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View Full Version : VOTC Stormtrooper is a ripoff



Mr Fett
08-01-2004, 11:07 PM
If you look close to the pictures you can realize that the stormtrooperhas the exact same articulation as the SA Clone. I understand that many people were totally unable to find them at retail but why would they jack up the price 5 mre bucks when they already gave us one of the best "Imperial" figures to date for only $4.97 can anyone explain this to me :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

jjreason
08-02-2004, 12:50 AM
Super articulated Stormtrooper - $5.00
Fancy Star case with Star Wars logos imprinted - $3.00
Use of now-defunct Kenner Logo - $2.00
---------------------------------------------------

Feeling you get when you see toys that look exactly like the ones you got when you were 6 - priceless.

plasticfetish
08-02-2004, 02:43 AM
Feeling you get when you see toys that look exactly like the ones you got when you were 6 - priceless.
Mmm, the feeling that I'm starting to get is that these figures should have been a few dollars cheaper.

Kidhuman
08-02-2004, 08:19 AM
I agree, 10 bucks is a high price topay, but for this limited line, I dont mind paying it. One reason to collect these MOC.

B_C
08-02-2004, 08:34 AM
Yes most of the articulation is the same, but with a few differences. The elbows can now be bent in the same way as sa clonetrooper, same with wrist articulation. On the commtech version it was a swivel joint so restricted the movement. The figure now bents at the waist and has a fully ball jointed knee on each leg, again this was previously a hinge joint that didn't allow you to twist at the knee at all. Finally, the figure is jointed at the ankle and has a working holster to put his weapon. All these feature have been added so in my point of view, will make this figure very hard to get hold of because of army builders.

Deoxyribonucleic
08-02-2004, 10:13 AM
I agree, 10 bucks is a high price topay, but for this limited line, I dont mind paying it. One reason to collect these MOC.

Couldn't have said it better myself! :)

and yeah, star cases are pretty expensive in and of themselves, and these star cases are "fancy" so paying a few extra bucks is ok with me. Plus as JJR said, that vintage look is priceless!

mm74md
08-02-2004, 11:05 AM
Feeling you get when you see toys that look exactly like the ones you got when you were 6 - priceless.

Oh yeah! I usually let my son rip open the figures we get....but these are staying on the card as well as the other OTC figs I decide to get!

bigbarada
08-02-2004, 11:23 AM
Well, Hasbro did say that these figures would have a limited availability and the high price tag is the best evidence that that claim is true.

Just like comic books and DVDs, the more limited the run, the more the company has to charge for each item to make a profit (which is why independent publishers have to charge $3 per issue of a comic book when giants like Marvel and DC only have to charge $1 per issue).

So I don't believe that the high price tag for these figures has anything to do with the clamshells, the vintage style cards or the soft goods on the figures. I think it is tied directly to these figures being produced in much lower numbers than the standard action figures.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
08-02-2004, 11:28 AM
It's not like the stormtrooper uses the samebody as the clone trooper, they're different, but with the same articulation points. You're complaining that they have the same number, but if it had less, you'd be complaining even more. They can't really improve on the articulation from the clone anyway.

TheDarthVader
08-02-2004, 12:58 PM
So far I have enjoyed these VOTC figures. I never got many Star Wars figures when I was young. I was 3 when ROTJ came out anyway. I remember I had a Jabba, speeder bike with biker scout, and endor rebel soldier. That is all I had. I am excited to finally have the "feeling" like I am getting some older figures. At least they look older. :D The price is fine with me.

AmanaMatt
08-02-2004, 07:33 PM
Normally, I would complain at a $10 price tag for any 3 3/4" Star Wars figure, but I think the VOTC version will be 'the' version for years to come....as far as I can tell, this fig is perfect - the clincher is (for me) the wrist articulation and the useable holster - which I thought it would be when I was at SDCC, but it was really hard to tell in the glass case and all that.

Other VOTC that seem to justify the pricetag (to me):

Han, Luke (to a slightly lesser degree), Chewie, Fett, and the fantastic Stormtrooper.

plasticfetish
08-02-2004, 08:14 PM
I agree, 10 bucks is a high price topay, but for this limited line, I dont mind paying it. One reason to collect these MOC.Yeah, this is true. If I can find any of these in decent shape, I'll probably keep them all carded. I'm not really wild about the idea of something that's only worth the price IF you keep it carded (might as well be a McFarlane toy) but I suppose that's what we've got.

As far as the Stormtrooper goes, I'll reserve my final opinion for when I find it at retail. They all looked good (some great) at Comic-Con, but things do seem to change once you've got them in hand -- and you're debating whether to toss down ten bucks a pop, and twice that for doubles.

JediTricks
08-02-2004, 10:04 PM
It's not like the stormtrooper uses the samebody as the clone trooper, they're different, but with the same articulation points. You're complaining that they have the same number, but if it had less, you'd be complaining even more. They can't really improve on the articulation from the clone anyway.
I believe the complaint actually is that "why should this VOTC stormtrooper cost us $10 when the SA Clonetrooper who is just as well-designed cost half that", and it's an entirely valid question IMO. I want at least a dozen of this figure, but not at $10 each, I'd cough up $60 for a case of 12 in a second - don't even need a stupid clamshell or faux-vintage package, just gimme this great looking figure at a REASONABLE price and I'll reward you with my hard-earned money.

Mr Fett
08-02-2004, 11:39 PM
It's not like the stormtrooper uses the samebody as the clone trooper, they're different, but with the same articulation points. You're complaining that they have the same number, but if it had less, you'd be complaining even more. They can't really improve on the articulation from the clone anyway.They actually have less articulation they only have 13 pints VS 14 for the SA Clone:cry:

Mr Fett
08-02-2004, 11:44 PM
I believe the complaint actually is that "why should this VOTC stormtrooper cost us $10 when the SA Clonetrooper who is just as well-designed cost half that", and it's an entirely valid question IMO. I want at least a dozen of this figure, but not at $10 each, I'd cough up $60 for a case of 12 in a second - don't even need a stupid clamshell or faux-vintage package, just gimme this great looking figure at a REASONABLE price and I'll reward you with my hard-earned money.JT is rigth I'm not complaining about the figure i love the figure i just think that regardles of package and clams etc.. this figure is compleately overcharge when you put it side to side with the clone. and as JT metioned if i wanted to buy a small army I will cost me an ar a leg and my first born:crazed:

Mr. JabbaJohnL
08-03-2004, 10:28 AM
There's a spotlight on the Hasbro site, for anyone who hasn't seen it yet. I think it looks pretty good, I like how it has a holster that works. I wonder which wrist is articulated? Hopefully the left so he can hold the blaster like on the package. But the film title looks like crap.

bigbarada
08-03-2004, 11:38 AM
Let me say this again, since no one seemed to read my first post:

These figures only cost $10 apiece because they are limited releases when compared to the standard figures. This means that they are made in much smaller quantities than your average OTC or Saga figure. They are NOT mass-market figures. Thus, since the production numbers are so much lower, they have to be priced higher to offset the cost of production.

Also, if Hasbro is using archival quality plastics on the bubbles and clamshells, that will cause the basic price to go up. Archival plastics can be anywhere from 3 to 10 times more expensive than regular plastics.

Your standard DVD costs about $20 only because it is made from cheap plastics and will degrade to the point of being unwatchable withing 5-10 years. Archival DVDs will last decades, but can cost up to $80 apiece.

Anyways, the solution is simple, if you don't like the price then don't buy them. I'm sure that Hasbro will rerelease these figures in some other cheaper format later on down the road if the line continues on after Ep3.

Deoxyribonucleic
08-03-2004, 12:21 PM
So!

People can still complain about the price if they want. That's what these forums are here for and that's what humans do for crying out loud. To some people who don't have a lot of money, the $10 dollar price tag may be way too much after only paying $4.77 for other figures for so long and they have the right to voice their opinions on the matter. And since we know Hasbro reads these forums, maybe that will change how they do things like this in the future. And according to Plastic Fetish, some of these VOTC figures are looking pretty "shabbily" done and I have to agree. And yes these too are being mass marketed. If everyone is finding them, which it seems most people are, just like the regular figures, then that certainly is mass marketed. If they only made say 500 of each, then I'd say that was not mass marketed, but that is hardly the case.

Also, people don't care about the reasons why hasbro has to charge more to make up for the money they spend....it does not affect a person's choice in buying these things...they will see the end result which is the price they have to pay to acquire these figures and if it's too high, well it's that freekin' simple. :rolleyes:

bigbarada
08-03-2004, 12:37 PM
So!

People can still complain about the price if they want. That's what these forums are here for and that's what humans do for crying out loud. To some people who don't have a lot of money, the $10 dollar price tag may be way too much after only paying $4.77 for other figures for so long and they have the right to voice their opinions on the matter. And since we know Hasbro reads these forums, maybe that will change how they do things like this in the future. And according to Plastic Fetish, some of these VOTC figures are looking pretty "shabbily" done and I have to agree. And yes these too are being mass marketed. If everyone is finding them, which it seems most people are, just like the regular figures, then that certainly is mass marketed. If they only made say 500 of each, then I'd say that was not mass marketed, but that is hardly the case.

Also, people don't care about the reasons why hasbro has to charge more to make up for the money they spend....it does not affect a person's choice in buying these things...they will see the end result which is the price they have to pay to acquire these figures and if it's too high, well it's that freekin' simple. :rolleyes:

Still, it doesn't matter. Hasbro isn't ripping anyone off if you agree to pay $10 for the figure. If you don't like the price, then the most effective way to let Hasbro know is to NOT buy the figure. Hasbro has learned not to take collectors seriously because we endlessly whine and complain, but at the end of the day we still shell out the money to buy their product.

Thus if everyone who thinks these figures are too expensive doesn't buy them, then Hasbro will effectively get the message that $10 is too much to charge for a 4" figure if its only added bonus is a little bit of nostalgia.

Personally, I have no problem with paying a little more for the extra care that went into recreating the vintage cards. Plus, considering as how these are the only figures I plan to buy until the Ep3 figures are released, then $10 a piece is not really a big deal.

Kidhuman
08-03-2004, 12:42 PM
Personally, I have no problem with paying a little more for the extra care that went into recreating the vintage cards. Plus, considering as how these are the only figures I plan to buy until the Ep3 figures are released, then $10 a piece is not really a big deal.


I agree. I too am not buying at legast 50% of the OTC line. I basically have all I want right now, still need Hoth Vader, Scanning Crew dude, and a few Stormies and extra Biker Scouts. After that I am done. I might get the Wal-MArt exclusive 3 packs, but those can end up on lay-a-way for two months. It still gives me time to get ready for '05 figures and EP3 figures.

Deoxyribonucleic
08-03-2004, 12:57 PM
Hasbro isn't ripping anyone off if you agree to pay $10 for the figure.

Never said anything about Hasbro ripping people off. The point of my post WAS simple, people complain about everything under the sun, if they want to complain about this, so be it, let them do it, it is their right and Hasbro may change their ways when people aren't buying their product.


Thus if everyone who thinks these figures are too expensive doesn't buy them, then Hasbro will effectively get the message that $10 is too much to charge for a 4" figure

As I stated already in my post above about hasbro reading these threads.


Personally, I have no problem with paying a little more for the extra care that went into recreating the vintage cards. Plus, considering as how these are the only figures I plan to buy until the Ep3 figures are released, then $10 a piece is not really a big deal.

I don't either, but many people do because many people don't share the same income as others. And alot of the people on these boads are young, without a job are large income where they can just plop down 10 bucks and not think twice about it. I don't see why on earth it is such a big deal to you why people complain about it. As you said, if they don't like the price, don't buy it. Well, if you don't like them complaining, don't read their posts...that simple eh.

bigbarada
08-03-2004, 02:24 PM
I don't either, but many people do because many people don't share the same income as others. And alot of the people on these boads are young, without a job are large income where they can just plop down 10 bucks and not think twice about it. I don't see why on earth it is such a big deal to you why people complain about it. As you said, if they don't like the price, don't buy it. Well, if you don't like them complaining, don't read their posts...that simple eh.

My income is so small that I don't even qualify to pay income taxes. I understand about the financial strain, but it's not like these are flooding into stores in great numbers. So the cost is a little spread out.

In my mind, this is how the toy line should have made it's great comeback in 1995. Thus these twelve figures on these cards are long overdue. So I will put every other toy on hold until I can get all of these guys (to include the Ep3 figures) I might even hold off on buying the DVD set so I can have more money for this line.

As for the complainers, yes they have the right to voice their complaints and I have the right to call them silly for doing so. :p

I have no problem with people who hate them and don't buy them. But the people who whine, moan and complain but still buy the figures... well that's just dumb.

ronhudy
08-03-2004, 03:43 PM
Why are so many people concerned with a figure having 20 points of articulation...when they're going to leave it carded anyway?

jedi master sal
08-03-2004, 04:15 PM
Why are so many people concerned with a figure having 20 points of articulation...when they're going to leave it carded anyway?

Ha, ain't that the truth.

As too the comment on the great care it took to create or recreate the cards, (and I'm biased here), it was nothing for them to do. I'm a graphics designer by nature and use all of the usual programs daily. I've done my share of custom cards and I've gotta say that these are extremely easy to recreate.

The cost of printing for these cards isn't all that much more than common sided SAGA cards. (That is to say the Saga cards all have the same front but different backs.)

In the industry the common SAGA card would be called a shell.

These characer specific cards though wouldn't be that much more expensive. They still use the same amount of inks to create the image (which are CMYK or Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and Black). To save on cost all of the cards could have been put on one big sheet and run at the same time.

The clamshells are nice but very cheap. 5 cents if that. Especially when you consider the quantity of figures produced.

I am one of those who can afford to pay for these. I'm getting two of each. 1 carded/1 loose But I whince everytime I've paid for these. I'd much rather they be a lower pricepoint. Okay, so they could go for $7.50. That's not too far off the normal price. Especially when you considered we pad $6.99 for TPM figs.

I can't help but feel ripped off when getting VOTC for twice the price of another fig. So they have more articulation. Big deal, THEY SHOULD! SA clone is a perfect example of what can and was. look at the demand for that figure. If Hasbro would have gone crazy on that fig and produced a million of them, I bet each and everyone would have sold. Look at what they are going for on eBay. *shudders* That doesn't give Hasbro the excuse to jack up the price of regular figures.

(Sarcasm alert)

Ooh so they look like the vintage cards, ooh so they have alot of articulation.
None of this really matter. They are still little action figures. A little more expense okay, but not TWICE as much. Sheesh, who's the scalper now...

Don't get me wrong. I love collecting and will always love SW, but this kinda crud is getting out of hand.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now.

Dr Zoltar
08-03-2004, 04:24 PM
I myself like these figures and don't have a problem paying the $10 for them. Even the Obi-Wan with the big cloak that I've heard people complain about (it's tough to get fabric to look right when it's so small). If you don't like them, don't buy them. Much like I did with most of the animated Clone Wars figures that I thought looked horrible.

My only complaint about the VOTC Stormtrooper is that the first person in any store that sees it, will buy every single one. So my chances of finding one at retail will be low due to army builders, resellers, or people who grab extras for friends. This is one figure I may end up having to resort to eBay for.

Deoxyribonucleic
08-03-2004, 04:45 PM
I have no problem with people who hate them and don't buy them. But the people who whine, moan and complain but still buy the figures... well that's just dumb.

that I understand, but there are some very legit complaints in this thread and the thread is entitled with complaints in it...and if someone buys it and then takes it out of the package and is unhappy, understandable. Some of these figures on the shelves look to be substandard when it comes to paint jobs...they look like they were dipped in a bucket of paint and thrown in the bubble...there's so much paint on some of these, it makes Sigfreud and Roy look good! So I understand the complaints. Plus the fact that alot of people who are buying them are NOT buying them for nastalgic purposes...they were not around when the old figs came out or didn't buy them...what they are looking for are the "superior" sculpts that were promised by hasbro and it seems that in some cases (the "new" boba fett for instance) we are being let down, and to pay 10 to 11 dollars to top it off is a big giant ****er!!

Mr Fett
08-03-2004, 10:00 PM
My main complaint is not that i can't pay 10 for a figure, where i feel that Hasbro is riping me off is the fact that they did ofer thebest figure ever created for $5.00 and know they just reprint a card that cost next to nothing plus a clam that is substandar at best and that doubbles the price. That is what I find totally unaceptable,and by the way this figures are that limited, everytime i go to K-mart there is plenty of them (K-mart of all places) which makes them mass produce and not limited at all.

JediTricks
08-03-2004, 10:13 PM
They actually have less articulation they only have 13 pints VS 14 for the SA Clone:cry:
Yeah, good point, why only 1 articulated wrist on this figure when the SA clone has 'em both?



These figures only cost $10 apiece because they are limited releases when compared to the standard figures. This means that they are made in much smaller quantities than your average OTC or Saga figure. They are NOT mass-market figures. Thus, since the production numbers are so much lower, they have to be priced higher to offset the cost of production.1) I question that these are really THAT limited, I'm betting they have at least a 50,000-unit global run each (which is the low end of regular figures).

2) Why should we collectors be penalized for Hasbro making the CHOICE to stick these in expensive packaging and charge double? They didn't HAVE to make these limited figures, they didn't charge extra on the the SA clone which had a very short run.



Still, it doesn't matter. Hasbro isn't ripping anyone off if you agree to pay $10 for the figure.Yes, Hasbro is, it's just that in this scenario the customer is willing to let himself get ripped off. Hasbro has a monopoly on this piece, the customer wants the toy but ends up having to pay extra for that.

And JMS makes a great argument about the actual costs of this packaging being far too low to double the usual price (and if you truly believe Hasbro used archival materials for these, I've got a bridge in San Francisco to sell you).



Why are so many people concerned with a figure having 20 points of articulation...when they're going to leave it carded anyway?I'm not going to leave it carded, no chance at all, so it matters to me a great deal.

jjreason
08-04-2004, 12:13 AM
Having seen the pics of all of these, the Stormtrooper is likely the one most worth the money. I don't need lots, if I want armies I'll go on ebay and track down builder sets of the Commtech based stormies - good enough. But the addition of the holster and more articulation puts this figure over the top in terms of "value" for me.

plasticfetish
08-04-2004, 04:35 AM
These figures only cost $10 apiece because they are limited releases when compared to the standard figures.

Also, if Hasbro is using archival quality plastics on the bubbles and clamshells, that will cause the basic price to go up. Archival plastics can be anywhere from 3 to 10 times more expensive than regular plastics.
I think the price being related to the "limited" run of these figures is partially true -- but I'm not about to agree that it's the only reason why they're $10. If this where the case, then every first run of a figure would cost us $10 a pop. As of right now, I'm seeing these first 3 VOTC figures in all of the Targets around me (at least 5 or 6 of each figure) so they're not that hard to find. Easier than the standard OTC $5 figures.

As far as "archival" clamshells goes -- I remember someone asking at the (comic-con) Q&A whether Hasbro had used any kind of special or acid free plastic for them. The answer was that they had used the same kind of plastic that they use for all of the bubbles, and (paraphrasing) those seem to hold up pretty well over time.

About your "solution," yeah... you're right. If we don't like the price, then we don't have to buy them. Doesn't mean we can't simply discuss whether or not these figures could and should have been priced a few dollars less though. (Just the same, if you don't like reading our constructively critical comments ;) then don't read them.) I do think you're probably right about a "cheaper" re-release though. I said it before, but I'd love a box set that I can open and that averages out to $5 or $6 per figure.


My only complaint about the VOTC Stormtrooper is that the first person in any store that sees it, will buy every single one.I'm kind of kicking myself for not asking the question when I had the chance, but part of me really thinks that the $10 price is -- in part -- to scare off the casual scalpers that might usually run and thoughtlessly grab an entire stack of $5 figures. Probably won't stop them from grabbing the stormtroopers, but who knows.

bigbarada
08-04-2004, 12:11 PM
Alright, fine, complain away. :p :D

I'm sure with enough effort I would be able to reproduce the vintage cards quite convincingly; but then I would have to buy a computer capable of doing just that, a copy of Adobe Photoshop (maybe InDesign also?) and a printer capable of printing out a high quality cardstock print, and then I have to buy the cardstock and figure out a way to make the blister, etc.... It's just so much easier to pay Hasbro $5 extra to do it for me and attach a really nifty version of a core character to the card while they're at it. :)

JediTricks
08-04-2004, 03:29 PM
My Pentium II 300mhz with Adobe Photoshop 4 gives me MORE than ample power to reproduce vintage cards. I was able to make those on my old Pentium 166mhz with PS3 really. It's not hard once you're used to the tools. You could also use the cheaper alternative to Photoshop, JASC's Paint Shop Pro which costs 1/7th the price of photoshop and does pretty much everything but with a not-as-nice interface. Then just take the file to Kinkos and they can print it out for you fairly cheap.

bigbarada
08-04-2004, 03:39 PM
My Pentium II 300mhz with Adobe Photoshop 4 gives me MORE than ample power to reproduce vintage cards. I was able to make those on my old Pentium 166mhz with PS3 really. It's not hard once you're used to the tools. You could also use the cheaper alternative to Photoshop, JASC's Paint Shop Pro which costs 1/7th the price of photoshop and does pretty much everything but with a not-as-nice interface. Then just take the file to Kinkos and they can print it out for you fairly cheap.

Actually, I could just create them here in the Macintosh Lab I work in. We have several G5s and copies of Photoshop CS, Illustrator CS and Quark 6.1, plus a printer that blows away any Kinkos crap. So recreating them would be no problem for me, I was just being confrontational. :)

Sooo..... how would you make the bubbles to hold the figures?

mark2d2
08-04-2004, 04:39 PM
I believe the complaint actually is that "why should this VOTC stormtrooper cost us $10 when the SA Clonetrooper who is just as well-designed cost half that", and it's an entirely valid question IMO. I want at least a dozen of this figure, but not at $10 each, I'd cough up $60 for a case of 12 in a second - don't even need a stupid clamshell or faux-vintage package, just gimme this great looking figure at a REASONABLE price and I'll reward you with my hard-earned money.

Hey, at the end of the day, it's got to cost A LOT more to produce figures with THIS much articulation. Instead of the VOTC being some big rip off -- I think it's much more logical to conclude that the super articulated clone trooper was simply a real good deal. Seriously.

I love all the VOTC figs.

I think that they will probably be "the definitive" versions of these classic characters for all time. The packaging, the articulation, the soft goods, each of these makes me unhesistent at all to pick up both a loose and carded set.

No complaints here. :D

TheDarthVader
08-04-2004, 04:41 PM
Bubbles: get about 5 20 oz plastic coke bottles...melt them down on your oven top, mold them, and *ching ching* instant action figure bubbles! ;)
J/K

B.
TDV

jedi master sal
08-04-2004, 06:43 PM
Actually there are places on the net you can order the coffin sized and SAGA sized bubbles from. I've never researched them myself, but I know they're out there.
I suppose I shall "Google" it and find out.

bigbarada
08-04-2004, 09:50 PM
Hey, at the end of the day, it's got to cost A LOT more to produce figures with THIS much articulation. Instead of the VOTC being some big rip off -- I think it's much more logical to conclude that the super articulated clone trooper was simply a real good deal. Seriously.

I love all the VOTC figs.

I think that they will probably be "the definitive" versions of these classic characters for all time. The packaging, the articulation, the soft goods, each of these makes me unhesistent at all to pick up both a loose and carded set.

No complaints here. :D

My sentiments exactly. Complaining about the price of the VOTC line based on the SA Clonetrooper is like saying that all standard figures should cost $3 since Ephant Mon cost only $5.

Didn't anyone feel that the Ep2 Watto that shipped with Ephant Mon was an incredible ripoff since it was priced the same?

In that case, wouldn't the vintage Wicket be a rip-off in comparison to Amanaman?

plasticfetish
08-04-2004, 10:12 PM
My sentiments exactly. Complaining about the price of the VOTC line based on the SA Clonetrooper is like saying that all standard figures should cost $3 since Ephant Mon cost only $5.

Didn't anyone feel that the Ep2 Watto that shipped with Ephant Mon was an incredible ripoff since it was priced the same?

In that case, wouldn't the vintage Wicket be a rip-off in comparison to Amanaman?
Mmmm, well, considering Hasbo's comments at Comic-Con about how they basically lost their shirt on that Ephant Mon figure, I think it's more accurate to say that we got a great deal on Ephant Mon.

Look, I tend to decide on a figure by figure basis whether I think that we're getting a good deal for our money or not. My thoughts are, very simply, that these VOTC figures aren't that much more detailed or articulated than the best of the basic figures that we've been given in the last year. The packaging is cool and it's novel and I'm excited to be buying these figures, but I know that the $10 price has mostly to do with the fact that these are geared toward -- collectors. I don't think that it's unreasonable to think that Hasbro could have sold these for $7.99 and made a decent profit.

On a related side note -- you guys have been talking about making your own vintage style cardbacks. I remember Hasbro saying at the Q&A that they had to build these cardbacks from scratch. There wasn't any resource material or old graphics left over to use, so their people had to go and duplicate them from nothing.

bigbarada
08-04-2004, 10:22 PM
On a related side note -- you guys have been talking about making your own vintage style cardbacks. I remember Hasbro saying at the Q&A that they had to build these cardbacks from scratch. There wasn't any resource material or old graphics left over to use, so their people had to go and duplicate them from nothing.

Yeah, I figured that. It's not as simple as scanning in a copy of the vintage card and cleaning it up. First you have to find the original prints or negatives from the photo then clean that up and remove any color shifts. Then you need to use a decent illustration program to create the logos and bars. Photoshop could work, but it is not the ideal program to use for illustrated elements. I would guess Adobe Illustrator would work best. Finally you should use a professional quality desktop publishing program to put it all together (most likely Quark but possibly InDesign if the company is on top of their game).

With all of that in mind, I think the designers at Hasbro did a first rate job at recreating the look and feel of the vintage cards. :cool:

arctangent
08-05-2004, 06:01 AM
i have to agree with bigbarada, the design chappies at hasbro have done a very good job of reproducing the old style packaging.

you can't just scan an old printed card in - printing is made up of dots which become mutch more noticeable when scanned. you need to start from scratch if you are going to have anything of a high enough quality to print in a commercial capacity. and, of course this type of packaging needs to be sealed after printing, to stop the ink rubbing off.

photoshop is no good for reproducing anything but basic line art and text, so illustrator is a requirement and in-design seems to be superceeding quark which is good because quark is so basic - i don't know how they have got away with it being the design industry standard for so long. as long as you have illustrator though, you don't really need quark - you can do everything you need in illustrator and you can import layered photoshop files direct too, although you end up with files that take up much more memory. files do sometimes print better through quark though.

anyway, all hail the mighty mac - i would rather have my fingers chopped off that try and do artwork on a pc.

Samuel Windu
08-05-2004, 10:37 AM
It looks good to me.Just consider how many I will get.At least 2,I know.

bigbarada
08-05-2004, 12:31 PM
i have to agree with bigbarada, the design chappies at hasbro have done a very good job of reproducing the old style packaging.

you can't just scan an old printed card in - printing is made up of dots which become mutch more noticeable when scanned. you need to start from scratch if you are going to have anything of a high enough quality to print in a commercial capacity. and, of course this type of packaging needs to be sealed after printing, to stop the ink rubbing off.

photoshop is no good for reproducing anything but basic line art and text, so illustrator is a requirement and in-design seems to be superceeding quark which is good because quark is so basic - i don't know how they have got away with it being the design industry standard for so long. as long as you have illustrator though, you don't really need quark - you can do everything you need in illustrator and you can import layered photoshop files direct too, although you end up with files that take up much more memory. files do sometimes print better through quark though.

anyway, all hail the mighty mac - i would rather have my fingers chopped off that try and do artwork on a pc.

I've imported photo files from Photoshop into Illustrator which works fine, but for some reason, importing Illustrator files into Photoshop doesn't work so well. I guess it's because Photoshop rasterizes the entire image and thus makes editing it a lot more difficult (which is odd because both Photoshop and Illustrator can handle paths, so why can't Photoshop read Illustrator paths?).

ANyways, I'm also a firm believer in the superiority of Macintosh computers over PCs.

Knightfall
08-05-2004, 12:54 PM
Everyone's saying that the SA Clone Trooper costs half as much as the VOTC Stormie. While it's true that in theory you can get in your car, go to Wal-Mart, and pick up two or three SA Clones at $4.77 each, in reality you're not going to get one without getting online and paying a dealer $15-20.

On the other hand, I'm seeing VOTC figures everywhere. Around here, they're easier to find than regular OTC figures. That's not going to change next month when the Stormtrooper starts shipping. He's going to be hanging around for quite a while, and even if he's harder to find than the other VOTCs, he's not going to approach the Clone's scarcity for quite a while, if ever.

bigbarada
08-05-2004, 01:01 PM
Everyone's saying that the SA Clone Trooper costs half as much as the VOTC Stormie. While it's true that in theory you can get in your car, go to Wal-Mart, and pick up two or three SA Clones at $4.77 each, in reality you're not going to get one without getting online and paying a dealer $15-20.

On the other hand, I'm seeing VOTC figures everywhere. Around here, they're easier to find than regular OTC figures. That's not going to change next month when the Stormtrooper starts shipping. He's going to be hanging around for quite a while, and even if he's harder to find than the other VOTCs, he's not going to approach the Clone's scarcity for quite a while, if ever.

You're right, in theory, the SA Clone is half the price of the VOTC Stormtrooper, but in the real world the Clone is double the price and will still be much more difficult to find when the Stormtrooper is released.

Of course, when the armybuilders attack the shelves, I think they will both be equally scarce.

Mr Fett
08-05-2004, 01:06 PM
just think for one second. Clone 4.99 at retail 25+ at Ebay

Stormtrooper 10 at retail 50+ at ebay

bigbarada
08-05-2004, 01:10 PM
just think for one second. Clone 4.99 at retail 25+ at Ebay

Stormtrooper 10 at retail 50+ at ebay

Actually the VOTC figures seem to be going for about $15-$20 apiece on ebay right now, so there's no reason for the VOTC Stormie to be any different (unless the armybuilders force the price up).

JediTricks
08-05-2004, 08:38 PM
Hey, at the end of the day, it's got to cost A LOT more to produce figures with THIS much articulation. Instead of the VOTC being some big rip off -- I think it's much more logical to conclude that the super articulated clone trooper was simply a real good deal. Seriously.Oh, well if you're serious, then ok. ;) Seriously though (:p) that's not acceptable reasoning to me, the SA Clone set the benchmark and this figure doesn't even live up to that and it's twice as expensive. Figures like Asajj Ventress, Saga Luke Palace, and lots more lately have had better-than-average articulation, Dlx Durge had almost the same number of articulation points but was bigger and came with a huge swoop bike and 4 accessories for $10.




Sooo..... how would you make the bubbles to hold the figures? Just going by what the customizers suggest, I could get another figure and salvage the bubble from that, but I also could go to someone who makes molds that could make one for the tray and even shoot it if I wanted to get that detailed. I happen to know a person who makes molds for a living, including working for a company that makes molds for McFarlane.


Didn't anyone feel that the Ep2 Watto that shipped with Ephant Mon was an incredible ripoff since it was priced the same? First off, Hasbro explained that Ephant went above their expected costs, he still turned a profit but not as much as they wanted so he was a short run (which also hampers the "he's limited" argument" a little). Second, I wouldn't exactly choose Ep 2 Watto as an example since that POS is still collecting dust on almost every TRU's pegs today, as well as some Targets and WMs.


Yeah, I figured that. It's not as simple as scanning in a copy of the vintage card and cleaning it up. I didn't say it was EASY, I said it was doable (and not hard once you know the tools, which is an understatement but not a wild one). Someone with photoshop skills could remake every element on there just from the image of a vintage card on separate layers and then have a template to make whatever he wanted.


First you have to find the original prints or negatives from the photo then clean that up and remove any color shifts. Why? Clearly Hasbro didn't, look at the Han VOTC card for proof.


I would guess Adobe Illustrator would work best. I've heard Corell Draw is good too, but I don't use either.


With all of that in mind, I think the designers at Hasbro did a first rate job at recreating the look and feel of the vintage cards. So what? I think they did a much nicer job with the basic OTC cards really. Are you saying that they deserve more of our money because they were able to make an almost-exact duplicate of the cardfront only instead of using it as a starting point and going for there? I'd totally disagree, the OTC cards (fronts only) look great and have more imagination to them which requires more design both for the card graphics AND for the bubble trays which have to align the figures with the background images, and those don't cost ten bucks.



you can't just scan an old printed card in - printing is made up of dots which become mutch more noticeable when scanned.That's true, but the only person I remember bringing that up was BB. ;)


While it's true that in theory you can get in your car, go to Wal-Mart, and pick up two or three SA Clones at $4.77 each, in reality you're not going to get one without getting online and paying a dealer $15-20. That's Hasbro's mistake with poor case assortments and a weak finish to the CW line. Heck, I know folks who picked up SA clones on clearance at Target in January for $2.50 and $1.40, quite a few really. I know someone who got 60 of 'em at various prices and various stores and times and ended up spending far less than the $325 it should have cost him to do that (and that doesn't count travel time, just base cost plus tax).



Actually the VOTC figures seem to be going for about $15-$20 apiece on ebay right now, so there's no reason for the VOTC Stormie to be any different (unless the armybuilders force the price up). I know at least a dozen folks already who are planning on getting 3 or 4 of these each, I'm getting 2 myself at least and I'm not an army builder, if that's any indication of what's going to happen with these and Hasbro doesn't produce more to compensate then what you said is almost sure to happen - armybuilders ARE going to force the price up (or destroy the retailer's chances of selling the Stormie's case-mates which will be 3 times as much lost money for them).

Kyle Katarn
08-05-2004, 08:43 PM
Well, it might be a ripoff but I think VOTC is just too cool that I don't mind and I want to buy this figure.

arctangent
08-06-2004, 03:50 AM
I've imported photo files from Photoshop into Illustrator which works fine, but for some reason, importing Illustrator files into Photoshop doesn't work so well. I guess it's because Photoshop rasterizes the entire image and thus makes editing it a lot more difficult (which is odd because both Photoshop and Illustrator can handle paths, so why can't Photoshop read Illustrator paths?).

ANyways, I'm also a firm believer in the superiority of Macintosh computers over PCs.

you are right, if you import an entire illustrator eps image into photoshop via place file it rasterises it and you lose your paths, but if you copy a path from illustrator (ie. text in an outline format) and then go to photoshop and paste you should get an option to place as a path which allows you to keep your path and edit it if necessary. it can be a bit laborious that way because if you want to keep your paths separate, you have to copy and paste each path individually but it does work.

certainly for graphics, you can't beat macs. especially those new G5 dual processor jobbies - they fly with even the biggest photoshop files!


I didn't say it was EASY, I said it was doable (and not hard once you know the tools, which is an understatement but not a wild one). Someone with photoshop skills could remake every element on there just from the image of a vintage card on separate layers and then have a template to make whatever he wanted.

it is doable but pretty pointless in a commercial sense. why spend hours and hours retouching an image that you will never be able to reproduce as a quality print when it is quicker, easier and more cost effective to start from scratch. you can never get rid of the screen dots from printed matter scanned in properly - you can use the descreen filter in photoshop but that makes the image go blurry; you can try the unsharp mask filter but that just accentuates the dots. so you could do it that way, but as someone who has used photoshop in my professional life every day for the last ten years or so, i certainly wouldn't want the aggravation of doing that, only to end up with something that is not very good.

you could recreate any element of the original in photoshop if you really wanted to but text and text manipulation is not very good or flexible in photoshop which is where a program like illustrator comes in. if i had a decent photograph of the character from the packaging and a piece of packaging as reference, i could proably knock up a very good duplicate in a couple of hours or so from scratch.

also if you wanted to print your own cards, the thickness of card that the packaging is printed on is too thick to pass through a standard inkjet printer and, as i mentioned before unless this is sealed the ink will rub off because the card is glossy.


I've heard Corell Draw is good too, but I don't use either.

sorry, correll draw is a hideous program, definately not geared up for professional use. i have tried it and hated it.


So what? I think they did a much nicer job with the basic OTC cards really. Are you saying that they deserve more of our money because they were able to make an almost-exact duplicate of the cardfront only instead of using it as a starting point and going for there? I'd totally disagree, the OTC cards (fronts only) look great and have more imagination to them which requires more design both for the card graphics AND for the bubble trays which have to align the figures with the background images, and those don't cost ten bucks.

no, i wasn't using that as a justification for their higher cost. i was only commenting on the fact that they have done a nice job with the retro-packaging, from a design point of view.

you are lucky if you can get them for 10. here in the uk, these are going for 14.99 which is $22 - $24. we are being ripped off big time and consequently i will not be buying these. i just can't afford that amount of money :cry:

plasticfetish
08-06-2004, 05:12 AM
I'd have to agree that they've done a fine job with the packaging. The only problem that I have, is that the choke hazard sticker obscures the card. I kind of wonder why they couldn't put it on the side of the bubble maybe, or along the top.

BTW, not to drag this discussion out too much further, but there isn't anything going on with these cards that couldn't be done entirely with Photoshop as far as I'm concerned.

arctangent
08-06-2004, 06:27 AM
BTW, not to drag this discussion out too much further, but there isn't anything going on with these cards that couldn't be done entirely with Photoshop as far as I'm concerned.

true again. it could all be done with photoshop but when doing a piece of digital artwork you have to take into account speed and flexibility when deciding what program to use for any particular part of the job. that's why illustrator, in-design and quark exist - its better to do certain things in these programs.

if you do all your text in photoshop and then rasterize it, or flatten your layers, your text then becomes un-editable. if someone makes a change, you have big problems. sure, you can save the unflattened photoshop file but its easier and quicker to do something like that in illustrator where, unless you deliberately turn it into outlines, text is always editable. also in photoshop, you can't anchor your text to a baseline grid or anything like that.

sorry to go on about it, but you should use the right tools for the right job.

bigbarada
08-06-2004, 12:49 PM
true again. it could all be done with photoshop but when doing a piece of digital artwork you have to take into account speed and flexibility when deciding what program to use for any particular part of the job. that's why illustrator, in-design and quark exist - its better to do certain things in these programs.

if you do all your text in photoshop and then rasterize it, or flatten your layers, your text then becomes un-editable. if someone makes a change, you have big problems. sure, you can save the unflattened photoshop file but its easier and quicker to do something like that in illustrator where, unless you deliberately turn it into outlines, text is always editable. also in photoshop, you can't anchor your text to a baseline grid or anything like that.

sorry to go on about it, but you should use the right tools for the right job.

I agree, in theory, you could do just about anything in Photoshop given enough time; but time is not a luxury that package designers in the toy industry (or any industry) have.

In theory, you could also build an entire house with one hammer and some nails, but any professional construction worker would tell you that you are just asking for problems, unless you use the proper tools.

Anyways, back to the point, I'm not trying to say that the packaging justifies the higher cost of the figures. I'm just saying that the packaging is one of the reasons why I'm not too upset over said higher cost.

plasticfetish
08-06-2004, 03:52 PM
if you do all your text in photoshop and then rasterize it, or flatten your layers, your text then becomes un-editable. if someone makes a change, you have big problems. sure, you can save the unflattened photoshop file but its easier and quicker to do something like that in illustrator where, unless you deliberately turn it into outlines, text is always editable. also in photoshop, you can't anchor your text to a baseline grid or anything like that.Mmm, why would you rasterize or flatten your text in Photoshop? You can save it as an EPS file if you need to have it opened in Illustrator or Quark and maintain the vector data.

I agree, in theory, you could do just about anything in Photoshop given enough time; but time is not a luxury that package designers in the toy industry (or any industry) have.Understood, but I was looking at and talking about these cardbacks specifically. On the front, most everything is either a graphic or a photo. Once you've created a single basic template, the only time you'd spend after that on each card was changing the b/g image and the title text. Easily done as a layered PSD file -- and again, you could save it as a Photoshop EPS file to be opend in Quark for press purposes. The small amount of text that's there is exteremly basic.

Same thing with the back. There's more text, but again little of it would need to change from card to card and it's all very basic. So, you build your template in Photoshop and then change the layers around as needed. Save as an EPS file.

JediTricks
08-06-2004, 11:55 PM
no, i wasn't using that as a justification for their higher cost. i was only commenting on the fact that they have done a nice job with the retro-packaging, from a design point of view.

you are lucky if you can get them for 10. here in the uk, these are going for 14.99 which is $22 - $24. we are being ripped off big time and consequently i will not be buying these. i just can't afford that amount of money Oh, ok, that's exactly what I thought you were saying, that the work they put in there justified the double price.

As for price, we're paying $10, not 10, so it's even worse news for you. I tried last year to get Hasbro to talk about why they're so messed up with the foreign market, but they just shined me.

BTW, I didn't say I used Corell Draw, I found it to be totally unusable the last time I experienced it (which was like 7 years ago to be fair), I just said that's what I had heard. ;)



I'd have to agree that they've done a fine job with the packaging. The only problem that I have, is that the choke hazard sticker obscures the card. I kind of wonder why they couldn't put it on the side of the bubble maybe, or along the top.I am 99% sure the law says you have to have the warning on the front of the packaging. However, I bet you could simply open the packaging and remove the sticker from the inside once you got it home, I haven't bothered to try because I just don't care that much.



also in photoshop, you can't anchor your text to a baseline grid or anything like that.Are you sure? I thought any highlighted item could be anchored to the overlay grid. I've never done it, never thought about doing it even, but I remembered seeing that option available.


sorry to go on about it, but you should use the right tools for the right job.Keep in mind, we were originally talking about amateurs doing it for their own interests, and as PF said, Adobe Photoshop is quite capable for the job and the most well-known program, a lethal combination.

Veers
08-07-2004, 09:58 AM
I like these VOTC line. The price is worth it. The old vintage style card is what sells me. I love these. :)

arctangent
08-09-2004, 09:45 AM
Mmm, why would you rasterize or flatten your text in Photoshop? You can save it as an EPS file if you need to have it opened in Illustrator or Quark and maintain the vector data.

Understood, but I was looking at and talking about these cardbacks specifically. On the front, most everything is either a graphic or a photo. Once you've created a single basic template, the only time you'd spend after that on each card was changing the b/g image and the title text. Easily done as a layered PSD file -- and again, you could save it as a Photoshop EPS file to be opend in Quark for press purposes. The small amount of text that's there is exteremly basic.

i use photoshop 6.0 and illustrator 8.0. in these if you save a photoshop image as an eps file you cannot alter any part of the image and text comes out in outline form when opened illustrator, so you cannot edit it in any useful way. you also then lose your editable text when you re-open the file in photoshop. that's why most designers i know don't use photoshop for doing anything other than very, very basic text - you need to keep it in an editable form and if you have more than a few words in different places you end up with too many layer to be managable.

and you can't open an .eps photshop file in quarkexpress 4.0 (you have to import it as a picture in a picture box)


Same thing with the back. There's more text, but again little of it would need to change from card to card and it's all very basic. So, you build your template in Photoshop and then change the layers around as needed. Save as an EPS file.

another reason that i certainly wouldn't do the backs of the cards in photoshop is the memory they would take up - you get much larger files very rapidly and disk space and machine speed is always at a premium - you don't need photoshop slowing down because of overlarge file sizes. there is never any point in creating and using a larger file than necessary.

i doubt we will ever find out but i would wager whoever does the hasbro star wars packaging (whether its done in-house or not) doesn't do the entire job in photoshop. its just not how things are done in the world of graphic design. over the years i have produced thousands of pieces of artwork for print ranging from brochures to cd covers and i would say that 99% of them have involved a combination of quark, illustrator and photoshop, rather than just one of those alone.

Gonk 1979
08-10-2004, 09:56 PM
...I won't read through all of those ridiculously long posts, but I'll sum my thoughts up really quickly - if you don't like the price, don't buy them. Thats all. It seems like the majority of people complaining have BOUGHT the figs, and that makes no sense at all. If it's too much in your opinion then why did you buy it? Geez, way to put your foot down and make a stand. I bought them because I thought they were worth the $10. If you didn't think so and thought they were overpriced, then why did you buy them? This argument reminds me of the overweight people that sued Wendy's and McDonalds because they got obese from continually eating their food. Ummmm, do you have NO self restraint??? Take personal responsibility - if it breaks your bank or you think it's not worth it then DON'T GET IT!!! But I guarantee %95 of all the complainers have these same exact figs on their shelves......so if that includes you, then you need to just shut your yapper.

arctangent
08-11-2004, 03:58 AM
...I won't read through all of those ridiculously long posts, but I'll sum my thoughts up really quickly - if you don't like the price, don't buy them. Thats all. It seems like the majority of people complaining have BOUGHT the figs, and that makes no sense at all. If it's too much in your opinion then why did you buy it? Geez, way to put your foot down and make a stand. I bought them because I thought they were worth the $10. If you didn't think so and thought they were overpriced, then why did you buy them? This argument reminds me of the overweight people that sued Wendy's and McDonalds because they got obese from continually eating their food. Ummmm, do you have NO self restraint??? Take personal responsibility - if it breaks your bank or you think it's not worth it then DON'T GET IT!!! But I guarantee %95 of all the complainers have these same exact figs on their shelves......so if that includes you, then you need to just shut your yapper.

cheers for that gonk. i complained about their price because paying the equivalent of $22 - $25, rather than the equivalent of $10, here in the uk is just a rip off. hasbro is getting less and less of my money at the moment, as are the retailer who are bumping their prices because these are surposed to be limited in supply. i am sad that i won't own them but i am happy not to be ripped off.

JediTricks
08-11-2004, 09:43 PM
I don't WANT chlorine in my tapwater, but I don't have a choice - if it comes from the tap, it comes with chlorine. I can't afford to wash my dishes and bathe in bottled water and I can't afford an expensive filtration system to clean the water before it comes to me. If I want water, I have to take it with chlorine. Likewise, if I want this Stormtrooper, I have to buy it at $10. It's not a question of the figure's quality, it's only an issue of the figure's price, and I know that if I don't buy him the moment I see him, my keeping $10 out of Hasbro's hands won't mean spit because everybody else and his brother WILL buy him.

But I say this now, from the looks of things, it appears the stores will have enough trouble getting rid of Han & Obi-Wans, possibly Lukes too. That's a statement, I won't buy 2 of each there no matter how good I think they are and most collectors will probably do something similar, and they're just gonna sit and take up space.

jedi master sal
08-12-2004, 12:19 PM
Yikes JT, who peed in your coffee today...ha ha. I agree that I don't like paying the higher price, but I do anyway. I doubt these will go on sale anytime soon since there is still another wave or two (depending on where you live and what has shipped to your area) being shipped to stores. That means VOTC is going to be around at least until EPIII figs. Yes, I'm buying 2 of each. 1 carded 1 to open. Could I possibly save money later, I don't know and therein lies the problem at least in part. We know that collecting can be a game at times. Knowing when to buy or wait to buy for sales/clearances can be tricky. (That's why we check out these sites) Anyway, regarding the Stormtrooper, your darn right that once you see him, you better get him. I know I'm getting two of him, but I'm guessing that as long as I can afford it, I'll probably buy each one I come across. (Yes, I'm an Army Builder)

To ARC Tangent: very good explanations on the use of Photoshop, Illustrator and Quark. I too am a designer (actually I'm a Design and Pre-press Supervisor for the University of Pittsburgh) Anyway, I along with my staff use a varied amount of programs. In house we use all of the newest versions (Adobe CS) for Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign. I do have two folks who are staying with OS 9 for now, so they take the Quark and PageMaker files. I have two computers. One OS9 with the appropriate programs and another with OSX (10) with the "CS" programs. The later versions of Photoshop have some amazing filters effects etc. that you can very nearly take a scanned card and fix it for press with almost no degredation and the dots are either non exhistant or so hard to see that even using a "loop" it's hard to tell. Using InDesign, you can bring in layered Photoshop files and then text edit. (Although when submitting your files to a print shop you will need to flatten the photoshop files and relink them.) But the advantage is that you can edit a photoshop PSD file as well as view it in Indesign (even print a proof for approval). If the design needs to be changed, you change it without flattening and it's updated in InDesign and you can print another proof again.

BTW, I recreated the OTC packaging in a smaller scale for another project and it only tooks about 30 minutes. Everything was done in Illustrator with exception to the Character name and the Photo-which was manipulated in Photoshop. Why someone would only use Photoshop is beyond me. It's good for Raster based artwork but crap when it comes to vector.

Now, getting back on topic. I think why some are saying this particular VOTC figure is a ripoff is becuase they want to army build but don't want to pay the high price.

My example also goes to the SA Clone. I was lucky to find 4 where I'm at. Had I have seen more, I would have bought them up. Now, I go to eBay and I have a set limit on how much I'll pay for these, which is $10. Same price as VOTC. needless to say, I haven't won any SA Clones at my price, becuase some are willing to go higher.

That's another part of the problem. I believe that Hasbro knows these will go for more and that there is a huge secondary market, so they are trying to cash in as well. It is sad, becasue already VOTC is stinking the place in most stores in my area. Just about all of the collectors have the once elusive VOTC Luke, so he's going to start to pegwarm.

Anyway, back to the VOTC Stormie, I know that once I see these I'm getting then, because if I don't, they ARE going to be expensive on eBay. Maybe not twice as much, but watching the price of certain SW items as I have over the last year or so, it's fair to say that it is very possible that you'll seemingly se a shortage of VOTC Stormtrooper, that end up on eBay and sell for $25 or more each.

I think the "moral" of the story is, get them when you see them for $10 or either you won't get them at all, or pay through the nose on eBay later. Period.

You may not like it, neither do I. That's just the state of collecting today.

Gonk 1979
08-12-2004, 11:32 PM
I don't WANT chlorine in my tapwater, but I don't have a choice - if it comes from the tap, it comes with chlorine. I can't afford to wash my dishes and bathe in bottled water and I can't afford an expensive filtration system to clean the water before it comes to me. If I want water, I have to take it with chlorine. Likewise, if I want this Stormtrooper, I have to buy it at $10. It's not a question of the figure's quality, it's only an issue of the figure's price, and I know that if I don't buy him the moment I see him, my keeping $10 out of Hasbro's hands won't mean spit because everybody else and his brother WILL buy him.

But I say this now, from the looks of things, it appears the stores will have enough trouble getting rid of Han & Obi-Wans, possibly Lukes too. That's a statement, I won't buy 2 of each there no matter how good I think they are and most collectors will probably do something similar, and they're just gonna sit and take up space.



....ummm, there's a big difference between WATER and a TOY - one is a necessity and one is a luxury. You can't compare the two. I don't care how you phrase it, there is no "need" for a Star Wars toy. Some of you are acting like you guys had no choice in your purchase, and that's ridiculous. Those of you sitting here on the board complaining and moaning about the price of VOTC and actually purchased some need to look in the mirror. I'll respect someone who disagrees with me and says it's not worth $10 and therefore doesn't buy it - but you guys who complain that have these hanging on your walls need to check yourself....either you don't believe what you're saying or you're just looking for something to b*tch about. Like I said earlier, there is a thing called self restraint. No one is forcing you to buy these toys and you don't need them to sustain your life - they are a luxury.

mark2d2
08-13-2004, 01:03 AM
Hey guys! Okay, once again, I have to chime in here.
Personally, I'm beginning to think you are all whiny lot myself.

Why?

Well, I just cracked open my second VOTC fig. Han Solo.
This toys is flat out amazing. I never knew a 3 3/4 could be like this.
Seriously. It is a truly remarkable hunk of plastic.

It has so much personality. Just the ball jointed head alone. . .

I've been playing with it for over two hours and can't stop.
The articulation on this little guy is amazing.
Why, the possibilities are truly endless. . .

And so much detail. . . The vest appears to have been sculpted seperately.
The holster and belt, (while not removable) also independent of the waist.
Meaning you can even adjust this slightly.
Then there is the paint. Flawless. Love the little highlights in his hair. . .
The precision of the red stitching up the pant legs. . .

C'mon! Seriously! These toys are the best ever.
And for that alone well worth the extra coin.

Just my two cents. Er. . . $9.99. :D

plasticfetish
08-13-2004, 01:15 AM
Would it have been better if it were, say... $7.99?

JediTricks
08-13-2004, 01:31 AM
Some of you are acting like you guys had no choice in your purchase, and that's ridiculous.You're missing the point Gonk, that is still how we feel, trapped and ripped-off, and Hasbro takes customer satisfaction and "value for the money" greatly into account with every product they make, so by opening this to discussion of how we feel we are in essence creating a marketing dynamic, a cross-section of collectors, talking out the opinion of the group. True, we don't HAVE to buy it, but if we feel it's a worthy basic figure and want it very badly, then we have a right to discuss our potential purchase on these merits - and the whole point of this thread is that this Stormtrooper may be nice but is no nicer than other BASIC $5 figures that have been recently released and therefore on the purchase merits is a poor value.


I'll respect someone who disagrees with me and says it's not worth $10 and therefore doesn't buy itYou mean like the dozens of VOTC Han and Obi-Wans sitting on the pegs at Target Pasadena today? Or the 12" OTC Lukes at that store? Or the other stores that also have a bunch of those figs not moving right now? But of course those are easier to pass up, it's this Stormtrooper that everybody and his grandfather will want because it IS superior to all previous comers.


Mark, I'm glad you dig your VOTC Han. I'm not especially charmed with the head m'self, it's no more successful than Saga Lando Skiff IMO (which is good but too squared-off and exposed thanks to the articulation). However, your post proves something important about this thread, you say you never knew a 3.75" figure could be like that... but what about the SA Clonetrooper, who has even MORE articulation and poseability at half the price?

Mr Fett
08-13-2004, 01:57 AM
The main reason i started this post was because in reality it is an overpriced figure compared to others regardles of how nice the package looks and etc.
to me what's inside it's what counts and looking closely to the figure it just looks as if hasbro jos made a new stormtrooper head and put it in a SA body

mark2d2
08-13-2004, 02:07 AM
This may come as a real shock. . .

But I don't own even a single, solitary Clonetrooper.
Superarticulated or otherwise.

I just HATED this design with a passion.
The whole Stormtrooper meets Bobafett is just. . . well, utterly lame.

It's like an uncreative fanboy's wetdream or something.
Profoundly uninspired. And just weak, weak, weak.

Imagine, for a moment, how jarring it would have been had they all simply been. . .
S T O R M T R O O P E R S ! ! !
The irony of all those loyal footsoldiers of the Empire swooping in to save the Jedi. . .

It would have blown everybody away.

Sadly, the new films never seem to do that anymore.
Nobody is ever blown away. Not the masses anyway.

Besides, now that it's confirmed what's his name dubbed all the stormtroopers lines for the continued bastardization of what were once true pieces of art, there seems to be even less reason for the two different designs. . .

What? Does the Emperor simply get bored with their look?
Did Vader dabble in fashion design from time to time?

It also made Bobafett a whole lot less cool.
All the mystery is gone. All the magic.

But I digress. I keep trying to like the prequels. I really do.
I own them on DVD. But I never, ever watch them.
And when I do I never make it all the way through.

Thank God for the OT. And now the VOTC.

PS --- As much as I like Han's headsculpt, I was not clear here.
What gives him all the personality, is the ball joint.
I love how he can simply look every which way.

jedi master sal
08-13-2004, 12:38 PM
This may come as a real shock. . .

But I don't own even a single, solitary Clonetrooper.
Superarticulated or otherwise.

I just HATED this design with a passion.
The whole Stormtrooper meets Bobafett is just. . . well, utterly lame.

It's like an uncreative fanboy's wetdream or something.
Profoundly uninspired. And just weak, weak, weak.

I don't mind one bit. I think it's a cool design and have now over 250 clones.


Imagine, for a moment, how jarring it would have been had they all simply been. . .
S T O R M T R O O P E R S ! ! !
The irony of all those loyal footsoldiers of the Empire swooping in to save the Jedi. . .

That would have been cool too, but I suspect the "new" look of the clones was to introduce something special and seperate from the OT. Similar but different. Looking at it from a "real" POV, even our own military has changed uniforms over the years. (I still don't like the hybrid clone helmet for epiii, but what the heck, I'll still buy them.)




It also made Bobafett a whole lot less cool.
All the mystery is gone. All the magic.

hard to disagree with this comment. I don't feel they are a emotionally inspiring as the OT. It's more about EYE candy. (But I like candy...)


But I digress. I keep trying to like the prequels. I really do.
I own them on DVD. But I never, ever watch them.
And when I do I never make it all the way through.

You realize of course you just contradicted yourself here. You say you never, EVER watch them, but when you DO...shame shame. heh heh


PS --- As much as I like Han's headsculpt, I was not clear here.
What gives him all the personality, is the ball joint.
I love how he can simply look every which way.

So you like playing with his ball............joint. Funny, I never thought a toy coudl have personality. I could never play with his ball....joint. Okay, so I'm being sophmoric here.

But on the "real", I've opened one each of Han, Leia, Luke and Obi VOTC. They are nice, but not worth $10. At least with Luke you get a great soft good shirt. Obi's outer robe is nice, but it's been done before, in the Jedi Starfighter figure and the Geonosian Accessory pack. While I like the articulation of the VOTC, and the packaging IS nice, the pricetag just isn't justified by the product.

But, we all are smart enough to know that the likelyhood of these coming down in price any tiem soon on clearances is highly unlikely, so we feel that this higher price WAS shoved down our throats. If we don't buy now, there could be a chance that we never find them again or at least in mint condition on the pegs.

So, we do have a right to complain about the price, even when we have already purchased the items. I mean come on be real. Many of us are impatient to buy new stuff, and we want it mint. Waiting until it MIGHT go on clearance, again unlikely, to find these mint, is a risk. I've been burned before waiting. I'm not risking it just to save a couple of dollars, when I KNOW, I can get one mint now and not have to really hunt later, or lord forbid shop on eBay...

Kidhuman
08-13-2004, 03:45 PM
Many of us are impatient to buy new stuff, and we want it mint. Waiting until it MIGHT go on clearance, again unlikely, to find these mint, is a risk. I've been burned before waiting. I'm not risking it just to save a couple of dollars, when I KNOW, I can get one mint now and not have to really hunt later, or lord forbid shop on eBay...

Exactly why I preordered all mine. I dont want to have to hunt these down and have to shop for them on Ebay. I'll pay the extra now and guarntee myself them. :D :beard:

JediTricks
08-13-2004, 10:19 PM
Mark, I agree with you about the lameness of the Clonetrooper design, though I'm not as passionate about it and actually bought a few m'self.

I see what you mean about the joint allowing more personality from the range, but I wish they could fulfil this without hampering the look of the necks and heads.


I'd like to get back to an earlier point...

Some of you are acting like you guys had no choice in your purchase, and that's ridiculous.... I'll respect someone who disagrees with me and says it's not worth $10 and therefore doesn't buy itThis is not "I don't like the new price of Tide so I'm only buying Cheer", we are Star Wars collectors, we're posting on a Star Wars collecting site, this is a Star Wars item, and while we might not NEED this for our human survival, this IS a Star Wars collectible that is of superior quality and this is the only way known to get it, so it is a "must have" for many of us within the context that it is a SW item and we here are SW collectors.

mark2d2
08-13-2004, 11:05 PM
Interesting. I don't think the neck or head are nearly as noticeable as say, the elbows as far as marring appearance.

Anyway, I hear you on the price issue. Hey, each of these figs sets me back $20. As I HAVE to have one loose and one carded. I haven't bought any figures that I intend to keep carded for a long, long time. And so I don't worry about it. Maybe my lack of desire to be a completist with the rest of the line has me mellower than most.

Right now, I truly only buy what I feel I absolutely have to have. Meaning this year, it's been Threepio with Escape Pod and R1-G4. Seriously, I have been frugal. I loved a lot of the Hoth wave, but just was like, do i REALLY need that? (I would like an R3-P0 but havent' found one.) And now the VOTC is a must have. Out comes the wallet.

And so far though, I am glad to pay it. As I am more than blown away by the sheer quality of these toys. They absolutely blow all the silly Episode 2 toys I bought out of the water. There is simply no comparison. Also, I truly do feel that these will be the "definitive" versions. I can't imagine what would ever make me buy another Classic Han. Seriously.

Deoxyribonucleic
08-13-2004, 11:15 PM
Mark2D2...looks like you and I are the only ones who don't like clonetroopers.

I think they are ridiculous looking. :o

mark2d2
08-14-2004, 12:48 AM
Mark2D2...looks like you and I are the only ones who don't like clonetroopers.

I think they are ridiculous looking. :o

In honor of our mutual dislike of the Clones, I posted another story in your Memories thread over in the Vintage section. And think that this one could seriously be the best yet.

Be sure to check out. . . RETURN OF THE BLUE SNAGGLETOOTH. :crazed:

PS -- Keeping this thread on topic, I must say I agree, the VOTC Stormtrooper WILL be a ripoff. In that I defininitely will RIP him OFF the card. lol

Gonk 1979
08-17-2004, 10:35 PM
Mark, I agree with you about the lameness of the Clonetrooper design, though I'm not as passionate about it and actually bought a few m'self.

I see what you mean about the joint allowing more personality from the range, but I wish they could fulfil this without hampering the look of the necks and heads.


I'd like to get back to an earlier point...
This is not "I don't like the new price of Tide so I'm only buying Cheer", we are Star Wars collectors, we're posting on a Star Wars collecting site, this is a Star Wars item, and while we might not NEED this for our human survival, this IS a Star Wars collectible that is of superior quality and this is the only way known to get it, so it is a "must have" for many of us within the context that it is a SW item and we here are SW collectors.


...you said it yourself - the VOTC is of SUPERIOR quality, so wouldn't you agree that it's worth more than a basic figure? And don't keep bringing up the one SA Clonetrooper - Hasbro can afford to throw in one high quality figure in the rotation here and there for $5 and not lose money, but releasing a 12 figure set requires a price increase.
Also, you definition of "must have" is skewed. There are plenty of Star Wars related toys out there that I'm sure you and others passed on, being it deluxe figures or 12 inch. None of us is a complete-completist, if there is such a thing. So if there is an overpriced toy I don't feel bad in skipping it. I mean, looking at your statements it's pretty clear you think it's worth the $10 - anyone who bought it must think so or they are an idiot. Sorry to put it so bluntly, but rationale people don't pay for things they don't feel are worth their value. If you think VOTC is of "superior quality", than isn't it worth the extra cost???

JediTricks
08-17-2004, 10:56 PM
...you said it yourself - the VOTC is of SUPERIOR quality, so wouldn't you agree that it's worth more than a basic figure? You misunderstand because I didn't make it clear, I meant it's superior to the previous Stormtrooper figure.


And don't keep bringing up the one SA Clonetrooper - Hasbro can afford to throw in one high quality figure in the rotation here and there for $5 and not lose money, but releasing a 12 figure set requires a price increase. 1) The SA Clone goes to the very heart of this thread, re-read the opening post.

2) The SA clone is not beyond the Hasbro profit margin, they didn't lose money on it, it got as big a release as Hasbro could get out of CW wave 3 - Target even ended up clearancing that wave soon after its arrival. Hasbro said the Ephant Mon figure didn't lose them money, it just didn't come in under their profit margin and thus had a very limited release. Examine how much product comes with Saga Bespin Luke, Luke Throne Room, Ack-Med Beq, Elan Sleazebaggano, etc., these figures had probably double the amount of product that this figure in raw materials and manufacturing yet still sold at the $5 MSRP.

3) Hasbro has said that a large part of their costs is packaging, therefore a 12-piece set of superior figures probably would not cost more if they didn't have "special" packaging.


None of us is a complete-completist, if there is such a thing. I may not be a complete completist in this modern Hasbro line anymore, but there are some here on this site that post every day, so some of "us" still are.


Also, you definition of "must have" is skewed. There are plenty of Star Wars related toys out there that I'm sure you and others passed on, being it deluxe figures or 12 inch.... So if there is an overpriced toy I don't feel bad in skipping it. I mean, looking at your statements it's pretty clear you think it's worth the $10 - anyone who bought it must think so or they are an idiot. Sorry to put it so bluntly, but rationale people don't pay for things they don't feel are worth their value. I don't think it is skewed at all, we're not talking about some esoteric background character who can only be seen half off the screen like Kitik Keed'Kak (which I might point out people screamed about when it got only a small Asian market release) or the $80 Fambaa incident, so I think it is an accurate statement to say that this Stormtrooper will be a must-have for most of us, and that as a must-have that is $10 instead of $5 (as opposed to the $80 instead of $40 of the Fambaa issue) we will be able to swallow the price difference because it is cheaper to pay the extra five bucks than to miss out... but that does NOT make it right.


If you think VOTC is of "superior quality", than isn't it worth the extra cost??? You asked that already, first thing out of the gate in the quoted post, and I responded and clarified.

plasticfetish
08-18-2004, 02:14 AM
Hasbro said the Ephant Mon figure didn't lose them money, it just didn't come in under their profit margin and thus had a very limited release.At the Comic-Con Q&A, they pretty much said that they "lost their shirts" on that one. They were telling how they still get hassled about it and we were really lucky to have gotten it at all. (But, they would consider re-releasing it as a deluxe some day -- perhaps.)

AmanaMatt
08-18-2004, 11:41 AM
I'll back up that Hasbro-Ephant Mon comment; they said they lost money at last year's con, and this year.

Ok, here's my two cents: if this were an ongoing series of figs, $10 would be outrageous. Since we are getting only 12 in a 'limited' run, $10 is not awful - I feel the Stormtrooper is worth it, 'cause as cool as the SA Clonetrooper is - and it is great, a SA Stormtrooper is 100 times more cool, but that is just my opionion, so, I do not mind the extra $5 for one less point of articulation on that bad boy; also, as a counterpoint on the loss of a articulated wrist, we gain a working holster, so the equality of these two sculpts are on par with one another.

Dave_Cameron
08-18-2004, 12:06 PM
Since we are getting only 12 in a 'limited' run, $10 is not awful - I feel the Stormtrooper is worth it, 'cause as cool as the SA Clonetrooper is - and it is great, a SA Stormtrooper is 100 times more cool, but that is just my opionion, so, I do not mind the extra $5 for one less point of articulation on that bad boy

If you think about the limited run, in conjunction with the development of the outer shell and the one-off series cardback, all of that stuff adds up! I really think that the whole line was a give and take. There were certain things they couldn't gives us and certain things they could. It would be so unreasonable for them to put different figures out for different prices when they are in the same line. They did the best they could and this is really pandering to collectors and not the general market.

Gonk 1979
08-18-2004, 12:31 PM
I'll back up that Hasbro-Ephant Mon comment; they said they lost money at last year's con, and this year.

Ok, here's my two cents: if this were an ongoing series of figs, $10 would be outrageous. Since we are getting only 12 in a 'limited' run, $10 is not awful - I feel the Stormtrooper is worth it, 'cause as cool as the SA Clonetrooper is - and it is great, a SA Stormtrooper is 100 times more cool, but that is just my opionion, so, I do not mind the extra $5 for one less point of articulation on that bad boy; also, as a counterpoint on the loss of a articulated wrist, we gain a working holster, so the equality of these two sculpts are on par with one another.



At the Comic-Con Q&A, they pretty much said that they "lost their shirts" on that one. They were telling how they still get hassled about it and we were really lucky to have gotten it at all. (But, they would consider re-releasing it as a deluxe some day -- perhaps.)


If you think about the limited run, in conjunction with the development of the outer shell and the one-off series cardback, all of that stuff adds up! I really think that the whole line was a give and take. There were certain things they couldn't gives us and certain things they could. It would be so unreasonable for them to put different figures out for different prices when they are in the same line. They did the best they could and this is really pandering to collectors and not the general market.


.....thank you very much. I, too, remember Hasbro talking about how Ephant Mon lost them money, as it was very well reported on these forums.....I don't know what Jedi Tricks is talking about. There are some very special and well made figs that come out every once in a while for $5 that I'm sure Hasbro puts more $ into, Ephant Mon being one of them along with SA Clone, Commtech Stormie, etc. And it's not all spent on actual packaged material - it takes more time to design a figure with 14 points of articulation than one with 6 - and more TIME equals more MONEY. You have to agree that every once in a while Hasbro slips us a figure thats worth more than $5, and thats ok - EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE. A whole line of these figures would make Hasbro lose money, which is why we are paying $10 for the VOTC. I'm done arguing seeing as it's only Jedi Tricks who is giving the rebuttal and the majority seem to agree with me, or atleast if they don't they seem to agree that whining about the cost of a figure you actually bought is downright dumb.

dindae
08-18-2004, 12:49 PM
I don't see this as a ripoff. I could do without the packaging but I have seen it bring a few people back to collecting so I guess it works. The fact is if you buy it then it is worth $10 to you for whatever reason be it not to have a hole in your collection to it being the best figure you ever saw. At first I was not thrilled about 12 resculpts but now that I see them I must confess I like them. All of them are improvements over any sculpts we have now. Now if you want to talk ripoffs then look at the 12" vintage line. $10 increase with none of them being terrible better in my opinion.

mark2d2
08-18-2004, 01:23 PM
Okay, I now have the first three figures open as well as carded. . .

These guys are all outstanding pieces. So much so that they simply blow all previous attempts at these classic characters out of the water. Han and Leia especially. Talk about posability! Sure, Ben is the "weak" link. But even he is pretty remarkable. It's just that Han and Leia are such strong efforts. I can't believe how many ways these two can look flat out amazing. After all the "one pose wonders" that have dominated the ATOC figs (Jedi especially) these "ultimate" versions certainly seem to very much be just that.

Between the packaging and this greatly, greatly improved quality, these toys are BARGAINS in my book !

The day that all standard ($5) figures have between 12 - 18 points of articulation and come on groovy Vintage card facsimilies. . . then . . . and only then will I label any of the VOTC a rip off. :sur:

For I simply don't remember the last time I felt so good about the money I was blowing on Star Wars toys. . . Maybe it was when I picked up the TIE BOMBER. I am loving these guys and, frankly, modern collecting has NEVER been this much fun ! ! ! I don't know when I wanted to "play" with my toys so much either. . . yep, it's been a long, long time.

JEDIpartner
08-18-2004, 03:13 PM
Yeah... those are good deffo. I'm still diggin' "Big Head" Luke since I found him the other day!

Gonk 1979
08-18-2004, 04:52 PM
The fact is if you buy it then it is worth $10 to you for whatever reason be it




Another good point that I'm trying to make to Jedi Tricks.



....is it just me, or does personal responsibility factor in somewhere here? I don't condemn the people who believe that these figs are not worth $10 and don't buy them, but the people that sit here and complain about the prices of VOTC and have actually bought them. I hate hearing "well, we're collectors and if the price is higher we have no choice but to get it because we MUST have it for our collection". People that do that are the ones that keeps scalpers like Brian's Toys in business. If you feel it's too much and not worth it - don't get it. Don't sit here and complain about it after you've already spent your money and advocated the high costs to the manufacturer. Personally, I never blame the manufacturer or the retail company scalping items or toys - I blame the purchaser. In a free market society, if you can sell something for $10 and it SELLS, than you cannot blame the retailer. That's called CAPITALISM. If the item is conceived to be overpriced by the public, then it generally does not sell - yet these VOTC are flying off the racks, and the majority of posters here seem to feel the $10 is justified. Me? I think it's worth $10 so I bought it. If I didnt, I wouldn't have no matter what collection I must complete - and you can't tell me that you don't already have a farmboy Luke or Stormtrooper in your collection already. So what that tells me is that these figures stand out from the everyday $5 basic fig.

JediTricks
08-18-2004, 09:44 PM
At the Comic-Con Q&A, they pretty much said that they "lost their shirts" on that one. They were telling how they still get hassled about it and we were really lucky to have gotten it at all. (But, they would consider re-releasing it as a deluxe some day -- perhaps.) I was told that the clarification on that answer was that they didn't LOSE money, it just didn't actually come in within their profit margin. That's what I was told, it could be wrong though.


If you think about the limited run, in conjunction with the development of the outer shell and the one-off series cardback, all of that stuff adds up!First off, both of those are things that Hasbro chose to do, they didn't need to do any of those things. Second, I question how "limited" this run really is, if it has between 50,000 and 100,000 pieces each and it's not exclusive to any 1 retailer, that's not "limited" at all, that's a full-sized run, and I suspect that these have at least 50k units each to fulfill orders from 4 major retail chains (TRU, WM, Target, & Kmart). So that just leaves the issue of the packaging, and I'll fall back on my "that's what Hasbro chose to do" answer, pointing out that they would have sold more units with a lower price and no overly-expensive packaging gimmicks.



You have to agree that every once in a while Hasbro slips us a figure thats worth more than $5 I'll have to assume you don't mean me in that quote, but I'll respond anyway - the basic Star Wars line is one of the poorer values on the market from the perspective of a toy buyer rather than a SW collector. These toys are smaller, have less paint applications, less accessories, and often less articulation than many other lines out there, this is a large part of why Hasbro couldn't make the $6 and $7 pricepoints work for this line - general customers did not see value for their money and walked away, the line suffered and nearly folded.


In a free market society, if you can sell something for $10 and it SELLS, than you cannot blame the retailer. That's called CAPITALISM. If the item is conceived to be overpriced by the public, then it generally does not sell Yet capitalism has checks and balances in the form of anti-monopoly laws to ensure that no one company can control a market. And Hasbro has that control over this market.

Gonk 1979
08-18-2004, 11:59 PM
Yet capitalism has checks and balances in the form of anti-monopoly laws to ensure that no one company can control a market. And Hasbro has that control over this market.


I swear you are the biggest drama-queen out there. "Hasbro has monopolized the market!" and "We collectors feel trapped!". C'mon, give it a break - in the end these are still toys that you have absolutely no obligation to buy. You seem to be the only person out there who is throwing a hissy over the cost of the VOTC. Most posters seem to think Hasbro is justified in their $10 retail - I'd say %90 of the posts I've read, and the ones that don't think they are worth $10 just didn't buy them. It seems to me that you are the only one who felt "obligated" to buy these figs despite believing they are not worth the price. Don't you realize that buying what you deem "overpriced" figures is only advocating what you are criticizing? That it's only making Hasbro think "Hey, we can make a whole line of these guys, but since they sold so well let's up it to $12.00". If your desire for a toy outweighs your economic principles than you need to get your priorities straight, don't you think??? I'm sorry, but when it comes to a luxury, be it my passion of Star Wars collecting or not, I won't let my common sense override my material desire. If you were so adament in your opinion of these toys being overpriced then you would have abstained from buying them to send a message to Hasbro.

Personally, even if I had the CHOICE I would have wanted these to be retailed at $10 rather than $5. Why? Because if they were $5 then I know I wouldn't be able to find them at retail as every ebay scalper and collector would scoop up multiples. And that would mean in the end I would probably be paying close to twenty bucks to get it off of Ebay or Kebco. Face the facts - if these were $5 you would never find them and be "forced" to pay scalper prices.

plasticfetish
08-19-2004, 04:29 AM
I was told that the clarification on that answer was that they didn't LOSE money, it just didn't actually come in within their profit margin. That's what I was told, it could be wrong though.Who knows? By "lost their shirts" they could have simply meant "didn't make as much as they wanted." I don't think they can complain too much though -- that figure in particular generated a huge amount of hype, around about the time that most of us were being pretty critical about the Saga line.

Speaking of criticism, Gonk 1979, try to remember -- part of the reason we're all here doing this, is because we're all really just a bunch of toy collecting nerds that like to discuss and debate the many qualities of a given toy or toy line. No matter how pointless the criticism might seem, like when I say, hmm, that I think the OTC #10 Vader figure is a total piece of garbage, and that I'm stunned and saddened that they'd choose to re-release it as part of the OTC line -- well, I'm having fun. :) If you just wanna sit around and only say and hear, "Hey, that one's a great one!" then you could do that alone with your toys.

If your desire for a toy outweighs your economic principles than you need to get your priorities straight, don't you think???I think you're overcomplicating the situation just a little here. The criticism is simply that -- these toys are priced a few dollars higher than other toys of relatively equal quality ONLY because they are a "collectable." That's about it, no big long debate required. JT's thoughts, and mine for that matter, where that Hasbro could have just as easily tossed these out for $7.99 (or $6.99) and still made a decent profit -- but instead, they're marketing these at $10 based on the fact that they're part of a very "limited release."

I'll admit right now, I have bought 3 of them so far, I will buy more if I can find them in decent shape, but I'm probably not going to buy doubles of each to open -- it's just too expensive.

I don't see as how the packaging could have cost any more to produce than the regular OTC packaging -- if it did, we're probably talking about a fraction of a cent per item. I don't see that much difference in quality and detail from many of the best figures that we'd gotten over the past two years -- like the SA Clone for instance. And honestly, given the number of Hans and Obi-Wans that I'm seeing, I'm doubting the fact that this run was all that "limited." (I've yet to find a decent Leia though, but I'm sure that's another problem.)

So, again, it's not a matter of "worth" -- because in the long run, as this line relates to us all as collectors, they're easily "worth" the price. It's simply a matter of "value," which is something else. As far as JT's concerned (me too) the price of the figure effects how we rate the toy on the whole. Value factors in to the overall "grade" that we'd give a figure, but this really only applies to new toys. These are pre-designed to be collectables, and as such, they're long term "worth" is apparently more important than their immediate value, which to me, sucks just a little bit. Does that make sense?

If they had been $7.99 then they'd be perfect. As is, at $10 they're just --very cool looking packaged figures that I won't have loose until I start finding them on clearance in six months. ;) At that point, I'll tell you what I think about them as toys, and not just as collectables.

Kidhuman
08-19-2004, 07:22 AM
The only way I see the packaging costing more is they dont run the type of packaging like the saga cards. They were produced in a limited run. Where as the saga card was used for just about every figure in the line(a few minor changes to the card, but used for at least one year and 50 figures instead of 12 ). If this was the case, OTC should have cost more as well, so that rules out the packaging notion. If it was a hard outer case, instead of soft plastic, the I could see it, but its not, so they could have sold them for less than 10 bucks, and I say 6-8 dollars would have been fine.

Deoxyribonucleic
08-19-2004, 11:03 AM
I think you're overcomplicating the situation just a little here. The criticism is simply that -- these toys are priced a few dollars higher than other toys of relatively equal quality ONLY because they are a "collectable." That's about it, no big long debate required. JT's thoughts, and mine for that matter, where that Hasbro could have just as easily tossed these out for $7.99 (or $6.99) and still made a decent profit -- but instead, they're marketing these at $10 based on the fact that they're part of a very "limited release."



I'll third that opinion!

Like I said in a prior post, it's anyones right to complain, it's what humans do...if you don't like what they are complaining about, simply don't read that thread...I mean the title says it all for crying out loud. If people have such a problem with this thread, go start your own anti-votc stormtrooper complaining thread.

And what's worse, the people who complain about the votc stormtrooper or the people who complain about the complaining?? :stupid:


;) :kiss:

Mr Fett
08-19-2004, 01:38 PM
i'm not complaining abiout the complaining
:D

dindae
08-19-2004, 01:42 PM
I think I will start a thread about complaining about how complainers complain about other complainers complaining about complaints made by complainers. :p

Mr Fett
08-19-2004, 01:44 PM
Don't someone might complain
:crazed:

Deoxyribonucleic
08-19-2004, 03:14 PM
EXCELLENT!

I was hoping you crazy katz would answer just as such! :D

We can always count on our geeky selves to break the ice! This thread was getting a little hot :smoker: for such a silly topic! :crazed:

Gonk 1979
08-19-2004, 03:43 PM
Plastic Fetish, I think you're missing my point. Have you read my previous posts?? I'm all for complaining or criticizing figures - everyone has done it. I just think it's moronic to complain about something being overpriced and costing so much and then buying it. What does that accomplish??? If it's overpriced in your opinion, then why buy it? And then why complain about it once you've bought it? Doing so only supports what you're complaining about - it shows to Hasbro that their $10 asking price is justified. Sure, you might not like all the rehashes and what not, but do you buy them? And if you do, what sense does it make to complain about it afterwards? If you don't like rehashes, don't buy them and Hasbro will get the point and no longer market them. Me being overdramatic? I'm not the one who said that collectors are "trapped" and that Hasbro has "monopolized" the market.
IF you read my earlier posts and had any business sense you would realize that releasing a high quality figure here and there, like Ephant Mon, SA clonetrooper, etc. is a viable option if you do it every once in a while. You have to admit Hasbro throws in a figure worth more than $5 every now and then, and that's feasible. Making a whole line of figures with 14 points of articulation, a new cardback, and a plastic casing, however, is NOT feasible. And it's not just the casing, new cardback, and articulation - it's the time associated with making these, and time is MONEY. Designing a figure with 14 points of articulation versus one with 6 takes a lot more design time.
Again, I'm not against complaining about stuff. Complain all you want - but stand by your complaints. Don't say "Geez, these aren't worth $10!! It's a ripoff!" and then go to Walmart and pick them up and come back on the forums and complain some more.

Plastic Fetish, you said Hasbro could release these for $6.99 and still make a profit, but how do you know that? Do you have Hasbro's budgetary report right in front of you??? You're just speculating - and speculating on a toy that you haven't even opened, at that. How can you tell looking at the package that it's quality isn't all that much better than a basic fig? From all the accounts from people who HAVE opened these up, they report that they are far superior to the basic figs, and are some of the best 4-inchers to ever come out. So, on those two fronts atleast you are SPECULATING, nothing more.

Kidhuman
08-19-2004, 04:46 PM
Because if Hasbro made the G.I Joe figures for years with Swivel arm grip and sold those for 4.99 why not these? 5.00 for a plastic casing is ludacris.

Mr Fett
08-19-2004, 04:46 PM
I started this thread and believe me i have not gone to walliworld and got one like i said in the begining they are over priced and helsbro will not get this fans money, I'm sure is a nice figure and and package and shell and etc.... but imo still overpriced by a few dollars, by the way it only has 13 points vs 14 for the SA clone.
Also all this crap of diffrent pakages and bubles and extra s*** is exactly what sent Marvel, DC, Image and all those companies to the brink of extinction with the comic book gimics, I would not want the same to happen to my beloved hobby of star wars collecting

dindae
08-19-2004, 05:24 PM
Because if Hasbro made the G.I Joe figures for years with Swivel arm grip and sold those for 4.99 why not these? 5.00 for a plastic casing is ludacris.

The main reason is they have to pay for that big fat Star Wars licensing agreement.

Gonk 1979
08-19-2004, 05:40 PM
The main reason is they have to pay for that big fat Star Wars licensing agreement.



....there's a good point too. There are many factors that come into the price of any product. It's not always what's in the package. Another factor is the recent decline in sales for SW figures in general. If the figures aren't selling as good, and distribution has slacked, then maybe a higher price is needed to keep the Star Wars line in business, whereas when the POTF2 years were booming I think Hasbro could have afforded a cheaper retail then. It's just like all the reports of Hasbro upping the EP3 line's price point - interest in collecting has waned and there's not so much demand, and that requires more revenue per purchase. There's a lot more than just what's on the surface, and really it all comes down to you. See, I respect the above poster who said that the price is too high and so he refuses to get it - that's standing by what you preach.

I just don''t think we can sit here and speculate at what price point Hasbro could sell something for and maintain a profit because NONE of us know, so the only thing you can go on is if the figure is worth it to yourself.

Kidhuman
08-19-2004, 06:10 PM
If they want to keep price down, go back to nuetral posed figures with good articulation and stop with the damn action features.

Mr Fett
08-19-2004, 08:47 PM
If they want to keep price down, go back to nuetral posed figures with good articulation and stop with the damn action features.I second that Keep them nutral and stop the gimic (SP) Cr**

JediTricks
08-20-2004, 12:57 AM
The only way I see the packaging costing more is they dont run the type of packaging like the saga cards. They were produced in a limited run. Where as the saga card was used for just about every figure in the line(a few minor changes to the card, but used for at least one year and 50 figures instead of 12 ). If this was the case, OTC should have cost more as well, so that rules out the packaging notion.The printed cardboard stuff, I don't think that is a major factor in packaging costs, they run a lot of changes in every given line and it doesn't seem to bother them at all. I believe the research into the proper images and the layouts cost more to pay people to do that work which took longer than making up a new one. I think Hasbro's big packaging costs are in the plastic elements, so the bubble, tray, and outer softcase are the highest costs for the packaging because they require actual molds and designing a simple item around the figures. Of course, the soft cases don't change from figure to figure, but the coffin blister bubbles and their trays do change (there's also the shipping cases, but breaking that down is more complicated because they hold several figures at once). In any case, these costs are even $2 a figure though because that would be outside of their profit margin all by itself.



Me being overdramatic? I'm not the one who said that collectors are "trapped" and that Hasbro has "monopolized" the market. I didn't say they were trapped, get your facts straight and don't put words into my mouth, I said that's how some collectors FEEL. And re-read what I said about the monopoly, I said it before and I'll say it again, we're not talking about disliking the price of Coke so you only buy Pepsi, there is only 1 company making this toy and we cannot get it anywhere else - that is by definition a monopoly on Star Wars action figures and this item in particular, you brought up the capitalism and I simply responded with that fact.

plasticfetish
08-20-2004, 02:40 AM
Plastic Fetish, I think you're missing my point. Have you read my previous posts??Yep. You think it's silly to complain about the price, especially if you go out and buy them anyway. Sure maybe it is, maybe this whole toy collecting thing in general is silly, but that's not the point. I thought I made my point -- I'm not sure if you read it or "got" it, but... eh, whatever.

I think maybe we're just talking about a difference of terms here. You call it "complaining" and I call it "criticism." The price -- in this case -- is not enough to scare me away from the entire VOTC line, it's simply enough to make me rate the line as a whole as imperfect.


What does that accomplish??? If it's overpriced in your opinion, then why buy it? And then why complain about it once you've bought it? Doing so only supports what you're complaining about - it shows to Hasbro that their $10 asking price is justified.I suppose, but I also think that the reviews and opinions that we ALL share here have an effect on the way the line progresses. I'm pretty sure that Hasbro reads what we all write here, and one thing that I'd like them to read, is that they made some nice toys (I told them that in person at Comic-Con) and I will buy them, but it would have been better if they were a little less expensive. Simple enough?

As far as "rehashes" goes -- I could care less.

You misread my post, I never said you were "over dramatic."


IF you read my earlier posts and had any business sense you would realize that releasing a high quality figure here and there, like Ephant Mon, SA clonetrooper, etc. is a viable option if you do it every once in a while.That sounds a lot like the comment I made to JediTricks before, about Ephant Mon -- and I gave reasons why -- so I think we agree.


Plastic Fetish, you said Hasbro could release these for $6.99 and still make a profit, but how do you know that? Do you have Hasbro's budgetary report right in front of you??? You're just speculating - and speculating on a toy that you haven't even opened, at that. How can you tell looking at the package that it's quality isn't all that much better than a basic fig? From all the accounts from people who HAVE opened these up, they report that they are far superior to the basic figs, and are some of the best 4-inchers to ever come out. So, on those two fronts atleast you are SPECULATING, nothing more.Well, I suppose you're right, I am just speculating about Hasbro being able to do these figures for $6.99 -- and no, I don't have Hasbro's cost reports in front of me. Just the same, you'd be speculating the other way around, so it all comes down to comparing what we have, with what we've had in the past, and what we all know about toys. No, I haven't opened them up yet, but I'm willing to bet that more than 50% of the people that have bought them haven't (or won't) either.

As far as being able to tell from "looking at the package" that the quality isn't "all that much better than a basic figure" goes -- I suppose I'm just speculating again, based on having looked at, opened up and played with a "few" toys in my life. Which, considering that the very first really cool figure that I remember having was one of those 12" Johnny West cowboy figures by Marx (w/ horse and stagecoach) when I was 5 -- that gives me over 30 years experience at this point. (But who's counting? ;) )

Yeah, as for all the "people who HAVE opened these up" and reported "that they are far superior to the basic figs" ...

I don't see that much difference in quality and detail from many of the best figures that we'd gotten over the past two years -- like the SA Clone for instance.I was pretty careful to state "many of the best" of the past basic figures. I mean, compared to some of the stuff that we'd got in '02, they could have put a clump of wet dog hair on a "vintage style card" and it'd be far superior.

Again, like I said at the end of my last post, "I'll tell you what I think about them as toys, and not just as collectables" when and if I buy one to open.

Gonk 1979
08-20-2004, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by Gonk

Me being overdramatic? I'm not the one who said that collectors are "trapped" and that Hasbro has "monopolized" the market.



I didn't say they were trapped, get your facts straight and don't put words into my mouth, I said that's how some collectors FEEL. And re-read what I said about the monopoly, I said it before and I'll say it again, we're not talking about disliking the price of Coke so you only buy Pepsi, there is only 1 company making this toy and we cannot get it anywhere else - that is by definition a monopoly on Star Wars action figures and this item in particular, you brought up the capitalism and I simply responded with that fact.


I think you are construing the true definition of monopoly. There are big differences between a "monopoly" and a "licensing agreement". A monopoly is when a provider controls the market on a given service or product and uses bullish tactics to disallow competition. This is in stark contrast to a licensing agreement. Say, if Hasbro controlled the market on ALL action figures or ALL toys in general and din't allow for competition, then that's a monopoly. There are strict laws that distinguish between the two. Is it a monopoly that only 20th Century Fox distributes the Star Wars movies? No. Is it a monopoly if 20th Century Fox distributes ALL movies, not just Star Wars? Yes. C'mon, you can differentiate the two, yes?

If we go by your definition of a monopoly, then virtually every product out there, be it patented, licensed, or trademarked, is a "monopoly" and therefore illegal.

JediTricks
08-20-2004, 06:46 PM
The main reason is they have to pay for that big fat Star Wars licensing agreement.But why wouldn't that apply equally to basic figures then?


And it's not all spent on actual packaged material - it takes more time to design a figure with 14 points of articulation than one with 6 - and more TIME equals more MONEY. You have to agree that every once in a while Hasbro slips us a figure thats worth more than $5, and thats ok - EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE. A whole line of these figures would make Hasbro lose money, which is why we are paying $10 for the VOTC. Obi-Wan, Yoda, R2, and 3PO are not generally superior to basic line figures, so the argument that the line as a whole is worth the extra work on Hasbro's part and cost on our part is something I don't totally agree with on that merit as well since the line as a whole has a third of it not living up to the claim.


A monopoly is when a provider controls the market on a given service or product and uses bullish tactics to disallow competition. I know, Hasbro was hit with a monopoly charge here in Cali a few years back alongside TRU over the SW line. I was simply making a statement by using the monopoly metaphor in relation to this discussion as a counterpoint to your broad "free market economy" comment.

dindae
08-21-2004, 09:40 AM
But why wouldn't that apply equally to basic figures then?


It does. Have you noticed that even though for the most part figures have flown off then shelves the last two years that Hasbro doesn't mention Star Wars as a successful line in the quarterly announcements. I'm sure the line makes a profit but in comparison to a line like GI Joe or My Little Pony it is not nearly as successful.

JediTricks
08-23-2004, 12:59 AM
Well, I suspect partially because there are SO MANY pegwarmers from the Saga line, many of which Hasbro agreed to buy back from the big retailers; and partially because after Ep 1 nearly destroyed the company, they restructured their business model so no one brand could ever be more than 10% of the company's income (or some low number like that) in case it ever tanked it wouldn't drag everything else down.

But the price of basic figures went DOWN, so I don't see how it applied uniformly. The argument was that the heady cost of the license made these VOTC go way up in price, but I was saying then why didn't that apply to the basic figures?