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stillakid
08-04-2004, 12:46 AM
Bib Fortuna says, "Bargain rather than fight, he's no Jedi."

But the very first sequence in The Phantom Menace shows just that...two Jedi sent to negotiate politically. So where did Bib get this notion that Jedi don't bargain and only are around to fight? And why didn't anyone call him on it?

JediTricks
08-04-2004, 01:24 AM
Huh, I didn't realize that's what Bib was saying, it's not in the script, it says the line is huttesse (which is what I thought it was). The Jedi in TPM were not acting of their own accord, but on behalf and request of Chancellor Valorum, so I don't think that changes anything. Also, Bib is hardly a historian, so he may be under the incorrect assumption that the Jedi don't bargain (perhaps a rumor started by the Jedi to make their coming to the bargaining table seem that much more noble).

Exhaust Port
08-04-2004, 01:35 AM
I guess if you are a trouble maker your only contact with law enforcement is brutal, not a peaceful negotiator type. Just like some intercity gang members aren't too aware of police charity, Jabba and crew aren't frequented by a Jedi without his sabre drawn.

Bosskman
08-04-2004, 06:06 AM
All too easy.

stillakid
08-04-2004, 10:44 AM
Huh, I didn't realize that's what Bib was saying, it's not in the script, it says the line is huttesse (which is what I thought it was). The Jedi in TPM were not acting of their own accord, but on behalf and request of Chancellor Valorum, so I don't think that changes anything. Also, Bib is hardly a historian, so he may be under the incorrect assumption that the Jedi don't bargain (perhaps a rumor started by the Jedi to make their coming to the bargaining table seem that much more noble).

Don't you get subtitles?

Anyhow, these answers are essentially rationalizations. Guesses if you will. But what we do see for certain are two Jedi going to negotiate (bargain) and several films later, one of the characters suggesting that such a thing is out of the ordinary for Jedi.

2-1B
08-04-2004, 12:44 PM
I never saw a subtitle for that line either.

To me it sounds like "Master blah blah blah blah blah, E no Jedi."

I always thought Bib was just mocking Luke for his claim and telling Jabba that he is of no threat.

Then when Luke gets tossed to the Rancor, Jabba says "He be Jedi he be Jedi" in a mocking way.

bigbarada
08-04-2004, 12:51 PM
IF that is what Bib actually said, and I'm not saying it is, then I think Exhaust Port has the most plausible explanation.

Maybe it's a rationalization or maybe it's just not a big deal.

stillakid
08-04-2004, 03:07 PM
Hmm, odd thing. I just went back to check the subtitles and the translation isn't there. Weird. I know I've seen it before though. Or maybe I was just transposing the Lucas approved novelization dialogue into my memory:


Return of the Jedi Novelization, page 13

Bib spoke in Huttese. "Bargain rather than fight? He is no Jedi."

The Huttese Bib actually speaks in the film sound pretty much like a pig latin version of that dialogue as he says something to the effect of: Bargain blah blah blah fight, blah blah is no Jedi.

In any case, that definitely is what he is saying, so Huttese and subtitles aside, this film tells us that Jedi don't negotiate while TPM tells us that they do.

El Chuxter
08-04-2004, 03:16 PM
What do you make of "No Jabba, no bodda"? :D

stillakid
08-04-2004, 03:35 PM
What do you make of "No Jabba, no bodda"? :D
Gee, I wonder. :rolleyes: ;)

But the novelization goes like this:

"Nee Jabba no badda. Me chaade su goodie." He held out his hand toward Artoo.

Which could easily be translated as "I'm not supposed to bother Jabba. Give me the gift."

Clearly, Bib was making a play to get the gift and pocket it for himself, but the droids refused to play that game.

JediTricks
08-04-2004, 03:51 PM
I've NEVER seen a subtitle for this line, and I've often wondered what was being said.


BTW, there's no guessery on my part about why the TPM Jedi were there.

stillakid
08-04-2004, 03:57 PM
BTW, there's no guessery on my part about why the TPM Jedi were there.
Right, they were there to negotiate a settlement between the two parties. If that failed, then they might resort to violence, but even that seems unlikely really. I mean, they aren't set up as "gang members" who say, "do this, or else we'll cut yer ear off." They are beat cops who go in to something akin to a domestic disturbance and try to calm the situation down. What Bib implies is that Jedi are known to just go in with guns a firin' (proverbially of course). Shoot first, ask questions later. But that's not supported by any scene with the Jedi in any film. So why would Bib say it?

bigbarada
08-04-2004, 04:18 PM
Which could easily be translated as "I'm not supposed to bother Jabba. Give me the gift."

Clearly, Bib was making a play to get the gift and pocket it for himself, but the droids refused to play that game.

Bib must have some big pockets if Artoo and Threepio could fit inside them. :p

I still don't think this is a big deal, it's nowhere near as big of a contradiction as Ben saying "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise," in ANH, when they clearly can't hit the broadside of a barn throughout the rest of the trilogy.

2-1B
08-05-2004, 04:24 AM
Easy there stillakid, you're declaring the perspective of a backwoods majordomo as fact. :p

But since you are citing the onscreen evidence :D :

Luke himself shows up to bargain which fits pretty much exactly with what Qui / Obi did in early TPM, right ?

So if anything, Luke is doing what a good Jedi boy should do - use the Force or whatever for knowledge and defense . . . or whatever.

What does Bib have to do with this ? Well, his comments to me might mean that in a post-Jedi galaxy, their legend may have grown as some sort of great warriors. I don't think it's unreasonable.

I guess I would just relate Bib to lil Ani in TPM when he says "nobody can kill a Jedi."
Obviously, Ani is wrong but that is his perception. It doesn't make it a fact.
In the same light, it is not a fact that Jedi do not bargain instead of fighting: it's just Bib's mistaken assumption / opinion / belief / understanding / etc /etc / etc. :)

jeddah
08-05-2004, 05:08 AM
To my (limited) brain it is simple - Bibs line (which, like JT I've never seen ST'd) is meant to impart a sense of gravitas to the thought of Jedi, and not to focus superficially on the prosaic and literal translation of what he said.

It also serves to underline the distinction between the utterly fallable Court denizens and the apparent invulnerability of Luke.

jeddah

Bosskman
08-05-2004, 06:12 AM
First me, then Bib Fortuna. Is there anybody this guy DOESN'T misquote? j/k

El Chuxter
08-05-2004, 11:20 AM
stilla, I was being tongue-in-cheek about "No Jabba, no bodda." That line's always been a favorite of mine because, even if it isn't, it sounds like such a dingbat translation. :D


I guess I would just relate Bib to lil Ani in TPM when he says "nobody can kill a Jedi."

True, but if we're going by novelization lines, Jabba boasts of killing many Jedi, and surely his majordomo of 30-odd years should know that.

2-1B
08-05-2004, 01:08 PM
Chux, I didn't mean it that way, I was just showing that Bib was as misinformed as Ani.

Well there you go then, if Bib did know of or witness Jabba's murder of Jedi in the past, well of course Bib won't believe that a Jedi would bargain . . . because they all ended up fighting with Jabba before. So why WOULD a Jedi bargain ? :D

"What Jabba told Bib is true, from a certain point of view." :crazed:

Darth Rend
08-31-2004, 10:16 AM
Keep in mind something. Jedi are negotiators. They are arbitrators of peace. That doesn't equate to bargining.

Look at it this way. A criminal takes a bus full of nuns hostage. He is cornered by the police, and he doesn't want to go to jail. The police would send someone out to talk to him, an arbitrator.

The police arbitrator would try to talk him down. He would say things like "Think about what you're doing. You should give yourswelf up, work with us, I know you don't want to hurt these people, think about your family...ect."

This is arbitration. This is what Jedi do.

Now, if the arbitrator said "Alright, if you let just let the people go, we'll give you $100,000.00, and a really, really nice car. And we'll let you go free. Deal?"

This is bargining. An arbitrator wouldn't do this. And normally, a Jedi wouldn't stike a bargin with a crime lord.

So yes, Luke was acting somewhat Un-Jedi-like. Of course, little did they know that Luke actually had a plan, and had smuggled a weapon into the palace using a certian R2 unit....

TheDarthVader
08-31-2004, 12:42 PM
In my script by Kasdan and Lucas, it states that Bib is speaking in Huttese. This is in the book The Art of Return of the Jedi . If he is speaking in Huttese, then I guess our imaginations are running wild when we hear Bib say, "Bargain rather than fight? He's no Jedi." This is just my estimation.

B.
TDV

stillakid
09-02-2004, 10:50 AM
In my script by Kasdan and Lucas, it states that Bib is speaking in Huttese. This is in the book The Art of Return of the Jedi . If he is speaking in Huttese, then I guess our imaginations are running wild when we hear Bib say, "Bargain rather than fight? He's no Jedi." This is just my estimation.

B.
TDV

Well, if you intentionally ignore the novelization which pretty much states that this is what he is saying, then it isn't above reproach to use your sense of "pig latin" to ascertain what is being imparted via his speech patterns. It sounds like what it really is, even if it isn't perfect English annunciation. We give the same kind of leeway to misspellings when the message is in written form (see SSG forums for examples of this). :D

TheDarthVader
09-02-2004, 01:37 PM
Well, I believe the official script over-rides the novelization. I mean come on! How many examples do you want? In the ROTJ novelization three great examples come to mind...


Lando says to Han, "Let's get off this miserable dirt ball." Han replies with, "Guess I owe you some thanks too, Lando." Etc and then Leia, Han, and Lando talk about the rescue some before they leave tatooine. This is clearly not in the movie.
When talking to Luke on Dagobah, ghost Obi Wan says, "...Such was my foolish pride. The Emperor sensed Anakin's power, and he lured him to the dark side." And then, after Luke says he cannot kill his own father, Kenobi states, "You should not think of that machine as your father. When I saw what had become of him I tried to dissaude him, to draw him back from the dark side. We fought...your father fell into a molten pit." ETC ETC This is cearly not in the movie.
And still talking to Luke on Dagobah, Ben says, "So I took you to live with my brother Owen, on Tatooine." This is not in the movie with good reason. We know now for a FACT that Owen is Anakin's step brother, not Ben's brother.

It seems like the nozelizations have some parts that have little to do with the ACTUAL script. So I do not accept that novelization line as script cannon. Now if you still want to believe Owen is Ben's brother, that is your own false belief.

B.
TDV

stillakid
09-02-2004, 04:52 PM
Well, I believe the official script over-rides the novelization. I mean come on! How many examples do you want? In the ROTJ novelization three great examples come to mind...



It seems like the nozelizations have some parts that have little to do with the ACTUAL script. So I do not accept that novelization line as script cannon. Now if you still want to believe Owen is Ben's brother, that is your own false belief.

B.
TDV

While yes, the novels apparently are not "canon," the meanings of your first examples hold up despite the change in exact wording, so your point is moot there. As far as the Obi/brother thing goes, there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever in my mind that Lucas himself approved all the details that went into those novelizations back in the 70s and 80s. So back then, Owen and Obi were in fact supposed to be brothers even if it wasn't in the movie. Fast forward to today and a Lucas who is a proven revisionist, even to Lucas-apologists like yourself. Not only does the Owen/Obi-brother thing make complete sense, the more important part of this is that the new version of things makes NO sense at all. Not one teeny tiny little bit. If you want to think that it does, that's your own false belief. ;)

Bosskman
09-03-2004, 06:18 AM
When I was a kid I always thought that Owen was Anakin's brother. Only because Luke called him "Uncle" Owen. I know "Uncle" doesn't necessarily mean a blood or marriage relation but that's the way I thought tilll I heard of the ROTJ novelization. I think how Owen and Beru have been incorporated into the prequels thus far makes PERFECT sense (3PO is a different story though, I would have rather him not have been built by Anakin or even having been on tatooine) I just hope that Owen utters the words "damned fool idealistic crusade" in ROTS. That would be sweet.

stillakid
09-03-2004, 11:02 AM
When I was a kid I always thought that Owen was Anakin's brother. Only because Luke called him "Uncle" Owen. I know "Uncle" doesn't necessarily mean a blood or marriage relation but that's the way I thought tilll I heard of the ROTJ novelization. I think how Owen and Beru have been incorporated into the prequels thus far makes PERFECT sense (3PO is a different story though, I would have rather him not have been built by Anakin or even having been on tatooine) I just hope that Owen utters the words "damned fool idealistic crusade" in ROTS. That would be sweet.

This has been discussed ad infinitum before, but quickly, the biggest problem with Owen not being Ben's brother is that it inspires the question of why Ben decided to take baby Luke to Owen in the first place? Tatooine is a planet which Obi Wan spent very little time on, and was stuck on the Queen's ship at that. Even more problematic is that he has no idea who these people are or that they even exist at all (muchless where they'd be living). And on top of that is the silliness of having Anakin originate from Tatooine with relatives living there. So if you want to imagine that perhaps Anakin told Obi Wan at some point offscreen about Owen and the planet (in some random conversation), it still begs the question of why Ben would choose to hide Anakin's only son (chock full o' Midichlorians) in what is probably the most obvious place in the galaxy. The entire "hiding" element of the story is terribly complicated with this one revision by Lucas which really has no positives whatsoever. Lucas gained nothing at all by having this relationship change.

TheDarthVader
09-03-2004, 02:52 PM
Why did Kenobi take baby Luke to Owen? Simple...line from episode one... "The force will guide us." :D

B.
TDV

Kidhuman
09-03-2004, 04:20 PM
I wtould guess the last place Anakin would of looked is his homeworld. Thats why he brought him there.

stillakid
09-03-2004, 06:55 PM
Why did Kenobi take baby Luke to Owen? Simple...line from episode one... "The force will guide us." :D

B.
TDV


:rolleyes: Do you plan on justifying everything with that?

Ok, so I'm seeing it now...Episode III...Obi Wan goes to Padme and is handed a kid...Yoda says something like, "Ooooh, away child go should. Father looking for him come will he." ... Obi Wan goes into a trancelike state (as if he's listening to Yanni)... "Hmm," says he, "I see a desert world and a mailbox...it says 'Lars'...hmm, doesn't make sens...oh wait! There's more...I see a grave...it says 'Shmi'...what's that little pirate from Peter Pan got to do with...oh yeah, didn't Anakin say his mother's name was Shmi? Hmm, guide my sword oh little Midichlorians....guide my sword...." ... Then BANG! Obi Wan opens his eyes and tells Yoda that baby Luke must be hidden away on Tatooine at the very home where Anakin is most likely to visit his mother when times get tough. "ooooOOOOOOh," Yoda says. "So sure are you? What make sure you of...are...oh....um, you know what I mean." Obi responds, "The script says so, so therefore it shall be (Editors note: note Shakespearean influence to inject some sophistication into the story).



Uh, yeah, I suppose you're right. The Force guides him. :rolleyes:

JediTricks
09-04-2004, 02:17 AM
Why did Kenobi take baby Luke to Owen? Simple...line from episode one... "The force will guide us." :D

B.
TDV
Are you sure that isn't why the chicken crossed the road? ;)


Stilla, it was a joke, hence the ":D" face.


KH, that's a good reason for losing your keys, not your first born son. :p

stillakid
09-04-2004, 11:04 AM
Stilla, it was a joke, hence the ":D" face.


:confused: It was?

TheDarthVader
09-04-2004, 12:58 PM
Yeah, maybe it was. But you are too blunt and bent on being negative that my attempt at humor was shot down; taken literal. You think I want to justify everything with that line? You insult me. I guess you think I'm stupid. :rolleyes: I am on the verge of ignoring all of Stilla's posts. I am starting to agree with JJB. Its not fun anymore having discussions. All of my valid points are ignorant and "moot". :rolleyes: (Or maybe I will just leave the forums.) Heck, no one else really tries to argue with him, and so I give up too. No more for me.

B.
TDV

stillakid
09-04-2004, 05:51 PM
Yeah, maybe it was. But you are too blunt and bent on being negative that my attempt at humor was shot down; taken literal. You think I want to justify everything with that line? You insult me. I guess you think I'm stupid. :rolleyes: I am on the verge of ignoring all of Stilla's posts. I am starting to agree with JJB. Its not fun anymore having discussions. All of my valid points are ignorant and "moot". :rolleyes: (Or maybe I will just leave the forums.) Heck, no one else really tries to argue with him, and so I give up too. No more for me.

B.
TDV


Sensitive aren't we? Really, based on previous conversations, I had every reason to suspect that you were serious. Sorry if I took it incorrectly. However, I have heard other users use that exact line of reasoning so I figured you were just following suit.

As far as discussions in general go, I'm game to hear any reasons, arguments, or excuses you're willing to lay out there. Just don't expect me to "accept" them all as perfectly valid just because you think they are. Would you do the same for me? I rather doubt it, so don't play the martyr as if I'm some kind of "bad guy" here. :rolleyes:

TheDarthVader
09-21-2004, 03:04 PM
It appears I was right! From the official subtitle from the new DVD ROTJ:


Bib Fortuna: Master, bargonay tua knight? He's no Jedi.

I believe he is saying, "Bargain with the Jedi Knight? He's no Jedi."

B.
TDV

Slicker
09-22-2004, 01:30 PM
A bit off subject but did they change Bib's eye color to pink because I remember them being yellow but I could just be looking at the little details too hard.

TheDarthVader
09-22-2004, 03:40 PM
Yes, his eyes look pink/red in my Widescreen version of the film. I do not see a lot of yellow.

B.
TDV

JediTricks
09-22-2004, 04:23 PM
Watching ROTJ non-SE on a bootleg DVD the other day, I found that Bib's line here sounded very dissimilar to "Bargain rather than fight", I think the novelization author was just taking liberties.

Tycho
09-22-2004, 05:13 PM
Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's mission to the Trade Federation was BEFORE the Clone Wars.

After the galaxy gets torn apart in Civil War, people have more encounters with Jedi Generals than they did before. I'm sure Palpatine's standing orders were that the Republic does not bargain with insurgent terrorists like Dooku and Grevious. So the Jedi would be sent in for one reason only - and they wouldn't be talking that much!!!

stillakid
09-23-2004, 01:08 PM
It appears I was right! From the official subtitle from the new DVD ROTJ:



I believe he is saying, "Bargain with the Jedi Knight? He's no Jedi."

B.
TDV

Interesting. Well, I guess that's it then, eh? ;)

But it does inspire one to wonder where the original novelization authors got their information from. What I mean is that in the ANH novelization, Ben and Owen are brothers. While this has far reaching implications as we've discussed previously, that kind of tidbit certainly wasn't necessary as part of the story at the time. In a vaccuum, the original trilogy could have lived with or without it. So why would (was it Foster?) write that detail in there that way? :confused:

With that in mind, I again submit that the novel writers pulled "extra" details like that from George's own notes (most likely provided by the man himself). The writers were free to integrate what they felt they needed to both tell the story that was onscreen as well as what was needed to expand the story in the literary form. That being the case, the novelization line that does say "Bargain rather than fight..." most likely would have come directly from Lucas and/or Kasdan. I say this because when one is dealing with "alien" language like this, it would be natural for the novel writer to pick up the phone and make an inquiry. Therefore, it would be more than fair to say that the original intent in 1983 was for the line to say "fight."

Of course, as we've seen, details like that have been altered outright by Lucas and the new trilogy, so it all becomes academic except as further evidence that Lucas holds little regard for the work of those such as Kasdan who helped him achieve the success he enjoys now.

TheDarthVader
09-23-2004, 01:19 PM
But it does inspire one to wonder where the original novelization authors got their information from...With that in mind, I again submit that the novel writers pulled "extra" details like that from George's own notes (most likely provided by the man himself). The writers were free to integrate what they felt they needed to both tell the story that was onscreen as well as what was needed to expand the story in the literary form...original intent of the line...

Maybe true. Who can say for sure what the rightful original "intent" of the line was? :confused: I was never arguing that the line was not in the novelization or intent of the line or if it was in Lucas' notes. I was just arguing the fact that the line was not in the movie. ;)
And I will say that you bring up some interesting points.

B.
TDV

stillakid
09-23-2004, 02:01 PM
Maybe true. Who can say for sure what the rightful original "intent" of the line was? :confused:


Well, George. And or Kasdan. Most likely Kasdan as he wrote the screenplay. But I imagine that George would have at least asked, "Hey Larry, what uh, what's this mean exactly?" Kasdan might have scribbled the english translation into the margin which was then eventually given to James Kahn, who wrote the novelization. Ergo, "fight."

JediTricks
09-24-2004, 10:57 PM
But it does inspire one to wonder where the original novelization authors got their information from. What I mean is that in the ANH novelization, Ben and Owen are brothers. Wrong source, it's from the ROTJ novelization, not ANH. Lucas said around the time of TPM that he lets the authors go off expanding on their own tangents so long as it doesn't contradict anything in the films themselves. Perhaps having Ben and Owen be brothers would explain some of the onscreen animosity Owen had for Ben, not to mention a better explanation of why Luke was left with Owen & Beru if they were people totally unknown to Anakin.



With that in mind, I again submit that the novel writers pulled "extra" details like that from George's own notes (most likely provided by the man himself). The writers were free to integrate what they felt they needed to both tell the story that was onscreen as well as what was needed to expand the story in the literary form. I believe you are way off the mark on this, IIRC the whole dream sequences stuff and Anakin & 3PO early on in the TPM novelization came not from Lucas but from Terry Brooks.

stillakid
09-27-2004, 12:51 AM
Wrong source, it's from the ROTJ novelization, not ANH. Lucas said around the time of TPM that he lets the authors go off expanding on their own tangents so long as it doesn't contradict anything in the films themselves. Perhaps having Ben and Owen be brothers would explain some of the onscreen animosity Owen had for Ben, not to mention a better explanation of why Luke was left with Owen & Beru if they were people totally unknown to Anakin.
My mistake. I misspoke but the basis of the argument remains true.



I believe you are way off the mark on this, IIRC the whole dream sequences stuff and Anakin & 3PO early on in the TPM novelization came not from Lucas but from Terry Brooks.
Again, you mistake my intentions (lots of that going around, but again I suppose I wasn't clear). I meant that the original novelizations were most likely based on the notes way back in the day. I do believe that George let the new writers go for the Prequels, but I don't believe that it would have been the case in '75 through '83. But what the hell do I know? Let's just say that everybody is making everything up according to their own whims and call it a day. :ermm:

Tycho
09-27-2004, 09:27 AM
I would like to repeat myself. Well not really, but anyway:


Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's mission to the Trade Federation was BEFORE the Clone Wars.

After the galaxy gets torn apart in Civil War, people have more encounters with Jedi Generals than they did before. I'm sure Palpatine's standing orders were that the Republic does not bargain with insurgent terrorists like Dooku and Grevious. So the Jedi would be sent in for one reason only - and they wouldn't be talking that much!!!

stillakid
09-27-2004, 11:25 AM
I would like to repeat myself. Well not really, but anyway:


Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's mission to the Trade Federation was BEFORE the Clone Wars.

After the galaxy gets torn apart in Civil War, people have more encounters with Jedi Generals than they did before. I'm sure Palpatine's standing orders were that the Republic does not bargain with insurgent terrorists like Dooku and Grevious. So the Jedi would be sent in for one reason only - and they wouldn't be talking that much!!!


I see where you're going with that, but your conclusion is based on conjecture. Beyond that, the honest question (seemed honest anyway) is put forth by that Nabooian guy who asks how the negotiations went. Qui Gon of course says that the negotiations never took place. Now had there been a wink and a nod in there by anyone (ie, The, uh ;) negotiations hardee har har...) then I think that what you're saying might work. But based on what we see and hear onscreen, I'm not so sure that it does. We are led to believe that the Jedi are sent on a sincere mission to negotiate an end to the blockade in a peaceful and political manner. Not at the end of a blade, although that is a "unspoken" threat being that these guys aren't professional politicians and are just beat-cops.

JediTricks
09-27-2004, 10:07 PM
Again, you mistake my intentions (lots of that going around, but again I suppose I wasn't clear). I meant that the original novelizations were most likely based on the notes way back in the day. I do believe that George let the new writers go for the Prequels, but I don't believe that it would have been the case in '75 through '83. I didn't mistake your intentions, I knew exactly what you meant, but I still don't agree with it. You are making a major leap of faith assumption that the novels had non-movie material that was derived from notes in the script, yet you haven't actually produced any evidence to support this assumption, it is merely what you "feel". Meanwhile, I have actually produced evidence that indirectly contradicts your assumption, and the only thing you have to refute that is a personal belief - which is fine for you to hold as an opinion, but certainly nowhere strong enough to use as actual evidence to support your argument beyond a general supposition. And then you go and argue Tycho's point for being the very same thing - which it is - but you certainly have no higher footing on your own issue, you expect others to take your personal supposition as a strong basis for your argument while denying Tycho the same credit.

stillakid
09-28-2004, 11:44 PM
I didn't mistake your intentions, I knew exactly what you meant, but I still don't agree with it. You are making a major leap of faith assumption that the novels had non-movie material that was derived from notes in the script, yet you haven't actually produced any evidence to support this assumption, it is merely what you "feel". Meanwhile, I have actually produced evidence that indirectly contradicts your assumption, and the only thing you have to refute that is a personal belief - which is fine for you to hold as an opinion, but certainly nowhere strong enough to use as actual evidence to support your argument beyond a general supposition. And then you go and argue Tycho's point for being the very same thing - which it is - but you certainly have no higher footing on your own issue, you expect others to take your personal supposition as a strong basis for your argument while denying Tycho the same credit.

You're absolutely right. That was conjecture on my part...which is why I am looking for information regarding what actually happened way back when.

My search thus far has yielded this response from Mr. Donald Glut, author of The Empire Strikes Back. He was kind enough to respond to my question and very very quickly I might add!


Here's what happened. I met with Lucas twice and asked a lot of questions -- but these were mostly about "cosmetic" things...how big spaceships were, what did they look like, etc. I was given, over the time I wrote the novel, several versions of the script, each one a bit different, some with scenes that would eventually be cut out. So most of my "embellishments" were based on earlier drafts of the script. I did have access to the art, story boards and whatever stills they had (the movie was being shot WHILE I wrote the book). I may have added a few things on my own, just to flesh out the stories and characters a bit. Lucas or someone in his editorial office requested that I open the book with Luke thinking about something. By the way, just last night I happened to be at the big USC 75th Anniversary party and ran into Irv Kershner. I told him that there are actually two versions of "Empire"...the one he directed, and the one I saw in my head as I was writing the novel, which was completed BEFORE the movie came out. I remember sitting in the theatre when seeing it for the first time...and the first scene came on...and I thought, "Oops! It's different!"

By that answer, I have to admit that it is inconclusive as to my original assertion. While he was provided with "official" material and suggestions from Lucas, it appears that he was on his own for some of it. I could continue plugging for more details but I feel that it would be pushing the limits of politeness in this case.

I will continue to search for contact information for both Dean and Kahn. :)

2-1B
09-29-2004, 04:27 AM
stillakid, did you email him or do you play golf together or something ? :D

Seriously, I'd like to hit him up for an autograph. I always loved his novelization. :)

stillakid
09-29-2004, 11:17 AM
stillakid, did you email him or do you play golf together or something ? :D

Seriously, I'd like to hit him up for an autograph. I always loved his novelization. :)

damn, I haven't picked up a golf club in over a year now. :(

I'll send you the link to contact him... :)

dr_evazan22
09-29-2004, 11:51 AM
I've only read this thread up to page 2 so far, but did someone in another thread not postulate that Luke went to Jabba's Palace to murder eveyone in cold blood? (Mind you, I don't agree with that assertion, but it was brought up and I found it funny)

Now, this is just guessing, or filling in the blanks on my part (being spoiler free, and not knowing what happens between Ep's 3 and 4), but maybe the events of the CW and its aftrmath lead Bib to believe to believe that's what Jedi do. Another possible theory is that Bib knows that what was done to Han was in violation of law (legal or 'moral'), and that he could not capitulate to the Jedi's demands and would need to resort to violence himself. Bib therefore thought that Jedi's bring violence and death.

JediTricks
09-29-2004, 11:09 PM
Interesting response you got Stilla. I guess it's possible to go either way on this, especially since I recently recalled that the shooting scripts have the alien-language lines written in English so that the actors can forumlate a performance response off of that.

I didn't realize Alan Dean Foster admitted to ghostwriting the ANH book.


Evazan, I think you are thinking of another thread, this one: http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=23988

stillakid
09-30-2004, 12:27 AM
Interesting response you got Stilla. I guess it's possible to go either way on this, especially since I recently recalled that the shooting scripts have the alien-language lines written in English so that the actors can forumlate a performance response off of that.
The shooting script I have simply says this for ROTJ:


Luke's hologram disappears.

Jabba laughs while Bib speaks to him in Huttese.

JABBA (in Huttese subtitled)
There will be no bargain.

So that's no help really. :(



I didn't realize Alan Dean Foster admitted to ghostwriting the ANH book.
I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty positive that I've heard that confirmed in the past. It's been over 25 years since that thing came out...I can't remember everything. ;)

Mad Slanted Powers
10-02-2004, 01:42 AM
Even if the line in the novelization came from Lucas, it was a line that wasn't kept for the movie. Since the author is writing the book as the movie is being made, he may end up using stuff that got cut out of the movie. It's interesting to read the annotated screen plays to see how different things were in the early drafts of "The Star Wars". So maybe at one point Lucas had that line in there but decided not to use it. Maybe he thought at one point that Owen and Ben were brothers, but decided that it would work better if Owen and Anakin were brothers. I don't see it to be that much of a stretch for Obi-Wan to decide to take Luke to Tatooine. He'd been there before. Padme had been there before and spent time with the Lars family. Darth Vader probably has no desire to go back to Tatooine. That place is only full of bad memories for him now - his mother's death, his life as a slave. After seeing Episode I and II and learning that Darth Vader came from Tatooine, it made me think a bit about the radio version of ANH. In the radio version, he seem to have contempt for this miserable speck of a planet called Tatooine.