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View Full Version : I still think Dooku is Anakin's Dad and Han Solo is a new kind of Clone Trooper



Tycho
08-23-2004, 11:50 AM
The more I think about it, this is another case of being misled or lied to before we see the movie to keep some surprise left in it.


Dooku is Anakin's Dad period.


Empire Strikes Back: "I am your father."

Luke: "Ben, why didn't you tell me?!"

ROTJ: Palpatine: "Now fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side."


Revenge of the Sith

Palpatine: "I'm sorry Anakin, but the late Count Dooku was your father."

Anakin: "Mace! Why didn't you tell me?!"

Palpatine: "Now fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side.



Palpatine's seen this all before. That's exactly why he's so overconfident about Luke turning to the Dark Side in ROTJ.


They have pickup shots they've been doing, and when they made ESB, it was very closely guarded and David Prowse didn't even know until he saw the movie.

In ROTJ, the scenes with Vader unmasked - again, almost no one knew. 4-5 people comprised the whole crew including Hamill and Shaw when the final scene was made.


Mark my words:

1) Dooku is Anakin's father and Anakin kills him without ever knowing and when he finds out the Jedi lied to him, it throws him over the edge. It's the only obvious way for the story to proceed.

2) Han Solo is a new kind of Clone Trooper who's programming as a child was interrupted, causing him to develop personality, morals, and independence "he's Solo."


Do this: Watch Episode 1 and assume two things:

1) Shmi Skywalker is lying about Anakin's father. How does she act when observing Qui-Gon's curiousity about her child? If she'd known Dooku 9 years ago, wouldn't she have already heard of Qui-Gon Jinn, even if she'd never met him? Could that have helped her decide to let Anakin go with him?


2) the midichlorian blood test results will become known to Mace and Yoda that Anakin is Dooku's child by some point before the Theed Celebration (doesn't really affect TPM movie, but plays a part in E3).


Watch Episodes 4,5 and 6.

1) Assume Han Solo is a Clone - the kind used for classic Stormtroopers.
2) Recollect that Boba Fett is an obsolete Clone - the Mandalorian kind killed off and replaced by other types during the Clone Wars.

3) Consider Boba's pride in his father. What would he think of the new Stormtroopers, and especially a Rebel and criminal like Han Solo?

Come back and tell me how you felt characters responded and acted during the movies if you considered these things were going on.

stillakid
08-23-2004, 02:08 PM
They have pickup shots they've been doing, and when they made ESB, it was very closely guarded and David Prowse didn't even know until he saw the movie.

In ROTJ, the scenes with Vader unmasked - again, almost no one knew. 4-5 people comprised the whole crew including Hamill and Shaw when the final scene was made.



I touched on some of your other points in a separate thread, but as to these above...

They kept the "secret" from Prowse because he was a blabbermouth. Every good movie has an awesome "twist" that nobody sees coming and for ESB, the "father" thing was it. Lucas simply gave Prowse dummy dialogue so he wouldn't leak it out before the movie was finished.

Again, in ROTJ, the unmasking ranks up there with the secrecy thing. Just like any kind of superhero story, we all want to know who's in there. Keeping the crew small was the best way to ensure that as little as possible would get out to the public before release.

So, no "story" conspiracies here. Just pragmatic marketing decisions. :ermm:

Tycho
08-23-2004, 02:53 PM
Right. Which is why they might hold several things secret now: namely dialogue:

The revelation that Dooku was Anakin's father. (Takes less than 10 seconds to say the words, but has 6+ hours of movie consequences thereafter, if Anakin's given some real motivation to turn to the Dark Side, such as the Jedi lying to him about his family - which as we've seen already with Anakin's mom - family is what is most important to him).

An 11 year old kid (just like Danny Logan who played Fett in E2) getting detached from his Clone-Educational-Control-Unit and making a moral decision based on independent thinking and maybe uttering a wise-crack in the process like "Maybe you'd like it back in your cell, Your Highness?" He's possibly a tag-along for the ride role like baby Boba Fett was, but ultimatey getting lost and left alone to fend for himself. Probably no more than 5 minutes screen time total. So many seconds here, so many seconds there.

A cameo appearance by Harrison Ford for 10 seconds: while Chancellor Palpatine or Grand Moff Tarkin nod at approval at the Non-Speaking Ford "Your clones are very impressive. They'll do their job well." These 10 seconds and Harrison Ford (who is good friends with George Lucas and doens't have to be PAID or credited for 10 seconds of screen time beyond what? The Acting Guild's standard day for a background extra?) creates 6 hours of implications for the Classic Trilogy via this 10 second cameo.

That's what's so cool about Star Wars. The possibilities are wonderful.

This is what I would do were I writing Episode 3, and I think this adds new dimension to all the characters involved and is the most logical route to go with it.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
08-23-2004, 04:14 PM
I'm pretty sure that in ROTS we find out about Anakin's father. Rick McCallum said at Comic-Con that people who didn't like the midi-chlorian conception deal wouldn't have a problem after Episode III. And in TPM, no one outright said he was conceived by the midi-chlorians (Qui-Gon only said it was possible).

Now, I don't know if Dooku is Anakin's father, I'm going for the Palpatine route. Either way would be fine. Who knows, it could still be Qui-Gon.

I still don't like the idea of Han Solo being a clone.

jedi master sal
08-23-2004, 05:02 PM
Quite an imagination there Tycho. I'm of the belief that Palpatine is Anakin's father. That's if we're given to grandiose conjecture. Heh heh. nice theories though.

I don't for a minute believe Han is a clone. That would deflate the OT for me big time.

Tycho
08-23-2004, 05:24 PM
This reply has 2 parts: Han's history (EU and movie) and first:

Han's setup:

Han wears black and white (vest and shirt) like a Clone. Colors do matter.
Han has blue pants (like Clone Pilots have blue stripes). Han has a red bloodstripe (EU aside, this is like Clone Captains).

Every wardrobe change Han has, he wears something close to black and white. When he's a general, he has gold stripes (like a Clone Commander).

Boba Fett is Han's chief rival (like Vader is Luke's nemesis).

Boba Fett is a singularly unique Clone, unlike any of the others.

Han SOLO is a solo-unique Clone, unlike any of HIS others. (read the EU part about Denn Solo, Thracken Sal-Solo, etc. to see how it is all still possible).


Boba Fett is unique because Jango requested a son to raise himself. "Slave-One." Clones are sort of slaves if you use that connotation. They aren't independent but obedient. Jango doesn't own his clones, but his son is his own.

Han is unique because he got separated from his Clone compatriots (based off a new breed since Jango was dead and fresh DNA running out). Han raised himself (along with Garris Shrike and Dewlanna to bring in Expanded Universe)

BOTH Han and Boba Fett:

have unconventional customized ships
are the quickest draws in a gun battle from across the galaxy
are dispassioned mercenaries out for a paycheck
are not officially Rebel or Imperial - just work for them (until ROTJ for Han)
were survivors: from being orphaned at an early age.
wear Clone Trooper rank colors
know about hiding on the back of Imperial cruisers (in asteroid fields, whatever)
always know how to adapt (Han using the TaunTaun to save Luke)
one rescues, one brings in bounties - both find and locate others

Fett and Han are extreme rivals:

Fett sees Han's line as replacing and making obsolete the promise of a new Mandalorian Army. All the new Clones are not of Jango and they are not wearing Mandalorian armor anymore (like E2 Clone Troopers do).

Fett was made to be indpendent: Han is a fluke from that replacement line and "in Fett's opinion" should have obeyed his programming, but instead is especially threatening becauce Han "takes orders from just one person - [himself]"


Han's history.

50 years before TPM

Denn Solo and his wife leave Corellia to try to make their living prospecting on one of the outer planets in the system. They have twin kids: a boy and a girl.

Bad blood in the family - perhaps over the inheritance of a wealthy estate on Corellia, earns the wrath of the homocidal Solo-The Black - a dangerous pirate and a cousin of Denn's.

30 years before TPM

The family is tracked down where they are hiding out and attacked in an invasion by pirates bent on taking control over a defenseless colony.

The mother, "Grandma" Gamma-Solo gets sent away with their daughter Tion so that the father, Granpa Denn can try and lead his rival cousin away from his family.

Tion inherits the Solo estate, marries a "Sal," and has a son: Thracken Sal-Solo.


Denn flees with his son and they handle affairs with Solo The Black, their evil cousin.

The son is either corrupted or orphaned and becomes a mercenary.

44 years later (14 years after TPM) the son is the mercenary hired to be the source of DNA for the Republics continued need for a Clone Army. (Harrison Ford is cast for 10 seconds in a non-speaking walk-on for this role).


23 years before A New Hope, just after Jango's death, TK-241 is created. He resembles a perfect Clone of Denn Solo's son. He begins training to fight droids during the Clone Wars.

18 years before A New Hope, TK-421 is 11 years old, physically and mentally speaking, when the chaos of war break him off from his training unit and leaves him orhpaned. He's chronologically only 5, but growth accelerated.

Garris Shrike a slave-trader finds him on Corellia as TK-421's memory starts to develop. He calls him "Han" - possibly because Garris knew who Han's father was.

With the help of his Wookiee surrogate mother, Han escapes slavery and grows up working for the Hutts as a smuggling pilot. He tries to save enough money to create a false identity that would let him go to the Imperial Academy as he was bred to want order in his life. He doens't remember (perhaps) that he was supposed to be a stormtrooper. Instead he wanst to be a TIE pilot. The Chewbacca rescue (when Han's a young officer at age 23) changes a lot of things.

The rest you all know.


That's how I'd have coordinated it all.

Why else would Lucas not allow EU authors to write stories about Han's mother and father, where he came from etc?

Han is the last remaining main-character without his backstory closed (except for Palpatine and Yoda perhaps)

In mythology, the heroes are all arch-types that meet their destiny. Some fans want Han to be "just a regular guy." I don't think SW is "just a regular story."

That is all part of the coincidence in fantasy:

a scared lion
a rusting Tin Man
a little girl
a dog
a scarecrow that's brave - all go off to find the Wizard of Oz.


A farmboy with a famous father
a young Princess-senator
an ex-Clone Soldier
a "dog"
a Tin Man (or 2) - all go off to find the Justice of The Force.


The regular guy just doesn't fit in there.

Star Wars is "realistic" in its background - the used universe look.

Nothing is said about not having fate, coincidence, and arch-types that all fulfill some destiny they were made for though.

Slicker
08-23-2004, 08:56 PM
Tycho my man you never cease to amaze me. When I first read this thread title I thought you may have gone over the edge in the way of sanity. Is everything you wrote from books or did you just infer it all? After reading that last thread I would believe almost anything you said.

What's that you want to trade the Eiffel Tower to me for an SA Clone Trooper sure.

Tycho
08-23-2004, 09:06 PM
Everything I wrote is from conjecture as well as some discussion with others that took to my theory.

Han's history is written out in the best 3 Star Wars books I EVER read:

Ann Crispin's Han Solo Trilogy:

The Paradise Snare
The Hutt Gambit
Rebel Dawn



Paradise Snare starts with Han at age 19, but you'll see some flashbacks to younger times. You seem him get his start with Jabba and join the Empire.

The Hutt Gambit starts after a deliberate gap in the story: mainly sometime while Han was 23 he met Chewie. In Hutt Gambit, he and Chewie are already working together, and Han has been kicked out of the Empire's Service. He'll become a target of Boba Fett's and become the best of friends with Lando Calrissian.

Rebel Dawn finds Han at age 28 (after the Brian Daley Han Solo adventures) and he discovers that his ex-girlfriend that he risked the wrath of the Hutts and Boba Fett over has joined the Rebellion. You actually see the Rebellion formed as Bail Organa, Garm Bel Ibis of the Corellian Resistance, and Mon Mothma lay out plans to attack the Empire. (ANH was their first victory).
Han has to dump a cargo of Jabba's spice in the process, and gets bounty hunters after him. The story leads right up to the point where Chewbacca brings Obi-Wan to Han's favorite table in the Mos Eisley Cantina.

The rest is in the movies :)

mabudonicus
08-25-2004, 08:40 AM
I've put this theory forth in at least 2 different threads over the past 2 years and no-one's even replied to it :beard:

I take it one step firther, though, buy roping in the "Mace is a bad guy and always was the second Sith with Palpatine as his master" theory as well, might as well post it here, the thread only has to last for a few more months :beard:

Anything in the first 2 films that would make that impossible???

stillakid
08-25-2004, 10:42 AM
I've put this theory forth in at least 2 different threads over the past 2 years and no-one's even replied to it :beard:

I take it one step firther, though, buy roping in the "Mace is a bad guy and always was the second Sith with Palpatine as his master" theory as well, might as well post it here, the thread only has to last for a few more months :beard:

Anything in the first 2 films that would make that impossible???

Nothing is impossible...however, plausible is something else. As described at length (and summarily rationalized away), the idea that Dooku fathered Jake-akin gets silly when you start to analyze the Rube-Goldberian process that it took to find him and whisk him off the planet.

As far as the Mace scenario goes, it too lacks from any kind of plausible setup. If Episode III were to show us that he is suddenly evil, no doubt the audience would be left scratching it's head wondering where it came from.

And the Han thing goes beyond silly to absurd. While a "fantasy" story could use the name (Solo) to justify this, frankly, it's just stupid beyond words. Besides that, there is nothing...NOTHING...no payoff whatsoever in the OT to make this kind of revelation necessary or relevant to the overall story. It comes off more like a pun (Solo, get it...Sooo loooo ...hardee har har) that should be left to the joke page in the Insider instead of being turned into a plot point in the Saga itself.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

jedi master sal
08-25-2004, 10:55 AM
Tycho, I've thought about this a bit more and I want to add yet another twist to your theory.

Palpatine, if indeed he is VERY old, is actually Dooku's father. He allow the Jedi to take him, so that one day, when needed he could call upon him to join him as a Sith. Dooku, in turn is Anakin's father. This came about like this: Let's say that, sinc he's rich, he's allowed to go back and attend to his estate. Shmi is servant there. Not a slave mind you, more a maid. He (ahem) you get the drift, and now she's pregnant. Dooku leaves the Jedi order in part becuase of the disgrace of this. The Jedi want the baby to raise, but he will have no part of it seeing the corruption that is taking place in the senate. Besides, his real father has been guiding him along this path anyway. Palpatine wanted Dooku to learn the "secrets" of the Jedi so that's why he allowed them to take Dooku. As to how Palpatine is Dooku's father, he (Palpatine) impregnated Dooku's mother. Palpatine is not of the blod line of Dooku, so Dooku is actually a "bastard child" (real usage there, not cussing), but Dooku is accepted into the family. Anyway, while Dooku is training to be a Jedi, Palpatine takes on a Sith apprentince or two or three (before Darth Maul). They all are inadequate so Palpatine kills them and bides his time until he can find the one he needs to ascend to the rule of the galaxy.

Now, Dooku was somewhat rebellious to the Jedi. (Part of his Sith heritage) and that shows in how he brought up Qui-gon in his youth.

getting back to Shmi. She is sent away from the Dooku mansion. Dooku himself, wants to make sure she is taken cared of, but doesn't give her an easy life for bringing him shame, even though he really brought it on himself. Palpatine suggests that Dookus sends her to Tatooine. We know that Palpatine must have some connection to this and here's why. notice the little Nuna that Jabba flicks off his stnad at the Podrace. Nuna are indigineous to Naboo, Palpatine is the Senator for Naboo. So, it's easy to see that he worked out a deal with Jabba to watch over Anakin. (Also because Anakin would be his grandson!)

Moving on to Anakin, and this follows Tycho's thoery somewhat. After he kills Dooku, he finds out from mace that Dooku was his father. Of course he is furois of that and in turn kills Mace at the beheadst of Palpatine. (Who utters the now famous line of "Now take your father's place at my side") It may not be revealed to Anakin that Palpatine is his grandfather ever, but that doesn't really matter so much.

Fast forward to when Luke is told the same thing by the Emperor. Not only does Anakin/Vader not want Luke to turn, he doesn't want to lose his place in the galaxy so he attempts to usurp the Emperor by killing him, afterwards realizing this was a fatal mistake. But he comes to find that it was the right thing to do.


So...The Emperor is Luke's Great-GrandPalpy! er great-grandfather...

Palpatine begat Dooku, who begat Anakin, who begat Luke.

How's that for a plot twist?

Tycho
08-25-2004, 12:08 PM
How's that for a twist?

Very complicated.

I don't know it it will all go that deep. Anakin's "virgin birth" is either exactly that, or it needs to be resolved.

I think Palpatine needs to be detached from it though, as I'm not sure how the movies would play out if he were killing his own offspring.

The Nuna and Jabba is a good observation, though there are a lot of explanations possible for that.


I think Mace, Sifo-Dyas (whoever that is), and Dooku are all in on a conspiracy though. It was not a Sith one, and Mace is not a Dark Sider. Mace is very contemplative and does not get up from his seat when Padme enters after having just survived assasination. Yoda also looks at Mace disapprovingly about the Clone Army, etc. etc.

Well, Mace could be a Dark Sider, but his usefulness to Palpatine would be over by Episode 3 if that were the case, since Palpatine helps Anakin kill him.

That Mace, and Dooku (as a good guy at one point 14 years ago), hatched a plan, possibly with Sifo-Dyas to infiltrate the Sith, and this reckless plan was not approved of (or even known) by the full Jedi Council is more likely. Yoda was not informed of it either, but has since figured it out, hence all the disapproving looks he gives Mace and the comment about older Jedi being too arrogant and sure of themselves.

I think Yoda also knows Palpatine is the Sith Lord. But just because he knows doesn't mean he can act on it without evidence. Mace tries this in Episode 3 if you want to know why the Jedi can't.

Palpatine has it all set up:

first and foremost he kills Mace with Anakin
2nd, Dooku was a Jedi and commands the Separatists
3rd the Jedi authorized a Clone Army (supposedly) to fight the Seppies
4th the whole galaxy is distraught and plauged by the civil war
5 - should Palpatine add these things up for the public, along with an assassination attempt on his life (and he's popular and the ELECTED official) then he can call for the destruction of the Jedi (their "arrest and trial" only they are resisting arrest).

So I don't think Mace is evil. I think he took a rogue, unapproved action and compounds it with another one that costs him his life.

Tycho
08-25-2004, 12:14 PM
Stillakid, again:



Han's setup:

Han wears black and white (vest and shirt) like a Clone. Colors do matter.
Han has blue pants (like Clone Pilots have blue stripes). Han has a red bloodstripe (EU aside, this is like Clone Captains).

Every wardrobe change Han has, he wears something close to black and white. When he's a general, he has gold stripes (like a Clone Commander).

Boba Fett is Han's chief rival (like Vader is Luke's nemesis).

Boba Fett is a singularly unique Clone, unlike any of the others.

Han SOLO is a solo-unique Clone, unlike any of HIS others. (read the EU part about Denn Solo, Thracken Sal-Solo, etc. to see how it is all still possible).


Boba Fett is unique because Jango requested a son to raise himself. "Slave-One." Clones are sort of slaves if you use that connotation. They aren't independent but obedient. Jango doesn't own his clones, but his son is his own.

Han is unique because he got separated from his Clone compatriots (based off a new breed since Jango was dead and fresh DNA running out). Han raised himself (along with Garris Shrike and Dewlanna to bring in Expanded Universe) Han Solo

I think Timothy Zahn knew and picked up on this when he used Talon Karrde and named the ship the Wild Karrde. Talon is another smuggler who has a penchant for name games - as Karrde does this with all his aliases.

Now back to: BOTH Han and Boba Fett:

have unconventional customized ships
are the quickest draws in a gun battle from across the galaxy
are dispassioned mercenaries out for a paycheck
are not officially Rebel or Imperial - just work for them (until ROTJ for Han)
were survivors: from being orphaned at an early age.
wear Clone Trooper rank colors
know about hiding on the back of Imperial cruisers (in asteroid fields, whatever)
always know how to adapt (Han using the TaunTaun to save Luke)
one rescues, one brings in bounties - both find and locate others

Fett and Han are extreme rivals:

Fett sees Han's line as replacing and making obsolete the promise of a new Mandalorian Army. All the new Clones are not of Jango and they are not wearing Mandalorian armor anymore (like E2 Clone Troopers do).

Fett was made to be indpendent: Han is a fluke from that replacement line and "in Fett's opinion" should have obeyed his programming, but instead is especially threatening becauce Han "takes orders from just one person - [himself]"


Now why else would Lucas not allow EU authors to write stories about Han's mother and father, where he came from etc?

Han is the last remaining main-character without his backstory closed (except for Palpatine and Yoda perhaps)

In mythology, the heroes are all arch-types that meet their destiny. Some fans want Han to be "just a regular guy." I don't think SW is "just a regular story."

That is all part of the coincidence in fantasy:

a scared lion
a rusting Tin Man
a little girl
a dog
a scarecrow that's brave - all go off to find the Wizard of Oz.

A farmboy with a famous father
a young Princess-senator
an ex-Clone Soldier
a "dog"
a Tin Man (or 2) - all go off to find the Justice of The Force.

The regular guy just doesn't fit in there.

Star Wars is "realistic" in its background - the used universe look.

Nothing is said about not having fate, coincidence, and arch-types that all fulfill some destiny they were made for though.

stillakid
08-26-2004, 09:02 AM
Stillakid, again:

No, yeah, I get it. "Oneders."

I'm sure that with enough free time somebody could pull those "coincidences" (like clothing) out of the films. :sur: That's assuming that Lucas did it all on purpose, of course. Who's to say at this point? But anyway, what I'm saying is that even if it is true, it's dumb dumb dumb. It's the dumb cutesy 2nd grade joke (Han Solo, get it, So...Lo) that has gone too far. Han was a random rogue pilot who came into the story when needed and, aside from the side love affair thing, did no more and no less than what was necessary to advance the plot. Injecting a little "backstory" into his overall motivation is not only unnecessary, but potentially detrimental to what we've already come to know and love about who he is and what he stands for.

Based solely on the OT films, it is more than reasonable to accept that for all intents and purposes, "society" has broken down as the the Empire struggles to wrest control back. Former "good guys" find it impossible to survive legitimately so, like Han, they find a good "job" in the smuggling trade. Heck, just look at Iraq for a real example of that. So Han Solo was just a name...a name that almost too obviously pointed to his independent spirit...being on the outskirts of civilized society. But a funny thing happened on the way to Episide V...the character was big hit so his role expanded to fill the audience desire. Everybody loved Harrison Ford so he got to participate more and more...but only to the point where it was necessary and relevant. No more...no less. So this whole "he was a clone" thing has no bearing on what we've already seen and would only further the existing complaints that the Star Wars universe is getting claustrophobic.

Lucas is already f'ing up by revealing the identity of Vader in the middle of the "book." (Ey, Mr. Holmes, you've discovered the murderer already. Now what'll we do for the next 18 chapters?) Doing stupid sh8T like this (solo, mace, stork by the name of Obi Wan delivers babies around the galaxy), Lucas will have put the nail in his own coffin once and for all.

Imperial Monarche
08-26-2004, 10:15 AM
For once, I will have to agree with Stillakid. Having Dooku as Anakin's father is not only cheesy but will forever beg the question: Haven't I seen this all before? Unlike Stilla, though, I do like the PT and like the direction they are going, but that's neither here nor there. The point is, by rehashing plot twists from ESB it will not be a twist. The simple fact that you are guessing that this is what will happen makes it not a twist. Come on now, I don't agree with Dooku being the father.
The thing with Han being a clone trooper: it would be cool to see Harrison in ROTS for a quick few secs, but it's unneeded. And if you seriously think Lucas had this planned out from the beginning of ANH, you really need to rethink that. I do think there were very few things about the PT that Lucas had planned out from the beginning, but that's major plot points like the fall of Anakin and the Republic. But, the backstory to Han is not one of them. It's purely coincidence that you found those simularities. Besides, you say that in the Star Wars story, there's no room for the regular guy...but yet Luke is just a farmer and he's not regular. Compared to Luke, Han is pretty abnormal...he's a pirate and a smuggler. Come on!

mabudonicus
08-26-2004, 12:08 PM
Ahhhh, one more fact to help the "what yoda knows" part of this theory....
Yoda himself goes to Kamino, ostensibly to "check out" the new clone army; I believe that he went there to confirm the identity of the one who actually ordered them (most likely something he always suspected, but tried to bury a la "now your thoughts have betrayed her, too"- he knew that if anyone knew that he himself was onto the whole plot, his own chance of doing anything about it may be taken away)
This would explain why Yoda took command of the clone army, a decidedly un-Jedi organization... First, he wanted to appear to be "playing into their hands"; but at the same time there is a chance that this move threw a curveball to the masterplanner, Palpatine...
I still think it's weird how, in the Jedi order, no-one can clearly recall the fate of "master Syfo Dias" and better than to vaguely recall his passing in "unfortunate" circumstances... and when his name got linked to the whole clones thing, no-one thought to check it out at all, not even to look ata pic of him or anything; this, to me at least, suggests some sort of deliberate "blurring" of whole affair

And Stilla, since when did "plausible" have anything to do with it??? A Virgin Birth???? Personally, I find that harder to believe than any other fact of the PT(me being a pragmatic agnostic, of sorts ;)) ANY convoluted explanation would be automatically more plausible to me, at least :beard: :beard:

ronhudy
08-26-2004, 12:24 PM
As far as the Mace scenario goes, it too lacks from any kind of plausible setup. If Episode III were to show us that he is suddenly evil, no doubt the audience would be left scratching it's head wondering where it came from.

Maybe Mace Windu is the great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather of the crippled comic guy in M. Night Shymalan's "Unbreakable"...

stillakid
08-26-2004, 08:40 PM
And Stilla, since when did "plausible" have anything to do with it??? A Virgin Birth???? Personally, I find that harder to believe than any other fact of the PT(me being a pragmatic agnostic, of sorts ;)) ANY convoluted explanation would be automatically more plausible to me, at least :beard: :beard:


:) Well, there's always a certain amount of leaway that an audience gives to the filmmaker as they suspend their disbelief. But the mission of the storyteller is to not press his luck. Once a particular paradigm is established, the audience has to be on board lest nothing afterwards will be worth a damn. I'm lacking any great examples at the moment, but let's take something like Stargate for example. If the audience refuses to buy the fundamental concept (of a "door" that transports you from one spot in the galaxy to another), then absolutely nothing else about that plot matters anymore, no matter how well written, acted, or designed.

So when I refer to "plausible" for Star Wars, ostensibly it takes less, not more, effort to suspend your disbelief primarily because this whole thing is set in a foreign world to ours. We expect that a Stargate story should be well-grounded in reality because it's set here to begin with. But Star Wars is allowed some free passes because, well, it's over there somewhere. So we allow for things like laser swords, the "Force," spaceships and laser guns. Even a virgin birth somehow resides in that realm of acceptability even though it is easily recognizable as a "nod" to rather Earthly religious myth. So singular "elements" in and of themselves can be accepted quite easily by an audience so long as the writer takes care to keep a respectable distance from our own reality. (ie, if Lucas suddenly felt the need to explain how lightsabers really work, then I'd expect you'd see similar reactions as to the Midichlorian topic.) But when any story of any kind chooses to use severely unlikely chains of events to get from point A to point B and beyond, the audience isn't quite as forgiving...or at least they shouldn't be.

Tycho
08-27-2004, 03:06 AM
More on Han being grown to be a Clone Trooper:

Han dislikes droids and can't stand C-3PO.

Clones were trained to fight droids originally.


In the saga bookends....

TPM only sees a victory AGAINST THE DROIDS by the primatives (Gungans) and humans (Naboo) banding together. The Jedi and the Sith handled most of their affairs separately.

ROTJ sees a victory AGAINST THE SITH when humans (Rebels), primatives (Ewoks), Jedi (Luke) and Droids (R2D2 and C-3PO) all team up together, uniting the galaxy's sentients proving "we all can get along."



Also the danger-factor of Stormtroopers are increased when you know they are clones like Han.

They become warriors as capable as Han himself - and that demonstrates how tough it might be if Luke and Leia ever had to fight Han!

Also, it makes the Troopers every bit as capable and equal to Han as is conceivable, making his conflict with the Bikerscout and the Troopers leading him to the Bespin torture chair all the more dangerous and personal.

Han is always at extreme risk when he fights Stormtroopers since they are his equal.

When he chases them down the hall in the Death Star, they are afraid since they know what he is, and they think they'll "go insane like Han" too.

Otherwise, why else would stormtroopers run away from Han Luke Leia and Chewie?

On the Tantive IV, stormtroopers ran headlong INTO battle against 12 times more Rebel Fleet Troopers. So why be afraid of just 4 Rebels? Because Han is something deeply scarey to them: a malfunction of their perfect form.


No, I think Lucas DID have this part all figured out from the beginning. There were a lot of things he added like Jango Fett being the source of the first kind of Clones, but this was an "oldie but goodie from where he came from."

Reefer Shark
08-27-2004, 06:57 PM
I think the fact that Lucas is changing the Stormtroopers voices to Jangos voice in the OT dvd's debunks the Han/clone Stormy theory.

I'm not sure about the Dooku/Anakin theory though. I suppose it's plausible, but for some reason I doubt it.

Tycho
08-27-2004, 07:26 PM
Can anyone confirm that Lucas is changing the OT Stormtroopers' voices to Jango's (Temura Morrison?)

This would have to have been done already. The DVD's are going to ship in like 30 days, so they have to have been completely mass-produced, quality tested, and have been packaged by now.

I'm not sure they are doing this, ReeferShark. It makes more sense to leave it alone or make Han a clone, than make "the good clones" bad.

I rather like the idea of the new clones being bad - not the Mandalorians.

by the way, and this does not refer to Reefershark, anyone new posting here, read the last page before you slap down your opinion of my theory, please.

stillakid
08-27-2004, 11:23 PM
Han is always at extreme risk when he fights Stormtroopers since they are his equal.

When he chases them down the hall in the Death Star, they are afraid since they know what he is, and they think they'll "go insane like Han" too.

Otherwise, why else would stormtroopers run away from Han Luke Leia and Chewie?

On the Tantive IV, stormtroopers ran headlong INTO battle against 12 times more Rebel Fleet Troopers. So why be afraid of just 4 Rebels? Because Han is something deeply scarey to them: a malfunction of their perfect form.



Okay, well I'll preface this as always by saying that anything is possible...but this last bit is quite a streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch. Seriously, they run from Han because "they know who he is"? Uh, well...no. I'll never buy into that even if Lucas himself has a press conference announcing that he meant to do that in 1975.

Tycho
08-28-2004, 05:05 AM
They know who he is because he looks just like they do when they take off their helmets.

I'll put it differently:

would an exact clone of you, scare you?

How about if it were doing exactly what you were doing? (In my opinion this would make your clone less scary and more predictable).

How about if it were doing something completely crazy, potentially violent, and its bad intentions were directed at you? (now that would be scary).

I think Han is the one character the Stormtroopers can really fear personally - for this reason.



I mean seriously, watch the classic trilogy while for kicks, presuming Han is a Clone - the type used for Stormies.

See what scenerios you come up with and how the broader implications read were Han a clone.

stillakid
08-28-2004, 11:28 AM
They know who he is because he looks just like they do when they take off their helmets.

I'll put it differently:

would an exact clone of you, scare you?

How about if it were doing exactly what you were doing? (In my opinion this would make your clone less scary and more predictable).

How about if it were doing something completely crazy, potentially violent, and its bad intentions were directed at you? (now that would be scary).

I think Han is the one character the Stormtroopers can really fear personally - for this reason.



I mean seriously, watch the classic trilogy while for kicks, presuming Han is a Clone - the type used for Stormies.

See what scenerios you come up with and how the broader implications read were Han a clone.

Uh, so how do all the Rebels feel about this? Undoubtedly, they know what Stormtroopers look like, and in your scenario, they all look like HAN! Do you really think that the Rebellion would just let a guy who looks like all the stormtroopers roam around and take command of a vital part of an invasion mission (Endor)?

In fact, if your theory is true, I'd really really really like to see the scene in ANH when Luke and Han steal the armor while on the Falcon. I'm not sure if would be comical or creepy. Maybe both. :sur:

Tycho
08-28-2004, 04:52 PM
Yes! That's why they don't show the scene when Han and Luke take the Stormtrooper armor!

What's wrong with showing troopers entering the Falcon and getting jumped?

They could have showed that and it'd been cool. But they didn't because Luke was probably shocked to learn what Han was.

Obi-Wan already knew, such that he laughs when Han says "No mystical energy field controls my destiny" - yet the Clones' very existence came about because there was a Force and Jedi and Sith fighting to control it.


The Rebels wouldn't trust Han. "I see you found an excuse to keep me around here a little while longer, Your Highness."

"General Rieekan thinks it's dangerous to let any ships leave until after we've activated the energy shield."

Maybe they don't trust Han yet, even then. In the Marvel Comics, they didn't trust Han because he hadn't signed up for the Rebellion.

But in Han's "determining his own destiny speech" and all we've already learned about predetermination from "the will of the Force," Han left CloneTrooper service when separated from his unit as an 11 year old (5 in Clone terms), and then he spent until age 19 struggling to escape slavery so he could earn his way back into the Imperial Academy and return to military life. Talk about pre-destined....


Meanwhile, I have a good idea where Han (TK-1138 for lack of knowing his designation) is separated from his clone compatriots: Kashyyyk!

Chewie and he probably encountered each other back then, and through scent recognition, Chewie recounts this to himself. Han probably is involved somehow in the Kashyyyk invasion and might even cross paths with Yoda.

He will not team up with Chewie then, but like I said, Chewie will recognize him when they meet again when Han's 23. In the meanwhile, he'll have met and admired Wookiees and liked them since he was a kid, explaining how he becomes friends with Dewlanna in the Expanded Universe and knows Wookiee so well.

It's so obvious that I'm going to write Lucasfilm and beg them to include this.

Nothing says they are doing it this way. Everyone else says they are not just because of whatever Pablo Hildago and TFN folks say (who are on the inside of cover-ups or not-in-the-know to start with in the first place), but all of this is so well capable of being set up like I outlined it, it'd be ridiculous not to use it.

Slicker
08-28-2004, 05:21 PM
If Han is 19 (9 in clone years) when the clones invade Kashyyyk and ROTS takes place approx. 30 years before ANH would that not make Han 49 in normal years. I'm not big on the Star Wars timeline but from what I've read of yours Tycho this is what I could gather. Please clear me up if I'm wrong.

stillakid
08-28-2004, 06:43 PM
Yes! That's why they don't show the scene when Han and Luke take the Stormtrooper armor!

What's wrong with showing troopers entering the Falcon and getting jumped?

They could have showed that and it'd been cool. But they didn't because Luke was probably shocked to learn what Han was.


Well, no, they didn't show it because making a film is about choosing the best points of view to tell the story from. In that case, there was a bit of suspense buildup as we know our heros are on the ship but the audience has no idea why the first wave of troops hasn't found them. Vader is given a report saying that some escape pods were jetisoned so maybe they did ditch (after Obi says "there are alternatives to fighting.") The mystery finally reveals itself the moment the door opens and reveals a Wookie standing there. So no, they didn't avoid showing the Stormtroopers being "dearmored" because of some kind of identity crisis.

But really, more importantly, since you're hellbent on digging this one out of the mire, let's go all the way back to the cantina. Of all people, surely Old Ben would be aware that all Stormtroopers look like Han. So what praytell would be his motivation for picking this one smuggler from a crowd of many? Ben's got no reason to trust anyone, so laying it on the line with a potential Imperial spy at that point would be downright stupid, not to mention everyone else (criminals) wandering around the Cantina who undoubtedly are aware of what Stormtroopers look like under that armor (if they are clones...which is another really really moronic decision by Lucas if true).

Tycho
08-29-2004, 01:42 AM
Slicker first, then Stillakid.

SLICKER:

TPM = 32 years before ANH
AOTC = 22 years before ANH
ROTS = 18 years before ANH (Luke and Leia are born)
ANH = when Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia (Twins) are 18 years old

EXPANDED UNIVERSE

"The Paradise Snare" - Han Solo is 19 years old when he has escaped slavery (of Garris Shrike) and entered the Imperial Academy to become an officer.

4 year academy training. Han is 23 years old when he graduates and earns a commission as a Lt. JG in the Imperial Navy and is assigned to a TIE Fighter Squadron.

"The Hutt Gambit" - (not in the novel, but alluded to and then show in Dark Horse's "Chewbacca" tribute comic): the same year Han has "made it" to becoming a pilot, his squadron is sent to stop the disruption of Trandoshan slave trading in the Kashyyyk system. Chewbacca has heroically taken it upon himself to rescue his love Malla (a Wookiee school teacher) and her students (cub-children) who were taken by Trandoshan slavers. Chewie lets the other Wookiees escape and risks capture himself by the Imperials in order to lead them away as a decoy. Chewie is captured by a TIE (bomber) boarding vehicle commanded by Lt. Han Solo. Chewie is sentenced to slavery as penance for the slaves lost and punishment for the killing of the Trandoshan crew (who's arms were torn out of their sockets). But Han hates slavery and has second thoughts and as his unit is returned to Coruscant, he makes it his mission to find Chewie and free him. "The Hutt Gambit" starts as Chewie decides to bestow a life-debt on Han for his act of kindness and saving Chewbacca from a life of slavery (Chewie was a slave for less than several MONTHS only - and probably would've escaped without Han, though I'm not sure - Han might've deactivated one of those slave-detonator devices as part of his help in orchestrating Chewie's break).

Lando has the Falcon while Han is 25 to 26. "Lando Calrissian Adventures."

"Han Solo at Star's End" - Han gets the Falcon (told of during "Rebel Dawn") and takes off for the Corporate Sector. Han is 27.

"Han Solo's Revenge" - Han is 28.

"Han Solo and the Lost Legacy" - Han is 28.

"Rebel Dawn" - Starts while Han is 26, then has flashbacks to the year in the Corporate Sector. Then leads up to Han's tangle with the Rebel Alliance in its very first year - Han is 29.


"A NEW HOPE" - Han is 29 (11 years older than Luke and Leia).

So if Han is 29 in ANH, he is 11 in ROTS.


HAN IS 11 YEARS OLD IN ROTS.

This is 4 years after AOTC and Jango's death. A new breed of Clone could have been made sometime just after Geonosis, and growth accelerated a 4 year old Clone could appear to be 11 chronologically.

In AOTC we see the 10 year old Daniel Logan playing "this group of clones was created 5 years ago."

Obi-Wan: "You mentioned growth acceleration."

Lama Su: "Ah yes. We speed up their development. If not a mature clone would take a lifetime to grow."


So Han is BOTH 29 and 23 simultaneously in ANH. He was created 23 years ago, but aged a little, so he's 29 for all medical standards.

Luke and Leia are 18, so Han is either 5 years older than them, or 11 years. However you want to look at it.


Han is my favorite SW character, so I am an expert on all things "Solo."

And

Paradise Snare
Hutt Gambit
Rebel Dawn

are the very best Star Wars books ever written if you really want to read some good EU. A.C. Crispin (Anne Crispin - one of the few good FEMALE Star Wars writers) got personal direction from George Lucas in writing these books - it was acknowledged in the SW Insider interview and in her credits and acknowledgments in the book. One thing she was not allowed to do was tell how Han first met Chewie. Some speculate that the Comic showed this - my own theory is that Chewie met Han once before - when he was 11, and stationed on Kashyyyk as part of a training mission for new Clones who were needed as backups due to the hard-pressed Clone Army who were suffering devastating losses in the Clone Wars, and might as well have used all their resources including Clone Kids (just like Al Queada uses kid suicide bombers, etc).


--------------------------------------------------------------------

STILLAKID:

Obi-Wan says there are alternatives to fighting, and then after Stormtroopers search the ship and report to Vader "no one was aboard" we see the crew come out of the smuggling compartments, so we know what happened to them well before the Imperial opens the door.

You like to laud the original Star Wars so much, why don't you try watching it? - or tell us how long has it been?

"It's lucky you have these compartments."

"I use them for smuggling, Kid. I never thought I'd be smuggling myself in one of them. This is ridculous. Even if I could take off - I'd never be able to get past that tractor beam."

"Leave that to me."

"Damned fool! I just knew that you were going to say that."

"Who the more foolish: the fool or the fool that follows him?"

[OUTSIDE]

"The ships's all yours. If the scanners report anything, report it immediately."

"Alright. Let's go."

"Hey down there! Could you give us a hand with this?"

"TK-421 why aren't you at your post? TK-421: do you copy?"

"Take over. We got a bad transmitter. I'll see what I can do."

"RaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwllllllLLLLL!"


Sorry Stillakid. With the Falcon TOY coming with a smuggling compartment, it still amazes me that you don't know what you're talking about!



[I just wanted to write that. I'm sure Stillakid knows the scene and just skipped ahead to reveal that we didn't know they donned Stormtrooper gear until after Han took off his helmet. That's probably his point as to add mystery to the drama and a quick surprise in the film. Still, if that wasn't the point, they could have shown the troopers getting attacked as they boarded the Falcon after "Could you give us some help with this?"]



But really, more importantly, since you're hellbent on digging this one out of the mire, let's go all the way back to the cantina. Of all people, surely Old Ben would be aware that all Stormtroopers look like Han. So what praytell would be his motivation for picking this one smuggler from a crowd of many? Ben's got no reason to trust anyone, so laying it on the line with a potential Imperial spy at that point would be downright stupid

Ben met Chewie first. And a Clone with a Wookiee lifedebt pledged to him would be no Imperial or anyone working for the Imperials. I mean it's ridiculous, but suppose some random trooper saves a Wookiee, would the Empire tolerate that Clone having a tag-along Wookiee running along with it through the corridoors of the Death Star, or give the Wook a TIE Fighter to be the Clone's wingman? No - Han had to be "Solo" as in one-of-a-kind.

That's the BEST reason to trust Han over all the other criminal-smuggler types. It showed his moral character to Ben instantly.


not to mention everyone else (criminals) wandering around the Cantina who undoubtedly are aware of what Stormtroopers look like under that armor (if they are clones...which is another really really moronic decision by Lucas if true).

Why would others know what Stormtroopers look like under their armor? The few that may have killed some (ON THE OUTER RIM - outside of the regular Empire - since Tatooine was not part of the Republic to begin with), might see what Han is, but that just means he's a trained soldier and very dangerous. Not to mention there's the Chewbacca factor.

And the Empire had no bounty on Solo. They let him back in to the Academy, probably knowing what he was better than he could remember. But a soldier willing to serve? With pilot capabilities? (Han had already learned to fly smuggling for the Hutts before he became a TIE Pilot) Why not let him back in? He's PROGRAMMED to seek order, a soldier's life, etc. according to everything Imperials should come to believe about him if they know what he is. But they were wrong, and Han saved Chewie all those years ago.

In any case, the bounty was placed on Solo because he dumped Jabba's illegal drugs. Greedo and others didn't care if he was a Clone or not - once the money made the risk worth it (and Chewie was not around) Greedo made his move.


Meanwhile, what is moronic about having Stormtroopers be clones? When Leia shoots one in the beginning of ANH, the others could care less. "She'll be alright. Tell Lord Vader we have a prisoner."

Not "Dave! Oh Davie! She shot you Davie! Hango on their Bubba. We'll get you back to the doctor so they can save you and send you back to the platoon!"


Some Stormtroopers were

Enlisted - you had to be the type to do that job.... :rolleyes:

Conscripted (drafted) - force you to send your son to mandatory service with the Emprie

Clones - easier to replace, come ready-trained, no planet-wide rebellions over military drafts, etc.

That's OK though. Stillakid won't believe me. His definative version of the prequels will be produced soon. He's so distraught by his misunderstanding of the Classic Star Wars films that he's raising money to buy SW from Lucas and "correct the films." At least Greedo will no longer shoot first.

stillakid
08-29-2004, 10:02 AM
STILLAKID:

Obi-Wan says there are alternatives to fighting, and then after Stormtroopers search the ship and report to Vader "no one was aboard" we see the crew come out of the smuggling compartments, so we know what happened to them well before the Imperial opens the door.

You like to laud the original Star Wars so much, why don't you try watching it? - or tell us how long has it been?
...

Sorry Stillakid. With the Falcon TOY coming with a smuggling compartment, it still amazes me that you don't know what you're talking about!



[I just wanted to write that. I'm sure Stillakid knows the scene and just skipped ahead to reveal that we didn't know they donned Stormtrooper gear until after Han took off his helmet. That's probably his point as to add mystery to the drama and a quick surprise in the film. Still, if that wasn't the point, they could have shown the troopers getting attacked as they boarded the Falcon after "Could you give us some help with this?"]

Exactly. The point was that we didn't know about the armor switch (well, we did, but the point was that we weren't supposed to...the movie's point of view switched to that of the Imperials). And the armor switch, again, was not shown not because of this nonsense about Harrison Ford being under all of those masks. There were several reasons including that if we were "trapped" onboard the Falcon for that sequence, it would have dragged the story progress down to a stop as we waited for the heros to first remove the trooper armor. Then remove their own clothes. Then watch them put the armor on. Then watch Luke as he goes down the ramp to point at his helmet. Then watch them leave the Falcon, unseen, so that Chewy can be standing on the outside of the door to surprise the Imperial inside.

Making a story is all about perspective and choosing points of view to tell it from. Lucas (Huyck and Katz) wisely chose to stay away from the time killing "business" and moved the focus over to a random Imperial so that all of that "business" could be truncated. That's just basic writing skill.




Ben met Chewie first. And a Clone with a Wookiee lifedebt pledged to him would be no Imperial or anyone working for the Imperials. I mean it's ridiculous, but suppose some random trooper saves a Wookiee, would the Empire tolerate that Clone having a tag-along Wookiee running along with it through the corridoors of the Death Star, or give the Wook a TIE Fighter to be the Clone's wingman? No - Han had to be "Solo" as in one-of-a-kind.

That's the BEST reason to trust Han over all the other criminal-smuggler types. It showed his moral character to Ben instantly.
Uh, I'll just disagree with that and leave it there. A pretty unlikely scenario you describe.




Why would others know what Stormtroopers look like under their armor? The few that may have killed some (ON THE OUTER RIM - outside of the regular Empire - since Tatooine was not part of the Republic to begin with), might see what Han is, but that just means he's a trained soldier and very dangerous. Not to mention there's the Chewbacca factor.
Are you kidding? Why wouldn't they know what a "stormtrooper" really looks like? This would be common knowledge by this point I would think. And again, having a unmasked trooper (which is essentially what you're saying) walking around would raise a few eyebrows.


And the Empire had no bounty on Solo. They let him back in to the Academy, probably knowing what he was better than he could remember. But a soldier willing to serve? With pilot capabilities? (Han had already learned to fly smuggling for the Hutts before he became a TIE Pilot) Why not let him back in? He's PROGRAMMED to seek order, a soldier's life, etc. according to everything Imperials should come to believe about him if they know what he is. But they were wrong, and Han saved Chewie all those years ago.
What's the Academy stuff you keep throwing around? You use Expanded Universe as freely as water. If we're going to go there, then do your best to explain just how Owen Lars can be Obi Wan's brother and Anakin's stepdad at the same time.

As far as we know from the films (which I am told are the only sanctioned versions of the stories and characters), Han is just a random rogue smuggler. Period. If you're going to argue any more of this, try to keep it to the sanctioned facts. If that's not possible, then first address the Lars issue to my satisfaction then we'll move on from there. :)


In any case, the bounty was placed on Solo because he dumped Jabba's illegal drugs. Greedo and others didn't care if he was a Clone or not - once the money made the risk worth it (and Chewie was not around) Greedo made his move.
The issue isn't the bounty. The problem comes in way before that. Just having a "clone" wandering around is sure to raise suspicions. It would be like in BLADERUNNER if all the replicants looked the same and one got loose. In fact, by your scenario, the Empire should have a bounty out on Solo for being an "escaped" clone. It would be odd that they'd allow one of their "property" to just leave and go have a life of it's own.


Meanwhile, what is moronic about having Stormtroopers be clones? When Leia shoots one in the beginning of ANH, the others could care less. "She'll be alright. Tell Lord Vader we have a prisoner."
What's moronic? Aside from just being dumb, as a fan of all the Expanded Universe, how do you reconcile the EU which describes Stormtroopers as being conscripts from a thousand worlds? That's a far more "realistic" kind of concept for this army than doing some geeked out Dungeons and Dragons cloning thing.



Some Stormtroopers were

Enlisted - you had to be the type to do that job.... :rolleyes:

Conscripted (drafted) - force you to send your son to mandatory service with the Emprie

Clones - easier to replace, come ready-trained, no planet-wide rebellions over military drafts, etc.
Oh, so you're changing the story now and saying that a Stormtrooper isn't always a clone? Situational ethics, eh? Alter the paradigm when it no longer fits the theory. Ok, if that's the game, then anything goes I suppose. There's no way to argue with that kind of logic. Where's that Jesus thread?



That's OK though. Stillakid won't believe me. His definative version of the prequels will be produced soon. He's so distraught by his misunderstanding of the Classic Star Wars films that he's raising money to buy SW from Lucas and "correct the films." At least Greedo will no longer shoot first.
It's not that I don't believe you, it's that your logic isn't holding up. I can see where you are digging for "proof" from otherwise unrelated moments in the OT to support the Solo theory, but that's all it really is...digging. Just like the game of statistics, you can take almost any data and jigger it to fit what it is you want it to say. But that doesn't mean that your conclusion is right to begin with. Of all people, I would think that you'd know that best.

As far as "my understanding" of Star Wars, I understand it perfectly. I understand it so well in fact that I haven't been blinded by the flawed Prequels. Look, it all comes down to an individual's desire to either accept the story as it is progressing or not. For someone like you who chooses to accept how Lucas is rewriting the story, you're willing to wiggle the original intentions of the established story to fit the new paradigm. You're accepting the new situation and adapting the old intentions to something that is entirely new. I (and many many others) aren't willing to do that. I know what the point of the OT was (as written by Huyck, Katz, and Kasdan) and what they meant to achieve. I can see how Lucas is changing that (and I think I know why he is doing it). You think it's okay and deal with it by rationalizing out the changes. I don't think it's okay and choose to point out the discrepencies. That's the only difference between Prequel lovers and those of us that are disappointed. That's why I describe Prequel Lovers as Lucas-ites...because they are more supportive of Lucas and his decisions than of the story itself.

To each his own.


And my version of the Prequels should be produced soon. :D I GUARANTEE the "general audience" crowds (like the old days) would be dancing in the streets and not just the uber-Star Wars geeks.

jedi master sal
08-30-2004, 04:38 PM
Tycho, I'm with you on alot of things, but the Solo is a new clone theory has got to go.

Han was "Solo" becuase he was unique. Not becuase he was a clone.

If the clones were his equal then why couldn't they shoot the broad side of a barn with a bazooka? They're horrible shots, yet we know Han to one of the bst and fastest shots out there.

I think you're reaching too far, and thinking too much about this. Yeah, I added to your theory, but I was just having fun. I think you truly believe Han is a clone.

"We live in a real world, come back to it" (ala Padme-AOTC)

Seriously though my man, Han is just a rogue pilot who does things his way. He hooks up with the rest of the heroes along the way and becomes one himself. That's a classic plot line and doesn't really need to be delved into any further. I appreciate your need to banter with stilla, but yours is truly a theory, while stillas for the most part is grounded in canon. We won't know until the movie comes out. If your right, fine, but going on JUST the movies already out, the likelyhood of this theory panning out, is as likely as me being ROTS - nil.

Your a friend my man so I say this to you as such, pull back a little and see how ridiculous this theory, now turned argument, has become.

Not everything needs to be interwined for it all to work. I dare say that Lucas is going too far with some of the intertwining of the trilogies. We don't need to egg him on any further. It's a immense galaxy. I find it hard to believe that a few people could be pulling ALL the strings or bring it together. We dont' even see that on our one little planet called earth.

Tycho
08-30-2004, 08:31 PM
It's a immense galaxy. I find it hard to believe that a few people could be pulling ALL the strings or bring it together. We dont' even see that on our one little planet called earth.

Actually, we do. Go to the Fahrenheit 911 thread in the Rancor Pit for further discussion.

Meanwhile, I'll get back to it if there is anything else I want to respond to here.

jedi master sal
08-31-2004, 11:24 AM
I won't even begin to argue for or against F 9-11.

Even if you do believe that the upper crust pulls the strigns for the rest of the world, it's hardly justa few people. Equate that to the SW galaxy where there are thousands upon thousands of populated planets. Palpatine did not control all of these. Ryloth was still ruled by the Twi'Lek clans. Corellia still was part of CorSec. during the time of the Empire.

Anyway, putting that all aside, all I was really trying to say was Han is not a clone.

Darkness Shroud
08-31-2004, 12:42 PM
Anymore tinkering with the original trilogy or its characters and i off to be a Star Trek fan. :rolleyes: :crazed: :)

Darth Rend
08-31-2004, 12:59 PM
uuugh.....reading this thread reminded me of why I HATE the EU.

I mean, "Han Solo's EVIL COUSIN?" ug.:dis: Just POOR writing.

I do totally respect that you took the time and thought to come up with background that fits all continuity and all, but there's one reason I think it will not come to pass.

Lucasfilm doesn't take the EU seriously, either.

I mean, sure it pays the bills. But Lucas has reserved the right to change and/or completely re-write any EU material on the screen. Why? Because they realize how outlandish most of the EU is. Evil cousins, giant space rabbits, and everyone and thier MOTHER knowing everyone else in the universe.

It's cool that you enjoyed the books...they are certianly there to entertain, fun little "what if" tales to satiate our hunger for more material. But thats not to say it's cannon. If you enjoy it, read it, and be entertianed. If you feel it DETRACTS from what you love about Star Wars, DON'T read it.

My point is, don't expect that Lucasfilm will take EU cannon into account, because they don't.

(PS. As for me, I disagree with the "This isn't your typical universe" statement. I think some people SHOULD just be regular guys, or else our heros don't stand out from every other adventure-seeking character we see. And for dramatic purposes, too. I mean, is a common peasent who takes up a sword and has an amazing one-time adventure to save the family shop any less of a interesting story that a knight of the kings court who has adventure's every single day?)

Tycho
08-31-2004, 03:20 PM
The "Han is a new kind of Clone Theory" does not depend on ANY Expanded Universe, actually.

The EU is written though, under guidelines to not contradict what will be in the films past or future.

I was only using the AC Crispin trilogy to demonstrate that if Han is a clone, it won't contradict the EU.

But my earliest posts show examples from the movies which would make the "Han a Clone Theory" still jive with all that's been on screen so far.

As to my personal tastes, I like the archetype heroes and don't care if Han is just a regular guy, but if he's something more, like a former kid being trained to be an ARC Trooper-type, then I think that's totally COOL! :cool:

chrisc
09-03-2004, 10:32 PM
As far as the Mace scenario goes, it too lacks from any kind of plausible setup. If Episode III were to show us that he is suddenly evil, no doubt the audience would be left scratching it's head wondering where it came from. [/I]

I feel Mace Windu will become evil in Episode 3. He has always had this dark air about him, and seems to be trying to cover something up. You can also see that he is kind of independent Jedi. He even has a special blade. Just my feelings on him. Only one way to find out though.

chewbacca71
09-06-2004, 07:19 PM
Tycho, you have a great imagination. I truly love reading what you cook up in that head of yours, but I think you give Lucas too much credit with having all of these back-stories thought up when he first filmed ANH. I think all the references you have brought up have been entirely coincidental and stretch at best.

Don't take this as an attack, like I said, I truly enjoy your stuff. Makes me wish I had the time to come up with all of that. :)

LTBasker
10-01-2004, 02:51 AM
How do you explain the brown pants Han had from ESB through ROTJ? We don't see any Clones wearing that color. For his costume to truly be like a Clone's, wouldn't his undershirt have to be black and his vest be white?

You don't think maybe the colors are just universal?... I mean, look at the prequel use:

Battle Droids Plain - (Foot Soldiers) - Clone Troopers Plain
Battle Droids Yellow - (Commander) - Clone Troopers Yellow
Battle Droids Red - (Captain) - Clone Troopers Red

Does that mean the Clones were also Droids?

We don't even know what the point of the Blue Clone Trooper or Green Clone Trooper colors were, true we know they were specific ranks- but what did they have to do with anything? Heck, those colors are pretty much translated to Star Trek as well. Think about it: TNG and up use Red as a Command color (mostly seen with Captain). TOS used Gold for Command.

True, there are a ton of coincidences that point one way or another, but that's what happens when you make prequels 15+ years after the originals and try to use similar story elements.

By trying to make a whole universe revolve around tie-ins with just a group of characters, it just makes it feel so small. Yeah there are people who are paranoid to think that happens on -one- solitary planet, but universal scale is entirely different.

Brainiak76
10-01-2004, 08:20 PM
all i can say is WOW :eek: ! this was a very crazy BUT GOOD read!! i dont know reallly what to think but thanx for the GOOD READ and please keep it coming! :classic:

Tycho
10-02-2004, 02:07 AM
I thought that maybe this thread got merged with my new one about the RETURN OF THE JEDI DVD: in the commentary during the Luke-Vader ROTJ Duel, Lucas confirms that Anakin had a father and he killed his own father to take his place at Palpatine's side.

Lucas did not say Dooku was the dad, but it's obvious by now since it's NOT immaculate conception and no more new characters other than General Grevious are being introduced.

I'll deal with several more Han's a Clone theory comments a little later. I'm extremely tired at the moment - just not tired enough to not take my moment when I can prove I was right about something ;) That's a great moment.

And I think I truly understand Star Wars

stillakid
10-02-2004, 09:39 AM
And I think I truly understand Star Wars

Now tell us about women. ;) Both are incomprehensible at this point.

sg_inr
10-23-2004, 02:00 AM
If you really think that Han Solo is a clone then you clearly dont realize that the SW films are movies and movies have to make atleast a little sence. I also think your mildly retarded for beleiving this ( I you realy do beleive it ). Snap out of it man, your theories really are rediculous and everyone on here thinks you are an idiot for spending hours upon hours typing full page after page of nonsence that not even a drunken lab monkey would start to give credit. Please stop the insanity!!!

2-1B
10-24-2004, 01:05 AM
At least Tycho can spell.

Elliejabbapop
10-24-2004, 12:23 PM
If you really think that Han Solo is a clone then you clearly dont realize that the SW films are movies and movies have to make atleast a little sence. I also think your mildly retarded for beleiving this ( I you realy do beleive it ). Snap out of it man, your theories really are rediculous and everyone on here thinks you are an idiot for spending hours upon hours typing full page after page of nonsence that not even a drunken lab monkey would start to give credit. Please stop the insanity!!!
I think I agree with you. Enough of all the nonsense!!!

Darth Mina
10-24-2004, 11:31 PM
If you really think that Han Solo is a clone then you clearly dont realize that the SW films are movies and movies have to make atleast a little sence. I also think your mildly retarded for beleiving this ( I you realy do beleive it ). Snap out of it man, your theories really are rediculous and everyone on here thinks you are an idiot for spending hours upon hours typing full page after page of nonsence that not even a drunken lab monkey would start to give credit. Please stop the insanity!!!
Wow Wow Please show some respect for others I might not like Ty theory but i do enjoy his imagination and his argumantative skills now of you don't like them or don't agree with them then move on but don't insult anyone that is not what we are all about and if you dissagree and want to post your opinion back it up like he does, argue your point hey who knows maybe you are right and we would all enjoy your argument

Elliejabbapop
10-25-2004, 06:56 AM
I don't think you would like to waist your time "backing up" something that probably won't even be considered with such wild theories going on.

Darkness Shroud
10-25-2004, 12:06 PM
At least Tycho can spell.
Darn it you beat me to that one-liner Caesar :D lol :)

Tycho
11-19-2004, 09:47 PM
Now that the EPISODE THREE Han Solo action figure is listed in the Revenge of the Sith products, you all will owe me some apologies.

I can't help it if I'm a genious.

Jedi_Master_Guyute
11-19-2004, 10:39 PM
Now that the EPISODE THREE Han Solo action figure is listed in the Revenge of the Sith products, you all will owe me some apologies.

I can't help it if I'm a genious.


Woah woah, clear out, this area's gettin' too small for us due to Tycho's head expanding thanks to his own ego! Clear out! Fire hazard! :D

Also, Tycho, it might help if you learn to spell what you think you are. I'll assume it was a joke, but genius is spelled like how i just spelled it. :crazed:

LTBasker
11-20-2004, 02:49 AM
Now that the EPISODE THREE Han Solo action figure is listed in the Revenge of the Sith products, you all will owe me some apologies.

I can't help it if I'm a genious.

It really doesn't prove anything, just like Tarkin being in it. That doesn't mean that he's a clone. Han could be a bystander seeing the Wookiees get mistreated, which would lead to his friendship with Chewie.

Frankly if he does turn out a Clone, props to you for predicting it. But that doesn't mean it's a good plot point, frankly it's one of the worst cop-outs Lucas could ever come up with and completely unoriginal. Considering that wouldn't explain why the Stormtroopers all sound different and have different heights.

I can see it happening though, just like the whole Sidious/Palpatine plot. Lucas tried to make this stupid little thing all "mysterious" from TPM to AOTC, making me think that perhaps the obvious wasn't the answer. The OT wasn't so obvious afterall, I was hoping perhaps he still had something up his sleeve? No. He creates some stupid plot and sets it up like it's gonna be mysterious when people can see through it immediately just making it completely boring and pointless in the end.

Although I do find it interesting that Sidious is really an Ape from Congo.

stillakid
11-20-2004, 11:43 AM
It really doesn't prove anything, just like Tarkin being in it. That doesn't mean that he's a clone. Han could be a bystander seeing the Wookiees get mistreated, which would lead to his friendship with Chewie..
I was running this same thing through my head. While it's possible (and dumb as you also point out) that Han could be a clone (bleh!), it is also possible (though still dumb) that we will see him perhaps rescue a Wookie (Chewy) just as the rest of his Wookie family gets slaughtered or captured by an invading force. (This would contradict the Holiday Special "Life Day" continuity lol ) I think Luke was 19-ish during ANH which would put Solo around his mid-30s then. That would put Han in his mid to later teens during Episode III. Meh, it could happen, but another nail in the coffin. :ermm:

Slicker
11-21-2004, 12:05 AM
I'm waiting until Ep. 3 comes out so I can either say "Ha, in yo face!!" or "I was totally with you the whole time Tycho." Until then, Jar Jar is the real Boba Fett that's my Ep. 3 prediction.

Jedi_Master_Guyute
11-21-2004, 10:58 AM
Alright, enough with the attacks and comments back and forth. Once I get a hold of LM, he's editing these posts. So, please, knock off the attacks and comments. Stay on topic por favor. Thank you. :)

Bobby Fett
11-21-2004, 11:39 AM
As you wish.

2-1B
03-25-2007, 10:40 PM
Now that the EPISODE THREE Han Solo action figure is listed in the Revenge of the Sith products, you all will owe me some apologies.

I can't help it if I'm a genious.

Even if he made it into the final cut of the movie (or any draft leading up to it), he still wasn't going to be a Clone. :grin:


I'm waiting until Ep. 3 comes out so I can either say "Ha, in yo face!!" or "I was totally with you the whole time Tycho." Until then, Jar Jar is the real Boba Fett that's my Ep. 3 prediction.

Still waiting....?????????