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JEDIpartner
12-08-2004, 10:24 AM
This time last year, Rick McCallum stated that this would probably be the shortest of the Star Wars films and that it would probably come in at just under 100 minutes. That sent a ripple of concern through the community. How can you wrap up the prequels and send them in the direction of the OT in under 100 minutes?!!!!

Well... the latest INSIDER stated that the film is currently clocking in at 2 hours and 25 minutes, which is about 10-15 minutes longer than they want it to be.

So, that's the good news. At least we are getting a two hour film and not something that runs at "Disney length".

stillakid
12-08-2004, 10:37 AM
Quantity over quality? That sounds like Lucas now. :rolleyes:

scruffziller
12-08-2004, 10:48 AM
Quantity over quality? That sounds like Lucas now. :rolleyes:
Hopefully we will have both and won't have to compromise either.

JEDIpartner
12-08-2004, 10:57 AM
I'm hoping the time factor will allow them to fully realise the evolutions of the characters and the plot points.

stillakid
12-08-2004, 01:04 PM
I'm hoping the time factor will allow them to fully realise the evolutions of the characters and the plot points.


The biggest issue is how in tarnation can Episode III bridge the disconnect between Hayden Christensen and Darth Vader. These are such two distinctly different personalities with vastly different motivations that one can't possibly have come from the other. Angry yet level-headed Vader bears no relation to whiny-boy Hayd-akin. If Episode III can pull that off, then it will be nothing short of a miracle. So it's not a question of time. Time just gives Lucas more opportunity to throw more "stuff" on screen to sell in toy stores. But the character issues will be evident from minute one. We'll know right away if this is really the saving grace or if it's just a continuation of the failures of I and II.

Elliejabbapop
12-08-2004, 01:25 PM
Level-headed Vader is 20 years older ;)

JEDIpartner
12-08-2004, 01:37 PM
Well... one of things that you have to consider is how much of Anakin's willfulness was ripped away from him when he was so mortally scarred. That can change a good bit of a person's psychology right there. Then... you also have to consider the point that Elliejabbapop brought up. There was another 20 years that have gone by when we catch up with Vader in ANH. I can honestly say I am a different person from the person I was when I was 25 (I'm 37 now).

There's also the bit where Vader is basically a henchman for the Emperor. He's someone's lackey to a certain extent. If he doesn't act "rationally" or submit, he can expect some rough treatment. Plus... Anakin kinda "owes" Palpatine for bringing him back from death.

stillakid
12-08-2004, 10:30 PM
Well... one of things that you have to consider is how much of Anakin's willfulness was ripped away from him when he was so mortally scarred. That can change a good bit of a person's psychology right there. Then... you also have to consider the point that Elliejabbapop brought up. There was another 20 years that have gone by when we catch up with Vader in ANH. I can honestly say I am a different person from the person I was when I was 25 (I'm 37 now).

There's also the bit where Vader is basically a henchman for the Emperor. He's someone's lackey to a certain extent. If he doesn't act "rationally" or submit, he can expect some rough treatment. Plus... Anakin kinda "owes" Palpatine for bringing him back from death.


Yeah yeah, except you can't just fall back on "well, it's twenty years later" in an expansive story like this without some kind of transitional storytelling. If we go from hot-headed, irrational whiny boy Anakin (in the Prequel personae), then jump immediately to the Vader personae in Episode IV without any explanation onscreen somewhere (presumably in Episode IV...which we know doesn't happen). So while it's true that people change over time, especially with traumatic situations, but that isn't enough to justify the intense difference b/n Hayd-akin and David Prowse/James Earl Jones.

2-1B
12-09-2004, 12:36 AM
In my opinion, Anakin isn't ALWAYS irrational and whiny, so when Vader emerges that PART of Anakin will be stripped away. As his heart turns cold his mind will become all business. That is, until Luke helps rekindle that tiny light inside.

Running time - Just wait, a year from now when the DVD is out, we'll be watching documentaries on the DVD about how they went in at the last minute to add a whole new sequence ala the droid factory in AOTC.

That's what worries me more than anything . . . for ROTS, they already have to cut down in length, but THEN WHAT goes after George gets another idea for a silly video game sequence like Threepio's head swap ? :p

scruffziller
12-09-2004, 09:56 AM
Yeah yeah, except you can't just fall back on "well, it's twenty years later" in an expansive story like this without some kind of transitional storytelling.There is alot that happens between eps 3 and eps 4 that we probably won't see unless we get the young Darth Vader series on television. Vader in EPS 3 SHOULD NOT be the same Vader in EPS 4. If Vader is suppose to be who he is in EPS 3 as he would be in EPS 4, I would say that is probably a very stagnant charachter implication on its part, especially for SW. One of the charm points of SW is that the charachter evolution is primarily off screen.


So while it's true that people change over time, especially with traumatic situations, but that isn't enough to justify the intense difference b/n Hayd-akin and David Prowse/James Earl Jones.Don't forget you got Aninkin EPS II on your mind with this comparison so I would only wait till you see EPS 3 and then you can say. Because we don't know what charachter changes Anikin has upfront in EPS 3. But I am sure it will at least be as evident as the changes from Luke EPS 5 to Luke EPS 6. Luke was quite whiny in ESB but was not whiny in the least in ROTJ. So I have confidence that Anikin will not be whiny as well in ROTS.

JEDIpartner
12-09-2004, 11:50 AM
One of the problems that I can't stand with a lot of Star Wars fans is that they have to have everything SHOWN to them... "we need to see Tank!" "What's the Battle of Tanaab? We need to see that!" "Who's this Bounty Hunter on Ord Mantell?"

There is just a lot of stuff, like passing names, references and charater development between the PT & OT that just needs needs to be understood or accepted as is. "20 years is 20 years." That's a considerable amount of time for a person to live, experience things and develop. All of that doesn't need to be seen to have happened.

2-1B
12-09-2004, 12:31 PM
JP, that's partly what I don't like about EU - every little name or reference has to be expanded (duh :D ) upon and fleshed out. Often to my dislike.

JEDIpartner
12-09-2004, 03:41 PM
I understand what you are saying. There are a couple EU books I like... "The Approaching Storm" is one, but I am not so gung-ho over all the softcover first releases. They tend to muck up the SW universe better than anything else.

scruffziller
12-09-2004, 09:27 PM
Right, JP. The "mystery" that everyone says that is being spoiled would happen if everything is explained out the way STILLA sounds like he wants it. But maybe that is his own personal taste. I like the EU but sometime I get "too much story" from it.

stillakid
12-10-2004, 12:00 AM
Right, JP. The "mystery" that everyone says that is being spoiled would happen if everything is explained out the way STILLA sounds like he wants it. But maybe that is his own personal taste. I like the EU but sometime I get "too much story" from it.


Um, no. Absolutely wrong. I'm probably the biggest advocate of subtlety around here. What I'm getting at more than anything is that the way Lucas has developed Anakin in the Prequels does not lead him down a logical path to the Darth Vader that we already are familiar with. Because of this now established character arc in the Prequels, it will take a "fix" within Episode III or new dialogue in the Super Nifty Episode IV to bridge the gap which currently renders the Prequel Anakin and the OT Vader as mutually exclusive. Trust me, I don't want to ever be hammered over the head with information if there is a visual or subtle way to get it across. The dinner scene in TPM is an excellent example of storytelling gone terribly wrong. I HATE that kind of lazy writing. So, no, I have no desire to see every excrutiating detail which gets Hayd-akin to the evil Prowse-Vader. But it would have been nice to see Prequel Anakin with logical motivations which lead naturally to Vader. Instead we have a whiny immature brat with no real motivation to "go bad" except an intense case of blue balls and misplaced animosity toward just about every around him. That kind of immaturity may be fine as a reason for someone to go bad, but especially over time, that nonsense fades away which would make our ANH Vader even more out of touch with Hayd-akin. For when "Anakin" finally grows up between III and IV, what then is Vader's motivation to stay bad? See, if Anakin had some plausible political beef which caused his "turn to the darkside," then it would all be understandable and make him a sympathetic character for the audience. But instead, he's just a spoiled brat who turns the audience off for the most part.

2-1B
12-10-2004, 12:32 AM
But that's just it, we haven't SEEN ROTS yet so we don't know for sure how Anakin is before the big turn of events.

Maybe when ROTS opens up, he's already past the immaturity and now more battle hardened and resolute after 3 years of offscreen Clone War-ing ? :confused:

I really don't know because I don't know all the spoilers yet but I like what Scruffers said about Luke from ESB - ROTJ.

?

scruffziller
12-10-2004, 06:45 AM
I think it is safe to say that we all agree that we want the same thing. But our level of faith in what GL is going to bring us on ROTS is what we are arguing about.

JEDIpartner
12-10-2004, 11:49 AM
...it would have been nice to see Prequel Anakin with logical motivations which lead naturally to Vader. Instead we have a whiny immature brat with no real motivation to "go bad" except an intense case of blue balls and misplaced animosity toward just about every around him.
Well... there are a few factors that make sense:

1) He was a slave and resented that he was a slave and not free like other people.
2) He had no father. Perhaps he felt as though he were missing out on something when other kids had two parents. (real world psychology)
3) He resented no being able to be with his mother and was ****ed off that she died while in the care of her new husband (in a roundabout way).
4) He's just really mad that his mom died, period.
5) He feels his abilities are exceptional and Obi-Wan is trying to hold them in check.
6) His ego is being fed by Palpatine and is being manipulated into thinking that the Jedi are doing him a disservice.

So... if you look at some of those points, you can kinda see how that could happen.

hango fett
12-10-2004, 02:03 PM
i tend to aggree with JP. i mean, if my mom died, and i was a jedi, hell yeah i would turn evil. especially if you knew what person(s) had a big part in her death.
there...thats my two cent
HF

scruffziller
12-10-2004, 02:57 PM
I would say that the real reason for Anikin turning to the darkside is that he believes that he will be able to save the universe from itself. Remember, evil never believes that it is evil, it believes it is doing the things that it does for a higher standard of good. That attitude is evident of Anikin in EPS II, when he says he will stop people from dying and in EPS 5 when he tells Luke that we can bring order to the galaxy. Not to destroy the rebels, but to fix things. And I believe that in ROTJ Vader sees that the price of giving himself to the darkside to use its gifts had too hefty of a price and then gives it up, realizing; I was a fool. That is where I believe that it is under those circumstances why Anikin turns evil is because he does not believe he is. Nor once does the Empy or Vader tell Luke turn to EVIL, but join the darkside. They simply see it as another side of the coin (that is stronger) but part of the whole coin, the ying-yang.

stillakid
12-11-2004, 10:55 AM
I really don't know because I don't know all the spoilers yet but I like what Scruffers said about Luke from ESB - ROTJ.

?


The problem with that comparison is that Luke was a character that just about anybody could relate to while Anakin isn't.

Luke was a restless kid with great ambition for more than a simple farm life. His dreams were bigger than his small town life could provide for. The United States is full of people like this. Some of them do find a way "out" and embark on a path to their dreams and some don't. Along the way, they are faced with temptations and distractions. The choice to go down the good path or the bad occurs for everyone. Luke is us.

Anakin? Whiny, spoiled, brat. Too much power too soon. Blames everybody else for his problems. Wants to get laid more than anything else. Bad childhood. Sounds like the soundtrack to The Wall, doesn't it? Ergo, just about the only people that can relate to Anakin are rock stars. Hardly the recipe for an empathetic character.

Luke's temptation to the Dark Side is understandable. He goes into his adventure with only the best of intentions...or so he thinks. Initially, he's just after something better than farming. Then this galactic conflict gets thrown into his lap. He didn't go looking for this, but it'll do. Fun, adventure, excitement...just like Yoda said. Along the way, Luke finds out that he has more power than he thought and unexpected expectations of him. All of this wasn't an accident. That's a lot of responsibility to heap on a naive farmkid. This is bound to cause severe conflict within him...is he just in this for any kind of adventure or is it bigger than that? He has the chance to actually reunite with long lost daddy...or turn away to realize that this isn't just a romp through the galaxy for fun. He chooses the high road. This is a real choice with real circumstances that he has to consciously recognize.

Anakin, on the other hand, is just a moronic brat from the start (of AOTC). We are led to believe that the little Opie kid from TPM gets to be a complete jerk because of the rush of power that comes his way. From the OT, we are led to believe that this rush of power comes without proper mitagation from his teacher, Obi Wan. From the Prequels, we see that this isn't the case...we see that Anakin is just a whine boy anyway even though Obi Wan is trying to temper his spoiled brat attitude. Anakin didn't go into this with any intentions like Luke did. He just kinda...well, went. Who can relate to Anakin? How many slave boys exist in this century (or the last) anymore? How many kids had to leave their mothers in slavery while they went off to boarding school? How many kids get to be rock stars and face the temptations of the gifted? Not too many. Anakin is not an empathetic character for whom we should ever feel sympathy.

Before the Prequels, I actually felt sorry for Sebast-akin when he martyrs himself for Luke. The OT backstory told us that Anakin was seduced by the Darkside before he really knew what was going on. The Prequel story shows us that Anakin was a jerk the whole time. In light of the new continuity, no matter what happens in Episode III, it will be difficult to ever feel like Sebast-akin somehow turned "good"...afterall, he never really was.

scruffziller
12-11-2004, 02:24 PM
The Prequel story shows us that Anakin was a jerk the whole time. In light of the new continuity, no matter what happens in Episode III, it will be difficult to ever feel like Sebast-akin somehow turned "good"...afterall, he never really was.
Yea I wondered that myself. I was thinking that Anikin was never on the light side the way the prequels show it. Like we all discussed in this thread.
http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=21792&highlight=Anikin

I wasn't really trying to say that Luke and Anikin evolved the same way in the stories but was just pointing out that there is hope to get what we want out of EPS 3 because of how GL seems to be laying a pattern in reference to the OT, so that we won't see the same Anikin in EPS 3 as we did in EPS 2.

Now STILLA, I would like to ask. Even with as much as GL has mucked up the story so far, how would you have EPS 3 pan out to have Anikin gracefully fit with the Vader of the OT. Or would you say it is too far gone?:)

2-1B
12-11-2004, 08:06 PM
stillakid, none of that is relative to the Luke ESB - ROTJ comparison because it this nothing to do with whether or not the audience likes or empathizes with the characters.

I'm just talking about the *offscreen* development and changes in the characters. Like him or not, Luke does change and mature a lot offscreen between those two films. The same might happen with Anakin whether "we" like him or not.

We don't know yet.

stillakid
12-12-2004, 01:16 AM
stillakid, none of that is relative to the Luke ESB - ROTJ comparison because it this nothing to do with whether or not the audience likes or empathizes with the characters.

I'm just talking about the *offscreen* development and changes in the characters. Like him or not, Luke does change and mature a lot offscreen between those two films. The same might happen with Anakin whether "we" like him or not.

We don't know yet.

True, but my point in all of that was that Father and Son began in uniquely different places so the comparison is rather moot. Where Luke began as a character with whom a generation of restless kids could empathize, Anakin essentially begins as a rock star type who thinks that the world owes him whatever he wishes. Then again, maybe that is familiar to the current generation... :ermm:



Now STILLA, I would like to ask. Even with as much as GL has mucked up the story so far, how would you have EPS 3 pan out to have Anikin gracefully fit with the Vader of the OT. Or would you say it is too far gone?
I don't really think it's possible to bridge the gap, no matter what happens. As I've said, the foundation of who Hayd-akin is and the foundation of who Vader is are two entirely separate things. Naturally, the personaes should change and I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't be different. Afterall, this is the basis of Obi Wan's assertion that the "good man who was your father was destroyed." But in that statement exists the problem: "the good man" who was Anakin didn't bother to show up for the Prequels. He was replaced with a narcissistic spoiled bipolar brat. Heck, we aren't even privy to what drove Opie-like Jake-akin to become the smarmy Hayd-akin of Episode II. Even those two versions of the character don't have any clear relevance to one another.

I think that ultimately the problem lies in the idea that Vader used to be a good man with good intentions who was unwittingly seduced by the temptations of the quick and easy path by someone else (Palpatine). I really can't stress that enough. Because it is of utmost importance if Vader's loyalty to the Emperor is to be understood. It takes Luke writhing near death to break Vader from that seduction. However, what the Prequels offer us is a guy who is running headlong down that road all by himself. No one is pulling him in that direction or seducing him. It's just Anakin...all alone...being a jerkoff. I presume that Palpatine will just be there ready to give the guy a uniform after he rumbles with Obi Wan in another of his misguided temper tantrums. Hardly the picture that the OT painted.

scruffziller
12-13-2004, 08:34 AM
Heck, we aren't even privy to what drove Opie-like Jake-akin to become the smarmy Hayd-akin of Episode II. Even those two versions of the character don't have any clear relevance to one another.

Yea, that is most certainly the truth. The ultimate thing is that Anikin in the prequels is nothing like how Obi Wan describes him in the OT.

You can't even say that Obi Wan was stretching the truth because when he does finally tell Luke in ROTJ that "the good man who was your father was destroyed" he is finally laying the specific truth on the line so there is no need for hiding anymore of who or what he was. Like I have said before, the prequels to be made the way they should have and tell the story like it should have would have fit with the OT but they would more close to your cafe house theater movies and would not have the blockbuster audience to draw in. So ultimately the story was sacrificed to make money, using bells and whistles.:ermm:

Darth Alex
12-13-2004, 03:34 PM
I'm glad they'll keep the running time around the same length as all the other 5 movies and I do think this one should be longer; there's alot to connect.
Good thread. The story should dictate the running time, not how many Happy Meals the "product" will sell.
This is gonna be one interesting movie. From the "plot summary" I read on another site, there are still things I want to see and that particular item had plenty I was happy with.
Although my wallet will literally let out an audible groan, I would like to see DVD's down the road of the Saga with cut footage back in to justify an increased running length. For example, the desert Qui vs. Maul fight is poorly editied, just bad work. Fix it, SHOW why Maul falls, and it'd be a justified and acceptable running length increase...

stillakid
12-14-2004, 01:45 PM
Like I have said before, the prequels to be made the way they should have and tell the story like it should have would have fit with the OT but they would more close to your cafe house theater movies and would not have the blockbuster audience to draw in. So ultimately the story was sacrificed to make money, using bells and whistles.:ermm:


I disagree with that. I think that Lucas could have (had someone else) written a very exciting, yet wholly, politically motivated story that would easily have included all the necessary characters whilst the continuity and characters adhered tightly to what was expected. Lucas himself stated (on one of the DVDs) that he was just making sh** up to fill 6 hours of screentime. But there were plenty of story points he could have explored without A)changing the characters as we knew them and B)wasting screentime with gratuitous nonsense.

Droid
12-14-2004, 03:32 PM
What about Obi-wan referring to Anakin as "a good friend"? When was that ever shown in the prequels? IT WASN'T.

When was Obi-wan ever "amazed at how stronly the Force was with" Anakin? Are we to believe Obi-wan saying, "Not even Yoda has a midicholrian count that high" in the Phantom Menace justifies this line in the original trilogy. And the original trilogy leads you to believe that it is BECAUSE Obi-wan is so impressed with how strongly the Force is with Anakin, that in an act of foolish pride he decided to train Anakin.

And "I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi" doesn't really match up with promising Qui-Gon and then getting the Council's approval. It was not a task Obi-wan wanted. I don't really think he "took it upon himself."

As I have said before, original trilogy dialogue only matches the prequels if you look at things from a very, very strained "point of view".

JEDIpartner
12-15-2004, 09:06 AM
Then again... I leave out a lot of general details of a story, regardless of how impactful it might have been, as time passes. I start leaving out people and just kinda get to the meat of the story.

As far as the "took it upon himself" part, he sort of did, no? He told Yoda that he would respect Qui-Gon's wishes and take him as his Padawan. So, Anakin was Obi-Wan's Padawan. That's being an apprentice. An apprentice is trained by the person with the skills and knowledge.

stillakid
12-15-2004, 11:46 AM
Then again... I leave out a lot of general details of a story, regardless of how impactful it might have been, as time passes. I start leaving out people and just kinda get to the meat of the story.
Great, except that Lucas doesn't have the luxury. He established a continuity and had the responsibility to see it through. Changing story points now necessitates altering the original material.


As far as the "took it upon himself" part, he sort of did, no?
No. The original dialogue quite pointedly suggests that Obi Wan, in his youthful arrogance, found a young kid who was a great pilot, was amazed on his own at how strong the Force was with him and made the decision on his own to train the boy (which leads to the failure by not being able to keep the good man who is Anakin from taking the quick and easy path to the Dark Side). Thus far, not one shred of that setup has been illustrated in the Prequels. Instead, somebody else discovers Anakin, makes the choice to train him, and then Obi Wan reluctantly agrees to take over the training. Then a brash and bipolar older Anakin isn't so much seduced by the Dark Side as just continues on in his annoyingly selfish ways. He never was a "good man." A happy go lucky lil' kid, but never a "good man."

Droid
12-15-2004, 02:09 PM
I kind of saw the prequels like this:

A young, rather impulsive General Obi-wan Kenobi is a general in the Clone Wars in the service of Bail Organa. During that time he meets a young soldier, much like Luke in may ways, who is an extremely talented fighter pilot in the Clone Wars. Perhaps Anakin has a bone to pick, a lot of anger, because his entire family was wiped out in the Clone Wars. Obi-wan and Anakin befriend each other. Anakin is impressed with Obi-wan's Jedi skills. Obi-wan is amazed at how strongly the Force is with Anakin. Now Obi-wan is a Jedi Knight, not Jedi Master, so perhaps he isn't allowed to train Anakin. Or maybe Anakin's duties in the Clone Wars will not allow him to go away to train with Yoda. Or maybe Obi-wan often quarrled with his master Yoda (was I any different when you taught me?). So he decides to train Anakin as a Jedi himself. Anakin is impuslive and ambitious, perhaps a rogue like Han Solo, and slowly turns to the Dark Side. Anakin and Obi-wan would have been good friends and perhaps fought side by side in one of my prequel movies like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid.

I don't know how Owen and Luke and Leia's mother quite fit into it, but I don't think there is a person here who thinks the prequels are even remotely what we assumed the backstory would be from 1983-1999 based on original trilogy dialogue.

These movies should have been about Anakin and Obi-wan's friendship,
Obi-wan's foolish attempt to train Anakin himself, and how Anakin fell to the darkside. As it is we have no friendship, Obi-wan training Anakin with the council's blessing, and doing a pretty good job frankly. (Note in AOTC Obi-wan is worried about Anakin and Yoda - who presumably would have trained him better - chastises Obi-wan).

In the prequels Anakin goes from cherub boy, to creepy whiner with no explanation of the transition. We should have seen possible reasons Anakin would eventually turn to the Dark Side in Phantom Menace. As it is Phantom Menace accomplished nothing storywise. I know many will say, "It showed how Palpatine became chancellor", but there is no reason he couldn't just have been Chancellor when the story started. I think Lucas has spent much more time in the prequels showing how Palpatine became then Emperor than showing how Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader.

I know, it's Lucas' story. He chose to do it differently then I would have. But at least my way doesn't twist the dialogue of the original trilogy.

That said, I like the prequels A LOT. I just think they could have been done much better if they would have accepted that the original trilogy would dictate how the prequels had to go instead of shoehorning the original trilogy into the prequels.

Elliejabbapop
12-15-2004, 02:25 PM
I like your opinion very much Droid, I respect it, that's kind of how I thought the prequels up when I saw ep. IV but it changed when I saw V and VI. I think George always thought the prequels this way, he just did them in a totally different way, some might say the wrong way. The dark path is easier....
but I think everyone is going to take it back once we've seen ep.III. I LOVE the prequels.

JEDIpartner
12-15-2004, 02:43 PM
I LOVE the prequels.
Me too... :cool:

scruffziller
12-15-2004, 09:06 PM
I disagree with that. I think that Lucas could have (had someone else) written a very exciting, yet wholly, politically motivated story that would easily have included all the necessary characters whilst the continuity and characters adhered tightly to what was expected. Lucas himself stated (on one of the DVDs) that he was just making sh** up to fill 6 hours of screentime. But there were plenty of story points he could have explored without A)changing the characters as we knew them and B)wasting screentime with gratuitous nonsense.
Wow, I had forgotten about about GL saying that. Thnx Stilla.:)

stillakid
12-15-2004, 10:22 PM
Wow, I had forgotten about about GL saying that. Thnx Stilla.:)


No sweat. That's what I'm here for. ;)


And while Lucas obviously did choose to do the Prequels in a "different way" (as stated above), he was wrong to do so in terms of staying true to the established story. That said, even I could have lived with some minor "stretching" and rationalizations here and there had I and II been awesome movies on their own terms. But each is plagued with unredeemable film and story problems that they don't succeed at any level storywise. :(

2-1B
12-17-2004, 03:25 AM
stillakid - "and then Obi Wan reluctantly agrees to take over the training."

I completely disagree with that because Obi-Wan was only reluctant about Qui-Gon training Anakin. Once Jinn gets wacked, Obi-Wan is VERY persistent in training Anakin, even against Yoda's advice and with the intention of defying the council. He definitely was not reluctant at Qui's funeral when he promised Anakin that he would be a Jedi. I believe that he certainly did take it upon himself to train Anakin.

TPM certainly has it's share of fluff, I won't deny it, but I love those scenes toward the end of the film. :)

stillakid and scruffy-z, do you remember more specifics about George saying what he said about filling 6 hours of screentime ? I'm not recalling that part. Thanks. :)

stillakid
12-17-2004, 08:15 AM
stillakid - "and then Obi Wan reluctantly agrees to take over the training."

I completely disagree with that because Obi-Wan was only reluctant about Qui-Gon training Anakin. Once Jinn gets wacked, Obi-Wan is VERY persistent in training Anakin, even against Yoda's advice and with the intention of defying the council. He definitely was not reluctant at Qui's funeral when he promised Anakin that he would be a Jedi. I believe that he certainly did take it upon himself to train Anakin.

I understand the confusion, but I don't understand how you could completely disagree. The "obvious" intent of the OT dialogue was that Obi Wan was the one who found Anakin, realized his potential, and was the one who made the initial choice to train him as a Jedi. In there is absolutely no mention, implied or otherwise, that anyone else was a part of this chain of events. Even one of the drafts of ROTJ included the line from Obi Wan that states that his choice "had terrible consequences for the galaxy." Again, it wasn't so much Obi's choice as his agreement to fulfill Jinn's wishes. You might call it splitting hairs, but I see it the differences as being quite distinctive.

But even if we were to run with the idea that Obi was into the whole thing at the end of TPM, we are again shown his reluctance and doubt about Anakin throughout AOTC. Just one example:


OBI-WAN
I am concerned for my Padawan. He
is not ready to be on his own.

YODA
The Council is confident in this decision,
Obi-Wan.

MACE
He has exceptional skills. The
Council is confident in its
decision, Obi-Wan. If the
prophecy is true, he weill be the
one to bring balance to the Force.

OBI-WAN
But he still has much to learn.
And his abilities have made him...
well... arrogant. I realise now
what you and Master Yoda knew from
the beginning... the boy was too
old to start the training and...

Why would a guy who claims, in the OT, to have been the one to decide to train Anakin, be consistently expressing his doubt about the boy when A)he initially rebuffed Jinn's decision to train Anakin, B)only agreed to train the boy in Jinn's final death throes, C)is inconsistent by suddenly being adament about the training (as you mention), then D)does a 180 from that in AOTC to show his doubt all over again?


stillakid and scruffy-z, do you remember more specifics about George saying what he said about filling 6 hours of screentime ? I'm not recalling that part. Thanks. :)
I'll have to dig it out for quotes...

2-1B
12-18-2004, 12:52 AM
I can completely disagree because my comment had nothing to do with the OT or what it suggests. My disagreement is with your claim that Obi-Wan reluctantly takes on Ani's training, when the way I see it in TPM is that he quite eagerly takes on the task.

Since you mentioned the OT, Obi-Wan does say "I was wrong" and as far as AOTC goes . . . I think we see the beginning of that regret. I don't see it as a simple 180, just that over time he can see how dangerous this situation is becoming.

For the record, I don't deny that the OT suggested Obi was the one to find and train Anakin. Since that turned out to not be such a simple storyline (given what shows up in the first 2 prequels), I'm just tryng to see how it all connects.

stillakid
12-18-2004, 11:29 AM
My disagreement is with your claim that Obi-Wan reluctantly takes on Ani's training, when the way I see it in TPM is that he quite eagerly takes on the task.

Eagerly? :confused:


EXT. PALACE OF THE JEDI - BALCONY - SUNSET
OBI-WAN and QUI-GON stand outside the palace on a balcony.

OBI-WAN : The boy will not pass the Council's tests, Master, and you know it. He is far too old.
QUI-GON : Anakin will become A Jedi...I promise you.
OBI-WAN : Don't defy the Council, Master..not again.
QUI-GON : I will do what I must.
OBI-WAN : Master, you could be sitting on the Council by now if you would just follow the code. They will not go along with you this time.
QUI-GON : You still have much to learn, my young apprentice.



EXT. CORUSCANT - SENATE LANDING PLATFORM - NIGHT

QUI-GON, OBI-WAN, and ANAKIN stand on the landing platform outside the ship. ARTOO whistles a happy tune as he leans over the edge of the platform, watching the traffic. Suddenly, he leans over too far and falls overboard. After a moment, he reappears, using his on-board jets to propel himself back onto the landing platform. The wind whips at ANAKIN as he listens to the JEDI.

OBI-WAN : It is not disrespect, Master, it is the truth.
QUI-GON : From your point of view....
OBI-WAN : The boy is dangerous...they all sense it. Why can't you?



OBI-WAN rushes over to QUI-GON, who is dying.

OBI-WAN : Master! Master!
QUI-GON : It is too late...It's...
OBI-WAN : No!
QUI-GON : Obi-Wan promise...promise me you'll train the boy...
OBI-WAN : Yes, Master...
QUI-GON : He is the chosen one...he will...bring balance...train him!


INT. TURRET ROOM - NABOO PALACE - LATE DAY

The sun streams into the multi-windowed room at a low angle. It is not quite sunset. YODA paces before OBI-WAN, who is kneeling in the center of the room.

YODA : Confer on you, the level of Jedi Knight the Coucil does. But agree on you taking this boy as your Padawan learner, I do not.
OBI-WAN : Qui-Gon believed in him. I believe in Qui-Gon.
YODA : The Chosen One the boy may be; nevertheless, grave danger I fear in his training.
OBI-WAN : Master Yoda, I gave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin. Without the approval of the Council if I must.
YODA : Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you. Need that, you do not. Agree, the council does. Your apprentice, young Skywalker will be.

Now I'm going to assume that you're using this last scene to justify the "eagerly"...and heck, when it comes down to it, it really is the only instance where Obi Wan shows any interest in forcing the issue in both Prequel movies thus far...and the Animated Clone Wars series. But even here, he isn't so much reflecting the attitude of "I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi," as much as just being insistent about carrying out the wishes of his teacher.

And again, as I, Droid, and others have acknowledged many times before, anybody could make these trilogies fit together given enough latitude for rationalization or what have you. All we're pointing out (again) is that their continuities don't really mesh at all and no matter how much running time ROTS has can go back in time to fix the established story mistakes of I and II.

Lord_Setnom
12-20-2004, 11:45 AM
Couldn't agree more... there are more than a few gaps in this new trilogy. I'm still trying to figure out why Jabba the Hutt is so feared and apparently holds such power because really, in TPM he's just a fat slob who likes pod crashing... er... racing.

Boba Fett and his reputation can't possibly come from the fact that he's an annoying kid who was cloned from a resourceful yet not extraordinarily skilled bounty hunter. Back on Anakin-Vader. I think it's pretty understandable that he's a whole different character because like someone said before:

20 years have passed. He basically came back from the gates of the Hades realm. He is no longer being trained by wise men in cloaks who fight for justice, but by a cruel, nasty old man with bad teeth who only cares for power and wants his apprentice to become the powerful tool he can be. To do so, he must grow out of the whining, the attitude and the ego. Anakin brings balance to the Force and destroys the Emperor once he regains conscience of his old self. His free will is back so he uses it, rather than following Palpatine's program

JEDIpartner
12-21-2004, 08:05 AM
Sure... there are some things that are left unseen on the screen. As I stated before, twenty years have passed between the end of ROTS and ANH. Twenty years is a LOT of time for some serious s**t to go down. Can you imagine some of the things that Boba Fett may have done in that span of time?

In the last twenty years of my life I have, gone to university, went on several multi-national tours with a band I was in, had two significant relationships, bought a house and managed to make a name for myself in the local music scene as a solo artist. I'm just a normal guy... not a fictional bounty hunter or Sith Lord. :D

stillakid
12-21-2004, 09:10 AM
Sure... there are some things that are left unseen on the screen. As I stated before, twenty years have passed between the end of ROTS and ANH. Twenty years is a LOT of time for some serious s**t to go down. Can you imagine some of the things that Boba Fett may have done in that span of time?

In the last twenty years of my life I have, gone to university, went on several multi-national tours with a band I was in, had two significant relationships, bought a house and managed to make a name for myself in the local music scene as a solo artist. I'm just a normal guy... not a fictional bounty hunter or Sith Lord. :D


In my opinion, that's a weak way to excuse the Prequels to suggest that everything from plot points to character development occurs offscreen. Sure, lots of transitional events occur off screen or away from the eyes of others. But the foundations of one's behavior have to be established properly lest later behavior will make little sense.

In the example of Boba Fett, the general sense that a viewer gets from ESB is that this guy is a cut above the rest. Granted, years of extracurricular fan appreciation added some extra "kick arse" attitude to the character. But his unremarkable death in ROTJ and his quite boring (and unnecessary) origin story strip away that veneer of :cool: and reduce Fett (and his daddy) to something more like :glasses: .

When talking about Vader, the OT version of him is a guy who is rather sane and reasonable. We may not agree with his methods, but he never really killed anyone without a good reason. One might argue that the Prequel Anakin was this kind of person, but I saw a character who was quite different. He was an irrational and almost insane person who acted out of juvenile spite and raw emotion. Do people change and grow out of that kind of personality? Sure, but writing off that large of a change to "offscreen" events is lazy storytelling. This is a world of fiction where the writer has the responsibility to tell a complete tale. He isn't reflecting reality. He's creating a new one with fictional characters who represent a point of view regarding what's going on in the story. A writer doesn't have the luxury of just leaving crap out just because real life allows for it. A story needs to be more complete than that. That is part of the reason why the Prequels are worse rather than better.

JEDIpartner
12-21-2004, 01:07 PM
I agree to a certain extent, but these things happen within the frame of a single film as you see someone as a child and later as an adult.

stillakid
12-22-2004, 03:37 AM
I agree to a certain extent, but these things happen within the frame of a single film as you see someone as a child and later as an adult.

In your opinion, how does Lucas's method of introducing Anakin in I and II justify itself? I suppose what I mean is that if we look at the 4 hours of TPM and AOTC and see that very little was established about Anakin (and everything else really) that could easily have been done in 2 hours or less, why try to excuse the absence of vital character development by saying that it must have occurred when we weren't allowed to watch? :confused:

JEDIpartner
12-22-2004, 09:37 AM
Oh... I'm not saying that GL didn't pad out the the first two movies with a bit of gloss. I just don't think there is anything pertinent to the OT plots that we are missing regarding the development of Darth Vader or Boba Fett in the years between ROTS and ANH.

Droid
12-22-2004, 10:01 AM
As stillakid indicated, part of the problem is that Boba Fett never should have been developed. The great thing about Boba Fett was the mystique. Frankly, having him in Jedi was a mistake if he was just going to accidentally falll in the Sarlaac. Fleshing out Fett ruins the mystique. We don't need to see what's under the helmet and never should have seen what was under the helmet. I thought putting him in A New Hope was a mistake too.

But Anakin's progression into Vader needed to be developed. George claims that the whole saga is Anakin's story. Some argue with that. Some would say it was about the intergalactic struggle of the Rebellion against the Empire. Or some would say it was about Luke Skywalker's coming of age. But if Star Wars is about Anakin as Lucas says, the main thing - and only thing - that REALLY needed to get done in the prequels was showing how the "good man" that was Anakin Skywalker, the "good friend" of Obi-wan Kenobi, was "seduced by the Dark Side of the Force" and became "twisted and evil". We have not seen that and that cannot get done in Revenge of the Sith.

We could argue about "the good man", but I think it has not really been shown. I don't think the "good friend" has been done at all. And it is too late in the last act.

George made a terrible mistake having Anakin be a boy in the Phantom Menace. He made a terrible mistake having Qui-Gon assume Obi-wan's role. He made a terrible mistake having Obi-wan not really want to train Anakin. He made a terrible mistake having Obi-wan and Anakin bicker through the entire middle act.

The failure to show Anakin's development is kind of like the only thing that George claims needed to happen in Attack of the Clones was that Anakin and Padme fell in love. As it is, Anakin was obsessed with Padme and his feelings for her were played as creepy. Padme had no reason at all to love Anakin and only fell for him once he confessed he had slaughtered a tribe of Tusken Raiders. And why he couldn't have fallen in love with her as he watched her be selfless and why she couldn't have fallen for him as she watched his acts of bravery in some sort of setting that moved the plot is beyond me. We did not need at least an hour of the two talking in various forced romantic settings such as lakes, dinners, fires, and fields by waterfalls. I would like someone here to tell me they thought the conversations between Anakin and Padme were romantic. I would like someone to tell me they enjoyed the rolling in the grass sequence. Ugh.

I like the prequels, but I don't get how anyone could defend them as perfect or claim they match up beautifully with the original trilogy dialogue. I think Attack of the Clones was better than Phantom Menace and I think Revenge of the Sith will be better than Attack of the Clones. That's progress.

stillakid
12-22-2004, 11:20 AM
True, everything you said, but I wonder...


That's progress.

...progress toward what? It should be progress toward linking seamlessly with ANH, but it tends more like Metalstorm: the Destruction of Jared-Syn. ;)

aceguide
12-22-2004, 02:49 PM
A lot of energy in this thread is arguing the maturation of Anakin to Vader.

So - those of you that see there being a problem in that process please help me understand:

How did Luke so easily mature from a whiney farm boy (ANH/ESB) to a powerful Jedi (ROTJ) in just a few short years?

I see no problem with the Anakin character evolving to the ANH Vader and am not overly concerned about how it is addressed in ROTS. To me it is the fall that is central to this story. Vader's rise to power only just begins in this installment, it is solidified by the time we see him again.

jedi master sal
12-22-2004, 04:01 PM
While you may not like thi, here's the answer to the 20 years between:

TV Show

Personally I'd like a Star Wars 3.5 (movie), but we all know that isn't going to happen.

-Sal

stillakid
12-22-2004, 04:15 PM
A lot of energy in this thread is arguing the maturation of Anakin to Vader.

So - those of you that see there being a problem in that process please help me understand:

How did Luke so easily mature from a whiney farm boy (ANH/ESB) to a powerful Jedi (ROTJ) in just a few short years?

I see no problem with the Anakin character evolving to the ANH Vader and am not overly concerned about how it is addressed in ROTS. To me it is the fall that is central to this story. Vader's rise to power only just begins in this installment, it is solidified by the time we see him again.


Yes, well, a lot of energy is devoted to this question because it is the motivating plot line of the Prequels.

The difference between Luke's progress and Anakin's has absolutely nothing to do with the quantitative length of time it takes for each to evolve. Obviously both do. The problem is that the Prequels have thus far established a pre-Darth Vader as someone who doesn't accurately reflect an individual who has the potential to become Darth Vader. It's like asking us to believe that, for example, Richie Cunningham would grow up to become Jack the Ripper.

Specific to Star Wars, we are given a young and completely innocent kid to begin with. Fair enough. But there are absolutely NO transitional elements ONSCREEN to get us plausibly from Jake-akin to Hayd-akin. Yeah, obviously some years pass in which, theoretically, Jake the Innocent could become Hayden the Jackarse, but when we're looking at a work of fiction, it is the author's job to include clues or hints as to a character's potential in early incarnations. So had we seen Jake-akin show even the remotest sign of the bipolar brat that he would become just one movie later, then I wouldn't whine nearly half as much about this problem as I do now. But TPM showed us nothing but a one-note yippee-skippy boy-wonder. The obvious question that is never answered is what happened to that adorable little boy in the intervening years to turn him into such a narcissistic teenager filled with a sense of entitlement? That "sudden" 180 made no sense at all. And the only "excuses" I hear in defense of this absence of character development is that it "happened offscreen." Great. Maybe it did, but that's sh*tt* storytelling.

In contrast, we saw Luke in the course of just one film go from naive whiny farmboy to a guy who consciously accepted the mantle of manhood and all the unfortunate responsibility that goes with it. The following sequels (ESB and ROTJ) are just expanding on that established character arc that we see the kernel of in ANH. So, all of that is acceptable and doesn't inspire questions in the audience such as, "why is Luke suddenly different?" And heck, if we really wanted to delve into details, arguably Luke's most dramatic "change" comes at the very top of ROTJ before we even see him. It is established that Luke considers himself (perhaps) to be a full fledged Jedi, but to take the curse off of it, Kasdan wrote in an "aside" for Solo to utter: "Jedi Knight? I'm out of it for a little while and everybody gets delusions of grandeur." Yet Luke's transition from ANH to ESB made complete sense as he had just the beginnings of training which we saw him get in ANH. ESB actually SHOWS us his advanced training and subsequent emotional conflict (with Vader) which transitions us to his more controlled and mature personae in ROTJ. One film sets up the next which sets up the next. That's the way you write a story, but it is what the Prequels have failed to do thus far. They have not adequately followed the established character continuity nor has TPM led convincingly into AOTC.

Based on this, the foundation of the Prequels is already on the wrong path meaning that ROTS could be 12 hours long and never be able to undo the damage that has already been done. The two trilogies are mutually exclusive entities at this point. One of them is Expanded Universe material and it is up to the viewer to choose for themselves which continuity and storytelling style they relegate to which category. :)

Droid
12-22-2004, 05:22 PM
I also tire of folks saying that some plot point was fleshed out in a book somewhere so that the movies are somehow excused.

I don't know stillakid, if you look at one of the last shots of Jake Lloyd in The Phantom Menace, at the Naboo Celebration, he is kind of giving Padme a leer. That's all the transition we should need I guess. :frus:

They could have planted the seed in the Phantom Menace so easily. Perhaps Anakin could have cheated somehow in the pod race to win, because he believed that was for the greater good. SOMETHING.

aceguide
12-23-2004, 09:27 AM
Stilla -

I hear you.

I do feel that there is a progression of Anakin throughout the prequels that can, in fact, be exclusive of the Dark Lord of the Sith in IV, V & VI. Something must trigger his movement from Jedi to Dark lord. We have seen his problems with authoruty, we know that his mothers death affected him enough to slaughter an entire camp of sandpeople and we assume that events in EPIII bring him to a life & death duel with his friend and master. It is that journey, the justufucation of moving to the dark side, that is the importnat prequel path.

From EPIII to EPIV the empire has systematically taken over the galaxy. There is no secret there. Vader has been at the helm of that carnage. It is reasonable to belive that his maturation from Ani to the Vader we know would happen as a result of these events.

stillakid
12-23-2004, 12:37 PM
Stilla -

I hear you.

I do feel that there is a progression of Anakin throughout the prequels that can, in fact, be exclusive of the Dark Lord of the Sith in IV, V & VI. Something must trigger his movement from Jedi to Dark lord. We have seen his problems with authoruty, we know that his mothers death affected him enough to slaughter an entire camp of sandpeople and we assume that events in EPIII bring him to a life & death duel with his friend and master. It is that journey, the justufucation of moving to the dark side, that is the importnat prequel path.

From EPIII to EPIV the empire has systematically taken over the galaxy. There is no secret there. Vader has been at the helm of that carnage. It is reasonable to belive that his maturation from Ani to the Vader we know would happen as a result of these events.

Thanks. :) And I do hear what you're getting at. Not to belittle it, but I've heard it before and don't buy it. Why? Because the A #1 lesson that the OT tried to drill into Luke's and our heads was that one could be seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. Also, specific to Anakin, we are led to believe in the OT that Palpatine seduced Anakin to the Dark Side. However, in AOTC, Anakin manages to be a jackarse all on his own. Nobody has to "seduce" him or anything. He succumbs to his own frailties and Palpatine is just there to pick up the pieces and exploit the opportunity. Anakin isn't being seduced by the Dark Side. He is just a maniacal jerk no matter what. And as I stated previously, there is no hint of this characteristic present in the Jake Lloyd version of the character. Similarily, there is no indication of this rash behavior in any of the Darth Vader scenes from the OT either. Hayd-akin is an island unto himself.

aceguide
12-24-2004, 08:36 AM
Points well taken - and I'm hardly here to say that the prequels are works of art in character development or plot consistency. However...

I think EPIII IS the seduction. The closest Luke gets to "crossing over" is when he becomes enraged with Darth at the and of Jedi. I always felt that to be seduced by the dark side you had to have a character flaw.

EPI Ani is just a kid who doesn't know any better. He is, however, arrogant.

By EPII he has "matured" into a punk who has no respect for athority and is only more arrogant. He thinks he is the end-all of the universe.

Sets up EPII and the seduction. The flaw is there - specifically the arrogance and oversized self-worth. Palpi just needs to nudge him to a place where he (Ani) believes that he deserves. It just so happens that the dark side has better perks.

stillakid
12-24-2004, 10:03 AM
Points well taken - and I'm hardly here to say that the prequels are works of art in character development or plot consistency. However...

I think EPIII IS the seduction.
Well, yeah. It's hard to talk about what happens in III for obvious reasons. But arguably, Hayd-akin is clearly taking that road all by his lonesome in AOTC. Others here have made that argument already, that the death of his mother, the killing of the Sandpeople, Obi Wan's "holding him back," etc. are all pushing his buttons and making him "go bad." Well, that may be true and certainly appears to be so in AOTC, but it doesn't follow what we were led to believe in the OT; that Anakin would be seduced by the dark side of the Force...seeing the quick and easy path, yada yada yada. Instead, he is just acting out in juvenile fashion anytime he doesn't get his way. While that might be typical teenage behavior, it isn't "extraordinary" in the way we would expect a sweet innocent kid (Jake-akin) to be "seduced" by the Dark Side.


The closest Luke gets to "crossing over" is when he becomes enraged with Darth at the and of Jedi. I always felt that to be seduced by the dark side you had to have a character flaw.
Yes, and Luke's flaw was the quest for adventure and the impatience to run out to find it. That's what Yoda was afraid of on Dagobah. He knew that while Luke had most of the physical skills he would need, his mind wasn't in the right place yet. It was putty in Vader's capable hands. But Luke took the high road, what he thought was martyrdom for a few seconds, and lived to fight another day. His step into the unknown was the key to his growing up finally. He was no longer afraid to face his enemy (Vader) like he was in ESB.

BUT, Vader was small potatoes next to the Emperor. Luke was strong and confident yet Palpatine managed to goad him into crossing over to the Dark Side. Yes, he did. The moment that Luke took his saber and attacked was the moment. And once you start down the darkpath...you know the rest. But anyway, Luke wasn't willing to take the high road at this instant. He decided to fight. Well, he did beat down Vader, but once again, the powerful Palpatine stepped in to hand Luke his hat. For the second time, Luke decided to take the high road by not fighting. This time the martyrdom would be real...except that Vader was there to save him. Point being in all of this is that Palpatine was instrumental in taking a "normal" character (Luke) and, well, seducing him to do bad things.

The difference here is that in AOTC, Palpatine isn't doing that to Anakin. Hayd-akin never really is a "normal" character that we can relate to in any way. He's a spoiled brat who acts out like a 2 year old. Okay, some people do that, but where's Palpatine in all of this? Isn't Palpatine supposed to be there, in the Prequels, goading Anakin on? Seducing him to do "bad things?" Palpatine is off in the distance, busy with his own schemes. Every once in a while, he and Anakin meet and they talk, but no real "seducing" is going on. Heck, the Animated Clone Wars series did a better job of doing this in 60 seconds than 4 hours of Prequels have done so far.


EPI Ani is just a kid who doesn't know any better. He is, however, arrogant.
When?


By EPII he has "matured" into a punk who has no respect for athority and is only more arrogant. He thinks he is the end-all of the universe.
No argument there. And again, when did we see any real inkling of this in Jake-akin? And again, where is Palpatine who is supposed to be the one goading our innocent Jake-akin into the deplorable Hayd-akin?


Sets up EPII and the seduction. The flaw is there - specifically the arrogance and oversized self-worth. Palpi just needs to nudge him to a place where he (Ani) believes that he deserves. It just so happens that the dark side has better perks.
Yes, Anakin has a sense of entitlement. No doubt about that. But where did it come from? Why haven't I or II shown us that transition from Richie-Cunningham-Anakin to Ron-Artest-Hayd-akin? And where is Palpatine in I and II to push Anakin-the-Innocent into Anakin-the-Loser? Like I said before, Anakin is a screw up all on his own and Palpatine is just lingering in the margins waiting to exploit him for his own ends. A fine story on its own, I'm sure. However it isn't what we were told would happen which is why I continue to maintain that with these two very distinctly different trilogies, never the twain shall meet.

scruffziller
12-24-2004, 10:08 AM
Palpatine is just there to pick up the pieces and exploit the opportunity.
So you are saying that all Palpy did(from the progression of the prequels) was light the fuse on the setup bom, pop the pimple, throw gasoline on the fire.:D

stillakid
12-24-2004, 10:31 AM
So you are saying that all Palpy did(from the progression of the prequels) was light the fuse on the setup bom, pop the pimple, throw gasoline on the fire.:D

I don't know that he even did that. We get 2 moments of Palps and Ani together so far:

1. The end of TPM when Palps walks past Ani and says that he'll be watching his career closely.

2.

INTERIOR: SENATE BUILDING, PALPATINE'S OFFICE - DAY

ANAKIN and PALPATINE stand at the window of PALPATINE'S
office and look out over the vast city.


PALPATINE
I will talk to her. Senator Amidala will not
refuse an executive order. I know her well enough to assure
you of that.

ANAKIN
Thank you, your Excellency.

PALPATINE
And so, my young Padawan, they have finally
given you an assignment. Your patience has paid off.

ANAKIN
Your guidance more than my patience.

PALPATINE
You don't need guidance, Anakin. In time you
will learn to trust your feelings. Then you will be
invincible. I have said it many times, you are the most
gifted Jedi I have ever met.

PALPATINE and ANAKIN turn away from the window and walk
through PALPATINE'S office towards the door.


ANAKIN
Thank you, your Excellency.

PALPATINE
I see you becoming the greatest of all the Jedi,
Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda.

So, from this one brief exchange, we see that Palpatine is egging Anakin on. But from everything else we've seen leading up to this moment, Anakin is already an arrogant arse. Without Palpatine telling him how great he is, Anakin already thinks that he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Where exactly is the "seduction?" What am I missing here? Is it me? :ermm:

DarthQuack
12-24-2004, 09:11 PM
The seduction seems to be so hidden from us, like it all happens off camera....hopefully in ROTS we will see all we need to, but its not likely I'm sure....

aceguide
12-28-2004, 08:21 AM
Another reference to the Ani/Palpi relationship is in Padme's apartment at the beginning of EPII. Anakin belives Palpatine is a great man to which OB1 rebuts that he is nothing more than a politician.

This sequence implies that a relationship has formed between the padawan and the Chancelor. I would have to agree that the development of such a critical relationship deserves some screen time but would predict that we will see some of that in EPIII.

EPI Anakin arrogence:

Confidence and arrogence are closely tied. Anakin can fix anything, he will win the pod race, he will be a great jedi... Is this confidence or verging on something not quite as sincere? I have always felt so.

I will contend again that there has been no direct seduction and that we will finally be privey to it in EPIII. I don't think there's been any reaason for the Emperor to overtly seduce Ani - he's travelling to the dark side just fine on his own. Palpi will just need to show him the dark at an opportune moment and it will be done.

I think that Anakin's "free will" movement to the dark side is critical in explaining his ability to "fin the good within him" in Jedi.

scruffziller
12-28-2004, 09:32 AM
Anakin is already an arrogant arse. Without Palpatine telling him how great he is, Anakin already thinks that he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Where exactly is the "seduction?" What am I missing here? Is it me? :ermm:
I think there is more evidence of the seduction/egging on in THE CLONE WARS cartoons.

stillakid
12-28-2004, 07:59 PM
I think there is more evidence of the seduction/egging on in THE CLONE WARS cartoons.

Which GL didn't write. :ermm:

aceguide
12-29-2004, 07:44 AM
Now if he would only stop directing... :rolleyes:

scruffziller
12-31-2004, 08:50 AM
Which GL didn't write.(CLONE WARS cartoons) :ermm:
Now STILLA, what is your opinion on the CLONE WARS cartoons in regards to the subject. Do you think the writers on those were doing a better job as far as the seduction goes or even just the general direction of linking the 2 trilogies?

stillakid
12-31-2004, 10:28 AM
Now STILLA, what is your opinion on the CLONE WARS cartoons in regards to the subject. Do you think the writers on those were doing a better job as far as the seduction goes or even just the general direction of linking the 2 trilogies?

First, thank you for your interest in what I have to say. :D

As for Clone Wars, I haven't seen them for awhile so I'm going off of memory. Because of time constraints, the writers had to be very economical in how they presented the information. But that wasn't a bad thing in this case for a couple of reasons. One is that the animated series by and large was full of action sequences. For better or worse, the "plot" background was set up already by the feature (AOTC). Second, the animated series needed to be "thin" because, well, just like the feature, there really isn't that much story to use. Everything we saw in TPM and AOTC could easily have been compressed into 90 minutes or so. More is not necessarily better as the IMAX cut of AOTC illustrated.

But the main issue still revolves around Anakin. Was he "seduced" to the dark side of the Force? Was he seduced by Palpatine? Did Obi Wan eagerly train Anakin and only lose his student because of this so-called seduction? Well, the features clearly don't support any of those ideas set up by the OT. But does the animated series? Sort of. We get a couple more succinct moments with Anakin and Palpatine where Palps is stroking Anakin's ego. Plus we have Obi Wan right off the bat telling Anakin point blank that the problem isn't his skill, but rather his maturity that's "holding him back." That's a point that AOTC fails to make repeatedly, althought it tries a couple of times.

But still, even though the animated series was written far better than AOTC or TPM, it still is weighted down by Anakin being a jerk on his own. There is still no true seduction of a good man turning him into an evil man. The foundation GL set up for these Prequels is fundamentally flawed and nothing short of Episode III calling I and II a big dream sequence can fix it.

scruffziller
12-31-2004, 02:03 PM
First, thank you for your interest in what I have to say. :D

Thanx for thanking me.:)

I don't always handle things well on the stuff that I disagree with people because their passion for believing that "they are right" overwhelms me and makes me believe I am wrong just on that factor alone and I can't offer any more insight to my side of the story. But what I like is when I agree with someone on a subject and they continue to offer more insight into what I already know which I prefer those discussions rather than an argument any day.:)

Kidhuman
01-01-2005, 08:48 AM
Thanx for thanking me.:)

I don't always handle things well on the stuff that I disagree with people because their passion for believing that "they are right" overwhelms me and makes me believe I am wrong just on that factor alone and I can't offer any more insight to my side of the story. But what I like is when I agree with someone on a subject and they continue to offer more insight into what I already know which I prefer those discussions rather than an argument any day.:)

SO in essence you are being seduced to the dark side? :beard: :D