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JediTricks
09-13-2004, 08:48 PM
As a kid, I can still remember waiting in the hot summer sun in line for ROTJ and coming out of the theater very excited, I also remember the Ewok-mania that some adults had concerning the Ewok toys. A lot of fans say that ROTJ is the weakest of the trilogy and I'd agree with that, but what specifically doesn't work about the film? What is wrong with it?

Kidhuman
09-13-2004, 09:11 PM
Except Josh Yowzer or what ever, nothing.

Bobby Fett
09-13-2004, 09:24 PM
In no particular order:

The destruction of the second Death Star was too much like the destruction of the first.

Ewoks.

The ease with which Vader killed the Emperor was too anti-climactic.

Ewoks.

The secret backdoor to the shield generator which everyone seemed to know about.

Ewoks.

The ease with which Boba Fett was dispatched.

Ewoks.

Devo
09-13-2004, 09:40 PM
Well firstly I'll say that I actually prefer Jedi to ANH. No doubt this is influenced by the fact that I saw jedi many times before I ever saw ANH. I believe if Jedi had come out first it would be held in more high regard certainly from the point of view of the battle sequences. But since it didn't come out first:

I suppose its biggest flaw is having another death star. The heroes facing exactly the same threat as they did in the first film.

The character interractions aren't as snappy as in the first two films. Han and Leia get along (perhaps a natural progression but one is allowed to prefer the time when they didn't). Likewise one may prefer ESB luke to ROTJ luke but these things are subjective.

Lando and Han get along fine despite the fact that Hans last memory of Lando before he was frozen was of his betrayal. Perhaps there should have been a scene of reconciliation between them. This doesn't really bother me but I thought I'd jot it down.

2-1B
09-14-2004, 12:20 AM
Just about everything in ROTJ works for me. The second Death Star is indeed a bit redundant but it's done well enough and improves over ANH successfully enough that I don't have a problem with it.

I don't hate the Ewoks as some people do, in fact I rather like them.

Boba Fett is a hack and I'm glad he goes early.

Lando and Han, yeah it seems all patched up but I figure the fact that Lando came after him must speak volumes to Han.

Okay, one thing that DOES NOT work for me in ROTJ is the Jabba dance sequence . . . if the original band segment was in place I'd be hard pressed to find anything that doesn't work in ROTJ.

In fact, I like ROTJ better than ANH and a bit less than ESB. :)

mrpauldeeds
09-14-2004, 01:26 AM
Why does everyone hate the ewoks??? Ive liked them since i was a kid, cute little fuzzys with spears, whats not to like:D

i do agree with the 2nd death star though, how its the same threat as in ANH.
and Bobby Fetts "back door" which everyone knew about is lame. But I think ROTJ was a good movie all in all.

Darth Rend
09-14-2004, 10:05 AM
First of, childish humor. I did not need burp jokes, nor do I need to hear Chewbacca do a Tarzan call.

But..the biggest problem for me was that the principal characters, with Luke as the exception, seemed to become caricatures of thier old selves. It almost feels like the actors had stopped taking the roles seriously. Or perhaps it was the directing, or the writing, I don't pretend to know, but something was definitly off.

The best example: HAN.

On the forest moon. Han is about to sneak up on the scout troper, and the others tell him to be carefull, Han says "Don't worry...it's ME!" (or "Hey...it's me" I forget which)...the response to this is Leia and Luke exchanging glances that seem to say "Oh, boy. that wacky Han. You just know he's gunna blow it." In that moment in the script, I feel Han's character is stripped of all credibility. He no longer feels like the dashing smuggler who blasts his way out of Storm-trooper filled docking bays. He's no longer the risk-taker who is is crazy enough to fly into an asteroid field, and actually pull it off. Now, he feels like a punch-line. "oh, that wacky Han."

I feel like there is one main element missing that made the character dynamic work in the previous 2 moives: tension. All of a sudden, EVERYONE are buddies and best pals. No smart-***** quipping, no playfull banter...none of that fun back and forth between Han and Leia. Everyone gets along TOO well. even Han and Lando. Does it occur to anyone that last last time Han saw Lando, he sold him to Vader? If I was Han, and I've just been thawed, and I see Lando hanging around Jabba's Palace, I wouldn't say "Hey great, he must be here to help." Han says it best: "I'm out of it for a little while and everyone's got delusions of graduer." Yes Han was out of it. Unfortunatly through Jedi, Han always feels a step behind everyone.

He kills Boba Fett in a goofy comedy moment. Yes, that is a terrible way to kill off Boba, but it's also a terrible way for Han to off his arch-rival. Han doesn't get to kill Jabba, he kills Fett by ACCIDENT, his credibility is shot by Luke and Leia, he messes up trying to sneak up on a scout trooper causing Luke and Leia to clean up after him in the speeder bike chase, he ends up being submissive to the ewoks, he MESSES UP hot-wiring the shield doors, he acts like a Jr High school student jealous of Luke and Leia talking, and whines more about the Falcon ("You,...you promise now, not a scratch??) ....He doesn't even get to fly HIS ship into the Death Star. The only thing of merit Han gets in Jedi is to plant the explosive charges AFTER the battle is won. He was even the last to know that Leia was Luke's sister. Han was reduced in Jedi to comedy relief.

I hate to say it, but if that was how they were going to treat the coolest character in the trilogy, I would've prefered he died in the carbon freezing, at least then he would've died a martyr.

Darth Rend
09-14-2004, 10:12 AM
Oh and for the record, I'd say Jedi is the weakest of the SAGA.

Rocketboy
09-14-2004, 11:22 AM
Darth Rend, I have no idea what movie you saw...
I'm not about to start an argument (I don't have the time today even if I did), but disagree with everything you said about Han in Jedi.

Darth Rend
09-14-2004, 11:51 AM
Darth Rend, I have no idea what movie you saw...
I'm not about to start an argument (I don't have the time today even if I did), but disagree with everything you said about Han in Jedi.
I don't argue. I engage in friendly debate. It's much nicer :D No need to be sarcastic....

I am curious what you don't agree with, however. That stuff did all happen right? The twig he steps on, the blast doors closing....What else did Han do that I missed? And what event did I recall that didn't happen? With the exception of stating an opinion that Han's roll was reduced to comedy relief, Everything I stated was pretty much fact.

LusiferSam
09-14-2004, 12:54 PM
It's funny that so many people dislike ROTJ. I've still can decide weather I like SW or ROTJ better. ESB has always been my lest favorite of the trilogy. But there are a few things the irks me about.
Like Darth Rend said I didn't need the Tarzan yell from Chewbacca. It just feels out of place.
And scene where Luke tells Leia Vader is their father is painful to watch. Carrie Fisher and Mark Hamill look old (no they look really old). The acting is just horrible. Nether performs the scene very well. The only one who is any good is Harrison Ford.

El Chuxter
09-14-2004, 01:28 PM
Has no one else ever noticed a parallel with Ewoks and the real world?

They speak a dead Earth language that sounds a lot like Vietnamese.

They were discounted by a technologically superior army.

An army which, using guerrilla tactics, they trounced.

Sound familiar?

vader121
09-14-2004, 02:52 PM
I have to agree with Darth Rend on the points he makes. Really does put some of that stuff into perspective. However, many of us need to see past all these things that may make the movie less satisfying. I myself think that ROTJ is the funnest to watch of the 3 movies (notice I say 3. The last 2 are crap comparatively speaking).

Some things I loved about ROTJ:
-Emperor's Arrival scene was way cool.
-whole Jabba sequence. Seeing the motley crew of aliens and other dastardly characters was cool
-ending space battle was awesome. That swarm of Tie Fighters engulfing the Falcon was impressive.
-lightsaber duel between Vader and Luke was very good.
-could be that I remember this one the most. I was 4 when ANH came out and then was 10 when ROTJ came out. Thus I enjoyed this one the most at the theater.

Some things that I didn't like about ROTJ:
-Ewoks. They didn't ruin the film but definitely gave it more of a kid-feel to it. But it is meant to be a kid movie so we need to deal with it.
-Boba Fett demise. Very bad. Nuff said.
-Luke going back to see Yoda dying. Just boring.

Just my 2 cents worth.:classic:

Droid
09-14-2004, 03:13 PM
Han did plenty in Jedi: He saved Lando. He led the strike team to the forest moon. He came up with the idea on how to get into the bunker once they failed to hotwire the doors. Without Han the shield never would have been down.

And he was no more regulated to comic relief than he had been in past movies. Han was funny in all of the movies. On the com with the Imperial in the cell block, shooting the walls in the trash compactor, "one thing's for sure, we're all gonna be a lot thinner", running around the corner into all of the Stormtroopers, almost every exchange with Leia in Empire was played for humor, he couldn't get his ship running in Empire. Han wasn't in the movies for comic relief, but he always provided humor. Harrison Ford likes to insert humor into action movies, see Indiana Jones.

I think the "Hey, it's me." and Luke and Leia's reaction touches on the fact that Han rarely did anything quietly or with finesse. He just blew Greedo away (originally). See Luke chewing Han out when they first got to the Death Star "bring it on, I'd prefer a straight fight to all this sneaking around. See Han chasing the Stormtroopers through the Death Star hallway. See Han blowing up the probe droid. See Han attacking the Star Destroyers head on. He usually wasn't one for being quiet and avoiding getting noticed.

Jedi was my favorite of the original trilogy. I don't think Jabba should have been on Tatooine (though that was set up in Empire). I don't think Boba Fett should have died the way he did. But it is my favorite of the original trilogy. I think it "works" as well as any of the saga.

Devo
09-14-2004, 09:16 PM
I thought Darth Rends's points were good (though it seems he failed to notice that I had made the point about everyone getting along, including Han and Lando, in my first post - not saying I'm the first to ever think of it but y'know). A lot of the comedy based around Han does poke fun at his expense. However I agree with Droid that the treatment of Han in Jedi was consistent with the first two films.

Just wondering though, had Boba Fett been elevated to godlike status by the time of his appearance in Jedi? If not then we should not be overly shocked at his pathetic demise. If, however, he was a cult figure before Jedi was made then shame on them for dispatching him in a manner that ominously prefigured 'Jar Jar and baby Anakin's happy accidents'. A proper Han versus Boba showdown should have been depicted as Darth Rend said.

JediTricks
09-14-2004, 09:18 PM
Has no one else ever noticed a parallel with Ewoks and the real world?

They speak a dead Earth language that sounds a lot like Vietnamese.

They were discounted by a technologically superior army.

An army which, using guerrilla tactics, they trounced.

Sound familiar?
Yeah, and don't forget how cute and cuddly those adorable Vietnamese are! Every child had a beloved teddy-vietnamese-person plush doll as a child. ;)

While reviewing the Saga Ultra Ewok Glider, I came to the conclusion that if they had toned down the cuter stuff during the battles especially, the Ewoks would have been a lot more palatable. However, they - like the Gungans - no matter how fierce their warriors get on-screen still suffer from Jar-Jar-syndrome, every member of their race is brought down in the audience's mind by the kiddified antics of Wicket. When you remove the focus on Wicket & Jar Jar, their respective movies get better and their races get less disrespect.

Turbowars
09-14-2004, 09:26 PM
ROTJ was perfect! Hey it was the only OT film I saw in the theater as a kid and loved it to death. Still, I don't see the problem with the Ewoks. I still get sad at the ending because that's it. No more SW's. :cry:

Bobby Fett
09-14-2004, 10:35 PM
... Still, I don't see the problem with the Ewoks. ...

Not to single out Turbowars, but let me explain my problem with Ewoks. Nearly everyone in the forum seems to have been in their teens or pre-teens when they first saw ROTJ. I was 29 when I first saw it.

If you had been 29 the first time you saw ROTJ would you still have thought the Ewoks were okay or geat? Probably not.

I'm sure when you're 29, your kids will love something that you don't like. It's life. lol

Turbowars
09-14-2004, 10:39 PM
Probably not. I'm 29 now, so you can see I was young. I still like them now. It's all about child hood memories. I loved be a kid. Ewoks rule!!;)

Bobby Fett
09-14-2004, 11:57 PM
Not to single out Turbowars, but let me explain my problem with Ewoks. Nearly everyone in the forum seems to have been in their teens or pre-teens when they first saw ROTJ. I was 29 when I first saw it.

If you had been 29 the first time you saw ROTJ would you still have thought the Ewoks were okay or geat? Probably not.

I'm sure when you're 29, your kids will love something that you don't like. It's life. lol

Oops! I had a little senior moment there. ;) I was 29 when ANH came out, 35 for ROTJ. But it's still just a matter of perspective. It mostly depends on your age when you first experienced the phenomenon of Star Wars.

LusiferSam
09-15-2004, 01:00 AM
Nearly everyone in the forum seems to have been in their teens or pre-teens when they first saw ROTJ.
Like hell I was. Like Turbowars I was a kid when I was saw ROTJ. As a kid I loved the Ewoks and loved how those stone aged midgets beat the high tech Empire. I'm in my 20's now and still like the Ewoks. I don't like everything about them or everything done with them, but to me they were one of the high lights of ROTJ.

Darth Rend
09-15-2004, 09:37 AM
Personally I don't mind the Ewoks that much, but i think the Endor Battle could have been set-up differently and pleased alot more people.


I think rather then the total and complete arse whooping the Ewoks laid unto the empire "best" soldiers. As it is in the film, the ewoks decimate the imperial Ranks, then after the battle is won Han Blows the charges and shuts down the shiel generator.

I personally think it would be far more dramatic, tense, and heroic if the Ewoks were CLEARLY at a disadvantage during the entire battle, surving through force of will, heart, and use of the jungle.

Ewoks bravely fighting, dying by the hundred, but fighting on bravely, struggling to keep the Imperials at bay JUST long enough for han to destroy the generator in spectacular fashion, saving the day.

If it went that way, then think about how it would work in context with the rest of the movie:

The Rebels discover the are trapped....Luke is being Tempted by the dark side...Han and company are captured....The Death Star OPENS FIRE on the rebels...my god, that thing's operational!!!...Luke cracks and attacks the Emporer, the duel begins....the rebels are being slaughtered in space...the Ewoks are hardly able to hold the Imperial lines, taking heavy loses....Vader destroys the catwalk Luke is on, he falls....the Rebels in space can't take much more...Luke almost Succums to temptation.." So be it, JEDI. The Space battle is lost, Luke is in trouble the ewoks are losing.....

BANG! Han get the shield charges off. The ewoks gave him enough time!

At this point, the ENTIRE momentum shifts...and the Rebels take the upper hand.

"The shields down! Comence atttack on the death Star!" Vader overthrows the emperor, and The imperial forces on Endor, realizing the objective has been lost, starts to fall back, ewoks in hot pursuit!

stillakid
09-15-2004, 11:22 AM
Perhaps my biggest problem with ROTJ is that half the screentime is taken in the "rescue Han" sequence. While the entire rest of the original trilogy is about the greater galactic struggle, ROTJ takes up nearly 1/6 of that time in an extended bid to get a secondary character back into the story. Now granted, it's on Tatooine that we kind of are supposed to see how much Luke has progressed and we get to see just how much Leia really loves Han, but the character positives we get from that 60 minutes are outweighed by the sheer amount of time it takes to get there. Some may argue that this Jabba sequence is giving us the flavor of the rest of the universe we're in and they'd be right. But I'd counter and suggest that this is material that is better suited for Expanded Universe and shouldn't be taking time away from the primary idea of the saga. Han needed to be rescued for sure, but it should have been done in 20 minutes or less, not in 60. I would have preferred to see more of the politics of the Rebel Alliance leading up to the climactic confrontation that consumes the second half of ROTJ. What we really have is two movies, not unlike STRIPES.

After that, any complaints I might come up with are mainly cosmetic or "nitpicking" :rolleyes: ;) . It bothered me that Luke pushes bad guys off the Barge with his lightsaber instead of cutting them in half.

Boba was set up to be a "bad arse" bounty hunter, but his departure was not only "comedic" but came off as a "how do we kill him off quickly?" kind of moment. His demise didn't fit what the assumed personae established.

The Spirit Ben sequence is okay and necessary, but it always bothers me a little when the story just stops so that the characters can sit and spit out exposition to the audience. I always prefer to have necessary information come out during actual story events, so to have an omniscient ghost appear and just flat out tell us everything we (and Luke) need to know is kind of the cheap and easy way out. Yeah yeah, I know that it's one of those "mythical" storytelling conventions, but I never liked it there either. :D

While I liked the Ewoks and everything, the entire tone of ROTJ does come off as "cartoony" unlike the rather "epic" ANH and the "seriousness" of ESB. I don't know if this is indicative of movies in general or just Star Wars, but it is always preferable for a series of films in the same "story" to maintain a continuity both of story and of "feel." The Star Wars saga is kind of all over the map on both counts at this point.

El Chuxter
09-15-2004, 12:05 PM
Yeah, and don't forget how cute and cuddly those adorable Vietnamese are!

Hey! My wife's Vietnamese! Are you implying she's not cute and cuddly? :mad::D

Kidhuman
09-15-2004, 06:58 PM
The Spirit Ben sequence is okay and necessary, but it always bothers me a little when the story just stops so that the characters can sit and spit out exposition to the audience. I always prefer to have necessary information come out during actual story events, so to have an omniscient ghost appear and just flat out tell us everything we (and Luke) need to know is kind of the cheap and easy way out. Yeah yeah, I know that it's one of those "mythical" storytelling conventions, but I never liked it there either. :D


They had to have Sir Alec Guiness in the movie. Ben was the only one that could have explained the whole story to Luke. While it was nec. I do see your point. BUt it could have only been told through Ben and no one else IMO.


Bobby Fett, you old. :D.

I was about 11 when ROTJ came out. I loved the Ewoks, and still do. I am now 31(two older than Turbo) and would still love them. I do see JT's point of Jar Jar and Wicket, but you have to admit, Wicket is not even on the same field, in the same ballpark as JJB. I wouldnt mind seeing the Ewoks go to war with the Gungans. That would be pretty sweet.

El Chuxter
09-15-2004, 07:03 PM
The Ewoks would mop the forest floor with those silly Gungans.

They even celebrate better. They lift their weapons (and trophies collected from Imperials) high and cheer, then go back to the village for some wine, women, and song. The Gungans just babble incoherently and start slapping Battle Droids like a bunch of buffoons.

Bobby Fett
09-15-2004, 09:09 PM
Bobby Fett, you old. :D.

Yeah, and what about it, you young :beard: whipper-snapper?

Kidhuman
09-15-2004, 10:23 PM
Remeber Bobby, uyou can spell :beard: without BEAR, and they like to poop!!!! :D


~~~~~~~~~ <-------------little bear cub droppings

Rocketboy
09-15-2004, 11:17 PM
I don't argue. I engage in friendly debate. It's much nicer :D No need to be sarcastic....

I am curious what you don't agree with, however. That stuff did all happen right? The twig he steps on, the blast doors closing....What else did Han do that I missed? And what event did I recall that didn't happen? With the exception of stating an opinion that Han's roll was reduced to comedy relief, Everything I stated was pretty much fact.All righty then...

The Biker Scout/twig snap - That is classic Han Solo style luck. Bad things seem to happen to Han when it should be easy. Examples: Greedo & Jabba confront Han just as he arranges to get Jabba's money; The "easy charter" runs him into the Death Star; Getting away from Stormtroopers and falling into a trash compacter; Finding a great hiding spot from the Empire then realizing "this is no cave;" Finding refuge with an old friend only to be sold out; And finding love then being frozen in carbonite.

No more tension - Well, they are friends and have been through quite a bit together. Dire circumastances can bring people closer together. Han could've had a new outlook on life after his near death experience in Carbonite. And I always assumed Chewie told Han that Lando was there (han couldn't exactly see Lando) and explained that he was on their side.

Boba's death - A fitting death for, who at the time, was a minor character. The movies never established that Solo and Fett were arch rivals. That story came later in the EU I believe. And Han was busy saving Lando (and his own ***) to bother with Jabba who was on another craft.

Ewok submission? - They took his blaster and if had started blasting away, he'd have been speared to death in seconds.

The Shield doors - see the Han Solo bad luck

Lando destroying the Death Star - Han was kind of busy volunteering to blow up the Bunker. And Lando wasn't planning on flying the Falcon at first.


I would've prefered he died in the carbon freezing, at least then he would've died a martyr.If that had happened, it would have killed the entire movie, and I'm sure people would be complaining about it, saying it was a bigger mistake than Greedo shooting first.

Darth Rend
09-16-2004, 09:12 AM
I just think Han was played for laughs. Sure he's always been a funny character, and yes his trademark "bad luck" is a great source of that..I just feel he didn't come off as competant as he did in the previous movies.

Characters as dynamic as Han tend to "write themselves." Meaning, the personality is so well defined, that all you have to do is drop him into a scene, and it will become immediatly apparent what that character would say or do, or what kind of comments or wise cracks they would make. In Jedi, it feels (to me at least) that Almost like someone said "Hey, Han is a funny character, what kind of funny stuff can we have happen with him?" Rather than simply let funny situations come out naturally.

A great example of this is the scene in the ewok village, when Han is telling threepio to ask the ewoks all these questions, and keeps interupting him before he can say anything..and the last time he interupts him he says "and hurry up, will you, I haven't got all day!"

YES you could argue that Han is a jerk twards droids, and YES it was kinda funny, but it was such a blatant "insert funny skit here" moment. Han is a reactive character, his humor works best when he's reacting to situations. Not when a situation has been staged soley for him to make a joke.

As far as tension between the characters go, there can ALWAYS be tension. Especially with a wise-arse like Han. I always thought the relationships, espcially Han and Leia's, peaked too early. I would've perfered them not fully getting together untill near the end of Jedi. Instead, they are already a couple at the very begining. Still thats a hard thing to do without disturbing the events in Empire....

Devo
09-16-2004, 10:28 AM
Characters as dynamic as Han tend to "write themselves." Meaning, the personality is so well defined, that all you have to do is drop him into a scene, and it will become immediatly apparent what that character would say or do, or what kind of comments or wise cracks they would make. In Jedi, it feels (to me at least) that Almost like someone said "Hey, Han is a funny character, what kind of funny stuff can we have happen with him?" Rather than simply let funny situations come out naturally.

I understand what you're getting at. Although that kind of policy was apparently used by Jonathan Mostow when he directed T3 in the hopes that Arnie's one liners would reveal themselves naturally rather than seem staged. Unfortunately that didn't really come to pass. I for one can't remember any 'iconic' lines spoken by Arnie in T3. So its an admirable way to approach scripting, storyboarding etc but it doesn't always work and might not necessarily have worked in Jedi.

Bobby Fett
09-16-2004, 05:11 PM
Remember Bobby, you can't spell :beard: without BEAR, and they like to poop!!!! :D


~~~~~~~~~ <-------------little bear cub droppings


Bear poop does not concern me Commander :beard: . I have added to my already impressive Mandalorian armor the ultimate in bear poop repulsor units: an umbrella and hip waders!

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-16-2004, 05:28 PM
I understand what you're getting at. Although that kind of policy was apparently used by Jonathan Mostow when he directed T3 in the hopes that Arnie's one liners would reveal themselves naturally rather than seem staged. Unfortunately that didn't really come to pass. I for one can't remember any 'iconic' lines spoken by Arnie in T3. So its an admirable way to approach scripting, storyboarding etc but it doesn't always work and might not necessarily have worked in Jedi.
How can you forget "Talk to the hand?" :D

I think ROTJ's a great movie. When I was younger, it was my favorite; now I don't really know which of the OT is my favorite, it still might be Jedi though.

I can somewhat see what people are saying about Han. He is played for laughs, but it's not always necessarily a bad thing. I think maybe the less-than-perfect performance might have something to do with the fact that Harrison thought Han should've been killed in the carbonite, which really would've added some depth to the film.

I like the Ewoks. I never had a problem with them, and I still don't. Well actually, the only thing I don't like about them is their song in the original version. But, that's gone now so it's all good. :D

The scenes in the Emperor's throne room are some of the best in the whole Saga. Ian McDiarmid is just so damn creepy, and almost all of the dialogue is so cool. Several lines give me chills:
Luke: "I am a Jedi, like my father before me."
Palpatine: "So be it. Jedi."
Also, the music is really great. The Emperor's theme is almost as scary as the Imperial March (but not quite!).

I also love the Jabba's Palace/Sail Barge scenes. All of the aliens are cool, so are the fights. I kind of had a problem with the rancor's matte lines, but those are gone now too.