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View Full Version : If ep 3 turns out great, won't that cast more doubt on the other prequels?



JediTricks
03-11-2005, 02:59 PM
I have heard a lot of people here say that Episode III will be great and will also serve to somehow make Eps I and II better films, but it just occurred to me that if it were great it would actually draw out the failures of those films to their fullest extent. Basically, I thought of the hypothetical concept that I had seen Ep III and felt it already was good and that led to:

"if Lucas could make Ep III so great, why couldn't he make the other prequels that good?"

That in turn let me to wonder about those comments that Ep III will redeem I and II. Think of it this way, Ep VI ROTJ was largely considered a mess and a let-down, yet it didn't change the way people accepted Ep IV ANH or Ep V ESB even though supposedly it made those 2 tales "complete"; so even if Ep III ends that tale on a high quality note for audiences how will that really change the content or perception of I and II? I don't believe it will, I think it's people trying to excuse those films through creating a pattern which doesn't actually have precedence out of or in the Lucas universe. LOTR: ROTK didn't make FOTR or TTT any better, those were great films on their own; ROTJ didn't make ANH or ESB better; Godfather III certainly didn't seal up I and II; so is the group opinion here for the SW prequels that because TPM and AOTC were both pretty cruddy that it's different from those other trilogies and will thus buck the trend? If so, wouldn't that be a solid argument for why the prequel and original trilogies are not 1 cohesive saga?

Back to the quality issue, if Ep III turns out to be an all-around great film, I think that will simply put further question as to the wrong choices made in Ep I and II. Are we supposed to simply accept those as Lucas' training wheels, projects he took on not to really tell a story but as a few warm-up pitches before he finally brought the heat again? If that is the case, why couldn't he first didn't he warm-up by making other films that didn't have the limitations surrounding Star Wars? With American Graffiti and THX-1138, he's shown us that he's not a one-trick-pony, not even dependent on riffing off old serials as he's done in Star Wars and Indiana Jones, so why didn't he try taking a few warm-up laps with another project, perhaps one not so high-profile, instead of simply playing fast and loose with Star Wars? I have no answers, but if Ep III is masterful, I definitely think we'll be having more questions.

stillakid
03-11-2005, 10:34 PM
With American Graffiti and THX-1138, he's shown us that he's not a one-trick-pony, not even dependent on riffing off old serials as he's done in Star Wars and Indiana Jones, so why didn't he try taking a few warm-up laps with another project, perhaps one not so high-profile, instead of simply playing fast and loose with Star Wars? I have no answers, but if Ep III is masterful, I definitely think we'll be having more questions.


Sort of. THX is pretty basic and isn't particularly well written. There really isn't much to it at all. It really is one of those student films that tries really hard to be "significant" by preaching to the audience some kind of "message."

Graffiti was saved by clever writing from his friends. By all accounts, Lucas did very little directing of actors. Haskell most likely chose where to put the camera. So given all of that, what exactly did Lucas direct? Just like Star Wars, Lucas is the idea man...the grand scheme, the broad strokes. Indy was his "idea," but it took a better filmmaker to put the details together that made it work.

With that in mind, I don't see how ROTS can really improve upon I and II. He didn't bring in a new writer to help polish the script. He still doesn't direct the actors. The overall camera style of the saga has been rather, well, uncinematic as he prefers tableaus to more Spielbergian type camera involvement. All in all, nothing has changed from TPM and AOTC so I don't see any reason to expect that ROTS will be any better than the first two.

But to your question, if a miracle happened and ROTS was somehow a great film? The first thing that would happen is that is would make I and II stick out like sore thumbs. I disagree with your statement that ROTJ was a "mess." While perhaps a little more fluffy than ESB, what wouldn't be after ESB? It lightened the mood and was a bit cartoony with the Ewoks and the fuller space battle and such, but the story certainly wasn't a "mess." But TPM and AOTC are tumultuous piles of disconnected sequences with nary a character arc in sight. Hardly in line to be compared to ROTJ on any level.

Kidhuman
03-11-2005, 11:06 PM
If E3 is good, it can make TPM and AOTC look better, but only if it follows the sotry line. Think of reading a book...

The first 1/3 is kind of boring..
The next 1.3 is decent and picks up...
The last 1/3 kicks so much arse that the entire story then becomes awesome to you. As far as making the others better films, it cant. But it can make people like the "whole Trilogy" better.

2-1B
03-12-2005, 03:55 AM
First you have to consider whose point of view such a comment is coming from. With all due respect, the first two posters in this thread (JT and stilla) are the absolute LAST TWO people at SSG who would EVER even think of attaching a word like "great" to this upcoming prequel-sequel. So in that sense, it's really a pointless argument.

I mean, it seems to me that many of the people going nuts about the new E3 trailer do not have a distinct dislike or even hatred for 1 and 2. So if you liked some or all of 1 and 2, then I think you are primed to enjoy part 3. But if you didn't like the first 2 on the whole, then I have no doubt that E3 could not be in any way considered "great."

Now, I, Caesar, might be running around in a few months hailing this one as the best but then again I'm on record in these forums as loving AOTC and enjoying TPM. So in that sense, I'd agree with what KH said.

Stillakid said it nicely here:

With that in mind, I don't see how ROTS can really improve upon I and II. He didn't bring in a new writer to help polish the script. He still doesn't direct the actors. The overall camera style of the saga has been rather, well, uncinematic as he prefers tableaus to more Spielbergian type camera involvement. All in all, nothing has changed from TPM and AOTC so I don't see any reason to expect that ROTS will be any better than the first two.

While I disagree with some of his opinions there, the argument makes perfect sense and that's the line of thinking I am also trying to put forth.

JT, you have no love for TPM, you think AOTC is like a bowl of flavorless mush, so at best this next film could be mildly interesting to you. But there's no way you'll think it's great, I guarantee that ! ;)

Also JT, something you said here about ANH reminded me of a thread I've been meaning to start. I thought about going into it here but I don't want to hijack your Ep3 angle so I will take it over to the Classic Trilogy forum. :)

sith_killer_99
03-12-2005, 08:53 AM
Here's the way I see it.

Episode 1 is kinda boring. But the main purpose was to introduce the audience to the character of Anakin Skywalker. To that end it did the job. George was more interested in telling the background story of Anakin. This differs from the other SW movies, where you just pick up in the middle of the story. EP1 is less like the Saturday Serials that George was so proud of having emulated with Star Wars. The main plot of the film had a somewhat boring premise, which in turn led to a somewhat boring film.

Episode 2 is a little more exciting. It deals with the love story between Anakin and Padme'. Sappy stuff made worse by bad acting from both Hayden and Natalie. At the same time it was setting the stage for the Clone Wars. This is where EP2 shine through IMO. The Battle of Geonosis was cool, except for the whole C-3PO thing. This film depended heavily on the performances of Nat and Hayden and they bombed. George himself said EP2 was more a love story than anything.

Episode 3 will most likely rock. But look at the premise of the film. Anakin falls to the darkside, the Empire is born and evil gains the upper hand in the universe. WOW! Now that's a story! Action galore. The film will be much less dependant on the acting (though that is always a factor). With that kind of material it's easier to make a great film.

2-1B
03-12-2005, 11:57 PM
SK99, I'm going to argue one point with you. Not your opinions on the films, just the idea that George said AOTC was more of a love story.

Well the way I remember it, GL DID say that going into it, I remember soon after TPM's release an article in USA Today (I think I still have it buried somewhere) in which George said the next one would be a love story and many fans wouldn't like it because of that.

Okay, fine.

But then I got the AOTC DVD and listened to the commentary in which George says something to the effect that he knew he only had a handful of scenes to do the "love stuff" . . .

So now I'm not sure what to think, at first it was supposed to be a Love Story in capital letters but it seems that by the time he got around to making it, the Love Story had taken a backburner, getting a select number of scenes to make it work.

Thoughts ? :)

dr_evazan22
03-13-2005, 01:49 AM
As others have said, I also don't think that ROTS can make the other films any better. I liked both prequels so far, it looks like I'll like this one as well.

I think the only thing that could MAYBE make AOTC better, and bring more to the love story, is to add in some of the deleted scenes.

One thing I've been thinking of recently is that with the digital effects that GL has been able to achieve with the prequels, some of what he imagines is so far out there, it's hard for us (me) to believe them. There's less of a grounding in reality. My problem isn't with the characters (like Watto and JJB), but more with the locales, and how the real actors interact with the digital.

scruffziller
03-13-2005, 05:21 AM
The way I have been viewing it is that EPS 1&2 were made as excuses to get to EPS 3.

JediTricks
03-13-2005, 09:59 PM
If E3 is good, it can make TPM and AOTC look better, but only if it follows the sotry line. Think of reading a book...

The first 1/3 is kind of boring..
The next 1.3 is decent and picks up...
The last 1/3 kicks so much arse that the entire story then becomes awesome to you. As far as making the others better films, it cant. But it can make people like the "whole Trilogy" better.I don't agree, a book is a single entity while these films are individuals, and while they make up an abstract story they themselves are still singular pieces, the "whole trilogy" isn't just an abstract singular story but a saga that takes place throughout 3 stories. You are still talking about making those first 2 films look better because they are part of a bigger story, but I argue that while the bigger story may be enhanced, the separate entities are not. A book is a singular entity, no matter how you slice it, these 3 films really ain't and that's where the difference lies.



With all due respect, the first two posters in this thread (JT and stilla) are the absolute LAST TWO people at SSG who would EVER even think of attaching a word like "great" to this upcoming prequel-sequel. So in that sense, it's really a pointless argument. Damn Caes, I hope that's not the level of respect I'm actually due, because it came off pretty disrespectful. :p I can't speak for Stilla, but I will judge this film on its own merits when it comes and I am very disappointed that you among all the people here would suggest that I would do otherwise.


I mean, it seems to me that many of the people going nuts about the new E3 trailer do not have a distinct dislike or even hatred for 1 and 2. So if you liked some or all of 1 and 2, then I think you are primed to enjoy part 3. That is a really poor, narrow argument. My sister hasn't even SEEN Eps 1 and 2 and she liked the Ep 3 trailer a lot. Heck, everybody I know in "real life" who saw it thought it was cool and exciting and not ONE of them thought much of TPM or AOTC (that ranges from like to hate on each film, no matter their opinions most people I know didn't think much of the films).


JT, you have no love for TPM, you think AOTC is like a bowl of flavorless mush, so at best this next film could be mildly interesting to you. But there's no way you'll think it's great, I guarantee that ! ;) Wow, thanks for warning me, I thought I'd go in and make up my mind later, but apparently now I don't have to. I haven't met you in person Caesar, but apparently according to your logic I already think you suck... good thing I don't go by your logic. ;)

BTW, you never actually answered my question. :D



Episode 1 is kinda boring. But the main purpose was to introduce the audience to the character of Anakin Skywalker. To that end it did the job. I still maintain that this purpose could have been achieved in the story we know as Ep 2 with 3 only lines of dialogue. Hell, it doesn't actually even need 3 lines, almost everything we learned about Ani from Ep 1 is shown in Ep 2 at some point - he used to be a slave, left his mother to become a Jedi with Ben, that he had previously met Padme, is a "great pilot" (that one is a little thin, I'm counting the swoop and the coruscant speeder, but Ep 1 didn't show it all that well with the podrace and Lucas' horrible re-editing of the end battle where now everything Ani does is an accident - in the original shooting script version he actually has stuff explaing why it isn't podracing and why he is making twists and turns) - so all we really needed was a little buttoning up to tie it all in together. Hell, Ep 2 does a better job showing us where Ani came from than Ep 1 does, the only thing Ep 1 really does better is show how Palpatine got to be Supreme Chancellor which I am not sure needed more than a quick dialogue to explain (Ben shares his theories on how it went down with Mace, which actually builds into stuff we see in the Ep 3 trailer between Mace and Palpi).


George was more interested in telling the background story of Anakin. This differs from the other SW movies, where you just pick up in the middle of the story. I disagree, in ANH we know that Luke has been unhappy living on the farm and wants to go to academy and flies skyhoppers and has only a few friends without SHOWING it in endless detail. We don't see his relationship to Vader, but I'm considering that "out of bounds" for the comparison to Ani in TPM - you could argue that the Midichlorian count/chosen one stuff is like that Vader stuff, and perhaps you'd be right but we're still in a "wait and see" mode for Ep 3 on whether they deliver that way or not, and I would submit that if we DO find out more then my Vader comparison becomes apt again.



So now I'm not sure what to think, at first it was supposed to be a Love Story in capital letters but it seems that by the time he got around to making it, the Love Story had taken a backburner, getting a select number of scenes to make it work. Love stories generally are portrayed against a backdrop of something larger, so I would say that a third to half of AOTC is indeed a "Love Story" but that since Lucas really doesn't have a single cohesive storyline throughout the film instead splintering it into 2 main plots that don't converge until almost the very end that he really has 2 films on his hands there, 'Obi-Wan: Junior Galactic Detective', and 'Anakin & Padme: Forbidden Love Among the Stars'. That's how it feels to me, the pacing is so jerky to accomodate this that there's not 1 tale. ESB doesn't suffer this as badly because the pacing is more solid and the characters are all really facing 1 common enemy which they are dealing with in their own ways (Luke learns about the Force to combat Vader while Han & Leia hide from the Sith Lord).

Kidhuman
03-13-2005, 11:46 PM
I don't agree, a book is a single entity while these films are individuals, and while they make up an abstract story they themselves are still singular pieces, the "whole trilogy" isn't just an abstract singular story but a saga that takes place throughout 3 stories. You are still talking about making those first 2 films look better because they are part of a bigger story, but I argue that while the bigger story may be enhanced, the separate entities are not. A book is a singular entity, no matter how you slice it, these 3 films really ain't and that's where the difference lies.


But I am looking at the Trilogy as one whole stroy. It is telling the tale of Anakin Skywalkers rise to infamy. It is broken up over three seperate movies. The first introducxes the characters and the role players. Character development so to speak. It shows how he met up with the Jedi and his relationship with his mom.

AOTC, shows him ten years later, grown up,still kind of confused, but now, falling in love. Confused because he doesnt know how to act. He has no one to turn to. His mom then dies infront of him and he snaps. Slays everyone involved in his moms defeat.

And now...we get the end all to the story. We all know how it turns out even though we have nbot seen it yet. So in essence if this movie plays up toi its hype right now and follows the storyline that TPM and AOTC have laid out, it can the overall outlook of this trilogy better. Just my opinion.

Darth Kirk
03-14-2005, 01:05 AM
First off, I would like to state that making films for the sake of telling your own story is what George has always been about.. He has received much flack for many things he has done, and many will always find fault with his approach or with his shortcomings.. Here we all are, some/most of us complaining about something, and others of us revering what is in front of us.. I happen to be from the school of reverence for these magnificent films.. Whether the third film will show up the weaknesses of the other films is of no concern to me, since I have enjoyed ALL of these amazingly vivid films, whose lives will far surpass many films produced now and years to come. Star Wars IS an American icon that has held up the test of time, these past near 30 years, and will continue to flourish thru its fans.

2-1B
03-14-2005, 05:02 AM
JT:


I am very disappointed that you among all the people here would suggest that I would do otherwise.

Oh ? How did I do that ? I didn’t say that you DON’T like it, I said that you WON’T like it. Huuuuge difference there, good sir. That’s my prediction of your eventual opinion two months from now. If you end up liking the movie, good for you. I will have been wrong in my prediction (yet I predict I won’t be wrong in my prediction :D).


That is a really poor, narrow argument.
I am very disappointed that you among all the people here would accuse me of such. ;)


Heck, everybody I know in "real life" who saw it thought it was cool and exciting and not ONE of them thought much of TPM or AOTC (that ranges from like to hate on each film, no matter their opinions most people I know didn't think much of the films).

That’s a fair observation. I will amend that statement I made about “many people loving the trailer who disliked 1 and 2.” My comment was based just on what I saw here on SSG but yes I will concede that there ARE people who liked the trailer for 3 but disliked the movies of episodes 1 and 2. But then again, we’re just talking about a trailer, right ? :D I bet there were people who got worked over pretty fuzzy by the AOTC trailer but thought the movie bombed ?

I would be very interested to hear of your friends’ opinions of the movie vs. their opinions of the trailer.


Wow, thanks for warning me, I thought I'd go in and make up my mind later, but apparently now I don't have to.

Ahhhhh, no. I fully expect you to do just that, go in and make up your mind on your own. JT you are very well skilled in presenting your opinions of these movies and why you do or do not like something. I respect that. Really. :)
I just don’t understand why it’s so offensive to think that if a person didn’t like the last 2 movies written and directed by the same guy and starring (for the most part) the same principals with (for the most part) the same special effects crew, is it REALLY that offensive to assume that said person would not like the next one ?

Jeez, I’m not trying to make up your mind for you, I was just offering my prediction. :rolleyes: Just as I predict for myself that I will like this movie – I haven’t “made up my mind” before hand but from the way I reacted to the last 2 movies, I think it would be hard for me to NOT enjoy this one.


I haven't met you in person Caesar, but apparently according to your logic I already think you suck... good thing I don't go by your logic.

See, now that’s getting personal. I wasn’t saying that you wouldn’t like this movie as a personal assault on you, just basing my prediction/opinion on your public comments about the last 2 films and even now with the new film (I just read your thoughts re: the trailer and what you don’t like about it (shaky cams, Palps’ stashed lightsaber, etc. :D ).

I’m not offended by your comment JT but I am a bit surprised that you would take it to that level about me sucking. ;)


BTW, you never actually answered my question.

I tried !

My very first sentence in reply to your question was “First you have to consider whose point of view such a comment is coming from.”

Well duh, if you don’t like the first 2 movies but DO end up liking the 3rd movie, then of course it points out the “faults” of the last two.

Alright then, let me answer the question: For ME, the answer is a pretty simple “No” but then I don’t find huge faults with AOTC in the first place, so if it is my opinion that E3 is awesome, then how can it convince me of the faults of the past when I didn’t see them that way in the first place ? :confused:

Personally I don’t think ROTS will redeem the last 2 films but I certainly think it could “enhance” them just as ESB and ROTJ do in the OT.

I already like little Jake’s goodbye scene to his mom in TPM and I remember enjoying that little exchange in the theater, 3 years before AOTC came out. Well then I saw AOTC and enjoyed the Shmi death scene so now when I go back and watch TPM, of course I have the AOTC scene in mind which “enhances” my enjoyment of the TPM scene as a whole. Is that wrong of me to do that ? Come on, I’m not some member of a jury who can be instructed by a judge to disregard something I saw in court. :D

RussUAE
03-14-2005, 07:20 AM
You should think of making the Star Wars films as a reflection on Darth Vader's Life.

It all starts off well with the original trilogy, much as little Anakin starts off good.

Then it goes bad with TPM and AOTC, much as Ani went to the dark side.

But finally, redemption - in ROTS being a great film, and as in Darth Vader wasn't so bad after all.

stillakid
03-14-2005, 12:22 PM
First you have to consider whose point of view such a comment is coming from. With all due respect, the first two posters in this thread (JT and stilla) are the absolute LAST TWO people at SSG who would EVER even think of attaching a word like "great" to this upcoming prequel-sequel. So in that sense, it's really a pointless argument.

POV and context are very important (in regards to the first statement of yours) which is why your second statement is so very false. As said innumerable times before, if I (or JT or anyone else) really really hated Star Wars as I've been accused of countless times, I would have been more likely to dismiss the Prequels with a shrug and waste time doing something more productive (oxymoron? :sur: )...

Anyway, point being, there are two ways that a viewer has to view ROTS...the first is as JT suggested, how does it stand on it's own as a film? Second, how does it fit in with the rest of the saga? It is impossible to give a full critique without considering both aspects. With that in mind, as I've always tried to do, I'll look at ROTS relative to both questions and then arrive at a conclusion afterwards. Maybe it will be a "great" movie on it's own. That's entirely possible. Considering the two lead-ins, judging ROTS relative to the saga will be more difficult as it is pretty much a continuation of two poor bits of storytelling. 3 independent films, yes, but one overall story which, so far, has been struggling to meet the criteria of being watchable, much less "great."


Star Wars IS an American icon that has held up the test of time, these past near 30 years, and will continue to flourish thru its fans.
Well, the original trilogy has survived primarily because those films were so great and well-received by just about everyone. The Prequels are NOT being well-received except by a relatively small group of uber-fans who will lap up anything with the name Star Wars emblazoned on it. TPM made TONS of money because the general audience was expecting quality on par with the original trilogy. It didn't deliver so, relatively speaking, AOTC lost much of the core audience from the original days. ROTS may make tons of cash as well, by virtue of the fact that is (supposedly) the last Star Wars film and maybe even disenchanted "non-fans" may want a glimpse at how it all wraps up. But box-office profit does not necessarily automatically mean that a film is good or not. Even if the Prequels end up making another billion dollars, in the end, they are still, and will always be, a disappointing follow-up to what was a brilliant franchise. In other words, even though some people still drool over TPM, AOTC, and the ROTS trailers, these films could have been, and should have been, so much better. There really is no good excuse Lucas can give. He has reasons, but no good excuse.


But finally, redemption - in ROTS being a great film, and as in Darth Vader wasn't so bad after all.
There's a Hitler bio coming out too. :sur:

2-1B
03-14-2005, 12:49 PM
stillakid, I never said you and/or JT "hate" Star Wars.


Considering the two lead-ins, judging ROTS relative to the saga will be more difficult as it is pretty much a continuation of two poor bits of storytelling.

Yeah. That's all I was saying. :rolleyes:

Oh and by the way stillakid, funny how you claim here to be waiting on judging the new movie but you've already written up some damning reviews of the prequels as a whole without seeing the third installment. So forgive me for assuming that your review of ROTS will be too much different from 1 and 2. :rolleyes:


The Prequels are NOT being well-received except by a relatively small group of uber-fans who will lap up anything with the name Star Wars emblazoned on it.

I'm calling you out on this. You're a hypocrite for crying shenanigans when these other people accuse you of hating Star Wars yet you'll paint all people who like the prequels with the broad brush of "uber-fans" lapping up whatever George dishes out.

JT, I hope you will see that for the insulting comment it is. :mad:

;)

stillakid
03-14-2005, 01:27 PM
stillakid, I never said you and/or JT "hate" Star Wars.

I know you didn't. Sorry, didn't mean to infer that you did. Others have so I made one of those "broad brush" statements. I try to be inclusive of everyone. :D




Oh and by the way stillakid, funny how you claim here to be waiting on judging the new movie but you've already written up some damning reviews of the prequels as a whole without seeing the third installment. So forgive me for assuming that your review of ROTS will be too much different from 1 and 2. :rolleyes:
I do try to be careful when saying "the Prequels" by specifying I and II. In fact, a recent post actually said, TPM, AOTC, and ROTS trailers. I figured that it could go unspoken as obviously I have no idea what ROTS holds for us. No? I guess not. :(




I'm calling you out on this. You're a hypocrite for crying shenanigans when these other people accuse you of hating Star Wars yet you'll paint all people who like the prequels with the broad brush of "uber-fans" lapping up whatever George dishes out.

Touche'! Let me amend the statement with "a lot" of the fans who like the Prequels lap up whatever George dishes out. How's that? ;)

But from my "point of view", the Prequels are empirically poor storytelling in comparison to just about any other fictional story (not just Star Wars films) that anyone who does like them "a lot" must have some level of George-worship or Star Wars-worship going on. I'm not suggesting that there aren't some (a few) enjoyable elements within the films, but as a whole Episode's I and II (how was that? ;) ) are just not very good films compared to many other movies out there and anyone who does claim to like them "a lot" is either not being accurate in the description (as in, they like some elements but paint it as "great" as a whole), or they just don't know a well-told story when they see it. Or they just don't care too much about story in general and let themselves get caught up in the "thrill" or whatever.

Think of it this way. It's akin to someone who doesn't like the films to just say, "they suck." What does that mean exactly? They didn't like the story? Or the fx? Or the characters? What? I think that the same variety of "explanations" exist within the Prequel-accepters Association with the same variety and levels of articulation. Something like "ROTS is going to be the BEST film ever!" is just as useful as "It SUCKS." I've seen both comments here at SSG and both exist on opposite sides of the spectrum. Most people do fall somewhere comfortably inbetween.

Darth Kirk
03-14-2005, 01:30 PM
Stillakid, I disagree that 'I would lap up anything with Star Wars emblazoned on it.' It is quite pretentious of you to assume that my taste in movies is solely based on a shallow connection to Star Wars. Just so that you know, I actually enjoyed these prequels, the storytelling, the visualization and for you to state that these films, matter of factly, are poor, makes your supposed opinion a fact, which it isn't, its an opinion. A collectively held opinion, is still just that, AN OPINION; since the collectively held opinion is held by some, not ALL.

stillakid
03-14-2005, 01:43 PM
Stillakid, I disagree that 'I would lap up anything with Star Wars emblazoned on it.' It is quite pretentious of you to assume that my taste in movies is solely based on a shallow connection to Star Wars. Just so that you know, I actually enjoyed these prequels, the storytelling, the visualization and for you to state that these films, matter of factly, are poor, makes your supposed opinion a fact, which it isn't, its an opinion. A collectively held opinion, is still just that, AN OPINION; since the collectively held opinion is held by some, not ALL.



IBut from my "point of view", the Prequels are empirically poor storytelling...

And my point of view derives from a not so bad education punctuated with significant literary and writing courses as well as countless hours reading good and not so good literature and screenplays as well as significant amounts of writing myself. I'm not casting dispersions on anyone who chooses to enjoy the Prequels. Have at it. What I am saying is that in comparison to the original Star Wars films as well as countless other movies and literature, the Prequels (thus far) have been examples of subpar storytelling. And I recognize this because I have personal and professional experience with both the process of filmmaking and the process of writing and literary comprehension. (As in, I don't just go catch a flick on Saturday night with a date and a bag o' popcorn.)

Look at it this way, a plumber may look at a piping job and chuckle at the myriad of mistakes made by someone else. I'd look at the same and say, well, what's the problem? The water gets from here to there doesn't it?

Same thing here. The Prequels (thus far) do get us from point A to point B. But the machinations being used to do so aren't of a quality that we were led to expect based upon the original trilogy films. Most people accept TPM and AOTC without question because they may not know what details to look for that define "quality." To me, those things stick out like a sore thumb. Make sense?

The 'Xir
03-14-2005, 02:16 PM
I haven't read all the posts here yet!, but solely based on JT's questions, I'm in agreement with him that our perceptions won't change! I've always stated that I like all the films equally, although AotC was a little bit of a let down! I love TPM just as much as any of the OT films! But If I absolutely had to rank the movies in order including RotS(only going by what I know already) I'd say my list would look like this:

1) ANH - Come on! It started it all!
2) ESB - Just pure Magic!!!
3) TPM - Kept the fun adventureous spirit of the Originals!
4) RotS- It's what we've all been waiting for!
5) RotJ - Love 'em now, but still hard to look past the Ewoks! Throne room best scene in any SW movie!
6) AotC - Alone good story, however it's the weak link of the Saga! Comlpete let down of character development, and made it harder for RotS to close continuity issues!

stillakid
03-14-2005, 03:29 PM
If I may?



1) ANH - Come on! It started it all!True, but by default, no? I mean, if ANH hadn't been very good, nothing more would have come from it and Lucas would be down here directing episodes of The West Wing.


2) ESB - Just pure Magic!!!I personally wouldn't go that far, but it was pretty good. :)


3) TPM - Kept the fun adventureous spirit of the Originals!
Which parts exactly? The opening scroll and the end credits looked a lot like the originals, but what else? :confused:

;)


4) RotS- It's what we've all been waiting for!For the insanity to end? Then yeah.


5) RotJ - Love 'em now, but still hard to look past the Ewoks! Throne room best scene in any SW movie!What's wrong with the Ewoks? :confused: I mean, if the Ewoks are the reason you put ROTJ at #5 over TPM, then how do you reconcile that with the Gungans?


6) AotC - Alone good story, however it's the weak link of the Saga! Comlpete let down of character development, and made it harder for RotS to close continuity issues! All true, but also because TPM was such a poor lead in to AOTC. Even if ROTS was the best movie in the whole wide world on its own, it still will be handicapped by a poor foundation (TPM and AOTC). A mansion might be beautiful, but if it's built on quicksand, it will still sink.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-14-2005, 05:10 PM
Without reading most of the above (please excuse me if this has already been said).

I think when some people said that ROTS will make TPM and AOTC seem better, they didn't mean they'd eventually say (upon seeing ROTS), "Gee! What a great film! I think I shall now go home and watch TPM and AOTC, those are much better now." I think they meant (particularly Rick McCallum, who said this would make some of the "more painful" parts seem better) is that they'll see the seeds of ROTS in TPM and AOTC and appreciate them more.

For instance, I like Jar Jar a lot more after seeing AOTC, knowing he's there to eventually screw up and grant Palpatine those huge powers. You can see now that he's a butt-kisser, doing things so people will like him more. He thought that in proposing those powers for the Chancellor, Padmé and Palpatine would like him more. He wanted to be accepted after many years of being an outcast.

I think that ROTS will do that for other parts. What those are yet, I don't know.

Darth Kirk
03-14-2005, 10:01 PM
You know I guess it’s just me then.. It just seems sooo pretentious of whomever, in this case Stillakid, to state that just because he has a background that is a rich tapestry of experiences, then his opinion should be considered more like a fact, then the opinions of others... I do not agree with this elitist approach of expressing opinions and weighting them accordingly.. My background, for anyone who cares, is one that includes graduate school, filmmaking, and I also am a connoisseur of the different genres of film.. BUT NONE OF THAT MATTERS when comparing opinions, since I respect the opinions of others and accept them, it does not mean I will always agree, but I do respect them.. Everyone reaches their opinion based on experiences, ideas, comparisons, etc...
So again we come back to the OPINION of inferiority in the prequels.. I happen to think that there ISN’T ANY INFERIORITY within the films, and I reached this opinion from MY OWN experiences and background, again just my OPINION..

stillakid
03-14-2005, 11:04 PM
You know I guess it’s just me then.. It just seems sooo pretentious of whomever, in this case Stillakid, to state that just because he has a background that is a rich tapestry of experiences, then his opinion should be considered more like a fact, then the opinions of others... I do not agree with this elitist approach of expressing opinions and weighting them accordingly.. My background, for anyone who cares, is one that includes graduate school, filmmaking, and I also am a connoisseur of the different genres of film.. BUT NONE OF THAT MATTERS when comparing opinions, since I respect the opinions of others and accept them, it does not mean I will always agree, but I do respect them.. Everyone reaches their opinion based on experiences, ideas, comparisons, etc...
So again we come back to the OPINION of inferiority in the prequels.. I happen to think that there ISN’T ANY INFERIORITY within the films, and I reached this opinion from MY OWN experiences and background, again just my OPINION..
And you're entitled to it. :) I'm just saying that based on my similar experience to yours, I look at the Prequels so far and see inferior storytelling and inferior filmmaking relative to other storytelling and filmmaking.

As far as "respecting" other opinions goes, I don't see the validity of being required to respect every opinion that comes down the pike. If the opinion is based in solid experience and is well thought out, then I can then respect it. But usually, especially with something as subjective as "art," most opinions are based in superficial titillation and snap-judgements with nary a thought toward deeper critique in regard to themes and character. Those are elements which the vast majority of film audiences don't have a formal education in and in which they couldn't really care less anyway. So while a movie might provide a couple hours of giddy adrenaline, it doesn't mean that what they are watching is necessarily a quality piece of storytelling. It just means that they allowed themselves to get caught up in the superficial candy-coated roller-coaster. I'm "guilty" of allowing that in myself on occasion. Movies like SPEED and ID4 come to mind. Those are chock full 'o problems but I let 'em slide and sit back to enjoy the flick. I don't allow the same sort of leaway with the inherent problems in the Star Wars saga. They are there and that IS a fact. How a viewer allows himself to deal with the problems is a personal choice (A. hate them or B. rationalize them away).

Bossk77
03-14-2005, 11:06 PM
Well the way i see it we will either cheer because Lucas is done making Starwars movies, or long for more. Inter Lucas Jr. who will make 7-9 without actors at all.... thats right all CGI and smoke/mirors. Maybe they will sell out and let Trey and Matt "Team America" Starwars for the Super Special edition.:speech:

JediTricks
03-15-2005, 12:05 AM
But I am looking at the Trilogy as one whole stroy.In the end though, it's not. It's one saga, one epic tale, but each film is its own individual story and that is what I am talking about - you cannot take that out of the equation because ultimately it's still the truth, they have their own tones and feels, they all were made at different times and released separately. And when you say "It is telling the tale of Anakin Skywalkers rise to infamy. It is broken up over three seperate movies", that's not accurate because Ep 2 didn't exist when Ep 1 was written, and the same with Ep 3 since it didn't exist until after Ep 2 was made. They are separate entities, they weren't made as one story and then broken up afterwards the way Kill Bill was.



Whether the third film will show up the weaknesses of the other films is of no concern to me... Then why did you post in this thread?



Oh ? How did I do that ? I didn’t say that you DON’T like it, I said that you WON’T like it. Huuuuge difference there, good sir. What you were saying is that you believe I would not ever think of attaching the term "great" to it, suggesting I have already made up my mind about it even though I know almost NOTHING about the film. You're saying I will be too closed-minded to judge it on its own merits for whatever reason (I assume it's my stated distaste for the first 2 prequels though). It's not how you presented your comment, so if I misunderstood then keep in mind that it took 2 people to make that happen.:p

Considering this entire thread is already an exercise in hypotheticals, I can't imagine why you called it a "pointless argument" - I want YOU, ME, EVERYBODY participating in the thread to put yourself in the hypothetical mindset that the film is generally accepted as "great" and then apply that to general opinion about the other 2 prequels, I don't see how it's a pointless argument at all, I may disagree with your reasoning but at least you and I would be trying to give it a shot. It's not like I'm asking you to tell me why it is great or convince me it will be, just assume for the sake of argument that it already is.


I am very disappointed that you among all the people here would accuse me of such. ;) I am sorry to hear of your disappointment in my disappointment, as well as my sorrow on an unrelated matter. :D


But then again, we’re just talking about a trailer, right ? Well, I'm trying to extend it into the actual film, but some people are making that difficult. ;) :p


I would be very interested to hear of your friends’ opinions of the movie vs. their opinions of the trailer. I'll be honest, I don't remember their takes on the trailers of the other prequels. Hang on, I'll call someone... drat, they don't remember it. Come to think of it, I don't remember it - I remember the TPM one (which they don't) but not the AOTC one. Ok, then I guess I won't bother trying anybody else since I'm useless in this department. ;)


I just don’t understand why it’s so offensive to think that if a person didn’t like the last 2 movies written and directed by the same guy and starring (for the most part) the same principals with (for the most part) the same special effects crew, is it REALLY that offensive to assume that said person would not like the next one ?I liked Back to the Future 1 and 2, but that doesn't mean I liked BTTF3 as much (yet most people I know liked 1 and 3, not 2). You can never really know, so while you can make a guess there, if you put so much weight into that guess it becomes unfair to the discussion. And I still don't see why it matters in this thread if I will like ROTS or not since, as I said before, the point of this thread is to assume that generally "everybody" - including the person posting - already did like it even though that hasn't happened yet.


See, now that’s getting personal. I wasn’t saying that you wouldn’t like this movie as a personal assault on you, just basing my prediction/opinion on your public comments about the last 2 films and even now with the new film Yeah, but you were making a personal comment about me that really didn't have anything to do with the thread and came off rather harshly, whether it was intended to be a personal assault or not. You basically said this thread was a waste of time because it is impossible to believe that I will say/feel this film is great.


I’m not offended by your comment JT but I am a bit surprised that you would take it to that level about me sucking. ;) Don't blame me, blame all the other Caesars who suck. :D


My very first sentence in reply to your question was “First you have to consider whose point of view such a comment is coming from.”

Well duh, if you don’t like the first 2 movies but DO end up liking the 3rd movie, then of course it points out the “faults” of the last two.

Alright then, let me answer the question: For ME, the answer is a pretty simple “No” but then I don’t find huge faults with AOTC in the first place, so if it is my opinion that E3 is awesome, then how can it convince me of the faults of the past when I didn’t see them that way in the first place ? :confused: I suppose that's where the problem I had was born, you were taking this thread as individual responses when I was speaking more generally - the lack of clarity (I only used the term "audiences" once) is my fault I suppose. Still, I don't think my opinion of the film would make it pointless, not only because I asked for the poster to throw that aside, but also because it's merely a differing opinion - neither of us could really PROVE we're right, it hasn't happened yet, so it's open to interpretation.



You should think of making the Star Wars films as a reflection on Darth Vader's Life. It all starts off well with the original trilogy, much as little Anakin starts off good. Then it goes bad with TPM and AOTC, much as Ani went to the dark side. But finally, redemption - in ROTS being a great film, and as in Darth Vader wasn't so bad after all. Hmm, I think you just went both directions on that answer. Pretty sneaky! :D Of course, it's hard to forgive Space Himmler for torturing and killing so many people just because he's a happy smiling old man who eventually killed Space Hitler.



It is quite pretentious of you to assume that my taste in movies is solely based on a shallow connection to Star Wars. No, it's presumptuous of him. ;) And it is, he most definitely is PRESUMING something, no argument from me on that. Stilla gets himself into hot water by making that sweeping comment all the time, even in his rebuttal before your post he did it again. :D


I'm not casting dispersions on anyone who chooses to enjoy the Prequels. Pay close attention to your other comments Stilla:

anyone who does claim to like them "a lot" is either not being accurate in the description (as in, they like some elements but paint it as "great" as a whole), or they just don't know a well-told story when they see it. Or they just don't care too much about story in general and let themselves get caught up in the "thrill" or whatever.Seems like a pretty wide net you're casting there, you proclaim that these are the only reasons why people claim to like the prequels a lot, you decree it so and then are surprised when those who like the films don't appreciate you pigeonholing them into 1 of only 3 rather shallow reasons for making their claim.


And I recognize this because I have personal and professional experience with both the process of filmmaking and the process of writing and literary comprehension. Kirk, my mistake, he is being pretentious. Geez Stilla, try to find a barrier between your acedemic arguments and the fact that people actually are individuals and entitled to NOT fit within your limited scope of viewpoints, because ultimately when you claim your expertise here, all it is is acedemic, it is devoid of the real-life opinions and variables of the real people involved.


Look at it this way, a plumber may look at a piping job and chuckle at the myriad of mistakes made by someone else. I'd look at the same and say, well, what's the problem? The water gets from here to there doesn't it? Plumbing is not subjective, successful filmmaking is like any other art in that appreciation of it can definitely be subjective. That's ultimately what you appear to be neglecting to accept when you tell everybody that only the foolish could possibly like the prequels - it's one thing to believe that the case, it's another to actually tell someone that's their reasoning.

JediTricks
03-15-2005, 12:14 AM
I haven't read all the posts here yet!, but solely based on JT's questions, I'm in agreement with him that our perceptions won't change! A wise decision in not reading the posts, this thread quickly went off-track. Thanks for actually responding to the original issue.



I think when some people said that ROTS will make TPM and AOTC seem better, they didn't mean they'd eventually say (upon seeing ROTS), "Gee! What a great film! I think I shall now go home and watch TPM and AOTC, those are much better now." I think they meant (particularly Rick McCallum, who said this would make some of the "more painful" parts seem better) is that they'll see the seeds of ROTS in TPM and AOTC and appreciate them more. Ok, I see your point, but some people are still saying "it'll make Eps 1 and 2 better films" which is suggesting that the film as a whole will somehow be enhanced by Ep 3.

BTW, I don't see why we needed Jar Jar to be the sucker that gives Palpatine the extra powers, anybody could have been the patsy here, but supposing he had to be, why did we need to see him in Ep 1 doing all that stuff at all? The key to his character that is exploited in Ep 2 is explained in that film already, and it doesn't really riff off anything I see in Ep 1. (Also, I thought the idea was that Jar Jar wanted to feel useful and important, that is why he was so easy to manipulate in Ep 2, not because he wanted people to likehim, but that's just what I got out of it.) What would you say I am missing there?

plasticfetish
03-15-2005, 01:28 AM
I'm going to go with the "No, if Episode 3 turns out great, it won't cast more doubt on the other prequels" vote. I don't see how it could make the Ep. 1 and 2 critics (myself included) any more or less critical. I don't much see Ep. 3 having any kind of effect on my like or dislike of the other films. I'm sure the same "elements" (to use the word Stilla used a while ago) that I really like, will still be liked -- and I'm sure the same bits that make me cringe will still make me cringe.

What I'm hoping for from Episode 3, is that the inevitable cringe-worthy elements will be less significant and easier to ignore than they have been in past episodes.

That... and it's simply a very fun film to watch.

2-1B
03-15-2005, 01:46 AM
Stillakid:


I know you didn't. Sorry, didn't mean to infer that you did. Others have so I made one of those "broad brush" statements. I try to be inclusive of everyone.

Generous to a fault. :D


I do try to be careful when saying "the Prequels" by specifying I and II. In fact, a recent post actually said, TPM, AOTC, and ROTS trailers. I figured that it could go unspoken as obviously I have no idea what ROTS holds for us. No? I guess not.

Just for clarification, I had in mind a thread somewhere in which you cracked on Anakin/Hayden for being whatever it was (something bad :D ) as in not a good friend or a good man or whatever and I remember countering with something like “well maybe by the time we see this next movie he and Ben will be good friends by that time.”


Touche'! Let me amend the statement with "a lot" of the fans who like the Prequels lap up whatever George dishes out. How's that?

*sigh, I’m guilty of it too, I guess (see: my hot water statement to JT about kids being dumb in another thread :D ).

I dunno, maybe it’s just this whole internet thing . . . I have one friend at work who loves Star Wars (you might call him a “Prequel Defender” ;) ) and we talk SW in a casual manner and I have a few other friends who love Star Wars but are not NEARLY dorky enough (like me) to talk about the saga with strangers on the internet. :crazed:
One of them in particular though, is a big fan of the series in general as are his kids and on the whole he loves the prequels, too. But I’ll tell you this much, he is not much of a Hayden fan, or Jake for that matter. So if we’re talking ‘broad brushes’ here, he would probably get painted as a prequel lapper but there’s plenty he doesn’t like about it either.

If I had my own cut of AOTC, I would excise the droid factory scene from the moment that Threepio looks through that door until . . . well I’d have to chop around in there to keep the arena while losing all the swapped head junk.

You would cut the love scene stuff.

To each his own. :D


the Prequels are empirically poor storytelling

That’s really all I was basing my prediction on, my prediction that you won’t like ROTS all that much, or to be more certain I don’t see you calling it “great.” If you end up liking it, cool !

And if you post here in a few months that you don’t like the movie, I’m not going to sit here and say that you had your mind made up . . . I’ll just say that I’m not surprised if/when you don’t like it. :D

2-1B
03-15-2005, 03:10 AM
JT:


if I misunderstood then keep in mind that it took 2 people to make that happen.

You’re right. I read through this thread again and I will accept some blame if I wasn’t clear enough. So with that being said I’ll just clear up a few things quickly. :)


What you were saying is that you believe I would not ever think of attaching the term "great" to it,

Right. :)


suggesting I have already made up my mind about it

That’s where we differ ! It was not my intent to come across that way, I really don’t think your mind is made up – what I was trying to say was what I also told stillakid, that I find it unlikely that considering your reaction to the last 2 prequels, I don’t think George has anything that drastically different in store for us this go round.


You're saying I will be too closed-minded to judge it on its own merits

Again, not my intent. I think you WILL judge it on it’s own merits, I just think its merits will be rather similar to the last 2 films, both of which you dislike. So how likely is it that you will like the 3rd one ? :crazed:


I'll be honest, I don't remember their takes on the trailers of the other prequels. Hang on, I'll call someone... drat, they don't remember it.

Did you seriously call somebody in the middle of making that post ? That’s awesome. :D


You basically said this thread was a waste of time because it is impossible to believe that I will say/feel this film is great.

Yeah, I kinda did say that. Sorry :( I think I was looking at it as a rather loaded question then. Assume that ROTS is “great” and then I guess I took your meaning to say that it was also to be assumed that the last 2 films are faulty. I thought some more about what you said about people saying ROTS will “redeem” the last 2 and I should have taken that part of it into consideration more. Anyway hopefully now we have a better understanding.


this thread quickly went off-track.

Sorry about that, really I am. I even commented that I had another idea similar to this but I didn’t want to hijack your thread. A lot of good that did. :nerv:

Darth Kirk
03-15-2005, 09:21 AM
JediTricks:
I posted in this thread because I wanted to state my opinion on the prequels. :)

Stillakid:
I guess then we will agree to disagree.. I do not think that it is fair, nor wise to discount anyone else's opinion based on their backgrounds... Every single person brings in his/her own perspective when stating an opinion.. To deride someone's opinion because he/she does not live up to your strict barometer of experiences creates elitism and alienation.

Hey alien nation sucked.. whose with me.. and by the way, what is up with this 'No Darth Vader lighsaber duel clause' in Episode 3- Quite disheartening.. Oh yea, wrong thread.. sorry :confused:

stillakid
03-15-2005, 11:25 AM
JediTricks:
I posted in this thread because I wanted to state my opinion on the prequels. :)

Stillakid:
I guess then we will agree to disagree.. I do not think that it is fair, nor wise to discount anyone else's opinion based on their backgrounds... Every single person brings in his/her own perspective when stating an opinion.. To deride someone's opinion because he/she does not live up to your strict barometer of experiences creates elitism and alienation.

Hey alien nation sucked.. whose with me.. and by the way, what is up with this 'No Darth Vader lighsaber duel clause' in Episode 3- Quite disheartening.. Oh yea, wrong thread.. sorry :confused:


That's cool with me. :D Look, I'm not trying to be pretentious or presumptuous :D. I just feel strongly that there are universally accepted standards when it comes to writing fiction and George has failed time and time again to meet them. If you continue to doubt me, heck he admits himself that he hates writing and isn't a good writer. If you and others want to believe that this is all a wholly subjective argument (because it's "art"), then fine. But there is a strong circumstantial case supporting my assertion that A) George is a crappy writer and B) the stuff he produces without help from outsiders reflects his lack of writing skill. That being the case, we can look at Episodes I and II and realize that they really weren't created on a level equal to or greater than the original trilogy films therefore, I think, that A) anyone who claims to LOVE them is intentionally ignoring the problems or B) anyone who claims to LOVE them doesn't know any better.

I'm not saying that someone is "stupid" for liking a subpar piece of "art." I've admitted freely to doing that on occasion myself. Heck, I liked the new ROLLERBALL for cryin' out loud. Yeah, it was chock full o' problems worse than TPM, but then again, it wasn't really trying to fit into a pre-made mold the way TPM was required to do. There's a huge difference. Take JT's Back to the Future example. All three maintained a sense of story and "mood" continuity throughout, but had II or III diverted wildly from the established concept, the geeks over at SirMartysGuide would be deconstructing that one just like we do over here with Star Wars. The Godfather Trilogy is the same way.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-15-2005, 12:13 PM
Ok, I see your point, but some people are still saying "it'll make Eps 1 and 2 better films" which is suggesting that the film as a whole will somehow be enhanced by Ep 3.

BTW, I don't see why we needed Jar Jar to be the sucker that gives Palpatine the extra powers, anybody could have been the patsy here, but supposing he had to be, why did we need to see him in Ep 1 doing all that stuff at all? The key to his character that is exploited in Ep 2 is explained in that film already, and it doesn't really riff off anything I see in Ep 1. (Also, I thought the idea was that Jar Jar wanted to feel useful and important, that is why he was so easy to manipulate in Ep 2, not because he wanted people to likehim, but that's just what I got out of it.) What would you say I am missing there?

You're not missing anything. I don't think George had Jar Jar in mind all along to give Palpatine the powers, but for me anyway, it makes me appreciate the character more. And isn't part of feeling important and useful also having others like you? I think the reason he was Palpy's pawn in AOTC was because he was already established as being dumb and under the control of others, in addition to what had already been said. It wouldn't work if, say, Orn Free Taa had suddenly come into the picture and done it; I think it's better that it's someone we were already familiar with.

I don't agree that ROTS will make the others better, aside from what I already said. Maybe those folks who say it'll automatically make the others better are thinking along the same lines as I was, but not able to articulate it clearly enough? That, or they have expectations that are too high. I believe that ROTS will be better than TPM and AOTC, and maybe better than the OT, but I don't think it will have the power to make the other films suddenly seem wonderful for no reason.

vader121
03-15-2005, 02:05 PM
My 2 cents (maybe even 3) ...

I disliked PM as it was, to me, a major letdown. I envisioned the same magic that was the original Trilogy. Many bad choices were made with actors, storyline, and scenes. Others have called it kinda boring and I do agree with that. The only scenes I like is the setup scene for the battle between the Gungans and Droid Army and the lightsaber battle at the end. The rest was a yawn including the Pod Race (my opinion).

AOTC was an improvement from PM but still doesn't capture the magic of the original Trilogy. Several great scenes but still something is lacking.

With ROTS I am not expecting anything more than hopefully an improvement on the first two and do hope that many or all questions will be answered. However, after seeing the trailer it has the same feel of AOTC. It's early but I am not getting myself all worked up only to be dissapointed. ROTS will not be as good as the original Trilogy but will be entertaining and definitely worth seeing.

DarkArtist
03-15-2005, 03:25 PM
All six movies are actually one gigantic movie or book. That's how Lucas envisioned them originally before making it into a saga of movies. The idea to make them seperate movies was needed because who would sit through a 12 hour plus movie. If you look at it this way, the orignal trilogy sold in book form is now found more as three stories in one book. Give it ten years or so after ROTS is out of the theatres and you will see the prequels combined into one book or for that matter all six into one volume, the way Lucas intended it to be.
The fact that people believe that the prequels are boring or should have never been made is fine, but the story, according to interviews of Lucas himself, was already written before he released A New Hope. He felt that in order to grab the audiences attentions he should start by filming the middle of his epic so the audience would be captured in the age old tradition of Good vs Evil.
I for one feel that the prequels were very good in fact. True they may not hold up to the originals but then again I grew up watching them on the big screen, chasing down TIE fighters with my X-Wing and Luke figure. Yet even though I will always put the OTC on before the prequels there is still a part of me that wondered how it all started. I think the prequels might be been widely more acceptted if he shot them on the heels of the OTC and not waited twenty years to tell the tale. :)

stillakid
03-15-2005, 09:35 PM
The fact that people believe that the prequels are boring or should have never been made is fine, but the story, according to interviews of Lucas himself, was already written before he released A New Hope. He felt that in order to grab the audiences attentions he should start by filming the middle of his epic so the audience would be captured in the age old tradition of Good vs Evil.

The first part of your statement is fallacy. He didn't have anything more than notes for the rest of the saga even during and right after ANH. Each episode has been written and finalized pretty much just before (and recently during) actual production. In short, he's makin' it up as he goes.

The last bit is common knowledge as to why he decided to begin in the middle. But thanks. :)

JediTricks
03-16-2005, 01:45 AM
I'm going to go with the "No, if Episode 3 turns out great, it won't cast more doubt on the other prequels" vote. I don't see how it could make the Ep. 1 and 2 critics (myself included) any more or less critical. I don't much see Ep. 3 having any kind of effect on my like or dislike of the other films. I'm sure the same "elements" (to use the word Stilla used a while ago) that I really like, will still be liked -- and I'm sure the same bits that make me cringe will still make me cringe.Hypothetically, you walk out of the theater on opening day all pumped and amazed with Ep 3, it's another ESB for you, you don't think that at some point afterwards you might compare Ep 3 to Eps 1 and 2 and wonder why they weren't as good as the amazing Ep 3? That's what I wonder, if this movie blows me away how come those other 2 didn't work?



Just for clarification, I had in mind a thread somewhere in which you cracked on Anakin/Hayden for being whatever it was (something bad :D) as in not a good friend or a good man or whatever and I remember countering with something like “well maybe by the time we see this next movie he and Ben will be good friends by that time.” I remember that, it was Anakin not seeming like a "good friend" with Obi-Wan, I agreed that AOTC didn't deliver that one at all.


If I had my own cut of AOTC, I would excise the droid factory scene from the moment that Threepio looks through that door until . . . well I’d have to chop around in there to keep the arena while losing all the swapped head junk.
You would cut the love scene stuff. The IMAX cut does basically this, it works wonders. George handed this edit off to someone else, whom if I remember correctly wasn't that high up the chain of command there, and then didn't even bother with a "stamp of approval" since he was too busy on something else.


So how likely is it that you will like the 3rd one ? :crazed: I am trying not to think about it too much, but basically it's 50/50 - AOTC was so different from TPM to me that I don't think a pattern can be garnered from my opinion on those 2, even when you lump ROTJ into it (as much as I enjoyed the film as a kid, it's definitely not working for me now anywhere near as much). Keep in mind, I actually think AOTC is worse than TPM.


Did you seriously call somebody in the middle of making that post ? That’s awesome. :D It was a quick and rather confusing conversation unfortunately, but the power of the cell's address book does kick arse. ;)


Sorry about that, really I am. I even commented that I had another idea similar to this but I didn’t want to hijack your thread. Trust me, you aren't the only one at fault. The guilty shall know their names! Oh, sorry, got a little carried away there. :D I missed the other idea, what was it?



I posted in this thread because I wanted to state my opinion on the prequels. Well, that's not really what this thread is about, so you'll have to forgive my rather blunt question before. Feel free to start another thread about your prequel thoughts though. :)


what is up with this 'No Darth Vader lighsaber duel clause' in Episode 3- Quite disheartening.. I'm spoiler-free, but keep in mind that the stunt coordinator on Ep 2 said that absolutely there would be no Yoda saber duel, so I don't think there are any hard rules on this even this close to the film. I could be wrong, but that'd be a discussion for another thread (one in the spoiler section most likely).



I don't think George had Jar Jar in mind all along to give Palpatine the powers How about when George wrote TPM? If not, then...


but for me anyway, it makes me appreciate the character more. Would that constitute a "happy accident" or "intentional after-the-fact history-changing"? Lucas has been known to heavily use both, so I am not sure.


And isn't part of feeling important and useful also having others like you? They aren't mutually inclusive, sometimes they can be the same and sometimes not, depending on the person. A lot of folks want to feel viable but don't give a thought to having people like them, and a lot of folks want people to love them but don't care how it happens.


I think the reason he was Palpy's pawn in AOTC was because he was already established as being dumb and under the control of others, in addition to what had already been said. It wouldn't work if, say, Orn Free Taa had suddenly come into the picture and done it; I think it's better that it's someone we were already familiar with. Well, Orn Free Taa probably wouldn't have worked as effectively because he was already shown to be a puppet for the side of evil, but it would have made some sense. I don't remember anything in TPM establishing Jar Jar as under the control of others, he was a thief who disobeyed orders from his Jedi friends and from the Gungan bosses including on the field of battle. But we could have seen another eager-to-help dumb senator get tricked into it, or have Palpatine's plan simply box any other "good" senator into a position where he didn't realize that he had no choice but to assist the Chancellor (that happens in the US senate, as well as bribery but that would have sullied the "good" senator's position in the audience's eyes).



All six movies are actually one gigantic movie or book. That's how Lucas envisioned them originally before making it into a saga of movies. The idea to make them seperate movies was needed because who would sit through a 12 hour plus movie. If you look at it this way, the orignal trilogy sold in book form is now found more as three stories in one book. I know that's what Lucas has said, what he "wants", but I think it's impossible to actually get that, it's not like the Lord of the Rings trilogy or the Kill Bill series where they actually filmed all the movies together and then released them separately, Star Wars movies are written, directed, and filmed on their own 1 at a time and released that way, each one has a distinct voice. Even you say that they are 3 separate stories in one book.


The fact that people believe that the prequels are boring or should have never been made is fine, but the story, according to interviews of Lucas himself, was already written before he released A New Hope. He felt that in order to grab the audiences attentions he should start by filming the middle of his epic so the audience would be captured in the age old tradition of Good vs Evil. Meh, I never bought that line from Lucas, he had a vague outline of a few things, even when making ANH he had no real idea of what was to come in ESB or ROTJ, much less the real meat of the prequels. And even ANH went through a dozen massive changes before it actually settled on the story we now know.

IIRC, Lucas originally said he chose what became ANH simply because it could be told easiest and could stand alone should the other films never get made. He may have done a history-rewrite since then, certainly not out of character for the guy, but I never heard anything about the grandness of the middle of the tale, especially since ANH through ROTJ builds and could have just started with ROTJ for the "perfect" place to see the GvsE battle at its height. Of course, Stilla agrees with you on that part, so maybe it's just about the way I'm interpreting what you said (that, or you're both wrong ;)).


Hey, look at that, this reply "only" took an hour and 15 minutes. :mad:

Darth Kirk
03-16-2005, 02:53 AM
Can it be possible that these films were made in such a way that you would have such a varied response to its' quality.. There does seem to be discontent with the prequels, but there are also those of us that enjoy these films tooo.. I can't describe it, its like I pop the dvd in and it suddenly takes me to a place that is warm and cuddly, sorta like chillin' with an Ewok that passes the bong along.. and it just seems to bring me peace.. Yes, even the scene where (Jake) Anakin proclaims, 'Yipppeeee' and that soliloquy of anger/despair that (Hayden) Anakin blurts out about Obi and how 'He's holding me back!!!'.. Then I question my sanity and realize that, oh ma gosh, have I witnessed cinematic genius????? Mine eyes can not lie, I must watch it again.. And alas, the cycle begins again... :Ponder:

stillakid
03-16-2005, 12:17 PM
Can it be possible that these films were made in such a way that you would have such a varied response to its' quality.. There does seem to be discontent with the prequels, but there are also those of us that enjoy these films tooo.. I can't describe it, its like I pop the dvd in and it suddenly takes me to a place that is warm and cuddly, sorta like chillin' with an Ewok that passes the bong along.. and it just seems to bring me peace.. Yes, even the scene where (Jake) Anakin proclaims, 'Yipppeeee' and that soliloquy of anger/despair that (Hayden) Anakin blurts out about Obi and how 'He's holding me back!!!'.. Then I question my sanity and realize that, oh ma gosh, have I witnessed cinematic genius????? Mine eyes can not lie, I must watch it again.. And alas, the cycle begins again... :Ponder:

And alas, that's my quandry. In the past, I've liked to watch the preceding episodes (of whatever franchise) just prior to heading to the theater to view the next one. However, whenever I try to discover this rumored "cinematic genius" at work in I and II, instead of getting caught up in the rumored excitement, I find myself becoming frustrated and annoyed (maybe even angry) at the trainwreck which unfolds in front of me. Unfortunately, it is Star Wars, but more like the bastard incestuous cousin of the OT. It kinda has a resemblence to what we all came to love as Star Wars, but it's all twisted, ugly and evil.

So I guess my question (or plea) to the Prequel-Lovers is, how do I make myself ignore the crappy bits like you guys do so I can drool in obscene pleasure too? Believe me, I WANT to like this stuff, I just don't know how.

Darth Kirk
03-16-2005, 06:54 PM
Stilla, I really cannot properly explain what it actually is?? It does truly seem to be an intangible element that makes it difficult to put into words, but I will try anyways..
It is the simplicity of the stories; the emotions that are incited; the visual prose exuded and the grandeur of the action; all these elements just take my breath away..
I believe standards that anyone creates for categorizing a film as exceptional, good, or average filmmaking is definitely subjective.. There really isn't a set standard (other then characters, setting and plot) of what SHOULD be in a movie, the cinematic zeitgeist, if you will... Films are a stylistic expression, and the motives for their creation ranges from monetary allure to artistic self-expression, combinations of these, etc.. When I watch a film, I base my opinion after I have actually seen it,and if it inspires, incites and excites me, then it is ranked accordingly.. Subjective of course, but that is the way I reach my own opinion about any specific film.. The prequels so far have been a thoroughly satisfying experience every time I have watched them.. Simply put-
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder..
:)

scruffziller
05-19-2005, 03:46 AM
I can honestly say that EPS 3 has connected the prequels and has given them newfound relevance.

JediTricks
05-20-2005, 02:49 AM
I felt it tied up a few here's and there's, but I definitely didn't feel it made the first 2 better films or solidified their plots.

For those others who felt Ep 3 was the great film this thread mentions in the title, how do you feel now about Eps 1 and 2.

stillakid
05-20-2005, 03:56 AM
I felt it tied up a few here's and there's, but I definitely didn't feel it made the first 2 better films or solidified their plots.

For those others who felt Ep 3 was the great film this thread mentions in the title, how do you feel now about Eps 1 and 2.

Prior to going to see III tonight, I decided to sit down and watch I and II...something I hadn't done in a long time, a long time. :D

I can't explain exactly why, but I didn't have that urge to get up and make a sandwich that I recall having in the past during certain moments in both. I actually sat and watched them both all the way through. I still rolled my eyes at the usual places, but I didn't react in quite the violent way that I used to. :)

I did this to remind myself of the myriad loose ends and such that III was supposed to deal with. I think you summed it up best up above. It was two + hours of "here's what that means" and "here's what the fanboys asked to see." Not much actual plot in this one either and a couple of those are pretty questionable. I don't know what to think, honestly. I'll think about it more, but aside from some other "nitpicky" problems, I think that the biggest problem the Prequels have is in setting up Anakin's motivation for turning. And it all kind of begins with Padme's motivation for falling in love with him, namely that there isn't any. And because that part of the thin plot doesn't really exist in any believable way, everything that follows makes little sense. Sure, the fights and chases are fun and stuff as usual, but actually thinking about the story invites doubt in your own mind and scorn from fanboys. It's a no win situation.

2-1B
05-20-2005, 04:50 AM
JT, shall I assume that I will be granted my "public vindication" ;) for accurately predicting that you guys wouldn't like this movie much, even though I caught some heat for making such a suggestion ? lol lol lol lol lol

JediTricks
05-20-2005, 05:17 AM
JT, shall I assume that I will be granted my "public vindication" ;) for accurately predicting that you guys wouldn't like this movie much, even though I caught some heat for making such a suggestion ? lol lol lol lol lolLook, I tried REALLY hard to like this movie, I tried to go in with no expectations and let it "wash over me" without putting any thought into it, I had a little "this is cool" feeling in the beginning battle, then I felt kinda blank, then "why aren't I enjoying this?", then as I took it all in it felt hollow. It really sucks coming onto the forums tonight feeling like an aberration, like a freak who somehow can't enjoy what everybody else seemed to be gushing over. I come to this site and these forums to have fun, this is a big part of my Star Wars hobby, and today I feel like I am unwelcome here simply because this movie didn't do it for me, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't take your 5 laff-out-lowd smilies too well, you may well have been right with your assumption but damn it if I didn't give it EVERYTHING that I could and end up with a hand full of nothing. In the end, I feel more alone here than ever before no matter how much I try, I didn't even want to say how I felt about the movie because it would only further isolate myself from the guys I hang out with on these forums. I'm sure you've already made up your mind as to whose fault this is, so my words will likely fall on deaf ears, but I really hope you never have to feel empty, hollow, and betrayed by something like this and then know you are going to face hundreds of people treating you like a freak for not conforming to the perceived group-think.

JON9000
05-20-2005, 08:09 AM
If you don't like it, you don't like it. I cannot say why you do not, but I suspect that your palate has simply changed as you have gotten older, and you now require a different kind of film, or something else altogether, to leave you satisfied. It is neither good nor bad, but not enjoying the film doesn't make it bad either... you've just moved on. I sense this knowledge might be what has you down- something as simple as a movie cannot get you so amped anymore, and ROTS was the last shot...

stillakid
05-20-2005, 10:10 AM
It is neither good nor bad, but not enjoying the film doesn't make it bad either...
If you're looking for a superficial videogame, then yes. If one is looking for a good story well told, then no. These certainly doesn't preclude somebody liking it or disliking for whatever reasons they choose, but a weak story is a weak story no matter what anyone's personal opinions about it are. I've "gushed" over thin plots before myself in other films because I hadn't invested myself in them enough to really care one way or another. SPEED and Independence Day are perhaps two of the best examples. Great action and a lot of fun despite some rather glaring plot problems. But when they are done, I chose to say, who cares? I had a lot of fun! Which, I suppose, is what most people here choose to do, except that they refuse to acknowledge that there are significant problems in the first place.

2-1B
05-20-2005, 01:18 PM
JT, I'm not sure I follow you about feeling isolated . . . I logged on today and I'm seeing tons of complaints everywhere, so you're not the only one who didn't like the movie. :)

I don't think you should feel unwelcome. Speaking of feeling unwelcome, look at stillakid's post above me, same old stuff about how we choose to like crap. lol If that's not insulting and unwelcoming, I don't know what is. lol lol lol (only 3 LOLs that time, I don't want to overdo it again).

JON9000
05-20-2005, 03:04 PM
a weak story is a weak story no matter what anyone's personal opinions about it are.
If a weak story is a weak story no matter what people's personal opinions are, then how come people disagree on whether or not it is a weak story? I think Meat Loaf is a nasty dish, but others love it. Barf.

Actually, I find the prequel story compelling enough, I thought the primary problems were:

1. there wasn't quite enough to sustain three movies
2. shaky execution in a couple of key sequences (particularly the love scenes in Clones) didn't set up the payoff as well as they should have.
3. I felt a little abandoned because I obviously was not the target audience for Ep I & II given some of the juvenilia.
4. knowing what happens before it happens does a lot to deflate dramatic tension. :(

Frankly, I thought ROTS was about as good (darn good) as it could have been, given the uneveness of the first 2.


SPEED and Independence Day are perhaps two of the best examples. Great action and a lot of fun despite some rather glaring plot problems. But when they are done, I chose to say, who cares? I had a lot of fun! Which, I suppose, is what most people here choose to do,

Yeah, that's probably true. I know there are a couple of continuity problems, but unfortunately, airtight logic and drama don't always go hand-in-hand, although I might wish it otherwise. Like you say, I choose to say, eh, who cares? It's fun!


except that they refuse to acknowledge that there are significant problems in the first place.

Most of the comments I have read here, in all fairness, observe that the prequels have their problems. There certainly some people who love it upside down and think there isn't a blessed thing wrong with them, and that's okay, too, but I don't count myself among them.

stillakid
05-20-2005, 04:08 PM
If a weak story is a weak story no matter what people's personal opinions are, then how come people disagree on whether or not it is a weak story? I think Meat Loaf is a nasty dish, but others love it. Barf.
Ah, interesting analogy. But let me ask you this? What recipe are you using? Because while you might claim to disdain meatloaf entirely, perhaps you have only had inferior meatloaf. No? In the same way, if one was subjected to nothing but bad movies, wouldn't they come away feeling like they hated all movies since that's all they've ever experienced? Chew on that one for awhile. :D

In the meantime, I have to change my dinner plans... :(


Frankly, I thought ROTS was about as good (darn good) as it could have been, given the uneveness of the first 2.
And you know, for what it's worth, UPON MY FIRST AND ONLY VIEWING*, I actually rather had a good time during this 2+ hours despite the problems we've all been trying to talk about. :) It's true, if you shut your brain down and don't think at all about logic and other annoying details, ROTS can be an enjoyable couple of hours. :) No, I'm not kidding! :)


* opinion subject to change

basschick
05-20-2005, 04:34 PM
i went to ep3 expecting to have a great time. i sorta liked ep2 - i felt that it showed some things like the beginning of the cranky weird old hermit that obi wan was to become. i even liked ep1 when anakin wasn't saying "yippee" and jar jar wasn't being nauseatingly cute.

to me, all nitpicking aside, anakin was the sweet and self-disciplined kid who then spent 13 years with the jedi (especially obi wan) and then his wife - a woman of strong principals who speaks of those principals and lives them.

i will never believe that a person who had all that going on would throw it all away so easily.

why couldn't palpatine have used misdirection instead of simply saying "join the dark side?" and why would anakin - who minutes before still sort of believed in the jedi - go kill all those kids? it's just not a beginner's assignment for a guy who wants to believe he's a good guy.

El Chuxter
05-20-2005, 04:49 PM
Call me insane, but I didn't like this movie. I still love AOTC, and I can live with TPM even though it's only an average-quality movie.

But I thought this movie was bad. My avatar and signature are intended to be taken somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but my wife told me I was groaning in disgust during the movie, and that is something I never do! When the credits rolled, I stuck around because I love John Williams' scores. (George butchered the end title music in editing, but that's another story.) At that point, I wondered how it would look come the end of the year, when my DVD collection will include every SW movie but this one, since (as I told her) I then had no plans to ever watch the movie again.

I realized shortly afterward that I'd already made arrangements to see it again on Sunday with my niece. Half of me is cringing at the prospect of sitting through this mess again. The other half is looking forward to it, wanting to like it.

I want the prequel trilogy to end well. I love the story here, but flaws in the telling got to me. Have I gotten old since I saw AOTC? I don't think so. Am I unfairly comparing it to the superior Clone Wars TV show? Perhaps. I don't know why I didn't like it. I really, really want to.

I hated Fellowship of the Ring the first time I saw it. I would never have watched it again had my parents not wanted to see it. The second time, I was thinking to myself, "Why the hell did I not love this? This is great!"

Same thing with The Graduate and several other films. Sometimes a movie just doesn't hit me the first time, and I can never figure out why. I hope this is the case with ROTS. I would like nothing more than to come back here Monday and say, "Guys, I was wrong. This movie rules!"

Anyway, why I'm posting this here: Right now, thinking ROTS was so inferior, it completely destroys the other prequels. They weren't perfect, but it was easy to overlook the flaws in the hopes of the big finale. But now, without the finale, they seem pointless to me. It's like Hamlet, but cut off with Pelonius' death.

If I don't like ROTS this weekend, I don't think I can ever watch the other two again. :(

2-1B
05-21-2005, 12:26 AM
Good luck with that Chux, seriously. :)
If you do end up liking it the second time, we'll be waiting for you with open arms (along with Steve Perry :crazed: ).

JediTricks
05-21-2005, 01:21 AM
If you don't like it, you don't like it. I cannot say why you do not, but I suspect that your palate has simply changed as you have gotten older, and you now require a different kind of film, or something else altogether, to leave you satisfied. It is neither good nor bad, but not enjoying the film doesn't make it bad either... you've just moved on. I sense this knowledge might be what has you down- something as simple as a movie cannot get you so amped anymore, and ROTS was the last shot...I don't think so, even though I thought it was pretty light in the story I enjoyed Sky Captain, and I still love junk "popcorn" movies, I enjoyed ID4, I liked The Mummy. The Matrix tapped my interest pretty hard, yet both sequels I felt were awful, I still dig Tron and UHF and stuff like that, I don't think my tastes have changed that much, I honestly think the quality of movies has.



JT, I'm not sure I follow you about feeling isolated . . . I logged on today and I'm seeing tons of complaints everywhere, so you're not the only one who didn't like the movie. :) Keep in mind that when I wrote what I did yesterday, the atmosphere around fandom was decidedly different, it was as if those that didn't like it X-amount were nervous to speak up, and the first day of comments were gushing from both SSG forumites and media reviews like Kevin Smith and Ebert & Roeper.


Speaking of feeling unwelcome, look at stillakid's post above me, same old stuff about how we choose to like crap. lol If that's not insulting and unwelcoming, I don't know what is. That was the other problem, when stilla was basically the only one saying anything that wasn't gushing about the film, he caught more of the "you're a crackpot" stuff from the majority of users, if that is the only boat to find ones self in, it seems like isolation is implied, aligning ones self with fringe behavior isn't generally the best way to integrate ones self into a conversation. I had originally not planned to express my opinions about Ep 3 yesterday at all, it was only a couple comments in the Just Found LA thread that gave me enough courage to not feel alone. It's such a minor thing in the grand scheme of life, I know, but within our dynamic here it is a pretty major thing.


BTW, like Chux, I had already determined to see Ep 3 again on Monday before I left the parking lot of the theater yesterday. I always try to give things a second chance, though Ep 2 did me so wrong that I barely cared at all about giving it a second chance and only saw it twice in regular theaters and a 3rd time at IMAX because of that unique experience.

2-1B
05-21-2005, 02:05 AM
For what it's worth then, I don't think anyone should be nervous to speak up. :)
Though it was not my intent, if my intial 5 LOL post came across as too snobby, I apologize.

I think I only took shots at 2 of the "haters" (and I don't mean that term in a divisive way lol ), those 2 being Chux with whom I have a very good rapport (plus, I did so in Haiku which is always fun :crazed: ) and I made a crack at stillakid about the word "helped" in the "Helped the Empire Hunt" thread but I've been jousting with stillakid over Star Wars for years. Nothing new there. :D

JediTricks
05-21-2005, 02:43 AM
To be honest Caes, I wasn't railing against you over the smilies or anything, it was just a matter of timing and that general feeling that was around, I was actually trying to respond and to give you a serious response to your initial comment and follow-up, it's just that it was a very intense feeling around here at the time. Plus, and I don't want to get too political, but in the times we live in, it does hit too close to home when it feels like there's too much pressure by the majority to silence opinions of others (I think this is actually touched upon very briefly by Lucas in the film and by Lucas's own comments in the press lately).