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View Full Version : The love scene dialogue everyone hates is actually Shakespeare adapted for Star Wars



Tycho
08-21-2004, 01:38 PM
"And now that I'm with you, I can't breathe."

"I'm hoping that the kiss you never should have given me does not become a scar."

The love scene dialogue of Attack of the Clones is done in a very intentional and particular style not seen in any Star Wars film before: that of Shakespeare (as ammended for Star Wars.)

As John Williams' aptly titled "Across the Stars" plays in the background, two star-crossed lovers play out their role in the second Star Wars movie.

For most with at least a rudimentary background in Shakespeare that you should have gotten from paying attention in a grade school English class, Romeo and Juliette were known alternatively as the star-crossed lovers.

Their fate was to be tragic. A forbidden love between two children of noble birth but rival houses, Juliette and Romeo marry in secret and plan to run away. Juliette obtains an anesthetic from a pharmacist (apothecary in Old English terms) and uses it to fake her own death. She is to be entombed in a mosoleum, so when she wakes, she'll be able to escape her own grave. Through a mix-up, Romeo has no idea of her plans. When he finds her and believes her to be dead, he kills himself with his own sword to die with his beloved. Only to her horror, Juliette wakes to find the terrible thing Romeo has done, and she uses the same sword to kill herself, thus making the same sacrafice that he did for her, and sharing equally in their love and ill fortune.

Those of you who didn't know this story should get out and read the Classics from your local library and at least know Romeo and Juliette.

Compare this with Anakin Skywalker and Padme Amdiala. Their fate is to be tragic. A forbidden love between two children of noble birth and non-intermarrying factions (the Republic Senate and the Jedi Order). Padme and Anakin marry in secret and plan to keep their union under cover. Anakin decides to leave the Jedi Order, for other reasons, but one advantage to him is to be out and open about his wife, who's pregnant with their children. Padme has a plan to sort things out, but she is presumed killed along with their child, and Anakin forsakes everything and has nothing left to live for and "kills the good man that was Anakin Skywalker [to become] Darth Vader." Only later, upon learning the truth about what happened to Padme, Vader pledges to fight on to be reunited in power with his son Luke Skywalker who he pursues Across the Stars.

"And now that I'm with you, I can't breathe."

Darth Vader requires special life support systems because he has no lungs.

"I'm hoping that the kiss you never should have given me does not become a scar."

Anakin Skywalker in Episode 3 promo pictures we've already seen (and by way of the arm Dooku severed in AOTC) has already become scarred as he defies the Jedi Order while in pursuit of his forbidden love. His reckless charge at Dooku in the Geonosian Hanger was spurred on by his anxiety over Padme's questionable fate when she fell from the Republic Gunship over the dangerous Geonosian wastelands.

In Romeo and Juliette, Romeo pursues his love who protests the inappropriateness of their relationship, but ultimately cannot help but fall for the truly and sincerely in love Romeo.

In Attack of the Clones, Anakin pursues his love who protests the ianappropriateness of their relationship, but ultimately cannot help but fall for the truly and sincerely in love Anakin.

The dialogue was constructed around how people of noble birth court each other, with formal language and impassioned, articulate words displaying their worth in intelligence and culture, as well as their feelings.

By contrast, Han Solo has had a military education and communicates only what is practical to be saying, in as few words as possible. Han hides his feelings and instead of saying "I long to kiss your lips for one last goodbye" he turns his hard-to-admit feelings around and puts the emotional journey upon Leia to undertake with "Afraid I was going to leave without giving you a good-bye kiss?"

A former soldier and a princess are an inappropriate match as well, but Han has no such education telling him that it's impossible one way or another, and Leia is a princess of a noble house that no longer exists (since the Death Star made her a princess over nothing, no house, no lands, etc.) Their stars become un-crossed.

Han and Leia meet and journey towards being able to be together as love intends for them.

Anakin and Padme meet and journey towards never being able to be together as love intends for them.

At this point, I don't want to go quoting Shakespeare from Romeo and Juliette, but if someone else sees my point and wants to take up the cause, then fine.

If you don't like Attack of the Clones' "Padme in Black Leather" scenes, at least consider the possible reason behind it. Juliette even wore the Victorian style dress (in white though) with the cleavage showing, very similar to Padme's clothing change (to black, signaling the Dark Side turn things would eventually take if these star-crossed lovers indulged themselves). Padme wears no other strapless low-top in Star Wars.

I think this is all intentional homage to Romeo and Juiliette.

If you want to create a classic epic with a star-crossed romance that turns tragic, take a page from the MOST CLASSIC star-crossed love tragedy in history and pay tribute to the real master: Shakespeare.

It is always a good idea to read more than just the backs of your action figure cards. ;)

I hope this might help you appreciate fine romantic literature in a little story called Attack of the Clones.

Hellboy
08-21-2004, 02:37 PM
"And now that I'm with you, I can't breathe."

"I'm hoping that the kiss you never should have given me does not become a scar."

Blech :p To me this is the worst dialogue thats ever been used in a Star Wars film to date. I felt uncomfortable watching this scene and Hayden's delivery added a layer of cheese to it that made it feel more like a high-school play than a SW film. If there is one scene I could remove and re-do from any of the films this would be it.


I hope this might help you appreciate fine romantic literature in a little story called Attack of the Clones.

I understand the comparison you're trying to draw Tycho and that may very well have been GL's intention but I think it came off all wrong. The dailogue felt forced and out of place and as a result was lacking any sense of real romance.

Overall the romatic sub-plot wasn't handled the way I would've liked. I did however like the exchange between Padme and Anakin before being marched out into the Geonosian arena to be executed and the conversation they had on the freighter during their journey to Naboo. I actually thought these scenes conveyed the feelings of the charcters better than the awkward fireplace scene.

stillakid
08-21-2004, 02:57 PM
I hope this might help you appreciate fine romantic literature in a little story called Attack of the Clones.

Uh, yeah. I kinda got Lucas's intention on the first viewing a couple of years ago. But just because he's trying to shoehorn a little bit of Shakespearean influence doesn't make it good by default. Should we be as forgiving if, say, he injected a bit of Sam Peckinpah in there? Or what about a little Woody Allen? Or what if some of the visual elements were derived from Van Gogh? Point being, not one of those three examples belongs in the Star Wars saga, at least not in any obvious way, and neither does cheeseball Shakespearean dialogue.

Ji'dai
08-21-2004, 03:35 PM
Did Lucas even write the love scene dialogue in AOTC? I was under the impression that some of it was ghostwritten by Carrie Fisher. That might be just a rumor though.

The love scenes seemed awkward to me because of the swiftness in the development of Anakin and Padme’s relationship over such a short period of "film" time. But I think that is due to the inherent difficulty in developing in-depth characterization in a film that is primarily action-adventure. This is something that plagues many films in this genre, not just Star Wars - relationship or characterization development often seems ‘forced’ and doesn’t feel natural to me.

As for Shakespeare’s influence, I have no doubt that you are correct. No other author in human history has been able to relate the breadth of human drama, compassion, and emotion than ol’ Bill. It’s not surprising to still see his influence on modern story-telling. However, dialogue paraphrased from even a master storyteller is not sufficient to simulate a realistic relationship on-screen. But like myself, I think many fans are able to accept the lack of characterization or relationship development because we’re so familiar with the Star Wars universe that we create our own exposition to fill the gaps or holes in the story.

The legend of ill-fated lovers is an old tale common in many cultures and predates even Shakespeare. I think the story of Tristan und Isolde was first documented in Europe in the Middle Ages. [Shakespeare is a part of our ‘modern’ age. He wrote in modern English, contrary to what most of thought when we first read his works, huh? :D]

But whether you call them Tristan und Isolde, Romeo and Juliette, Anakin and Padme, or Han or Leia, what’s in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other word would smell as sweet. J

Tycho
08-21-2004, 04:32 PM
I think a critical element that was missing in the love story was the deleted scenes with Anakin and Padme on Naboo.

If you allow me to "create my own exposition" to fill in the gaps to the story, the love story plays out like this.


1) Prologue: Anakin became a stud when he won his freedom, escaping slavery, and helping the girl that became his childhood crush by jumping into a starfighter at only age 9, and helping bring about the total victory on Naboo.

How can he not think about that time over and over again, reliving his glory, as he yearns for adventure while he trains to become a Jedi?

On top of it, the girl of his dreams he got close to during this adventure, turned out to be the sovereign ruler of an entire planet! That's got to stick in your head - especially if you're a slave from presumably low birth.


2) 10 years later, Anakin gets his chance to be reunited with Padme, the girl of his childhood and adolescent fantasies, when he and his Master are assigned bodyguard duties to protect the Senator.

He's thought about her every day of the past 10 years because, as stated above, if it were you - how could you not help it?

Padme's memory of him is that of a little boy - she has no romantic interest in him whatsoever.

But Anakin did save her world and his dogged-determination to save her again is a warm stroke on her ego. But she is perplexed because there seems to be something more - some sort of stalker complex - minimal, but hidden beneathe the outwardly persona of a Jedi assigned standard bodyguard duty. He's just a little too enthusiastic to take control and show off to her (like C3PO and his podracer, Anakin never had Jedi training to not be boastful of his accomplishments).

But his interest in her makes her uncomfortable and she shuts the cameras off in her bedroom.



3) The kohouns attack and Anakin saves her life! (key point to not forget)


4) Padme is reassigned by Palpatine, at the encouragement of the Jedi.

She is the legislative leader of a faction of the Senate that OPPOSES the creation of an Army of the Republic, and she must be sent home under protective custody of the Jedi and not get to speak or vote on the matter, and worse yet - has to leave JarJar Binks in charge of the Naboo delegation while she's gone.

She's not thrilled with any Jedi, and then Anakin's there trying not to look like he wants to go in for a passionate kiss, and undressing her with his eyes.

On top of it, while she's got her concerns, Anakin's pacing around the place complaining about Obi-Wan, because he trusts her and couldn't discuss it with any Jedi (so this leaves him Padme and Palpatine that he really trusts to discuss Jedi things with, outside the Jedi Order, because he can't see his mom).


5) On the freighter, Padme tries to disarm him by playfully asking him if he's even allowed to love.

Up to the challenge, Anakin says: "Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. But compassion, which I define as unconditional love, is essential to a Jedi's being. So you might say we are encouraged to love."

A smoothe counter, Padme has to admit. Anakin wins that round.


6) At Theed, Anakin compliments Padme's work in the Senate and speaks favorably of her career. It must be nice for her to hear.

Before the Queen, when Anakin's given a chance by Sio Bibble to speak his mind and plan his love's protection, Padme cuts him off and says: "Oh Anakin's not a Jedi yet. He's just a padawan learner."

Anakin had been the hero of Naboo and these are the people who should be most impressed with him in his fragile ego's point of view of things. But here's Padme downplaying him when he's the one trying to help protect her.

They're just 2 strong-willed people.

Anakin doesn't take it lying down: "Excuse me, Your Highness. I'm in charge of security here."

Padme counters: "And this is my home. I know it very well. That is why we came here. I think in these circumstances you should respect my judgement."

Anakin's left with his foot in his mouth in front of all those he likes to impress.

Padme wins this round, but she's intrigued that although she's older and more established as a Senator, the kid (5 years younger) is no weakling, and he won't back down and cow-tow to her too easily.



7) In the deleted scene, Padme's family likes and approves of Anakin - the teasing that Padme finally has a boyfriend, and the obviousness of Anakin's feelings toward Padme that while she won't acknowledge and might find alarming, her family finds amusing. Anakin's honesty is appreciated by her father, and the two go walking together and the slight shot of them outside the window suggest they could eventually develop a bond.

Padme's family doesn't think Anakin's so bad for her. (Key point they cut out!)


8) In Padme's room they show her packing and getting ready to go to the lake country (she needed to get more clothes of course). She probably decides to take some more sexy and casual wear, letting her guard down since her parents disarmed her of some of her apprehension about Anakin.

Anakin does make the statement about home, that home for him was wherever his mother was. This is critical for Padme's understanding him, and what's familiar to her about him and how he's still the boy she knew: his attachment to his mother. (this scene shouldn't have been cut either)


9) Anakin makes his move and kisses Padme by the lake on the balcony.

Padme lets him moreso out of curiousity, but it's not so bad - she's just not ready yet.

Anakin gets mixed messages from her and is more confused.



10) Playing by the waterfalls, Anakin explores Padme's personality.

She does like boys, but the last crush she tells him of was when she was 12 - half her lifetime ago!

Anakin shares some frustration she secretly has about the Senate and politicians (well not so secret: she called for the vote of no-confidence in Valorum 10 years ago. Padme would almost be a Separatist, because she could sympathize with why they claim to be upset, but knows better and that it's really about the money).

Anakin might get it in his head that if he effected political change (like breaking folks from Alderaan's necks ;) ) his actions might make Padme's job easier for her.

But to get what he really wants from her, he plays injured to get her to wind up on top of him again, rolling in the grass, their bodies close to her so she'll explore more of her feelings of needing a man.


11) Anakin entertains Padme by playing with their food.

Well, if you had the Force and a penchant for showing off - you'd do this too.

Padme wears the black leather "Juliette" dress perhaps out of a mixed-mind to be attractive to him but not entirely sure why she wants to be.


12) Padme squirms by the fireplace as Anakin's impatience gets the best of him and he resorts to begging for it - quite unattractively in her eyes, but yet believeable from their star-crossed fates and the fact that he's 5 years younger than her, and possibly a little intimidated by her.

Padme goes off on him, but slips and admits she'd want him under different circumstances (if she weren't a Senator and him a Jedi).

Anakin now knows she likes him, but he's not sure where to take it.


13) Anakin has another nightmare and has to rescue his mother.

Padme knows how important this is to him, and volunteers to go along.


14) Padme is left behind at the Lars while she feels for Anakin who's going off to face unspeakable horrors concerning his own mother and the Tusken Raiders.

15) The loss of Shmi Skywalker cripples Anakin. In spite of his gory revelation that he murdered something like 70-100 men, women, and children, the attitude that they are brutal savages who killed 30 of the Lars' band of honest moisture farmers plays a part in making this seem like an isolated incident of Anakin's slipping of his Jedi composure. Padme doesn't know any better. Feeling attached more to him, she is compelled to come to his side when his mother dies, and offer him her support. She is now the ancor Anakin will call "home" because with the death of his mother, he lost all connection to any real family.

16) This is shown in his reluctance but not definance of Mace's orders to not go off to save Obi-Wan, so Padme helps make the decision for him.

17) On Geonosis, faced with death and all their back-history, they pledge their dying love to each other.

18) Getting married seems like the only natural thing to do after surviving all those circumstances together. What other potential mate was there? And who could come along to compare?


That is what I "extrapolate" from the characters I saw on screen, and adding the deleted scenes to the exposition - since they should've been left in the movie!

stillakid
08-21-2004, 05:10 PM
Aside from deriving some kind of rationale from the black leather "f"-me suit, Padme never gives, nor does she ever have, any reason to "love" Anakin in any way, and certainly not romantically. Not only has it been 10 years since they met (she had no feelings for him then either), but this creepy kind of worship that he proclaims most likely would have turned anyone off...not on. But being that she does seem to "love" him, this calls into question her sanity more than his. We already know from every scene we see that Hayd-akin is a bipolar moody crybaby with no self-esteem so his maniacal lust after this girl really isn't out of the ordinary for a whackjob like him. But we are led to believe repeatedly that Padme is far more rational a person so this purported "love" she claims for him comes off as nothing more than forced dialogue...she says it because the script says so, not because the character really feels that way. Even without the strained corny "Shakespearean" dialogue, the relationship is disingenuous at best. The hint (hint, like a jackhammer) of Shakespeare only serves to draw neon sign attention to an onscreen relationship that isn't working already.

CropDuster
08-22-2004, 12:36 AM
The Prequel's romance story was doomed from inception because of Lucas' warped timeline for Ani. The awkward/unemotional romance in AOTC didn't help the believability of the story, but it didn't have a chance since GL had their "love" starting in TPM between a teenage girl and one of the rugrats.

Turambar
08-22-2004, 12:39 AM
Aside from deriving some kind of rationale from the black leather "f"-me suit, Padme never gives, nor does she ever have, any reason to "love" Anakin in any way, and certainly not romantically. Not only has it been 10 years since they met (she had no feelings for him then either), but this creepy kind of worship that he proclaims most likely would have turned anyone off...not on. But being that she does seem to "love" him, this calls into question her sanity more than his. We already know from every scene we see that Hayd-akin is a bipolar moody crybaby with no self-esteem so his maniacal lust after this girl really isn't out of the ordinary for a whackjob like him. But we are led to believe repeatedly that Padme is far more rational a person so this purported "love" she claims for him comes off as nothing more than forced dialogue...she says it because the script says so, not because the character really feels that way. Even without the strained corny "Shakespearean" dialogue, the relationship is disingenuous at best. The hint (hint, like a jackhammer) of Shakespeare only serves to draw neon sign attention to an onscreen relationship that isn't working already.

That's a good point about Padme. Neither of them give the other a good reason to fall in love. If anything, Anakin's actions would have repulsed any normal person. To find out that he'd been pleasuring himself to her memory for ten years (since he was 8 years old!) should have made her puke. Then revealing that he murdered at least a score of people when he lost his temper over his mom's death should have sent her running for the hills!

It reminds me of a Law & Order episode where a rich girl living a sheltered life is kidnapped by an antisocial killer. She ends up falling for him and even assisting in his murders. At the end she is convicted along with him.
That character really reminds me of Padme: same background and situation. Padme really can't have any sense. It makes you wonder if she had survived would she really care that Anakin was darth vader? Maybe even help him do his dirty work.

Bel-Cam Jos
08-22-2004, 10:26 AM
I allowed my English students in 2002 to use one of these films in a compare/contrast assignment for R&J: West Side Story, The Fox and the Hound, and SW:Attack of the Clones. While the assignment results were poor (my own fault :mad: ), the idea was obvious to me, about how similar the storylines were in terms of forbidden relationships (not just loves), love during war/family feuds, revenge, and one's ability to listen to sage advice despite its opposition to one's own desires.

I agree with stillakid's "jackhammer of Shakespeare" comment, as perhaps a better introduction of those feelings in "normal" speech might have enhanced its effectiveness as a stylistic device. Yes, writers used flowery language years before and after Billy S., but he is considered "the man" in that genre, so most people will think of him (kind of like how "there was no father" made viewers think of Jesus when literature has had many heroes born in mysterious ways).

Lastly, the only problem I had with the scene in AOTC was the phrase "we live in a real world..." It's too cheesy, even for semi-Shakespeare. Unless Lucas was intending it to comment on the uber-CGI aspects of the film (doubtful).

Tycho
08-22-2004, 12:34 PM
I always thought that the "we live in a real world. Come back to it" comment was an intentional barb at the fanboys - sort of an inside joke upon all the people in the audience who 'believe in Star Wars.'

Perhaps Natalie even really wanted to say that, since she's not caught up in the fanboy aspect of Star Wars the same way Ewan and Sam grew up with it, or how Hayden's into it now.

Droid
08-22-2004, 01:19 PM
stillakid, how can you say there was no reason for Padme to have loved Anakin? Come on, he did tell her he slaughtered an entire group of women and children? (Please read with sarcasm.) And that is a big problem I have. She seemed to show NO interest in him until he said he killed the Tuskens. Then she loves him SOOOO much. Weird girl.

I agree with you stillakid, though I enjoy the prequels and think Attack of the Clones is better than the Phantom Menace, the love story was a train wreck. Anakin's love is an obsession and Padme has no reason to love him at all, except perhaps for some sort of codpependent need to care for this disaster of a person. What is really sad is that Lucas spent a great deal of screen time (that could have been spent elsewhere) "developing" this love story, and failed to accomplish it. He had one real objective to move the story forward in the second movie, to have them fall in love, and he didn't do it effectively. I only know they fell in love because the dialogue said so.

My problem with the prequels is this:

Empire:
Leia: I love you.
Han: I know.

Attack of the Clones:
Padme: I love you, truly, madly deeply, (or whatever she said before the
arena scene.

Anakin: The kiss you never should have given me is becoming a scar or whatever he said. Who could REMEMBER this dialogue?)

Tycho
08-22-2004, 01:37 PM
I agree that it could have still done better, but:

Padme doesn't love Anakin because he kills Tuskens, but because she's been curious as to whether she can fall for him, her parents had liked him, he'd saved her life, and now she sympathises with him over the loss of his mother, while she might be impressed with his bravery:

"30 of us went after her, and only 4 of us came back." Yet Anakin goes alone and braves it all - and he succeeds.


As to the dialogue, again:




Anakin is schooled in literature, culture, the arts: benefits of an education amongst elite in the Jedi Temple.

Han Solo was taught military practicality by a drill sergeant.

Anakin is trying to speak poetically to "beg" Padme.

Han is denying he's into a girl versus practical matters, so he's pushing Leia further by making it all sound like her idea.



If the 2 love stories were identical, there would be no originality (good or bad) between the prequels and sequels.

You're welcome to have your preference for Empire, but I am glad it was not repeated dialogue in the same style, dumbed down for the audience while the characters are supposed to be more sophistocated than the Classic Trilogy ones.

stillakid
08-22-2004, 01:59 PM
Padme doesn't love Anakin because he kills Tuskens, but because she's been curious as to whether she can fall for him,
That's conjecture (the curious part). There is no indication either way of why this seemingly strong and rational woman would fall for this guy.



her parents had liked him, he'd saved her life, and now she sympathises with him over the loss of his mother, while she might be impressed with his bravery:

"30 of us went after her, and only 4 of us came back." Yet Anakin goes alone and braves it all - and he succeeds.
So you're suggesting that she's the quintessential "cheerleader" who falls for the strapping young jock quarterback? All he has to do is slay a dragon or two and he gets the keys to her panties? Again, it may be true but doesn't speak to highly of the kind of lofty idealistic character I think we're supposed to be seeing in Padme.





Anakin is schooled in literature, culture, the arts: benefits of an education amongst elite in the Jedi Temple.
Really? I never got that from any of the movies. As far as we know, they learn how to do things like "let go," "trust in themselves," fight with lightsabers, and move fruit around to impress the ladies.





Anakin is trying to speak poetically to "beg" Padme.
Beg is right. He's desperate and at that time (the fire sequence), Padme reacts almost like any other "real world" chick would by pushing him off as politely as possible. He's a loon and she sees it...but inexplicably she stills apparently falls for the guy.


Han is denying he's into a girl versus practical matters, so he's pushing Leia further by making it all sound like her idea.
The reason Solo became such a popular character to audiences is because they could relate to him. Under all of our rough exteriors are people who are insecure as the next guy. So as cool as Solo appears to be in tough situations, he still has to go through the hoops that females make us all jump through. Hayd-akin, on the other hand, represents that creepy guy you sometimes see on COPS who gets picked up for domestic disturbance after stalking his ex-girlfriend. While some people can relate to that :ermm: , who would want to?




If the 2 love stories were identical, there would be no originality (good or bad) between the prequels and sequels.
Funny, I don't ever recall anyone asking for "identical." But "realistic" and "plausible" would have been nice.


You're welcome to have your preference for Empire, but I am glad it was not repeated dialogue in the same style, dumbed down for the audience while the characters are supposed to be more sophistocated than the Classic Trilogy ones.
If by "sophisticated" you mean "lofty" and "unrelatable," then Lucas succeeded. I really fail to see how "realistic" and "relatable" dialogue (as in the OT films) is "dumbed down." That makes zero sense and deserves far more explanation if it is to be considered even a remotely valid statement.

But the continued success of the original trilogy characters is a testament to the believability of those personaes as written by Huyck, Katz, and Kasdan and as performed by Hamill, Fisher, James Earl Jones, and Ford. The very fact that anyone at all still mentions how unpalatable the Prequel characters are illustrates that something went terribly wrong either in casting, writing, or directing...or all three simultaneously. :(

2-1B
08-22-2004, 02:42 PM
GL had their "love" starting in TPM between a teenage girl and one of the rugrats.

Sounds less like Shakespeare and more like Mary Kay LeTourneau. ;)

JediTricks
08-23-2004, 12:19 AM
Shakespearean by way of Dawson's Creek and all those other prime-time teen soaps maybe. Of course, scholars for years have been saying that a lot of Shakespeare's dialogue is exactly that, soap opera drivel well beneath the level of quality of other plays of the era yet people worshipped throughout time because of that very quality and uniqueness at its time. They are the Beverly Hills 90210 of the middle ages, theater for the masses on their level rather than on the snooty "high art" level of that day (which still garnered a lot of distaste from the people for the artists).

Honestly, there is nothing so forced as a faux-emotional speech in the middle of an action film, especially one of such soap-opera level. Nothing takes you out of the pace and action more than stopping the whole universe so 2 people can kvetch about their feelings with overly-written, pseudo-ornate dramatic dialogue. Drama for drama's sake is for hack writers on the WB who cannot weave realistic romance into a story with a few hints and a brief exchanges while these people are living their real lives. ESB accomplished its love-triangle aspects by presenting them within quick bites throughout the real action and real drama of their lives - staying alive and fighting a war.

The reason it's easy to compare this sort of dialogue to these teenage soaps is because writers think that teenagers have confused, burgeoning, romantic feelings yet enough free time and uncomplicated lives that they can stop whatever they're doing and hash out their feelings in mock-poetic/shakespearean speaches - despite there being absolutely no shred of truth/reality in the presentation whatsoever.


Compare this with Anakin Skywalker and Padme Amdiala. Their fate is to be tragic. A forbidden lovebetween two children of noble birth and non-intermarrying factions (the Republic Senate and the Jedi Order). Padme and Anakin marry in secret and plan to keep their union under cover. Perhaps you make an apt comparison, but it is taken outside the context of the characters and the film universe in which they reside. This is why I have a big problem with it, like Romeo and Juliette's forbidden love, Anakin and Pamde fall in love for no real reason, suffer from their pointless pining, and ultimately sabotage their own lives for their unexplored and baseless feelings, all within the context only of their flawed, hollow, 1-dimensional relationship almost totally away from the realities of the rest of their universe. However, Romeo and Juliette have a much better excuse than Anakin and Padme, they are foolish children with nothing else to occupy their time; Anakin and Padme however are adults with great responsibilities and plenty else that should be occupying their time (especially since this is an adventure film) - if nothing else, they should have at least had some sort of adventures to distract them from actually exploring the futility coming from the childish, pointless nature of their budding relationship that would explain why they'd miss all the big roadsigns of disaster.

Finally, I find it quite ironic that this is the same Lucas who said "you're ruining my movie" about ESB in regards to that film having so much "mushy stuff" slowing down that film: http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=19203


PS - thanks for spoilers yet again Tycho! :mad:



To me this is the worst dialogue thats ever been used in a Star Wars film to date. I felt uncomfortable watching this scene and Hayden's delivery added a layer of cheese to it that made it feel more like a high-school play than a SW film. Definitely agree, though I'll add that I also feel Natalie Portman's flat delivery made Hayden's stand out even worse.



The love scenes seemed awkward to me because of the swiftness in the development of Anakin and Padme’s relationship over such a short period of "film" time. But I think that is due to the inherent difficulty in developing in-depth characterization in a film that is primarily action-adventure. This is something that plagues many films in this genre, not just Star Wars - relationship or characterization development often seems ‘forced’ and doesn’t feel natural to me. I vehemently disagree with this, ESB is the counter-argument because in a few short glimpses, we get that very development you mention, and the film doesn't even try to start explaining where it comes from, the film starts with the tension already existing and builds from there, it lets the audience fill in the blanks from where it started, though ANH could conceivably fit the bill for that - AOTC had no such prior film from which to build since Lucas unwisely chose for TPM to have a (very immature) 9-year-old Anakin and a (mature for her age) 14-year-old Padme, but I still think AOTC could have started without this silly "10 years later, they meet" thing, it could have started with them already trying to hide their feelings from others and even themselves, the film could have just jumped in with both feet.


I see I don't even need to get into the plot's very obvious motivation problem of having Padme eventually reciprocate feelings for Anakin without basis, especially in such a short amount of time. It looks like you guys have covered that angle quite well, and it's one that I noticed a few minutes ago has been brought up many times since May 2002.

Deoxyribonucleic
08-23-2004, 12:24 AM
Shakespeare is the WORST! Coincidence then that love scene was the WORST!

Ji'dai
08-24-2004, 11:22 PM
I vehemently disagree with this, ESB is the counter-argument because in a few short glimpses, we get that very development you mention, and the film doesn't even try to start explaining where it comes from, the film starts with the tension already existing and builds from there, it lets the audience fill in the blanks from where it started, though ANH could conceivably fit the bill for that - AOTC had no such prior film from which to build since Lucas unwisely chose for TPM to have a (very immature) 9-year-old Anakin and a (mature for her age) 14-year-old Padme, but I still think AOTC could have started without this silly "10 years later, they meet" thing, it could have started with them already trying to hide their feelings from others and even themselves, the film could have just jumped in with both feet.
I just said poor character development plagues many films in this genre. I didn't say there weren't exceptions ;)

But I agree, the romantic sub-plot and character development in ESB seemed a little more natural than in AOTC. And I also think Lucas should have avoided starting Anakin and Padme's relationship at square one in AOTC. I would've accepted that Anakin and Padme remained friends and kept in contact after the Naboo invasion. Their friendship would have blossomed into something more as they grew older. And since Anakin is based out of Coruscant and Padme is a Senator there, they could've taken in the occasional holofilm and had dinner at Dexter's malt shope when in the neighborhood. Then during the course of AOTC, their relationship could've resembled Han & Leia's should-we-or-shouldn't-we repartee. While facing execution on Geonosis, they finally admit their true feelings for each other... and you know the rest.

stillakid
08-24-2004, 11:31 PM
But I agree, the romantic sub-plot and character development in ESB seemed a little more natural than in AOTC.

"A little"? That's like saying that a Big Mac tastes a little like a Filet Mignon.

JEDIpartner
08-25-2004, 09:46 AM
Blech :p To me this is the worst dialogue thats ever been used in a Star Wars film to date. I felt uncomfortable watching this scene and Hayden's delivery added a layer of cheese to it that made it feel more like a high-school play than a SW film.
Two things:
1) Yes, the dialogue is cornball and stiff. I think it's awful there and it is, what I feel, the only blemish on my second favourite of the Star Wars films.

2) I swear I heard some really stiff dialogue like this in several 1940s films with romantic scenes. It was eye rolling at best...

Was this actually intentionally stiff and melodramatic?

Also, wasn't Carrie Fisher supposed to have penned the lines spoken by the female characters. I heard that she was talking with George about doing that.

JediTricks
08-26-2004, 02:49 AM
"A little"? That's like saying that a Big Mac tastes a little like a Filet Mignon.
Oh, I cannot believe you went there Stilla. :D



I heard that Carrie only added to TPM, and Hales is who wrote this type of dialogue for AOTC.


JP, are you talking about serials from the '40s and '50s or regular films? Because the serials that Lucas grew up with had quick, mindless, sexist romance bits where the woman generally pined after the hero and uttered some quick mush before watching her man take off to fight bad guys in whatever form they held, be it alien, criminal, or injun.

JEDIpartner
08-26-2004, 10:37 AM
I was talking about standard films of the day.

"No! I cannot go with you. You know this. My life is here. I had always thought you'd stay-- but I knew you would go."

"I'm sorry... but my destiny lies elsewhere." (hammy distant gaze "above the camera") "I will always love you no matter where I may go. You will be... my only- true... love!"

Kissing follows... blah blah blah...

:silly:

Deoxyribonucleic
08-26-2004, 11:03 AM
Sounds less like Shakespeare and more like Mary Kay LeTourneau. ;)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH! I missed this post. Glad I went back to see 'cause this was hilarious! :D and grossly disgusting all at the same time...

JEDIpartner
08-26-2004, 01:35 PM
:rolleyes:

2-1B
08-27-2004, 12:44 AM
JP, what are you rolling your eyes at ? :D

Deo, sorry but the reference had to be made . . . little Ani, spinster Padme, it just made sense. :crazed:

JT, I think Lucas said he wanted the corny dialogue in the spirit of old movies from the 1930s. Having never seen anything from that decade (that I recall), I can't say if it's similar at all. :p

For the record, I'm not one of the haters as referred to in the thread title. Of course I don't find the dialogue realistic or smooth but what can I say, I still enjoyed it. :Ogre:

stillakid
08-27-2004, 01:18 AM
For the record, I'm not one of the haters as referred to in the thread title. Of course I don't find the dialogue realistic or smooth but what can I say, I still enjoyed it. :Ogre:

The way Tom Arnold found Roseanne attractive enough to bang? Bad, yet good? :sur:

Deoxyribonucleic
08-27-2004, 01:39 PM
Deo, sorry but the reference had to be made . . . little Ani, spinster Padme, it just made sense. :crazed:

:Ogre:

no need for sorries, I was laughing so hard when I read that :D, especially since she's back in the news again. I guess she's getting out of prison here real soon.

JediTricks
08-27-2004, 10:58 PM
Caesar, I've been watching a lot of films from the '30s lately on TCM, the "corny" romantic dialogue is generally short and to the point, usually within the context of a situation, and very economical about its use of words (this was the pre-code days where they could say and show a lot more racy stuff and generally didn't need to go with the pseudo-Shakespeare route).

stillakid
08-28-2004, 12:38 AM
So, Tycho, I've been wondering about this whole thread off and on for a few days. What exactly was the ultimate goal? To suggest that AOTC was a great film by default just because is was (allegedly) influenced by Shakespeare? That anyone who didn't like the film was just missing this revelation and thus missing an example of great writing? :confused: I only say this because of your closing in the first post:


I think this is all intentional homage to Romeo and Juiliette.

If you want to create a classic epic with a star-crossed romance that turns tragic, take a page from the MOST CLASSIC star-crossed love tragedy in history and pay tribute to the real master: Shakespeare.

It is always a good idea to read more than just the backs of your action figure cards. ;)

I hope this might help you appreciate fine romantic literature in a little story called Attack of the Clones.

So did you expect this kind of mass objection to your goal or do you still think us ignorant for not recognizing the inherent Shakespearean greatness of AOTC? :confused:

Tycho
08-28-2004, 05:59 AM
No I just think the majority here has never read Shakespeare (or paid attention to it beyond "Cliff's Notes" if they had to study it in school) and so they would miss the style of the dialogue and attribute it to nothing instead of seeing the comparison.

I do like the way the lines were played out and I like more drama and deeper plot in my movies, but I think the majority also just wanted an action movie and to see Anakin get angry, fight Obi-Wan, and kill Jedi and to the majority, much of the other stuff is superfluous. What many wanted from the prequels could've been done in one movie.

I think that adding more story to it all, makes it more epic.

One detraction that everyone else seems to jump on a bandwagon to point out is that the dialogue was weird for Star Wars, as if they expect any romance to be characters doing an exact copy role-play of Han and Leia. Sarcasm with wit is deemed intelligent writing and the standard to which anything else is held up to, with no thoughts to how the romance could be different from Han and Leia, or any idea to what style George decided to go with it (Shakespeare).

Whether you like it or not I can't help. But at least I highlighted a possibility for how the dialogue was written that you might not have previously considered.

stillakid
08-28-2004, 01:00 PM
One detraction that everyone else seems to jump on a bandwagon to point out is that the dialogue was weird for Star Wars, as if they expect any romance to be characters doing an exact copy role-play of Han and Leia. Sarcasm with wit is deemed intelligent writing and the standard to which anything else is held up to, with no thoughts to how the romance could be different from Han and Leia, or any idea to what style George decided to go with it (Shakespeare).

Whether you like it or not I can't help. But at least I highlighted a possibility for how the dialogue was written that you might not have previously considered.
The issue has little to do with whether "I" like it or not. It has to do with appropriate use in context. Again, I don't ever recall anyone asking for an exact replay of the Han/Leia style dialogue they had. Their relationship was built on their unique personalities. The "wit" comes out naturally from Solo's cocky smartarse attitude toward just about everything. Leia's reaction to him derives from her cold exterior necessitated by her single-minded life goal (the Rebellion). Neither of them wanted to admit the relationship...Han liked his independence...Leia needed her independence. Finding themselves suddenly "involved" would distract from the comfort zones which defined who they had become. The change...the character arc...was necessary to keep the story interesting. The way the change occurred had to occur relative to who the characters already were. Anything else would have been extremely strange and just plain wrong.

Which takes us to the Hayd-akin/Padme relationship and what kind of "delivery" is appropriate for them. The overriding problem is that the "love scene" dialogue is overly melodramatic for the film as a whole and for the two characters in particular. Not one part of the Star Wars epic (5 episodes worth) had anything even remotely resembling such theatrical "operetic" dialogue. This scene sticks out like a sore thumb. It would be like shoving pendantic verse into the middle of a Mickey Spillane novel. A writer has to remain true to the overall tone and style he has established. Lucas failed to do that with this love scene dialogue. Almost more importantly, the characters don't "fit" the dialogue. While Hayd-akin does come off as a drama-queen in several moody outburts during AOTC, we see nothing of that behavior in Jake-akin nor in the Darth Vader personae he becomes. This is part of the reason I found Hayd-akin to be annoyingly bipolar. There is little about Hayd-akin that resembles his former self, Jake-akin, and even less that resembles the rather stoic Vader-kin. Hayd-akin is just out there floating on his own, spouting out "Shakespeare" in what comes off less like an admission of love, and more like a desperate moronic attempt to get into Padme's pants.


I think that adding more story to it all, makes it more epic.
So you equate Lucas ripping of "Shakespearean" dialogue with "adding more story"? :confused: I don't get it. Please elaborate. See, to me, "epic" means expanding the scope of the story. As with the OT, characters like Fett and the rest of the bounty hunters, and Han/Chewy and the many interesting aliens, all arrived into the story without fanfare and with mysterious backstories. The audience was free to imagine where these cool guys came from and what got them into our story. The "edges" were ragged and the story was broad and expansive because of it. But as Lucas decided to "explain" where these cool guys came from, the universe began to close in on itself. Suddenly, it was more like a stage play soap opera and less like a wide open space epic. Epic comes from limitless boundries, not from inbred "everybody knows everybody else" relationships.


I do like the way the lines were played out and I like more drama and deeper plot in my movies, but I think the majority also just wanted an action movie and to see Anakin get angry, fight Obi-Wan, and kill Jedi and to the majority, much of the other stuff is superfluous. What many wanted from the prequels could've been done in one movie..

Yeah, you're right. What we've seen already could easily been done in one movie...thus leaving more room for actual story that is relevant to what the saga was originally all about: Star Wars. I wholeheartedly disagree with the assertion that the majority wanted nothing more than superfluous and mindless "action." The events you desribe above are exactly the major plot points that Lucas had to hit to remain in line with his own established storyline. But it is his responsibility to get us from point A to point B in an interesting, relevant, entertaining, and appropriate manner. Tossing in random "references" to great artists (ie, Shakespeare) doesn't automatically create "story" or an "epic" by virtue of how successful that influence was. No, just as the artists did with the OT, it is their job to take those ideas and influences and conform them in a way that they weave into the overall fabric of the saga seamlessly so that the "nod" may be recognized by those who are "in the know," but done so in a way that these "nods" don't stick out so obviously as meaning "something" to those that don't. For instance, Dex's Diner is interesting on it's own, but to those of us old enough to remember ALICE, there is another layer of "complexity" (if you will). Even Lucas's use of original dogfight footage to "build" the ANH battle is cool on it's own, but more interesting once you know what influenced it. But Shakespearean dialogue just plunked down haphazardly into the middle of a story like this just doesn't work on any level no matter how much you like the classics. Blending is key...blending...blending...blending.

Deoxyribonucleic
08-28-2004, 01:22 PM
I have read shakespear in several mandatory classes in high school and I cannot stand the guy's stories...just not up my alley at all! *shrugs

Tycho
08-28-2004, 05:40 PM
Again, I don't ever recall anyone asking for an exact replay of the Han/Leia style dialogue they had.

You cannot help that people will compare it to something they liked before.

If Snotstoppers 5 came out in theaters today, would you go see the 5th installment of this series?

Answer the question then you'll see where I'm going with this later.


The change...the character arc...was necessary to keep the story interesting. The way the change occurred had to occur relative to who the characters already were. Anything else would have been extremely strange and just plain wrong.

OK, so AOTC's love story was necessary to keep the story interesting, and moreover, to achieve Luke and Leia being born - a strong continuity point.

As to keeping it real to who the characters already were, we'll go into that as I respond to your points.

1) Anakin TPM was 9 years old and never taught to contain his emotions. He responds just like any kid does - with his first gut reaction.

Jedi (like Anakin in AOTC) are trained to hide their emotional reactions and think things through. "Use the Force and think."

Anakin TPM was a braggart "I'm building a Podracer. I'm in the Boonta Race tomorrow. I did it! I won!"

When does Obi-Wan walk around saying "I killed a Sith Lord. I won!?"

Anakin's personality has been altered by Jedi training.

Or he'd say "I'm the one who caught Zam Wessel. I'm the one who saved Padme from kohouns. I was the one who tamed the Reek and helped everyone survive the arena. Me, me, me. Jake as Anakin would do that. He's matured.

I'll make point 2 later. You nailed Padme's character pretty good before: she's all about service and being the best at doing the right thing and she lives off her own (not-announced) self-righteousness. She's not arrogant or verbally condescending, but you get the feeling that she's right and that's all there is to it.



Which takes us to the Hayd-akin/Padme relationship and what kind of "delivery" is appropriate for them. The overriding problem is that the "love scene" dialogue is overly melodramatic for the film as a whole and for the two characters in particular. Not one part of the Star Wars epic (5 episodes worth) had anything even remotely resembling such theatrical "operetic" dialogue.

"The change...the character arc...was necessary to keep the story interesting. "

- so Lucas tried something new, and tried to let his actors method-act and you didn't like the difference. Perhaps he tried to add some of the exposition Star Trek is famous for to the Star Wars characters, especially at such a critical juncture. This is best done in the Lars Garage "I killed them all" sequence which was probably Hayden's best performance in the whole film in so far as dialogue and delivering his lines are concerned. Actually - it is his best performance in the film.



A writer has to remain true to the overall tone and style he has established. Lucas failed to do that with this love scene dialogue.

Lucas perhaps intentionally tried to do otherwise. But the circumstances of Anakin's quiet time with Padme were different from the action films the other movies are. Most of the movies do not allow time for exposition, and if they do (Tarkin threatening Leia about civilian versus military targets comes to mind), they are not romantic scenes.




Almost more importantly, the characters don't "fit" the dialogue. While Hayd-akin does come off as a drama-queen in several moody outburts during AOTC, we see nothing of that behavior in Jake-akin nor in the Darth Vader personae he becomes.

They are different persons. Anakin TPM has not had Jedi Training, nor is he aware he's dealing with a high ranking official, and he is certainly not courting her as a 9 year old. It is a crush.

Anakin AOTC is courting her with little or no experience with women on his own. Perhaps he read "romance novels" in the Jedi library or as part of his education had to read their version of Shakespeare (probably not found in the "CIS Shadowfeed" and this is what he thinks he is supposed to do. All we know is that he tries the "I'm a poet not a warrior" approach to her to distance the facts that he's a Jedi and not supposed to be getting involved, let alone with a Senator.

Vader is a man consumed by hate and a great deal of impatience and dissatisfaction with his life. He doesn't want to have exposition with anyone - he'd just as soon kill them.



This is part of the reason I found Hayd-akin to be annoyingly bipolar.

Dr. Stillakid, in your expert opinion, could schizophrenia be another possible diagnosis? I think they are actually trying to show this: Anakin having difficulty being the son of Shmi, a slave, remembering it, and everyone expecting him to become this Jedi, the Chosen One.




There is little about Hayd-akin that resembles his former self, Jake-akin, and even less that resembles the rather stoic Vader-kin. Hayd-akin is just out there floating on his own, spouting out "Shakespeare" in what comes off less like an admission of love, and more like a desperate moronic attempt to get into Padme's pants.

Well I agree he wanted to get in Padme's pants, but that was never a mystery of the movie. "Please don't look at me that way." Oh - what he'd do with x-ray vision ;)




So you equate Lucas ripping of "Shakespearean" dialogue with "adding more story"? :confused: I don't get it. Please elaborate.

No. I meant the romance required more developing than 2 people on the run from the bad guys and having time for quick kisses in between hyperspace jumps. You were correct, or JediTricks was, whoever that posted that Han and Leia had a pre-established courtship thing happening (or having begun) off screen, before ESB. It was mostly EU, Marvel Comics for the most part, but during ANH, "What do you think? You think a princess and a guy like me?"

This romance had to lead to a marriage on screen, during one of the movies, as a pregnancy had to follow.


See, to me, "epic" means expanding the scope of the story. As with the OT, characters like Fett and the rest of the bounty hunters, and Han/Chewy and the many interesting aliens, all arrived into the story without fanfare and with mysterious backstories. The audience was free to imagine where these cool guys came from and what got them into our story.

So why aren't they free to imagine what else got Padme to fall for Anakin? Especially when cut scenes at her family's house help and you can actually view this "EU" for yourself?

As far as Han's story, I still think they will make him be discovered to be one of the new breed of Clones, and Fett's backstory has now been revealed. Others you mentioned will have backstories revealed in E3 (but I can't say due to spoiler conscious people) and IG88's backstory was partially revealed in the Clone Wars cartoon series, as we know that Inter-Galactic Banking Clan Droids on Muunlist comprise the IG-series, and like Geonosian BattleDroids look like Geonosians, the long heads of the IG series, resemble the long heads of the Muunlissi like San Hill, the Banking Clan CEO. So that's about all the backstory IG-88 needs, except that he's the 88th improvement version of the droid, and his improved artificial intelligence went "skynet" on his creators and he killed them all and his line of IG went independent and functioned as co-communicating bounty hunters. Most fought Mandalorians during the Clone Wars, when Mandalorians comprised most of the Clones (Jango-Clones). Not suprisingly, Boba Fett put to rest most of the IG-88 series - one shown on Cloud City during ESB and one of the last done-in for during SOTE.



But as Lucas decided to "explain" where these cool guys came from, the universe began to close in on itself. Suddenly, it was more like a stage play soap opera and less like a wide open space epic. Epic comes from limitless boundries, not from inbred "everybody knows everybody else" relationships.

Then it was meant to be like that. Ever since '77 I've read things that refer to SW as a SPACE OPERA. Like the Wizard of Oz, everyone will know everyone and it uses arch types and a "it's a small world" approach despite the great landscape it is printed on. But I mean, how many times will they go to Tatooine? 5 out of 6 movies? TPM - Tatooine, AOTC - Tatooine, ROTS - you know it's not a spoiler or how does Luke end up with Owen? DUH -F-you and your spoiler crisis comments (whoever's going to), ANH - Tatooine, and ROTJ - Tatooine. Empire Strikes Back will be the ONLY movie that does not have scenes on Tatooine! What kind of large universe is that?

It's a book end closure. When Anakin left Tatooine there was slavery and the Jedi weren't making it right. He left and brought more evil to the rest of the galaxy. In ROTJ his son returns home and restores justice to Tatooine as well as the rest of the galaxy, as Luke and Leia defeat Jabba the Hutt.

If not for that POETIC justice, Anakin and Shmi could have been slaves on ANY other planet in the whole galaxy. Trandoshan enslaves... Rodia enslaves...Geonosis enslaves...Nal Hutta surely enslaves....





Yeah, you're right. What we've seen already could easily been done in one movie...thus leaving more room for actual story that is relevant to what the saga was originally all about: Star Wars.

No it's not about the political struggle but about the Jedi-Sith struggle. They're the heart of the political struggle anyway, and Anakin Skywalker is the pivot point that tips the balance.



I wholeheartedly disagree with the assertion that the majority wanted nothing more than superfluous and mindless "action." The events you desribe above are exactly the major plot points that Lucas had to hit to remain in line with his own established storyline.


Right, but we both agree it could have been done in one movie, with less depth to any of the characters, or flashbacks to Anakin and his mom (not used in any previous SW movie) but thus establishing the sympathy for his mother versus just showing her to be a stranger we never knew dying.



But it is his responsibility to get us from point A to point B in an interesting, relevant, entertaining, and appropriate manner. Tossing in random "references" to great artists (ie, Shakespeare) doesn't automatically create "story" or an "epic" by virtue of how successful that influence was. No, just as the artists did with the OT, it is their job to take those ideas and influences and conform them in a way that they weave into the overall fabric of the saga seamlessly so that the "nod" may be recognized by those who are "in the know," but done so in a way that these "nods" don't stick out so obviously as meaning "something" to those that don't. For instance, Dex's Diner is interesting on it's own, but to those of us old enough to remember ALICE, there is another layer of "complexity" (if you will).


Right. I remember "Alice." My parents use to watch it. But Alice can be visually nodded to. Shakespeare, though AOTC had the balcony like in Romeo and Juliette, is still dependant on the dialogue style.




Even Lucas's use of original dogfight footage to "build" the ANH battle is cool on it's own, but more interesting once you know what influenced it. But Shakespearean dialogue just plunked down haphazardly into the middle of a story like this just doesn't work on any level no matter how much you like the classics. Blending is key...blending...blending...blending.

Sure. You don't like it. To me, I think it tries to make some more exposition and add up some more sophistocation to it, so I'll enjoy that.

Don't get me wrong: I too enjoy the war scenes best. But I like the passion you felt when Anakin and Obi-Wan cross egos "I can't leave her!" "We have a job to do!" and how that comes to a boil when Anakin recklessly charges Dooku.

stillakid
08-29-2004, 12:16 AM
You cannot help that people will compare it to something they liked before.

Well, yeah but, you were the only one saying that we all wanted an exact duplicate of the Han-Leia relationship. No one else ever mentioned it. All "we" said was that the Han-Leia relationship came off as believable whereas the Anakin-Padme did not. This does not by default indicate a desire for a carbon-copy of the Han-Leia relationship as you've suggested.


If Snotstoppers 5 came out in theaters today, would you go see the 5th installment of this series?

Answer the question then you'll see where I'm going with this later.
It all depends on whether I enjoyed Snotstoppers 1-4 and if I thought 5 was worthy of spending my time on. That's the most logical, and probably the most common, answer you'll get from anyone and what it could possibly have to do with this is beyond me. I'm on the edge of my seat...





- so Lucas tried something new,
His perojative, but it doesn't mean that it was a good idea in context with the whole 6 episode project.


and tried to let his actors method-act
Do you know for certain that this is the "method" that Hayden and Natalie use to get into character? :confused: Of course they could have been students of Stanislavsky, but just as easily could have been following the Brecht or Grotowski methodologies. Heck, they could have been improving as well. Who knows? Point being, where did that statement come from? Are you assuming that because the dialogue (badly) mimics Shakespeare that somehow they must be using one particular style of acting over another (never mind that Shakespearean actors and students of Stanislavsky are separated by 4 hundred years or so.)


and you didn't like the difference.
The difference in what?

What I didn't like was the out of place over the top melodrama that was also ill-executed. It was bad enough that it didn't belong in Star Wars to begin with, but having it done well would have eased the pain a bit. They failed on both counts.


Perhaps he tried to add some of the exposition Star Trek is famous for to the Star Wars characters, especially at such a critical juncture. This is best done in the Lars Garage "I killed them all" sequence which was probably Hayden's best performance in the whole film in so far as dialogue and delivering his lines are concerned. Actually - it is his best performance in the film.
That's not saying much. But then again, the bar wasn't set very high as far as Hayden and that character is concerned.

But as far as the "exposition" goes, that's all well and good except that it is always unwise for a writer to stop the story so that two characters can have a moment. No one was asking for them to grow together while dodging bullets, but this is a woman who has had several attempts made on her life. The odds that the two of them would be out frolicing in the fields is ridiculous. Then stopping the story cold in its tracks so that they can spout off some inappropriate dialogue to one another is ludicrous. Nobody does that in real life, so why should any of us buy into these two doing it? If this was a Danielle Steele movie of the week, maybe. But it isn't, and the conventions of the romance novel weren't established at any point in the prior 4 chapters of Star Wars. Expecting an audience to accept them at hour 9 out of 12 was folly.


Lucas perhaps intentionally tried to do otherwise. But the circumstances of Anakin's quiet time with Padme were different from the action films the other movies are. Most of the movies do not allow time for exposition, and if they do (Tarkin threatening Leia about civilian versus military targets comes to mind), they are not romantic scenes.

Allow time for exposition? The kiss of death for any movie is to stop it in its tracks to "explain" something. The story is supposed to clip along just like our lives do in reality. Then through careful word choice (dialogue), placement of the action (location), specific movement of the characters (blocking), and precision capturing of the moments (camera work), the filmmakers create a two hour piece of entertainment which draws the audience in and doesn't let them go until the credits are rolling. In a good movie, exposition occurs simultaneously with the action...not separate from it. So "allowing time for exposition" belongs in a cookbook, not a feature film.





Anakin AOTC is courting her with little or no experience with women on his own. Perhaps he read "romance novels" in the Jedi library or as part of his education had to read their version of Shakespeare (probably not found in the "CIS Shadowfeed" and this is what he thinks he is supposed to do. All we know is that he tries the "I'm a poet not a warrior" approach to her to distance the facts that he's a Jedi and not supposed to be getting involved, let alone with a Senator.
So you're admitting that the dialogue was indeed cheesy and out of place by saying that he uses Shakespeare (or the like) because that's what he's supposed to do? I'm sure you'll deny it, but that's precisely what your statement above says.




Dr. Stillakid, in your expert opinion, could schizophrenia be another possible diagnosis? I think they are actually trying to show this: Anakin having difficulty being the son of Shmi, a slave, remembering it, and everyone expecting him to become this Jedi, the Chosen One.
Uh, first of all, yeah, perhaps Anakin is schizophrenic. However his behavior as Darth Vader does not indicate this as he does not "flip flop" between personalities onscreen as one might expect with a person with that diagnosis. In fact, as pointed out previously, there is a definitive disconnect between Hayd-akin and Darth Vader that can never be adequately bridged. Hayd-akin is definitely bipolar or schizophrenic whereas Darth Vader is not. Your last statement:


Vader is a man consumed by hate and a great deal of impatience and dissatisfaction with his life. He doesn't want to have exposition with anyone - he'd just as soon kill them.

is incorrect in suggesting that Vader would not "have exposition" (as if it were a verb). Vader's brief discussion with Luke out on the Cloud City gantry is as good an example as any of Vader "expositioning" :rolleyes: someone. Again, you seem to think that "exposition" comes as a separate aside from the the main core action. But when done right, it exists as part of it. We are supposed to learn about the characters by the things they say and the things they do while they move the story forward. By your definition, Vader and Luke would have put the lightsabers down and chatted by the fire with a cup of General Foods International Coffee. That's ridiculous of course, but that's precisely what Anakin and Padme wind up doing in AOTC.




Well I agree he wanted to get in Padme's pants, but that was never a mystery of the movie. "Please don't look at me that way." Oh - what he'd do with x-ray vision ;)
You know what? I'll even disagree here too. While the end result is that Anakin appears to want nothing more than to walk in Padme's secret garden, the initial meeting indicates something far different. The relationship (as it is) establishes that Anakin has developed a long and unrequited love for this woman. It is only through the blunt love-in-the-fields kind of sequences that his original thought process appears to be tarnished as her virtue becomes the goal instead of her heart.





No. I meant the romance required more developing than 2 people on the run from the bad guys and having time for quick kisses in between hyperspace jumps. You were correct, or JediTricks was, whoever that posted that Han and Leia had a pre-established courtship thing happening (or having begun) off screen, before ESB. It was mostly EU, Marvel Comics for the most part, but during ANH, "What do you think? You think a princess and a guy like me?"

This romance had to lead to a marriage on screen, during one of the movies, as a pregnancy had to follow.
Uh, no. We needed to see nothing more than Anakin and Padme together and him running off to fight in this war. Nothing more, nothing less. We didn't have to see them get together, we didn't have to see a courtship, we don't have to see her pregnant. Seeing all of those things introduces a host of problems already discussed elsewhere.

The alternative? We join Episode I already in progress as some Jedi named Obi Wan Kenobi is on some mission of some kind. At some point in there, he discovers a young 20-ish kid named Anakin Skywalker who appears to have some potential. Obi Wan, himself fresh out of the Jedi School for boys, thinks himself good enough to train this kid, which he does even though Anakin is involved (maybe even engaged or already married) to some chick named Padme. They are just regular people...him a space freight hauler and her a, I don't know, a seamstress or something. Doesn't matter. Anyway, along the way, Anakin gets cocky about how good he is and Obi loses control of this student. Some rising politician named Palpatine needs some muscle and through fortunate circumstances, finds Anakin in his lap. Politics change and the Jedi must go fight somebody. Anakin has to go fight leaving Padme alone. They make love onscreen, he leaves. She's bummed out. Those politics have driven a wedge of sorts between Anakin and Obi and the rest of the Jedi. Anakin and Obi fight, Anakin is left for dead and Obi takes his saber. Obi goes to tell Padme what happened. The end.

Point being, there was a way to structure the Prequels without going into all the "exposition" of explanation that you seem to think is necessary. There was far more than enough story there without "explaining" everything and giving it all away before Episode IV even has a chance to light up a screen. George ****ed up. He thought we were all illiterate morons who needed to be spoon-fed every last detail of where everybody came from. He was wrong.



So why aren't they free to imagine what else got Padme to fall for Anakin? Especially when cut scenes at her family's house help and you can actually view this "EU" for yourself?
You hit the nail on the head. There was no reason to go into their courtship at all. Lucas is a ****ty writer and doesn't have the skills to pull that kind of complexity off on his own. He knows that, yet he chose to try it anyway. (the perojative of the wealthy independent filmmaker :ermm: ) But as I've said countless times, I should not be expected to go study up on the "extra" material, whether cutscenes or printed word, to fill in the blanks that the filmmaker managed to leave out. He's got his 120 minutes to tell the story. Filmmakers do it all the time, so why couldn't Lucas? He can't blame it on studio pressure or lack of money.


As far as Han's story, I still think they will make him be discovered to be one of the new breed of Clones, and Fett's backstory has now been revealed. Others you mentioned will have backstories revealed in E3 (but I can't say due to spoiler conscious people) and IG88's backstory was partially revealed in the Clone Wars cartoon series, as we know that Inter-Galactic Banking Clan Droids on Muunlist comprise the IG-series, and like Geonosian BattleDroids look like Geonosians, the long heads of the IG series, resemble the long heads of the Muunlissi like San Hill, the Banking Clan CEO. So that's about all the backstory IG-88 needs, except that he's the 88th improvement version of the droid, and his improved artificial intelligence went "skynet" on his creators and he killed them all and his line of IG went independent and functioned as co-communicating bounty hunters. Most fought Mandalorians during the Clone Wars, when Mandalorians comprised most of the Clones (Jango-Clones). Not suprisingly, Boba Fett put to rest most of the IG-88 series - one shown on Cloud City during ESB and one of the last done-in for during SOTE.




Then it was meant to be like that. Ever since '77 I've read things that refer to SW as a SPACE OPERA. Like the Wizard of Oz, everyone will know everyone and it uses arch types and a "it's a small world" approach despite the great landscape it is printed on. But I mean, how many times will they go to Tatooine? 5 out of 6 movies? TPM - Tatooine, AOTC - Tatooine, ROTS - you know it's not a spoiler or how does Luke end up with Owen? DUH -F-you and your spoiler crisis comments (whoever's going to), ANH - Tatooine, and ROTJ - Tatooine. Empire Strikes Back will be the ONLY movie that does not have scenes on Tatooine! What kind of large universe is that?

It's a book end closure. When Anakin left Tatooine there was slavery and the Jedi weren't making it right. He left and brought more evil to the rest of the galaxy. In ROTJ his son returns home and restores justice to Tatooine as well as the rest of the galaxy, as Luke and Leia defeat Jabba the Hutt.

If not for that POETIC justice, Anakin and Shmi could have been slaves on ANY other planet in the whole galaxy. Trandoshan enslaves... Rodia enslaves...Geonosis enslaves...Nal Hutta surely enslaves....
Well, the irony is that the "closure" you speak of is caused by the Prequels themselves. Lucas is clearly trying to emulate DUNE's use of Arrakis as the center of it all (also a desert planet...with a messiah...who can forsee things...has special powers...don't bother disputing this, Lucas already thanked Frank Herbert RIP for the suggestions ;) ) by continuing to revisit Tatooine. ROTJ revisted the planet because Jabba was there (but he didn't really have to be when it comes down to it...I myself wish that Jabba had been elsewhere). But there was absolutely NO reason for lil' Jake-akin to be found on Tatooine. It was ridiculous and wholly unnecessary (except to fulfill that DUNE scenario). So yeah, Jake and Shmi could have been slaves anywhere and should have been slaves elsewhere. Again, a flaw of the Prequels...not of the OT.

As to the "small world" issue, more specifically that too is unnecessary and distracting. Lucas himself admits to using the Fett personae merely because it was a "fan favorite." Excuse me for trying to be a good writer, but wouldn't it have been a better idea to instead figure out what the best character would be for that role rather than merely pandering to fanboy desires (as he perceived them, anyway)? So the Fett thing was a big mistake as would the Solo thing. Neither make any sense and are ultimately detrimental to the established story.


No it's not about the political struggle but about the Jedi-Sith struggle. They're the heart of the political struggle anyway, and Anakin Skywalker is the pivot point that tips the balance.
Since when? Star Wars was about the political struggle and the Jedi struggle. They existed along parallel planes, each one affecting the other. Luke's ultimate victory over the Emperor (and Darth Vader) ran concurrent with the Rebellion's victory over the Emperor and the Empire. Now had the Emperor been a non-Force user type and only used a Force user as his muscle, then Luke would have been able to have his victory over the Force bad buy (like we saw in TPM with Maul) and somebody else could have taken the Emperor into custody (as again, we saw in TPM with the Trade Federation guys). But that's not what happened in the OT, so both struggles were intertwined. One battle would not succeed without the other which is why Luke had to go fight the good fight (as the last hope) and the rest of the cast got to fly around in spaceships and shoot bad guys.

So this assertion that Star Wars is exclusively"about" Anakin is poppycock. The OT illustrated the duel nature of the struggle quite well and to a lesser extent, AOTC had some of the same thing going on. Why everyone claims that this is now all about Anakin and everything else is merely his stage to run around on is beyond me.





Right, but we both agree it could have been done in one movie, with less depth to any of the characters, or flashbacks to Anakin and his mom (not used in any previous SW movie) but thus establishing the sympathy for his mother versus just showing her to be a stranger we never knew dying.
No. What I think is that everything we've seen so far could have been done in one film with MORE depth to each of the characters and far more of the political struggle shown. Lucas has squandered away precious minutes with hooey like "There's a storm a'comin' Ani" and "his name is R2-D2!!!!!" Of course there were other great hits like the Gungan sub pointlessly losing power in the water and of course the biggest of all time wasters, Anakin slicing fruit in mid-air.

To me, flashbacks are for p**ssy writers who are too f'ing lazy to figure out a way to get "exposition" into the flow of the story. So yeah, they'd be crazy out of place in Star Wars.

As far as Shmi dying, it is obvious that Lucas is just trying to establish a string of "trauma" that sends Anakin over the edge to justify the Vader personae. Okay, except that it's pretty crappy so far, in concept and in execution. There are other avenues to pursue that would get a "good" Anakin to the point of being a plausible Vader, but Shmi dying in that awful sequence isn't a part of any of them.




Right. I remember "Alice." My parents use to watch it. But Alice can be visually nodded to. Shakespeare, though AOTC had the balcony like in Romeo and Juliette, is still dependant on the dialogue style.
The "Alice" nod was on the edge of acceptability. The saving grace was that we didn't have a firm grasp on Coruscant before being shown this "normal guy" type of place. It's a bit cartoony, but it's alright. But imagine it being tossed into one of the locales and "mood" of one of the OT films. A little hard to swallow, that one. It doesn't belong in IV, V, or VI in any way shape or form. The same goes for Shakespeare across the board.



Sure. You don't like it. To me, I think it tries to make some more exposition and add up some more sophistocation to it, so I'll enjoy that.
Exposition and sophistication. First, the use of a specific type of dialogue "style" doesn't inherently introduce any more or less "exposition." The only way that could happen is if we were also shown that Anakin had been "boning up on" his Cliff's notes thinking that some verses would impress his date. But we don't get that. We instead just see a couple of actors struggling to spit uncomfortable lines out because the director wanted to inject some melodrama into the story instead of taking the time to develop a real relationship. Rule one for film or tv is to "show me, don't tell me." Lucas seems to think that because Padme says that she loves Anakin, that we should believe her. While it appears as though he got a few people to bite that hook, the majority usually don't like the taste of that worm.

As far as sophistication goes, that's okay so long as it is in some kind of acceptable and established context. I think that the white wigs and tailored coats that we see in the film AMADEUS add sophistication on the screen. Does that mean that Lucas could have used white wigs and petticoats for the love scene in AOTC? Just think! Shakespeare and Amadeus wigs! Why have one level of sophistication when you can have two!! Why stop there? Tiffany's diamonds are sophisticated. We'll dress the two of them up in diamond studded petticoats with white wigs whilst they spout Shakespeare! How can we lose? Sophistication up the ying yang. It's a can't miss formula for success.

:rolleyes:




Don't get me wrong: I too enjoy the war scenes best. But I like the passion you felt when Anakin and Obi-Wan cross egos "I can't leave her!" "We have a job to do!" and how that comes to a boil when Anakin recklessly charges Dooku.
Well I don't generally enjoy the war scenes (in any movie) the best. What I enjoy is seeing believable characters saying believable things while they do believable (yet extraordinary) acts. I personally felt annoyance, not passion, while the heros "cross egos" as you describe above. I wanted to punch Anakin for being such a big baby. Then I wanted to punch Lucas for thinking that I'd buy into a bipolar brat as the lead in to one of the most recognizable villians of all time. See, it wasn't the fighting nor the action that made the possibility of the Prequels so exciting. It was the chance to see where this bad guy came from. What drove a normal person to this terrible place? You might argue that this is what we're getting, but I disagree. What we're seeing instead is some guy named Anakin behaving like a spoiled 3 year old brat spouting off moronic dialogue as he throws a myriad of unjustified temper tantrums. The problem is that there is no way in hell that the Anakin of the Prequels even comes close in personality (nor "look") to the Darth Vader of the OT. The cause of Jake-akin's downfall from goody two shoes to crabby annoying Hayd-akin isn't building a road that will take us logically to the stoic and well healed personalilty of Darth Vader. The Anakin of the Prequels and the Anakin(Vader) of the OT are two distinct characters having nothing to do with one another beyond a common name.

Tycho
08-29-2004, 06:23 AM
Well, yeah but, you were the only one saying that we all wanted an exact duplicate of the Han-Leia relationship. No one else ever mentioned it. All "we" said was that the Han-Leia relationship came off as believable whereas the Anakin-Padme did not. This does not by default indicate a desire for a carbon-copy of the Han-Leia relationship as you've suggested.

Subconsciously, I think that was what people sort of wanted, because of the standard they were holding a new SW movie up to: the old SW movies.



It all depends on whether I enjoyed Snotstoppers 1-4 and if I thought 5 was worthy of spending my time on. That's the most logical, and probably the most common, answer you'll get from anyone and what it could possibly have to do with this is beyond me. I'm on the edge of my seat...

I just wanted to see if you'd answer a dumb question :D

No seriously - my point was made by you: you would go see Snotstoppers 5 if you liked Snotstoppers 1-4 - so you'd be going to see more of what you liked. But if Snotstoppers 5 was about puke instead of snot (because the writer/director wanted to expand on his subject matter - figuratively so we don't get disgusting here, LOL) you could be really disappointed in Snotstoppers 5 because here you went in to see a movie about Snot and you got puked out instead!

LOL !!!! :D lol :crazed: lol :D

Oh you should see me falling out of my seat laughing so hard I have tears in my eyes!

That was fun and writing it made this whole thread worthwhile...

Anyway, back to my more sophistocated points....


Do you know for certain that this is the "method" that Hayden and Natalie use to get into character? :confused: Of course they could have been students of Stanislavsky, but just as easily could have been following the Brecht or Grotowski methodologies. Heck, they could have been improving as well. Who knows? Point being, where did that statement come from? Are you assuming that because the dialogue (badly) mimics Shakespeare that somehow they must be using one particular style of acting over another (never mind that Shakespearean actors and students of Stanislavsky are separated by 4 hundred years or so.)

No but I can say they were doing something different here intentionally, not haphazardly, even if what was intended didn't come off right due to the actors, the lines, the director, all 3 or combos of them.




What I didn't like was the out of place over the top melodrama that was also ill-executed. It was bad enough that it didn't belong in Star Wars to begin with, but having it done well would have eased the pain a bit. They failed on both counts.

I like melodrama so sue me.




But as far as the "exposition" goes, that's all well and good except that it is always unwise for a writer to stop the story so that two characters can have a moment. No one was asking for them to grow together while dodging bullets, but this is a woman who has had several attempts made on her life.

And Anakin saved her from one of those close calls.


The odds that the two of them would be out frolicing in the fields is ridiculous.

Why? No one knew where they were.



Then stopping the story cold in its tracks so that they can spout off some inappropriate dialogue to one another is ludicrous. Nobody does that in real life, so why should any of us buy into these two doing it?

It wasn't unrealistic. Padme rebuffed him instead of quoted Shakespeare as well.

And the story didn't stop in its tracks. Watch "Last of the Mohicans" and there are 2 pauses for the love to grow: the night in the glade (Indian burial grounds) and the night when Hawkeye is in the prison stockade and she pledges to find him if the French take down the fort. This moved the plot along just fine while enhanced the love story. I see no difference in AOTC.



If this was a Danielle Steele movie of the week, maybe. But it isn't, and the conventions of the romance novel weren't established at any point in the prior 4 chapters of Star Wars.


So?


Expecting an audience to accept them at hour 9 out of 12 was folly.

I and many others I know accepted them, including a lot of lady fans that I know in my local SW club and others who I met at the Celebrations and write to regularly.



Allow time for exposition? The kiss of death for any movie is to stop it in its tracks to "explain" something. The story is supposed to clip along just like our lives do in reality.

And lovers or those courting don't have time out to spend doing it? Look at LOTR and Arrogan's time with the Elvin girl.




So you're admitting that the dialogue was indeed cheesy and out of place by saying that he uses Shakespeare (or the like) because that's what he's supposed to do? I'm sure you'll deny it, but that's precisely what your statement above says.

Cheesy works for the inexperienced Anakin. It SHOWS he was inexperienced, rather than tells it.



Uh, first of all, yeah, perhaps Anakin is schizophrenic. However his behavior as Darth Vader does not indicate this as he does not "flip flop" between personalities onscreen as one might expect with a person with that diagnosis. In fact, as pointed out previously, there is a definitive disconnect between Hayd-akin and Darth Vader that can never be adequately bridged. Hayd-akin is definitely bipolar or schizophrenic whereas Darth Vader is not.

Vader has matured to being deliberate and sure of himself by trusting his feelings (hatred). Palpatine said "In time you will learn to trust your feelings and then you will become all powerful."





is incorrect in suggesting that Vader would not "have exposition" (as if it were a verb). Vader's brief discussion with Luke out on the Cloud City gantry is as good an example as any of Vader "expositioning" :rolleyes: someone. Again, you seem to think that "exposition" comes as a separate aside from the the main core action. But when done right, it exists as part of it.


Luke and his father were in a physical combat situation that was just resolving itself (with the loss of his hand). Anakin and Padme were not in combat circumstances.



We are supposed to learn about the characters by the things they say and the things they do while they move the story forward. By your definition, Vader and Luke would have put the lightsabers down and chatted by the fire with a cup of General Foods International Coffee. That's ridiculous of course, but that's precisely what Anakin and Padme wind up doing in AOTC.

It's exactly what Anakin and Padme needed to be doing. They wouldn't be practice dueling.



You know what? I'll even disagree here too. While the end result is that Anakin appears to want nothing more than to walk in Padme's secret garden, the initial meeting indicates something far different. The relationship (as it is) establishes that Anakin has developed a long and unrequited love for this woman. It is only through the blunt love-in-the-fields kind of sequences that his original thought process appears to be tarnished as her virtue becomes the goal instead of her heart.

The way to a woman's heart is often by claiming her virtue. I don't knock it because I know it works.

THEY justify the morning after. It shouldn't be you (the man) doing it.



Uh, no. We needed to see nothing more than Anakin and Padme together and him running off to fight in this war. Nothing more, nothing less. We didn't have to see them get together, we didn't have to see a courtship, we don't have to see her pregnant. Seeing all of those things introduces a host of problems already discussed elsewhere.

That's too short and too boring.




The alternative? We join Episode I already in progress as some Jedi named Obi Wan Kenobi is on some mission of some kind. At some point in there, he discovers a young 20-ish kid named Anakin Skywalker who appears to have some potential.

There's no way they'd train a 20-year old. That's way too old. They were desperate when it came down to Luke, and that was also only because they had an advantage in using him to get to Vader since he was the Sith Lord's son.




Obi Wan, himself fresh out of the Jedi School for boys, thinks himself good enough to train this kid, which he does even though Anakin is involved (maybe even engaged or already married) to some chick named Padme.

Again, the Jedi are never supposed to be married. Obi-Wan would never choose to do this.

You have 1 thing right so far: Obi-Wan is too young to take on an apprentice. That much was established by E1 by it being Qui-Gon's dying wish.

You also have the underlying memory in Anakin that Obi-Wan didn't want him and disapproves of him. That's character insight you can use to develop them further.




They are just regular people...him a space freight hauler and her a, I don't know, a seamstress or something. Doesn't matter.

Then how is Leia a princess if her mother wasn't a queen?

Luke played the part of the regular guy: a farmer. You want a re-run. Watch ANH.




Anyway, along the way, Anakin gets cocky about how good he is and Obi loses control of this student. Some rising politician named Palpatine needs some muscle and through fortunate circumstances, finds Anakin in his lap.

So how is Palpatine rising? You need that Trade Federation stuff to achieve this. If not them, than something like their situation to give rise to Palpatine's power.




Politics change and the Jedi must go fight somebody. Anakin has to go fight leaving Padme alone. They make love onscreen, he leaves. She's bummed out. Those politics have driven a wedge of sorts between Anakin and Obi and the rest of the Jedi.

Who are they? McCain and Bush? As much as it's crossed my mind to kill some Republicans, I won't fire the first shot.


Anakin and Obi fight, Anakin is left for dead and Obi takes his saber. Obi goes to tell Padme what happened. The end.

And Yoda on Dagobah? And how does Padme "not live" to be in the Sequels?

I am all for not revealing Vader's identity in making it a 12-hour movie and the reveal left alone as in ESB (we agreed on this a long time ago), but you still could introduce Vader in E3 possibly. I'd agree that it's not necessary though. He makes quite a good entrance in ANH.




Point being, there was a way to structure the Prequels without going into all the "exposition" of explanation that you seem to think is necessary. There was far more than enough story there without "explaining" everything and giving it all away before Episode IV even has a chance to light up a screen. George ****ed up. He thought we were all illiterate morons who needed to be spoon-fed every last detail of where everybody came from. He was wrong.

Star Wars was made for kids? adults? These are changing answers all the time it seems.

My opinion:

ANH and ESB were made for 30-somethings - like Lucas was when he made them.

They became popular with kids too.

ROTJ was made to cater more to the kids by throwing in an abundance of happiness with the ending. With Luke nearly going Dark Side on the Death Star, it still maintained its integrity with the other films.

TPM was made to show what the galaxy was like prior to civil war and a Sith Empire: happy-happy with podracing, etc. It also helps to visibly make the later episodes darker with no time to second guess that.

AOTC got darker, but still shows a significant amount of time in the happy Republic to contrast the galaxy when the clone wars begin.




Well, the irony is that the "closure" you speak of is caused by the Prequels themselves. Lucas is clearly trying to emulate DUNE's use of Arrakis as the center of it all (also a desert planet...with a messiah...who can forsee things...has special powers...don't bother disputing this, Lucas already thanked Frank Herbert RIP for the suggestions ;) ) by continuing to revisit Tatooine. ROTJ revisted the planet because Jabba was there (but he didn't really have to be when it comes down to it...I myself wish that Jabba had been elsewhere). But there was absolutely NO reason for lil' Jake-akin to be found on Tatooine. It was ridiculous and wholly unnecessary (except to fulfill that DUNE scenario). So yeah, Jake and Shmi could have been slaves anywhere and should have been slaves elsewhere. Again, a flaw of the Prequels...not of the OT.

So? I've never seen Dune but Lucas started SW to pay tribute to Flash Gordon and then took it further by using Kirosawa and a ton of other stuff he used with not being the originator. Didn't make me like it any less. In fact, I'd never (and still haven't) seen all that stuff. SW is fresh to me.




As to the "small world" issue, more specifically that too is unnecessary and distracting. Lucas himself admits to using the Fett personae merely because it was a "fan favorite." Excuse me for trying to be a good writer, but wouldn't it have been a better idea to instead figure out what the best character would be for that role rather than merely pandering to fanboy desires (as he perceived them, anyway)?


That's why Han will be a new Clone.



So the Fett thing was a big mistake as would the Solo thing. Neither make any sense and are ultimately detrimental to the established story.

No they're not. See my Han's a Clone / Dooku's the dad thread.






So this assertion that Star Wars is exclusively"about" Anakin is poppycock. The OT illustrated the duel nature of the struggle quite well and to a lesser extent, AOTC had some of the same thing going on. Why everyone claims that this is now all about Anakin and everything else is merely his stage to run around on is beyond me.

Lucas says so on the first digital THX tapes opening interviews.




As far as Shmi dying, it is obvious that Lucas is just trying to establish a string of "trauma" that sends Anakin over the edge to justify the Vader personae. Okay, except that it's pretty crappy so far, in concept and in execution. There are other avenues to pursue that would get a "good" Anakin to the point of being a plausible Vader, but Shmi dying in that awful sequence isn't a part of any of them.

Really. You've never impressed me with your version of why Anakin turns. Come on genious. Let's see what you got!

JEDIpartner
08-29-2004, 09:44 AM
There are two concise points I'd like to make, after having been away from this thread for a bit:

1) Han and Leia are products of a different time. We no longer speak the way our parents did when they were our age. The tone and vernacular are very different. There's also much more sarcasm embedded in our conversation today than there was, say, 50 years ago.

2) Anakin is young and inexperienced with women. Have you heard some of the things young men say to girls who are older than they are? I can't even count the number of times I've been out to dinner or wherever and heard conversations between young people who are trying to sound "older" or more "sophisticated". They use words they would normally not use and it sounds so contrived.

Anyhow... "bad dialogue" complaints aside, you can throw those two things in as well. :)

Droid
08-29-2004, 11:50 AM
I like the prequels quite a bit more than stillakid, but I do think this story has been botched badly. I am increasingly agitated with the way that certain lines in the original trilogy only make sense after the prequel trilogy "from a certain point of view." I personally think the prequels should have been written to keep secret the fact that Vader is Anakin, Leia and Luke are siblings, what Yoda and Jabba look like, and other suprises in the original trilogy.

I think that stillakid's outline for what the prequels should have been is pretty accurate. I think that Anakin should have been written more like if Han Solo was a force user. In the end Anakin would have chosen evil, much like if Han had not come back at the end of a New Hope.

I don't know what will happen in Episode III (and don't want to know - thank you spoiler people. Honestly, Tycho, stop assuming everyone "obviously" knows things.) However, so far there hasn't been much done to explain the line "he didn't take with your father's ideals, thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved." To my way of thinking this implies Anakin and Owen knew each other a tad bit more than shown in Attack of the Clones and implied that at some point Owen would urge Anakin to live a life on Tatooine. Oh well.

And I understand C-3P0 could get a memory wipe and that Owen might not remember a robot he had 20 years ago, but it is kind of annoying that when I watch A New Hope when 3P0 says, "My first job was working ..." my mind now inserts "right over there, working for you."

And it is beyond stupid that they hide Luke at a farm Anakin had been to, where Anakin's mother was buried. Real good hiding place. Why not hide him on the Death Star? Vader would never think to look in such an obvious hiding place. It was neat to see the farm in Attack of the Clones, but we shouldn't have seen the farm until at least Episode III when they picked a hiding place. I always kind of thought that at a minimum Owen farmed somewhere else and then moved to a new farm when entrusted with hiding Luke.

There are just a lot of things that should have been done differently. The dialogue between Anakin and Padme is just one of them.

That said, I really like the prequels, just not as much as I could have. I am as schizophrenic as Anakin.

stillakid
08-29-2004, 11:58 AM
Subconsciously, I think that was what people sort of wanted, because of the standard they were holding a new SW movie up to: the old SW movies.

Well you're wrong. We don't want a carbon copy. But we do want something that remotely looks realistic. That's all.



I just wanted to see if you'd answer a dumb question :D I'll answer any question put to me. :) Well, almost.


No seriously - my point was made by you: you would go see Snotstoppers 5 if you liked Snotstoppers 1-4 - so you'd be going to see more of what you liked. But if Snotstoppers 5 was about puke instead of snot (because the writer/director wanted to expand on his subject matter - figuratively so we don't get disgusting here, LOL) you could be really disappointed in Snotstoppers 5 because here you went in to see a movie about Snot and you got puked out instead!

There's a difference between advancing the story and "expanding" on it. Imagine paying 8 bucks to see ALIEN 10 only to sit for two hours and listen to 10 characters spouting out Shakespeare whilst getting murdered by a Smurf. By your definition, we should not only accept that change in ALIEN style (from aliens and real dialogue) but embrace it and support the filmmakers effort to "expand" the idea in a new direction. Okay, if that's what you want to do, but I imagine that the majority of the paying audience out there wouldn't be quite as understanding. Lucas established a story and more or less created a new "convention" for science fiction. It is his responsibility to keep true to that. If he's interested in stretching his wings, then he's free to inject it into a story in progress and fail (like in AOTC) or make an entirely different film altogether and do it there.





No but I can say they were doing something different here intentionally, not haphazardly, even if what was intended didn't come off right due to the actors, the lines, the director, all 3 or combos of them.

No doubt it was on purpose, which makes it all the worse. It would be nice to get Natalie to talk about this sequence "off the record" to see how she really feels about it. If the opportunity ever pops up, I'll see what I can do...




I like melodrama so sue me.
I'm not suggesting that melodrama is bad. But it has to be in context. How would you feel if Lucas tossed in a musical number in Episode III just so he could try something different and add "sophistication" to the story?






And Anakin saved her from one of those close calls.
Why? No one knew where they were.

It wasn't unrealistic. Padme rebuffed him instead of quoted Shakespeare as well.

And the story didn't stop in its tracks. Watch "Last of the Mohicans" and there are 2 pauses for the love to grow: the night in the glade (Indian burial grounds) and the night when Hawkeye is in the prison stockade and she pledges to find him if the French take down the fort. This moved the plot along just fine while enhanced the love story. I see no difference in AOTC.
The Last of the Mohicans may be famous for being the first American novel, but that doesn't mean it was good. But AOTC did stop while we watched the frolicing and other courtship nonsense. That stuff had nothing at all to do with the plot and we were forced to witness each excrutiating moment.






So?.So? Why don't you try reading the rest of the paragraph before becoming confused.




I and many others I know accepted them, including a lot of lady fans that I know in my local SW club and others who I met at the Celebrations and write to regularly.
Again, the point is context. Sappy nonsensical unrealistic romantic dialogue belongs in a Danielle Steele novel as that is the convention that she writes with. Episodes IV, V, VI, I, and most of II have a different convention that was established with IV. I'll ask again if you'd support a big Busby Berkeley number or Oklahoma-like musical number in Episode III?





And lovers or those courting don't have time out to spend doing it? Look at LOTR and Arrogan's time with the Elvin girl.
Yeah, I did. Yawwwn. Same thing. If I want to read a Harlequin novel, I'll do that and get the romance (yeah, I have read them). But if the story is not inherently just about romance, then the romance needs to be part of the greater plot. The plot should not be stopped so that two characters can get it on. Romancing the Stone is a fantastic example of how to do this right.






Cheesy works for the inexperienced Anakin. It SHOWS he was inexperienced, rather than tells it.
If it was just Anakin, then your point might be valid. But Padme is dishing out that horrid dialogue too, which means that (what I thought was) your original assertion that Lucas was just stretching his wings is probably correct. The Shakespearean dialogue has less to do with Anakin's "inexperience" and more to do with Lucas not having a clue as to how to write a realistic budding relationship. He feels that if the characters tell each other how much they love each other in as flowery language as possible, then it must be true no matter what they've actually done up to that point. I mean, Tycho, when you hear Padme say the words that she truly deeply loves Anakin, do you really seriously believe her? Maybe you do. I don't and the vast majority of the people that I know don't either. She can say it all day, but nothing up to that point even remotely supports it.





Luke and his father were in a physical combat situation that was just resolving itself (with the loss of his hand). Anakin and Padme were not in combat circumstances...

It's exactly what Anakin and Padme needed to be doing. They wouldn't be practice dueling.
Oh for christ's sake. I wasn't suggesting that Anakin and Padme be in a carbon copy of the events in the OT. I'm sure you know that but are being stubborn. The suggestion is that the events of the overall plot (that being the bigger political struggle) are the canvas which the characters are running around on. The "moments" that Hayd-akin and Padme have should occur while they act and react to those events. But instead, Lucas essentially removes them from the rest of the world, puts them in their own little closet, and expects us to believe that their love blossoms into everything it will ever be in that short time. C'mon! :rolleyes:







That's too short and too boring.
Once again, you're missing the point. (Am I talking to JJB all of the sudden?) I was hitting the highlights of this particular line of the story (the Anakin Padme relationship). OBVIOUSLY there are a lot of other events that occur in between that stuff. Duh. (I can't even believe I had to clarify that. :rolleyes: )






There's no way they'd train a 20-year old. That's way too old. They were desperate when it came down to Luke, and that was also only because they had an advantage in using him to get to Vader since he was the Sith Lord's son.
Yeah, there was no way they'd (the Jedi school) would train him...which is why Obi goes ahead and does it on his own...hmmm? Seem familiar somehow?






Again, the Jedi are never supposed to be married. Obi-Wan would never choose to do this.

Wrong. Again, the Jedi school wouldn't agree to train him, but Obi "thought he could train him just as well as Yoda." Obi was a rogue who found the kid, recognized his potential, and tried to be a hero and train Anakin. His failure had deep ramifications for the galaxy. Well, that was the story before this Prequel nonsense anyway.



Then how is Leia a princess if her mother wasn't a queen?
She wasn't a real "blood" princess. She was given to a royal family on Alderaan. Nobody calls Luke "Prince" at any time, do they?

But if you wanted to play Padme as a Queen in what should be the real Prequels, then sure, that'd work to. I've got no problem with that, except that it makes the Anakin Padme relationship that much harder to figure out. With a little work, it might be possible. Who knows until an experienced writer actually sits down to do the work (unlike Lucas).


Luke played the part of the regular guy: a farmer. You want a re-run. Watch ANH.
Uh, yeah, I know the story. Not sure of your point. Luke was regular guy. Leia was called a princess. Luke was never called a "prince." There's a disconnect there for you to resolve before trying to trip me up. I'll be waiting over here. :)







So how is Palpatine rising? You need that Trade Federation stuff to achieve this. If not them, than something like their situation to give rise to Palpatine's power.
I don't know. I didn't go into that here because it wasn't really relevant to the discussion. Sure, maybe a trade thing. Maybe something else. Point being, that I didn't outline the ENTIRE story here, just the highlights that are relevant.






Who are they? McCain and Bush? As much as it's crossed my mind to kill some Republicans, I won't fire the first shot.
:confused: Again, I wasn't outlining everything, just the relevant Anakin/Padme highlights.




And Yoda on Dagobah?
We discover that Yoda survived during ESB and where he is in ROTJ. Duh. Why is there a constant insistence on SHOWING every last detail that is revealed meticulously (and sometimes mysteriously) in the OT? Are you trying to ruin everything about those films on purpose, just like Lucas? :confused:




And how does Padme "not live" to be in the Sequels?
:confused: What are you talking about?


Star Wars was made for kids? adults? These are changing answers all the time it seems.

My opinion:

ANH and ESB were made for 30-somethings - like Lucas was when he made them.

They became popular with kids too.
Agreed. All the good writing literature tells you to write for yourself. Write something that you yourself would like to read. Make a movie the way you'd like to see it. The moment you try to second guess what the audience will want is the moment you fail. This is the problem with the studio marketing development process. That's why a film like Batman and Robin was so attrocious. They weren't making a movie, they were selling toys.




So? I've never seen Dune but Lucas started SW to pay tribute to Flash Gordon and then took it further by using Kirosawa and a ton of other stuff he used with not being the originator. Didn't make me like it any less. In fact, I'd never (and still haven't) seen all that stuff. SW is fresh to me. My point is that Lucas isn't doing what's best for his story. He's more interested in borrowing other people's ideas whether they work for Star Wars or not. Some ideas do and others don't. This Tatooine thing isn't panning out.







That's why Han will be a new Clone.
Conjecture.




No they're not. See my Han's a Clone / Dooku's the dad thread.
Yeah, I have. See my objections there too. :)







Lucas says so on the first digital THX tapes opening interviews.
He can say it, but it doesn't make it so. Actions speak louder than words.





Really. You've never impressed me with your version of why Anakin turns. Come on genious. Let's see what you got!
I've never really given any reasons for why Anakin turns. It's not my job. It's not my story to tell. It's Lucas's story and his responsibility to tell it right. Everything you're talking about is pure conjecture based on what you'd like to see, not based on what has been established. I don't do that. I take what is already there and discuss based on that. There's a difference. Conjecture isn't my thing. :)

Bel-Cam Jos
09-12-2004, 12:06 AM
So? Why don't you try reading the rest of the paragraph before becoming confused.

:confused: What are you talking about?

I agree. Or do I disagree? I'm so :confused:

Why don't we all just ask for our long swords, call for a plague on both your houses, bite our thumbs at each other, and hope that the apothocary is out of poison. Zounds! Methinks they doth protest too much.