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View Full Version : Merchandizing>Artistry!



The 'Xir
01-19-2005, 01:31 AM
Ya know for we die hard geek-a-zoid Star Wars Freaks going into EpIII, it's like going into watch the 'Titanic', you know the ship is going to sink in the end! However, I remember long ago in a thread far far away, I remember alot of us voicing our concern, that we hoped Lucas would fine some way of artisticly showing Anakin's suppossed death/destruction, while leaving it ambiguous so that the "revelation" in ESB would maintain it's poignancy for future generations who would no doubt watch the movies in episodal order! ?Episodal? :stupid: Anyways... well this NO DOUBT is not going to happen, now that I look at the rash of Merchandizing that basically ties Anakin and Vader together! Ya know I commented about the 'vanity fair' article, saying I would look forward to A post SW Lucas filmaker who's looking to get back to his roots, of an Artistic filmaker like when he was back at USC, but now I'm wondering if this man even has a shread of artistry left in his more machine now than man body!!! :rolleyes: Hopefully he'll suprise me come may '05! Maybe he's just thinking that the merch is just for this generation and future generations won't easily recognize the correlation between the two entities! 'Cause if not, and this really ****es me off, he'll have destroyed probably one of the more endearing aspects of this overall saga, Vaders' revelation to Luke, still a suprise for Luke, but will now evoke no emotional response from the viewer! Who knows maybe for the super extra deluxe 2060th remake of the 2,045th edition of the 97 remake, he'll finally change Vaders' line to something like, "Luke Dirt...I.. am your...sisters' uncles, sixth cousins nephews closest friend." NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, your not my father?" "Absolutely not". "wait a minute... so leia is... You're not my sister, you're not my sister". "Just kidding!" "You are my sister", "you're my sister, you're my sister!!!" :stupid:

Elliejabbapop
01-20-2005, 02:53 PM
I think there is already too much information around (books, documentaries, media in general) to have certain illusions. It's a bit like the Psycho thing, whenever they talk about it they're always going "Anthony Perkins, who plays the mentally disturbed assassin bla, bla, bla"... It totally spoiled it for me. I don't think George is to blame, not at all. By the way, knowing Anakin is DV makes you see the "bad guy" in a different way, it's quite nice, and people are not stups, how would they explain Anakin disappearing from the last part of ep III and suddenly seeing DV? I mean, come on....

The 'Xir
01-21-2005, 12:43 PM
As I said, you leave it as an apparent death, Ben thinking that he killed Anakin on purpose or by accident. You could even do a scene where Ben and Yoda are talking about it after the fact, but have them hint that he might not of been completely destroyed(maybe through some reference about his presence in the Force or something). And becuase they are unsure, it would still neccesitate the twins being hidden(although they are mainly being hidden from The Emperor). Then in a final scene(I always pictured Palpatine giving a speech to a large gathering talking about the promise of the New Order(The Empire)) because his best pupil had been destroyed Palpatine Introduces Vader as a symbol of his new order and the promise of things to come. :stupid: That way the audience comes away thinking that Vader is just that, a new character left as a cliff hanger for the next episode, but they wonder and speculate about If Anakin really died(Kinda like we speculated for 3 years about wether Vader was really Lukes father or not) and then we'd obviously find out in Episode V: ESB!

I know my Idea above isn't great or the best, but I'm just trying to show that it can be done, and Lucas(as the decision maker) should have done this, 'cause by knowing Anakin is Vader in ANH and ESB, it destorys alot of the magic in the OT! :dis:

stillakid
01-21-2005, 01:52 PM
Here here, XIR! :D

But I was just excited to see ">" in the thread title and got to wondering how many people won't have a clue what it means. :classic: I mean, the whole concept of linear storytelling doesn't seem to mean a whole lot to the masses of fan-boys out there wetting their pants at the thought of seeing Hayd-akin turn into Darth Vader, so semi-obscure mathematical references might just blow past them too.

plo koon 200
01-21-2005, 02:35 PM
I once thought and truly argued that the audience should not know who Vader is.

But, when watching in order the surprise of Vader being Luke's fatehr probably won't be much of surprise. It would be like "what the heck, I thought that Anakin dude died, I saw him fall in lava." I actually think it could potentiallly ruin the Luke I am your Father scene if the audience dosen't know who Vader is.

Anyways, the new audience gets the Sidious is Palpatine surprise which actually has more foreshadowing leading up to it, potentially making it a better "surprise".

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-21-2005, 06:22 PM
After seeing the "I am your father" scene tons of times, it still gives me chills, and I obviously know that Anakin is Vader. I don't think it will ruin it, but I'll hae to see the movie to really know how much is shown or hidden.

The comic adaptor guy said that Obi-Wan and Yoda have a talk about the destruction Vader is causing, so it looks like he won't just be walking around in this one.

The 'Xir
01-22-2005, 12:17 AM
For one:

1) Stilla you freakin' crack me up dude! lol


I actually think it could potentially ruin the Luke I am your Father scene if the audience dosen't know who Vader is..

2) We didn't know who Vader was back in '80 and the revelation was so profound 'cause it just came out of nowhere, you didn't expect it at all and probably why we all still get the chills upon hearing it some 25 years later( hey this year is the silver anniversary of ESB.YEAH!!!! blowout dem candles :cool: )

and
3) We all know the Ben/Anakin duel scene will be the climax of the movie, so I highly doubt there'll be enough time in the finale to have Vader runnning around causing "destruction". I'm sure the line in ANH stating,"Vader helped hunt down and destroy the Jedi", will suppossed to be interpreted as Anakin not Anakin in the suit, it's just that in Ben's eyes when Anakin betrayed the Jedi he no longer existed and Vader was born(although once again he wasn't yet physically in the suit). !

stillakid
01-22-2005, 05:50 AM
For one:

1) Stilla you freakin' crack me up dude! lol



I'm here to entertain. :D

Elliejabbapop
01-22-2005, 10:54 AM
That way the audience comes away thinking that Vader is just that, a new character left as a cliff hanger for the next episode, but they wonder and speculate about If Anakin really died(Kinda like we speculated for 3 years about wether Vader was really Lukes father or not) and then we'd obviously find out in Episode V: ESB!

I know my Idea above isn't great or the best, but I'm just trying to show that it can be done, and Lucas(as the decision maker) should have done this, 'cause by knowing Anakin is Vader in ANH and ESB, it destorys alot of the magic in the OT! :dis:

Maybe, but it's way too obvious. Characters don't just appear like that when somebody's just vanished. It would be way too suspicious. Darth Maul appeared out of nothing but there was no previous link with anybody. You must give credit to the human brain Xir ;)

stillakid
01-22-2005, 01:18 PM
Maybe, but it's way too obvious. Characters don't just appear like that when somebody's just vanished. It would be way too suspicious. Darth Maul appeared out of nothing but there was no previous link with anybody. You must give credit to the human brain Xir ;)

Then where did Grevious come from? Or Dooku? Or the EU Assajj Ventress? Granted, Vader becomes a pivotal figure throughout the Original Trilogy, but in linear storytelling, it's generally a bad idea to tell all your secrets in Episode III when care is taken in Episode V to construct a cliffhanger in VI. I mean, it's not like the Prequels are just telegraphing the possibility that Anakin might be Darth Vader...the Prequels are just coming right out and showing it. There really isn't an argument in the world that can justify that a new viewer could or should watch the Star Wars Saga in Episode order (I through VI).

Elliejabbapop
01-23-2005, 05:01 AM
Then where did Grevious come from? Or Dooku? Or the EU Assajj Ventress?

Jeez, didn't you read my post???? :stupid: :stupid: :stupid:

stillakid
01-23-2005, 10:23 AM
Jeez, didn't you read my post???? :stupid: :stupid: :stupid:

Jeez, yeah, what's your point? :stupid: :stupid: :stupid:

Turambar
01-23-2005, 12:02 PM
There really isn't an argument in the world that can justify that a new viewer could or should watch the Star Wars Saga in Episode order (I through VI).

I can't think of any argument that could justify a new viewer watching episodes I through III at all.

Elliejabbapop
01-23-2005, 12:48 PM
Jeez, yeah, what's your point? :stupid: :stupid: :stupid:

My point is what's your point?
Why do you ask "Then where did Grevious come from etc. ..."? THEN what? "Then" is used to counter an opinion expressed previously, but your rhetorical question suggests that you agree with my thesis (memo: the Darth Maul example, perhaps ???) . That's why I think you didn't read my post.

stillakid
01-23-2005, 08:06 PM
Then where did Grevious come from? Or Dooku? Or the EU Assajj Ventress? Granted, Vader becomes a pivotal figure throughout the Original Trilogy, but in linear storytelling, it's generally a bad idea to tell all your secrets in Episode III when care is taken in Episode V to construct a cliffhanger in VI. I mean, it's not like the Prequels are just telegraphing the possibility that Anakin might be Darth Vader...the Prequels are just coming right out and showing it. There really isn't an argument in the world that can justify that a new viewer could or should watch the Star Wars Saga in Episode order (I through VI).

I'll attempt to clarify then. Because Episodes I through III set up scenarios where Darth Bad Guys are introduced out of the blue, it wouldn't then be out of the ordinary for the Star Wars Saga in general to introduce a brand new Darth Bad Guy in Episode IV, that of course being Darth Vader. So given that, the Prequels could have and should have been written in such a way that Anakin appears to die off by the end of Episode III. Giving away the secret obliterates all the suspense and intrigue that was so carefully written into Episodes IV through VI.

2-1B
01-24-2005, 05:05 AM
Linear storytelling is overrated. Even a weird hack like Tarantino blows plot lines within single movies and they are still very entertaining (well, maybe except for a few of them).

I continue to be ambivalent on this matter because:
a) the amount of "foreshadowing" required to keep Vader's identity a "secret" would be so obvious that they might as well show the full monty anyway.
b) the whole potential for a serious Keeping of the Holy Secret was already blown way, way, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in 1983 when they released Star Wars Episode 6 Return of the Jedi, a movie that contained this line from Luke Skywalker:

"I have accepted the truth that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father."

Okay, now please tell me how George Lucas (or anybody else) could come to us in 1999 with a film containing a character named Anakin Skywalker who is taught by Obi-Wan Kenobi but then "dies" by the hand of Darth Vader, a former pupil of Kenobi's, a story which is fudged to a young farmboy in Star Wars Episode 4 A New Hope who later says to a young princess, "I'm Luke Skywalker, I'm here to rescue you."

Now, in the fantasy world of a Star Wars Saga with The Secret Still intact, we would be seeing:

A guy named Anakin Skywalker who becomes a Jedi Knight. We see Obi-Wan Kenobi. We probably need to see a pupil of his named Darth Vader, because afterall in Episode 4 Vader tells Ben that we meet again. We SURELY can't see Obi-Wan fight Anakin and think he is dead, because then when we hear him talk about Vader in Episode 4, we'll react with blank stares because we didn't see Vader betray and murder Anakin - it was Obi-Wan who killed him.

Ben said Luke's father (and we'll know it was Anakin from the prequels because on the Death Star he uses his real last name of Skywalker) was killed by the main Man in Black from the same movie, even though we NEVER saw them onscreen together in the prequels, let alone Ben actually TRAINING a man named Darth Vader.

It won't work.

For starters, they shouldn't have used the name Skywalker when they wrote Episode 6 (but then again, it didn't matter since it completed the arc of the trilogy) and it should have played out that Luke's last name was changed just like his sister.

Next, the prequels can not have much at all to do with Anakin Skywalker. None of these suggestions of leaving him for dead, it won't work ! If anything, we should see Obi-Wan as a guy who has had many, many, learners and MAYBE we can be introduced to Anakin as one of a handful but we CAN'T see Anakin "die" by Kenobi's hand, because it just f's up A New Hope.

Elliejabbapop
01-24-2005, 05:45 AM
Exactly Caesar!!!! :D
Your problem stilla is that you consider two separate trilogies. Darth Vader is not introduced in ep IV, it's just the continuation of the previous trilogy.

stillakid
01-24-2005, 01:17 PM
Exactly Caesar!!!! :D
Your problem stilla is that you consider two separate trilogies. Darth Vader is not introduced in ep IV, it's just the continuation of the previous trilogy.

No, that's not my problem. A Prequel by definition isn't a "continuation" of a previous storyline. A prequel comes before an established storyline. So everything Caesar says is basically true...yeah, all of us already know all the secrets et al, but that isn't the point I'm making at all. I suppose it comes down to perceptions and how one chooses to view the viewing of this 6 part series. I'm simply saying that for any fresh audiences, it is impossible to watch them in episode order because Lucas is making the movies for audiences of today who already know everything, as Caesar points out. That's all well and good in terms of marketing, but it really blows chunks when looked at in artistic and literary terms. If the author expects an audience to see a story through from start to finish it isn't unreasonable to ask that he not ruin all the suspense in the later chapters by dumping all the information out on the table in the beginning.

Elliejabbapop
01-24-2005, 02:38 PM
No, that's not my problem. A Prequel by definition isn't a "continuation" of a previous storyline. A prequel comes before an established storyline.

Actually, I said that episode IV was the continuation of what had come before, what you call the Prequels. When are you going to start reading? :stupid:

stillakid
01-24-2005, 02:40 PM
Actually, I said that episode IV was the continuation of what had come before, what you call the Prequels. When are you going to start reading? :stupid:

I read just fine. What you wrote here isn't what you wrote before. Try being a bit clearer. Thanks. :)

Elliejabbapop
01-24-2005, 02:47 PM
Exactly Caesar!!!! :D
Your problem stilla is that you consider two separate trilogies. Darth Vader is not introduced in ep IV, it's just the continuation of the previous trilogy.

Isn't it?????

The 'Xir
01-24-2005, 06:23 PM
WHOA BOYZZ!!! Back to your corners! :D

Caesar! Your missing my point! Yeah Anakin as Vader Is obvious to alot of people in our time at the height of the Star Wars saga. But I'm talking about 50-100 years from now! When some kid who has heard of this Star Wars Saga as being one of the greatest group of films in history but knows nothing about them going into it, who will automatically sit down and watch them in order 1-6, he will never know the experience like we had, and I'm afraid for that kid that he/she will be like, what's so great about this?
However, If some of the magic that I talked about before, were still intact he might be just as shocked as we were, and take these movies to heart as we have! I love these movies!!!! As most of us here do, and I just wish Lucas gave some consideration to things like this. I would think he'd want that kid 100years in the future, to have the same experience that we did more, but It doesn't seem like he cares. Or it's just absurd that I should care more than he! But hey once again, It's his world and I'll "just keep swimming" "Just keep swimming"! :frus:

2-1B
01-25-2005, 12:12 AM
No 'Xir, I am not missing your point and please don't accuse me of that.

I understand your point just fine - you want the secret of Vader's identity preserved for future generations. I get that. Really, I do. And that's how I'm looking at it when I break down the trilogies in numerical order.

What I am saying is that first of all, the way Episodes 1 and 2 were made, there is NO WAY to honestly preserve the secret in any meaningful manner, so WHY have I heard for the past several years about how Lucas *should* preserve the secret in Episode 3 when there's no way to do it now, considering how the first 2 prequels were made.

And then I went further back in history with the argument that the way the OT was made in the first place, it made it difficult (I say impossible) to go into the whole backstory of this Anakin Skywalker character while preserving the secrets of ESB when it's going to be blown in ANH anyway.

stillakid
01-25-2005, 01:49 AM
What I am saying is that first of all, the way Episodes 1 and 2 were made, there is NO WAY to honestly preserve the secret in any meaningful manner, so WHY have I heard for the past several years about how Lucas *should* preserve the secret in Episode 3 when there's no way to do it now, considering how the first 2 prequels were made.

I thought about that for awhile. I'm not sure if I totally agree with it. I could be wrong. Hmm. But looking back at I and II, there isn't anything coming to mind that really gives away Anakin's transformation to Vader in any direct manner. I mean, I suppose indirectly, because young Obi Wan doesn't have another student in the Prequels, a new viewer watching ANH might listen to his story told to Luke and begin suspecting. But IF Episode III ended Anakin's storyline in such a way that made his death seem a foregone conclusion, then any red-herrings in the Prequels could be dimissed as a new viewer continues to watch the saga as it passes into the original trilogy. But as Episode III WILL just lay it all out there with no doubt at all, there is no chance for such a scenario to work itself out.

The 'Xir
01-25-2005, 04:00 AM
Caesar! Listen, I didn't mean anything by it, and I know you understand WHAT I'm trying to say, but I "accussed" you of missing my point, because of how you argued your point! You gave decent examples of why it won't work, but argued in reference from our point in time !

First of all:


b) the whole potential for a serious Keeping of the Holy Secret was already blown way, way, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in 1983 when they released Star Wars Episode 6 Return of the Jedi, a movie that contained this line from Luke Skywalker:

"I have accepted the truth that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father."

Actually I don't agree with this at all, and no I don't see how this gives away the secret? All this line does is confirm in Lukes mind that Vader is his father after the events of ESB!

but back to my orignal argument look at everything I underlined:


Okay, now please tell me how George Lucas (or anybody else) could come to us in 1999 with a film containing a character named Anakin Skywalker who is taught by Obi-Wan Kenobi but then "dies" by the hand of Darth Vader, a former pupil of Kenobi's, a story which is fudged to a young farmboy in Star Wars Episode 4 A New Hope who later says to a young princess, "I'm Luke Skywalker, I'm here to rescue you."

Now, in the fantasy world of a Star Wars Saga with The Secret Still intact, we would be seeing:

A guy named Anakin Skywalker who becomes a Jedi Knight. We see Obi-Wan Kenobi. We probably need to see a pupil of his named Darth Vader, because afterall in Episode 4 Vader tells Ben that we meet again. We SURELY can't see Obi-Wan fight Anakin and think he is dead, because then when we hear him talk about Vader in Episode 4, we'll react with blank stares because we didn't see Vader betray and murder Anakin - it was Obi-Wan who killed him.

Ben said Luke's father (and we'll know it was Anakin from the prequels because on the Death Star he uses his real last name of Skywalker) was killed by the main Man in Black from the same movie, even though we NEVER saw them onscreen together in the prequels, let alone Ben actually TRAINING a man named Darth Vader.

It won't work.

For starters, they shouldn't have used the name Skywalker when they wrote Episode 6 (but then again, it didn't matter since it completed the arc of the trilogy) and it should have played out that Luke's last name was changed just like his sister.

Next, the prequels can not have much at all to do with Anakin Skywalker. None of these suggestions of leaving him for dead, it won't work ! If anything, we should see Obi-Wan as a guy who has had many, many, learners and MAYBE we can be introduced to Anakin as one of a handful but we CAN'T see Anakin "die" by Kenobi's hand, because it just f's up A New Hope.

Now do you see why I made my comment! I'm not talking about how is Lucas gonna save the secret for US, or WE or even kids ten years from now! Please, just try to imagine that you know nothing about star wars, nothing at all! Now, in order 1-6 try to flash through the movies in your head and tell me that there's not a way of artisticly showing Anakins' death and preserving the "secret". But, your right it can't be done NOW! That is the whole point of this thread! I started this thread because I'm ****ed off and have assummed that Lucas has already f'd up and just shown the "Full Monty" ;) And all I was stating is there is a way that it could have been done, actually for Us now, and for the kids in the future, but it's too late, and the Merchandizing is just a dead give away that my assumptions are correct!

The 'Xir
01-25-2005, 04:49 AM
Actually Caesar, I just went back and reread what you were saying and I tried to read it and really follow what you are getting at but I have to admit I don't know who is confused more you or me, 'cause you've got me completely lost!


Okay, now please tell me how George Lucas (or anybody else) could come to us in 1999 with a film containing a character named Anakin Skywalker who is taught by Obi-Wan Kenobi but then "dies" by the hand of Darth Vader, a former pupil of Kenobi's, a story which is fudged to a young farmboy in Star Wars Episode 4 A New Hope who later says to a young princess, "I'm Luke Skywalker, I'm here to rescue you."

For one I don't think anyone hear asked for a director to come to us, with a fim that has Anakin "die" by the hand of Darth Vader. I'm sorry maybe it's just 'cause it's late, but his whole staement makes no sense to me what so ever!


Now, in the fantasy world of a Star Wars Saga with The Secret Still intact, we would be seeing:

A guy named Anakin Skywalker who becomes a Jedi Knight. We see Obi-Wan Kenobi. We probably need to see a pupil of his named Darth Vader, because afterall in Episode 4 Vader tells Ben that we meet again.

No we don't need to see this!(I really am confused, are you actually suggesting that there be two entities Anakin and Darth Vader?


We SURELY can't see Obi-Wan fight Anakin and think he is dead, because then when we hear him talk about Vader in Episode 4, we'll react with blank stares because we didn't see Vader betray and murder Anakin - it was Obi-Wan who killed him.

Sure we can see this! That's what I'm talking about! Anakin fights Ben then make it look like Anakin dies, then introduce Vader as a whole new character. Come EP4 when Ben says that line above, we'll react like, "what's he talking about, he's lying, he killed anakin!" It would actually lend more intrigue to ANH, because of lines like Owens, "That man's just a crazy old wizard!", and as an audience seeing him lie to Luke we'd question his motives and sympathize more with Lukes stuggles and the decision he has to make on who he should trust! Then unfortunately, we'd still have to put up with that whole 'From a certain point of view" crud later, but we'll still be left with the feeling that Ben was just trying to do what was best for luke, by protecting him from a truth he may not been ready to accept or handle on his own!


Ben said Luke's father (and we'll know it was Anakin from the prequels because on the Death Star he uses his real last name of Skywalker) was killed by the main Man in Black from the same movie, even though we NEVER saw them onscreen together in the prequels, let alone Ben actually TRAINING a man named Darth Vader.

No we won't know it was Anakin from the prequels(refer to what I said previous)


It won't work.

YES! It could have! But as I said before No your right in that it won't work now, and that's my point of this whole thread! Merchandizing(and bad script writting)>Artistry!

Sorry If I confused any of what you were trying to say, but hopefully this breakdown shows you that It could have been done even at the start of EpIII's writting! Remember although Vader says, "So we meet again, the circle is now complete..." We would assume they have met, because of Bens lie to luke about Vader once being his pupil and him training Vader! The only real question would be how could Ben actually have trained Vader when he appears as a new character?, but it all would make sense after the revelation, and now looking at all of this eveidence before us and what could have been done with this story, I think it would have reemphasized the "Revelation" in ESB that much more and made it even more shocking and answered alot of the questions that after seeing 1-4 we would think were bad story elements and holes! Man George would really look like a genius come ESB, but alas a genius he is not. :(

Elliejabbapop
01-25-2005, 07:57 AM
Are we supposed to read such long posts???

The 'Xir
01-25-2005, 08:45 AM
Ever heard of a man named Tycho before? Tycho, if your reading this you know I say it with love brother!!!! :kiss: ;)

Besides Ellie, they just look long 'cause of all the quoting! :nerv:

stillakid
01-25-2005, 10:04 AM
Are we supposed to read such long posts???

It's certainly not required. Not everything can or should be boiled down to a USA TODAY soundbite. :rolleyes: I personally think that this "short attention span" problem is indicative of what ails the Prequels. The films are superficial at the core, designed to titillate rather than be compelling. Graphics and toys more than story and character.

Elliejabbapop
01-25-2005, 10:54 AM
The films are superficial at the core, designed to titillate rather than be compelling. Graphics and toys more than story and character.

Uhm, uhm..... not so sure about this. Never mind. :)

stillakid
01-25-2005, 11:49 AM
Uhm, uhm..... not so sure about this. Never mind. :)

I'm more than happy to debate that. I think that George has recently said (did I read it in Vanity Fair?) that Episode I has more going on than most people think. As you know, I don't agree with that. I mean, I'm pretty sure I recognize which elements he's getting at, but I tend to think that he thinks that the movie is "deep" just because he introduced Midichlorians. Sort of a "spiritual" thing. I don't know. I compare it to a favorite quirky sitcom where after a few seasons, it becomes self-aware and begins to parody itself. The OT had a really fun storyline that everyone could sit back and enjoy, but also had a strong undercurrent of mythology holding it all together. I get the feeling from I and II that Lucas was trying too hard to infuse "deep meaning" into the films and came out on the other end with mush.

Elliejabbapop
01-25-2005, 12:51 PM
One thing I know for sure is that I love the line Obi-Wan says in ep.II:
"If droids could think there'd be none of us here". It may sound obvious but I think the meaning is very important and scary when you think of it. Remember Steven Spielberg's A.I.? It gave me that kind of feeling.
By the way, I find your theory about infusing deep thoughts only to turn them into ridicule situations very interesting, because I didn't feel that with SW but I did feel it very strongly in the Matrix trilogy.

stillakid
01-25-2005, 01:32 PM
.
By the way, I find your theory about infusing deep thoughts only to turn them into ridicule situations very interesting, because I didn't feel that with SW but I did feel it very strongly in the Matrix trilogy.

I agree completely on the Matrix comparison. I found that series to be little more than nifty sfx and martial arts masquarading as "deep" philosophy. The basic concept was really nothing more than a remake of films like THX-1138 and Logan's Run. Matrix frequently doesn't make much sense, but its deficienies are excused by fans just because it all looks so cool. I say, "whatever :rolleyes: ". I find the same sort of thing going on with the Star Wars prequels.

2-1B
01-25-2005, 01:58 PM
ĎXir, in no way am I looking at it from ďourĒ point of view, not at all. I AM taking into consideration Ďfuture audiences.í Think about it, why would I even bother to argue that it canít be saved for us Ė OF COURSE not, since we already know whatís happening. I really donít understand how you could make that claim, that Iím not looking at it from a future audience perspective. :confused: Iíll say it again, I donít know how you can point to the Merchandising as any kind of ďconfirmationĒ that the Secret is ruined when I could have told you in 1999 when TPM came out that there was no decent way to do this, since TPM already sent it down the path of No Secrets. ;)

Okay, the reason I pointed out the name of Anakin Skywalker in ROTJ is because that cemented the fact that he had the same last name as Luke, long before any prequel was written. This is important because when a future audience sits down and watches them 1-6 (which I have never even suggested they do Ė just watch them in production order and everything is just fine :rolleyes: ) anyway, a whole prequel trilogy could be constructed in which we see Obi-Wan kill Anakin with no reference to him being Vader. But we know he is a Skywalker and we know Luke is a Skywalker, so it all comes down to the Story told by Ben in ANH. You suggested that the audience can see Ben kill Luke and then lie about it in ANH. That is a terrible, terrible, idea. Just terrible. Talk about changing a character arc, look at this one ! Without any prequels, we have NO REASON to be suspicious of Ben because he is a hero and there is no reason to question his motives.
Compare that to the Story of Leia Ė NO last name of Skywalker and her identity is a total secret in the films until itís time to reveal that. When Luke runs around talking about ďhe knew my father?Ē I submit that the prequels should have been made with Anakin having a different last name than Luke, because then by the time the audience gets to ANH, they wonít even know for sure who Lukeís dad was. Theyíll just know that he was a guy who knew Ben Ė afterall, Ben knew many people, right ? But nope, this whole thing is now ďAnakinís storyĒ so thatís out of the question. And of course, they couldnít have made it so that Luke had an alias like Leia did, because in ROTJ it was cemented that Luke HAD TO have the same name as Anakin.

Oh okay, so we saw Lukeís daddy ďturn badĒ and get clipped by Ben, but WHY did Ben kill him ? ? ? ? Well obviously because Anakin turned to Evil. Alright, now weíre stuck with Ben having an apprentice, Anakin, turned bad which forces Ben to kill him. And then there had to have been ANOTHER apprentice who turned bad, Darth Vader, because thatís the guy Ben accuses of murdering Anakin. Fine, so this Vader guy could have happened off screen.
Hmmm . . . Benís pupil Anakin was seduced by the Dark Side, Benís pupil Darth Vader was seduced by the Dark Side. Sorry, thatís not any kind of foreshadowing, itís just plain stupid. Almost as stupid as leading the audience to think Ben is a liar when for the longest time, there was no reason to be suspicious of him at all.

I have to go to work but Iíll come back later to touch up on these ideas.

stillakid
01-25-2005, 03:23 PM
Oh okay, so we saw Lukeís daddy ďturn badĒ and get clipped by Ben, but WHY did Ben kill him ? ? ? ? Well obviously because Anakin turned to Evil. Alright, now weíre stuck with Ben having an apprentice, Anakin, turned bad which forces Ben to kill him. And then there had to have been ANOTHER apprentice who turned bad, Darth Vader, because thatís the guy Ben accuses of murdering Anakin. Fine, so this Vader guy could have happened off screen.
Hmmm . . . Benís pupil Anakin was seduced by the Dark Side, Benís pupil Darth Vader was seduced by the Dark Side. Sorry, thatís not any kind of foreshadowing, itís just plain stupid. Almost as stupid as leading the audience to think Ben is a liar when for the longest time, there was no reason to be suspicious of him at all.

I have to go to work but Iíll come back later to touch up on these ideas.

So what really needed to happen was for Lucas to write the Prequels so that this legendary volcano duel is never seen at all because in order for Old Ben's story to hold up until the end of ESB, we would have had to:

A) see Obi Wan be the one to find and choose to train Anakin,
B) see Obi Wan ALSO training other students,
C) see at least one of Obi Wan's other students become a "Darth"
D) NOT see Obi Wan and Anakin battle it out, but rather
E) see Anakin disappear from the storyline as he grows discontent with the politics (or whatever), setting up the possible offscreen scenario that..
F) Anakin dies at the hands of a Darth that Obi Wan had been training.

Sooooo, all of that above HAD to happen in a hypothetical prequel in order for the Original Trilogy surprise to not be compromised. Given that NONE of it was properly written by Lucas, the only remaining logical conclusion is that the Prequels HAVE TO BE seen by new audiences after viewing the Original Trilogy lest the dramatic appeal of said secret be ruined.

Hmm. It does seem as though it was doomed from the get-go. :ermm: I thought so.

The 'Xir
01-26-2005, 02:34 AM
Fine, so this Vader guy could have happened off screen.
Hmmm . . . Benís pupil Anakin was seduced by the Dark Side, Benís pupil Darth Vader was seduced by the Dark Side. Sorry, thatís not any kind of foreshadowing, itís just plain stupid. Almost as stupid as leading the audience to think Ben is a liar when for the longest time, there was no reason to be suspicious of him at all.

Umm... So Count Dookus' transformation offscreen is acceptable then, But a new Character introduced as Darth Vader wouldn't be? Ok...why?

And Caesar, if you don't remember ;) BEN DID LIE!!!

I mean Caesar, I said before I know my Ideas' weren't the best, but I came up with them to show that It can be done, and your honestly telling me that you don't think that there is any way possible to show Anakins' Death as apparent, and then show/introduce Darth Vader while protecting the revelation in ESB!
My Idea might be a crappy one, but I think it shows that IT CAN BE DONE, and if I can show it, than imagine what a talented author with a little time and creativity can come up with!!! I mean really! Hey I mean if you say no you don't think there is any way possible, than fine I guess we'll just have to leave it at that, but obviously I disagree and I think I've shown that It can be done!
And No I don't think that it is stupid to have a newfound uncertainty about Ben in ANH, because Lars already tried to establish that character flaw about him, in more than one line in ANH; but then we would see what a graceful grandfather like character Ben is in his private scenes with Luke, but then our suspicions would be raised again with the Lie(which already exists, and why we have that "Point of View" explanation) validating some of Lars comments about the crazy ole wizard! I think It would lend even greater depth and breadth to an already established character! And once again, he'll come out the other end as one of the greatest Jedi who ever lived, as we have always imagined he is! I don't think that is an unreasonable idea to pursue! I mean on strictly a literary device it works 'cause it Isolates Luke more on his Hero's Quest and shows that it is he and the choices he makes(like who to trust) that sends him down the righteous path, where as his father made all the wrong decisions on his quest to become the most powerful Jedi ever!

2-1B
01-27-2005, 03:43 AM
So what really needed to happen was for Lucas to write the Prequels so that this legendary volcano duel is never seen at all because in order for Old Ben's story to hold up until the end of ESB, we would have had to:

A) see Obi Wan be the one to find and choose to train Anakin,
B) see Obi Wan ALSO training other students,
C) see at least one of Obi Wan's other students become a "Darth"
D) NOT see Obi Wan and Anakin battle it out, but rather
E) see Anakin disappear from the storyline as he grows discontent with the politics (or whatever), setting up the possible offscreen scenario that..
F) Anakin dies at the hands of a Darth that Obi Wan had been training.

Sooooo, all of that above HAD to happen in a hypothetical prequel in order for the Original Trilogy surprise to not be compromised.

Yes ! Exactly ! :D


Given that NONE of it was properly written by Lucas, the only remaining logical conclusion is that the Prequels HAVE TO BE seen by new audiences after viewing the Original Trilogy lest the dramatic appeal of said secret be ruined.

You'll hear no argument from me on that matter. :)
The way I see it, it was good enough for ME to take these all down in production order, so why wouldn't that be good enough for future audiences ? ;)

I just think it was dumb of Lucas & McCallum to come out and tell people that these are all meant to be watched 1 - 6 . . . because that invites the criticisms of people like you, stillakid. ;)

Personally I'm glad to have Anakin's turn shown onscreen (NO, I don't literally need to see him go in the suit but we'll see it anyway) because I saw 4 - 6 so I feel maybe a bit of entitlement to see the backstory. But at the same time in the event that I ever get to influence how someone decides to watch these in the future, of course I will recommend watching them in production order. :)

--------------

'Xir, I'm sorry if my posts came across as personal. First of all, believe me I wouldn't be debating this with you if I didn't think it was fun, and secondly, when I said certain things would be "stupid" and "terrible" I didn't mean to put down your ideas. I was just reacting to them as if Lucas had actually put that onscreen and how I would receive it. I shouldn't have used those words - sorry about that. :)

Now as to your specific post:


And Caesar, if you don't remember ;) BEN DID LIE!!!

Sorry, I can't agree with this. I won't bother to offer a counter argument though because as soon as stillakid sees that you wrote "Ben lied", he'll be offering a rebuttal anyway. :D


Umm... So Count Dookus' transformation offscreen is acceptable then, But a new Character introduced as Darth Vader wouldn't be? Ok...why?

Well, I guess I would just have to point to Ben's duel with Anakin as the reason. Dooku pretty much comes out of nowhere as does Vader, except Vader's name is linked to a murder pretty early in the first film of the Trilogy, a killing which the Prequels would have us believe was done by the guy blaming Vader in the first place.

I am intrigued by the way you brought Lars into the discussion. I'll think about that some more. :)

Kidhuman
01-27-2005, 10:53 AM
Sorry, I can't agree with this. I won't bother to offer a counter argument though because as soon as stillakid sees that you wrote "Ben lied", he'll be offering a rebuttal anyway. :D


Just refer him to the poll question thread for the rebuttals on that one ;) :beard:

The 'Xir
01-27-2005, 11:49 AM
But Caesar, do you or don't you think that it is Possible at all, to show Anakins apparent death, and introduce Vader in the process without giving away the "secret"?

stillakid
01-27-2005, 01:14 PM
Just refer him to the poll question thread for the rebuttals on that one ;) :beard:
Hey now, you'll notice that I never touched it. :)

2-1B
01-27-2005, 01:38 PM
But Caesar, do you or don't you think that it is Possible at all, to show Anakins apparent death, and introduce Vader in the process without giving away the "secret"?

Nope. If you show Anakin's death, then you also have to show the fact that Anakin turned to the Dark Side before that, because afterall that is why Ben "killed" Anakin in the first place.

So when Ben is telling Luke about a former pupil of his named Darth Vader who turned to the dark side, JUST LIKE ANAKIN DID wink ;) wink ;) wink ;) I'd say that's pretty much a give-away right there. ;)

stillakid
01-27-2005, 03:15 PM
Nope. If you show Anakin's death, then you also have to show the fact that Anakin turned to the Dark Side before that, because afterall that is why Ben "killed" Anakin in the first place.


That being said, and with all the other problems notwithstanding, I still think that it would have been perfectly acceptable to show the duel, but keep Anakin's fate ambiguous. Showing the transformation to Darth Vader is just a gratuitous "nod" to anxious fanboys and serves little purpose in advancing the story. In light of everything else we already know from I, II, IV, V, and VI, what that would have accomplished would have been to keep fresh OT viewers wondering what was going on as opposed to just watching Ben "fib" to Luke in IV. With the supposed events of III, the OT will just be flat nonsuspenseful accounting of events (if the saga is watched in episode order).

The 'Xir
01-27-2005, 10:46 PM
WOW!!! Hey Caesar you know I luv ya like a brother and all, but... :dis:

Is there a "shaking head" smilie?

And don't get me wrong, what you said makes sense, but I'm tellin' ya it can be done! Because, one again in my scenario, Ben's lie would make the audience go wait a minute there was no eveil pupil that killed your father luke, it was Ben that killed Anakin(not even entering Vader into the equation). Sooo, If Anakin died by Ben's hand then they'd be thinking Vader is just Vader, well guess what audience watching ESB, When your sitting there watching Vader say, Obi-wan never told you what(really) happened to your father.. :eek: suprise.. it turns out Anakin survived afterall! :eek: And the OT would continue to go on, as It always has, as we've always known it to be, but now that we Know Anakin is Vader by the end of RotS, what the hell is so exciting about the OT? Like Stilla said, it's just an unfolding of events, almost like watching a documentary about Anakin Skywalkers' life! Joy Aren't documentaries just so much fun!!! :rolleyes: