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View Full Version : ROTJ DVD: Lucas confirms Anakin KILLS HIS FATHER to take place at Palpatine's side



Tycho
10-01-2004, 02:46 AM
Put on the DVD commentary.

Watch Return of the Jedi, specifically for the part where Luke kicks Vader down the stairs: "I will not fight you father..." "You are unwise to lower your defenses!"


Lucas discusses that he is repeating themes and that in the prequel trilogy, Anakin KILLS HIS FATHER to become Palpatine's Sith Apprentice.


My only conclusion can be what it has always been: Count Dooku is Anakin's father.


Sure, Palpatine corrupting his offspring, like Vader corrupting Luke could come into play, if Palpatine was Anakin's father - but I doubt it.

Next, Obi-Wan as Anakin's surrogate father? Well, Anakin might try to kill Obi-Wan, but he doesn't succeed and it's almost Anakin's life that is lost.


Unless General Grevious is Anakin's father, then the "Vader-esqe cloak" that Dooku wears was our earliest clue, as well as his sad look when he cuts off Anakin's arm in AOTC: Anakin definitely has a Dad - and Dooku is the most likely choice.


I TOLD YOU SO! :D

Battle Droid
10-01-2004, 03:11 AM
It's definately not Grievous, he isn't even human & never was, or humanoid for that matter.

Elliejabbapop
10-01-2004, 03:14 AM
Put on the DVD commentary.

Watch Return of the Jedi, specifically for the part where Luke kicks Vader down the stairs: "I will not fight you father..." "You are unwise to lower your defenses!"


Lucas discusses that he is repeating themes and that in the prequel trilogy, Anakin KILLS HIS FATHER to become Palpatine's Sith Apprentice.


My only conclusion can be what it has always been: Count Dooku is Anakin's father.


Sure, Palpatine corrupting his offspring, like Vader corrupting Luke could come into play, if Palpatine was Anakin's father - but I doubt it.

Next, Obi-Wan as Anakin's surrogate father? Well, Anakin might try to kill Obi-Wan, but he doesn't succeed and it's almost Anakin's life that is lost.


Unless General Grevious is Anakin's father, then the "Vader-esqe cloak" that Dooku wears was our earliest clue, as well as his sad look when he cuts off Anakin's arm in AOTC: Anakin definitely has a Dad - and Dooku is the most likely choice.


I TOLD YOU SO! :D
This is unexpected :confused: We'll see, I'm very, very skeptical

hango fett
10-01-2004, 09:19 AM
hmm. i have to agree with jabbapop. i, as well, am very skeptical of this. it all sounds dandy in theory, but in the movie....i don't know...
HF

LTBasker
10-01-2004, 10:43 AM
Maybe Sidious was Anakin's father and in order to be by Palpatine he has to kill Sidious. ;)

stillakid
10-01-2004, 10:46 AM
Put on the DVD commentary.

Watch Return of the Jedi, specifically for the part where Luke kicks Vader down the stairs: "I will not fight you father..." "You are unwise to lower your defenses!"


Lucas discusses that he is repeating themes and that in the prequel trilogy, Anakin KILLS HIS FATHER to become Palpatine's Sith Apprentice.


My only conclusion can be what it has always been: Count Dooku is Anakin's father.


Sure, Palpatine corrupting his offspring, like Vader corrupting Luke could come into play, if Palpatine was Anakin's father - but I doubt it.

Next, Obi-Wan as Anakin's surrogate father? Well, Anakin might try to kill Obi-Wan, but he doesn't succeed and it's almost Anakin's life that is lost.


Unless General Grevious is Anakin's father, then the "Vader-esqe cloak" that Dooku wears was our earliest clue, as well as his sad look when he cuts off Anakin's arm in AOTC: Anakin definitely has a Dad - and Dooku is the most likely choice.


I TOLD YOU SO! :D

But we still have the problem of unlikely convenience to contend with if this is the case. The only reason Qui and Obi went to Tatooine in the first place is because
A) the negotiations didn't happen,
B) they were forced to a planet surface,
C) wherein they made their escape,
D) only to be shot at so their hyperdrive could be damaged,
E) so the closest place to get it fixed was an out of the way desert planet,
F) so that they would just happen to land in the city where Anakin was,
G) and just so happen to go to the exact shop where Anakin was working,
H) so that Anakin could give a blood sample,
I) and show off his "Force ability" via the podrace,
J) and be freed because Qui Gon makes a bet with the parts dealer.

Whew! I'm tired out just thinking about how all those necessary pieces just happened to fall into place.

IF this was Palpatine's plan all along,
A) he would have needed to know that Jedi were going to Naboo to negotiate a peace,
B) he would have needed to know that the Jedi would escape the ship
C) make it to the planet below
D) steal a ship for an escape
E) he would have had to have the pilot of that ship be in league with him so that the ship would fly DIRECTLY AT the Federation ship that was firing on them so that it would be hit, yet not destroyed,
F) so that it would have to find a port of call to make repairs
G) and the most logical choice would have to be Tatooine
H) and they would DEFINITELY land at no other place than outside Mos Eisley
I) and they would DEFINITELY head straight for Watto's shop where Anakin was working
J) and that the Jedi would not only find a way to fix the ship, but free Dooku's son (Anakin) in the process.

Above all, Palpatine would have had to know ALL OF THAT before Anakin had even been born!

Now unless someone wishes to rationalize the improbability of that away with "well, he forsaw it with the Force," then it is difficult to swallow. WAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY too many hoops to jump through to get from Point A to Point Z.

But I think even more important, is that it is unnecessary to have Dooku be Anakin's father. The only semi-reasonable rationale for it is to debunk the virgin-birth story. After that, having a Dooku-Ani relationship like that offers nothing to the story that I can think of. The only thing that it would do would be to call into question Schmi's credibility. And again, why? What purpose would it serve to the story? If there are answers to any of those perplexing questions, I'd love to hear them, but at present, I'm a blank. :confused:

jedi master sal
10-01-2004, 11:22 AM
Well it could serve a purpose. Allow me to play devils advocate for a moment. If Dooku is Anakin's father and He kills him, then finds out the Jedi found out or knew all along, he would have yet another reason to turn on them.

I personally have never liked the "virgin" birth thing, but according to the "prophecy" of the chosen one, it must be this way. If it were true that Dooku was Anakin's father, then Anakin is NOT the chosen one and the Jedi would have perished in vain for someone they believed to be the chosen one. Much death ensues after and the Empire is established. Is this the legacy of the chosen one? Very hard to swallow. So going on that, it actually does give credence to the possibliity of Dooku being Anakin's father.

It just worked out for the Rebellion and the citizens of the galaxy that Anakin, with the help of Luke, was able to see the light at the end. That means he was not the chosen one.

In which case, we have a story for the next three movies!!! Whoopie!

The true chosen one...

stillakid
10-01-2004, 01:27 PM
Well it could serve a purpose. Allow me to play devils advocate for a moment. If Dooku is Anakin's father and He kills him, then finds out the Jedi found out or knew all along, he would have yet another reason to turn on them.

We're treading into the hallowed ground of pure speculation here ;) , but the only way for this scenario to even remotely play out in a plausible manner is if QUI GON was part of this scheme all along. That way, he would have known to escape the Federation Ship (but why the ruse of trying to get into the control room?), get Amidala somehow, escape the planet but disable the ship (thus needing the cooperation of the pilot to fly DIRECTLY AT the Federation ship so that their own could be disabled, so that they could go to Tatooine, which so happens to be the closest place to affect repairs, so that Qui Gon could go "get" Anakin (a prearrangement with Palps and Dooku?). But again, lots and lots of hoops to jump through, not to mention that Qui Gon would be intentionally duping Obi Wan (for what reason?) and Schmi would be intentionally lying to Qui Gon (but wouldn't she be aware that Qui Gon would know about Anakin's father?) And to what end really? Why the Rube Goldbergian elaborate scheme just to get a gee-whiz kid out of slavery and into the hands of Palpatine? Couldn't Palpatine more easily have "taken" baby Anakin from Schmi and trained the boy from birth just as he had done with Maul? I don't understand what is to be gained by injecting such questions like this into the saga. Very confusing. :confused:



The true chosen one...
...I still like the idea of the true chosen one being Leia in the end. She could plausibly be the one to martyr herself to show Luke that he has repeated the sins of the father. She would wind up being the true savior of the galaxy on a philosophical level and rise to become the symbol of non-aggression and peace. But that's another story...

El Chuxter
10-01-2004, 01:42 PM
Okay, I normally wouldn't even be in here, but I saw that topic when looking up new posts and peed in my pants. :mad:

It goes in line with one other spoiler I unfortunately stumbled upon a few months ago. Apparently, in a recent interview, Christopher Lee makes the comment that his character is so evil, he orchestrated the murder of his former apprentice (read: Qui-Gon) ten years earlier (read: TPM).

And it would explain the supposedly throwaway line in the ANH novelization where Ben says that at one point, scientists tried to experiment with the Force, in this case by creating a clone (of who???) with an artificial level of what Qui-Gon was duped into believing were the basis of the Force and implanting the clone into Shmi and erasing her memory.

"Always two there are." Maybe Maul never really was a true apprentice, but merely a highly skilled user of the Dark Side who was fooled into believing he was a Sith?

And it would explain Dooku's comments in TPM. . . I always wondered why Nute Gunray supposedly went to Dooku specifically to tattle on Sidious, not to the Council? Wouldn't the entire Order defend a stool pigeon better than one rogue Jedi?

Elliejabbapop
10-01-2004, 02:07 PM
I have the flu, but some people have got far worse :confused: (no particular reference)

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-01-2004, 05:01 PM
Whoa, if Anakin really does have a father, that would be too sweet. So the midi-chlorians hting was all a hoax, then? Maybe? I think Dooku would be the best choice, but it could still be somebody else . . .

Tycho
10-02-2004, 02:27 AM
OK, I've done this like a million times in a million threads, but here it goes again - with some add-ins:


1) WHO has put in their ROTJ DVD, selected playback with commentary and gone to the Luke-Vader Duel scene when Luke kicks Vader down the steps and Vader comes back up to fight him? What is your independent analysis of what Lucas said? Does Anakin have a father for sure? Who is it?

If you bought the DVD, you ALL have access to this information now.

(I'm just a genious because I figured it out 2 years ago ;) )

2) The midichlorian test only serves 1 real purpose - it's an excuse for the Jedi to have a paternity test done on Anakin and for the High Council (at least) to know that Dooku was Anakin's dad. They have to learn this somehow because:

3) Anakin has to have something to get him so mad he decides to kill all the Jedi. That they never told him about his father and allowed him to kill Dooku after they didn't let him rescue his mother breaks the last straw with Anakin. I'd be mad beyond words myself. The plot to E3 just got confirmed to be better.


4) Shmi did lie to Qui-Gon to protect Anakin and Dooku's identities I guess. We'll find out in ROTS hopefully by some exposition back-fill - probably from Palpatine or supposition by another character who won't be able to prove it, but finds the going theory reasonable nevertheless. However, it explains why Shmi let her son go with Qui-Gon. Shmi knew OF Qui-Gon because of Dooku, but Qui-Gon did NOT know about Shmi.

5) There is no PLAN going on that Qui-Gon ends up on Tatooine by Anakin. It is "the will of the Force." It is coincidence -and a lot of them - but this is a fairy tale, so they're allowed.

STILLAKID: Palpatine/Sidiuos has nothing to do with Anakin being found and trained as a Jedi. I think it takes him completely by surprise.

Palpatine later figures out how to capitalize on a disadvantage to his plans.

hango fett
10-02-2004, 07:56 AM
i just watched that scene with commentary, tycho, and he definetly does say that this will be played out in a very similar way in the next movie. mmm...that will be awsome!
HF

stillakid
10-02-2004, 09:52 AM
4) Shmi did lie to Qui-Gon to protect Anakin and Dooku's identities I guess. We'll find out in ROTS hopefully by some exposition back-fill - probably from Palpatine or supposition by another character who won't be able to prove it, but finds the going theory reasonable nevertheless. However, it explains why Shmi let her son go with Qui-Gon. Shmi knew OF Qui-Gon because of Dooku, but Qui-Gon did NOT know about Shmi.

5) There is no PLAN going on that Qui-Gon ends up on Tatooine by Anakin. It is "the will of the Force." It is coincidence -and a lot of them - but this is a fairy tale, so they're allowed.

.

IF this IS the case, this is one of the worst stories ever written. This isn't just a small "coincidence" (getting Qui Gon to Tatooine to magically run into Anakin). This is massive and implausible at best. Even in fairy tales, there is a LOGICAL progression from point A to point B. A writer doesn't get a free pass on plausibility (within his built universe) just because of the genre title. IF we had seen A LOT of this massive kind of coincidence in any of the 3 Star Wars films prior to this, THEN perhaps it would be allowed. But the "will o' the Force" excuse wasn't used so ostentatiously at any other point of the story. And particularly that this event being the "ground zero" that really kicks off the saga, it NEEDS to be grounded in something even remotely resembling plausibility without "magic" or "fairies" or any other devices which require such huge amounts of forgiving by the audience.

Besides, it serves so little purpose that could have been accomplished in a myriad of other ways. I mean, if the ONLY point was to anger Hayd-akin even more, was it necessary to concoct such an elaborate Rube-Goldbergian situation just to do it? The answer of course is "no," but IF George decided to do this, it doesn't speak well to his ability to write in a clear, concise and plausible manner even within his own established universe. But then again, that doesn't seem to be anything new.

I guess we'll find out what's really going on in a few months. Here's to hopin' he gets it right this time. :D

Tycho
10-02-2004, 12:01 PM
I for one forgive George Lucas his coincidences in TPM as the lesser evil than having Anakin "go off on" killing Jedi just because they don't recognize his superiority or opinion about how to deal with the Separatists during the Clone Wars.

I strongly favor conicidence in TPM in order to get us to STRONGER MOTIVE in ROTS over anything else.

However, ANH had this coincidence: Leia sent R2 to find Obi-Wan Kenobi, but the droid is intercepted by Jawas and sold to the very farm Anakin's son is being raised on. Had R2 not wound up at Luke's in the first place, and just gone to Obi-Wan's, could you see Obi-Wan explaining to Owen that he had to "borrow his nephew to go off on some fool idealistic crusade?"

No.

The Jawas could have sold R2D2 to Bo Shek or Momaw Nadon, or Jabba the Hutt for that matter. Luke's just happened to be on their way.

Granted, geographic coincidences are more believable on one whole planet, versus one whole galaxy, but "the will of the Force" is operating here. Translation: FATE.

You may or may not agree with Lucas' reliance on that, but it brings us back to you WANT or DO NOT WANT Anakin to have a good, strong reason to go to the Dark Side?

TPM is done. I say let ROTS be as good as it can possibly be - and now it's sounding like one heck of a great movie!

Elliejabbapop
10-02-2004, 01:07 PM
TPM is done. I say let ROTS be as good as it can possibly be - and now it's sounding like one heck of a great movie!
Amen to that :)

Slicker
10-02-2004, 02:17 PM
My question is why would Dooku go to some backwoods, podunk planet to knock up some nasty old lady when he can get countless other better looking women?

stillakid
10-02-2004, 02:24 PM
II strongly favor conicidence in TPM in order to get us to STRONGER MOTIVE in ROTS over anything else.

...

Granted, geographic coincidences are more believable on one whole planet, versus one whole galaxy, but "the will of the Force" is operating here. Translation: FATE.

You may or may not agree with Lucas' reliance on that, but it brings us back to you WANT or DO NOT WANT Anakin to have a good, strong reason to go to the Dark Side?


Of course I want a strong reason (or reasons) for him to turn. But let's review. At this point, all we've got is him growing up to be a whiny baby. He complains that he isn't being allowed to advance while at the same time acknowledging that he knows why (that makes no sense at all). He complains that Obi Wan in particular is holding him back, but again acknowledges that Obi Wan is probably right in doing so. That pretty much takes care of the "Jedi" reasoning...which again, he pretty much negates himself because he admits that Obi Wan is right in holding him back.

We also have the death of his mother which has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone beyond the Tusken Raiders. Arguably, he already "turned" to the darkside, if only to them. No reason to go ballistic on the galaxy because the Sandpeople killed his mom.

We also have his lust for Padme, which winds up not being unrequited afterall. She's just as horny as he is so they hook up at the end. No problem there anymore.

That's pretty much it at this point for his angst. And none of it is justified in him wanting to destroy the Jedi. Nada.

So no STRONG points exist yet. And I would be loath to include "Dooku is your secret father" as a STRONG point. Dumb would be more like it. IF having Dooku as his father served any other purpose than just giving another silly reason to be angry at the world, then we can talk about it on another level, but if it's just so that Anakin can be mad, then it's just convoluted and not nearly enough to convince me that Anakin Skywalker becomes the evil Darth Vader in the OT films.

So, yeah, I do want a good STRONG reason, but I haven't seen or heard one yet. And at this rate, it sounds like it'll never happen. FATE is a cheap out for any story, especially in this case. Minor coincidences that move the story forward are expected, but this...this is way over the line. It was a coincidence that R2 wound up on the Beru farm, but entirely plausible given that he was headed in that direction anyway. The Phantom Menace scenario requires that several unrelated circumstances must occur for the heros to end up on Tatooine. They weren't "heading there" as part of the primary story. It was a matter of convenience just because the writer couldn't figure out a better way to have Obi Wan's and Anakin's paths cross.

Look at it this way: R2 wound up on Tatooine because that's where Obi Wan was. Obi Wan was there because that's where Luke was. R2 wound up at Luke's because he was on the way to Obi Wan. Han was included in the story because they needed a way off the planet. Leia got back into the story because she was where the planet used to be. One thing leads logically to the other because those things and people are on the way to where the characters have to go. But in Episode I, the characters do silly things (like aim the escaping ship right for the enemy so that it can become damaged all so that it has to go get repaired so that just by coincidence they run into Dooku's son?). C'mon! I don't ask for perfection, but I do hope Lucas will give me a little credit.

Elliejabbapop
10-02-2004, 03:15 PM
My question is why would Dooku go to some backwoods, podunk planet to knock up some nasty old lady when he can get countless other better looking women?
Nasty old lady? Shmi?:confused:

Tycho
10-02-2004, 03:36 PM
Stillakid:

from what I understand, a blockade is where you have all of your ships positioned so that no enemy ships get through. The Trade Federation should have had Naboo surrounded by ships (and we saw one side of the planet was at least), so the Royal Starship had to aim towards one of the blockading ships when they escaped. Other scenes like the Maul hologram scene confirms that the ships were still there, as they were when the Radiant 7 came in the first place.

That point is now moot. Droid fighters within the atmosphere might've forced the Royal ship on its course, just as TIE fighters forced the Falcon dangerously close to the Executor as they were escaping Bespin.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Does Anakin become the evil Darth Vader of the OT because he's mad that Dooku is his Dad? No I'm not saying that's the entire reason for one minute.

But I agree with you that he's over issues about Obi-Wan's training, Tuskens and his mother, Padme and forbidden love (they're sneaking around ok I gather if she's been able to get pregnant).

So...

If Anakin murders his own father and the Jedi let him (by not telling him, etc) he has a reason to get mad at the Jedi and try and kill them.

Revenge is not by itself a step into total evil.

We do know that Anakin takes a tribe for an eye (instead of an eye for an eye) so his revenge will be quite extreme. He feels he is avenging his family though, against Jedi rules and Jedi deception that prevented him from stopping tragedy from happening to them, and even made him a willing participant in the murder of his own father.

OK - now we have him motivated to kill the Jedi and committing evil acts, but not truly evil.

Next Obi-Wan tries to stop him and Padme interferes and is mortally wounded by Anakin by accident. This pushes him past the brink in his revenge motivation and anger displacement (I never said he was rational - all evidence points to him being immature and irrational if not bi-polar - well so are great villains in massacre movies - mentally imbalanced people like "Freddy, Jason, Michael Myers, etc.")

Now Anakin is left for dead and rebuilt into a machine with no family, no loved ones, and no one but a heartless Sith Master left for companionship for him. Obi-Wan and the Jedi are eventually all gone leaving him no one but himself for being the target of his anger.

As a trained Jedi, he feels that war and violence on a scale such as the Clone Wars is unnecessary and wasteful - therefore the Rebellion (any kind, Separatist, Rebel Alliance) whatever must be crushed so it can do no more harm.

As a Sith, he thinks the Empire imposes order and thereby security for the galaxy, keeping things in an acceptable status quo.

As a man that's trapped into what he's become, I think that he may very well know about Luke, as does the Emperor, but makes a deal with the Emperor to protect Luke so long as he does not become a Jedi and interfere with the Sith's plans for the galaxy. Vader makes this deal with the devil to protect his son. It's the logical move for him - as he's always wanting to care for and protect his family (be it his mom, Padme, or Obi-Wan once upon a time). So he wants to protect Luke.

I think he resents the Emperor, and the Empire since it's Palpatine's Empire, not his.

So if he ever wants to depose Palpatine, he might have to wait until Luke is old enough and trained, though Vader does want his son to be a Sith perhaps. Or Vader saw no more ways possible for him to ACT like a Jedi any longer - and he hated them anyway.

So in tracking down Luke and in fighting the Rebellion, Vader wants to destroy mistakes and failures, irradicate incompetance (characteristics of himself) and crush the Rebellion (thereby ending violence and death in his mind, as I'm sure he feels he'd make a better Emperor).

So Darth Vader is not evil even in the Classic Trilogy (by his own judgement maybe) but we see him kill Jedi for revenge, kill his own officers for incompetance, and crush rebels in the name of peace. His obsession with his son is only natural and fitting of the character established by Jake and Hayden if you look at it in movie NUMBER progressive order.

But taking it further, if he's truly made this deal with the devil (Emperor) than he's angry with himself and he contiues to displace that anger on everyone else (Antilles, Ozzel, etc.) Vader is not the same kind of sadist and cruel character that say Jabba the Hutt is. Do you see the difference?

However, Vader only has his anger as his only fuel and emotion he can relate to. That is the Dark Side.

Vader is not evil, but the negative emotions he subscribes to lead him to evil acts, but ultimately, by not being evil, he is redeemable - like Luke realizes.


But I'm sure if this conflicts with someone else's SUBJECTIVE opinion they formulated and stuck by ever since they were 6 years old and never rethought again, I'll get an argument on that too.

I'm saying it's not black and white, but with each movie we get more information and a mature person looks into the shades of grey and makes their evaluation there. Please consider the possibility with an open mind. It matters what you think now, but matters considerably LESS what you thought when you were 6 years old (or whatever age you were in childhood) when you saw these movies and said "Darth Vader is the bad guy." Duh. But anything in reality or with any sophistocation reasons "it's not just that simple." - and Lucas is a better writer than that.

DarthQuack
10-02-2004, 04:56 PM
This is all just crazyness lol :D

chrisc
10-02-2004, 08:12 PM
What happened to Shmi Skywalker in all this? Did Dooko impregnate her, wipe out that portion of her memory, and sell her into slavery? In Ep I she said there was no father. How can you explain this???

stillakid
10-02-2004, 08:37 PM
What happened to Shmi Skywalker in all this? Did Dooko impregnate her, wipe out that portion of her memory, and sell her into slavery? In Ep I she said there was no father. How can you explain this???


Right! Exactly.


Beyond that, Tycho, the "blockade" issue is hardly moot. The pilot flew the escape ship within meters of the Federation ship. A quick review of the sequence shows clearly that there are miles and miles of empty space to fly to instead of heading directly at the danger. No enemy fighters are anywhere to be seen. So the pilot's decision to stay on course even though he's getting shot at repeatedly implies that he's in league with whoever intends them to head for Tatooine. Even moreso, said pilot also would know which city to land next to. He might even have went as far as to recommend a parts dealer (offscreen). So there are only TWO choices left in this scenario: 1) RIC OLIE is part of the nefarious plan, or 2) we accept a crazy parade of happenstance, fate, and sheer dumb luck that gets Obi Wan and Ani to cross paths. Personally, I wouldn't vote for either in favor of the current idea that Ani is just a product of a virgin birth. As obvious (as a Jesus story) and dumb as it is, it is far better in its simplicity than the Rube Goldbergian machination of this Dooku/father routine. Seriously, I was willing to give ROTS a chance on its own merits before (not liking, but accepting the Vader reveal nonsense and other tomfoolery) but if Dooku winds up being Anakin's father, it WILL BE the last straw.

Tycho
10-02-2004, 09:51 PM
What happened to Shmi Skywalker in all this? Did Dooko impregnate her, wipe out that portion of her memory, and sell her into slavery? In Ep I she said there was no father. How can you explain this???


In the recurring theme manner of "Darth Vader betrayed and murdered your father," - a lie, Shmi Skywalker lied to Qui-Gon and no he "couldn't tell she was lying through the Force," or perhaps just that she was omitting things "from a certain point of view."

From a certain point of view:

a father cares for his offspring
a father provides for his offspring
a father advises and guides his offspring

Shmi just had an "impregnator" that she didn't forget, but at least didn't want to tarnish the reputation of (Dooku) since she knew Qui-Gon was like his "son" - from a certain point of view. Only Qui-Gon would have been in his later 40's and far away and independent from Dooku when Anakin was born. Actually, I think Qui-Gon was officially 51 when Anakin was born. He's not likely to be around Dooku then.

In any case, perhaps Shmi wanted Qui-Gon to free her son and take him away to live a better life, and from her brief experience with Jedi, she knew that if Qui-Gon learned Anakin was Dooku's offspring, perhaps he wouldn't take him because it'd cause trouble for his former master who broke the Jedi code.

Shmi had possible reasons to LIE.

Just like in ANH, in TPM (the first movie in either series) a lie is told and the truth not totally exposed until the 3rd movie.


Stillakid just wants to argue with people and therefore needs to state he dislikes any new direction SW takes whereas before I was sure I had him pegged as saying Anakin needs more motivation for going over to the Dark Side. Here is a perfect reason, we don't even have it totally confirmed, and Stillakid is dogging it. Very predictable.


Finally as to the Virgin Birth and Chosen One ideas: perhaps Lucas is alluding towards the "real world and views of Christ today."

Not everyone thinks Jesus Christ was born to a virgin. Mary was with Joseph who acted like Jesus' father and Mary's husband instead of letting her get stoned to death (and him and the baby as well) for having a child out of wedlock, they said "Oh look! It's a miracle." Now I happen to believe Jesus was a great man and worthy of studying his lessons, but that doesn't mean he came from a virgin birth. These things come out of the Bible which some people believe are just stories of legend, not literal fact.


Taking this back to the Prophesy of the Chosen One, another big Ep 3 secret might be that THERE IS NO CHOSEN ONE. It is a legend, a myth, b.s. and just because Qui-Gon believes in it, and Mace might, Yoda seems skeptical and Obi-Wan does as well. If you want to believe in Christ being born to a virgin and the son of God, go right ahead. If Mace and Qui-Gon want to believe Anakin was born to a virgin and is "the chosen one who will restore balance to the Force," they can go ahead. Sometimes people create self-fulfilling prophesies by just believing in stuff. I don't have too high of regard for Anakin's intelligence compared to other characters in the film, and I don't think he's much of a philosopher. He doesn't dwell on destiny and he's thinking of nothing but saving his son when he throws Palpatine down the turbolift shaft. Maybe the Jedi create this "Chosen One thing" but it never really existed. That's Lucas' message.

So bringing it back to reality: you have a choice in whether you believe Christ was divinely conceived or if he was Joseph's son.

Mace might know Anakin is Dooku's son, but still chooses to believe in the Chosen One bit, or at least encourages Obi-Wan to. Religion is a funny thing with non-believers becoming ministers, and the faithful doing the wrong things for the right reasons.

I'm strongly leaning towards the Jedi being all wrong and that there is NO chosen one.

stillakid
10-02-2004, 10:32 PM
Stillakid just wants to argue with people and therefore needs to state he dislikes any new direction SW takes whereas before I was sure I had him pegged as saying Anakin needs more motivation for going over to the Dark Side. Here is a perfect reason, we don't even have it totally confirmed, and Stillakid is dogging it. Very predictable.

Hey, that's pretty unfair and a rash generalization at that. I love to walk into a movie theater to experience the unexpected, but it had better be within the realm of established continuity and within the scope of plausibility without the need for extensive explanation. This Dooku/father Schmi/point of view scenario just doesn't fit within the parameters of what we've come to know as a "Star Wars story." It's just so convoluted and relies on too many "coincidences" in order for it to work. As you've pointed out, one or two per story do occur, but they aren't anything serious. But this scenario requires 5 to 10 wholly unrelated elements to take place in order for any of it to work. So anyway, I'm not "dogging" the scenario just to dog it. That's a cop out on your part. I'm examining the points of conjecture on their own merit and arriving at a logical conclusion. Which is what I've consistently done for years. So I suppose that is "predictable." :rolleyes:


But this is the whole problem with conjecture which is why I tend to stay away from it. It is one backseat writer's idea of how a story could go based on A) what we know from before and B) from speculation from others. It's a crap shoot. Given that, it is obvious that a Pre-Darth Vader would need a strong motivation to become the demon that we see later on. What I'm pointing out is that so far in Episodes I and II, nothing even close to a strong motivation has been illustrated. This leaves the events of Episode III to close that gap. Anything from a love triangle problem to Padme's death could potentially p.o. Anakin enough...maybe. And sure, some deep secret about Anakin's past could potentially anger him as well. The steps required to get there as you describe are horribly complicated and implausible. But more than that, Anakin's anger in this scenario would depend on the idea that EVERY JEDI knew about the Dooku thing therefore justifying his drive to exterminate them all and join Palpatine. At best, if true, maybe Yoda and/or Mace are in on it. Maybe one or two more...maybe. But that's a far cry from Anakin properly indicting the entire organization and turning evil. So not only is the journey to this conclusion improbable, but the destination is weak as well. Which is why one of my first questions way back when was what purpose would this scenario really serve anyway? Just to ****-off Anakin? To you, perhaps that's enough. Fair enough. Enjoy yourself. :) But for me, I need more. In order for the Hayd-akin incarnation to bridge the gap between whine-boy and bad-arse Vader, there has to be something far stronger than this "wahhh, :cry: you ...two guys....didn't tell me about my dad and now I've killed him... :cry: wahh, now I'm going to turn evil and kill EVERYBODY...even people I haven't met yet....wahhhh!"

Sorry, I can't buy that. I hope that Lucas has something better. But if not, it's nice to know that his efforts won't be wasted. ;)

Tycho
10-02-2004, 10:45 PM
OK, and I accept that you are looking at things logically.

I just don't expect you'll find logical answers, but these coincidences will be left as just that: coincidences chalked up to either illogical writing because Lucas did not get THAT detailed, or to typical Hollywood: a car explodes when it flips over not because cars DO THAT, but because it looks cool on a teaser preview and the audience wants it to work that easily.

Like I said, it's more important that Anakin's reasons for turning against the Jedi are logical and passionate instead of shallow and insane.



There might be more I haven't figured out yet and will be surprised by such as where Shmi came from and where Anakin was born and how Dooku got to know them - or if Palpatine ever had heard of them before the Battle of Naboo, etc.

So the story could still get more plausible and believeable as new details are revealed. Meanwhile, you won't be surprised by them if you read spoilers. When conjecture gets closer to confirmation, that too is spoilers

For me, I'll take the surprise a bit at a time: such as each little confirmation. In the theater my surprise will be how well (or not) it translates to the screen (based on effects, performances, etc.)

Anyway: here's the ball back again.

stillakid
10-03-2004, 12:07 AM
or to typical Hollywood: a car explodes when it flips over not because cars DO THAT, but because it looks cool on a teaser preview and the audience wants it to work that easily.


The DUKES OF HAZZARD is being made and Jessica (hubba hubba) Simpson will play Daisy! I'll take that kind of Hollywood any day. :smoker:

;)


But I wanted to address a comment you made earlier about Star Wars and "new directions." While it is admirable that Lucas even would attempt to provide knowledgable fans with the unexpected in the last film of the series, he doesn't really have the luxury of branching off in new directions at this stage of the game. He purposefully built an entire linear story (theoretically) broken down into convenient episodes that allow for bathroom breaks in between. While each episode ideally should play as an independent story in and of itself (because of the medium he's using), they are still each a part of a greater whole. Therefore each MUST remain true to the overall style, mood, tempo, look, and continuity that the previous episodes established. He chose the mechanism (the episodic) to tell this story so he has the responsibility to remain true to it, even if he wanted to branch off to try something a little different. It's not his right to do such a thing if he wanted to also suggest that all was well and good in Lucasville. He can stretch his experimental wings on some other THX-like project. But Star Wars left the gate a long time ago. It really isn't his anymore. It is its own thing. It has a life of its own and he has a responsibility to build each new episode and each new incarnation of the story within the established boundries.

2-1B
10-03-2004, 01:55 AM
I always thought Ric Olie looked shifty. lol

Tycho, I haven't played the commentary yet but I personally doubt that Lucas is supposed to be taken literally.

He probably is just referring to the "theme" of Anakin killing a servant to become one himself, just as Luke is supposed to.

I know, I know, I haven't even listened to it yet . . . but I will. Soon. ;)

And if I'm wrong, I'll give you all the credit in the world. :p

mabudonicus
10-03-2004, 05:53 AM
Tycho, I'm gonna look back at old threads to see who's first; in the "mace is a bad guy" thread I also long ago posited that Shmi lied to qui-gonn to protect dooku (jedi knows not love, or whatever)
Stilla- maybe Shmi was on tatooine at dooku's request, to keep her "secret and safe"
(although every film in the PT so far shows how wrong that was)


And since I set this all up in another thread I'll keep it short....

Dooku will no doubt make the same appeal to Anakin as he did to obi-wan in AOTC (and the same appeal Darth made to Luke), at least I'm hoping, the whole "join me and defeat the emperor" thing, and when Anakin doesn't go for it (likely asking "why should I???") we can have a repeat of "I am your father", maybe right as dooku dies even, but I'm hoping that knowing he just killed his own father would be enough to explain a mega-jedi-freak out (as Tycho mentioned, combined with everything else)

oldschool
10-03-2004, 08:25 AM
What if Mace Windu is Anakins dad?

stillakid
10-03-2004, 08:59 AM
What if Yoda is Anakin's dad? :D

Seriously. I mean, this whole line of conjecture could conceivably involve any number of characters. There's no one thing that I can think of (enlighten me) that points specifically to Dooku. Is there?

Tycho
10-03-2004, 09:48 AM
Something has to happen that in Anakin's sense of justice, warrants a death sentence on the Jedi. Them not acknowledging how good he is in combat is not enough to drive any sense of passion (or compassion on the part of the audience) into Anakin's cause. I think that Vader is a tragic character and the audience must find something to sympathize with him or they'll be wanting Luke to kill him instead of redeem him.

So, what has to happen to warrant an "eye for an eye" by Anakin's overkill sense of justice? For a death sentence for the Jedi, Anakin must be convinced the Jedi killed someone else unjustly (most likely - or the alternative is that the reason is just stupid).

Now Anakin has issues and tends to displace anger towards himself for his own failures and blames them on other people. "His mom died because Obi-Wan was holding him back." (according to Anakin) "He wasn't good enough. He wasn't strong enough to save his mother." (according to Anakin - who really had nothing to do with his mother's death and in one possibility could never have gotten to Tatooine in time as the damage the Tuskens did was already done.)

So, I figure Anakin has to do something greatly unjust, and it has to be a life-and-death error on his part, that he'll blame the Jedi for instead, thereby causing him to irrationally unravel and decide to kill Mace Windu, and then more Jedi following that.

If Anakin kills anyone in the movie, it is an action he cannot take back.

If someone scratches the paint on Palpatine's car, Anakin would go cut off a wing of Mace's starfighter. If he made a mistake, and Mace didn't scratch Palpatine's car, Anakin could fix the starfighter he damaged.

But if Anakin kills someone and then won't accept the blame for it, he'll take another life to equate justice for it - and we've already seen that he takes a lot of lives in retribution. But once he starts a war with the Jedi, he'll have to finish it because he's created a very dangerous enemy in the Jedi for sure.

So who will Anakin kill that he'll later regret killing?

He doesn't kill Obi-Wan.
He doesn't kill Yoda.
He doesn't kill Palpatine.

I think he doesn't kill General Grevious (Obi-Wan does, the 2nd time they fight)

Anakin kills Dooku, perhaps at Palpatine's encouragement.

If Palpatine feigns innocense as to Dooku's identity, but "finds out on behalf of Anakin ('for saving the captured Palpatine's life'), Anakin won't blame Palpatine (or can't destroy him) - but he will blame the Jedi for not telling him and allowing him to murder his own father.

Anakin is all about saving his family. Some of his family are blood:

Shmi, Dooku, Luke, Leia

Some of his family are by relationship-association:

Obi-Wan, Padme

Anakin tries to rescue every one of these characters at some point in the trilogy (except Leia maybe - though "She may yet be of some use to us" might be seeing as delaying Tarkin.) Dooku he doesn't know about or understand his relationship to. It's the only chance for him to kill someone that's family and regret it.

It's the only character I think he could kill and regret killing - blaming his misinformation on someone else.

In combat a soldier blames misinformation on his own commanders and their intelligence. Mace Windu and the Jedi Council are Anakin's higher-ups. That's where he'll lay the blame for his actions he doesn't want to take responsibility for.

Darth Grifter
10-03-2004, 02:11 PM
this is a convincing argument tycho, but i have a real hard time accepting this. i'm sure that GL is trying his hardest to "echo" the OT with the PT and making anakin have a father would be the ultimate mirror set up between the two trilogies; however, why would shmi have said there was no father...i just can't get past that. it is possible that dooku would have memory wiped her, or palpatine for that fact, but why would this have been brought up in TPM that there was no father, thus solidifying the "savior" role that the jedi were looking for.

i still think that anakin's rage against the jedi is going to come from his blaming them for padme's death, much the same way that he blames obi-wan for his mother's death.

now, i'm not saying that i wouldn't put it past GL to throw this out in RoTS, but it would be very contrived...oh wait -- :D;)

hango fett
10-03-2004, 02:29 PM
i just think it's amazing how many people can be ani's dad. like stillakid said, it could be anyone in the star wars universe, but i am going to lean more towards dooku. reason being is that he went to the dark side as well, and anikan could copy this...just something to think about. sorry if it was said.
HF

stillakid
10-03-2004, 07:55 PM
I think that Vader is a tragic character and the audience must find something to sympathize with him or they'll be wanting Luke to kill him instead of redeem him.

Damn, you hit the nail on the head with that statement. Wish I would have thought of it. And you summed up the situation pretty accurately as well. I think that the biggest problem Lucas has going into Episode III is that so far, Anakin isn't the slightest bit the empathetic character. He's not tragic. He's just a big whiny baby. As you point out, none of his rants thus far have been justified, which doesn't in and of itself disqualify him from turning "bad" in a Vader kind of way, but more importantly, for this entire saga to work, Anakin must....MUST be a sympathetic character or else the final redemption scene will make Luke come off like a duped oaf. Vader needs to turn bad for a very justifiable reason, not these silly infantile temper tantrum reasons we've seen so far. To that end, I personally don't think that having Dooku turn out to be his father works one single bit for the story. There are too many big logistical problems with it (as noted previously) as well as requiring a major explanation regarding Schmi's story in TPM. And as noted, I also don't think that the situation merits much sympathy for Anakin from the audience, which again is paramount to having a successful climax in Episode VI. Lucas has already effed up enough. God forbid this Dooku thing happens. :sur:

Phantom-like Menace
10-04-2004, 12:09 AM
If I allow that Mace and Yoda may have some motivation in stringing Obi-Wan and Anakin along, allowing them to think Anakin may be this chosen one instead of merely an embarrassment to Dooku for defying the Jedi code and sleeping around and Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon for being stupid enough to think Anakin may be legitimate (in terms of his status as the chosen one not parentage), I still have one quick problem with the idea that Dooku is the father:

Obi-Wan (referring to Anakin's midichlorian count): ". . . over twenty thousand. Even Master Yoda doesn't have a midichlorian count that high.

Qui-Gon: "No Jedi has. Oh! wait, except for my old master, who has a midichlorian count so high he can knock up any random woman and have a kid with more than twenty thousand. Actually that's why they called him The Count. He always bragged about that. He always said . . . give me any random woman . . ."

Anakin's stock seems to come from something better than Dooku.

2-1B
10-04-2004, 01:44 AM
Sorry Tycho but I just watched that part (well, listened to that part) of the commentary and I think you are taking Lucas too literally.

It is vague, yes, but definitely NOT a confirmation that Anakin kills his father.

I think that Lucas is just referring to how Anakin will kill Dooku to replace him as Palps' apprentice, just like how Palps wants Luke to do the same to Anakin/Vader.

DarthChuckMc
10-04-2004, 07:47 AM
What pushes Anakin over the edge? What makes him the evil Darth Vader?

Simple......Palpatine. The guy is a maniacal puppet master. He twists everything to his advantage.

He knows Anakin is an emotional retard, and uses it to dupe him into doing irrational, mean, evil things. Anakin never seems to have matured into a mentally stable, rational adult. Like someone mentioned earlier, he's almost bi-polar.

Palpatine knows just how to push his buttons, and uses Anakin to carry out his most nefarious plans, like exterminating the Jedi. If the Jedi are around, they pose a threat to the new Empire, so Palps convinces Anakin, and most everyone in the known universe, that the Jedi are responsible for the Clone Wars, and the general corruption of the galaxy.

Palps gives Anakin a chance to take revenge on the Jedi, to wipe out the cause of all the strife and bring order back to the universe.

Anakin is Vader because Palpatine made him that way.

Tycho
10-04-2004, 08:06 AM
OK, I've read a lot of your well-thought-out reasoning and have a few points to add back into the mix of things.

DARTH GRIFTER

1) Shmi said there was no father - well again - she LIED or described it from "a certain point of view" since her impregnator didn't stick around to RAISE a child with her.

Why do you think "Shmi cannot tell a lie" when in A NEW HOPE Obi-Wan tells the biggest whopper - that Vader killed Luke's dad?

Just like the father vs. son motiff is continuing, the "first movie there's a lie" pattern is continuing too. Shmi could lie to a Jedi because she believed it. Many people can pass a police polygraph by believing their story and not being nervous and trip up the pulse and blood-pressure monitoring of the machine. Perhaps what can be detected in the Force by a nervous liar is no different, but Shmi KNEW there was no father RAISING her son, so she believed that from a certain point of view.

(and Stillakid, why do you consistantly mispell her name? It's on her action figure packaging as S-H-M-I.)


YES ANAKIN BLAMES THE JEDI FOR PADME'S DEATH TOO, HOWEVER....

Spoilers have revealed the pattern of events already:

Anakin gets really mad and goes over the edge and KILLS MACE and MURDERS JEDI YOUNGLINGS while attacking the Jedi Temple before Obi-Wan learns of this and goes to Naboo to confront Padme to find out where Anakin is.

THEN Padme stows away aboard Obi-Wan's ship as Obi-Wan races to Mustafar where Anakin is killing the Separatists' last leaders so that he can confront his former apprentice. When Padme interferes in their argument, Anakin Force-throws her in his rage that she betrayed him to Obi-Wan, and in that throw, she is mortally wounded while still pregnant. When Anakin realizes what he's done, he then blames Obi-Wan for it (nobody said he was rational). Then he charges Obi-Wan, trying to kill him in THE DUEL.

Anakin is already a Dark Jedi and a murderer by the time he confronts Obi-Wan and mortally wounds Padme. Her impending death sets him off to fighting Obi-Wan, but SOMETHING PREVIOUSLY HAD TO CAUSE HIM TO KILL MACE AND START FINISHING OFF THE JEDI.

We're after that reason. I believe it's because the Jedi did not stop him from killing his own father - Dooku.

When Palpatine lets him in on the truth, Anakin kills Mace.

When Anakin realizes Palpatine's power, and finally owes his life and reconstruction as Darth Vader to him, he takes his father's place at Darth Sidious' side.

PHANTOM-LIKE MENACE

As to Anakin's midi-chlorian count: we know the Force ability can be passed on by heredity - Luke has it.

We heard no Jedi has a midi-count as high as Anakin's.

However, no Jedi is supposed to have children - perhaps for this reason: the offspring will become more powerful than the parents and the masters.

Force-sensitivity may be naturally occuring and good candidates become Jedi, but it is controlled by having them not have children so "the mutations" don't get out of hand.

That Dooku's offspring would have more midi-chlorians than Dooku is perfectly logical if it is a dominant gene trait with increasing frequency in offspring - sort of like evolution.

Thus we can assume that Luke will eventually be more powerful than his father ever was.

STILLAKID

I have sympathy for Anakin already, so whatever Lucas is doing in that regards, works better for me than it does for you.

- I understand he wanted to rescue and honor his mother, and she died and he thinks he failed her.

- I understand that he was ashamed to be a slave and that he wants to earn a higher status and social acceptance from those who are free and even those who are senators and Jedi.

- I understand that he always dreamed he'd marry Padme since he first had a kiddie-crush on her and he single-mindedly pursued her. We'd all like to have the girl we always wanted, and then "make things perfect if we get her."

- I understand he wants Obi-Wan to acknowledge how much he's learned, how great of connection to the Force he has, and how skilled he is - and then confirm it by letting him take his Trials and become a Jedi Knight. There's a tremendous need for "a father's approval" here and Obi-Wan is exceptionally careful with Anakin and it hurts Anakin deeply, shaking his confidence.

- I understand that he thinks the Jedi (as well as Obi-Wan) never wanted him, but he became Qui-Gon's charity project, but he resents Mace and Yoda and some of the others for that and wants some kind of closure from that such as they admitting they were wrong and acknowledging his becoming some kind of Super-Jedi.

- Anakin doesn't have a trusted "Family" or group on "his side" left. The Jedi were never there, and he's reaching out to Padme to be there. If he had a father still alive, it'd be natural that he'd want this relationship, just as in The Empire Strikes Back, where he wants that relationship with a son.

El Chuxter
10-04-2004, 10:49 AM
It's tough to read this thread and sort out the other spoilers. :D

stillakid, I have to ask you: given a choice between coinkindink and immaculate conception, would you really prefer the latter?

Shmi didn't lie. She was a simple woman and didn't understand what happened. "There was no father. I carried him, I gave birth to him. I can't explain what happened." Anakin was not conceived by the traditional method, meaning Dooku didn't have to take her out for dinner and a movie first. If Dooku was truly his father, not his "creator" (for lack of a better term), then why would his midi count be so ridiculously high. Important or not in terms of understanding the Force, the Jedi apparently did count them, and it would be common knowledge if one of their own had such a high count. Shmi seems to have no Force sensitivity, so it's doubtful they came from her.

stillakid
10-04-2004, 11:52 AM
stillakid, I have to ask you: given a choice between coinkindink and immaculate conception, would you really prefer the latter?
.

If I have to choose, it would be the immaculate conception, which is what I think it will remain anyway. As dumb and obvious a plot element as it is, it fits within Lucas's previous attempts to bring earthly mythology and such into his story. It's a far more logical explanation than to think that Lucas has the wherewithal to concoct an elaborate storyline like the one Tycho proposes. Lucas just flat out doesn't have it in him. He's more of a "broad strokes" and "beat us over the head" kind of guy. It took other writers to smooth out the bluntness of his previous scripts into something far more subtle. I haven't been given any reason to believe that things have changed.


But if we can step away from the Prequel mess for a minute, I'd like to reintroduce a line of dialogue from ROTJ that, for me anyway, really speaks to the kind of person that Anakin has become, and possibly should show us why he becomes what he becomes. When he and Luke are out on the gantry on Endor, Vader says, "You don't know the power of the darkside. I must obey my Master."

Okay, so if we forget all about everything we've seen in the Prequels for a minute, one could look at his dialogue and his demeanor at that point and others and make a fair assessment that Vader...that Anakin....was a fairly "normal" guy. What I mean is that he really seems to be on top of things. He isn't going off half-cocked killing and marauding just for the sake of doing it...just to appease his rage. No, something quite different is going on with the Vader/Anakin of the OT. He knows what he is and how he got there. He is exceedingly aware of the trap he put himself into. Kind of like a smoker. :smoker: He knows the danger of the darkside, seems to be aware of it now anyway, and knows that it's a hard habit to break. Of course, whether he was aware of it back in the days of pre-mask is one thing that we could argue about, but based on what we see of him from IV to VI, it sure looks a lot like he didn't come from a bipolar-angry-full-of-rage past. It looks and sounds more like he decided to take the easy way toward power (just like Luke almost did after Dagobah). Palpatine was there to goad him into it whereas Yoda was there to protect Luke from it.

The motivation I've just described is decidely different from the present Prequel situation we've been watching. Anakin's "turn" has less to do with just finding a quick and easy path to power and more to do with him just getting "angry" for a series of unjustifiable events. I guess the argument has been made that perhaps the Dooku thing on it's own isn't enough to turn Anakin into Vader, but coupled with the other things (mom dying, Obi holding him back, slavery, etc), maybe Anakin could "slip" into despair enough to make him have enough RAGE that would make him into a Darth Vader kind of guy. The only problem as I see it is that Vader isn't that kind of guy. Vader isn't full of rage. He doesn't continue to make excuses for his own failures. No, for all his faults, he's a pretty even-keeled character. When he says, "You don't know the power of the darkside," he's telling Luke that he fell into his situation because it sucked him in and he gets his high off of it. He's not saying that he had a series of events which caused him to become enraged at everything and everybody enough to destroy it all.

This is the subtlety that I've been talking about for years. These are the subtle points of story and character that Lucas fails to see in his own creation. This is why I've vehemently opposed most of the Prequel decisions thus far and why I would include a Dooku scenario as well. Not only is it a convoluted mess of a scenario, but more importantly it just doesn't fit with the established character of Darth Vader that we already know and love.


I'm stillakid and I approve this message.

derek
10-04-2004, 04:04 PM
) WHO has put in their ROTJ DVD, selected playback with commentary and gone to the Luke-Vader Duel scene when Luke kicks Vader down the steps and Vader comes back up to fight him? What is your independent analysis of what Lucas said? Does Anakin have a father for sure? Who is it?

i did. (it's chapter 39 or 40 by the way):)

i think you're hearing what you want to hear tycho.

no where in the commentary did lucas say "anakin kills his father".

he was talking about apprentiances killing other apprentainces.

he said the emperor is disapointed in vader because he's half machine and not as powerful as he could be, so he wants luke to kill him(vader) and take his palce at the emperor's side, just as anakin killed his apprentance(dooku) and took his place.

while this is going on, vader wants luke to kill the emperor so vader can become number one. i assume dooku wants the same thing, as he already told obi wan in episode 2.

apprentiances killing apprentiances and apprentiances wanting to kill their master are the recurring themes lucas was referring to, not sons killing their fathers.

Phantom-like Menace
10-04-2004, 04:41 PM
PHANTOM-LIKE MENACE

As to Anakin's midi-chlorian count: we know the Force ability can be passed on by heredity - Luke has it.

We heard no Jedi has a midi-count as high as Anakin's.

However, no Jedi is supposed to have children - perhaps for this reason: the offspring will become more powerful than the parents and the masters.

Force-sensitivity may be naturally occuring and good candidates become Jedi, but it is controlled by having them not have children so "the mutations" don't get out of hand.

That Dooku's offspring would have more midi-chlorians than Dooku is perfectly logical if it is a dominant gene trait with increasing frequency in offspring - sort of like evolution.

Thus we can assume that Luke will eventually be more powerful than his father ever was.
I couldn't speculate, but the simplest explanation would be that Force abilities are genetic, not spontaneous mutations, which would imply, that all things being equal, an offspring's abilities with the Force are based on the parents' abilities, so a child born of one person strong in the Force and a person weak in the Force would result in a person of average strength. If the idea of offspring being stronger than their parents is true, the Sith should have figured out long ago to stop fighting and devoting themselves to ancient religions and start playing some Barry White, turning down the lights and letting the airspeeder start a rockin'. Palpatine likes to do things through puppets, but tell me he wouldn't personally want to make a little Palpatine with Padme and I will tell you the Emperor's stupidity was why he lost.

stillakid
10-04-2004, 05:43 PM
Palpatine likes to do things through puppets, but tell me he wouldn't personally want to make a little Palpatine with Padme and I will tell you the Emperor's stupidity was why he lost.


That's another interesting and valid point. I've touched on this previously as well and went so far as to suggest that Palpatine, in fact, is NOT a Force user himself...at least not until well into the Original Trilogy.

The fact of the matter is that he just flat out doesn't need to use the Force or any kind of "dark manipulation" to get his plan into motion. Based purely on the events in the Prequels, he is using more down to earth (down to Coruscant ;) ) methods of politics to achieve everything. (Aside from the other fact that all of his plans do work but only out of shear dumb luck, but that's another discussion).

But anyway, the reason this is relevant to your statement above is because you're right...if Palpy wanted a powerful Force user at his side then it would have been in his best interest to knock up some other Force User (female) and take the child away until it was old enough to be useful (ala, Maul). But he doesn't...so why not we might ask?

Well first off, if he was really a Force user throughout TPM and AOTC, the Jedi surely would have "felt" his presence anytime they stood near him. There is evidence of this occurring during ANH when Old Ben is hiding out inside the Falcon and Vader senses his old master. That is just one example amongst many. So right there, it is clear that Palpatine is not a Force user himself.

With that idea in mind, that a Force user would give himself away so easily, Palpatine would not want to use it himself nor necessarily be around anyone who does for very long. Yeah, he uses Maul, but Obi Wan's statement at the beginning of TPM seems to suggest that he senses Maul (I sense something elusive). No, we don't know for sure what he's referring to, but given the evidence, he can't be sensing Palpatine. And according to TPM, there are only two bad guys at a time, so Maul is the only other choice.

So while Palpatine is free to run around the government buildings secure in the knowledge that nobody can sense him (because he isn't a Force user), he sends Maul out as the muscle. But then he dies unexpectedly.

Which begs the next question: Where did Dooku come from? Was he also "evil" during the time of TPM? If so, then how does that jive with the "there can only be two" thing? So Palps remains "clean" (of the Force stuff himself), he picks up another bad guy to go out and do the dirty work. But Dooku is old and the suggestion is that Anakin is his offspring. So Dooku would have had to shag Shmi up about 10 years prior to TPM. The order for the clones (presumably from Dooku?) would have come in when Ani was about 10 or 11, which means that Dooku was a bad guy some 20 years before AOTC. But Maul is also a bad guy during that time. The ONLY logical conclusion is that during the Prequels Palpatine is NEVER a Sith! During TPM, the "two" are Dooku and Maul. During AOTC, there is only one: Dooku. Palpatine is eyeing Skywalker to fill that gap. Once he does in AOTC, Palps is free to have Anakin kill Dooku so that he (Palpatine) can begin his own training as a Force user. So during the OT films, the "two" are Palps and Vader...the unexpected then happens when from out of nowhere, it turns out that a young rash horny Anakin produced some offspring which were cleverly hidden by Obi Wan. This immediately gets Palpatine nervous as he figured that he had manipulated the situation perfectly to keep himself in power (with just enough Force ability to do it) and Vader under his thumb (because he stroked his young ego). But now there is another potential Force User out there who will have a natural "allegiance" to Darth Vader. The Emperor has every reason to be scared and begins a campaign of power reinforcement by saying things to Vader like, "I have foreseen it." All complete B**lsh** of course on his part, but because Vader is caught under the spell, he believes it. But he's not so much a puppet because Vader himself envisions a future wherein Luke is at his side and the two of them stage a coup.

The problem though is in turning Luke to the darkside. Can he do it? The Emperor knows that if Vader is successful, he (Palps) is doomed. But the unexpected happens again! Luke takes Vader down. The Emperor couldn't be more elated. Now that troublesome Anakin can be disposed of...except that Luke still refuses to turn. What a stubborn dolt he is! :mad: "Okay, fine," the Emperor says to himself. "I'll kill the kid off and keep Vader around a while longer." But Palpatine only had limited Force ability at this point and couldn't control it. So when the change happens in Anakin and he sees the light, Palpatine doesn't have the power to save himself while Vader does him in. Palps never had to use the Force to get what he wanted because subtle politics and ego stroking always worked for him before. The one time he does invoke the Force, it is his undoing.


Now, to be realistic, I don't think that Lucas really had this kind of scenario in mind. This is something that I've pulled directly from the films themselves. Except for a minor gap in the "two" rule (when Dooku is the only one), the rest seems to ENTIRELY explain away any inconsistencies regarding who knew what and when and why things end up the way they do. And it all rests on the idea that Palpatine is NOT a Force user until after Vader is born. To date, there is NO evidence to suggest that this idea is outright wrong, but admittedly, it takes a bit of conjecture and reasoning skills to make it happen.

Thoughts? Discuss...

Jon
10-04-2004, 07:24 PM
Stilla,

That is a darn good conclusion on your part. I am relatively quiet in here and I enjoy reading the banter between pro and anti prequel supporters. I usually come down on the side of the prequels are okay, they are not watched as much by me as the OT but you're little story there is quite good. In fact I think that would only increase the strong character of Palpatine.

Good idea.

Phantom-like Menace
10-05-2004, 04:11 PM
It seems far easier to assume that the Jedi cannot sense that Palpatine is a Force user. Mace says it himself that their ability to use the Force has diminished. Yoda says only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of their weakness, likely because he's causing it. The series of events seems to plainly suggest Sidious (alter ego of Palpatine) and Maul were the two Sith in Episode I, but at that same time Dooku was skirting closer to Dark Side teachings than he should be. Maul got killed, Sidious recruited Dooku because Anakin was too young, and too innocent still. Palpatine now notices Anakin is neither young nor innocent now, so he's thinking he'd make a better apprentice than that octogenarian Dooku, so he has Anakin kill Dooku and take his place. Obi-Wan nearly kills Anakin, but he survives in the form of the machine/man Darth Vader and Palpatine realizes Luke would make a better apprentice than Vader, so he tries to get Luke to kill Vader.

As for Palpatine's using politics instead of the Force, well Sith have been in hiding and using the Dark Side for one thousand years; it hasn't done them any good. Palpatine is almost certainly the first Sith to be elected Chancellor and certainly the first to realize one of the most ironic empires ever conceived, ironic because the primary reason he comes to power is because the Republic has been so peaceful they don't really have a military, so he can knock over the ant hill by stirring up the Trade Federation et al., raise an army completely devoted to him, and declare himself Emperor. I can imagine he uses old Sith mind tricks to pursuade those around him, but largely his power does come from politics, though it's possible he was looking toward politics when the previous Sith master found him.

Sidious' plan all along seems to have been to stir up the Trade Federation to attack the planet he represents so he could get a sympathy vote to the chancellorship, use his position as chancellor to declare war on the Confederation, so he could raise an army totally loyal to him and accomplish what no other Sith before him as done in two thousand years: smash the Jedi once and for all.

I suspect he would have been more than happy to accomplish this with Maul as his right hand man, but Obi-Wan killed Maul, so he replaced him with the convenient Dooku, but he's old, probably older than Sidious, so he wants Anakin to take him out and then be his right hand man.

Anakin seems to have come out of nowhere, a total wild card no one expected but Qui-Gon found. He most likely was conceived by a union between Shmi and midichlorians.

Finally, I don't think of Anakin's virgin birth in purely Christian terms. Hercules was born in a union between a mortal woman and Zeus, and many other Greek heroes and characters were born of similar unions. I'm sure there are other religions with similar characters. I'd say more specifically about Jesus' conception but I would either be skirting the rules on discussing religion or just crossing it. Suffice it to say, Anakin's birth doesn't have to reference Christianity.

stillakid
10-05-2004, 09:04 PM
It seems far easier to assume that the Jedi cannot sense that Palpatine is a Force user. Mace says it himself that their ability to use the Force has diminished. Yoda says only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of their weakness, likely because he's causing it. The series of events seems to plainly suggest Sidious (alter ego of Palpatine) and Maul were the two Sith in Episode I, but at that same time Dooku was skirting closer to Dark Side teachings than he should be. Maul got killed, Sidious recruited Dooku because Anakin was too young, and too innocent still. Palpatine now notices Anakin is neither young nor innocent now, so he's thinking he'd make a better apprentice than that octogenarian Dooku, so he has Anakin kill Dooku and take his place. Obi-Wan nearly kills Anakin, but he survives in the form of the machine/man Darth Vader and Palpatine realizes Luke would make a better apprentice than Vader, so he tries to get Luke to kill Vader.

As for Palpatine's using politics instead of the Force, well Sith have been in hiding and using the Dark Side for one thousand years; it hasn't done them any good. Palpatine is almost certainly the first Sith to be elected Chancellor and certainly the first to realize one of the most ironic empires ever conceived, ironic because the primary reason he comes to power is because the Republic has been so peaceful they don't really have a military, so he can knock over the ant hill by stirring up the Trade Federation et al., raise an army completely devoted to him, and declare himself Emperor. I can imagine he uses old Sith mind tricks to pursuade those around him, but largely his power does come from politics, though it's possible he was looking toward politics when the previous Sith master found him.

Sidious' plan all along seems to have been to stir up the Trade Federation to attack the planet he represents so he could get a sympathy vote to the chancellorship, use his position as chancellor to declare war on the Confederation, so he could raise an army totally loyal to him and accomplish what no other Sith before him as done in two thousand years: smash the Jedi once and for all.

I suspect he would have been more than happy to accomplish this with Maul as his right hand man, but Obi-Wan killed Maul, so he replaced him with the convenient Dooku, but he's old, probably older than Sidious, so he wants Anakin to take him out and then be his right hand man.

Anakin seems to have come out of nowhere, a total wild card no one expected but Qui-Gon found. He most likely was conceived by a union between Shmi and midichlorians.

Finally, I don't think of Anakin's virgin birth in purely Christian terms. Hercules was born in a union between a mortal woman and Zeus, and many other Greek heroes and characters were born of similar unions. I'm sure there are other religions with similar characters. I'd say more specifically about Jesus' conception but I would either be skirting the rules on discussing religion or just crossing it. Suffice it to say, Anakin's birth doesn't have to reference Christianity.

For the record, I believe that your explanation above is precisely what Lucas has in mind. However, I derived my concept as an anwer to several conflicts which arise from the scenario you describe. So while your explanation is no doubt the "canon" one, because it doesn't really work upon closer examination, my idea is the next best thing. At the very least, it allows me to view the storyline in a more favorable light. :D

Sebulba_Fett
10-05-2004, 10:28 PM
Ok, if we're to go out on a limb here and say that Dooku is Anakin's father, and that Anakin goes psycho on the rest of the Jedi for not telling him, then we must assume that Yoda and/or Obi-Wan also knew and were part of the conspiracy. Or at the very least knew shortly after and saw Anakin's reaction to that information.

Now flash forward to the OT and both Obi-Wan and Yoda fail to mention to Luke that Darth Vader is his father, at the same time they are training him to take Vader out. Now why in the world would they make the same mistake twice. Especially considering this type of knowledge caused Anakin to fall to the Dark Side in the first place. There is no way they would risk that again, especially with the "last" jedi.

My thoughts are that Dooku is not Anakin's father. The repeating theme is going to be Anakin takes out Palpatine's apprentice in order to take his place, just as Palpatine goads Luke into doing in ROTJ. Anakin's father may very well be revealed. I think it has been hinted at that loose end will be resolved, but his father will not be the Count. I think it much more likely that Qui-Gon could have been Anakin's father. But that's for another thread.

VexarDave
10-07-2004, 10:18 PM
What's up everybody! Long time reader, first time poster. This thread blew me away. Unfortunately, I don't think Lucas is smart enough to have planned this from the start. Lucas is very basic, but Tycho's theory is amazing nonetheless.

So, say maybe Shmi belonged to Count Dooku. He's a count, probably had money, so he maybe had a few slaves. Dooku probably prefers a more decadant lifestyle and has never fully agreed with the Jedi lifestyle. One night he's a little lonely and decides to pop one of the slaves. The slave comes up pregnant. Ooops. So he Force wipes her memory of the encounter and sells her to a Hutt on a backwater planet to get rid of her.
Dooku is disgruntled with the Jedis. He stays around because of Qui-Gon. When Qui-Gon is killed, he has no reason to hang around these upity Jedis. Palpatine knows of Dooku through his position as Chancelor. Maul is dead and Palpatine needs a new aprentice. Palpatine seeks Dooku out when he hears he left the Jedi Order.
Somehow Palpatine figures out Anakin is Dooku's son and reveals it after the death blow. The Jedis don't know, but Palpatine convinces Anikin they did. Anakin freaks out.

tagmac
10-07-2004, 10:59 PM
I always thought Ric Olie looked shifty. lol

Well, before he got that gig as the Queen's pilot, he was a little strange, as he needed to find "enough brown m&m's to fill a brandy glass, or Ozzy wouldn't go on stage...." :D

Tycho
10-08-2004, 12:38 AM
C-3PO will be the only character to have a memory wipe. That's why he doesn't remember Tatooine - and Owen last saw the protocal droid with junk coverings and 3PO doesn't tell him his name during the purchase of the droids scene, so Owen doesn't think it's the exact droid.

Shmi will NOT have any need of a memory wipe.

Qui-Gon is NOT Anakin's father.

Dooku made a mistake with Shmi, but he did not abuse her or even own her. My guess is that he provided for her to be sent away, but things got messed up and she ended up enslaved and he couldn't do anything about it as a Jedi without raising suspicion at the moment. He possibly hired Aurra Sing to protect them since she was on Tatooine working for the Hutts and an ex-Jedi like Dooku was.

I think Dooku sought out Palpatine. I think he was disgruntled with the Jedi's reaction to the Sith and also wanted to eliminate them in order to protect his son he knew was now being raised as a Jedi. He also was not to interfere, as the Council already knew he'd crossed the line once from the paternity test they got out of Anakin's midichlorian examination.

So I think that Dooku hatched a plan with Mace (unbeknownst to Yoda) to infiltrate the Sith, and as part of his earning Palpatine's trust, he recruited Jango Fett and arranged for the Clones - possibly because he killed Sypho Dyas, Palpatine's 2nd Apprentice, and Dooku thus became his third.

However, the Dark Side made Dooku compromise too much and he became evil at Geonosis. He just doesn't see it.

Meanwhile, the other possibility for Sypho Dyas is that he was a Jedi. At some point, the Sith Master contacted him and began training him in the forbidden Dark Side. He was pursuaded that the Senate was corrupt, and his Master had him secretly ask the Jedi Council, if a Jedi could be infiltrated into the Senate to help straighten things out. The Jedi Council agreed, and Sypho Dyas' death was faked. Sypho Dyas then went to Naboo and took on the name Palpatine and ran for the Senate after establishing himself in local politics. Once he was in the Senate, he appeared as Darth Sidious to the Trade Federation and helped manufacture his rise to power. He probably had Darth Maul kill the Sith Master who trained him - or he did it himself. As a Jedi he'd taken the baby Iridonian from his parents who believed Maul was to be raised as a Jedi - little did they know... Meanwhile, the Jedi know about Palpatine's Force ability because the High Council knows he is Sypho Dyas. But they didn't know he was also the Dark Lord of the Sith, and even if they do suspect, they can't remove him from power without admitting to the galaxy that the Jedi had infiltrated the Senate illegally and were messing with galactic democracy. Now Palpatine is chancellor, so even if the Jedi don't know he's a Sith, they can't mess with him because he is above Jedi authority so long as he remains the Chancellor.

When Mace decides enough is enough, Palpatine kills him with the aide of Anakin who turns to the Dark Side because he learns that Mace knew Dooku was his father all along.

Obi-Wan knows none of this because he's just a Knight and is given these facts on a need-to-know-basis and so as to not distract Anakin's training, he did NOT need to know.

Anakin is NOT the Chosen One - there is no such thing for real. But Obi-Wan does not need to know that so that he never lets up on doing his very best to train Anakin.

I'd take things in this direction if I were Lucas anyway - or maybe I'm just a better writer :D

Elliejabbapop
10-08-2004, 07:50 AM
What's up everybody! Long time reader, first time poster.
Welcome friend :D

stillakid
10-08-2004, 08:08 AM
I'd take things in this direction if I were Lucas anyway - or maybe I'm just a better writer :D


Well.... they do say that you should write to please yourself. ;)

To each his own. I don't think it works at all, but I think the situation we have here is that the Saga is so discomboblated at this point that, similar to the Bible, we are left on our own to interpret it in anyway that serves us best and makes us happy. :D


EDIT: You know, I thought about this later and realized that I didn't word this correctly. What I meant to say was "well, who isn't?" as in "who isn't a better writer than GL? I guess this goes to show how writing can go bad if the little details are ignored. My bad. Sorry! :nerv:

RussUAE
10-11-2004, 05:56 AM
Phew, not posted on here for a longo time.

But it seems to me you're all forgetting one key Character - responsible for the birth of the Empire...

Jar Jar - Now it is more than possible that Jar Jar does (or doesn't do) something which sends Anakin over the edge, after all, we've all been there!

billfremore
10-13-2004, 12:39 PM
Well first off, if he was really a Force user throughout TPM and AOTC, the Jedi surely would have "felt" his presence anytime they stood near him. There is evidence of this occurring during ANH when Old Ben is hiding out inside the Falcon and Vader senses his old master. That is just one example amongst many. So right there, it is clear that Palpatine is not a Force user himself.


I just gotta throw my pennies in here :D

Did Mace not say in TPM that he did not believe the Sith could have returned without them (the Jedi Council) knowing it?

Meanwhile on the same planet you've got Darths Sidious and Maul trapsing around Coruscant yakking it up on balconies.

And if you'll notice in AOTC Yoda comments on how a lot of the Jedi, even older more experienced ones are too sure of their skills and act quite arrogant.

Mace also commented in AOTC to Yoda that the Jedi's ability to use the force had diminished and did not want the council to know.

My point is I believe that Palpy is a mongo huge force user, a Sith Lord.

I think what old Georgy boy has been conveying is that the Jedi have become complacent and weaker, so maybe other Jedi like the Sith can hide themselves in the background noise of the Force or even mask themselves so that their presence seems only like static or even bad sushi to a Jedi.

I think that what GL has been telling us is that the Jedi will fall because the majority of them thought they were either untouchable or nothing could seriously threaten them or their way of life.

Along comes Palpatine and takes advantage of this situation and through his machinations makes himself Emperor of the controlling force in the galaxy.

Ironically enough the same thing seems to lead to his downfall as well. He seems pretty arrogant in ROTJ and I'm sure got a huge surprise when he got shot putted by Vader, and his "legion of best troops" got their butts kicked by cute and cuddly marketing ploys.



On the actual topic at hand I think that GL's comments can be interpreted many way but I think what he says is not clear enough to make what he says a fact.

stillakid
10-14-2004, 11:16 AM
Bill, I'm going to come right out and say that I agree with you. Your post most likely sums up precisely what GL thinks he wrote and is most likely the way it will all play out.

My concept (about Palps not being a Force user, et al) is a comprehesive evaluation of what is actually onscreen and provides, in my opinion, the most accurate conclusion based on all the facts. As I've experienced myself, sometimes there is a gap between what you intend to say and what you actually write leading to something entirely different.

That said, here's how I see the points you bring up:



Did Mace not say in TPM that he did not believe the Sith could have returned without them (the Jedi Council) knowing it?
...........
Meanwhile on the same planet you've got Darths Sidious and Maul trapsing around Coruscant yakking it up on balconies.
Right. But we also have Obi Wan at the very beginning of the movie saying that he senses something wrong. I can't explain why one Jedi can sense a bad guy (Force user) while another can't, it's clear that at least one (Obi Wan) did. I am using that as my support for my theory. :)



And if you'll notice in AOTC Yoda comments on how a lot of the Jedi, even older more experienced ones are too sure of their skills and act quite arrogant.

Mace also commented in AOTC to Yoda that the Jedi's ability to use the force had diminished and did not want the council to know.
While Yoda may have a valid comment, it may be mutually exclusive of the comment Mace makes. When Mace says that statement, he's going on the assumption that the bad guy who had taken over the Senate was a Force user. In fact, he has no idea if Dooku's information was even correct. Mace assumes everything here with nothing at all to back it up. So when he decides that a Sith must be in control and running rampant and that the Jedi haven't picked him up on the radar, he naturally assumes that some sort of nefarious "blocking" or something must be going on. He doesn't consider the other possibility that this "bad guy" isn't a Force user at all therefore there would be nothing to detect.


My point is I believe that Palpy is a mongo huge force user, a Sith Lord.

I think what old Georgy boy has been conveying is that the Jedi have become complacent and weaker, so maybe other Jedi like the Sith can hide themselves in the background noise of the Force or even mask themselves so that their presence seems only like static or even bad sushi to a Jedi.
Yeah, background noise. Maybe. Again, the large variety of circumstantial evidence throughout the saga doesn't fully support the conclusion. But what you say is probably what GL intended even thought that's not what is actual there.


I think that what GL has been telling us is that the Jedi will fall because the majority of them thought they were either untouchable or nothing could seriously threaten them or their way of life.
Probably, but GL never really showed the Jedi acting "arrogant" or "untouchable" therefore making that goal sort of an after-thought.


Along comes Palpatine and takes advantage of this situation and through his machinations makes himself Emperor of the controlling force in the galaxy.
Machinations...exactly. As we've seen from PT scenes on their own, Palpatine just flat out hasn't had any need to use the Force to accomplish anything yet. He relies on the stupidity and naivite of other people to do what he pushes them to do (ie, Jar Jar). And in my mind, for a filmmaker trying to make the point of how a government could easily take over a population, it seems to be more effective to do it in a way that doesn't rely on magic to get there. Simply showing us (the audience) that unless we remain alert to the big picture and how easily we could be manipulated, we could be "taken over" just as easily as this fictional world.

mrpauldeeds
10-14-2004, 03:48 PM
Dooku made a mistake with Shmi
in TPM shimi tells qui gon there was no father, she has to be lying to qui gon right? or was her memory erased or something like that. i dont know whyy shimi would lie about there being no father unless she knew something. and what i dont know. there is also the possibility that dooku is not the father, that anakins father is some totally new charector we have not met, like syfo dias. but isnt it also rumord that syfo dias is the emperor or grievous or someone?? wow this is way to complicated. by the time we figure out who the father is (100% sure) ROTS will be in theaters.

scruffziller
01-10-2005, 08:11 AM
Finally watched it with commentary. What Lucas says is that Luke needing to kill Vader(who is his father) to become Palpy's apprentice is "SIMILAR" to what happens in EPS III. It doesn't confirm anything except that Anikin kills Palpy's apprentice to become Palp's apprentice. Folks are getting the words mixed up with Lucas saying that Vader is Luke's father and conjoining that that is EXACTLY what happens in EPS III. Misread.

Tycho
01-10-2005, 06:34 PM
Scrufillizer,

I see where you are coming from and it could be that you are right.

I hope that Dooku is Anakin's dad and perhaps my interpretation is clouded by my wishes.

Why do I wish this?

1) It makes Anakin's turn to the Dark Side much more rational and the plot much more deeper for the movie's sake. I will truly be disappointed if the movie doesn't go in this direction:

a) Anakin wants to save his Mom, Padme, then Obi-Wan - he's all about attachments and family. Then he suddenly finds out that HIS misinformation let the Jedi use him to kill his own father? That'd throw me off the deep end too.

b) Shmi lets her 9 year old son go away with someone who could be Michael Jackson on MidiChlorians for all she knows. Or does she? If she hooked up with Dooku 9 years prior to Qui-Gon's trip to Tatooine, Qui-Gon would have been about 51 and long since departed from Dooku. Yet Dooku could have told her about him, and if so, that makes Qui-Gon like Anakin's very-older older step-brother, so who better than to look out for him, but his own family? Qui-Gon just didn't know it, because it would disgrace Dooku - the reason Anakin keeps Padme's pregnancy secret.

c) since it's dangerous for a Jedi to have a family, (Ki-Adi Mundi explained in a comic that his were killed, yet he shed no emotion for the loss of his wives and daughters), the Jedi, if the Council were aware by midichlorian tests, that Anakin was Dooku's son, would not reveal this, for both Dooku's and especially Anakin's protection

2) It gets rid of that ridiculous immaculate conception crap. The midichlorians are mitochondria that are mutated to resonate with the molecular adhesion of the universe. So those who can readily identify and separate their own cellular connection to objects in their universe, are what is called "Force-sensitive." Midichlorians are not intelligent life. Though I still suppose they can in weird mutative variations, conceive a child if they react to an imbalance in the Force. That's all sort of weird. But they are not intelligent. Qui-Gon telling Anakin that "if you listen, you will hear them TALKING to you," was figurative speaking to illustrate the concept to a 9 year old child - nothing more (in my opinion of course).

3) All of this is more incentive for Anakin to want revenge against the Jedi (for tricking him into killing his own father, on top of denying him the right to raise his own child and keep a wife - especially a Republic Senator - and for not allowing him to change his mother's life circumstances earlier). More incentive than Anakin just getting mad because the Jedi won't send him after Grievous and pick Obi-Wan instead - after Anakin killed Dooku.

Kyle Katarn
01-10-2005, 06:50 PM
I doubt it, I don't think we see Anakin killing his dad...but if Dooku is his dad, we'll get a BIG surprise.

Tycho
01-10-2005, 07:07 PM
Yeah, remember, IF MY THEORY IS WHAT HAPPENS, when Anakin kills his Dad, he doesn't know it's his Dad.

Since Palpatine is there, Dooku doesn't say anything, perhaps to protect his son's identity - because if Dooku is Anakin's dad, I think Dooku knows it.

Would it be worse if BOTH Anakin and Dooku didn't know they were related?

Next, if it is revealed that I am right, how do you think it would happen?

I think that it would happen as Palpatine is battering down Mace.

Palpatine will tell Anakin when he wants Anakin to join in the fight. The Sith DO tell the truth (Vader to Luke, Dooku to Obi-Wan, etc.)

Mace will probably reveal to Anakin that he knew this, but Anakin was not ready to (Like Yoda to Luke).

Anakin will not listen to reason, so upset that the Jedi allowed him to murder his own father, and Anakin will prove Mace was right not to tell him. It will be the last thing Mace does.


Things necessary to happen for this:

1) They filmed the fight with different dialogue.
2) Sam Jackson, Hayden Christiansen, Ian McDiarmid, and Ben Burtt do the audio dubbing
3) During the movie, while Mace is speaking the unthinkable, the camera focuses on Anakin's reaction, so you don't have to have Sam Jackson's lips synced to something he didn't say when a crew and a secret between more than 4-5 people was required.

They can make this change the day before they copy all the movies for release and distribution. It takes no extra effort but the actors speaking the words and Hayden yelling "NOOOOoooooo!" - which I'm sure was already filmed.

Croaker
01-14-2005, 06:56 AM
What do you have to say about this Tycho?

From Vanity Fair:
On Anakin's birth: "It was a virgin birth in an ecosystem relationship. It means that between the Force, which is sort of a life force, and reality, the connectors between these two things are what we call midichlorians (spelt 'mitichlorians' in the article). They're kind of based on mitochondria, which are a completely different species, a different animal, that live inside every single cell and all it to life, allow it reproduce, allow life to exist. They also, in their own way, communicate with the Force itself. They more you havem the more your cells are able to speak intuitively to the Force itself and use the powers of the Force. Ultimately, I would say the Force itself created Anakin. I don't want to get into specific terms of labeling things to make it one religion or another, but, basically, that's one of the foundations of the hero's journey."

Tycho
01-14-2005, 11:52 AM
What do you have to say about this Tycho?



A very important aspect to Episode 3 sucks already. :(

Anakin would be a much better character if he had found out his life was a lie and he had just killed his own father - and the Jedi allowed it. It would also make him a step further into "ordinary." Why didn't the midichlorians immaculately conceive a Duro, or a Gotal? Why was it a human?

There is no such thing as immaculate conception. There never was. Naturally, there never will be. (Though today someone can invitro-fertilize a virgin and start another religion :rolleyes: )

stillakid
01-15-2005, 12:57 PM
A very important aspect to Episode 3 sucks already. :(

Anakin would be a much better character if he had found out his life was a lie and he had just killed his own father - and the Jedi allowed it. It would also make him a step further into "ordinary." Why didn't the midichlorians immaculately conceive a Duro, or a Gotal? Why was it a human?

There is no such thing as immaculate conception. There never was. Naturally, there never will be. (Though today someone can invitro-fertilize a virgin and start another religion :rolleyes: )


See! I told you not to get your hopes up. ;)

Elliejabbapop
01-16-2005, 05:04 AM
There is no such thing as immaculate conception. There never was. Naturally, there never will be. (Though today someone can invitro-fertilize a virgin and start another religion :rolleyes: )

Be careful, some people, such as myself, are religious. Arguing about religion can become pretty nasty, you should have more respect for people who don't think as you do, it's offensive. Maybe George believes as well, not because of that the movie "sucks". Beware of prejudice.

Tycho
01-16-2005, 11:05 AM
Sorry about that. I didn't mean to offend people religiously (earth-religions) in this thread. But I do get pretty argumentative about religion (and politics) - that's what I do in life and professional work even as I pursue social justice. I don't disrespect others' earth-religion views, yet what about people's respect for my interests in learning and science?

That point's important because I want to reel this in to Star Wars before our over-mods get jumpy that they have to edit everything every 5 minutes or they aren't doing a good job (or think I'm on a warpath rampage now - which I'm not).

In Star Wars:

1) first the Force was mythical

2) next there were midichlorians, which were at best undefined, but never presumed sentient. - By the way, if the midichlorians can detect an imbalance in the Force in the whole universe (ie the Sith rising thing), why can't Jedi move planets or objects on ships across the galaxy? Why do they have to be close? If I were a Jedi, my lightsaber would be an intimate object to me. If I were captured and I couldn't see it, I should then still be able to activate it, use it, and control it in the Force, even call it to another planet if the midis were that well-connected.

3) So there's no proof that midis can detect an imbalance in the Force when a Sith is on another planet as far from Tatooine as possible (true - Tatooine was not Anakin's birthplace - and there might be more to it yet.)

4) So again, why didn't the midichlorians immaculately conceive a Duro, or a Gotal? Why was it a human? Why did the midis do this 9 years prior to TPM when the Sith were shrouded? There'd been 2 Sith for 1000 years! Why conceive a child of a virgin now?


As to any non-Star Wars discussion, Elliejabbapop, I would welcome a discussion with you in the Rancor Pit forum, this site's answer to finding the truth in the universe that is cyberspace.

Elliejabbapop
01-16-2005, 12:54 PM
I don't want to start a fight, that's the last thing I'm thinking of, I respect your views, all I ask is that you respect mine. :)
BTW I think George pretty much believes in fate, maybe that's why there are these "coincidences". :)

2-1B
02-17-2008, 12:07 PM
I don't want to start a fight, that's the last thing I'm thinking of, I respect your views

I respect his views, too (except for the one about Anakin killing his father). :thumbsup:

JediTricks
02-17-2008, 03:36 PM
Too bad this thread's title is so long or I'd add "DEAD WRONG AGAIN:" to the front. :D

darthvyn
02-21-2008, 12:23 PM
i'm just surprised it doesn't say "for the idiots" at the end...