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rbaumhauer
09-18-2004, 10:02 AM
From the latest Entertainment Weekly:

GL: If you really look at it, there's hardly any changes at all. The thing that really caused the trouble on "Star Wars" (notice he doesn't call it "A New Hope"?) is the whole question of whether Han Solo or Greedo shoots first. The way it got cobbled together at the time, it came off that [Han] fired first. He didn't fire first.

EW: So you consider this a correction?

GL: It's a correction. [When I made "Star Wars"] I said,"Well, I don't have that shot, so I'll just, you know, fudge it editorially." In my mind [Greedo] shot first or at the same time. We like to think of [Han Solo] as a murderer because that's hip - I don't think that's a good thing for people.

Seriously, is he even aware of how silly this sounds? Did we all think it was "hip" to think Han was a "murderer"? From the dialog in the scene, it was OBVIOUS that Greedo intended to kill Han - it was never any worse than self-defense.

Lucas creates a "Western in Space", where people carry sidearms as a matter of course, then 20 years down the line convinces himself that having a classic "gunman" character use his sidearm in self-defense makes him a cold-blooded murderer. THEN, another 6-7 years down the line, he convinces himself that it was never supposed to be that way in the first place - he just "fudged it editorially".

stillakid
09-18-2004, 10:13 AM
I'm reminded of the line by Dennis Hopper in SPEED when he tells Keanu, "No, poor people are crazy...I'm eccentric." :crazed:

Look, he effed up. He knows it. And instead of admitting that, it's easier to reimagine his intentions and live off the worship of those that defend him at every turn.

At this point, I'm like, "whatever" :ermm: . Long ago, he inspired a lot of young kids to get into the movie business and slowly "we" are making our way through the system. His time has passed and new sources of inspiration will arrive for all of us to look up to. Star Wars jumped the shark long ago and now we're in the 6th season of the series when it should have ended when Luke went off to college before Cousin Oliver showed up. ROTS will have its version of Scrappy Doo (Grevious) and officially call it a day. The cast will come out for a final curtain call, champaigne will be poured and they'll all collect their royalties for years to come. Life will go on, but with the knowledge that Greedo never fired first.

Kidhuman
09-18-2004, 10:26 PM
Life will go on, but with the knowledge that Greedo never fired first.


I think I will put that on my gravestone.


HEre lies KH. In passing he wanted us to know that Greedo never fired first.


I will leave my bootlegs ot the SMithsonian for proof.

2-1B
09-19-2004, 12:43 AM
Well said, Rbaum. :)
However, you're a little mistaken because George is actually somewhat correct because there are people who think Han shot Greedo in cold blood.

It was indeed self defense for Han to kill Greedo, even if Han did shoot first.

And that is why I disagree with other people around here (stillakid :D ) who say silly things about the SE change actually changing Han's character arc.
Look, it already was self defense for Han to shoot Greedo before the green fella ever squeezed off a shot. Greedo had a gun in Han's face and as far as I'm concerned, Han was totally justified in blowing the guy away.

Don't get me wrong, I really hate the whole Greedo-Firing-First thing and I think it was unneccessary - but NOT because of any (false) change in Han's character. I despise it just because of how crappy it looks on screen.

If GL had the proper footage to realize this ultimate vision for the scene, I would have NO problem with Greedo firing first. But he doesn't have the right footage and it looked like crap. So I stand opposed. :D

B'Omarr Monkey
09-19-2004, 01:20 AM
GL's explanation is lame. For one thing, this is hardly the same thing as a shoddy matte painting, or not having the budget to pay for stop motion. If he wanted to have Greedo shoot first all along, he could have easily done that.

For another thing, looking at the script again, which GL is supposed to have written, there is no indication that Greedo fired first. The description is as follows:

HAN: Yes, I'll bet you have.

Suddenly the slimy alien disappears in a blinding flash of light. Han pulls his smoking gun from beneath the table as the other patrons look on in bemused amazement. Han gets up and starts out of the cantina, flipping the bartender some coins as he leaves

HAN: Sorry about the mess.

Third. Watching it from the first time I saw it back in 1977, and all through those intervening years until the SE came along, I was always under the impression that Greedo was about to blast Han, but that Han was quicker on the draw. This of course, indicated by the dialogue exchange prior to the blasting.

Fourth, if Han is supposed to be so sympathetic and a new age kind of man like Lucas is retroactively making him, what's with the flippant line "Sorry about the mess." Come on, Han was essentially a drug smuggler. I don't think the spices he was smuggling included cumin or paprika. He was only in it for the money. He was a lowlife scumbag who fell into the same criminal underground populated by the likes of Jabba, Boba Fett, and Lando. These were not nice guys. they were all looking out for themselves.

In my new edition of ANH, Greedo shoots the director.

stillakid
09-19-2004, 10:34 AM
Well said, Rbaum. :)
However, you're a little mistaken because George is actually somewhat correct because there are people who think Han shot Greedo in cold blood.

It was indeed self defense for Han to kill Greedo, even if Han did shoot first.

And that is why I disagree with other people around here (stillakid :D ) who say silly things about the SE change actually changing Han's character arc.
Look, it already was self defense for Han to shoot Greedo before the green fella ever squeezed off a shot. Greedo had a gun in Han's face and as far as I'm concerned, Han was totally justified in blowing the guy away.

Don't get me wrong, I really hate the whole Greedo-Firing-First thing and I think it was unneccessary - but NOT because of any (false) change in Han's character. I despise it just because of how crappy it looks on screen.

If GL had the proper footage to realize this ultimate vision for the scene, I would have NO problem with Greedo firing first. But he doesn't have the right footage and it looked like crap. So I stand opposed. :D
Yeah, what B'Monk said. ;)

But, Caesar, I think that we're closer on this than you (would like to) think. With either version, Han is shooting (essentially) in self-defense. Here you've got a bounty hunter with a gun pointed at his chest for a couple of minutes...Han knew what could happen which is why he played it cool and secretly pulled his own weapon just in case it was needed. Then, as B'Monk points out, the "discussion" pretty much came to a head and Greedo's intentions were all but clear. He was going to take Solo in dead or alive. I think that argument for "in cold blood" can be made either way, but having Han shoot second does change Solo's arc no matter what. Instead of being a guy who takes control of a situation for his own good, he now is a guy who is willing to take it first (because he's essentially a good golly good guy) and then if he's still alive, he'll punish the perp. This is hardly a rough and ready independent smuggler type in need of some character development. If he starts out as a swell guy, then where is there to go and what is left for him to learn throughout the rest of the story? The old version left room for Han to grow as a person. The new version has him being the same guy at point A as at point B. Yawwwwnn. :zzz:

2-1B
09-19-2004, 11:36 AM
But, Caesar, I think that we're closer on this than you (would like to) think.

I think you are right about that. :Ogre:


With either version, Han is shooting (essentially) in self-defense.

Well, since we agree on that, then I have to be open to debating the "story arc" argument on a separate plane . . . I'll have to think some more about that. :)

Darth Rend
09-19-2004, 01:01 PM
Come on, Han was essentially a drug smuggler. I don't think the spices he was smuggling included cumin or paprika. He was only in it for the money. .
Actually, I'm thinking spice was never intended to be a drug. Thats something we can thank the EU for. I mean, why would Owen tell Luke that his father was a navigator on a SPICE frieghter? That would raise alot more questions Owen couldn't anser. Think about it...

"Hey Uncle owen? I was talking to an old guy named Ben at Anchorhead, he mentioned my Dad! He said he fought in the Clone Wars!"

" What? NO, your dad wasn't a soldier...he, was....uh...a DRUG DEALLER. Yeah. He ran the navigation system for sleazy low-life criminals. Now shut up and drink your blue milk."

I was always under the impression Han smuggled spice to avoid hefty and unfair imperial taxes and tarrifs for people who wanted to illegal save some bucks on thier businesses.

scruffziller
09-19-2004, 01:39 PM
How could we ever think that Han would be a cold blooded murder? He had a blaster pointed in his face?:rolleyes: Silly Georgie Boy, original release bootlegs are for fans.:p

B'Omarr Monkey
09-19-2004, 10:07 PM
Actually, I'm thinking spice was never intended to be a drug. Thats something we can thank the EU for. I mean, why would Owen tell Luke that his father was a navigator on a SPICE frieghter? That would raise alot more questions Owen couldn't anser. Think about it...

"Hey Uncle owen? I was talking to an old guy named Ben at Anchorhead, he mentioned my Dad! He said he fought in the Clone Wars!"

" What? NO, your dad wasn't a soldier...he, was....uh...a DRUG DEALLER. Yeah. He ran the navigation system for sleazy low-life criminals. Now shut up and drink your blue milk."

I was always under the impression Han smuggled spice to avoid hefty and unfair imperial taxes and tarrifs for people who wanted to illegal save some bucks on thier businesses.


I'm sure the spice was just one of the many things that GL lifted from "Dune." You're right about the spice frieghter reference. maybe it is like people who run cigarettes without the tax stamp on them. Whatever the case, he was a smuggler. He was stealing from somebody, knowingly. He also was working for an organized crimelord.

None of this is to say that I dislike han. I've always preferred him to Luke, or any of the other principal characters for that matter. To use a modern movie analogy, he's like a better groomed and more sober Jack Sparrow of "Pirates of the Caribbean." He's a likeable guy who looks out for number one, but is a big softy at heart. He's still a pirate. Who knows what he did while he was an active pirate. I doubt he'd wait for anyone else to shoot first either.

JediTricks
09-19-2004, 10:20 PM
Geez, Lucas might as well have Greedo suddenly die of space-cancer or get killed with a walkie-talkie.

I honestly believe that Greedo was never intending to shoot Han in the bar, I always figured he was going to march Han over to Jabba to collect a "live" bounty (which may or may not pay better, but WILL get Greedo some major props) and let Jabba take his 10 grand out of Solo's hide any way he saw fit, which may not have even been murder, could have just been indentured servitude or taking the Falcon. Hell, when Lucas added the Jabba scene back into ANH, he supports this "Han might not really have been in THAT much danger" theory, Jabba's still fairly friendly with Han, lets him keep the Falcon, and even gives Solo an extension during a conversation where Han is fairly mouthy towards the gangster. Han gives Jabba a little grief in this scene right in front of some of the boys and Jabba laughs it off.

I suspect Lucas is just rewriting history again to cover up more mistakes, some versions of the ANH script actually have Han saying he thought Greedo was going to make a move but Han never felt really in danger while others just have Han getting an obsticle out of the way. My suspicion is that Lucas changed the Greedo scene because he didn't like the way the pyrotechnic-filled Greedo-stand-in looked right before it got shot (it looks pretty weak but is only in the shot for a half-second).

tagmac
09-19-2004, 10:56 PM
As much as the original dummy/explosion was a bit confusing when i was a kid, and looked weak when viewed on pause, it still worked better on the whole. Personally, I always thought Lucas changed the scene because he caved in to pressure from the PC morons, even "catering" to parent groups who complained about the Ninja Turtles using weapons (so that they didn't in the lousy sequel) and about Batman Returns being "too scary" (I guess none of those parents bothered to look at the PG-13 rating).

Sounds like George is standing by this new stance so as not to anger that crowd. If he suddenly says he always meant for Han to shoot first, he's "admitting" that the "good guy" is really a "cold-blooded killer," and we just can't have that in this world full of "impressionable" (aka, unsupervised) children.

I know i'm reaching here, but it just seems interesting that the first time the whole idea of changing this scene around just happened to occur during the height of political correctness in the 90's.

2-1B
09-20-2004, 04:05 AM
Geez, Lucas might as well have Greedo suddenly die of space-cancer or get killed with a walkie-talkie.

Good call, Spielberg can provide the walkie-talkie. :crazed:

JT, I have to disagree and say that I thought Greedo was there to smoke the Corellian.

Sure, he tells Han to "tell Jabba. he might just take your ship."

but when Han replies "over my dead body", Greedo says "that's the idea and that [he's] been looking forward to this for a long time."

Greedo had already drawn down on Han and figured he had him cornered - of course, he made the mistake of ignoring that right hand. :Ogre:

As far as Greedo bringing Han alive to Jabba, I don't see the value in that. Greedo would likely make more waves by killing Han and then collecting the bounty. A confirmed kill like that is more newsworthy than a live Han.

Now, let's compare Greedo to Jabba and why Jabba is so chummy with Han. Well, Jabba still stands to profit from Han on future runs because, well, Han's good ! :) Jabba has to flex some muscle, sure, because he can't lose face but at the same time, he's not going to waste a valuable asset like Han. Not until he goes missing for a long time after the ANH meeting. :D

Jabba is a gangster and I'm inclined to draw a reference to The Sopranos. In season 3 and 4, we see a real jerk in Ralphie Cifaretto, a guy nobody likes, even the bosses. But he's a good earner so they put up with some troubles because the bottom line is met.

Greedo said that Jabba "might just take [Han's] ship" - again, Jabba would likely have to charge some kind of tax but he would be foolish to kill Han so early. Jabba's a businessman !

As for Greedo, he has no vested interest in keeping Han alive.

Darth Rend
09-20-2004, 09:37 AM
...when Lucas added the Jabba scene back into ANH, he supports this "Han might not really have been in THAT much danger" theory, Jabba's still fairly friendly with Han, lets him keep the Falcon, and even gives Solo an extension during a conversation where Han is fairly mouthy towards the gangster. Han gives Jabba a little grief in this scene right in front of some of the boys and Jabba laughs it off.

Actually, this might be right on the money. In the Han shoots first version, we are led to believe that is Han is taken to Jabba, then he's a dead man. We get the impression this is a viscious gangster who will kill Han in a slow painful way because he cost him money. This is carried through return of the Jedi.

However, with the Jabba scene back into ANH, this changes the dynamic. Now, we see that Jabba probably wouldn't have sadistically killed him. At this stage Jabba still sees Han as valuable, and if Greedo brought Han in alive, they likely would've had basically the same conversation. In this light, it seems alot less like Han was blasting Greedo in self defense.

Although, truth be told, I do much prefer the Han shoots first scenario,...but if it means keeping the Jabba scene, I'll live with it.

Kidhuman
09-20-2004, 09:42 AM
However, with the Jabba scene back into ANH, this changes the dynamic. Now, we see that Jabba probably wouldn't have sadistically killed him.

And there is the whole character arc thing again.

JediTricks
09-20-2004, 09:06 PM
Good call, Spielberg can provide the walkie-talkie. :crazed: That, my friend, is precisely what I was alluding to. :D



Sure, he tells Han to "tell Jabba. he might just take your ship."

but when Han replies "over my dead body", Greedo says "that's the idea and that [he's] been looking forward to this for a long time." But we don't KNOW what Greedo was going to do, you COULD interpret this as Greedo planning to blast Han right there (even though it's incredibly unlikely that Greedo would be as bold as Han to do it in public like that) but you could ALSO interpret it that Greedo is going to hold his gun on Han and march him over to Jabba whom he assumes may very well kill Solo when he gets there, and cannot wait to watch Han get his comeuppance at Jabba's hand. We can interpret it either way, I was stating in the previous post how it's always seemed to me. Greedo seemed like he'd take Han to Jabba to get the street cred that comes with bringing a bounty in alive, and watch Jabba give Han the ol' "what did the five fingers say to the face?" routine. (a little Chappelle for ya's :D)


As far as Greedo bringing Han alive to Jabba, I don't see the value in that. Greedo would likely make more waves by killing Han and then collecting the bounty. A confirmed kill like that is more newsworthy than a live Han. To quote a more successful bounty hunter concerning Han Solo, "he's no good to me dead". I had forgotten about that line as it applies to this discussion until just now, but it has direct application to this situation because Boba Fett makes it abundantly clear that if Han is dead, he cannot collect his bounty.


Now, let's compare Greedo to Jabba and why Jabba is so chummy with Han. Well, Jabba still stands to profit from Han on future runs because, well, Han's good ! :) Jabba has to flex some muscle, sure, because he can't lose face but at the same time, he's not going to waste a valuable asset like Han. Not until he goes missing for a long time after the ANH meeting. :D First, I will point out that if you take this reasoning at face value (which is not entirely out of the realm of possibility, though Greedo made Jabba seem pretty steamed at Han and yet he's the guy's best buddy when they meet up a few minutes later), then that would support more reasoning as to why Greedo wasn't going to kill Han.

Second, Jabba loses face in front of his men real bad in that scene, Han walks all over the Hutt gangster, both figuratively and now literally.


As for Greedo, he has no vested interest in keeping Han alive. Except that he doesn't want to cheese off his boss whom you just pointed out wants Han to keep earning for him AND that Jabba apparently will only pay that bounty on a LIVING Han Solo according to ESB.


Rend, that makes sense to me, and it's not only a characterization change for Jabba and for Han as a killer, but also another level of change for Han because the original version had Han as the smuggler willing to take this mission in the face of the grave threats presented by Jabba's ire, yet the SE change of course minimizes that sense of danger which Han is now facing.

B'Omarr Monkey
09-21-2004, 01:22 AM
Greedo needing street cred is based on the wussy biography he was given in the "Tales From Mos Eisley Cantina" book, the same one that had Greedo blended into a drink. I always thought Greedo was pretty cool, and probably pretty experienced as hired muscle. He certainly doesn't talk like some nervous amateur, with his pistol quivering because he's nervous.

As for the goofy blast dummy in the scene. Someone at hasbro must have liked it. That seems to be what they modeled the Commtech Greedo on.

The most incriminating piece of dialogue which disproves GL's claims that he always meant for Greedo to shoot first is this one:

Jabba: ...why did you have to fry poor Greedo like that?

Jabba clearly knows what happened, so if Greedo fired first, why does he need to ask? Was he expecting han to dive across the table and wrestle the gun from Greedo's hand as he's blasting away at him? No, it's because han blasted Greedo before the Rodian had a chance to do anything.

And with that I say, touché, Mr. Lucas.

tagmac
09-21-2004, 05:18 PM
I didn't think it was possible, but after watching it, the new DVD change is actually worse than the previous version.

JON9000
09-22-2004, 01:03 AM
I didn't think it was possible, but after watching it, the new DVD change is actually worse than the previous version.

I think the new version looks a little more natural and therefore better, although I would still prefer the OT version.

AmanaMatt
09-22-2004, 03:56 AM
I still prefer the OTC Greedo scene but the new Dvd tweaking is 'decent' and is a helluva lot better looking than the 1997 version.

El Chuxter
09-22-2004, 01:03 PM
I think Lucas got it right, and Han looks much more natural. That is, of course, assuming that he has the ability to, once in his life, teleport almost a foot to his right to avoid getting shot and not even bat an eyelash!

Most of the changes were actually for the better this time, I think, but this one still is clunky. Though slightly better, I guess.

Beast
09-22-2004, 01:12 PM
He doesn't exactly teleport. :p There's a pretty natural shift of his entire body in the scene. Instead of just his head, which was done in the SE version. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

JediTricks
09-22-2004, 03:32 PM
Greedo needing street cred is based on the wussy biography he was given in the "Tales From Mos Eisley Cantina" bookIt is? I had no idea, I've never read 'em, it was just my guesstimation. But there isn't a bounty hunter alive who doesn't want street cred. :D

Nobody gonna touch on my comment that Greedo wouldn't have killed Han because Boba said he couldn't have gotten the bounty if Han were dead?

rbaumhauer
09-22-2004, 08:12 PM
Personally, I always believed that it was Greedo's intention to march Solo out of the cantina and kill him somewhere else, then deliver the body to Jabba.

JT, it's entirely possible that Jabba changed the terms of the bounty when Han didn't come through with the money after their "conversation" in the docking bay in Mos Eisley.

2-1B
09-23-2004, 12:25 AM
But we don't KNOW what Greedo was going to do, you COULD interpret this as Greedo planning to blast Han right there (even though it's incredibly unlikely that Greedo would be as bold as Han to do it in public like that) but you could ALSO interpret it that Greedo is going to hold his gun on Han and march him over to Jabba whom he assumes may very well kill Solo when he gets there, and cannot wait to watch Han get his comeuppance at Jabba's hand. We can interpret it either way, I was stating in the previous post how it's always seemed to me. Greedo seemed like he'd take Han to Jabba to get the street cred that comes with bringing a bounty in alive, and watch Jabba give Han the ol' "what did the five fingers say to the face?" routine. (a little Chappelle for ya's :D)

Oh, definitely, I can see both interpretations.


To quote a more successful bounty hunter concerning Han Solo, "he's no good to me dead". I had forgotten about that line as it applies to this discussion until just now, but it has direct application to this situation because Boba Fett makes it abundantly clear that if Han is dead, he cannot collect his bounty.

Yeah, the thought crossed my mind as I watched ESB last night. :D I thought about it and I guess I'm with Rbaum in thinking that the terms of the bounty could have changed after Jabba was blown off again. In fact, Jabba tells Han in the Docking Bay that he'll put a bounty on him . . . blah blah . . . so it's possible that a new and revised bounty was issued.


First, I will point out that if you take this reasoning at face value (which is not entirely out of the realm of possibility, though Greedo made Jabba seem pretty steamed at Han and yet he's the guy's best buddy when they meet up a few minutes later), then that would support more reasoning as to why Greedo wasn't going to kill Han.

Second, Jabba loses face in front of his men real bad in that scene, Han walks all over the Hutt gangster, both figuratively and now literally.

True, but it's not like Bib Fortuna was there to see it. :p


Except that he doesn't want to cheese off his boss whom you just pointed out wants Han to keep earning for him AND that Jabba apparently will only pay that bounty on a LIVING Han Solo according to ESB.

Yeah, I was thinking about that, too. If Greedo were to kill Han, he would have to fudge the events to Jabba, hopefully to make it seem as if Greedo had no choice but to take Solo down.

2-1B
09-23-2004, 12:30 AM
The most incriminating piece of dialogue which disproves GL's claims that he always meant for Greedo to shoot first is this one:

Jabba: ...why did you have to fry poor Greedo like that?

Jabba clearly knows what happened, so if Greedo fired first, why does he need to ask? Was he expecting han to dive across the table and wrestle the gun from Greedo's hand as he's blasting away at him? No, it's because han blasted Greedo before the Rodian had a chance to do anything.

And with that I say, touché, Mr. Lucas.

Good point,
but then again Jabba himself wasn't there to see it firsthand. I'm sure the only news to come out of the cantina was that Han "fried poor Greedo."

Hell, after watching the DVD I was actually impressed by this scene. Ohhhh, I still much prefer Han Shoots First but after the horrible job of re-doing this for the 97 SE, I gotta say this was 100 times better and at least it is now watchable.

You know, the whole thing happens so fast now that I'll just pretend Han DID smoke Greedo and Greedo's shot was just a reaction, too little too late.

Yeah, that's the ticket ! :crazed:

Exhaust Port
09-23-2004, 12:32 AM
Looking through the production stills provided on the OT DVD there is one shot of the Solo/Greedo scene with the caption "Han Solo prepares to shoot first." Take a look, it's in there.

B'Omarr Monkey
09-23-2004, 12:44 AM
I Haven't watched the ANH DVD yet. Hard to believe, I know. But, from what I'm reading here, they actually changed it so Han ducks out of the way. What?!! Was he chanelling the hyperdrive from the Falcon? How does he dodge a laser bolt, which should be travelling at the speed of light (though of course lasers in SW move much slower than bullets). That seems a little goofy to me.

Frankly, I always wondered how Greedo missed in the first place. He was sitting two feet away and had his blaster pointing right at him.

I think if GL wanted to maintain Greedo shooting first, he could have stuch with the SE footage and simply looped in Greedo saying "Oops" when his gun goes off. Greedo shoots first, and Han still blasts him for the heck of it. It's the best of both worlds. :D

JediTricks
09-24-2004, 10:27 PM
JT, it's entirely possible that Jabba changed the terms of the bounty when Han didn't come through with the money after their "conversation" in the docking bay in Mos Eisley.Yeah, but there's absolutely no onscreen evidence to suggest this is the case. It wouldn't hold up in court, assume facts not in evidence and then support them by assuming MORE facts no in evidence that can only exist by the support of those first not-in-evidence "facts" - a circular argument. ;) That goes for you too Caesar! :D




Second, Jabba loses face in front of his men real bad in that scene, Han walks all over the Hutt gangster, both figuratively and now literally. True, but it's not like Bib Fortuna was there to see it. :p Word gets around fast with these types, one mug tells a couple of buddies, they tell a few guys what they heard, eventually Jabba looks like a total chump in front of his mobster underlings which ultimately puts him and his whole organization at risk.


B'Omarr, blaster bolts in SW aren't lasers, I believe they're photon-encased hyper-charged gasses, which explains why they act the way they do and aren't fast as light.

B'Omarr Monkey
09-25-2004, 12:36 AM
I thought that photon meant light, ergo light speed. At anyrate, they should move faster than bullets, which he still couldn't have dodged at that range. :p

JediTricks
09-27-2004, 09:41 PM
Light is made up of photons, that is true, but photons can be found in other forms of electromagnetic radiation as well and therefore theoretically could move slower than light.

In the films, blaster bolts - whether from pistols or starships - while very fast, never seem to go as fast as real-world bullets.

Exhaust Port
09-27-2004, 10:39 PM
Light is made up of photons, that is true, but photons can be found in other forms of electromagnetic radiation as well and therefore theoretically could move slower than light.

Incorrect. Light is just the visible part of the electromagnetic spectrum, not a different "form" of EM radiation. Visible light is no different in properties than gamma rays, radio waves, etc. It all moves at the speed of light.



light is part of what is called the electromagnetic spectrum, which includes infrared radiation, radio waves, gamma rays, X-rays, ultraviolet radiation, and so on. All of these are a form of light; they just have energies that differ from the visible light that our eyes can see. Thus, these forms of electromagnetic radiation all travel at the speed of light too.

JediTricks
09-27-2004, 10:52 PM
Oh, let's all go quoting then! Here's the first part of what the encyclopedia has to say:


photon, the particle composing light and other forms of electromagnetic radiation

And since a recent experiment showed laser emissions could be slowed to sub-light speeds under certain conditions, it is theoretically POSSIBLE that a SW blaster could be doing the same thing.

Exhaust Port
09-27-2004, 11:30 PM
I don't understand the point of your encyclopedia quote. Yes, a photon is a particle composed of EM radiation, and?...... What does that have to do with the speed of a photon? You're missing the point of my quote, EM radiation ALL travels at the speed of light.

If you care to read and expand your knowledge start here:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/light1.htm

Or for something a bit more indepth try this:

http://www.astro.uu.nl/~strous/AA/en/antwoorden/licht.html

What you are referring to is the recent Bose-Einstein Condensate (BEC) experiments but I still don't think you've grasped its implications. I know this is another quote but I'm sure you'll live. :rolleyes:


What is actually slowed down is the group velocity, i.e., the velocity of propagation of a light pulse, a wave packet consisting of many different frequencies. Information is transmitted with this group velocity. In vaccuum the speed of light is approximately 300 000 km/s, that's the limiting speed. Nothing can go faster than that. However in a medium light travels at a slower speed, this is described by the refractive index. The refractive index depends on the frequency (colour) of the light wave. If you consider a light pulse consisting of waves with different frequencies, these waves will travel at different speeds in the medium and will be bent differently. The colours will be seperated. That's what we observe when we look at a rainbow or the light passing through a prisma.

The scientists at Rowland use a technique called "electromagnetically induced transparency", where they have coupled extremely cooled sodium atoms to an external laser field. The sodium atoms are at a temperature of about 4.10^-7 K (about -273 centigrade). These atoms are in a very peculiar state of matter, called Bose-Einstein condensate. Somehow all the atoms together form one collective quantum mechanical state. The laser pulse coupled to the condensate makes the otherwise opaque medium transparent for a narrow band of frequencies. The refractive index is rapidly varying with the frequency (of light) in this range. And this very rapid variation is the reason for the incredibly low speed of light propagation. The single frequencies do still move at a very high speed (phase velocity), but the group velocity which depends on the rate of variation of the refractive index is incredibly low, a few centimetres per second! This velocity depends on the temperature of the condensate. The lower the temperature the slower light propagation. However, light propagation cannot be halted, the speed of light in the medium cannot be reduced to 0, since the temperature of the condensate would have to reach the absolute zero point, which is not possible.

If you are implying that such shifts in energy would permit such slow "laser bolts" to exist you are mistaken. Now if you would drop the temperature of the building in which the laser battle would take place down to near 0 Kelvin perhaps you might see something different as matter and light shifted properties (but not what you're implying).

B'Omarr Monkey
09-28-2004, 12:04 AM
Geez. Look at all the trouble I started. :rolleyes:

Thanks for backing me up Exhaust Port.

As you can see, not only has GL's alteration made most of us unhappy, but he's also made it so han could theoretically beat the Millennium Falcon in a foot race. :p

stillakid
09-28-2004, 01:37 AM
Funny and interesting conversation. The argument for Han being able to successfully dodge this "bullet" is that these "photons" are moving slower than 186,000 miles per second? How much slower? Like 150,000 mps? :rolleyes: Yeah, he could dodge that one I guess. :rolleyes:

This reminds me of my "are Bikerscouts Force users?" thread in which the argument against was that speederbikes weren't really moving at 200+ mph but rather somewhere in the high 100s. Seriously, at some point, while the numbers game might be true, the end result is the same. No human could possibly avoid getting struck by anything "photon" based when it is shot at him from 3 feet away even if it is "slowed down" by some miracle. I also recall a similar "laugh it off" conversation I once had with one of the ST Voyager directors about how Picard was able to sidestep one of those photon blasts. At the end of the day, it's just a sci-fi convention so that we are able to see the danger heading for the victim, whether it is fired from a gun barrel or a spaceship. That being the case (that it is both slow and visible), writers sometimes take the liberty of having their character avoid said danger merely because the convention allows it. It's all just silly fiction. :crazed:

Exhaust Port
09-28-2004, 02:11 AM
Are you implying that certain aspects of sci-fi TV shows and movies aren't possible?!?!? Say it isn't so!

I've also heard that they've developed a way for sound to be heard in space which justifies GL allowing for what we heard in the OT and PT. Thank goodness, I wasn't sleeping knowing that such a incorrect feature was included in the movies.

B'Omarr Monkey
09-28-2004, 02:39 PM
Speaking of dodging light speed (or near light speed energy projections) one of my favorite examples of this is the X-Men character Cyclops, who can project energy beams out of his eyes. What I've always wondered is how he misses. Have you ever tried to look at something and miss? Assuming it's possible, why doesn't he just turn his head with his eyes open? I'd imagine that would take care of the problem pretty quickly. :rolleyes:

El Chuxter
09-28-2004, 05:45 PM
Speaking of dodging light speed (or near light speed energy projections) one of my favorite examples of this is the X-Men character Cyclops, who can project energy beams out of his eyes. What I've always wondered is how he misses. Have you ever tried to look at something and miss? Assuming it's possible, why doesn't he just turn his head with his eyes open? I'd imagine that would take care of the problem pretty quickly. :rolleyes:

Because 1) Cyclops doesn't shoot beams of light, but beams of force (not Force) that resemble light when seen and travel roughly the speed of a bullet, 2) he would have to see something in exactly one point of his wide field of vision to hit it accurately, and 3) although 99% of the time it's not apparent, Cyclops has to manually open a slit in his ruby-quartz visors by either pushing a button on the side of his visor (earlier issues) or by squeezing a trigger in his glove (later issues).

Why do I feel like Gondor, King of Geeks right now? :beard:

Exhaust Port
09-28-2004, 09:05 PM
Why do I feel like Gondor, King of Geeks right now? :beard:

I'll give you a 7.5 on the geek scale for that. :)

JediTricks
09-29-2004, 10:57 PM
I don't understand the point of your encyclopedia quote. Here's what my post was in response to:



Light is made up of photons, that is true, but photons can be found in other forms of electromagnetic radiation as well and therefore theoretically could move slower than light.
Incorrect. Light is just the visible part of the electromagnetic spectrum, not a different "form" of EM radiation.... So I responsed with that encyclopedia quote which defined a photon as "the particle composing light and other forms of electromagnetic radiation".

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-30-2004, 05:00 PM
While we're on the subject of Greedo, why does he blow up anyway? Shouldn't he just get hit and fall over? Or does Han's blaster have some magical blowing-up powers? Or is Greedo like a Skakoan that blows up, but when shot and not just exposed to air?

tagmac
09-30-2004, 06:14 PM
He doesn't actually explode...if you watch, Greedo falls forward right after being shot.

JediTricks
09-30-2004, 10:33 PM
I think the close-range of the weapon, the lack of body armor, and the 3 metric tons of TNT under the dummy's lap are the reasons for the original explosion. ;)

Kyle Katarn
10-01-2004, 12:14 PM
I dont know but for some reason the fight and death of Greedo are simply great in the DVD.

Mad Slanted Powers
10-01-2004, 10:34 PM
I didn't have as much of a problem with the Greedo shooting first thing. You could tell Han was getting ready to shoot and the two shots were so close together that Han may have already decided to shoot. The only problem I have is how did Greedo miss such a close shot?

Kidhuman
10-01-2004, 10:39 PM
The only problem I have is how did Greedo miss such a close shot?


He was trained by stormtroopers

Exhaust Port
10-01-2004, 10:55 PM
So I responsed with that encyclopedia quote which defined a photon as "the particle composing light and other forms of electromagnetic radiation".

You seem to be misinterpreting the definition. This was your original statement:


Light is made up of photons, that is true, but photons can be found in other forms of electromagnetic radiation as well and therefore theoretically could move slower than light.

There is a wide range of EM and light is only one small part of that spectrum, the visible part. That doesn't mean that the EM at one spectrum is faster or slower than those at the other end, they're all the same form of energy. The difference is the frequency/wave of that energy. We can see a shift in that energy like the Red Shift seen with our expanding universe but that doesn't change the nature of the energy, it's still moving along at the speed of light.

There are many "forms" of EM but they all comprise the full EM spectrum. There are X-Rays, visible light, Gamma Rays, etc. So a photon is particle of EM but it can be comprised of energy from any part of that EM spectrum. Such variations in the EM energy won't alter the speed of said particle only change its characteristics. We all know getting shot with a beam of white light is a bit different than getting shot with a beam of X-rays. Same particle, different characteristics.

JediTricks
10-03-2004, 06:21 PM
Ah, gotcha. That was a mistake on my part, I actually removed a chunk of that comment because I wanted it to read clearer, and I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention to what I had left. Look at my later comment about slowing "laser emissions", what emissions might those be referring to? Light.