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stillakid
01-04-2005, 11:23 AM
Old Ben says to Vader, "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

Okay. Sounds ominous. But what did he mean? Apart from being a disembodied voice (ala Jiminy Cricket) and appearing as a ghost, what can a dead Jedi do? Now one cool thing that I noticed was that in ROTJ, Spirit Ben actually sat down on a rock or tree. I would have thought that a spirit might fall right through a tangible object. So that's pretty cool. Powerful? I don't know, but interesting nonetheless...

So just how powerful can a dead Jedi be?

2-1B
01-04-2005, 11:35 AM
Powerful enough to whisper in lil' Skywalker's ear to "Use the Force" vs. DS1 but NOT powerful enough to pull the little guy out of the snow. :D

Then again, he did serve as a connection to finding Yoda . . .

Slicker
01-04-2005, 12:23 PM
Ben may have sensed the potential in Luke knowing that he'd be more powerful than himself so he could live vicariously through him. He never said how he would become more powerful just that he would somehow become more powerful.

TheDarthVader
01-04-2005, 01:38 PM
Using my thesaurus, I have found your answer! :) It was a great question. This is what I think he meant:
INVINCIBLE, ABLE-BODIED, INDOMITABLE, VIGOROUS, EFFECTIVE
INVINCIBLE- can not kill or harm a spiritual being
ABLE-BODIED- can appear when and where he needs to, even over water
INDOMITABLE- can not be controlled by anyone
VIGOROUS- never gets tired, sleepy, or hungry
EFFECTIVE- guides with insight

Am I in the ballpark? Yes? No? Feedback please.

B.
TDV

Sith Lord 0498
01-04-2005, 01:55 PM
I think Obi-Wan was referring to the fact that he knew he would become one with the Force and retain his identity. In a sense, he would become the Force. That's something more powerful than any living Jedi or Sith can attain. It's also interesting if you think back to Anakin's pledge in AOTC to "stop people from dying." Even though his physical body is gone, Obi-Wan didn't truly "die." He discovered the secret before Anakin could.

Droid
01-04-2005, 01:56 PM
I think it is safe to say that Ben was more powerful as a spirit than as a living being.

As a spirit, he was able to help Luke throughout his development into a Jedi. Vader (and Palpatine) hunted for Luke for years in an attempt to influence him while Ben could be with him all the time.

1. Ben perhaps saved Luke's life by convincing him to run rather than fight
on the Death Star.
2. He convinced Luke to turn off his targeting computer, destroying the
Death Star, saving the Rebellion, yada yada yada. Living Ben sure
wouldn't have fit in that cockpit with Luke.
3. He got Luke to go to Yoda.
4. He may have convinced Yoda to train Luke (assuming that Yoda really
wasn't going to train Luke and Ben really convinced Yoda to train him).
5. He told Luke where to find his sister.

I think Ben was more powerful dead than alive, but also, Ben was addressing Vader, "more powerful than YOU can possibly imagine". Vader presumably didn't know that Jedi became spirits. For Vader, death might have been the end. Ben was saying, "You can't beat me, because even if you kill me, I will live on, you short sighted idiot."

Also, perhaps Ben wanted to give Luke a big reason to hate Vader. Maybe Ben knew (or predicted) that eventually Luke would find out Vader was his father and that Vader hadn't really killed him as Obi-wan originally said. Wanting to prevent Luke trying to redeem daddy (as happened, and assuming from Ben's "point of view" Vader could not be redeemed), he gave Luke a real good reason to hate Vader. You can see the payoff of Ben's possible strategy on Cloud City. Vader holds his saber over Luke, "You are beaten. Don't let yourself be destroyed as Obi-wan did." This really ticked Luke off and he gets back into the fight. Seconds later he would land the only blow on Vader he got at Cloud City.

Exhaust Port
01-04-2005, 04:14 PM
We better get an explanation of the ghost/Jedi thing in the next movie.

Droid
01-04-2005, 04:49 PM
I agree that at this point, given that Qui-Gon and no Jedi in the prequels disappeared, yes we now need an explanation. However, the original trilogy left no need for an explanation of the ghost/spirit thing.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-04-2005, 04:49 PM
Old Ben says to Vader, "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

Okay. Sounds ominous. But what did he mean? Apart from being a disembodied voice (ala Jiminy Cricket) and appearing as a ghost, what can a dead Jedi do? Now one cool thing that I noticed was that in ROTJ, Spirit Ben actually sat down on a rock or tree. I would have thought that a spirit might fall right through a tangible object. So that's pretty cool. Powerful? I don't know, but interesting nonetheless...

So just how powerful can a dead Jedi be?
What's this? Stillakid actually finding fault with the OT, and not the PT? Well, I never! ;) :D

I think he meant that he could do whatever he wanted, and help Luke in more ways than he could in flesh & blood. Luke wouldn't know about Yoda if not for old Ben so I say that's good?

stillakid
01-04-2005, 05:01 PM
1. Ben perhaps saved Luke's life by convincing him to run rather than fight
on the Death Star.
2. He convinced Luke to turn off his targeting computer, destroying the
Death Star, saving the Rebellion, yada yada yada. Living Ben sure
wouldn't have fit in that cockpit with Luke.
3. He got Luke to go to Yoda.
4. He may have convinced Yoda to train Luke (assuming that Yoda really
wasn't going to train Luke and Ben really convinced Yoda to train him).
5. He told Luke where to find his sister.

Yeah, but Ben coulda done all that stuff while he was alive.


Ben was saying, "You can't beat me, because even if you kill me, I will live on, you short sighted idiot."

But I personally think that that (above) is the gist of it. :D




What's this? Stillakid actually finding fault with the OT, and not the PT? Well, I never!
I'm an equal opportunity critiquer. :D



I think he meant that he could do whatever he wanted, and help Luke in more ways than he could in flesh & blood.

Yeah, that. But what did he really do as a ghost that he couldn't have done as a living being?

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-04-2005, 05:54 PM
I was thinking of being able to be with Luke wherever he chose, but then I remembered that comlinks and holograms existed in SW. Maybe Ben never used them, and the only way to talk to someone was face-to-face? I thought I heard that the real reason Obi-Wan died was because Lucas couldn't think of what to do with him anymore. Maybe that was just meant to be a throwaway line. ;) :crazed:

TheDarthVader
01-05-2005, 11:35 AM
Maybe that was just meant to be a throwaway line. ;) :crazed:

See page 1 for my answer. All of those are synonymous with powerful. That is what Lucas was refering to (the greater powers of the spirit compared to flesh and bone=more powerful).
But since no one seems to grasp that but me, perhaps it should have been a throw away line! ;) :) j/k

B.
TDV

JediTricks
01-05-2005, 04:23 PM
What powers does Obi-Wan seem to possess as a spirit that he does not as a living being? He doesn't seem to manipulate the Force to give Luke an edge, he doesn't even accompany the boy when the fight is taken to Vader. So my best guess is that Obi-Wan knew that as a spirit, he could tap into the wisdom of the Force to help Luke in ways that he couldn't as a living being.


TDV, I don't think any of those synonyms really comes close to touching what Ben was putting out there with that line. He's invincible, but so what, he seems to also be intangible which is fairly useless, it's not like he blocks Vader's or Palpatine's access to the Force. He's able-bodied except when Luke needs him to help directly confront Vader and the Emperor, then all of a sudden he's a no-show. We're not sure if he's indomitable or not as a part of the Force, but was he ever as a living being? And what good is being vigorous if he's a useless intangible energy mass? As for being effective, Ben's spirit is effective only in a way that makes Luke powerful, not Ben. None of those really say "powerful" to me.

Droid
01-06-2005, 08:34 AM
Ben let himself be destroyed because he knew that at that point he was not as important as Luke. He was selflessly putting Luke's development before his own life. Would Luke have thrown his saber away and let the Emperor try to kill him if he had not seen Ben be cut down? I'm not so sure. To me there were echoes of Obi-wan in Luke's refusal to fight.

Also as I said before, Ben knew Luke would probably find out about Vader being his father someday. Luke knowing Vader had killed Ben was a strong backstop against Luke going out on a mission Obi-wan believed foolish - to try and redeem Vader. Ben likely thought Luke needed to see firsthand how evil Vader was. And as I said, Luke's anger over Vader killing Ben gave Luke the gumption to keep fighting Vader at a crucial moment on Cloud City.

As I said before, Ben's power came in his ability to be with Luke at all times, nudging him in the right direction, keeping him on the right track. Vader and the Emperor, with all their power, with all the power of the Empire, couldn't even find Luke, let alone have the direct impact Ben was able to have on him.

And after Vader killed him, Ben was eternal. Presumably, had Vader died while still evil he would have been gone. To me there is power in immortality.

Also, I still say the point is that Ben said, "more powerful than you can possibly imagine". Perhaps in Vader's mind, a dead Jedi had no power. So if Ben had any power as a dead Jedi it was more power than Vader could imagine. Ben knew that a Jedi's power in the Force could extend beyond death; presumably Vader didn't. Therefore, once Vader struck Ben down Ben was more powerful than Vader could possibly imagine.

The more interesting question for me is that Vader said, "Escape is not his plan." If Obi-wan knew at the time he got on the Death Star that he was not going to survive and Vader presumably knew that Obi-wan did not intend to survive, what exactly did Vader think Obi-wan was up to?

stillakid
01-06-2005, 08:43 AM
The more interesting question for me is that Vader said, "Escape is not his plan." If Obi-wan knew at the time he got on the Death Star that he was not going to survive and Vader presumably knew that Obi-wan did not intend to survive, what exactly did Vader think Obi-wan was up to?

Cool. Very nice. :cool: I hadn't thought of that part. I'm sure that Vader knew or figured out that Obi hadn't flown that piece of junk by himself. So maybe he had brought an rescue party for the Princess. Which is why the homing beacon was put on board and the "escape" was allowed. But as to Vader fighting Ben, it's an interesting question because it really comes down to why Vader wanted to take him on. Conceivably, it's the first time they've met since the pre-mask battle, so it could be as simple as anxious revenge. Or Vader might just be hypothosizing that Obi came to kill him off which inspired the "You should not have come back," line. Hmm... :ermm:

Droid
01-06-2005, 09:53 AM
Maybe some part of Vader hoped that Obi-wan WOULD kill him, finally end all the pain.

Maybe Vader hoped that Obi-wan would try to redeem him, that he could have some connection with his "good friend".

Maybe Vader wanted to kill the jerk who was always "holding him back"!

Maybe hadn't had a good, old fashioned Jedi throw down in so long he was looking forward to a really good fight and all he got was a weak, old man.

TheDarthVader
01-08-2005, 06:36 PM
TDV, I don't think any of those synonyms really comes close to touching what Ben was putting out there with that line. He's invincible, but so what, he seems to also be intangible which is fairly useless, it's not like he blocks Vader's or Palpatine's access to the Force. He's able-bodied except when Luke needs him to help directly confront Vader and the Emperor, then all of a sudden he's a no-show. We're not sure if he's indomitable or not as a part of the Force, but was he ever as a living being? And what good is being vigorous if he's a useless intangible energy mass? As for being effective, Ben's spirit is effective only in a way that makes Luke powerful, not Ben. None of those really say "powerful" to me.

I don't think so. He meant all of this rolled into one package. And now my rebuttal...
1. "I am getting too old for this sort of thing."- Ben Kenobi ANH
Seems like his body is giving out on him. He grunts as he gets up slowly from his seat at his home before giving Luke the lightsaber. When in a lightsaber battle, we don't see the agile kenobi of episodes one or two. He is old now and not as agile . Able-bodied is the same thing as agile. Thus synonymous with powerful. If someone is not able-bodied, they are usually not powerful. Look at FDR. He lost some of his power after that disease (can't remember which one) put him in a wheel chair. He had to rest and could not accomplish as many tasks.
2. Invincible...you even admit he is invincible. Maybe he can not interfere, but so what! He can never die or be harmed. That is power.
3. Indomitable...in episode two he was put in a restraint by Count Dooku. As a spirit, he can not be held prisoneer or bent to anyone's will. He can not be held captive or hostage. These words: captive, hostage, and restraint, are words totally opposite of indomitable. Thus Kenobi is indomitable as a spirit. We do know this.
4. Vigorous...see answer one.
5. Effective...yes Kenobi is effective in episode four and five. He tells Luke to run instead of fight in order to perserve Luke's safety. Luke is very important. This next part may be my opinion, but I feel like Kenobi's spirit energy helped Solo find Luke on Hoth. Why? Because RIGHT AFTER Kenobi talks to Luke and disappears Solo appears. Also, Kenobi is effective in giving direction to Luke in his life. "You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda."-Ben Kenobi ESB

See? All of this rolled into one definitely defines Kenobi's statement on "powerful". These words are all close in meaning. :) ;)

B.
TDV

stillakid
01-08-2005, 07:06 PM
I don't think so. He meant all of this rolled into one package. And now my rebuttal...
1. "I am getting too old for this sort of thing."- Ben Kenobi ANH
Seems like his body is giving out on him. He grunts as he gets up slowly from his seat at his home before giving Luke the lightsaber. When in a lightsaber battle, we don't see the agile kenobi of episodes one or two. He is old now and not as agile . Able-bodied is the same thing as agile. Thus synonymous with powerful. If someone is not able-bodied, they are usually not powerful. Look at FDR. He lost some of his power after that disease (can't remember which one) put him in a wheel chair. He had to rest and could not accomplish as many tasks.
2. Invincible...you even admit he is invincible. Maybe he can not interfere, but so what! He can never die or be harmed. That is power.
3. Indomitable...in episode two he was put in a restraint by Count Dooku. As a spirit, he can not be held prisoneer or bent to anyone's will. He can not be held captive or hostage. These words: captive, hostage, and restraint, are words totally opposite of indomitable. Thus Kenobi is indomitable as a spirit. We do know this.
4. Vigorous...see answer one.
5. Effective...yes Kenobi is effective in episode four and five. He tells Luke to run instead of fight in order to perserve Luke's safety. Luke is very important. This next part may be my opinion, but I feel like Kenobi's spirit energy helped Solo find Luke on Hoth. Why? Because RIGHT AFTER Kenobi talks to Luke and disappears Solo appears. Also, Kenobi is effective in giving direction to Luke in his life. "You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda."-Ben Kenobi ESB

See? All of this rolled into one definitely defines Kenobi's statement on "powerful". These words are all close in meaning. :) ;)

B.
TDV
Yeah, okay, but he still doesn't really do anything in death that he couldn't have in life. Let's look at what he accomplished in death for a sec.

1. "Run Luke, run!" He could've easily shouted that from across the hanger bay.

2. "Use the Force, Luke. Let go." He could've said that over the radio from the Yavin control room.

3. "You will go to the Dagobah system. You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." The point of this was to impart the information that Luke can get more training...that Ben wasn't the last teacher left in the galaxy. Another plot device that could have accomplished this would have been a reference in a diary or ledger that Ben kept in his place on Tatooine. Luke could have had reason to go back to the abode to see if there was any other Jedi paraphenalia lying around.

4. On Dagobah, he butts in to get Yoda to train Luke. "So was I if you remember."..."He will learn patience." Again, if he was alive, he could have done that too. But Yoda knew Luke was on his way, so despite the stubborness, he probably would have trained him anyway. What choice did they really have?

5. On Dagobah, Luke is leaving and Spirit Ben tells Luke that he can not interfere if he faces Vader. Now of all times that a disembodied Jedi ghost could be most helpful, this would be it. But Ben stays away and sends Luke off with more of the same Jedi bumper sticker sayings. Nothing special there.

6. Ben coughs up the info on Anakin after Yoda dies. While helpful, not exactly an example of being "more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

7. Spirit Ben fades into view with Spirit Yoda and Spirit Anakin (the old one, not that Hayden nonsense. ;) ) Now most people can't fade into view once dead, so if you want to count superpower as being "more powerful than you can possibly imagine" then okay. But it doesn't seem like that helpful of a superpower to me.

JediTricks
01-09-2005, 10:13 PM
1. "I am getting too old for this sort of thing."- Ben Kenobi ANH
Seems like his body is giving out on him. He grunts as he gets up slowly from his seat at his home before giving Luke the lightsaber. When in a lightsaber battle, we don't see the agile kenobi of episodes one or two. He is old now and not as agile . Able-bodied is the same thing as agile. Thus synonymous with powerful. If someone is not able-bodied, they are usually not powerful. Look at FDR. He lost some of his power after that disease (can't remember which one) put him in a wheel chair. He had to rest and could not accomplish as many tasks.But he didn't need to be able-bodied to be powerful, he commanded a vast army against oppressive forces and might have dropped atomic weapons if he hadn't died.


2. Invincible...you even admit he is invincible. Maybe he can not interfere, but so what! He can never die or be harmed. That is power. I disagree, observing life but not living it is powerless.


3. Indomitable...in episode two he was put in a restraint by Count Dooku. As a spirit, he can not be held prisoneer or bent to anyone's will. He can not be held captive or hostage. These words: captive, hostage, and restraint, are words totally opposite of indomitable. Thus Kenobi is indomitable as a spirit. We do know this. But in Ep 2 we didn't see him give in to Dooku's will when he was captured. Your definition was "can not be controlled by anyone" and while he was catpured, he wasn't bent to Dooku's will. I'll give you half-credit, but not being able to be captured doesn't sound anything like "powerful" to me. John Gotti was powerful even AFTER he was captured.

IMO, you're taking semi- and un-related issues and rolling them up the wrong way into a definition of powerful, like defining trees by saying they are brown and green and sometimes get wet.

TheDarthVader
01-10-2005, 10:52 AM
Good points stillakid, and I will admit I may be wrong about the tasks thing.

JT, I still think its more of a "power over death thing" more than anything else. (Such as never feeling pain, hunger, or "the affects of being old"). Remember the line too! I will become more powerful. Not all powerful...not powerful...just more powerful. And maybe, FROM BEN'S POINT OF VIEW (again), he feels being a spirit is overall more powerful than flesh and bone. Besides, it was his line and his opinion.

JT, Kenobi WAS bent to Dooku's will...in a way. Kenobi wanted Dooku to let him go free. Dooku did not release him. For example, if Kenobi's will was to walk free and go to coruscant, Dooku was preventing him from doing this. Thus bending Kenobi to his will in a subtle way.


COUNT DOOKU: This had nothing to do with me, I assure you.
I promise you I will petition immediately to have you set
free.
.................................................. ...............................
OBI-WAN: Well, I hope it doesn't take too long. I have work
to do.
.................................................. ............................
COUNT DOOKU: It may be difficult to secure your release.


JT, your tree analogy is funny and flawed. That is not the same thing. A good analogy would be me using the terms faint, frail, debilitated, exhausted, spent, or helpless for the word "weak".


On another note, didn't Lucas originally intend to have Ben help Luke fight Vader and the Emperor in ROTJ? Isn't this true? Once Lucas changed the ROTJ script before the production of ROTJ, the powerful line in ANH perhaps became less defined. ????



B.
TDV

JediTricks
01-10-2005, 02:10 PM
I still think its more of a "power over death thing" more than anything else. (Such as never feeling pain, hunger, or "the affects of being old").I never thought of that as powerful, I guess that's where we differ. It's like those old Twilight Zones where living forever and never being affected is more a purgatory than a power, that's how I think of it especially with Ben not really doing anything else besides giving Luke a few nudges in the right direction.



Remember the line too! I will become more powerful. Not all powerful...not powerful...just more powerful.This is another thing where you take something out of context and it has different meaning, Ben's line is "more powerful than you can possibly imagine", not "more powerful than I am now", it's not a defined amount of power, just bigger than Vader could imagine and I'm betting that since Vader has seen the power that the Emperor and he wield, that's a lot of power... a lot of promise Kenobi makes that I think goes somewhat unfulfilled.


Kenobi WAS bent to Dooku's will...in a way. Kenobi wanted Dooku to let him go free. Dooku did not release him.I mentioned that Kenobi was captured, but I don't think that's really indomitable, Dooku can take Obi-Wan's body but he couldn't take Obi-Wan's mind, he couldn't turn Obi-Wan to his side after bringing pressure to bear.


On another note, didn't Lucas originally intend to have Ben help Luke fight Vader and the Emperor in ROTJ? Isn't this true? Once Lucas changed the ROTJ script before the production of ROTJ, the powerful line in ANH perhaps became less defined. ????I have heard that was one of the ideas thrown out there originally for the ROTJ story, but I heard it wasn't Lucas' but someone else's and was tossed very early in pre-production (like, around the time we lost the lava pit ;)).

TheDarthVader
01-11-2005, 07:10 PM
I never thought of that as powerful, I guess that's where we differ. It's like those old Twilight Zones where living forever and never being affected is more a purgatory than a power, that's how I think of it especially with Ben not really doing anything else besides giving Luke a few nudges in the right direction.

Yep. You've made the point, and that aspect is where we differ. :)

It may have been pretty cool to have ole Obi Wan helping Luke. Maybe not on Death Star II but perhaps some other situation. (Using his energy to block a lightsaber or something).

B.
TDV