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View Full Version : ESB Vest theories have now been debunked!



JediTricks
09-19-2004, 10:42 PM
To quote Darth Vader, "yippee!" ;)

Watching VH1's "When Star Wars Ruled the World" yesterday, about 37 minutes into the special they're talking about Han and ESB and Bespin and carbon freeze and the love dialogue, and they show a behind-the-scenes clip of the camera getting ready to shoot Harrison Ford in close-up. I believe what they were doing on the stage was checking the field of focus to ensure the camera was the right distance to the actor. Anyway they had the measuring tape (rope actually IIRC) out and the camera was rolling and there were super-bright lights on Ford in his white Han Solo shirt as he's shooting close-up shots for his about-to-be-frozen scene, the bright lights showed the white shirt brilliantly reflecting their strong light I think to make sure the camera was able to fully see the measuring rope. Then, when they got the measurement, the bright camera lights were shut down revealing only the scene lights. That was the important part, here's why...

When the bright camera lights were shutting down, Han's shirt faded from bright white to pitch black, exactly the way the supposed "vest" had looked right down to the still-white collar, visually proving in full, uncut motion of this behind-the-scenes shot that it was the atmospheric lighting of the scene which gave the shirt its black appearance similar to Han's ANH vest.


JJB, as someone like myself who has been promoting this theory all along, did you notice this shot in the When SW Ruled special? And did you feel as vindicated as I? :D

Beast
09-19-2004, 10:52 PM
Crap, I missed this. But I'm glad that we were right about the whole vest thing. Seriously, as many mistakes end up in movies, this one made no sense at all. The vest wasn't even on set for filming, so I doubt such a massive mistake as him wearing it in one shot, and then not in another, was even possible. Now if we could prove to everyone about Han Hoth's coat color, we'd be batting a thousand. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!
Jar Jar Binks

tagmac
09-19-2004, 10:53 PM
I think he beat you to it.

http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=25220

JediTricks
09-19-2004, 11:07 PM
JJB, I can't believe you missed it dude! It was most beautiful, you HAVE to catch it when it re-airs a hundred thousand times this next week. ;) It's actually a pretty interesting special, while some of it is rehashed tales from the Empire of Dreams doc, the interviews here are all new and there's a different spin to things and they use footage not in the EoD doc. The way VH1 shot these interview things was weird though, camera right up close on the interviewees, many of which with a monochrome background, brings out the worst in Hamill & Ford's noses (how did the left side of Harrison's nose get so flattened?).



I think he beat you to it.

http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=25220
Tagmac, I'm not sure what you mean, true JJB mentioned that the comingsoon review made the mistake of identifying the vest, but he didn't mention this concrete proof (mainly because it hadn't aired yet).


I have to admit, I got a little giddy about this when I first realized we had real proof about the vest (which JJB is absolutely correct in that it was never used on the film and would make no sense to just suddenly appear in the wardrobe that day).


Oh, and as for the Han Hoth coat, I don't know if we'll ever really be able to prove its true color, but in that same VH1 special, they show Kersh wearing a blue park almost exactly the same color as the prototype shown in the Steve Sansweet book while standing next to Han in the Hoth coat and they look NOTHING like each other in terms of color. I'm no longer totally 100% sure the coat actually was brown on the set, but I'd believe it was faded black (like Han's Bespin coat which also looks a little blue) and the snow and lighting made it show brown on the film before I'll believe it really was blue. :D

Kidhuman
09-19-2004, 11:28 PM
I just set my DVR to record this tomorrow

JediTricks
09-20-2004, 07:46 PM
Is there a way someone could use their DVR to take screencaps frame by frame of this shot and post 'em here? A full-motion video would be better, but probably too much to ask.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-22-2004, 05:35 PM
Well actually, you're wrong. In the new Insider, it says in the Star Wars Q&A section with Pablo Hidalgo that in some shots, he did have the vest. There's some book where Harrison Ford says something to Irvin Kershner like "They gave me the wrong shirt, it's the one without sleeves." It then says that for some reason a vest was delivered to the set instead of the jacket he was supposed to be wearing. In some shots ("I know") you could see it, and in others it made you think "Oh wait no, it's just shadows." For some reason the shots with him wearing the vest were put in with the ones where he doesn't have it, and they kind of fudged it over. However, for the DVD they did in fact remove the vest, it says so in the magazine.

derek
09-22-2004, 06:44 PM
i've always heard that han was wearing the wrong shirt in ROTJ, but it seems to me the wrong shirt was the sculpture of the carbon freeze block. that shirt looks to be the wrong version, kinda like the ANH version. :confused: anyone else notice this?

Kidhuman
09-23-2004, 06:10 AM
Is there a way someone could use their DVR to take screencaps frame by frame of this shot and post 'em here? A full-motion video would be better, but probably too much to ask.


There is a way, but I dont have my TV hooked up ot a computer. If someone did, they could play it on there and record it. to the comp and take the screencaps.

ALl in all it was an interesting show.

Also on Saturday at 1pm EST, A and E is showing Empire of dreams, and Saturday night, CN is running the 20 eps of SW cartoons.

JediTricks
09-24-2004, 09:35 PM
JabbaJohn, nothing personal, but I don't believe what you're quoting over my own eyes, especially with no specific source on that supposed Harrison Ford quote that would be thirdhand hearsay unless the author was right there when it happened and the Insider possibly going on secondhand information based on THAT, plus in the clip I'm citing they're setting up to shoot that very "I know" close-up shot which if you've seen it disproves exactly what you're saying. Did you watch the show, did you see the clip?


Derek, the shirt in ESB is different from the one in ROTJ, but I've never noticed that the shirt or shirts differed from the one sculpted into the carbonite block (well, "blocks" really since ROTJ had them starting over from scratch).


KH, if you ever get your TV and computer hooked up like that, you gotta get those screencaps in here. It's so frustrating knowing it's really out there, especially when there are people who think otherwise. Did you see what I'm talking about, roughly 37 minutes into the special?

I also found it to be an interesting special, I especially liked that the majority of the interviews felt a little less polished and more honest than the EoD ones.

Kidhuman
09-25-2004, 08:44 AM
KH, if you ever get your TV and computer hooked up like that, you gotta get those screencaps in here. It's so frustrating knowing it's really out there, especially when there are people who think otherwise. Did you see what I'm talking about, roughly 37 minutes into the special?


I saw what you were talking about. If you know someone who has there TV run through their comp, I can tape it and send it to you.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-25-2004, 10:31 AM
JT, yes I saw the special. I noticed how his shoulders did in fact look shadowed, but they're still not shadowed enough to look like they did in the film.

On some other special/TV show (I can't remember for the life of me what it was - probably on DVD), it shows the real, widescreen, 1980 version of the "I know" shot. Now there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he actually did wear the vest in some shots. You can see that his arms are white, but where the vest would be is black. You can see the vest a little bit raised off his shoulders too. Has anyone watched all the featurettes on the DVD? It's probably the characters one but I don't remember. Since it's on the DVD (at least I think it is) it's still pretty clear.

It even says in the Insider that his vest was removed for the DVD movie. It then goes on to talk about the bridge scene being corrected. Sorry for not quoting it exactly, but if you look at the Insider you'll know that I'm right. :D

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-26-2004, 02:03 PM
Have you guys seen the ESB DVD? They clearly changed the "I know" shot, and now he's not wearing his vest. It's now white and very wrinkly. The quality of the VHS was bad, but not enough to the point of mixing up white and black. It's a definite digital change, which means that yes he was wearing his vest in the original version.

It still looks like he's wearing it when he says "What's goin' on . . . buddy?"

JediTricks
09-27-2004, 08:50 PM
I saw what you were talking about. If you know someone who has there TV run through their comp, I can tape it and send it to you.
I only wish I did.


John, the sides of the arms would be white without the vest, they are being hit by the ambient light off to the sides just like the collar. The scene in the special shows conclusively in the very shot you were talking about the shirt going from bright white to pitch black only in the "vest" areas.

As for the Insider, I stopped getting it long ago, and I wouldn't trust them on this no matter what they say because they could be assuming it's a vest or talking about the "vest effect" and cleaning up the shadowing on the shirt.

derek
10-01-2004, 09:45 PM
Derek, the shirt in ESB is different from the one in ROTJ, but I've never noticed that the shirt or shirts differed from the one sculpted into the carbonite block (well, "blocks" really since ROTJ had them starting over from scratch).

how are the shirts different? they look the same to me.
:confused:

what i noticed is the shirt that the prop has on in the carbon block looks like it was from ANH.

are you saying the carbon block in jedi wasn't the one used in ESB?

both these shirts look the same to me......it just looks like the one in ROTJ is buttoned higher?

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-02-2004, 11:59 AM
I think the ROTJ one has buttons but the ESB one doesn't.

Kidhuman
10-02-2004, 08:53 PM
I think the shirt froze together and thats why it looks different

JediTricks
10-03-2004, 05:56 PM
how are the shirts different? they look the same to me.
:confused: The ESB shirt has a single seam at the top while the ROTJ one has 2, the ESB one has a strange seam down either side of the front of the shirt while the ROTJ one doesn't (it has a different kind of panel thing going), the ESB one doesn'tfasten together as high as the ROTJ one does, and the lapels are larger on the ESB shirt.


what i noticed is the shirt that the prop has on in the carbon block looks like it was from ANH. Yeah, it looks open in the middle.


are you saying the carbon block in jedi wasn't the one used in ESB?That is what I have read, though I don't remember where. There are actually several different carbonite blocks, including one made with Han in sleepy face rather than painful face, and the ROTJ scene also required 4 new versions of the head element for the melting process, but that was a close-up.




BTW, what about the scene where Han says to Lando "What's going on... BUDDY?", this is another scene where when we cut to the close-up of Han & Lando it appears as if Harrison is wearing the vest, does anybody think they went out and had Harrison change costumes for the close-up?

plasticfetish
10-09-2004, 03:09 AM
OK. Here's for fun.

Image number one is grabbed from the '95 VHS version, and image number two is from the new DVDs.

I'd say it's just shadows, but they did obviously brighten his shirt for the DVDs. BTW -- Insider quotes "Once Upon a Galaxy: A Journal of the Making of The Empire Strikes Back."

Slicker
10-10-2004, 03:18 PM
Just read the new insider and they have a sidebar question about this and according to the article the vest was indeed worn in some of the shots.