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Darkross
11-01-2004, 07:50 PM
Maybe it is just me...but I feel as if the release of the OT on DVD was rushed...even though they announced it nearly 10 months before its actual release and here's what I found disappointing about all 3 movies:

ANH
1. Greedo / Han scene...too choppy and awkward
2. Luke's lightsaber is still white, ignites instantly and shut off instantly...and in some scenes is blue, others white, and others hint of green...maybe the guy doing the compositing was colored blind ???
3. I've always hated the flashes from when the lightsabers clashed and when the Tantive IV is taking hits from the pursuing Star Destroyer...makes it hard on the eyes...surely they could have cleaned these up.
4. Colour of the film looks faint...not as clean as SE version.
5. Han / Jabba scene still could look better...the dialog is awkward and repetitive from Han / Greedo scene.

ESB

1. Where are the deleted scenes?
2. How come Luke's snowspeeder is transparent again? Didn't they fix that whole "matt line scene" with seeing the AT-AT through his cockpit in SE (you betcha...but looks like they forgot to fix it for the DVD)!. That bugs me BIG TIME!
3. I hate the fact that they changed Boba's voice (not needed).
4. The Emperor's dialog is dumb and doesn't fit with the opening crawl of the film...why would Darth Vader be Obsessed with finding Luke Skywalker if he didn't know he was the one who destroyed the DeathStar and his offspring? He doesn't need the Emperor to tell him that...that whole scene is really out of place.
5. The Emperor does look better than the old woman previously used...but still looks weird.
6. You can still see the tie fighter matt lines (transparency cut-outs) around them.

JEDI
1. X-wing / Tie-Fighter explosions look too cartoonish now...colour looks less life-like...especially when the one x-wing gets blown up while inside the DeathStar.
2. Could care less if Hayden was at the end or not.
3. Could care less if Anakin still had eyebrows or not.
4. Where are the delete scenes? What happened to the Sandstorm scene?
5. Why couldn't they have fixed the flipped frame in Luke's speederbike chase scene...where his glove is on his left hand instead of his right?
6. I still hate the whole Jabba Dancer's routine!
7. Tie fighters still come out of nowhere.

BONUS MATERIAL
1. Where are the deleted scenes? Wampa Attack, C3P0 ripping sign off Wampa door, Sandstorm (Jedi), Biggs and Luke on Tatooine?
2. Where are the other documentaries on the Trilogy (SPFX The Making of the Empire Strikes Back, and From Star Wars to Jedi...the Making of a Saga)?
3. Where are ALL of the behind the scenes photos from the films?
4. Where are the props pictures, set blue prints and the rest of the concept drawings etc...
5. Where are all three of the SE trailers? There's only the one (combined) trailer.

WHAT I LIKED
1. The story...and always will
2. ESB the Carbon Chamber is alot brighter and whiter (especially scene where the Stormtroopers grab Han away from Leia and put him into position to be lowered.
3. Director's commentary (especially ESB with Irvin Kershner and GL).
4. Thank you George for finally explaining the Cave sequence.
5. ESB the rank insignia's are finally corrected at the end of the film.
6. Removing Luke screaming when he falls.
7. That we finally have the Trilogy on DVD.

Exhaust Port
11-01-2004, 09:02 PM
I think you are 100% right. With all this issues still outstanding I think we will be seeing at least 1 more SW DVD collection release in the future.

Rocketboy
11-01-2004, 09:25 PM
4. The Emperor's dialog is dumb and doesn't fit with the opening crawl of the film...why would Darth Vader be Obsessed with finding Luke Skywalker if he didn't know he was the one who destroyed the DeathStar and his offspring? He doesn't need the Emperor to tell him that...that whole scene is really out of place.
Vader knows about Luke, it appears the Emperor is the one who has just discovered it.
Vader even says "That's it! The Rebels are there and I'm sure Skywalker is with them" (or someting to that effect) when the Empire discovers the Hoth base.

James Boba Fettfield
11-01-2004, 09:28 PM
I think we will be seeing at least 1 more SW DVD collection release in the future.

Only one? :D

Kidhuman
11-01-2004, 09:54 PM
The fact that they did not include the Original versions with it

Exhaust Port
11-01-2004, 09:54 PM
Probably more like 1 every 5 years for the rest of time. :)

stillakid
11-01-2004, 10:54 PM
I'm happy with them...oh yeah, see I bought the ORIGINAL movies on DVD, not these abominations which are masquerading as the originals. :D

Devo
11-02-2004, 10:30 AM
Damn I hadn't noticed the transparent snowspeeder cockpit, are you serious, has anyone else noticed that?

I was mainly disappointed with the decision to go with the same format as the Indiana Jones box set because I knew when that was announced that we weren't going to get half of the extras we were hoping for and sure enough we didn't.

Also I hate the new Hayden ending and his inappropriate rapist leer from the David Boreanaz as Angelus in Buffy season2 school of acting.

evenflow
11-02-2004, 12:53 PM
I just hate the Han/Greedo, the Hayden in ROTJ, and the lack of deleted scenes.

Mad Slanted Powers
11-26-2004, 07:29 PM
Vader knows about Luke, it appears the Emperor is the one who has just discovered it.
Vader even says "That's it! The Rebels are there and I'm sure Skywalker is with them" (or someting to that effect) when the Empire discovers the Hoth base.

This scene seemed wrong at first to me as well. I think you are right though. Vader probably did know, but perhaps was trying to hide the fact.

Mad Slanted Powers
11-26-2004, 07:31 PM
I still wish they would put back the line from ESB - "You're lucky you don't taste very good."

Rocketboy
11-26-2004, 09:30 PM
I still wish they would put back the line from ESB - "You're lucky you don't taste very good."That was the one change I didn't notice for a few years (until it was pointed out to me). I'm still wondering why it was changed (as well as Han's "Trust me," which sounded a lot better).

Mad Slanted Powers
11-27-2004, 02:23 AM
That was the one change I didn't notice for a few years (until it was pointed out to me). I'm still wondering why it was changed (as well as Han's "Trust me," which sounded a lot better).

It seems that I heard it was one of those things where they had more than one mix, and the line I mentioned ended up being in the one used for the earlier VHS versions. Kind of like the "Close the blast doors line". I used to listen to a audio cassette Story of Star Wars that was basically an abridged version of the movie narrated by Roscoe Lee Browne. It had "Close the blast doors", but that line isn't on the VHS. It was later put back in.

Rocketboy
11-27-2004, 05:20 PM
It seems that I heard it was one of those things where they had more than one mix, and the line I mentioned ended up being in the one used for the earlier VHS versions. Kind of like the "Close the blast doors line". I used to listen to a audio cassette Story of Star Wars that was basically an abridged version of the movie narrated by Roscoe Lee Browne. It had "Close the blast doors", but that line isn't on the VHS. It was later put back in.Oh man, I still have that tape! It's awesome! I just wish that I had a tape deck in my car again...

Mad Slanted Powers
11-28-2004, 02:00 AM
Oh man, I still have that tape! It's awesome! I just wish that I had a tape deck in my car again...

Yes, I still have mine too. I only saw the movie once in the theater (drive-in actually because I missed it the first time around), so for a long time that tape was my only way to experience the movie. So, when I finally got to see the movie again, those parts that were not on the Story of Star Wars tape seemed fresh to me. I should listen to it again.

JON9000
12-08-2004, 04:35 PM
My biggest gripes are the dropping out of the score in certain areas of ANH and the lack of deleted scenes.

bigbarada
01-22-2005, 05:17 PM
I'm just really underwhelmed by this whole set.

I watched ANH the first day I bought it, then kind of sort of watched ESB while I was doing laundry and cleaning my room. I only watched the final scene of ROTJ and that's it..... I've had the set for two months and have absolutely no urge to watch any more.

In fact I'm considering selling the set back to the store (I bought it from Hastings) and at least getting a little bit of gas money out of it. :neutral:

Turambar
01-22-2005, 06:48 PM
I'm happy with them...oh yeah, see I bought the ORIGINAL movies on DVD, not these abominations which are masquerading as the originals. :D

Same here. I wouldn't drop a dime for these altered classics. And I'm very content.

CaptainSolo1138
01-27-2005, 10:54 AM
In fact I'm considering selling the set back to the store (I bought it from Hastings) and at least getting a little bit of gas money out of it. :neutral:
At least you got it! My whole family (both sides!) seemed to disregard the fact that not only was it on my Christmas list, but it was at the top and in capital letters! Now I've gotta spend my own money on it. C'mon, Pell Grant refund!

Imperial Monarche
02-15-2005, 02:06 PM
Vader knows about Luke, it appears the Emperor is the one who has just discovered it.
Vader even says "That's it! The Rebels are there and I'm sure Skywalker is with them" (or someting to that effect) when the Empire discovers the Hoth base.

My sentiments exactly. Vader is a Sith and if anyone bothers to listen to the commentary, Lucas explains that the real reason Vader wants to lure Luke to Bespin is to pursuade him to the dark side to help him destroy the Emperor and rule themselves. That's why he is obsessed with Luke. So, during the conversation between Vader and Palpatine, Vader just pretends like he doesn't know (and probably a little disappointed that Palpatine caught on that Luke was really born) so that Palpatine won't think that's he's been conspiring with himself to seduce Luke for his own purposes. Little does Vader know, though, that Palptine is thinking the same thing about Luke.

Getting back to the topic, I am still disappointed with Greedo shooting first (but who, besides GL and Lucasfilm, is not). I still think some of the saber effects need to be tweeked. I would have liked to have the deleted scenes either included or separate. Finally, the originals needed to be included. Other than that, stuff that was changed for story purposes, I'm fine with because I recognize it's not my story to tell but Lucas' and if he wants it, that's his perogative.

Everyone should know, though, that with stuff not fixed and things still needed to be tweeked, there will most definitely be other DVD sets. I'm guessing after ROTS comes out on DVD, like next spring, there will be an ultimate saga set where it all gets fixed. I'm also betting that around the same time, he will release the originals on DVD. Take that, stillakid.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-15-2005, 04:47 PM
Why do people still think he'll release the originals again? You think they were just kidding around in 1995 with the "For the last time" campaign? I don't. I doubt we'll ever see the originals again, though who knows, there've been bigger surprises in the past. I'm not banking on it though.

I also bet this is all we'll get on DVD (with ROTS and the third season of CW, though) then it's onto Blu-Ray or HD-DVD or whatever they choose to put it on next.

Rocketboy
02-15-2005, 09:23 PM
Why do people still think he'll release the originals again? You think they were just kidding around in 1995 with the "For the last time" campaign? I don't. I doubt we'll ever see the originals again, though who knows, there've been bigger surprises in the past. I'm not banking on it though.Lucas also said that there will be no Star Wars DVDs until after Episode III is released.
And we all know how that one turned out.

stillakid
02-15-2005, 11:46 PM
There is no way GL will ever put out the original original versions of the OT films. Not gonna happen ever. However, my prediction is that post ROTS, we'll see a SuperNifty version of the OT in which even more tweaking gets done to "tie the trilogies together." That'll happen within 24 months of the completion of ROTS. Then, inevitably, within the next 5 to 10 years, we'll see the entire saga remastered for HD, so we'll all be buying them all over again for our plasma screens. Whether he tweaks even more for those HD versions, only time will tell. I guess it depends on whether or not he realizes just how badly he f'd up the Prequels and whether or not he can put in some fixes without too much trouble.

chrisc
02-16-2005, 04:31 PM
I have noticed alot of arguement about the Greedo shoots first scene. Whats the big deal??? Does is Han Solo supposed to go by the rules of engagment?? Greedo got what he had coming. Also I love the DVD's I never bought a VCR and was unable to watch it until now.

El Chuxter
02-16-2005, 04:39 PM
The big deal is that Han originally shot Greedo without any concrete proof (aside from a threat, which for all we know could've been completely empty) that he was in real danger. Therefore the character grows throughout the saga.

Now he is a wuss who somehow gains the ability to teleport several inches to the side when in any danger.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-16-2005, 04:52 PM
The big deal is that Han originally shot Greedo without any concrete proof (aside from a threat, which for all we know could've been completely empty) that he was in real danger. Therefore the character grows throughout the saga.

Now he is a wuss who somehow gains the ability to teleport several inches to the side when in any danger.
Well, I think it looks a lot better on the DVDs, he no longer jerks a foot to the right. In the book Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina, it tells how Greedo is a kid who wound up with the wrong crowd and wanted to be a bounty hunter. He had very little experience in getting bounties before, so he was likely nervous. That could explain why he missed Han. Anyway, I think it's fine on the DVD as it is.

Rocketboy, about the DVDs being released in 2004, that's why I said "stranger things have happened."

Mad Slanted Powers
02-16-2005, 06:49 PM
The big deal is that Han originally shot Greedo without any concrete proof (aside from a threat, which for all we know could've been completely empty) that he was in real danger. Therefore the character grows throughout the saga.

Now he is a wuss who somehow gains the ability to teleport several inches to the side when in any danger.

I don't see that it makes him a wuss. It still shows him taking out his blaster so you can tell he is getting ready to shoot. It happens so close together that Han may have already decided to shoot by the time Greedo shot. The fact that he shot second and still survived makes it even more impressive. Now, as to how Greedo missed, that is a different story. Perhaps it is as said above by Mr. Jabba. Greedo is young and inexperienced, so it could have been a bad shot. Or, maybe Han kicked him under the table. Yeah, that's it! :)

Imperial Monarche
02-16-2005, 10:45 PM
I'm still banking on him putting out the original's on DVD one day, but not included as part of SW movies but as an homage to how his movies changed filmmaking. The original forms of the movies stand out as being spectacular in special effects for that time period and revolutionized how movies were made, so I think he will eventually rethink it and put them out to preserve the filmmaking aspect of those movies.

With that said, I think I have noticed that there are basically three types of SW fans: The fans that love the OT primarily on the fact of how they are classic movies because of how they changed filmmaking, there are the fans that love the movies for the story it tells and last, there is a mixture of both. I happen to fall into the both catagory because I recognize that the originals need preserved and Lucas needs to put them on DVD, and on the other hand, I love the DVD releases because I don't see the tweeks as messing up a classic but making the OT look better so the saga flows better visually. I have seen nothing that has changed the OT storyline so far, not even Greedo shooting first.

The ones that tend to complain about how they won't buy the OT because of the changes made to it I feel falls into the first catagory. I think you guys just see the OT as classic movies, nothing more, and find it horrendous that the artist modified his own masterpiece. I also think that's basically why the same people find the PT terrible because they nitpick at the small things like bad acting and unnecessary comedy relief when people like me look past that and watch it for the story, which I think is just as good as the OT. My personal opinion, of course.

2-1B
02-17-2005, 01:32 AM
The big deal is that Han originally shot Greedo without any concrete proof (aside from a threat, which for all we know could've been completely empty) that he was in real danger. Therefore the character grows throughout the saga.

Now he is a wuss who somehow gains the ability to teleport several inches to the side when in any danger.

See, I just can't agree because the guy had a gun in his face. To me, if somebody waves a gun in your face you are within your right to shoot him dead. Period. :D

For that reason, I don't think the OT alteration (while certainly looking bad cosmetically) really changes Han's character arc.

stillakid
02-17-2005, 08:54 AM
The ones that tend to complain about how they won't buy the OT because of the changes made to it I feel falls into the first catagory. I think you guys just see the OT as classic movies, nothing more, and find it horrendous that the artist modified his own masterpiece. I also think that's basically why the same people find the PT terrible because they nitpick at the small things like bad acting and unnecessary comedy relief when people like me look past that and watch it for the story, which I think is just as good as the OT. My personal opinion, of course.

"Small things" like acting? Um, okay. :sur:

But anyhow, had the stories of the PT been even remotely better, I'd be willing to look past a lot of the other problems. And actually, I do for the most part. In all my ranting, you'll find a scant moment or two when anything but the story comes up. The OT stories were fundamentally strong, so any perceived "small things" are easily ignored and/or forgiven. It's when a film is fundamentally flawed in the story that the audience tolerates the "small things" even less.

In the end though, I take issue with characterizing critique of bad acting etc as "nitpicking." It's simple critique and/or literary comprehension. To blindly accept such problems or to suggest that they are merely "small things" is to not recognize that every part of a motion picture is equally important.

Kidhuman
02-17-2005, 09:29 AM
The ones that tend to complain about how they won't buy the OT because of the changes made to it I feel falls into the first catagory. I think you guys just see the OT as classic movies, nothing more, and find it horrendous that the artist modified his own masterpiece. I also think that's basically why the same people find the PT terrible because they nitpick at the small things like bad acting and unnecessary comedy relief when people like me look past that and watch it for the story, which I think is just as good as the OT. My personal opinion, of course.



I am one that has not bought the DVD's because of the changes. I could deal with the tweaking of special effects like the saber duel, and the matte lines, but when you remove a character and change scenes around and add stuff to it that wasnt originally there, it becomes a weak. We all fell in love with Star Wars because of the way it was made and how we percieved it. By changing these things, you made a different movie. Taking Shaw out of the movie was over the line. Adding Ian in ito the OT is over the line. Who cares about continuity??? Who here will ever see them as 1-6 and not 4-6 and 1-3???? Not I, any itme I watch them will be 4-6, 1-3. Thats how the story makes sense, not this altered version that was released. It is not what I fell in love with. He gave the OT a boob job, thats it....

stillakid
02-17-2005, 11:29 AM
He gave the OT a boob job, thats it....


And it gets a big ol' double D as a grade. :D

Imperial Monarche
02-17-2005, 03:19 PM
Taking Shaw out of the movie was over the line. Adding Ian in ito the OT is over the line. Who cares about continuity??? Who here will ever see them as 1-6 and not 4-6 and 1-3???? Not I, any itme I watch them will be 4-6, 1-3. Thats how the story makes sense, not this altered version that was released. It is not what I fell in love with. He gave the OT a boob job, thats it....

Who cares about continuity????! What? That's the biggest bunch of BS I've ever heard. First you guys complain that Lucas is changing continuity in the PT like making Owen Lars Anakin's half brother and stuff like that, but when it comes to changing things in the OT to match, it's "Who cares if it matches?". What do you want? Shaw being removed did nothing but make it so that when Anakin turned to the dark side, that's where he died. He was still Vader when he died because he had done so much evil over the past 20 years that one good deed was not going to make up for it and return him back to a Jedi. It makes since that Hayden is the ghost form in the end. Besides, Shaw was still in the movie underneath the mask. That didn't change. And, adding Ian to ESB wasn't something that needed to be done as a result of the PT, it needed to be done when they casted Ian in ROTJ instead of the one that actually portrayed Palpatine as a hologram in ESB, even if that person was a woman. I can't stand to watch a sequal when a character's portrayer is changed, it looks ridiculous. Oh, and I do plan to watch it 1-6 because that's how generations from now will watch it. We may choose to watch it 4-6, then 1-3 because that's how we grew up, but in time it will be 1-6.

Kidhuman
02-17-2005, 05:20 PM
Yes, who cares about having Hayden in ROTJ???? He did not need to be there. Neither does Ian. And no Anakin did not die young, Luke saved him and he turned back to Anakin even if for that one brief momnet. Therefore it was not a needed "change", but only to make the "continuity" present. I am damn sure everyone who never saw ROTJ or even the OT for thatmatter could put 2 and 2 together and figure out who he was. The continuity was thrown out the window from the get-go with the mention of Midis.....That wasnt changed. And then all the stormtroopers having the same voice, nope. It was not the Trilogy that any of us fell in love with back in the day, so therefore I will refuse to acknowledge its existence.

stillakid
02-17-2005, 09:21 PM
Who cares about continuity????! What? That's the biggest bunch of BS I've ever heard. First you guys complain that Lucas is changing continuity in the PT like making Owen Lars Anakin's half brother and stuff like that, but when it comes to changing things in the OT to match, it's "Who cares if it matches?". What do you want? Shaw being removed did nothing but make it so that when Anakin turned to the dark side, that's where he died. He was still Vader when he died because he had done so much evil over the past 20 years that one good deed was not going to make up for it and return him back to a Jedi.

If that's what you think, then you missed the entire point of Luke's quest. "Saving" his father meant bringing him back from the brink. "Vader" cast Palpatine (the Devil) back down into the depths of "Hell" in an act of martyrdom to save his own son from death. That act did "forgive" all the bad that the Vader personae did and brought the "good man who was your father" back to life. That event is what Obi Wan refused to believe was possible. Yet Luke continued to believe in it and in the end put his own life on the line to prove it. And his father, Anakin, came back and proved him right. So therefore, the bi-polar brat incarnation that was Hayd-akin not only has no place in ROTJ for other reasons, but removing Sebastakin essentially negates all that Luke worked and suffered to achieve. Putting Hayd-akin in there was nothing but a blunt cheap stunt to "link the trilogies together." A stunt that auteur Lucas put very little thought into or else he would have realized all of this himself.




but in time it will be 1-6.
It can never be that way if only because the dramatic elements of the OT were written to be surprises et al. The Prequels pretty much ignore all the careful writing in order to give fan-boys the cheap vicarious thrills of seeing their favorite characters in action once again. For anyone who really cares about story, it will always be IV, V, VI, I, II, III.

2-1B
02-18-2005, 05:11 AM
I'm glad Hayden is in ROTJ. It's an unpopular opinion, but I stand by it. :)

Rocketboy
02-18-2005, 10:51 AM
I'm glad Hayden is in ROTJ. It's an unpopular opinion, but I stand by it. :)Doesn't matter to me.
It makes sense depending on how you view the "death of Anakin" situation.

Imperial Monarche
02-18-2005, 04:46 PM
If that's what you think, then you missed the entire point of Luke's quest. "Saving" his father meant bringing him back from the brink. "Vader" cast Palpatine (the Devil) back down into the depths of "Hell" in an act of martyrdom to save his own son from death. That act did "forgive" all the bad that the Vader personae did and brought the "good man who was your father" back to life. That event is what Obi Wan refused to believe was possible. Yet Luke continued to believe in it and in the end put his own life on the line to prove it. And his father, Anakin, came back and proved him right. So therefore, the bi-polar brat incarnation that was Hayd-akin not only has no place in ROTJ for other reasons, but removing Sebastakin essentially negates all that Luke worked and suffered to achieve. Putting Hayd-akin in there was nothing but a blunt cheap stunt to "link the trilogies together." A stunt that auteur Lucas put very little thought into or else he would have realized all of this himself.

Like someone pointed out, it just all depends on what you consider the "death of Anakin" because I believe that Vader was redeemed in the end, but no matter what you say I don't think that he made up for all the evil he had done. Even Yoda says in ROTJ that "once you walk down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." So, Vader may have turned his life back the good man he once was, but he's not a Jedi anymore. He may rejected the Sith, but he was no longer, or ever would be, a Jedi. So it only makes since that the Jedi form of him would be a spirit. I haven't missed the point of the story, stilla. The whole point was that Luke would reject the dark side and turn his father away from it. The whole point was to show in the PT how Anakin fell, and the OT was about how Luke starts to walk down a similar path but turns away in the end and also redeem his father.



It can never be that way if only because the dramatic elements of the OT were written to be surprises et al. The Prequels pretty much ignore all the careful writing in order to give fan-boys the cheap vicarious thrills of seeing their favorite characters in action once again. For anyone who really cares about story, it will always be IV, V, VI, I, II, III.

Maybe how you care about the story and some others, but mostly because that's how you grew up on the story- I'm the same...I grew up on the OT so of course I want the PT to be written in a way that still preserves the surprises in the OT, but it's not. I'll watch it 1-6 merely because that's chronological order. Watch it how ever you want.

stillakid
02-19-2005, 01:20 AM
Even Yoda says in ROTJ that "once you walk down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."


The whole point was that Luke would reject the dark side and turn his father away from it. The whole point was to show in the PT how Anakin fell, and the OT was about how Luke starts to walk down a similar path but turns away in the end and also redeem his father.

Hmm? Anyone else notice the hypocrisy of the situation above? How is it that you can use Yoda's logic to suggest that Anakin never really returned to his true self while simultaneously saying that Luke managed to turn away from the dark side just fine? Undoubtedly, Luke gave in to his anger and hate in order to bring Vader down. Without question, he started down the darkpath therefore, by Yoda's logic, it should always dominate his (Luke's) destiny.

So which is it? Did Luke turn away really or was Anakin doomed? Or did Luke turn to the Darkside and Anakin found salvation? You can't have it both ways.


So, Vader may have turned his life back the good man he once was, but he's not a Jedi anymore. He may rejected the Sith, but he was no longer, or ever would be, a Jedi. So it only makes since that the Jedi form of him would be a spirit. I haven't missed the point of the story, stilla.
But that's what "redemption" is. He realized the error of his ways and turned his back on the sin and his master (the Devil). From that he gained salvation (religious parallels) and is granted access to heaven. By becoming a martyr (by picking up an electrified Palpatine), Anakin "kills" off Vader and returns himself to re-become the "good man who was [Luke's] father." It's pretty basic. There is no other way to look at it. For if what you suggest is true, then Luke was wrong all along and the effort to "save" his father was folly from the get-go. But Anakin himself proves your theory wrong with his last breath when he says, "Tell your sister you were right about me." What Luke was right about was the there was still good in him and that he "saved" his soul. You'll recall Luke pleading, "I've got to save you," and Anakin responding, "You already have Luke." You're suggesting the complete opposite, a theory that isn't backed up by what actually occurs onscreen in any way shape or form.

What does happen is that Anakin is reborn, Anakin "kills" Vader whilst killing Palpatine, then the body of a fully "good" Anakin dies resulting in a spirit that in the original OT resembles the reborn Anakin as everyone knows him. In the new version, the newly reborn Anakin dies and results in a spirit which resembles a pathetic bipolar selfish brat, hardly the epitome of a selfless Jedi. It makes no sense.

Imperial Monarche
02-19-2005, 08:06 AM
Hmm? Anyone else notice the hypocrisy of the situation above? How is it that you can use Yoda's logic to suggest that Anakin never really returned to his true self while simultaneously saying that Luke managed to turn away from the dark side just fine? Undoubtedly, Luke gave in to his anger and hate in order to bring Vader down. Without question, he started down the darkpath therefore, by Yoda's logic, it should always dominate his (Luke's) destiny.

So which is it? Did Luke turn away really or was Anakin doomed? Or did Luke turn to the Darkside and Anakin found salvation? You can't have it both ways.But that's what "redemption" is. He realized the error of his ways and turned his back on the sin and his master (the Devil). From that he gained salvation (religious parallels) and is granted access to heaven. By becoming a martyr (by picking up an electrified Palpatine), Anakin "kills" off Vader and returns himself to re-become the "good man who was [Luke's] father." It's pretty basic. There is no other way to look at it. For if what you suggest is true, then Luke was wrong all along and the effort to "save" his father was folly from the get-go. But Anakin himself proves your theory wrong with his last breath when he says, "Tell your sister you were right about me." What Luke was right about was the there was still good in him and that he "saved" his soul. You'll recall Luke pleading, "I've got to save you," and Anakin responding, "You already have Luke." You're suggesting the complete opposite, a theory that isn't backed up by what actually occurs onscreen in any way shape or form.

What does happen is that Anakin is reborn, Anakin "kills" Vader whilst killing Palpatine, then the body of a fully "good" Anakin dies resulting in a spirit that in the original OT resembles the reborn Anakin as everyone knows him. In the new version, the newly reborn Anakin dies and results in a spirit which resembles a pathetic bipolar selfish brat, hardly the epitome of a selfless Jedi. It makes no sense.


Luke may have used anger and hate to strike down his father, but immediately he realizes what he has done and subsides. I would hardly call that starting down the dark path, merely touching the tip of the ice berg. If he had truly started down the dark path, he would have used that anger to either kill Palpatine himself or started to inquire about the dark side's powers more. In AOTC, Anakin starts down the dark path by killing the Tuskin Raiders, but instead of realizing how he was wrong to let anger take him over (he kinda does, but it doesn't last long), he instead (with the pushing of Palpatine in the EU) uses his anger to fuel him and eventually starts to inquire about what makes a Sith so much more powerful than a Jedi.

These are things that Luke has turned away from. He stopped before it started to dominate his destiny. And I still hold strong to my theory, but it's just how you look at it. You see it that I'm being a hypocrit when I think I'm not. I not trying to have it two ways. Luke did save his father from suffering the doom if he would have died as the evil dark lord, but since he convinced his father in the end to return to the good man he once was, his father was let in to become one with the Force, but as Anakin Skywalker, the form he was before he turned to the dark side. The body that died was still primarily Darth Vader. I'm not arguing that Luke didn't succeed in the end because he did, but I'm trying to show logic for why Hayden is in ROTJ. Perhaps the Force chooses the form that a Jedi's spirit will take and it chose the form of Haydakin because that did represent the good man that Anakin once was. He may be snotty, but you have to remember, he didn't grow up in the Temple. He was found as a 10 year old boy so he had already lived some life, he was allowed to have anger and be a brat. Did you think that he would just magically reform himself once he set foot in the Temple? He alreay had traits you can't get rid of that the rest of the Jedi who were born into the Jedi Order were never allowed to feel.

To give it a more realistic perspective, those that believe in the Christian religion and salvation know that when you accept Christ as your personal savior, you still hold on to some of the bad traits. You still sin and everything, you don't magically change because you have lived alot of your life with those bad traits. As is the same with Anakin.

stillakid
02-20-2005, 11:04 AM
his father was let in to become one with the Force, but as Anakin Skywalker, the form he was before he turned to the dark side. The body that died was still primarily Darth Vader. I'm not arguing that Luke didn't succeed in the end because he did, but I'm trying to show logic for why Hayden is in ROTJ. Perhaps the Force chooses the form that a Jedi's spirit will take and it chose the form of Haydakin because that did represent the good man that Anakin once was. He may be snotty, but you have to remember, he didn't grow up in the Temple. He was found as a 10 year old boy so he had already lived some life, he was allowed to have anger and be a brat.

I won't agree with it, but for the sake of argument, let's assume that what you say is true and that Sebastakin wasn't the form that "the Force" decided was the true "good" version of the person to have represented in ghost form. That being said, while again, I'll allow for the sake of argument that certainly there was a considerable amount of change in Anakin that occurred offscreen between TPM and AOTC that took him from squeeky clean goodie boy to bipolar brat, that is exactly the point...we didn't see it. A movie, especially a movie like this, isn't meant to be a slice of life. It is dramatic fiction so for a story point to refer back to a previously established element demands that the audience recognize it in the spirit (no pun intended) that it is intended.

In simple terms, if the ROTJ ghost Anakin is meant to represent a good version of the character, then Haydakin definitely wasn't the proper choice. That version, the only version of Haydakin that we saw, was not "good man that was your father" material. An argument that Jake-akin was that version could be made, but dramatically, it would be pretty silly to have a ghost Jake-akin appear in the trees. The fact is that we (the audience) never got to see any truly "good" version of Anakin-Jedi EXCEPT for the Born-Again Sebast-akin, which is why the original version of ROTJ is the only proper version of the story.

Mad Slanted Powers
02-20-2005, 01:12 PM
The Anakin we see in the new Episode 6 looks more like Episode 3 Anakin than Episode 2 Anakin. Perhaps we should wait until after viewing Episode 3 to make a final judgement. I don't really care whether he looks like Hayden or Sebastian. I think looking like Hayden makes sense because that is the Anakin before he turned to the Dark Side. I also think looking like Sebastian makes sense because that is what he looked like when he redeemed himself. The only problem I really have with the change is that it seems kind of unfair to the original actor.

2-1B
02-20-2005, 01:39 PM
I agree, the ROTJ ghost is from ROTS so we should wait and see if he hasn't "grown up" more by that time and shed some of his ego . . . I mean, it's possible that he and Ben have grown closer, is it not ?

stillakid
02-20-2005, 02:12 PM
I agree, the ROTJ ghost is from ROTS so we should wait and see if he hasn't "grown up" more by that time and shed some of his ego . . . I mean, it's possible that he and Ben have grown closer, is it not ?

In terms of not having seen ROTS yet, I suppose anything is possible. But from the looks of things, the entire basis of him turning to the darkside really begins from the first moments of AOTC with him being impatient and angry for no reason at all. If I'm reading you right, you're suggesting that he goes from brash punk in AOTC to level-headed upstanding friend of Obi Wan in ROTS and then to evil Dark Lord all in the same 2 hour span. Anything's possible, but it seems like a stretch to me. :confused:

Mad Slanted Powers
02-20-2005, 02:41 PM
In terms of not having seen ROTS yet, I suppose anything is possible. But from the looks of things, the entire basis of him turning to the darkside really begins from the first moments of AOTC with him being impatient and angry for no reason at all. If I'm reading you right, you're suggesting that he goes from brash punk in AOTC to level-headed upstanding friend of Obi Wan in ROTS and then to evil Dark Lord all in the same 2 hour span. Anything's possible, but it seems like a stretch to me. :confused:

Perhaps ROTS will better illustrate that he and Obi-Wan have been better friends all along. Also, I don't think he was impatient and angry for no reason at all in AOTC. We see the bad behavior first when he questions Obi-Wan in front of Padmé, so he is probably just overly eager to help her. Also, given his talent, it is natural to feel the frustration that he descibes to Padmé. And even as he complains about Obi-Wan, he says he is grateful and that he is like a father. I also don't think being a brash punk necessarily makes him evil. At that point he is still acting out of a desire to do good. He even shows regret for what he did to the Tusken Raiders. So, even though the seeds of evil are there, he recognizes it and tries to reject it. However, a point will come in ROTS when he will reject Obi-Wan, reject the Jedi, reject Anakin and become Darth Vader.

Rocketboy
02-20-2005, 02:47 PM
The way I've been seeing this whole Anakin spirit thing:
When Anakin gave into the dark side and became Vader, the good Anakin (considering the term "good" means before he gave in to the dark side) was submerged deep down and Vader is in control of the Anakin body. When Luke helps redeem Anakin/destroy Vader, the good Anakin returns to the forefront, into the older, disfigured body that Vader controlled for 20+ years. This means that young Anakin exists in old Anakin's body for the last few moments of his life.
Basically, the good spirit was "frozen" for years within Vader, while the body aged.

Kidhuman
02-20-2005, 09:47 PM
Basically, the good spirit was "frozen" for years within Vader, while the body aged.


You mean like Encino Sith?

Mad Slanted Powers
02-21-2005, 01:05 AM
You mean like Encino Sith?

Unfrozen Caveman Jedi

Joshkj
02-21-2005, 01:52 AM
srry ive skiPed alot of teh thread, but here is my imPut, Im holdinng off onn buing any collection
1. thhere has to be one with all six movies in the future.
2. maybe thhey will get smart and have alot of oPtions like, full screen,wide, ORIGINAL, and uPdated, and so on all in one box

Devo
02-21-2005, 05:39 AM
Perhaps ROTS will better illustrate that he and Obi-Wan have been better friends all along.

Using the Lucas-favoured method of having the characters refer to offscreen events? Because thats all we'll get, if that.

As Stillakid implied Lucas left far too much story to be told in this one film that was neglected in the previous two prequels. There just won't be enough time to get across in any meaningful way the emotions of the characters and all the events that need to occur in order to clarify all the vague referances made in the OT. I will be very very surprised if they actually pull it off. I don't think they will.

Lucas says that the films alone are canon but seems content to leave the character development to the cartoon or novelisations. Thats a ridiculous way to approach making these films.

The new changes on the OT dvds don't grate on me massively but I don't like the idea that Lucas is trying to bring the OT down to the level of the prequels. Why retrospectively change the existing films instead of making the new ones conform to the old from the off?

Imperial Monarche
02-26-2005, 01:27 AM
Using the Lucas-favoured method of having the characters refer to offscreen events? Because thats all we'll get, if that.

As Stillakid implied Lucas left far too much story to be told in this one film that was neglected in the previous two prequels. There just won't be enough time to get across in any meaningful way the emotions of the characters and all the events that need to occur in order to clarify all the vague referances made in the OT. I will be very very surprised if they actually pull it off. I don't think they will.

Lucas says that the films alone are canon but seems content to leave the character development to the cartoon or novelisations. Thats a ridiculous way to approach making these films.

The new changes on the OT dvds don't grate on me massively but I don't like the idea that Lucas is trying to bring the OT down to the level of the prequels. Why retrospectively change the existing films instead of making the new ones conform to the old from the off?


Excellent point, however, there are a couple of points you must take into consideration. One, we haven't seen ROTS so there may be plot points still to come. Two, as long as this is an evolving storyline (meaning the EU and subsequent movies), new ideas occur and advances in technology allow for things that couldn't be made when the OT was made. Finally, most of the complaints all come down to perception. I'm sure if you asked Lucas to give a truthful answer, he would say that he's made no changes or messed up continuity. Stillakid keeps refering to the Haydakin as a "bipolar brat" and so therefore he wasn't the "good friend" Obi-Wan describes. Why not? Everyone has their own version of what a good friend entails. I have good friends that I may argue with or disagree with and that is exactly how Anakin acts in AOTC. Never was there said in the OT that Anakin was this great person, better than any other Jedi in his actions or even the model Jedi. He was just described as a good man and friend. But, that's what most people act like they wanted from Anakin. He wasn't that great of a person and thats what made him succeptable to the dark side, just like Luke. He was a good friend because he helped his friends, but yet he was still just as confused, whiney (mostly in ANH) and in need of a mentor just like his father was.

Another thing, Lucas can't accomplish what needs to be accomplished by showing all the things that really built Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship so it has to be done through dialogue. there's more to the PT than just Anakin and his fall, and his relationship to Obi-Wan, there's also the clone wars and the start of the Empire. All those things need to be included and if he were to delve into the little minute details, each movie would be like LOTR.

stillakid
02-27-2005, 01:42 PM
Another thing, Lucas can't accomplish what needs to be accomplished by showing all the things that really built Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship so it has to be done through dialogue. there's more to the PT than just Anakin and his fall, and his relationship to Obi-Wan, there's also the clone wars and the start of the Empire. All those things need to be included and if he were to delve into the little minute details, each movie would be like LOTR.

Not really. Not if was done right. A simple glance can take the place of a monologue. Minutes and hours of exposition can be replaced with a cleverly written line of dialogue. There are countless ways for relationships and storypoints to be made that don't lead to plodding and gratutious bladder-tests like the LOTR. While there were definitely story and character points for the Saga to get to, as established by the OT, there certainly wasn't that much that couldn't have easily been handled, really, within the space of 4 hours.