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View Full Version : A New Hope is the least like Star Wars out of all the films!



Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-06-2005, 12:33 PM
Seriously! There's no Yoda. There's no Palpatine. The lightsaber duel is slow and almost boring. There are no knock-down, drag-out fights, except for the Death Star battle. Darth Vader is just some creepy dude, and he's the least creepy in this one anyway.

Who else agrees?

Kidhuman
03-06-2005, 12:39 PM
I can underestand what you are saying. I thought there was a link to a poll or something. Being that it was the first one, I cna say it is not the least liked one. It kicked it all off, so therefore someone had to like it.

General_Grievous
03-06-2005, 01:11 PM
I disagree with you there, JJL. While Yoda and Palpatine may be absent from the film, you don't really need them to have a great movie. Besides, there's no place for them in the movie anyway.

And Darth Vader is creepier in this one than he is in ROTJ. In ANH, he chokes Captain Antilles and Admiral Motti, he kills Obi-Wan and Biggs, and he tortures his own friggin' daughter, for cryin' out loud! How creepy is that? In ROTJ, he just followed Palpatine's orders the whole movie and he didn't even force-choke anyone. But one thing that made him less scary in ANH: He was Tarkin's b**ch.

I do agree with you on the lightsaber fight, though. It was the worst of all the lightsaber battles in the movies.


But I think the movie that is least like Star Wars is Phantom Menace. Lucas made that movie for his kids, not for the fans. The only sequences that actually are reminiscent of the other movies are the lightsaber fight and the space battle. The podrace doesn't cut it for me. It was fun the first few times I saw it, but now I'm just sick of it. Jar Jar was the biggest mistake of George Lucas's career. Overall, it doesn't give you the same feel that the OT does.

Thankfully AOTC changed that to an extent, with a better Star Wars-feel to it.

Droid
03-06-2005, 02:46 PM
This thread has a fascinating and evocative title, but of course the statement is false. I think each Star Wars movie has its own feel. If you want to say there is a "Star Wars" feel, then A New Hope, by default, captures it best. I guess you could state, as some do, that Star Wars was all downhill after a New Hope if you measure how good a Star Wars movie is by how much it is like a New Hope.

I personally think the original trilogy just got better as they went, same from the prequels so far, though I don't think any prequel movie is as good as any original trilogy movie. I think the movies, from worst to best are I, II, IV, V, VI. So if Episode III is better than II, but not as good as IV, the Saga will get better with each installment.

Slicker
03-06-2005, 03:05 PM
Along the same lines as Droid you could say that ESB, ROTJ, TPM, AOTC, and ROTS are the least like SW because they don't follow in the same line as the original.

Ji'dai
03-06-2005, 03:54 PM
Star Wars is still my personal favorite. I still think the special effects are as good as anything today. The set design of ANH is still fantastic in my opinion. The lived-in look of the Lars homestead and Mos Eisley gave me a wealth of imagery to get my imagination going when I used to play-pretend as a kid. And the interiors of the Falcon - wow. I wish(ed) I had a ship like that in my back yard to play in.

The lightsaber duel was between a villain of indeterminate age and an elderly man so I think having Matrix-style acrobatics would have really destroyed the audience's suspension of disbelief in 1977. It would have been funny to see the "old fossil" leaping and somersaulting around. The Jedi mythos were still being established and we don't see lots of leaps, vaults, and somersaults until Luke, a younger man, begins his training in ESB. Vader is reserved physically throughout the OT, but I figured that was due to his war injuries and the fact that he is powerful enough not to have to rely on brute strength any more.

Of course since 70 or 80-year old Dooku is leaping around in AOTC it makes Kenobi's limp fencing seem ridiculous. I guess it depends on your POV. Since I grew up with the OT, I consider them to the basis for Star Wars canon and they should not be changed just to fit the new canon being established in the prequels.

bobafrett
03-06-2005, 05:34 PM
The lightsaber duel was between a villain of indeterminate age and an elderly man so I think having Matrix-style acrobatics would have really destroyed the audience's suspension of disbelief in 1977. It would have been funny to see the "old fossil" leaping and somersaulting around. The Jedi mythos were still being established and we don't see lots of leaps, vaults, and somersaults until Luke, a younger man, begins his training in ESB.

Yes, but watch it, in SW EPIV Special edition segment 20, Lucas will digitally enhance Obi-Wan and Vader to have a "Matrix" style lightsaber duel.

Star Wars Episode IV still is my favorite of the SW films. Luke is still innocent, albeit a whine baby, but he is young, and gets to strike out on his own after his Aunt and Uncle are Slaughtered by the Imperials, starts his training with the Force, and becomes a Hero. I used to dream about being "Luke" as a kid!

And in Episodes I and II, and most likely in III, we get to see Obi Wan in his prime, when he still had the moves. "I'm getting to old for this" Ben says to Luke in Episode IV, he's ready to pass on the baton for the new generation of Jedi, and helps the young crew escape from the Death Star to fight again, and indeed becomes more powerful by guiding Luke during the climatic last minute of the battle over the Death Star.

I LOVE EPISODE IV! :kiss:

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-06-2005, 05:46 PM
Dang people, I never said I don't like it. I love it! I didn't say it's the least-liked, I said it's unlike the others. I was just listing all the constants in the other five films that aren't here at all. Those are by no means contractors, just statements.

Geez I guess I better be more careful with my wording next time. :rolleyes: :D

bobafrett
03-06-2005, 05:52 PM
Dang people, I never said I don't like it. I love it! I didn't say it's the least-liked, I said it's unlike the others. I was just listing all the constants in the other five films that aren't here at all. Those are by no means contractors, just statements.

Geez I guess I better be more careful with my wording next time. :rolleyes: :D

"A New Hope is the least like Star Wars out of all the films!"

Yes, because if you read the title, it sounds like you are saying that it is the film you least like. :eek: :speech:

General_Grievous
03-06-2005, 06:15 PM
I think the movies, from worst to best are I, II, IV, V, VI. So if Episode III is better than II, but not as good as IV, the Saga will get better with each installment.

Not in my opinion. I thought that "Empire" was a much better film than "Jedi". It had a much better story. And most fans would agree with me. I'm not saying Jedi is a bad movie, either. It's my third favorite Star Wars film after Empire and New Hope. Here's how I rank the SW movies from worst to best so far: I, II, VI, IV, V.

2-1B
03-06-2005, 11:55 PM
"A New Hope is the least like Star Wars out of all the films!"

Yes, because if you read the title, it sounds like you are saying that it is the film you least like. :eek: :speech:

I have to disagree with you there because when I read it, in no way did I think he was saying it was the one he likes the least. I just took it to mean it was the most unique in terms of style and characters and I agree with that because ESB and ROTJ both seem to have a more similar style and TPM and AOTC follow suit (regardless of whether you like them or not).

ANH was the launching pad for much of the other happenings in the films, both prequels and sequels.

stillakid
03-07-2005, 01:15 AM
Yeah, I see what he's getting at. A New Hope is by far the best Star Wars film yet made...and why? Most likely it's because it doesn't rely on some of the other elements that propogate the others. Empire is a close second as it sticks pretty close to the original spirit of the saga idea. We can see ROTJ drift away as many of the sequences and elements border on the cartoony and "cute." TPM takes that idea to the extreme with actual cartoons as lead characters. AOTC is probably the farthest we get from the original spirit that A New Hope established as it attempts to mask it's hollowness with flashiness and unfollowable plot points. ANH and ESB are solid pieces of filmmaking. The rest have their own unique flaws.

Droid
03-07-2005, 08:06 AM
I know most people like Empire best, for me Empire is second. But when I grew up, I thought Jedi was the best. I now appreciate Empire more as a movie than I used to, but Jedi still holds that top spot, even if just because of nostalgia.

Kyle Katarn
03-07-2005, 05:07 PM
I don't think it is the least Star Wars...it is ust the half point where all problems get together. It's the center of the SAGA (if you watch the complete saga) where you know some part but it still needs to get concluded. So I don't think it's the least...of course there aren't extreme fights, Jedi Powers (only some), and all that...but it still revolutioned the way of watching a science fiction film and I consider it one of the best of all times.

JediTricks
03-07-2005, 09:42 PM
Star Wars is still my personal favorite. I still think the special effects are as good as anything today. The set design of ANH is still fantastic in my opinion. The lived-in look of the Lars homestead and Mos Eisley gave me a wealth of imagery to get my imagination going when I used to play-pretend as a kid. And the interiors of the Falcon - wow. I wish(ed) I had a ship like that in my back yard to play in.

The lightsaber duel was between a villain of indeterminate age and an elderly man so I think having Matrix-style acrobatics would have really destroyed the audience's suspension of disbelief in 1977. It would have been funny to see the "old fossil" leaping and somersaulting around. The Jedi mythos were still being established and we don't see lots of leaps, vaults, and somersaults until Luke, a younger man, begins his training in ESB. Vader is reserved physically throughout the OT, but I figured that was due to his war injuries and the fact that he is powerful enough not to have to rely on brute strength any more.

Of course since 70 or 80-year old Dooku is leaping around in AOTC it makes Kenobi's limp fencing seem ridiculous. I guess it depends on your POV. Since I grew up with the OT, I consider them to the basis for Star Wars canon and they should not be changed just to fit the new canon being established in the prequels.ANH is also my favorite, though I feel that ESB is the "best" film in the series. Either way though, I think this thread points out how each film after ANH is less and less like Star Wars. I never wanted Obi-Wan and Vader to jump around like frogs on hotplates, that would have been pointless and flashy, look at any old Samurai films and you don't see crazy kung fu insanity, you see decisive movements where each strike of the blade is designed to kill efficiently and not dazzle the camera - Vader and Ben are supposed to be fairly well matched both in saber skills and Force skills, there's even non-screen suggestion that they're doing mental Force battles at each other while this saber battle rages on. Luke and Vader's somewhat flashy moves in ESB make sense because they're NOT evenly matched, and eventually Luke gets clobbered not by a bunch of jumps and spinning but by brute force and anger. ROTJ is pretty much the same thing except a little more of the role reversal and they're fighting for different goals.

I find it funny that Lucas was apparently so disappointed, frustrated, and turned off by the making of ROTJ that it in part kept him from making other SW sooner, yet each of his prequels so far have been totally in the vein of ROTJ rather than ANH or ESB.



I didn't say it's the least-liked, I said it's unlike the others. I was just listing all the constants in the other five films that aren't here at all. Those are by no means contractors, just statements.

Geez I guess I better be more careful with my wording next time. :rolleyes: :D It's an inaccurate statement though, you should be saying the others are unlike the original, not the other way around, it makes a HUGE difference. I remember having many a conversation on these forums about how TPM and AOTC were taking the Saga in the wrong direction, away from Star Wars, a lot of folks liked each film and defended them saying that they were not, but it seems like that is what you have said in this thread, except from a different end of the conversation.



But when I grew up, I thought Jedi was the best. Same here, from '83 till probably '89 or so, I found myself often defending ROTJ to other people. I was a 7 when the film came out and as a kid it hooked me well, it tied up the story and was exciting and hopped the galaxy and had a wild fight at the beginning and end. Even now when I re-watch it, I see so many things where if they had just taken a left instead of a right, the film would be pretty awesome even despite rehashing so much of the first 2 films. ROTJ doesn't hold the top spot for me though, it is too weak a film and frustrating in the middle for me (even as a kid, I recognized some of the film's flaws, but I was more into the big flashy stuff).

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-08-2005, 05:27 PM
It's an inaccurate statement though, you should be saying the others are unlike the original, not the other way around, it makes a HUGE difference. I remember having many a conversation on these forums about how TPM and AOTC were taking the Saga in the wrong direction, away from Star Wars, a lot of folks liked each film and defended them saying that they were not, but it seems like that is what you have said in this thread, except from a different end of the conversation.
Yeah, I guess you're right. So I suppose what I meant to say is that a lot of things that have come to define these movies (Yoda, big duels) came later and weren't in the original. I just find that somewhat odd.

Slicker
03-08-2005, 05:59 PM
I know this won't suffice for the people that want the reasons to be movie related but the original budget for SW was only around $10 million compared to the almost $35 million for ESB. With bigger budgets you get bigger effects so that is no doubt the real reason for the not so action oriented scenes and also this was Lucas' first real adventure into Sci-Fi and he nor anyone else knew what to expect. Not bad for a first timer, huh?

stillakid
03-08-2005, 06:20 PM
Yeah, but usually the most creative decisions come out of adversity. Time and time again, we can see that when most creative types don't have the obstacles in front of them, like critique or lack of funding, their creative quality plummets. The original Star Wars had numerous obstacles in the way of (supposedly) what George wanted to produce. And I think that it's because of that, he couldn't lean on the superficial and had to concentrate more on story and character. Simple proof of this is looking at his later efforts as the money became plentiful and the outside studio pressure on him went away. In particular, the Prequel stories are by and large a mess and the characters are neglected. Sometimes, a large budget can be a help in bringing a vision to fruition, but a lot of the time, it negates the creative drive.

Turbowars
03-08-2005, 07:43 PM
Look what you did JabbaJohn! You just can't go ****ing SW geeks off like that damn it!

I took your meaning John and I can kind of agree. I think it's like that because Lucas didn't have the means to make a film like AOTC back then. You better believe if CGI was around he would have destroyed ANH, Empire and Jedi. and we all would be Trekies.:D

Imperial Monarche
03-08-2005, 09:48 PM
I disagree with you there, JJL. While Yoda and Palpatine may be absent from the film, you don't really need them to have a great movie. Besides, there's no place for them in the movie anyway.

And Darth Vader is creepier in this one than he is in ROTJ. In ANH, he chokes Captain Antilles and Admiral Motti, he kills Obi-Wan and Biggs, and he tortures his own friggin' daughter, for cryin' out loud! How creepy is that? In ROTJ, he just followed Palpatine's orders the whole movie and he didn't even force-choke anyone. But one thing that made him less scary in ANH: He was Tarkin's b**ch.

I do agree with you on the lightsaber fight, though. It was the worst of all the lightsaber battles in the movies.


But I think the movie that is least like Star Wars is Phantom Menace. Lucas made that movie for his kids, not for the fans. The only sequences that actually are reminiscent of the other movies are the lightsaber fight and the space battle. The podrace doesn't cut it for me. It was fun the first few times I saw it, but now I'm just sick of it. Jar Jar was the biggest mistake of George Lucas's career. Overall, it doesn't give you the same feel that the OT does.

Thankfully AOTC changed that to an extent, with a better Star Wars-feel to it.

I have to disagree with ya, General (please, don't kill me :ermm: ) True, Yoda doesn't need to be in it and neither does Palpatine, but not because there's no place for them, because Yoda is needed for ESB after the absence of Obi-Wan and Palpatine is no longer one of the focus' of this trilogy. He gets a mention, and I would like to have a new scene filmed where he dissolves the Senate, but it's not an importance.

But, those are not reasons why I would say that ANH is least like any Star Wars. I would mainly say it because of story pace. All the other movies constantly switch between the different characters who are spread out throughout the galaxy: ESB switches between Luke on Dagobah, Han and crew in the Falcon and on Cloud City and Vader looking for them; ROTJ switches between the Rebels to the Imperials to Lando; TPM switches between the Trade Federation to good guys to Darth's Maul and Sideous; and finally AOTC switches between Obi-Wan's hunt, to Anakin and Padme's love affair, to Dooku and company, to the Jedi's. ANH is the only one that primarily follows the same characters all throughout (with the exceptions of a few switches to the Death Star in the beginning) and primarily stays on one planet for awhile, then switches locales.

The score is also different than all other Star Wars movies. It's the only one that doesn't feature the Imperial March somewhere (which is something that definitely needs to be fixed for a future DVD release).

The lightsaber battle is, yes, pretty slow and is probably my least favorite of the movies, but I will once again disagree that it's unlike the Star Wars movies because I would have to say that TPM lightsaber battle is the least like any of them. All of them are both between two people only and tend to be slow paced, except for TPM. It featured two fighters and very fast paced.



Yeah, I see what he's getting at. A New Hope is by far the best Star Wars film yet made...and why? Most likely it's because it doesn't rely on some of the other elements that propogate the others. Empire is a close second as it sticks pretty close to the original spirit of the saga idea. We can see ROTJ drift away as many of the sequences and elements border on the cartoony and "cute." TPM takes that idea to the extreme with actual cartoons as lead characters. AOTC is probably the farthest we get from the original spirit that A New Hope established as it attempts to mask it's hollowness with flashiness and unfollowable plot points. ANH and ESB are solid pieces of filmmaking. The rest have their own unique flaws.

Good point. I would have to say that ESB is by far the best though, because even though ANH set up the OT characters, ESB brings the mythology and carries the story the most. I agree somewhat with you on TPM, it was pretty kiddy...I still like it though. I disagree with you on AOTC. I found the plot very easy to follow and the only thing I didn't like was some of the dialogue (mostly between Anakin and Obi-Wan).

JediTricks
03-08-2005, 10:42 PM
So I suppose what I meant to say is that a lot of things that have come to define these movies (Yoda, big duels) came later and weren't in the original. I just find that somewhat odd.
You've seen it, you tell me, were they in the original? I'm still not clear on why Yoda is in the prequels at all since he's not Obi-Wan's teacher IN THE FILMS. As for the big duels, they look cool sure but they're generally devoid of emotion or storytelling. Like I said to Turbo down a few paragraphs, it's not as if Lucas was forced to make this movie this way and it's not what he wanted, he made ANH the way he wanted, didn't make ESB at all, and then only helped make ROTJ which kinda stunk because of such a behind-the-scenes mess and just some bad ideas, yet then Lucas makes the movies based on the ROTJ model.



I know this won't suffice for the people that want the reasons to be movie related but the original budget for SW was only around $10 million compared to the almost $35 million for ESB.Wasn't the original budget $3 million and Lucas had to force the other 7 mil after filming had started by going over and then asking for more?



I think it's like that because Lucas didn't have the means to make a film like AOTC back then.That is such a modern LFL statement, but I don't believe it. Lucas' big complaints about ANH originally were about the Jabba scene and the crappy rotoscoping under the Landspeeder, both fairly minor technical issues which suggest that he DID make the movie he wanted to for the most part.



But, those are not reasons why I would say that ANH is least like any Star Wars. I would mainly say it because of story pace. All the other movies constantly switch between the different characters who are spread out throughout the galaxy... ANH is the only one that primarily follows the same characters all throughout (with the exceptions of a few switches to the Death Star in the beginning) and primarily stays on one planet for awhile, then switches locales.The others are just trying to expand on the intertwining plotlines from ANH, but that film does it best because it doesn't use the concept to excess, it puts the characters back together and pulls them apart in different ways, and isn't afraid to focus on the main plot - even ESB splits the storylines apart for too long and tends to drag in the middle because of it.


The score is also different than all other Star Wars movies. It's the only one that doesn't feature the Imperial March somewhere (which is something that definitely needs to be fixed for a future DVD release).Where would it go, and for whom would it be played? I don't think it would fit as well, there aren't the big grand imperial assembly scenes that ESB has.

bobafrett
03-08-2005, 10:59 PM
I have to disagree with you there because when I read it, in no way did I think he was saying it was the one he likes the least. I just took it to mean it was the most unique in terms of style and characters and I agree with that because ESB and ROTJ both seem to have a more similar style and TPM and AOTC follow suit (regardless of whether you like them or not).

ANH was the launching pad for much of the other happenings in the films, both prequels and sequels.

I just reread the title, and it appears that I added a "d" at the end of "like" and read it as if it said "A New Hope is the least like"d" Star Wars out of all the films!" That's what I get for trying to read these posts too quickly. Sorry! I do love EP IV though! Maybe it's because it was the different film, until George went and added his extra material that is. :evil:

Kidhuman
03-08-2005, 11:07 PM
I just reread the title, and it appears that I added a "d" at the end of "like" and read it as if it said "A New Hope is the least like"d" Star Wars out of all the films!" That's what I get for trying to read these posts too quickly. Sorry! I do love EP IV though! Maybe it's because it was the different film, until George went and added his extra material that is. :evil:


I did the opposite, I assumed he left off the D in like.....

bobafrett
03-08-2005, 11:37 PM
I did the opposite, I assumed he left off the D in like.....

Yes, I think that is how I read it, assuming that he had forgot the "d". Now we know, at least those who have read carefully!

chewie
03-09-2005, 09:02 AM
Star Wars (as I prefer to call it) will always be the best film out of the six movies, IMO. Mostly because it came first and was the most original. It also has the most compelling story and climax (again, my opinion). Sure the beginning is slow, but if you intend to settle people into a new environment, a slower pace has to be how it starts out. The rest of the sequels except for possibly Phantom Menace have no setup at all. Throwing you straight into the action from the beginning of the movie onward.

Imperial Monarche
03-09-2005, 02:57 PM
Where would it go, and for whom would it be played? I don't think it would fit as well, there aren't the big grand imperial assembly scenes that ESB has.

The only place that the music should be altered is when Darth Vader first appears on Tantive IV because the weird stormtrooper anthem is played. The imperial march would suit much better at that scene. Not a real grandious version, but a little one.

stillakid
03-09-2005, 03:57 PM
While looking for something else on the internet, I stumbled upon what appears to be a "blog" written by, what I think, is a fellow with quite of bit of insight and spare time on his hands. I will create a new thread that reprints his words, but one passage in particular struck me as very relevant to the thread topic here.

In an overall discussion regarding the Prequels as they relate to the OT films, he states:


http://www.aslan.demon.co.uk/viewpoint.htm

That said, copies of the early draft of the Star Wars screenplay have long been available, and they do, indeed, have a certain amount in common with Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones. Although the storylines are broadly similar to what eventually became Episode IV, some of the background is much more reminiscent of the prequels. They both have a lot of bargain basement mysticism about the nature of the force. Both early drafts refer to the Jedi's enemy being the 'Sith', a term not mentioned on screen until Phantom Menace. The Adventures of the Starkiller contains a fair bit of galactic politics. Perhaps this is what Lucas means when he says that the Prequels are films he had in mind from the beginning; perhaps he is saying that Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones are much closer to his original conception of Star Wars than Star Wars itself was.

If this is so, George Lucas stands revealed as one of a long and illustrious line of artists who has dedicated himself to ruining one of their great worksóbecause they have totally failed to recognize what made it so great.

The implication or outright accusation being that to George, ANH was the screw up, the abomination, the abberation. George isn't quite as brilliant as we all thought he was. The "success" of ANH came despite it not being anything like what George wanted to create whereas the subsequent films that he had a larger influence over (creatively and financially) were what he really intended.

It goes without saying that ANH, and to some extent ESB, are sort of off on their own. ROTJ isn't too far off the mark, but the beginning of Lucas's control began to be evident as the financial contraints didn't mandate outside influence on "his vision." This idea is taken to the extreme as we see how badly TPM and AOTC fumbled the ball....to us. But to George, the Saga is finally coming out just the way he would have liked it to have been all along. Cheesy, superficial, and godawful...just like those Flash Gordon episodes he grew up on.

MaquisWarrior
04-06-2005, 02:19 AM
A New Hope is really the work of Alan Dean Foster, who did the ghostwriting of the movie novelization and much of the movie re-write. Ralph McQuarrie created the Stormtroopers, the Droids, and the ships. I'm sure George Lucas was upset aat all this but being that he was an up and coming director/writer he had to take his lumps. He did not have the opportunity of presenting his own vision of the world like RobertRodgriuez' Mariachi (Desperado in the US) trilogy. The studios took "happy Dyas" from Lucas (American Graffiti) and changed it just as much to be campy version of it. But then again, the whole SW trilogy would have looked like THX 1138 (BORING) with bald naked people and dudes dressed like LAPD running around. Come to think of it C3PO is the studios' nod to DURAN DURAN (no, not the band) from Barbarella. I'm glad that FOX humored Lucas to be a producer because then Star Wars would have been a sci-fi porno with a naked 17 year old Carrie Fisher (or 21 year old Cyndi Williams) being probed by Vader a different way or have the good guy run around sans shirts like the Apes movies and yes ST/OS

JediTricks
04-06-2005, 10:39 PM
i've never heard that Alan Dean Foster had any input on the film whatsoever, I had heard he ghostwrote the book based on the finished screenplay. I'd need to see some sources before I can believe a contradiction of that. McQuarrie worked with Lucas to create the look of Vader, the droids, and the stormtroopers, all of which I believe were based on real-world influences that Lucas came up with (except the droids, which were based on earlier movie robots), the ships were a lot of combinations of people's input, I will grant that.

As for the studios stealing Happy Days, that is patently untrue, the pilot that eventually became the episode of "Love American Style" entitled "Love and the Happy Days" was shot with Ron Howard over 2 years before American Graffiti got started and aired a year before the film's release. However, it was American Graffiti's unexpected success at the box office that convinced ABC to desire to copy that success for a TV show, only to learn they already owned a pilot starring the same lead actor from a few years before, and thus Happy Days was born.

MaquisWarrior
04-07-2005, 10:00 PM
JT:It is possible that although the LAS "Happy Days" pilot came out a year before AG;AG was either still in production or pre-production. Being that you are a mod of the club I know you are closer to LFL than any of us, I mean being connected to Steve S. and all. I probably got some of that babble from when I was a security guard at Techincolor from the older workers, boy do they talk when they are on break so I'll retract my statement to a point, except for the Alan Dean Foster one which I will look for a CREDIBLE source where all us fans can go to it. So....my bad! For now....hehehehhe:beard:

JediTricks
04-08-2005, 05:34 PM
Being connected to Steve S, you mean Sansweet? I am? News to me. Is this another confusion of SirSteve and Steve Sansweet? Because if so, SSG has nothing to do with any of that, SirSteve is just another fan running his fan site.

American Graffiti wasn't in preproduction when the original Happy Days pilot was shot, I am pretty sure of this as Lucas was finishing up THX-1138 at the time. The AG behind-the-scenes stuff I remember said it had a relatively short preproduction phase and a very short primary shooting schedule (the whole film was shot in a month, and IIRC was released only a few months later.


Any info you can link us to on input into the Star Wars script by outside authors would be greatly appreciated, Foster or no.

MaquisWarrior
04-08-2005, 06:47 PM
JT: :crazed: Confused I am...Too many clubs I join/ post/ reply.....:crazed: Return to real world for a while I will...Apologies again please accept :crazed: Mediatate on this I will .. as my state's governor would say:cool: "I'll be back!" TTFN! (tata for now)

JediTricks
04-08-2005, 09:37 PM
Funny, my state's governor used to say that, now he says "I'm taking money from schools to pay for promises I couldn't keep, and it won't be back". ;)

Mr. JabbaJohnL
04-13-2005, 06:27 PM
I believe it was Slicker in another thread who said that, in making this thread, I was saying I don't like ANH. Folks, that's not the case at all! I was just listing the ways that ANH differs from all of the constants in the rest of the saga. I mean, someone expecting to see Yoda or Palpatine and watching ANH for the first time would say, "Wha-?" I guess I should've phrased my post a little bit better. But don't think for one second that I don't like any of the SW films!

LTBasker
04-15-2005, 08:08 AM
While ANH does seem to be alot different from the later movies, I feel it doesn't make it a bad thing- it just sets things up for the other movies to build on. If you look at the OT like a book ANH could be the first few chapters, ESB being a few more chapters and then ROTJ being the final chapters.

The problem why the ANH seems so different when you consider what the prequels are is because each prequel tries to be it's own 'book'. That is, each movie has to set itself up and then end the story. So basically it's like condensing the OT into one movie. That's why ANH starts feeling so different because even though it ends in a finale, that finale set foundation for the other two movies to build upon. Ie: Death Star 2 being changed to not have the same weakness, why the Rebels respect for the main characters and this means the characters advance in rank through each movie.

Then you look at TPM- so much emphasis was put on destroying the Trade Federation battleship to become like another Rebellion's most important stand from ANH to destroy this super weapon... When really it effected nothing and they have tons more of those ships that will show up in each movie along with thousands of more Battle Droids.

I hope that makes sense, it's 8am here and I'm lost. :p

El Chuxter
03-14-2007, 03:51 PM
A New Hope is the least like Star Wars out of all the films!

Oh come on. That's too stupid to even glorify with a bad pun on the word "egg."

Jargo
05-05-2007, 05:38 PM
ANH has a death star as does ROTJ. ANH has Obi-Wan and a skywalker as does all the other movies. ANH has a rebel faction fighting against the odds to defeat a foe of enormous magnitude. as do all the other movies. the only thing that's different is film stock. and editing pace. and a distinct lack of colour. ANH has the palest colour pallet of all the movies. but then they spend so long on the death star with it's drab grey and black. the heroes have no colur to speak of in their costumes. and the ships are all drab as well.

this tv show set between both trilogies may help blend between the two but if LFL use the same vibrant colour pallet as they have with the prequels right through the tv show it'll make ANH seem even more stark and out of synch in that respect. the Imperial regime stamped across the galaxy oppressing any colourful cultures and imposing the bland rule of the emperor is basically why ANH is so stark in theory. and why by the end of ROTJ there's so much more colour. (though it's really a budget issue for sure) so the 18 years between trilogies is where the difference lies. and if you look at the OT you go from drab in ANH to a bit more colour in ESB to brighter colour in ROTJ. and it sort of works the other way round in the prequels.

this has been a clumsily written late night post by the daddypants.

Mad Slanted Powers
05-06-2007, 12:57 AM
But, those are not reasons why I would say that ANH is least like any Star Wars. I would mainly say it because of story pace. All the other movies constantly switch between the different characters who are spread out throughout the galaxy: ESB switches between Luke on Dagobah, Han and crew in the Falcon and on Cloud City and Vader looking for them; ROTJ switches between the Rebels to the Imperials to Lando; TPM switches between the Trade Federation to good guys to Darth's Maul and Sideous; and finally AOTC switches between Obi-Wan's hunt, to Anakin and Padme's love affair, to Dooku and company, to the Jedi's. ANH is the only one that primarily follows the same characters all throughout (with the exceptions of a few switches to the Death Star in the beginning) and primarily stays on one planet for awhile, then switches locales.Actually, I think TPM is very much like ANH in this respect. ANH follows the two droids, while TPM follows the two Jedi. ANH breaks away to the Death Star from time to time, and of course the main action eventually reaches there. TPM breaks away to the the Trade Federation and Maul a few times, but the focus is still pretty much on the Jedi and their path. However, the end of TPM is more like ROTJ, with several battles going on at once.


The only place that the music should be altered is when Darth Vader first appears on Tantive IV because the weird stormtrooper anthem is played. The imperial march would suit much better at that scene. Not a real grandious version, but a little one.
I actually like that Imperial Attack music. It is like a rough draft of the Imperial March. Then years later when I first play Dark Forces, I believe that piece was what was playing at the beginning of the first level. I felt like I was right inside a Star Wars movie.

JediTricks
05-06-2007, 05:45 PM
and a distinct lack of colour. ANH has the palest colour pallet of all the movies. but then they spend so long on the death star with it's drab grey and black. the heroes have no colur to speak of in their costumes. and the ships are all drab as well.

this tv show set between both trilogies may help blend between the two but if LFL use the same vibrant colour pallet as they have with the prequels right through the tv show it'll make ANH seem even more stark and out of synch in that respect. the Imperial regime stamped across the galaxy oppressing any colourful cultures and imposing the bland rule of the emperor is basically why ANH is so stark in theory. and why by the end of ROTJ there's so much more colour. (though it's really a budget issue for sure) so the 18 years between trilogies is where the difference lies. and if you look at the OT you go from drab in ANH to a bit more colour in ESB to brighter colour in ROTJ. and it sort of works the other way round in the prequels. You make a very good point about the prequels not meeting ANH in that respect, but I want to comment only on ANH here for a moment...

I think partly ANH is trying to get a much more naturalistic tone out of its environment, you don't see a lot of rich colors in the dusty desert or in military installations.

Also, and I'm certainly no expert here, but we're talking about designs from the late '70s when everything was earthtones - ESB looks even more like the late '70s and has this same lack of color to it, though the only place to judge this is Bespin since Hoth, the Falcon, the Star Destroyer, and Dagobah are all colorschemes driven solely by their environments.



Actually, I think TPM is very much like ANH in this respect. ANH follows the two droids, while TPM follows the two Jedi.I vehemently disagree that it's very much like it in that respect, that is not a similarity IMO except in the basic form of raw numbers. In ANH, the idea of following the droids stems from them being the least important people in the story, in TPM we're following the main characters from the very beginning, they're the most active characters in the story. If TPM had started by following Jar Jar from the beginning, that'd be very much like ANH.

Mad Slanted Powers
05-06-2007, 06:32 PM
I vehemently disagree that it's very much like it in that respect, that is not a similarity IMO except in the basic form of raw numbers. In ANH, the idea of following the droids stems from them being the least important people in the story, in TPM we're following the main characters from the very beginning, they're the most active characters in the story. If TPM had started by following Jar Jar from the beginning, that'd be very much like ANH.Well, I am a numbers guy. Still there are a lot of similarities in the form. I think I posted this elsewhere but here it is again.

ANH - Rebel ship attacked, droids escape to the surface of the planet below.
TPM - Republic ship attacked, Jedi escape to planet below.

ANH - Droids run into some troubles, but eventually meet up with Luke, Ben, Han & Chewie and leave the planet.
TPM - Jedi take a bit of a detour with the battle droids and the Gungans, but eventually meet up with the Queen and her crew and leave the planet.

ANH - Heroes head for Alderaan, end up on Death Star.
TPM - Heroes head for Coruscant, end up on Tatooine.

ANH - Heroes have to find a way to escape the Death Star. They eventually do and end up heading back to the rebel base.
TPM - Heroes have to find a way off Tatooine. They eventually do and end up heading back to the Republic capital on Coruscant.

ANH - Rebels regroup and head out to attack Death Star.
TPM - Heroes head back to Naboo for final battle.

At this point, the final battle in TPM is more like ROTJ. However, both TPM and ANH have a Jedi die in a lightsaber battle, just in different points of the movie.

JediTricks
05-06-2007, 06:37 PM
Those are all good points, though I think that shows how unoriginal TPM really is. :p Of course, I'm the one who says that TPM is the most SW-like of the prequels.

bigbarada
05-06-2007, 09:46 PM
I'd have to go with the camp that says ANH is the least like the other films because it is the best of them all. It's one of the best and most successful films of all time and none of that is because of hype or an overblown FX budget.

I believe ESB is an equally impressive milestone in movie history because it broke the stigma of sequels always being inferior to their original films. It didn't follow in Star Wars' footsteps by imitating it, it expanded the story and set the stage for what we see now.

If ESB had been along the same lines as More American Graffiti or Grease 2, then we would be talking about ANH as a great old movie; but it wouldn't be the continuing phenomenon that it is today. So ESB deserves just as much credit for creating Star Wars.

The only reason I would consider ANH a better film is merely a matter of structure. ESB needs ANH and ROTJ, because it isn't a self-contained story and really has no beginning or ending. So, while I believe it's a more entertaining film than ANH, it's technically an inferior film for those reasons alone.

I believe ROTJ is the worst of the three, because once Lucas got all that control, credibility and money what did he do with it? He remade ANH. Jabba's Palace is merely a bigger, more elaborate Cantina and the big Endor battle is what was intended for the climax of the original film, it's just there was no budget for it in 1975.

JediTricks
05-07-2007, 02:59 PM
I'd have to go with the camp that says ANH is the least like the other films because it is the best of them all. It's one of the best and most successful films of all time and none of that is because of hype or an overblown FX budget.That's a great point, though I usually say that ANH is my favorite and ESB is the best. But ANH did the most with the least and was the genesis for a whole new type of moviemaking and a whole new type of classic myth.


I believe ESB is an equally impressive milestone in movie history because it broke the stigma of sequels always being inferior to their original films. It didn't follow in Star Wars' footsteps by imitating it, it expanded the story and set the stage for what we see now. Though I don't care for it, most would claim that 1974's The Godfather Part II broke that sequel stigma.


If ESB had been along the same lines as More American Graffiti or Grease 2, then we would be talking about ANH as a great old movie; but it wouldn't be the continuing phenomenon that it is today. So ESB deserves just as much credit for creating Star Wars.To be fair, "More American Graffiti" was Lucas' revenge on Universal Studios for mangling the first movie and giving him such a hard time.


I believe ROTJ is the worst of the three, because once Lucas got all that control, credibility and money what did he do with it? He remade ANH. Jabba's Palace is merely a bigger, more elaborate Cantina and the big Endor battle is what was intended for the climax of the original film, it's just there was no budget for it in 1975.ROTJ is easily the worst of the OT, it reeks of too much control by helmer Lucas who had run aground on ideas and picked the wrong director to shape the film. Jabba's palace is, like you said, just a reuse of the Cantina idea right down to showing off what a badass our new Jedi is, but the whole sequence is isolated from the greater story - had Luke and pals not rescued Han, nothing else in the story would have changed. And the Endor battle, while it has some charms, proves how useless it would have been if it had been in ANH - it has nothing going on, it's entirely superfluous.

stillakid
05-07-2007, 03:17 PM
ROTJ is easily the worst of the OT, it reeks of too much control by helmer Lucas who had run aground on ideas and picked the wrong director to shape the film. Jabba's palace is, like you said, just a reuse of thea right down to showing off what a badass our new Jedi is, but the whole sequence is isolated from the greater story - had Luke and pals not rescued Han, nothing else in the story would have changed. And the Endor battle, while it has some charms, proves how useless it would have been if it had been in ANH - it has nothing going on, it's entirely superfluous.


I agree with everything except that the movie is entirely superfluous. The Darth Vader moments are the saving grace. The emotion turmoil that is tearing that character apart inside somehow manages to come through despite the mask. Those scenes are artfully done. Every one of them.

I'm also biased toward the speederbike sequence. It contains hints of the podrace extravaganza that is to come, but this scene has a purpose, is exciting, and not too long. Though I wish, of all things, that Lucas would have spent time fixing some of the effects, it is still a riveting sequence.

Droid
05-07-2007, 03:20 PM
I think people are too hard on Jedi. It is still my favorite Star Wars movie, though I think that Empire may be "the best".

I truly love the pre-Special Edition Jabba's Palace/Sarlaac sequence.

stillakid, the difference between the pod race and speeder bike sequences is that the pod race stuff was like watching Luke and Leia build their speeder bike before the chase started.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
05-07-2007, 05:44 PM
I agree with everything except that the movie is entirely superfluous. The Darth Vader moments are the saving grace. The emotion turmoil that is tearing that character apart inside somehow manages to come through despite the mask. Those scenes are artfully done. Every one of them.
Agreed. When I watched all six in one day, the scene where Vader looks down at Luke and then kills Palpatine, ranked among the most emotionally powerful.


I'm also biased toward the speederbike sequence. It contains hints of the podrace extravaganza that is to come, but this scene has a purpose, is exciting, and not too long. Though I wish, of all things, that Lucas would have spent time fixing some of the effects, it is still a riveting sequence.
That's another thing I noticed during the marathon several months back - much of the ROTJ action seemed staged. During the Carkoon sequence, when one of the guards swings at Luke's feet and he jumps, it looks horribly choreographed and fake (thankfully it's a quick shot). On Endor, when Chewie shoots at the scout on the speeder bike, the guy was going like 10 mph and was headed right into a giant log in the first place. I wouldn't mind too terribly much if they were to re-edit some of that stuff. Same goes for the podrace on the DVD; they should've left the "new" stuff in the deleted scenes.

JediTricks
05-08-2007, 03:57 PM
I agree with everything except that the movie is entirely superfluous. Are you saying the movie is entirely superfluous, or are you suggesting I said that? I ask because it wasn't my intention to claim the movie was superfluous, I said the Endor battle was superfluous, let me clarify: the FOREST battle is entirely superfluous. Granted, I had also pointed out the opening sequence on Tatooine was superfluous... :p


The Darth Vader moments are the saving grace. The emotion turmoil that is tearing that character apart inside somehow manages to come through despite the mask. Those scenes are artfully done. Every one of them.Some of the zombie Vader scenes don't work for me that well, they're a little too flat after the explosive Vader of ESB or the chained pitbull of ANH, but they do pay off at the end.


I'm also biased toward the speederbike sequence. It contains hints of the podrace extravaganza that is to come, but this scene has a purpose, is exciting, and not too long. Though I wish, of all things, that Lucas would have spent time fixing some of the effects, it is still a riveting sequence.I am fond of the speederbike sequence as well, but I like it more as a battle than a race. What effects don't you think work right in there?



I think people are too hard on Jedi. It is still my favorite Star Wars movie, though I think that Empire may be "the best".I loved ROTJ when it came out, but I was a kid at the time which heavily biased my opinion, after rewatching the saga a couple years later, it was a major eye-opener to me and ROTJ had become threadbare to me. ROTJ is a few big action sequences that stand alone but aren't really of much consequence bookending a thin story because it was only a tiny part of the original saga that had to be stretched out to fill a full movie and then changed to fit a "new" vision... hey, that might be a major way that the prequels are like ROTJ!!! I never thought of that before, but it's totally true.

stillakid
05-08-2007, 04:12 PM
Are you saying the movie is entirely superfluous, or are you suggesting I said that? I ask because it wasn't my intention to claim the movie was superfluous, I said the Endor battle was superfluous, let me clarify: the FOREST battle is entirely superfluous. Granted, I had also pointed out the opening sequence on Tatooine was superfluous... :p

Hi, yes. I read your comment as suggesting that the entire movie was superfluous. In my opinion, for what that's worth, is that the "rescue Han" sequence, which takes up half the screentime, should never have been anything more than EU material. We need to see him rescued, but taking half a movie to do it was more than necessary given the small amount of new story information we are given (ie, Luke is a Jedi, sort of, Han loves Leia, etc.)

I give in on the Endor battle because I like the idea of a multiprong battle when done right. He tried that in TPM but it was too forced and didn't make any sense. The fight on Endor had a purpose, so even though it was a "version" of Lucas's desired Wookie battle and had some cutsie moments, I've never been bothered by it the way some people claim to be.





I am fond of the speederbike sequence as well, but I like it more as a battle than a race. What effects don't you think work right in there?
Yes, that's what I meant by having a purpose. It wasn't just ten minutes of gratuitous NASCAR to show off that it can be done.

There are several rear projection type shots that don't play well at all. Most of it is okay, but those few really need fixing. I also have always been bothered by the utter lack of wind billowing their tunics about. I've mentioned this before but I'll say it again. For anyone who has ridden in the back of a pickup truck, just traveling at the modest speed of 35 mph can blow your hair and everything else as if you were in a gale force wind. The Speeder Bikes are supposed to be doing upwards of 200 mph and the camo cloaks on our heros look as if they are getting nothing more than a summer breeze.

DarthQuack
05-08-2007, 05:14 PM
I have to disagree with the title of the thread. I throughly enjoy A New Hope very much, and think it's a much better film, IMO, to I or II.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
05-08-2007, 05:30 PM
I have to disagree with the title of the thread. I throughly enjoy A New Hope very much, and think it's a much better film, IMO, to I or II.
Let me reiterate, two years after I said it before: I was not saying that ANH is the SW film I like the least, or the worst of them. If you read the first post you'll see what I meant. I wasn't saying that any of those aspects are bad, I was just saying that they differed from what has become the "norm" of the other five SW films.

JediTricks
05-09-2007, 03:06 PM
Hi, yes. I read your comment as suggesting that the entire movie was superfluous.I was afraid that was what you thought, hopefully everybody reading this thread better understands what I was going for now.


In my opinion, for what that's worth, is that the "rescue Han" sequence, which takes up half the screentime, should never have been anything more than EU material. We need to see him rescued, but taking half a movie to do it was more than necessary given the small amount of new story information we are given (ie, Luke is a Jedi, sort of, Han loves Leia, etc.)Clearly they needed a big action sequence to fill the beginning of the film, show off how the characters have changed, and fill a lot of screentime - as a stand-alone sequence, I dig it, but it really isn't much more than filler. As for its value to Star Wars, I'm of 2 minds about this:
A) It doesn't greatly further the story, therefore it's just filler;
B) It does fit neatly with the "movie serial" feel that the saga is based upon.

Ultimately, I accept ROTJ for what it is, flawed but fun with a few really good moments strewn about.



I give in on the Endor battle because I like the idea of a multiprong battle when done right.I can accept it like on Bespin when it's a lightsaber battle at the same time as the rebels escaping the stormtroopers, but the forest battle in ROTJ I think serves far too little purpose.

The fight on Endor had a purposeWhich was? Sure, they needed to take down the shield generator and slip through the Emperor's trap, but the battle itself was a lot of needless silliness.


so even though it was a "version" of Lucas's desired Wookie battle and had some cutsie moments, I've never been bothered by it the way some people claim to be.The Ewoks mostly fight pretty valiantly except for Wicket, it's just hard to accept these 3-foot rock-throwers defeating AT-STs and blasters and armor, and none of it really matters much because most of that battle means nothing to the story.


He tried that in TPM but it was too forced and didn't make any sense. I think part of the problem in TPM was that he went for 4 battles - lightsabers, Padme's attack on the palace, space, and gungans - and just had way too much going on. The space battle was needless as it it's there to remove a shameless contrivance, and to make matters worse it's sloppily recut (the original version has a lot more sense to it, Anakin's actions aren't nearly as random in the script, but all the lines that sew concepts up ended up getting cut for time). The Gungan battle is essentially meaningless because they're only out there to distract the Trade Fed forces and it doesn't really matter whether they win or lose. Padme's attack on the palace felt a little boring and slow but had to be shown to get her from A to B. And all of this is intercut with the show that people really paid to see.


Yes, that's what I meant by having a purpose. It wasn't just ten minutes of gratuitous NASCAR to show off that it can be done.What kills me is Lucas had another lap in the script and filmed!!! Who cares what happens to Mars Guo or Dud Bolt or any of those ridiculous clowns? Hell, half the scenes don't even serve to establish Sebulba as a convincing badass, and the 1 that did got cut (flamethrower)!


There are several rear projection type shots that don't play well at all. Most of it is okay, but those few really need fixing.Hmm, never noticed any problems there, any specific lines to help us pin down at what point?


I also have always been bothered by the utter lack of wind billowing their tunics about. I've mentioned this before but I'll say it again. For anyone who has ridden in the back of a pickup truck, just traveling at the modest speed of 35 mph can blow your hair and everything else as if you were in a gale force wind. The Speeder Bikes are supposed to be doing upwards of 200 mph and the camo cloaks on our heros look as if they are getting nothing more than a summer breeze.That never bothered me because at those speeds, without some sort of deflection field akin to a repulsorlift no passenger could possibly ride a speederbike for more than a few seconds without being ripped off by windsheer.


I still say that as ANH defines the Star Wars universe, it is the most Star Wars of the movies and it is the prequels that are out of phase with that. They came later, weren't even considered when the OT was made, and they didn't live up to matching the OT which was their job to do in order to exist in the SW universe.

stillakid
05-09-2007, 03:49 PM
Which was? Sure, they needed to take down the shield generator and slip through the Emperor's trap, but the battle itself was a lot of needless silliness........The Ewoks mostly fight pretty valiantly except for Wicket, it's just hard to accept these 3-foot rock-throwers defeating AT-STs and blasters and armor, and none of it really matters much because most of that battle means nothing to the story.

A ground battle is needed to disable the shield generator in order to amp up the narrative. The only other option is to let Han and Friends waltz into the bunker and hit the "off" switch. Ultimately, how a battle is conceived and executed is dependent upon the creativity and ingenuity of the screenwriter. Given that Kasdan was probably charged with the task of creating a Wookie-like battle, only with teddy bears, he did an okay job. Definitely agree that the "turning point" moments meet or exceed the line of demarcation on silliness and illogical, but on the whole, I've always tried to take it in the spirit of "serial episodic" fun and let go of the coincidences and contrivances that allow the Ewoks to win.

As far as what it means to the greater story, I suppose that depends on your opinion of what the greater story really is. Lucas maintains that the saga is about the Skywalker tale. Lucas being the author notwithstanding, I disagree. I don't think Lucas understood his own story very well. Star Wars, to me at least, is about the bigger fabric of galactic downfall and redemption. A great Republic fell prey to its own malaise and had to find the passion and inspiration to rebuild itself.

In order to tell THAT story, Star Wars uses smaller stories within to both illustrate the lessons and mirror what is going on in the grand scheme of things. It just so happens that the Skywalker story, that of Anakin falling prey to the quick and easy path but ultimately being saved, is what also happens to the Republic. What seemed like the right thing to do was what destroyed it. Only through sacrifice and turmoil can it find itself again. Given that, the Ewok battle fits in fine with the mission of telling the greater story with the added bonus of "man (Ewok) vs. Machine" which is ultimately just a refashioning of the David and Goliath tale.





Hmm, never noticed any problems there, any specific lines to help us pin down at what point?

Sorry, I'm away from home at the moment and don't have access to my DVDs. But in general, there are several shots where the "foreground" speeders either "shake" against the forest plates or they look not much better than a B-movie rear projection shot. For the most part, I think that most of the shots were well done, but it those few that bother me to this day. Besides, there aren't a lot of lines of dialogue that would help me pinpoint them for you...not that I remember anyway. When I get home in a few months, if I remember and have time, I could try to freeze frame a few.

Droid
05-09-2007, 03:57 PM
Definitely agree that the "turning point" moments meet or exceed the line of demarcation on silliness and illogical, but on the whole, I've always tried to take it in the spirit of "serial episodic" fun and let go of the coincidences and contrivances that allow the Ewoks to win.

I never thought of the Ewoks as winning so much as destracting the Empire so Han and Leia could do what they need to. I think the whole battle scene could have played better if they would have showed more Ewoks dying (I think they tried to show Ewoks were dying with just the one shot) and by showing the actual Rebel soldiers who were there doing something. I imagine the Endor Rebel soldiers had more of an effect on the battle than we were shown in the film. There were virtually no shots of them. I think a few more shots and the whole thing could have come across as less comical and silly.

JediTricks
05-10-2007, 04:32 PM
A ground battle is needed to disable the shield generator in order to amp up the narrative. The only other option is to let Han and Friends waltz into the bunker and hit the "off" switch.You are right, but I will point out that the whole shield generator is a contrivance of its own, and not even part of Lucas' original vision for the Death Star battle.


Ultimately, how a battle is conceived and executed is dependent upon the creativity and ingenuity of the screenwriter. Given that Kasdan was probably charged with the task of creating a Wookie-like battle, only with teddy bears, he did an okay job.He did, but I think you just can't show what they showed without coming off silly at best. Plus, Kasdan didn't have characters to work with there, the Ewoks never had any standout warriors that made a place for themselves valiantly - so it's a generic teddy bear army as well, relying on Wicket to define them since he's the only character the audience is given to identify the group with (I've never examined it before like that, but it feels accurate now that I think about it, this is a significant part of why the Ewoks get a bad rap, and the same goes for the Gungans with Jar Jar being the audience's conduit into that race).


Definitely agree that the "turning point" moments meet or exceed the line of demarcation on silliness and illogical, but on the whole, I've always tried to take it in the spirit of "serial episodic" fun and let go of the coincidences and contrivances that allow the Ewoks to win.For me, because the only characters we have to identify with are a goofy little kid Ewok and our not-enough-screentime Rebel heroes, the Ewok battle scenes also feel a tad more generic than that "serial episodic" aspect. You wouldn't watch a 15 minute episode where it's just generic teddy bears killing and being killed without characters to draw you in, yet that's what those forest battle scenes largely feel like to me.


As far as what it means to the greater story, I suppose that depends on your opinion of what the greater story really is. Lucas maintains that the saga is about the Skywalker tale. Lucas being the author notwithstanding, I disagree. I don't think Lucas understood his own story very well. Star Wars, to me at least, is about the bigger fabric of galactic downfall and redemption. A great Republic fell prey to its own malaise and had to find the passion and inspiration to rebuild itself. That's not what the early drafts say to me, there's a bigger story but it is the background to a handful of specific characters' actions and motivations - hidden princes, Jedi generals, sons being taught by fathers, it's always been about SOMEONE: Starkiller or Skywalker or whomever, and the handful of people around them specifically. The greater fabric of the galactic tale is told mainly in the fights that the heroes have, and the gulf shown between them and the villains when the villains get scenes.

TeeEye7
05-20-2007, 11:20 PM
Reading thru all of this analysis of Prequels vs. OT has brought me to my own opinion as to why they are so different: 1) Chemistry and, 2) presentation of storyline.

1) For me, there is much more chemistry between the characters in the OT than the prequels. I felt some chemistry between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in TPM but nothing between Obi-Wan and Anakin. For me, this made the OT much more enjoyable.

2) Again, IMHO, the OT had the Saturday morning serial feel whereas I didn't have that feeling with the Prequels. I enjoyed the "Raiders-esque" seat-of-your-pants action of the OT better than the attempts in the Prequels. I just don't think they pulled it off as well as they did in the OT.

....and getting back to John's original title of the thread, I agree. I think SW (ANH) is a stand-alone movie whereas the others springboard off of each other.

Again, just IMO.

stillakid
05-21-2007, 12:07 AM
That's not what the early drafts say to me, there's a bigger story but it is the background to a handful of specific characters' actions and motivations - hidden princes, Jedi generals, sons being taught by fathers, it's always been about SOMEONE: Starkiller or Skywalker or whomever, and the handful of people around them specifically. The greater fabric of the galactic tale is told mainly in the fights that the heroes have, and the gulf shown between them and the villains when the villains get scenes.

I can see that argument but can't agree with it. Everything that happens is laid upon the "fabric" of this galactic conflict. Naturally, this isn't a heartless documentary where we aren't involved in the lives of specific people, however, their lives are not what the story is about. Star Wars is not about Luke Skywalker wanting to leave his boring farm to have big adventures. :laugh: Star Wars is not about Han Solo becoming a good guy and getting the girl. :lipsrsealed: Star Wars isn't about two court jester droids who just happen to be the key to many of the problems and solutions. :crazed:

The story has those elements, but Star Wars is not about any of those specific people and their specific stories as much as it is not about the lifespan of a TIE Fighter. :ko:A well-told story needs all of those elements, each of which has its own story to tell (which is where EU, comics, and videogames come in to fill those gaps), but the greater story is not about any one of them.



You mentioned the Ewok battle and how there are really no Ewok characters developed who we really care about. It does turn into a fairly anonymous battle where we're not really invested in any of them. :zzz: One toasty teddy is as expendable as the next. That said, the same holds true for all the people waiting for death on Yavin. Or Alderaan (though we don't see them at all). Or most of the pilots fighting over either Death Star. In all of the larger conflicts, there are pawns who we expect to see explode or get shot, used as tools to illustrate who is winning or losing at a particular moment in the story. We are also shown one or more main characters who we do care about so that we can care about who wins and who loses. We can't care about them all. Wicket may not have pulled everyone in as America's favorite teddy bear, but that isn't his fault. Let's blame the script or filmmakers. But the intention was there. I suppose the same can be said for Jar Jar, but that story had far more trouble going for it anyway to make the audience not care about the outcome (in TPM). If Yavin was blown up, presumably the Rebellion would have died. If the Gungan army was wiped out, then nothing would have changed for the bigger picture. If the Ewoks were wiped out, the same would have been true, but humans have a better "relationship" :love:with cute cuddly teddy bears and care about their outcome far more than gross, ugly, smelly fishy things, like Jar Jar. :whip:

JON9000
05-21-2007, 11:36 AM
I loved ROTJ when it came out, but I was a kid at the time which heavily biased my opinion, after rewatching the saga a couple years later, it was a major eye-opener to me and ROTJ had become threadbare to me. ROTJ is a few big action sequences that stand alone but aren't really of much consequence bookending a thin story because it was only a tiny part of the original saga that had to be stretched out to fill a full movie and then changed to fit a "new" vision... hey, that might be a major way that the prequels are like ROTJ!!! I never thought of that before, but it's totally true.

I am in the camp that believes ROTJ gets a bad rap.

I think there were just some unfortunate costs associated with having to make ANH a stand-alone film at the very get-go, and those costs show up in ROTJ. As far as recycling, would it make anybody feel better if the big, bad weapon in ROTJ was a World Devastator instead? It shouldn't, because it is really just a macguffin to get Luke in front of Vader, and the rest of the characters doing things that look incredibly cool (and in 83 that battle over the DSII was sick).

I didn't see anybody gripe when ROTK was basically TTT redux and then had the nerve to repeat sequences within the same film twice! As in, Aragorn convinces reticent group to go to another's aid, the calvalry shows up to save the day... blah, blah, blah. Anybody who thinks LOTR is just peachy and ROTJ suffers might look again.

I even love the Jabba's Palace stuff at the beginning, even though it does make me feel as though I've watched two films.

Qui-Long Gone
05-21-2007, 11:45 AM
I like ROTJ. It's hard to close out a trilogy (in the sense of it being film 6) because you don't want to introduce too many new people and concepts. ESB was better than ROTJ true, but for example, the third Indiana Jones was much better than Temple of Doom....but in many ways Two Towers was better than Return of the King...

About the only "new" character worth introducing in ROTJ was the Emperor, but he was only important because of his role with Luke and Vader....

JediTricks
05-21-2007, 05:21 PM
Reading thru all of this analysis of Prequels vs. OT has brought me to my own opinion as to why they are so different: 1) Chemistry and, 2) presentation of storyline.

1) For me, there is much more chemistry between the characters in the OT than the prequels. I felt some chemistry between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in TPM but nothing between Obi-Wan and Anakin. For me, this made the OT much more enjoyable.

2) Again, IMHO, the OT had the Saturday morning serial feel whereas I didn't have that feeling with the Prequels. I enjoyed the "Raiders-esque" seat-of-your-pants action of the OT better than the attempts in the Prequels. I just don't think they pulled it off as well as they did in the OT.Excellent points, I feel the same on both counts. But I do feel that the pacing of TPM - while painfully slow in the middle - is part of why I think it's the most SW of the other prequels.


....and getting back to John's original title of the thread, I agree. I think SW (ANH) is a stand-alone movie whereas the others springboard off of each other.Every serial starts somewhere, and SW I think is the most serial-like because its pacing is broken up into 3s - 3 major acts, 3 parts per act - that the others all try to emulate, making ANH the most SW, not the least.



I think there were just some unfortunate costs associated with having to make ANH a stand-alone film at the very get-go, and those costs show up in ROTJ. As far as recycling, would it make anybody feel better if the big, bad weapon in ROTJ was a World Devastator instead? It shouldn't, because it is really just a macguffin to get Luke in front of Vader, and the rest of the characters doing things that look incredibly cool (and in 83 that battle over the DSII was sick). Those costs only show up in ROTJ because ROTJ wasn't very well written - sure, ANH steals the big death star fight and awards ceremony, but a better script could have made those issues moot by writing something different, none of that HAD to be set in stone, it wasn't set in stone in the first 3 drafts of what would become ANH, the kiber cyrstal and prison fortress got completely removed without hampering anything. They could have made the mcguffin anything and instead they went with another Death Star because they're devoid of ideas, it could have been the Emperor's fortress or the naval shipyards or anything. The ROTJ Space Battle is very exciting to look at, but with none of our heroes actually involved except 2 second-stringers it's just another faceless big battle with little meaning to the main characters.


I didn't see anybody gripe when ROTK was basically TTT redux and then had the nerve to repeat sequences within the same film twice! As in, Aragorn convinces reticent group to go to another's aid, the calvalry shows up to save the day... blah, blah, blah. Anybody who thinks LOTR is just peachy and ROTJ suffers might look again.I gave ROTK lower marks for some of those reasons actually.

chewie
06-03-2007, 01:06 PM
Star Wars (or A New Hope) is definitely my favorite out of the series. It has a true beginning, middle, and end and requires no additional viewings to understand the plot or the characters and their motivations.

ESB ranks second to me if only because its a sequel, requires watching the first movie to understand it, and is not something entirely new like the first film due to it being a sequel.