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Slicker
09-22-2004, 01:42 PM
Watching Jedi yesterday I came to the realization that no matter how much bit**ing I do Haydakin is always gonna be in there (unless I watch the SE) but what must Luke think about him. Luke is probably wondering what this punk ***** kid in Jedi robes is doing at his dead Jedi party. As far as I know Luke has never seen young Anakin so he can only assume that is what he looked like and hope that it was him. I think the ghost should have been of what Luke remembered them as after all they are the figments of his imagination.

Beast
09-22-2004, 01:51 PM
How stupid do you seriously think Luke is? That he can't figure out that the third ghost that manifests is his father. Luke only saw his bald mutilated father without his mask for a few moments, so it's not like he knew what his father would have looked like before he manifested as a ghost in the original version either. And why should the ghost manifest as Luke remembered him, if he would have he'd have been bald and horribly scarred. One would think that the ghost would manifest as they last remember themselves. And I don't get why you seem to think they are figments of Luke's imagination? :confused:

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

JEDIpartner
09-22-2004, 02:56 PM
That's as silly to me as when people gripe about the new communication with the Emperor in ESB. A few people have said "Oh, no! It clues everyone in that Vader is Luke's father!!!" I watched it yesterday and there is no way. The Emperor refers to Luke as the offspring of Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader asks how that it possible. Granted, anyone who has watched the previous 4 films would already know that Vader is Luke's father by this point, but those who haven't still wouldn't have a clue. Vader almost acknowledges it as if he is talking about the son of the man he killed. *shrug*

Anyhow... whatever.

JediTricks
09-22-2004, 03:49 PM
I'm with Slicker, I've been saying for weeks that there's no cinematic reason that Luke should know who this 3rd spirit is. What if it had been Qui-Gon rather than Hayden? Would Luke still have assumed it was his father? The spirit has always manifested itself as its final point in life, Anakin was still the good man inside the suit according to both Luke and Vader's dialogue in the film as well as Vader's final actions, therefore Shaw was the logical choice as the spirit because he WAS the last living iteration of Anakin Skywalker.

Slicker
09-22-2004, 05:36 PM
Thank you Mr. Tricks for agreeing with me on this one. I can see where JJB and JP are coming from that it's only logical that it could be Anakin's ghost but it still should have been Sebastiakin's ghost because the way that I've always seen it is that when Vader throws the Emperor over into the chasm he is throwing away the last vestiges of the Dark Side in him and therefore becoming the good guy Anakin Skywalker reverting once again to the Light Side.

In case your wondering I didn't think that Hayden being in the movie was that bad.

derek
09-22-2004, 07:48 PM
so the real solution would be to digitally insert hayden into the "vader unmasked" scene and then have some make up on the ghost of hayden to make him look 45 years old? :confused:

that's what i would of done!

down with sebastian shaw!!! :evil:

Lord Malakite
09-22-2004, 07:52 PM
I'm with Slicker, I've been saying for weeks that there's no cinematic reason that Luke should know who this 3rd spirit is.

One word. Intuition. Luke could sense it through the force like Leia could sense Luke was her long lost brother or Vader could sense Obi was alive and on the Death Star. Each individual has there own distinct aura on the force, like a spiritual version of a finger print if you will. At least that is how I take it. ;)

2-1B
09-22-2004, 11:53 PM
No, Luke was wondering "hey, my mom was a total hottie MILF and my dad was a pretty cute guy, so why am I so fugly?" ;)

For the record, I'm with JJB and JP. Had the OT marks 1 and 2 shown a bald and hacked up ghost, then I would be opposed to any change but since 'Bas got all 'humpty dumptied' (thanks JJB :D ) in the Force, then I'm all for going back and showing the younger Ani.

And also for the record :crazed: , as a kid I thought the 'Bas ghost was what Ani looked like before he went into the suit, sure I was probably an idiot, but yeah . . . that's what I thought. :crazed:

plasticfetish
09-23-2004, 04:41 AM
OK. So I think I see now what the argument is FOR Hayden being in this shot. Anakin never really looked like the happy old man at any point, so it's most logical -- if you're going to show him "normal" -- as the last form that he held before he became twisted and deformed.

Am I pretty close with that?

How stupid do you seriously think Luke is? That he can't figure out that the third ghost that manifests is his father.Just the same, I've gotta say, I think it's really a huge leap to assume that Luke would recognize the young Anakin. That sounds less like critical thinking, and more like wishful thinking.

Maybe I'd personally object to the edit less if it did tie into the ROTJ story a little better. Perhaps some kind of Hayden reveal earlier on in the movie to tie things together a little better. I dunno.

Oh... and for the record Caesar, I'd assume that Lucas wanted you to think that at the time. Until he **cough, cough** recently realized that he wanted something different all along.

Kidhuman
09-23-2004, 10:22 AM
I am with JT and Slicker.(suprised?) Even if the ghosts manifests back to the point of "last known goodness", I would be thinking "My dad is the same age as me. WTF is up with that? He must be a strong force user." I say down with Hayden.

JediTricks
09-24-2004, 10:42 PM
One word. Intuition. Luke could sense it through the force like Leia could sense Luke was her long lost brother or Vader could sense Obi was alive and on the Death Star. Each individual has there own distinct aura on the force, like a spiritual version of a finger print if you will. At least that is how I take it. ;)
Convenient, no? Sure, maybe Luke could not only see but FEEL them there, but as he is the audience's conduit to these spirits, it has to be explained through the cinematic medium and therefore there's no evidence shown for the Luke character to recognize this guy since he doesn't say anything at all and doesn't react differently when Anakin fades in.


And I'll say it again, what if it had been spirit of Qui-Gon instead of Anakin there, what would Luke have thought? Would it had led him to erroneously believe it was his daddy as Anakin appeared 25 years ago?

2-1B
09-25-2004, 12:34 AM
I love the idea of Luke knowing it's his old man by "feeling" his presence. Sorry but in that case, Qui-Gon has nothing to do with it . . . we know Luke can feel Vader on that ship so after he burns pappa's carcass and sees a young ghost appear next to the only other 2 Jedi he knew, well I'm sure he could feel that it was Vader / Ani.

Sorry for not complimenting you on that before, Malakite, because it is a nice idea. :)

Lord Malakite
09-25-2004, 10:48 PM
Convenient, no? Sure, maybe Luke could not only see but FEEL them there, but as he is the audience's conduit to these spirits, it has to be explained through the cinematic medium and therefore there's no evidence shown for the Luke character to recognize this guy since he doesn't say anything at all and doesn't react differently when Anakin fades in.
It is explained through the cinematic medium JT. There are plenty of examples to support that Luke (and other force users) could feel the distinct presence of selected individuals through the force, some of which I mentioned earlier. From those instances it should be safe for an audience to infer that its no different with Luke and the spirits. We have to assume of course that the audience has enough common sense and intelligence that they can make such connections from the previous references, which I believe is what Lucas does think. I think Luke's reaction was very natural to the spirits at the end of ROTJ. Why would he act any differently to his mentors and father in death than in life, especially since this was not his first encounter to spirits, so there was nothing to be suprised about? And to have Luke have come out and directly say something along the lines of "so thats what dad looked like before he turn evil" would not only ruin the overall feel of the ending in my opinion, it would probably also belittle the audience's intelligence at the same time.


And I'll say it again, what if it had been spirit of Qui-Gon instead of Anakin there, what would Luke have thought? Would it had led him to erroneously believe it was his daddy as Anakin appeared 25 years ago?
Obviously not. If Qui-Gon had appeared instead of Anakin, Luke would have no doubt been confused. Each person has a unique signature on the force, like a finger print is unique to a person JT. If it wasn't unique Vader wouldn't have been able to pin down that Obi was on board the Death Star from the 1000s of officers/troopers and the other crew of the Falcon. Same as Luke could detect Vader on the Star Destoyer among all the troops or Vader simultaniously could tell Luke was on the shuttle from the other rebels. Same is true with Leia knowing where Luke would be exactly at Cloud City, or even that Luke was her brother just from what she felt from birth about him.

By the way, thanks for the compliment Caesar. :)

Rocketboy
09-26-2004, 12:06 AM
I kinda disagree with most opinions.
I think it was just a common sense and a process of elimination.

"Yoda & Ben! Hey, who's that new guy? Oooh, I'll bet I can figure it out. Let's go over the list of Jedi I've met: Yoda, Obi-wan, the Emperor and Vader (AKA daddy). That's Yoda and Ben and they're both good guys, and they appear to be welcoming the new guy, and dad was good again when he died...so that new guy must be dad."

JON9000
09-26-2004, 10:21 PM
How stupid do you seriously think Luke is?
Luke to 3po: "How could I have been so stupid?"

;)

JediTricks
09-27-2004, 10:01 PM
There are plenty of examples to support that Luke (and other force users) could feel the distinct presence of selected individuals through the force, some of which I mentioned earlier. Most of those examples had Luke and others SAYING something or reacting in an unusual way, but Luke doesn't change his demeanour here. So when you say "From those instances it should be safe for an audience to infer that its no different with Luke and the spirits" I don't think it's an accurate or "safe" claim to make because the cinematic circumstances given to the audience aren't the same.


We have to assume of course that the audience has enough common sense and intelligence that they can make such connections from the previous references, which I believe is what Lucas does think. Except nobody ANYWHERE has seen Episode III yet, so until next May, how are people who aren't fairly familiar with the SW universe and this look of Hayden's going to connect the dots? You have to assume that the audience CAN make this leap of logic because the character does, but the same would hold true if it were Liam Neeson up there as Qui-Gon if they hadn't seen Ep 1, "who is this guy? Well, I guess he must be Anakin."


And to have Luke have come out and directly say something along the lines of "so thats what dad looked like before he turn evil" would not only ruin the overall feel of the ending in my opinion, it would probably also belittle the audience's intelligence at the same time. I'm not suggesting anything of the sort, I felt the evidence WAS there when it was the same actor who appeared a few minutes before under the Darth Vader mask, but that key piece of evidence for Luke and the audience to draw from has now been actively erased. It is Lucas who changed the film 25 years after the fact to fit his new prequels, the film worked as it was.


Obviously not. If Qui-Gon had appeared instead of Anakin, Luke would have no doubt been confused. Because he could "feel" him, but the character of Luke as a conduit for the audience means that he has to display this some way now because it's no longer from within the context, so now it's just some guy he's never seen before. Luke felt Dagobah was familiar, what if he had felt that Qui-Gon was familiar because of his affect on his father and mentor? We don't know, so we can only go by cinematic evidence and unless specifically written differently, so only can Luke.

Lord Malakite
09-27-2004, 11:58 PM
Most of those examples had Luke and others SAYING something or reacting in an unusual way, but Luke doesn't change his demeanour here. So when you say "From those instances it should be safe for an audience to infer that its no different with Luke and the spirits" I don't think it's an accurate or "safe" claim to make because the cinematic circumstances given to the audience aren't the same.

I felt that all the previous examples already brought the point across with their reactions that it wasn't really needed at the end by having Luke change his demeanour. Circumstance wise there wasn't much difference from what I could tell other than the fact there was no other character to interact and convey what he was seeing and feeling without making the scene appear odd.


Except nobody ANYWHERE has seen Episode III yet, so until next May, how are people who aren't fairly familiar with the SW universe and this look of Hayden's going to connect the dots? You have to assume that the audience CAN make this leap of logic because the character does, but the same would hold true if it were Liam Neeson up there as Qui-Gon if they hadn't seen Ep 1, "who is this guy? Well, I guess he must be Anakin."

I don't think seeing Episode III is necessarily important to connect the dots JT. We have Episode II which establishes Hayden as Anakin. As for the Qui-Gon comment see below.


I felt the evidence WAS there when it was the same actor who appeared a few minutes before under the Darth Vader mask, but that key piece of evidence for Luke and the audience to draw from has now been actively erased. It is Lucas who changed the film 25 years after the fact to fit his new prequels, the film worked as it was.

I'll agree with you partially on this one. The evidence is still there. The only thing is it is no longer contained within a stand alone movie like before. You actually have to watch the other movies to draw the conclusion. Same with the Qui-Gon thing. You have to had seen Episode I to know he is Qui-Gon. I don't think you have to be entirely familiar with the SW universe to understand the basic idea, just as long as you watch all the chapters. Like reading a book, you wouldn't expect a person to get a sense of the whole story from just one chapter.


Because he could "feel" him, but the character of Luke as a conduit for the audience means that he has to display this some way now because it's no longer from within the context, so now it's just some guy he's never seen before. Luke felt Dagobah was familiar, what if he had felt that Qui-Gon was familiar because of his affect on his father and mentor? We don't know, so we can only go by cinematic evidence and unless specifically written differently, so only can Luke.

Unfortunately there is no way to confirm or deny this at this time. Hopefully Episode III will clear up how Dagobah felt familiar to Luke. I suspect that its probably some direct connection though, like actually being on Dagobah after being born, and not indirect like your example of Qui-Gon's influence on Anakin and Obi.

stillakid
09-28-2004, 01:41 AM
The "he felt him" argument is a cop-out, in my opinion. Practically any incongruity could potentially be explained away with that one. When does the madness stop? :crazed:

Lord Malakite
09-28-2004, 02:02 AM
The "he felt him" argument is a cop-out, in my opinion.
Sooner or later I knew you'd get in on this stilla. ;) If you wouldn't mind playing devil's advocate for just a second, I'd like you to come up with a better idea that you wouldn't consider a "cop-out." Consider it a challenge. :)

2-1B
09-28-2004, 03:48 AM
sorry JT, but if on one hand the audience can recognize a smiley guy with full hair as the same crusty old burnout in the Vader suit minutes before . . . then the same audience can recognize Young Anakin with a wig. No viewing of ROTS is necessary to get it. :D

stillakid
09-28-2004, 09:13 AM
Sooner or later I knew you'd get in on this stilla. ;) If you wouldn't mind playing devil's advocate for just a second, I'd like you to come up with a better idea that you wouldn't consider a "cop-out." Consider it a challenge. :)

YEAH, that is a big challenge. ;) One without any winners unfortunately. :(

Well, to be honest, my conjecture is that Lucas just plopped Hayd-akin in there as a blunt and very unsubtle device to "tie the trilogies together." Lacking any sense of how to accomplish that goal via good writing, he figured that just blatantly shoehorning in a few Prequel images into the OT here and there should be enough to placate the masses who aren't really paying attention.

Storywise, that's something different. I don't know, I suppose we could sit here all day and dream up a million different excus...rationali...um, reasons why Luke might actually be able to know that Rapist-Leering Hayd-akin with Kung Fu Grip is supposed to be his father. I suppose that if we really wanted to make a stretch, the most plausible explanation might be as simple as guilt by association. Luke just so happened to know just 3 Jedi in his short life and just so happened to be around when each of those 3 died. 2 of them vanished into thin air at the moment of death (when they were old). The other one did not vanish when he was old. So when Luke does see 3 ghosts, by using his powers of deduction he could guess that the third Rapist Leering punk kid on the left is maybe possibly his father at a younger age. It still makes no true sense, but that's probably the closest reasonable rationale we have to go on.

I don't know, anybody else have any ideas? :ermm:

El Chuxter
09-28-2004, 01:07 PM
Funny thing is, when I watched the movies this weekend, I believe four people said in unison, "Who's this punk kid!"

Okay, it was more along the lines of, "Who's that supposed to be?" But you get the idea.

Slicker
09-28-2004, 05:06 PM
I suppose this whole argument really depends on the common sense of the viewer of the movies. But say you get a younger kid who has watched all 6 movies when they come out and watches the natural progression of Anakin from young boy, to the very well described by stilla rapist leering teen, to Darth Vader, then the pasty white guy they may wonder why he would show up as a rapist leering teen again at the end of Jedi. We all know that's his former self that he's only forgotten but the "not-so-smart" viewers among us may wonder who the pasty white man in the suit is and why he's impersonating Vader. If Lucas wanted to do it right by trying to tie the prequels in he should have just put old man make-up on Hayd-akin and had him replace Shaw completely.

stillakid
09-28-2004, 10:10 PM
If Lucas wanted to do it right by trying to tie the prequels in he should have just put old man make-up on Hayd-akin and had him replace Shaw completely.

As much as it hurts to admit it, you're right about that. Replacing Sebastian entirely is really the way to go if Lucas wishes to play this game. This relates entirely to the issue of how well (or not well, more specifically) the actor Hayden can possibly transition into the character of Darth Vader. He even needed platform boots because he's too short for the role. Not to mention the tonal differences in voice as well as speech style. Not one thing about Hayd-akin even remotely resembles, or could resemble, the Vader we all know and love. So when we get to the unmasking scene and we get a virtual stranger who looks nothing like Hayden...the first reaction for a 1-6 viewer will be to wonder who the hell this old fart is. That reaction will be justified when just a few minutes later, Hayd-akin fades in. And the initial argument still holds at that point that Luke will have no way in Hades to know who this "punk kid" is. The audience will know, but Luke won't. Not really. The guy he met in Empire and then saw in ROTJ doesn't resemble Hayd-akin in any way shape or form. Nadda. Zip. It's all just so disappointing. :(

Rocketboy
09-28-2004, 10:56 PM
So when we get to the unmasking scene and we get a virtual stranger who looks nothing like Hayden...the first reaction for a 1-6 viewer will be to wonder who the hell this old fart is. Well when a viewer watches Episode 3 and sees Anakin get his Vader suit, then later in Episode 6 sees the helmet come off, there is logically only 1 person that old guy could be. That, and by that time we know it's Anakin from Episode 6 alone. Yoda and Obi-wan confirm it and Vader himself says so.

That reaction will be justified when just a few minutes later, Hayd-akin fades in. And the initial argument still holds at that point that Luke will have no way in Hades to know who this "punk kid" is. The audience will know, but Luke won't. Not really. The guy he met in Empire and then saw in ROTJ doesn't resemble Hayd-akin in any way shape or form. Nadda. Zip. It's all just so disappointing. :(It's just common friggin' sense that Luke knows/figures out who it is.

stillakid
09-28-2004, 11:18 PM
It's just common friggin' sense that Luke knows/figures out who it is.

Is it? You yourself just stated that the audience will know that the old guy in the suit must be the same young guy they saw 4 episodes previous. But Luke didn't see Episode III. All he knows of his dad is A) the stories Owen told him, B) the stories Old Ben told him, C) the story Spirit Ben told him, D) the story that Masked Vader told him, E) the story that Sebastakin told him, F) the image of his dad (Sebastiakin) that he sees on the Death Star.

Luke doesn't ever A) see Hayd-akin, B) see Episodes 1-3, C) see Life as a House.

When Luke sees the ghosts at the end of ROTJ, he A) knows Spirit Ben already, B) recognizes the image/shape of Spirit Yoda, C) never saw that punk kid image in his life.

Could he use "friggin' common sense" to figure it out? Sure, why not? Can he be 100% positive that it's his daddy? No, he can't. It's a guess. Until one of those ghosts fades back in to have a chat, Luke will have to go to his deathbed not ever really knowing who that punk kid on the left was. As far as Luke knows, it could have been anyone. The leader of the Jedi's from long ago. Maybe a Midichlorian taking on a human shape (oops, Luke doesn't know about those either :sur: ). Or maybe it's the Emperor before he went bad. Any of those are just as plausible to Luke as the daddy thing. No?

2-1B
09-29-2004, 04:22 AM
No, they're not all plausible.

It's not a guess on Luke's part if he can feel his father.

Rocketboy
09-29-2004, 10:48 AM
Is it?Yes.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out...

stillakid
09-29-2004, 11:13 AM
No, they're not all plausible.

It's not a guess on Luke's part if he can feel his father.

Hey, this is a family friendly site! ;)


Sure they are plausible...to Luke. He's never seen Hayden Christenson before. But he has seen Sebastian Shaw, which is why that still makes more sense in the long run than haphazardly plopping Hayd-akin into a random ROTJ scene just to "tie the trilogies together." Besides, my own opinion is that because we never really see Hayd-akin as a "good guy," that if Lucas wanted to play this game right, a little Jake-akin ghost would be far more accurate being that that is the last time the character really was "good." Hayd-akin was never presented onscreen as anything but full of angst and anger. Hardly an example of "the good man who was your father" as Spirit Ben described him. Unless we toss out that line in Star Wars Version 3.0. ;)

Kidhuman
09-29-2004, 01:19 PM
Hardly an example of "the good man who was your father" as Spirit Ben described him. Unless we toss out that line in Star Wars Version 3.0. ;)


Stop giving Lucs ideas. :D

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-29-2004, 07:01 PM
Funny thing is, when I watched the movies this weekend, I believe four people said in unison, "Who's this punk kid!"

Okay, it was more along the lines of, "Who's that supposed to be?" But you get the idea.
Didn't you watch them 4-6, then 1-2? That might explain it a little bit. Or, the people you watched it with are just stupid. ;)

But if someone has the DVDs and wonders who that is, or even why he has long hair, then they can pop in disc 4 and see Hayden with long hair for several shots. But they should be able to figure out who it is anyway. Just like Luke did.

JediTricks
09-29-2004, 11:34 PM
I felt that all the previous examples already brought the point across with their reactions that it wasn't really needed at the end by having Luke change his demeanour. Circumstance wise there wasn't much difference from what I could tell other than the fact there was no other character to interact and convey what he was seeing and feeling without making the scene appear odd.I would probably agree with that sentiment, if within this film we still knew who we were looking at. You are saying it's ok to take out the verbal example because we've already seen it done, but with this new change we've had the visual example taken out of the equation.



I don't think seeing Episode III is necessarily important to connect the dots JT. We have Episode II which establishes Hayden as Anakin. But that is a different series of films, made with a different cast and different effects and in it he doesn't look the same. Should I assume C-3PO and Dannl Faytoni are the same character because they're played by the same guy? Another example would be that Lucas didn't make Ep 2 without directly establishing early on that Anakin was now Hayden Christiansen rather than Jake Lloyd.



I'll agree with you partially on this one. The evidence is still there. The only thing is it is no longer contained within a stand alone movie like before. You actually have to watch the other movies to draw the conclusion. Same with the Qui-Gon thing. You have to had seen Episode I to know he is Qui-Gon. I don't think you have to be entirely familiar with the SW universe to understand the basic idea, just as long as you watch all the chapters. Like reading a book, you wouldn't expect a person to get a sense of the whole story from just one chapter. Movies are not books, ROTJ was made alone, not at the same time as ESB. It was meant to be a continuation of the SW saga yet still appeal to general audiences who didn't see the last movie 3 years ago or the movie 3 years before that. I don't have to see Godfather 2 to know who Vito Corleone is in Godfather 1, prequel or not, because the character is established within the film itself.



sorry JT, but if on one hand the audience can recognize a smiley guy with full hair as the same crusty old burnout in the Vader suit minutes before . . . then the same audience can recognize Young Anakin with a wig.Gee, maybe they were supposed to recognize him because he was played by the same actor. :p Yoda was played by the same puppet, Obi-Wan wasn't replaced with Ewan McGregor... I know, I know, "it'll make sense because of what Ep 3 will say about how he was dead after that point in his life", but ROTJ refutes that with the dialogue from Luke and Vader.



Funny thing is, when I watched the movies this weekend, I believe four people said in unison, "Who's this punk kid!"

Okay, it was more along the lines of, "Who's that supposed to be?" But you get the idea. What a surprise (not really ;)). Didn't you say some of them had even seen Ep 2 already?

stillakid
09-30-2004, 12:21 AM
But they should be able to figure out who it is anyway. Just like Luke did.

I know that this is just fiction, but that statement really struck me weird. Call me crazy, but the Luke that originally was in that scene saw Sebastian Shaw. If I'm not mistaken, Lucas didn't go back and refilm Hamill looking at the new threesome. It's still the old gang but one of the original ghosts was excised and a new punk kid was plopped in there. So it "feels" disingenuous to suggest that the Luke from 1980 "figures out" that the brand spankin' new younger Anakin is his father in the same way that he could see that Sebastakin was his father. Is that making any sense? I know it's weird, but I'm trying to get "inside" the movie as if the characters were real and dealing with this. Not unlike a PURPLE ROSE OF CAIRO scenario.

2-1B
09-30-2004, 03:01 AM
No stillakid, it does not make sense because Luke was most likely "reacting" to a burly cameraman offscreen while Marquand told him to pretend that he was seeing his father. :p

JT, actually I would leave E3 out of it and say that it makes sense because of what Ben said in the OT about Anakin being destroyed. :D

stillakid
09-30-2004, 10:04 AM
No stillakid, it does not make sense because Luke was most likely "reacting" to a burly cameraman offscreen while Marquand told him to pretend that he was seeing his father. :p

True, sort of. What Marquand probably said was something like, "Mark, you look over here and you'll see ghosts of Alec, Yoda, and Sebastian standing here smiling at you." So at the time, "Luke" thought he was looking at Sebastian. Had Mark been told that he would be "seeing" some kid that hadn't even been born yet, as an actor, his reaction might likely have been different...more of a :sur: or a :confused: but not :) .

But I wasn't there...none of us were, so we have no way to know what Mark Hamill was told would be standing there. For all we know, Marquand told him that a Giant Stay Puft Marshmellow Man would appear. :p

Kidhuman
09-30-2004, 01:05 PM
But they should be able to figure out who it is anyway. Just like Luke did.


Who is to say Luke figured it out. He could have looked, smiled, turned around and thought "Who is this jerkwad?"

sg_inr
10-23-2004, 03:55 AM
I think they should have showed Natalie Portman in spirit form wearing a skimpy little skirt and sports bra. whos with me??

2-1B
08-11-2005, 05:26 AM
True, sort of. What Marquand probably said was something like, "Mark, you look over here and you'll see ghosts of Alec, Yoda, and Sebastian standing here smiling at you." So at the time, "Luke" thought he was looking at Sebastian. Had Mark been told that he would be "seeing" some kid that hadn't even been born yet, as an actor, his reaction might likely have been different...more of a :sur: or a :confused: but not :) .

But I wasn't there...none of us were, so we have no way to know what Mark Hamill was told would be standing there. For all we know, Marquand told him that a Giant Stay Puft Marshmellow Man would appear. :p

Oh, really ? :D You should ask Davey Boy Prowse about that considering Prowse got totally submarined (as he might spin it) in being denied the chance at playing Vader Unmasked. The way he tells the story, they filmed it on a separate stage when he didn't even know about it. So I wonder when Hamill knew ? Ultimately though, there's no way of knowing who or what Luke was told he was looking at . . . they probably just told him he was looking at Ben, Yoda, and his pops. Whether or not Mark knew WHAT his old man would look like is really unknown and IMO, irrelevant.


And I'll say it again, what if it had been spirit of Qui-Gon instead of Anakin there, what would Luke have thought? Would it had led him to erroneously believe it was his daddy as Anakin appeared 25 years ago?

Well if it makes you feel any better JT, we don't have to worry about any Jinn ghost appearances now do we ? :crazed:


I've gotta say, I think it's really a huge leap to assume that Luke would recognize the young Anakin. That sounds less like critical thinking, and more like wishful thinking.

Wow, I can't believe I didn't get riled up last year over the attack on the critical thinking (or lack thereof :rolleyes: ) of our POV. :rolleyes:

plasticfetish
08-11-2005, 07:23 AM
Don't you roll your eyes at me mister. (Or at my post from over a year ago. WTF? Isn't there a statute of limitation around here?) I stand by what I said then, (though I just assumed that I was being ignored and moved on. ;) )

The Hayden ghost thing at the end of ROTJ is lame. It's a cheesy gimmick pasted into the end of a movie that nearly suffers from too many gimmicks (aka Ewoks), but succeeds because of the strength behind the father/son story element.

I rate this film, as I do with all 6 of them, as an individual effort and a stand-alone story. The reveal of the older Anakin, and then the final reveal of the older Anakin's ghost makes sense in the context of the father being older than the son. It shows (movies "show" -- they're a visual medium) the difference in ages, communicating that concept quickly.

Plopping the young Anakin ghost in there (besides looking odd, because his pose, reaction and the lighting used on Hayden doesn't match the other two) is pointless within the context of the film. The entire film (ROTJ) has lead up to this idea of the now aged Anakin being freed from his enslavement to the darkside, thanks to the bond of love between father and son. (A stretch in itself, but what-the-heck, it's a fairy-tale.) There is no mention, hint, setup or allusion to Anakin as we know him in the prequels. The times that we've previously seen Jedi spirits, we've seen them as the other characters knew them last. We'd maybe have to assume that they can probably take any form (heck, they're ghosts) so why would Anakin bother with this weird kind of vain reveal of himself as a young adult?

Even for a fairy-tale it's too sappy.

...now don't get me started on why I hate the reveal of Jabba in ANH. (Way to kill the surprise that we all felt when we saw ROTJ for the first time George!)

2-1B
08-11-2005, 01:02 PM
Don't you roll your eyes at me mister. (Or at my post from over a year ago. WTF? Isn't there a statute of limitation around here?) I stand by what I said then, (though I just assumed that I was being ignored and moved on. ;)

Oh settle down, that's why it's funny - because it's been almost a year. :D
(not over a year ago, just almost a year ago. :crazed: )

As for the other stuff, blah blah blah you yourself said it's a fairy-tale so I'm not considering anything you said to be critically thought out, because fairy tales themselves are based on wishful thinking. :p ;)


We'd maybe have to assume that they can probably take any form

No assumptions necessary because even in '83 that first ghost did take the form of what he wasn't when he died. :)

Slicker
08-11-2005, 01:20 PM
Here's how the ending scene should've really gone down...

Kidhuman
08-11-2005, 01:28 PM
LMAO that was great

JediTricks
08-11-2005, 08:13 PM
Well if it makes you feel any better JT, we don't have to worry about any Jinn ghost appearances now do we ? How do you figure? Lucas could still add him in the next DVD.

I finally saw this on the DVD itself after all this talk. While not as bad as the Emperor Holo in ESB (that addition is awful, way under par for ILM work, it's cheap and amateurish-looking work at best), the addition of Hayden in ROTJ is surprisingly weak from a technical standpoint as the lighting and grain don't match, the kid is looking the wrong way and smiling at the camera, even the blue haze is slightly different.

On another aspect, how come Anakin has the Ep 3 long hair but not the scars? If this is supposed to represent Anakin as he was last as a good boy, which should be the Jake Lloyd character IMO since even that kid was one with the Dark Side in that movie it seemed, then he should appear as we last saw him before he became a Sith. Yoda and Ben don't have extra hair, so we know this isn't Ep 2 Anakin, yet Yoda's got his scars at the end and Ben's a wrinkly old man, so why doesn't Ep 3 Ani have his scars?

CaptainSolo1138
08-11-2005, 08:58 PM
Aw, man. Am I really gonna do this....... :crazed:

MAYBE Anakin lost his remaining good when he got the scars. How did he get them? I know it's some EU mumbo jumbo, so me making this up is just as good. If he was in combat when he got the cuts that lead to the scars, maybe he went ape s**t on whoever gave them to him and did his first real "dark deed". That's why the "good ghost" doesn't have the scars.

Or MAYBE it was just a production oversight. Gimme a bit and I'll come up with an explaination for the different "aura". :p

By the way, Slick, you have the non-Special Edition movie still. In the "final" shot, they added Chubs Peterson , an alligator, and Abe Lincoln.

2-1B
08-11-2005, 11:55 PM
How do you figure? Lucas could still add him in the next DVD.

I figure because the stuff that WAS cut of Qui-Gon from ROTS didn't even have him appearing as a ghost in the first place . . . so I think that even if GLu did go back to ROTS and add in the Qui-Gon voice stuff, we're still not going to see him. So ROTJ would be the second in line as far as that is concerned. Of course I can't rule it out completely but I do think it is not very likely. :)


On another aspect, how come Anakin has the Ep 3 long hair but not the scars? If this is supposed to represent Anakin as he was last as a good boy, which should be the Jake Lloyd character IMO since even that kid was one with the Dark Side in that movie it seemed, then he should appear as we last saw him before he became a Sith. Yoda and Ben don't have extra hair, so we know this isn't Ep 2 Anakin, yet Yoda's got his scars at the end and Ben's a wrinkly old man, so why doesn't Ep 3 Ani have his scars?

I'm not the one to ask :D, afterall you are of the Pro-Bas camp who was fine with Crusty McVaderSuit losing his scars as he became an old man ghost, so I figure the reasons are the same that Young Anners would lose that facial scar as well. :p

BTW, I never even noticed that the scar wasn't there, I never payed that close attention. Thanks for the heads up. :)