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sith_killer_99
03-13-2005, 05:40 AM
I've kinda been wondering about this line from ANH.

No other time in the films is there any indication that age weakens a persons ability to use the force. Yoda was 900 years old and he was pretty strong in the force. In EP2 Dooku was at least as old as Obi-Wan was in ANH and he was strong! The Emperor was older than Obi-Wan in the OT and he was certainly strong!


SPOILER!!!


In fact, the indication is that Vader would have been weaker because he lost part of his body. Considering the fact that Obi-Wan defeats Anakin in EP3 it would seem to me that he should have been able to defeat him in ANH.

Yet Vader says "Your powers are weak old man."

He seems to be implying that Obi-Wan got weaker in the force with age!

It just dosen't add up.

Thoughts?

scruffziller
03-13-2005, 06:46 AM
Vader perhaps got stronger in the Dark Side. But I always saw the line as nothing more than a taunt.

Slicker
03-13-2005, 06:32 PM
It's kind of a slap in Ben's face like saying "What? That's all that you've got?".

Imperial Monarche
03-13-2005, 06:49 PM
That's exactly how I saw it. Vader was just trying to get a rouse out of Obi-Wan. It's like boxers telling each other that they suck or they are weak (with some expletives, no doubt!) when in reality they are really both good and both strong. Plus, I think we will see in ROTS that Anakin and Obi-Wan are fairly matched and Obi-Wan may just get lucky, barely escaping the battle with his life and inch a victory from Anakin. So, the battle in ANH could easily have gone either way and lasted pretty long, but Obi-Wan gives up and lets Vader defeat him so he could be with Luke at all times. Remember, he tells Vader "If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine." True, he could no longer be physically powerful, but what is more powerful than omnipresence.

Bossk77
03-13-2005, 07:08 PM
I see it more as Vader/Anakin trying to making his point that he was caught up in durring the Anakin years. lol Anakin was rather intrenched in his belief that Obi Wan was holding him back, and how he was more advanced and powerful than Obi was. Vader also ties this with the circle being complete and being the master. Lucas could have constructed ep 2 to give Vaders words more meaning in A New Hope.

JediTricks
03-13-2005, 10:23 PM
No other time in the films is there any indication that age weakens a persons ability to use the force....

Yet Vader says "Your powers are weak old man."

He seems to be implying that Obi-Wan got weaker in the force with age! I don't think he's implying that Ben's powers are weak BECAUSE he's old, just that he's old AND his powers are weak. Maybe he means they were always weak, or that Ben's light-side powers are no match for Vader's dark-side powers, or that Ben hasn't kept up practicing his Force abilities over the years. My feeling is that Vader is referring to the fact that he just spent a moment sparring with Ben and Ben didn't really do fare that well in the fight, that Vader expected Ben's powers to have been more effective than they were, that Ben worked too hard to defend himself from Vader's onslaught.

Turambar
03-14-2005, 07:44 PM
I think that it was intended to mean that his physical abilities had waned with age being almost 70 and 20 years older than Vader. That also made sense as to why Yoda could only instruct Luke since and from his line, "strong am I with the force, but not that strong." I assumed even though he still had the power, he would not be doing any flipping around and screaming.
In fact, I remember reading something Lucas said about TPM in that we would finally see fully trained jedi in their prime -- not old men or untrained kids duking it out.
In TPM we saw QG was not nearly as agile as the younger Obi-Wan even though he was very strong in the force.
Then Lucas gave us the slip. It turned out Obi-Wan was only in his 50s in ANH and vader only about 40?!
Next we see an 80 year old Dooku whip up on both Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Finally yoda only 2 years younger in yoda years (1 = 10) than he was in ESB transforms into sonic the hedgehog.
So the logic is destroyed and that line becomes merely a taunt. And we wonder why Yoda wouldn't go help Luke whip Vader in ESB.

JediTricks
03-14-2005, 11:02 PM
That also made sense as to why Yoda could only instruct Luke since and from his line, "strong am I with the force, but not that strong." I assumed even though he still had the power, he would not be doing any flipping around and screaming.Except that the line you're quoting is specifically about Yoda keeping death at bay, not about fighting battles himself.


And we wonder why Yoda wouldn't go help Luke whip Vader in ESB.Yoda says over and over that Luke isn't ready to face Vader, Yoda feels going to Bespin is a terrible idea, even if he were capable I doubt he would do it. Then there's the pre-prequels notion that Yoda isn't a fighting Jedi, he's a thinking Jedi, he is after all the person who said "wars not make one great!" in response to Luke's (and the audience's) preconceived notions about who and what a Jedi Master is.

BTW, isn't Mace Windu supposed to be like 80-something?

Turambar
03-17-2005, 11:35 PM
Except that the line you're quoting is specifically about Yoda keeping death at bay, not about fighting battles himself.

Yoda says over and over that Luke isn't ready to face Vader, Yoda feels going to Bespin is a terrible idea, even if he were capable I doubt he would do it. Then there's the pre-prequels notion that Yoda isn't a fighting Jedi, he's a thinking Jedi, he is after all the person who said "wars not make one great!" in response to Luke's (and the audience's) preconceived notions about who and what a Jedi Master is.

BTW, isn't Mace Windu supposed to be like 80-something?
Does it say in the script that the Yoda line is specifically about keeping death at bay? Either way, he is admitting to the limitations of a physically impaired body. That's what happens as old age takes its toll -- death.
To me, this doesn't make sense: If Luke was next to their last hope, you'd think Yoda would do more than sit back and let him go. He was very pushy in telling Luke to listen to spirit of Obi-Wan's advice before leaving -- since he was to old and disabled to go himself. Like I also said before, old Obi-Wan & old Vader have a senior citizen style duel and old Qui-Gon moves with much less agility than the younger Obi-Wan & Maul.
I would never believe the 50ish year old Sam Jackson is playing an 80 year old Jedi. Christopher Lee is about 80 and he looks way older than Sam Jackson in the movie.

JediTricks
03-18-2005, 10:17 PM
Does it say in the script that the Yoda line is specifically about keeping death at bay?You tell me:

YODA: Soon will I rest. Yes, forever sleep.

Yoda sits himself on his bed, with great effort.

LUKE: Master Yoda, you can't die.

YODA: Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong! Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
Honestly, I can't see how you can take it any other way. If you take it out of the context it is in, you may as well just be taking the letters out of the words and saying they spell something else.



Either way, he is admitting to the limitations of a physically impaired body. I totally disagree that the "Strong am I with the Force..." line says that, nothing there suggests that his comment is predicated upon his increased frailty. Nowhere does Yoda say that "perhaps when I younger, stronger, healthier, I could have used the Force to keep death away." Earlier he says he has grown old and sick, but here he is saying that he is strong with the force but not so strong as to cheat death, they're 2 separate statements.


That's what happens as old age takes its toll -- death. Yes, but what's "old age" in the Star Wars universe? Yoda is 900 years old. Mace is supposedly 80 and Dooku is older. In ANH Obi-Wan is between 50 and 70 - depending on how much PT timeline you accept - and doesn't seem to be in any failing health at all, minus the lightsaber through the face of course. Obi-Wan's death isn't an inevitability based on his age at the time, because he's just not THAT old. Yoda can barely walk and breathe, Obi-Wan is still cutting fools in half at a moment's notice, hiding in crawlspaces, whipping through the Death Star, and using the Force to con Imperial troops into believing anything he says. And keep in mind, the entity Ben sparred with on the Death Star is the same guy who ripped through Cloud City attacking Luke with great speed and ferocity, and did it again 6 months later on the DS2 - so if Ben can keep his own against this guy for 10 minutes or more, then lose the battle only due to a suicide move to save Luke and help guide him through the Force after death, I don't think we're looking at some crotchety old geezer who needs a walker.


To me, this doesn't make sense: If Luke was next to their last hope, you'd think Yoda would do more than sit back and let him go. He was very pushy in telling Luke to listen to spirit of Obi-Wan's advice before leaving -- since he was to old and disabled to go himself. Well, first off, Yoda knows that Luke is *not* their last hope. Second, Yoda is letting Luke learn from mistakes just as he did with the cave - Luke was warned about the cave yet went in there and failed anyway. Third, I think Yoda could have stopped Luke if he wanted to restrain the boy, but that would have only served to further hamper Luke's Jedi training. What would Yoda have gained if he had gone to Bespin with Luke? A dead Luke? A dead Yoda? A dead Vader but a live and still powerful Palpatine, coupled with a very cocky half-trained Luke which would play right into Palpy's hands?


Like I also said before, old Obi-Wan & old Vader have a senior citizen style duel and old Qui-Gon moves with much less agility than the younger Obi-Wan & Maul. I already mentioned the "old Vader" thing above, this is the same guy who whomped on Luke throughout ESB's final act and again through much of ROTJ's. As for Qui-Gon, look at that final battle again, Qui-Gon is schooling Maul every time it's a 1-on-1 battle between them, yet every time the young, brash Obi-Wan comes to "help" he ends up getting in the way and letting Maul get the upper hand. Qui-Gon lays the smack down on Maul a lot when Obi-Wan ain't around, right up until that last scene where he just decides to stop and get stabbed.

I believe the rationale for Mace's age discrepency is that he's of a different race of humanoids. I dunno, it's been 6 years since I saw that AND I could be mistaken. ;)