. WHoo hoo! No more, no less.

B_C
08-23-2004, 11:33 AM
Well if nobody can be born with force powers until evil has been purged, all EU material with jedi recruits is going to be contradicted as most of the new jedi are over 18 only 10 years after Vader pops his clogs. :stupid:

Tycho
08-23-2004, 12:48 PM
The more I think about it, this is another case of being misled or lied to before we see the movie to keep some surprise left in it.


Dooku is Anakin's Dad period.


Empire Strikes Back: "I am your father."

Luke: "Ben, why didn't you tell me?!"

ROTJ: Palpatine: "Now fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side."


Revenge of the Sith

Palpatine: "I'm sorry Anakin, but the late Count Dooku was your father."

Anakin: "Mace! Why didn't you tell me?!"

Palpatine: "Now fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side.



Palpatine's seen this all before. That's exactly why he's so overconfident about Luke turning to the Dark Side in ROTJ.


They have pickup shots they've been doing, and when they made ESB, it was very closely guarded and David Prowse didn't even know until he saw the movie.

In ROTJ, the scenes with Vader unmasked - again, almost no one knew. 4-5 people comprised the whole crew including Hamill and Shaw when the final scene was made.


Mark my words:

1) Dooku is Anakin's father and Anakin kills him without ever knowing and when he finds out the Jedi lied to him, it throws him over the edge. It's the only obvious way for the story to proceed.

2) Han Solo is a new kind of Clone Trooper who's programming as a child was interrupted, causing him to develop personality, morals, and independence "he's Solo."


Do this: Watch Episode 1 and assume two things:

1) Shmi Skywalker is lying about Anakin's father. How does she act when observing Qui-Gon's curiousity about her child? If she'd known Dooku 9 years ago, wouldn't she have already heard of Qui-Gon Jinn, even if she'd never met him? Could that have helped her decide to let Anakin go with him?


2) the midichlorian blood test results will become known to Mace and Yoda that Anakin is Dooku's child by some point before the Theed Celebration (doesn't really affect TPM movie, but plays a part in E3).


Watch Episodes 4,5 and 6.

1) Assume Han Solo is a Clone - the kind used for classic Stormtroopers.
2) Recollect that Boba Fett is an obsolete Clone - the Mandalorian kind killed off and replaced by other types during the Clone Wars.

3) Consider Boba's pride in his father. What would he think of the new Stormtroopers, and especially a Rebel and criminal like Han Solo?

Come back and tell me how you felt characters responded and acted during the movies if you considered these things were going on.

stillakid
08-23-2004, 03:00 PM
Mark my words:

1) Dooku is Anakin's father
2) Han Solo is a new kind of Clone Trooper

You're setting yourself up for some disappointment, methinks. But then again, who knows what amount of silliness GL will puke onto screen at this point. :D


Anyhow, while your "reasoning" kinda sorta may hold up, it isn't unlike the "connect the dots" game that Michael Moore plays in 9/11. For instance, I could just as easily look at a bus full of kids and then observe that if any of them got sick at any time after riding the bus that obviously bus rides cause sickness. Naturally I'm not including any other extenuating circumstances, but those just muddy up the reasoning process anyway. :rolleyes: In any case, the Dooku=Jake-akins father thing is just too far fetched, even for Lucas. Besides, once again, if true, it sets up the really unbelievable situation where these Jedi just happen to have their ship disabled and the only place they decide to go for repairs just happens to be the planet on which Dooku's bastard kid is growing up. Then, our heroes just happen to run across this kid and must engage in a multi-stage Rube Goldbergian scheme to get themselves, and the kid, off the planet. Lot's o' hoops, no motivation for any of it. Sorry.

Tycho
08-23-2004, 04:01 PM
Besides, once again, if true, it sets up the really unbelievable situation where these Jedi just happen to have their ship disabled and the only place they decide to go for repairs just happens to be the planet on which Dooku's bastard kid is growing up.

That's the Force working as FATE.

Qui-Gon Jinn: "Our meeting was no coincidence. Nothing happens by accident."

I think that's where the mystical side of Star Wars enters - not with a virgin birth that is the secret "lie" told (like Vader betrayed and murdered your father) for the prequel movies.

It gives Anakin motivation to start killing Jedi.

The SuperShadow storyline has Anakin going off just because the Jedi don't acknowledge how great he is, or they chastise him for being impulsive again. Then Palpatine gives Anakin a few cheap compliments, insinuating a relationship of friendship over the past 14 years they've known each other, and Anakin chooses Palpatine over Mace and 2/3 of his lifetime's cultural upbringing (as a Jedi) just because Palpatine insinuates that the Jedi were at fault for the Clone Wars because they commanded and commissioned the Clones and Dooku was also (conveniently) once a Jedi.

Look, if I were Anakin, I'd quit the Jedi Order or go CSI reporter on them - but not decide to go and kill Jedi children. It was certainly not THEIR fault (the Clone Wars).

Anakin needs more motivation to start killing the Jedi and to strike at Mace.

Dooku having been his secret father whom the Jedi betrayed by letting Anakin kill his own parent - that's motivation considering Anakin's personality!

stillakid
08-23-2004, 04:42 PM
That's the Force working as FATE.

Qui-Gon Jinn: "Our meeting was no coincidence. Nothing happens by accident."

...

Dooku having been his secret father whom the Jedi betrayed by letting Anakin kill his own parent - that's motivation considering Anakin's personality!

Fate, huh? Well, I personally don't buy it and more to the point, find it to be an extremely weak literary tool to use to justify anything in a story, fantasy or not. So not only is this "chance meeting" on Tatooine suspect, but the rational behind Dooku fathering a bastard child is left swinging in the breeze. You're suggesting that Dooku travels to Tatooine, knocks up a random chick so that 9 years in the future, a Jedi will just happen to land on the planet and discover the boy so that later on, that boy will be be trained to kill him (Dooku) and continue on as Palpatine's patsy? Tis a silly plan, planting the seeds of one's own destruction, don't you think?

Tycho
08-23-2004, 05:53 PM
No. It wasn't part of any plan.

Dooku might've even betrayed Shmi having her wind up in slavery because he had to keep the fact that he'd had a child secret.

Perhaps he hated what the Senate and the Jedi were becoming then, and decided to hide his son so that he WOULDN'T grow up to become a Jedi and serve a corrupt Senate.

But as far as fate goes - yes it was fate that the Jawas who intercepted R2 and C3PO sold them to Luke Skywalker's uncle of all people, prompting Luke to become entangled in Obi-Wan's cause to help the Princess.

So fate plays a part in this, weak literary tool or not.

BTW, Anakin had only been on Tatooine (or at least at Watto's) since he was 3 or so. He said so in TPM.

We might want to find pieces or clues as to why Shmi had been a slave in Episode 3. Like I said - less than 10 seconds of dailogue can answer these questions.

stillakid
08-23-2004, 08:37 PM
But as far as fate goes - yes it was fate that the Jawas who intercepted R2 and C3PO sold them to Luke Skywalker's uncle of all people, prompting Luke to become entangled in Obi-Wan's cause to help the Princess.

So fate plays a part in this, weak literary tool or not.



Yeah, but it's easier to accept the R2 scenario because A) Leia was heading for Old Ben on Tatooine to begin with to "dump the DS plans" off her doomed ship, B) the droids were out on the plains where Jawas picked up junk anyway, C) (the fate part) the Beru's just happened to buy those two droids ... why? Why not. We accept it because the rest of the build up is well within reason.

On the other hand, you're suggesting that the TPM scenario is just as plausible: That Dooku knocks up a chick, sends her to a desert planet (for some reason), and then by pure dumb f'ing luck, a Jedi (who should have been Obi Wan) just happens to choose to take his damaged ship to Tatooine where the bastard child is living. The entire scenario depends on Naboo having a Trade Dispute wherein a Jedi is sent to negotiate a peace, but is thwarted and sent escaping away, only to have his ship damaged thus necessitating repairs, wherein he just so happens to choose the one planet in the whole galaxy (heck, the UNIVERSE) where Dooku's bastard child is kept. In the OT, Leia headed for Tatooine because that's where Old Ben was...and he was there because he was watching over Luke. There is a plausability chain there that makes the "C" above acceptable to a viewer. While "lucky" (that Luke wound up with R2), it isn't above the bounds of reason. On the other hand, EVERY part of the Dooku=father scenario relies on pure happenstance (ironically, not unlike Palpatine's entire plan as we've seen it played out onscreen) that his bastard son (Jake-akin) and some random Jedi (Qui Gon...again, coincidentally Dooku's former Padawan) cross paths.

I won't say that Lucas won't pull this kind of thing, but it certainly doesn't earn him any writing points if this is how he plans to tie it all together. I'd just as soon accept the virgin birth as is and write off the Midi's as his lazy moronic writing that we all know and love. :ermm:

Bosskman
08-23-2004, 08:51 PM
As much as I hate to admit it, I think that there will be some sorta revelation in ROTS about Anakin's origins. The whole line about him being from someplace other than Tatooine just always felt like it would be adressed at some later date. I'm pretty sure Dooku isn't Anakin's father, and neither is Palpy, but I think there was something fishy going on that resulted in Anakin going to Tatooine. Hell, maybe it will be revealed that Schmi too him there to HIDE him from Palpy.

Think about it. Anakin is born of Schmi and the force. Palpy senses this and tries to gat Anakin. Schmi's only solution is to sell herself to Gardulla the Hutt and move to Tatooine.

I'd be happy if nothing more than we heard in TPM is all we get about Anakin's origins, but something tells me, call it a tremor in the force if you will, that blubberbody has someting up his sleave that may or may not complicate things further.

Tycho
08-23-2004, 09:44 PM
The Expanded Universe that was authorized in this area tells us that Captain Krayn (spelling?) a pirate (sort of a huge, furry, cat-like 4-eyed Togorian, but not a Togorian) captured Shmi and sold her into slavery. It is unknown whether Anakin had been born at that time or if Shmi crossed paths with a Jedi (Dooku) who came to free the slaves later on.

About 10 years later, when Anakin was 13 and first constructed his lightsaber on Illum, he later faced Krayn in battle and had him cornered as Obi-Wan and Jedi Knight Siri Taichi closed in upon them. The fight was in the rain and Anakin said "he slipped." When they found what was left of Krayn, he'd been severed into 3 or more pieces. Anakin doesn't recall exactly how that happened. ;)

"Jedi Quest" the hardcover that started it all. Check it out.

Slicker
08-23-2004, 10:08 PM
If anyone in this world is Dooku's son it would have to be talk show host Tom Snyder.