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View Full Version : Palpatine Reveals He's A Sith in ROTJ



Von-El
03-16-2005, 01:35 AM
In the original trilogy, Darth Vader is "the face and voice of the Emperor" and that Darth Vader is believed to be the very last of the Force wielders, per the words of Governor Tarkin in ANH--as the galaxy is unaware of the Emperor's Sith Religion and darkside force powers.

While privately immersed in his arcane studies and in the Empire's politics, Palpatine has Darth Vader to do his dirty work. This is why we don't see him in the original trilogy using a lightsabre but using the force and force lightning.

And by the way, in ROTJ, as the Emperor and his dignitaries are walking through the hangar to the Thrownroom with JerJerod, Darth Vader, and other Imperial officers, Palpatine is speaking pretty loudly with Vader about how together they can turn Luke to the Darkside of the Force.

This makes me think that with the second Death Star, his belief that the Empire will ultimately win against the Rebellion, and Luke going to the Darkside, Palpatine reveals he is a force wielder of the Sith for the Empire and galaxy to know.

JediTricks
03-16-2005, 02:08 AM
It's Imperial custom that when the Emperor strolls by, you have to hum loudly and stick your fingers in your ears. Of course, if the Emp was a Sith, then he could simply influence the minds of his troops so they wouldn't remember that part of the conversation, but he'd have to be a Sith to do that. ;) Yeah, I never understood why some folks were positive that despite the Force powers like influence, mind-reading, telekenesis, lightning bolts, and the ability to sense Luke's foray into the Force-pool, that ROTJ Palpatine was either not a Sith, not a true Force-user at all, or not even the same guy as TPM Palpatine.

stillakid
03-16-2005, 12:35 PM
It's Imperial custom that when the Emperor strolls by, you have to hum loudly and stick your fingers in your ears. Of course, if the Emp was a Sith, then he could simply influence the minds of his troops so they wouldn't remember that part of the conversation, but he'd have to be a Sith to do that. ;) Yeah, I never understood why some folks were positive that despite the Force powers like influence, mind-reading, telekenesis, lightning bolts, and the ability to sense Luke's foray into the Force-pool, that ROTJ Palpatine was either not a Sith, not a true Force-user at all, or not even the same guy as TPM Palpatine.

Um, that resembles me. :D

I don't think Palpatine really should be a Force user until well into ROTJ for several reasons (which I've stated previously). The first is that there is no need for him to be. As pointed out, Palps has other people doing his dirty work for him constantly. He's the brains, they're the brawn. Period. He doesn't have to so he isn't. An adjunct to this is that it makes for a stronger thematic story to show that political unheaval is possible without magic and sorcery. Palpatine's cunning against an apathetic population is all that is necessary.

Second is that during the time leading up to TPM and throughout AOTC, had he been using Force powers, he would have inadvertently "disturbed" the energy field surrounding all living things (the Force) and alerted the Jedi to his presence. We KNOW from ANH that a Jedi can send off little ripples just be standing around, so it only sticks to continuity that if Palps was also a Force user, the Jedi would definitely have sensed him numerous times by now.
This silliness about the Dark Side being able to "mask" his presence is a pretty ridiculous band-aid to cover up a massive problem like this.

Third, up to now anyway, we haven't seen or heard Palpatine do or say anything that smacks of Force ability until ROTJ. In ESB, he never says that he sensed young Skywalker, only that he knew that Luke was out there. That information easily could have come from spies and such. The very first indication of actual Force usage comes at the very end of ROTJ when Palps removes Luke's handcuffs. The rest is all talk about how he "forsees" the future, all which come off as "boasting" to Vader in order to keep the chain of command clear.

So, yes, it appears that now with ROTS Lucas is introducing a massive continuity problem which didn't have to exist. Now we HAVE to use that nonsensical bit about the Darkside masking or hiding Palp's presence. And we lose that (timely) political message about simple apathy in the population causing a subversive coup.

Lucas is an idiot.





PS. Oh, I forgot one other thing. In ANH, Tarkin tells Vader that "you my friend are the last of their religion." Amongst other problems with that statement caused by sloppiness in the Prequels, one would think that Tarkin, being the head guy in charge of the Universe's biggest tank, would be quite aware that Palpatine was also a "Jedi" or whatever he saw Vader as. So for him to proclaim that Vader is the last of them tells us quite clearly that either he doesn't know that Palps is a Force-user or that Palpatine isn't a Force user yet. It's really that simple.

darthvyn
03-16-2005, 03:27 PM
i don't think that we loose that political message at all: it's all the more dire! the apathetic population can let the most evil man in the galaxy become emperor. otherwise, he's just another lousy politician.

and if no one survives to tell anyone that he IS a force user, then no one knows!

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-16-2005, 05:29 PM
PS. Oh, I forgot one other thing. In ANH, Tarkin tells Vader that "you my friend are the last of their religion." Amongst other problems with that statement caused by sloppiness in the Prequels, one would think that Tarkin, being the head guy in charge of the Universe's biggest tank, would be quite aware that Palpatine was also a "Jedi" or whatever he saw Vader as. So for him to proclaim that Vader is the last of them tells us quite clearly that either he doesn't know that Palps is a Force-user or that Palpatine isn't a Force user yet. It's really that simple.
Whatever way you look at it, he was wrong. Obviously there are still a few Jedi left, and Vader was a Sith anyway (though Motti likely meant force-users in general). Tarkin was trying to convince Vader (or himself) that Obi-Wan was gone and their "fire has gone out of the universe." It's possible that Tarkin was just saying that Vader was one of the last force-users, not necessarily the last one. Or really, maybe he forgot for a minute.

In ESB, Palpatine says (in both old and new versions): "There is a great disturbance in the Force," and later, "The Force is strong with him." Obviously from those statements you can tell that Palpatine can tap into the Force. It's really that simple.

Von-El
03-16-2005, 07:48 PM
Stillakid, in ESB while Darth Vader is speaking with the Emperor via hologram,
the Emperor does let on that he is a Force-wielder by stating that there is a great disturbance in the force--that the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi because he could destroy Vader and the Emperor. Only a Force wielder would know that the force is strong with someone. "The force is strong with him."

Vader says that if Luke could be turned (to the darkside), he would become a powerful ally and he Emperor replies yes, he would be a great asset and asks Vader if it could be done. Vader says he (Luke) will either join us or die.

Imperial Monarche
03-16-2005, 10:31 PM
Um, that resembles me. :D

I don't think Palpatine really should be a Force user until well into ROTJ for several reasons (which I've stated previously). The first is that there is no need for him to be. As pointed out, Palps has other people doing his dirty work for him constantly. He's the brains, they're the brawn. Period. He doesn't have to so he isn't. An adjunct to this is that it makes for a stronger thematic story to show that political unheaval is possible without magic and sorcery. Palpatine's cunning against an apathetic population is all that is necessary.

I agree and disagree with you on that statement. True, throughout the entire story, he does have other people doing his dirty work. However, as with anything in nature no matter how covert they wish to be, once your cornered, you react. We'll all find out in ROTS how exactly this comes to past, but I believe Palps had no intention of the Jedi ever knowing his true identity. But, then they come to arrest him however the events play out. So, now he's caught and cornered so the only reaction is to attack them and in doing so he must use the Force. No matter how "brainy" he is, he will still overlook or underestimate a situation, like he did with Luke. So, he must call on his powers as a reaction.

Now, I agree with you that these scenes should not take place in ROTS and are better suited for ROTJ, but not for the same reasons as you listed. Techcnically, this is the middle chapter of a six part saga, so why pull out all the stops in the middle? I understand that this is the last SW movie and Lucas really, so badly it's been itchin' him in places not appropriate to talk about, wants to show the powers of the Dark Side from the master himself, but that needed to be done in ROTJ if we are expected to watch in chronological order. That is really the only complaint I have, even though I'm really going to like watching those scenes just for visual sake. I don't quite see how Palps using the Force in ROTS takes away from his cunning political savvy. Up to ROTS, Palps hasn't used the Force and manipulated his way to the top, going from Senator to Supreme Chancellor and the finally Emperor, by playing on the emotions of his fellow senators.


Second is that during the time leading up to TPM and throughout AOTC, had he been using Force powers, he would have inadvertently "disturbed" the energy field surrounding all living things (the Force) and alerted the Jedi to his presence. We KNOW from ANH that a Jedi can send off little ripples just be standing around, so it only sticks to continuity that if Palps was also a Force user, the Jedi would definitely have sensed him numerous times by now.
This silliness about the Dark Side being able to "mask" his presence is a pretty ridiculous band-aid to cover up a massive problem like this.

Who said he had been using the Force all the way up until then, though. Since we don't know that information for sure, it's pretty much a moot point. Now, calling the ability to mask his existance "silliness" is just ridiculous. Obi-Wan uses the Force on stormtroopers in ANH to cloud their mind to think of something else because they are of the weaker minded. It's been stated a few times that the Dark Side is more powerful, so compared to the Sith, a Jedi is of somewhat a weaker mind IMO, so it would be possible for a Sith the cloak his existance, and with Palps being a very powerful Sith, he is able to stay hidden right under their noses.


Third, up to now anyway, we haven't seen or heard Palpatine do or say anything that smacks of Force ability until ROTJ. In ESB, he never says that he sensed young Skywalker, only that he knew that Luke was out there. That information easily could have come from spies and such. The very first indication of actual Force usage comes at the very end of ROTJ when Palps removes Luke's handcuffs. The rest is all talk about how he "forsees" the future, all which come off as "boasting" to Vader in order to keep the chain of command clear.

I actually agree with you on this, which goes back to what I was saying about how I wish Lucas had saved the power of Palpatine until ROTJ.


PS. Oh, I forgot one other thing. In ANH, Tarkin tells Vader that "you my friend are the last of their religion." Amongst other problems with that statement caused by sloppiness in the Prequels, one would think that Tarkin, being the head guy in charge of the Universe's biggest tank, would be quite aware that Palpatine was also a "Jedi" or whatever he saw Vader as. So for him to proclaim that Vader is the last of them tells us quite clearly that either he doesn't know that Palps is a Force-user or that Palpatine isn't a Force user yet. It's really that simple.

Who said anyone, but Vader, in the Empire knows that Palps is a Sith? Maybe, when he proclaims himself Emperor, probably because he tells the Senate that democracy has failed because it has allowed the Jedi to manipulate the Republic to wage a war with Dooku, he never lets on that he is a Sith and since he got them as far as he had, that they should trust him to make all the decisions and the dummy senators agree with him.

stillakid
03-16-2005, 11:34 PM
Cool! I stirred up the beehive. :D

Uh, where to start. How 'bout with my assertion that taking over a government sans magical powers has more dramatic flavor than the alternative. It still holds in my opinion. Any genie, God, or otherwise supernatural being could take over the universe if he wanted and the populace couldn't be blamed for it. Afterall, mere mortals have no power to stop the sorcerer. The rules change and everybody is f'd. However, if the oppressor is just "one of us," a mere mortal with nothing but evil intentions and the perserverence to go with it, the (inevitable) coup is suddenly all the more horrible as it only occurs because the populace allows it to happen. With a magician at the helm, they have no choice but to submit to his power. This is one reason why the wiser portions of humanity push to study a guy like Hitler in humanistic terms. To just consider him an "animal" or otherwise "unhuman" diminishes the responsibility of those who followed him and his wishes. He WAS human therefore the situation is even more tragic. This is why leaving Palpatine as a non-Force user is a far stronger way to go.


What's next? Hmm, let's see...

Oh yeah, Mr. Jabba John brings up a good point. Palpatine says something to the effect of: "There is a great disturbance in the Force," and later, "The Force is strong with him." John thinks that we need to take this statement of Palps at his word. I choose not to however. Why? Because it makes more sense. Palps is a liar plain and simple. Listen to just about every exchange he has with Vader in ROTJ. Everytime Vader illustrates his own power or connection with Luke, Palps jumps in with some bullsh** about how he could "foresee" this or "foresee" that. His delivery and intent is obvious. He KNOWS that Vader could kick his arse but he needs to maintain control over his minion. By dropping a few "I have foreseen it"s into the conversation, he keeps Vader at bay by making that dumb bipolar sh** think that Palps has a better grasp over the Force. So back to the ESB conversation. Palps claims that he felt a disturbance in the Force, but in reality, I think that what should be happening is that Palps finds out that the son of Skywalker is the putz that blew up his ball o' fun. Lots o' Midichlorians equals lots o' Midichlorians. In other words, Vader was strong with the Force therefore Luke must be too. Big surprise. It didn't take a Force user to figure this out, just a few spies and a politician trying to maintain control over his main muscle.

I can hear it now, stillakid is pulling crap out of thin air that isn't really there. Maybe, but the pieces fit far better thematically and in terms of overall continuity than if Palps IS a Force user throughout.


And as to this business about the Darkside masking technique being silly. Yeah it is. And it is apples and oranges compared to Ben using the Force against the "weak minded." In that instance, Ben is firing energy bolts at one guy 4 feet away. What this Darkside nonsense is suggesting is that somehow Palpatine is constantly and without interruption, manipulating the energy field (the Force) in such a way that none of the 5000+ Jedi out there can possibly sense him doing his evil work. C'mon. :rolleyes: What a crock o' ****. This is one reason I don't get too much into fantasty crap like Lord of the Rings and the like. There are limits to what sorcery can do. Star Wars set up a lot of cool powers, true, but it also has limitations and for us to suddenly accept that the Sith someone can manipulate the minds of over 5000 Jedi for an indefinite period of time stretches the limits of my suspension of disbelief.


Tarkin. He had to have known about Palpatine, plain and simple. It is illogical to think that he would have no idea that Palpatine was an evil Sith. And the statement from him was indeed that he believed Vader was the last of that ancient religion.


But ROTS will blow this whole idea out of the water when we see Palps throw down with Mace and his band o' merry men. Just one more nick in the armor that was Star Wars. :(

2-1B
03-17-2005, 01:24 AM
Why did Tarkin have to know about the Emperor ? I don't see how it's plain and simple.

*********Episode 3 Spoilers*************
I just double checked and we're in the OT section here.

Palpatine is a politician to most of the people in the galaxy and if he reveals his Sith-self to a few Jedi, well what does that matter since anybody who sees him for his true self is likely going to be silenced by death in the first place ? ;)

So Palpatine might use some Dark Side stuff in the final prequel but as he puts on an outward showcase of Palpatine the Politician, there's no reason to say with certainty that Tarkin has to know about it.

If anything, the statement he made about Vader being the last is proof the other way that he will not be witness to any of Palpatine's magical workings in the prequels.

:)

Von-El
03-17-2005, 01:58 AM
I disagree that we should have to wait until ROTJ to learn that Palpatine is a Sith Lord in all his darkside glory as a force-wielder.

The prequel trilogies are about the Jedi, Old Republic, Padme, Anakin's joing the Jedi Order to becoming a Sith Lord, Obi-Wan's younger years, and Palpatine's rise to political power.

In TPM and AOTC, Palpatine was in the role of a politician. Senator and Supreme Chancellor, not revealed as Darth Sidious.

Let's keep in mind that the prequel trilogies were made nearly 20 years after the original so we know who is who and what may happen.

It isn't until ROTS that the Jedi learn that Palpatine is the elusive Sith Lord Darth Sidious they have been after.

The Jedi foolishly believed the Sith were extinct for over a millenium and Yoda knew the rule of two since he's been around for almost that amount of time.

ROTS will parallel ROTJ in that we see Palpatine showing his darkside powers. In TPM and AOTC, he's a politician. In ROTS he's a politician and Sith Lord. He has his minions doing his dirty work in the first two prequels and even in the ROTS. During the OT, the Emperor is behind the scenes, has Darth Vader, the Imperial Dignitaries, and Governors doing his dirty work, and doesn't make his official appearance until ROTJ in which he says loudly on board the Death Star that he and Darth Vader, together, can turn Luke to the Darkside--thus revealing he too is a Sith for others to hear. Other parallels is how Palpatine will reveal how he manipulated events to his liking in ROTS as he did in ROTJ. Anakin was not strong enough to fight off the seduction of the darkside as Luke was, because Luke had Yoda and Obi-Wan to train him in the ways of the Jedi and tell him of what happened to his father Anakin.

When confronted, after being exposed, he has to cover his @$$ and fight back because he knows that he stands to lose everything. When fighting back he covers himself by villifying the Jedi as enemies of the Republic.

Some of the politicians in the Republic have grown to distrust and dislike Palpatine because he has grown very powerful, politically. The Jedi are the only ones to learn he is a Sith Lord.

For Palpatine to reveal that he is a trained force-wielder, he would be setting himself up for a fall, because it may be assumed he is an evil Jedi himself. He does have people in the Empire who dislike him and find the Empire to be tyrannical. There are spies there, but what can they do if they don't have the force on their side because they are not force wielders?

If the Sith are believed to have been extinct for over a millenium, do those denizens of the galaxy during the Old Republic and Empire days during both trilogies even know what a Sith Lord is?

The Jedi have been the role models for good.

Palpatine has the appearance of a feeble old man but he certainly isn't so.

Darth Vader is his most loyal and trusting servant, serving as the hand, voice, and face of the Emperor. He will kill anyone for going after his master. Vader is said to be the last of the force-wielders, but unlike Palpatine, he generates fear with his tall imposing appearance, wearing the black armor, black mask, unusual breathing, and strong yet stern voice. It is known that Vader has been made the exception of force-wielders and shown to be the Emperor's most trusted in the Empire.

Yoda knew in ROTJ that the Emperor was powerful as he warned Luke not to underestimate him. Therefore, Yoda had to have confronted the man to know this as well as having been around to see it.

stillakid
03-17-2005, 10:51 AM
Why did Tarkin have to know about the Emperor ? I don't see how it's plain and simple.

*********Episode 3 Spoilers*************
I just double checked and we're in the OT section here.

Palpatine is a politician to most of the people in the galaxy and if he reveals his Sith-self to a few Jedi, well what does that matter since anybody who sees him for his true self is likely going to be silenced by death in the first place ? ;)

So Palpatine might use some Dark Side stuff in the final prequel but as he puts on an outward showcase of Palpatine the Politician, there's no reason to say with certainty that Tarkin has to know about it.

If anything, the statement he made about Vader being the last is proof the other way that he will not be witness to any of Palpatine's magical workings in the prequels.

:)

That is one way to look at it for sure. However we are supposed to believe that the one guy chosen to pilot the ball 'o death (Tarkin) has no idea that Palpatine is/was a Jedi-type? C'mon, the guy walks around in a death shroud and looks like Edward James Olmos on a good day. Vader jumps to attention whenever the Emperor calls his name. 2+2 says that if Vader, being the "I'll choke you over the silliest thing" kind of guy he is cowers with the mention of the Emperor, it is then logical to assume that Tarkin is well aware the Palpatine has to also be of Vader's ilk. Soooo, immediately one should sit up and say, "Ahah! That's proof that Palps IS a Force user," except that you'd be ignoring Palpatine's pentient for lying. Which goes back to my original assertion that he is such a good politician that he doesn't have to use the Force to get what he wants. He uses the apathy of the Republic to his advantage. And need I bring up the PROLOGUE in the ANH novelization which pretty clearly suggests that this is exactly how Palpatine managed to take over. It had NOTHING to do with him using sorcery to get his way and everything to do with him capitalizing on a weak and apathetic population. It was a political statement by Lucas (and Foster, the ghostwriter) which emerged from a tumultuous 1960s atmosphere warning us (the audience) to be on guard from the political machine.

While it might be "cool" to see Palpatine throw down like Yoda on a hotplate, it makes very little sense in terms of the saga as a whole, both in terms of continuity and thematically.

And one more thing that I haven't mentioned. Lets assume for a second that Palps IS a Force user for a long time. Wouldn't one think that he could have easily fought Vader off at the end of ROTJ? See, my point here is that if Palps is a relatively new Force user by the time ROTJ rolls around, then it makes complete sense that he has very little real control over the power. He learned how to shoot lightning, but because he has little practice with this awesome power, it gets away from him pretty quickly. So while he's wrapped up in his own project trying to kill off Luke, Vader grabs him from behind unexpectedly. An experienced Force user would have been able to figure out what's going on and deal with it. But Palps lost control and was helpless. Experience would have saved him. But he didn't have any, so he was killed.

All the pieces fit here. A lot of it IS circumstantial, but there is so much pointing to just one conclusion that it's hard to deny...unless one really doesn't want to see it that way. And like I said before, ROTS looks like it will show Palps using the Force is some manner which casts problems over the rest of the saga. But that wouldn't be anything new for the Prequels then would it?

Imperial Monarche
03-17-2005, 10:58 AM
Cool! I stirred up the beehive. :D

Uh, where to start. How 'bout with my assertion that taking over a government sans magical powers has more dramatic flavor than the alternative. It still holds in my opinion. Any genie, God, or otherwise supernatural being could take over the universe if he wanted and the populace couldn't be blamed for it. Afterall, mere mortals have no power to stop the sorcerer. The rules change and everybody is f'd. However, if the oppressor is just "one of us," a mere mortal with nothing but evil intentions and the perserverence to go with it, the (inevitable) coup is suddenly all the more horrible as it only occurs because the populace allows it to happen. With a magician at the helm, they have no choice but to submit to his power. This is one reason why the wiser portions of humanity push to study a guy like Hitler in humanistic terms. To just consider him an "animal" or otherwise "unhuman" diminishes the responsibility of those who followed him and his wishes. He WAS human therefore the situation is even more tragic. This is why leaving Palpatine as a non-Force user is a far stronger way to go.


What's next? Hmm, let's see...

Oh yeah, Mr. Jabba John brings up a good point. Palpatine says something to the effect of: "There is a great disturbance in the Force," and later, "The Force is strong with him." John thinks that we need to take this statement of Palps at his word. I choose not to however. Why? Because it makes more sense. Palps is a liar plain and simple. Listen to just about every exchange he has with Vader in ROTJ. Everytime Vader illustrates his own power or connection with Luke, Palps jumps in with some bullsh** about how he could "foresee" this or "foresee" that. His delivery and intent is obvious. He KNOWS that Vader could kick his arse but he needs to maintain control over his minion. By dropping a few "I have foreseen it"s into the conversation, he keeps Vader at bay by making that dumb bipolar sh** think that Palps has a better grasp over the Force. So back to the ESB conversation. Palps claims that he felt a disturbance in the Force, but in reality, I think that what should be happening is that Palps finds out that the son of Skywalker is the putz that blew up his ball o' fun. Lots o' Midichlorians equals lots o' Midichlorians. In other words, Vader was strong with the Force therefore Luke must be too. Big surprise. It didn't take a Force user to figure this out, just a few spies and a politician trying to maintain control over his main muscle.

I can hear it now, stillakid is pulling crap out of thin air that isn't really there. Maybe, but the pieces fit far better thematically and in terms of overall continuity than if Palps IS a Force user throughout.


And as to this business about the Darkside masking technique being silly. Yeah it is. And it is apples and oranges compared to Ben using the Force against the "weak minded." In that instance, Ben is firing energy bolts at one guy 4 feet away. What this Darkside nonsense is suggesting is that somehow Palpatine is constantly and without interruption, manipulating the energy field (the Force) in such a way that none of the 5000+ Jedi out there can possibly sense him doing his evil work. C'mon. :rolleyes: What a crock o' ****. This is one reason I don't get too much into fantasty crap like Lord of the Rings and the like. There are limits to what sorcery can do. Star Wars set up a lot of cool powers, true, but it also has limitations and for us to suddenly accept that the Sith someone can manipulate the minds of over 5000 Jedi for an indefinite period of time stretches the limits of my suspension of disbelief.


Tarkin. He had to have known about Palpatine, plain and simple. It is illogical to think that he would have no idea that Palpatine was an evil Sith. And the statement from him was indeed that he believed Vader was the last of that ancient religion.


But ROTS will blow this whole idea out of the water when we see Palps throw down with Mace and his band o' merry men. Just one more nick in the armor that was Star Wars. :(

You know what, you just got through saying that Palps being a Sith completely destroys the thematic element of his takeover of the Republic because he is a sorceror and common people have no choice but to bow to him. If he were a regular guy, plus evil intentions, it would be more powerful his takeover. Then, you claim that it's ROTS that sets this up. But wait, the Sith Palps was a concept set up in ROTJ. For once, you can't claim the PT messed that part of SW up.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-17-2005, 11:22 AM
Oh yeah, Mr. Jabba John brings up a good point. Palpatine says something to the effect of: "There is a great disturbance in the Force," and later, "The Force is strong with him." John thinks that we need to take this statement of Palps at his word. I choose not to however. Why? Because it makes more sense. Palps is a liar plain and simple. Listen to just about every exchange he has with Vader in ROTJ. Everytime Vader illustrates his own power or connection with Luke, Palps jumps in with some bullsh** about how he could "foresee" this or "foresee" that. His delivery and intent is obvious. He KNOWS that Vader could kick his arse but he needs to maintain control over his minion. By dropping a few "I have foreseen it"s into the conversation, he keeps Vader at bay by making that dumb bipolar sh** think that Palps has a better grasp over the Force. So back to the ESB conversation. Palps claims that he felt a disturbance in the Force, but in reality, I think that what should be happening is that Palps finds out that the son of Skywalker is the putz that blew up his ball o' fun. Lots o' Midichlorians equals lots o' Midichlorians. In other words, Vader was strong with the Force therefore Luke must be too. Big surprise. It didn't take a Force user to figure this out, just a few spies and a politician trying to maintain control over his main muscle.

I can hear it now, stillakid is pulling crap out of thin air that isn't really there. Maybe, but the pieces fit far better thematically and in terms of overall continuity than if Palps IS a Force user throughout.
That was some of the most bizarre, most clearly wrong crap I've ever seen on this site!

If Palpatine WASN'T a Force-user, why would he even front to Vader and pretend to be one? The scene doesn't go:

PALPATINE: There is a great disturbance in the Force.
VADER: Shut up! How would you even know? I'm the only Force-user around here!

You can say that you dislike the idea of the Emperor being a Sith, that's fine. But you can't just outright say that he wasn't a Sith all along. That idea's been in place since 1980!

If you think that the prequels introduce the Emperor as being a Sith, then you're wrong. It's okay to admit you're wrong. It takes more strength to do so than to keep trying to convince others that you're right when it's clearly obvious that you're wrong.


Tarkin. He had to have known about Palpatine, plain and simple. It is illogical to think that he would have no idea that Palpatine was an evil Sith. And the statement from him was indeed that he believed Vader was the last of that ancient religion.
I really don't know if Lucas had yet worked out the character of the Emperor when ANH was out. Hell, I don't even know if he planned for Vader to be Luke's father! (I'm going to say he did the latter, though.) In ANH, Palpatine was nothing more than a few lines of dialogue. But by ESB, he was clearly introduced as Vader's master, a seriously creepy dude who could use the Force.

Say what you will, but having Palpatine being a Sith in the prequels isn't wrong.

Even if he wasn't a Sith in TPM and AOTC, how would they put it into ROTS? "I declare myself the Emperor! I think I'll slowly learn the powers of the dark side, doesn't that sound like a good idea? And I won't use them for twenty years. Who wants to teach me?" :D

stillakid
03-17-2005, 11:37 AM
That was some of the most bizarre, most clearly wrong crap I've ever seen on this site!

If Palpatine WASN'T a Force-user, why would he even front to Vader and pretend to be one? The scene doesn't go:

PALPATINE: There is a great disturbance in the Force.
VADER: Shut up! How would you even know? I'm the only Force-user around here!

Why would he front to Vader? Same reason he fronts to everyone else, to remain in power. You're hypothetical above assumes that Vader knows, but from ROTJ dialogue, we know that Vader doesn't and also assumes the Palps in a Force user. All Palps ever does is claim to foresee the future and sense disturbances in the Force. Pull out your copy of ROTJ and listen carefully to the context in which Palps claims to foresee things. It's always in response to Vader "showing him up" in the Force dept or in regard to Luke. Palps knows that Vader may be thinking about pulling a coup with Luke at his side, so he need to, as you say, "front" to Vader about how he can do stuff that Vader can't, like foresee the future. Vader is a patsy and falls for it: "He will come to me?" Palps has Vader right where he needs him. It all fits.



You can say that you dislike the idea of the Emperor being a Sith, that's fine. But you can't just outright say that he wasn't a Sith all along. That idea's been in place since 1980!
No it hasn't. In fact, the word "Sith" wasn't mentioned on screen until the Prequels. All that was established in 1980 was that Palps claimed to sense a disturbance in the Force. Again, the information he had about Luke easily came from spies. It didn't take Force use to figure out that if Vader had a child, it would probably be as powerful as Vader was. And if Vader had any doubts about Palpatine's power, Vader would most likely take Luke for himself and overthrow Palpatine. That's why Palps feels the need to put on this show. Eventually, he needs to learn something about the Force just in case he has to fight off Vader and Luke. His limited abilities wind up killing him.


If you think that the prequels introduce the Emperor as being a Sith, then you're wrong. It's okay to admit you're wrong. It takes more strength to do so than to keep trying to convince others that you're right when it's clearly obvious that you're wrong.
But I'm not wrong. Try taking a page from your own book instead of trying to rationalize away problems within the saga.



I really don't know if Lucas had yet worked out the character of the Emperor when ANH was out. Hell, I don't even know if he planned for Vader to be Luke's father! (I'm going to say he did the latter, though.) In ANH, Palpatine was nothing more than a few lines of dialogue. But by ESB, he was clearly introduced as Vader's master, a seriously creepy dude who could use the Force.
No, he was just introduced as a seriously creepy dude who claimed he could use the Force. There is no proof to suggest that he actually could and much more proof throughout the saga that he couldn't.



Say what you will, but having Palpatine being a Sith in the prequels isn't wrong.
Yeah, it is.


Even if he wasn't a Sith in TPM and AOTC, how would they put it into ROTS? "I declare myself the Emperor! I think I'll slowly learn the powers of the dark side, doesn't that sound like a good idea? And I won't use them for twenty years. Who wants to teach me?" :D
:confused: Please elaborate.

stillakid
03-17-2005, 11:40 AM
You know what, you just got through saying that Palps being a Sith completely destroys the thematic element of his takeover of the Republic because he is a sorceror and common people have no choice but to bow to him. If he were a regular guy, plus evil intentions, it would be more powerful his takeover. Then, you claim that it's ROTS that sets this up. But wait, the Sith Palps was a concept set up in ROTJ. For once, you can't claim the PT messed that part of SW up.

Um, Sort of. If I understand your paragraph correctly, you misunderstood what I'm saying about ROTS. The point about ROTS is that by showing Palps as a Force user, it undermines every other point of continuity that has been established about his ability. Which, in the end, is just another in a line of continuity problems that the Prequels inject into the saga. The OT and the earlier Prequels suggest that Palpatine isn't a Force user, but by showing Palps using the Force in ROTS it calls into question just about everything else we've seen in the other 5 episodes.

Kidhuman
03-17-2005, 11:42 AM
He does use "Force Lightning"??????/

JEDIpartner
03-17-2005, 12:29 PM
I go with the "revealed to be a Force-user (Sith) in ESB" contingent. It is implied that he is a Force user... clearly implied.

CaptainSolo1138
03-17-2005, 01:00 PM
He does use "Force Lightning"??????/
I guess that's just too obvious for anyone to notice. You don't have to wax philosophical from that POV.

Rocketboy
03-17-2005, 02:40 PM
I guess this mean that Vader may not be a Sith either, huh?
Like the Emperor, the OT never says that Vader's a Sith.
It was only in the various printed materials where Vader is called The Dark Lord of the Sith.
There is only proof that Vader is a Force user.

Von-El
03-17-2005, 03:00 PM
The point about ROTS is that by showing Palps as a Force user, it undermines every other point of continuity that has been established about his ability. Which, in the end, is just another in a line of continuity problems that the Prequels inject into the saga. The OT and the earlier Prequels suggest that Palpatine isn't a Force user, but by showing Palps using the Force in ROTS it calls into question just about everything else we've seen in the other 5 episodes.

Stillakid, what you've written in your above posts are the biggest loads of crap I've ever read.

The point of the prequels is to show:

-how the Old Republic became the Empire under Palpatine's machinations
-how Anakin Skywalker went from Jedi to Sith Lord by Palpatine's work
-Obi-Wan and Yoda's younger years
-Padme Amidala Naberrie, her romance with Anakin, which led to the birth of
Luke & Leia
-the parallels with the original trilogy in how Luke fought the seduction of the Darkside when Anakin could not
-the glory days of the Jedi
-how the Rebellion was formed

Now if Palpatine wasn't so strong in the Force and Darth Vader knew this, he would have killed Palpatine along time ago. Vader is still the apprentice and not yet the master. He's been coveting the master role.

Palpatine has to be a force-wielder in the prequels to illustrate how politics and the darkside led to his rise to power.

How in the hell do you expect anyone to honestly believe that the prequels undermine ROTJ and Palp's force-lightning abilities?



The thing about the original trilogy and the new trilogy is that each movie introduced us to new characters who may or may not have been mentioned before in a previous movie in a trilogy.

In ROTJ we mostly see Palpatine interacting with Darth Vader and Luke. His scenes with the Imperial Dignitaries and Imperial officers are very brief. Hell, he sends the Royal Guards away when Vader brought Luke before him. Not even they are familiar with his power in the force.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-17-2005, 03:37 PM
Why would he front to Vader? Same reason he fronts to everyone else, to remain in power. You're hypothetical above assumes that Vader knows, but from ROTJ dialogue, we know that Vader doesn't and also assumes the Palps in a Force user. All Palps ever does is claim to foresee the future and sense disturbances in the Force. Pull out your copy of ROTJ and listen carefully to the context in which Palps claims to foresee things. It's always in response to Vader "showing him up" in the Force dept or in regard to Luke. Palps knows that Vader may be thinking about pulling a coup with Luke at his side, so he need to, as you say, "front" to Vader about how he can do stuff that Vader can't, like foresee the future. Vader is a patsy and falls for it: "He will come to me?" Palps has Vader right where he needs him. It all fits.
What? Yeah, Palpatine has Vader where he wants him. As his Sith apprentice. Occasionally, some Jedi can see some things others haven't. Maybe Vader still thought he needed to seek out Luke, and hadn't looked to the future.


No it hasn't. In fact, the word "Sith" wasn't mentioned on screen until the Prequels. All that was established in 1980 was that Palps claimed to sense a disturbance in the Force. Again, the information he had about Luke easily came from spies. It didn't take Force use to figure out that if Vader had a child, it would probably be as powerful as Vader was. And if Vader had any doubts about Palpatine's power, Vader would most likely take Luke for himself and overthrow Palpatine. That's why Palps feels the need to put on this show. Eventually, he needs to learn something about the Force just in case he has to fight off Vader and Luke. His limited abilities wind up killing him.
Even though the word "Sith" wasn't mentioned until TPM, it was still clear that Palpatine was a dark Jedi. It just so happens, that in the prequels they call the dark Jedi, Sith. The EU notwithstanding.


No, he was just introduced as a seriously creepy dude who claimed he could use the Force. There is no proof to suggest that he actually could and much more proof throughout the saga that he couldn't.
Don't you think it would've been figured out that he wasn't able to use the Force? If he couldn't use the Force, he would just be a crusty old dude who somehow took over as Emperor. Somebody (ahem, Vader) would've killed him and took his place.


:confused: Please elaborate.
It wouldn't make sense for viewers to see an old politician who couldn't use the Force all of a sudden, twenty years later, shoot lightning from his fingers and talk of using the Force. Who would teach him? When would he learn? Certainly he wouldn't get a Jedi to do it, as Yoda or Obi-Wan would kill him.

The more you make your case, it seems that you believe that Palpatine not only wasn't a Sith during the prequels, but he wasn't at ALL during the OT. It wouldn't be hard to talk about using the Force, but I know I sure as hell can't shoot lightning from my fingers.

chewie
03-17-2005, 06:10 PM
I don't see why having Palpatine being a lifelong force user undermines the story. Sure a sorcerer rules over the regular mortals in the story, but he had to sneak past thousands of other sorcerers to get there. In the Star Wars universe regular mortals were never fully in control of their lives as they always had some type of sorcerer presence in the background to police them. As Obi-Wan said "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." It wasn't the duty of mere mortals to protect the Republic, it was the Jedi and it was stated as such right in the beginning of the movie that started the series.

JediTricks
03-17-2005, 07:54 PM
Um, that resembles me. :DNo no, I protest. :p ;) You're not the only one though, I remember folks saying stuff like "just because they're played by the same actor in TPM and AOTC doesn't mean they're the same character" during the first 2 prequels' discussions.


I don't think Palpatine really should be a Force user until well into ROTJ for several reasons (which I've stated previously). The first is that there is no need for him to be. As pointed out, Palps has other people doing his dirty work for him constantly. He's the brains, they're the brawn. Period. He doesn't have to so he isn't. An adjunct to this is that it makes for a stronger thematic story to show that political unheaval is possible without magic and sorcery. Palpatine's cunning against an apathetic population is all that is necessary. Ok, but that's only how YOU'D do it which doesn't make it evidence that he ISN'T (which is the practicality of the matter), only that you think he shouldn't be (which is your academic take on the matter). In ESB and ROTJ we already see evidence that he's a Force-user several times over, it already IS and only Lucas can change it now.


Second is that during the time leading up to TPM and throughout AOTC, had he been using Force powers, he would have inadvertently "disturbed" the energy field surrounding all living things (the Force) and alerted the Jedi to his presence. We KNOW from ANH that a Jedi can send off little ripples just be standing around, so it only sticks to continuity that if Palps was also a Force user, the Jedi would definitely have sensed him numerous times by now.
This silliness about the Dark Side being able to "mask" his presence is a pretty ridiculous band-aid to cover up a massive problem like this. Except that Darth Maul isn't detected either time he's on the scene in TPM either so that theory doesn't hold up. The OT doesn't explain why Vader can sense Obi-Wan but not Luke or Leia, or why Luke can't sense Vader's whereabouts on Cloud City, or why Vader can't sense Yoda's presence ever, you are describing this set rule as something we "KNOW" when it's not, it's something we're given hints to but is not fully explained.


Third, up to now anyway, we haven't seen or heard Palpatine do or say anything that smacks of Force ability until ROTJ. In ESB, he never says that he sensed young Skywalker, only that he knew that Luke was out there. That information easily could have come from spies and such. The very first indication of actual Force usage comes at the very end of ROTJ when Palps removes Luke's handcuffs. The rest is all talk about how he "forsees" the future, all which come off as "boasting" to Vader in order to keep the chain of command clear. You're right, in ESB he never said "I sense a great disturbance in the Force"... oh wait. ;)


So, yes, it appears that now with ROTS Lucas is introducing a massive continuity problem which didn't have to exist. Now we HAVE to use that nonsensical bit about the Darkside masking or hiding Palp's presence. And we lose that (timely) political message about simple apathy in the population causing a subversive coup. No, it's only a continuity issue to YOU because you're playing by your own personal EU continuity - that's absolutely fine for you, but you're now asking us to play by it as well and that's a different matter.


PS. Oh, I forgot one other thing. In ANH, Tarkin tells Vader that "you my friend are the last of their religion." Amongst other problems with that statement caused by sloppiness in the Prequels, one would think that Tarkin, being the head guy in charge of the Universe's biggest tank, would be quite aware that Palpatine was also a "Jedi" or whatever he saw Vader as. So for him to proclaim that Vader is the last of them tells us quite clearly that either he doesn't know that Palps is a Force-user or that Palpatine isn't a Force user yet. It's really that simple.So lemme get this straight, you'll take Tarkin's word - even though he's not a Force user and probably like all other non-Force-users in the galaxy wouldn't know that Palpatine is a Sith because Palpatine has worked hard to conceal his identity - over Palpatine's own words and deeds in ESB and ROTJ, as well as what both Yoda *and* Ben tell Luke about the Emperor?!?


John thinks that we need to take this statement of Palps at his word. I choose not to however. Why? Because it makes more sense. Palps is a liar plain and simple.... Palps claims that he felt a disturbance in the Force, but in reality, I think that what should be happening is that Palps finds out that the son of Skywalker is the putz that blew up his ball o' fun. Oh... kay. So after 3 years, only now does Palpatine decide to call Vader up and lay on the BS about the Son of Skywalker the very same day that Luke actually does take his first lesson with Yoda? Wow, hot damn that's some coincidence there! I especially love how in your vision of how things should be Vader is now an idiot who can't sense when he's being lied to by only ONE regular guy even though he already has with countless other regular guys.


It didn't take a Force user to figure this out, just a few spies and a politician trying to maintain control over his main muscle. Ah yes, the multitude of Imperial spies on DAGOBAH. Come on.


Tarkin. He had to have known about Palpatine, plain and simple. It is illogical to think that he would have no idea that Palpatine was an evil Sith. And the statement from him was indeed that he believed Vader was the last of that ancient religion. How do you figure that Tarkin HAD to know? Where is the logic there? I read your response, you have no idea what the relationship between Tarkin and Palpatine is, yet to back up your threadbare argument you just proclaimed it must be so good that the guy using the Force to hide his identity would simply give up that secret to a solitary high-ranking military officer for no apparent reason.


And one more thing that I haven't mentioned. Lets assume for a second that Palps IS a Force user for a long time. Wouldn't one think that he could have easily fought Vader off at the end of ROTJ? The Emperor is so focused on destroying Luke that he's caught off-guard by Vader's treachery.


See, my point here is that if Palps is a relatively new Force user by the time ROTJ rolls around, then it makes complete sense that he has very little real control over the power. He learned how to shoot lightning, but because he has little practice with this awesome power, it gets away from him pretty quickly. Then I guess Vader is a relatively-new Force user in ESB because Luke has a couple tricks which catch Vader off-guard which under proper circumstances could have killed the Sith Lord - Luke jumping out of the carbon chamber, a weaponless Luke blasting Vader in the face with a hose full of gas, and a battered Luke diving out of the way of Vader's devistating attack to return with a solid hit on Vader's shoulder (an inch higher and Vader would have been decapitated).


So while he's wrapped up in his own project trying to kill off Luke, Vader grabs him from behind unexpectedly. An experienced Force user would have been able to figure out what's going on and deal with it. But Palps lost control and was helpless. Experience would have saved him. But he didn't have any, so he was killed. How do you know what an experienced Force user could do in the face of an unexpected attack, especially from ANOTHER Force user? Once again, you're expecting the rest of us to accept your argument based on only your own personal belief of how things "should be".

darthvyn
03-17-2005, 08:46 PM
best... post... ever.

Imperial Monarche
03-17-2005, 08:52 PM
Um, Sort of. If I understand your paragraph correctly, you misunderstood what I'm saying about ROTS. The point about ROTS is that by showing Palps as a Force user, it undermines every other point of continuity that has been established about his ability. Which, in the end, is just another in a line of continuity problems that the Prequels inject into the saga. The OT and the earlier Prequels suggest that Palpatine isn't a Force user, but by showing Palps using the Force in ROTS it calls into question just about everything else we've seen in the other 5 episodes.

Depends on how you look at it. If you look at it as Palps "the politician", yeah, it does suggest this. If you look at it as Palps "the Sith master" (which, he is the same person revealed in ROTS), then we know where it's heading. Now, this is one of the things in the PT that I believe Lucas has hit out of the ballpark, separating the two characters on screen, even though they are both the same person. True, the PT does suggest that Palps is not a Force-user up to this point, and I believe in a few posts before, I have agreed with you that we should not see, on screen, Palps using the Force in ROTS (no matter how cool a scene it will be). This should be saved until ROTJ hands down.

But, I don't see how showing Palps using the Force in ROTS being a continuity problem, but more like a let down. Where you say that in the OT, it highlights the Emperor as a non-Force user, when I think it does just the opposite. It just depends on how you wanna watch it. Where you say that he is constantly bullying Vader into thinking that he is all powerful so he best not try to overstep him as a ploy to hide that he really doesn't have powers, I see that as he does have great powers and it only makes sense for him to have great powers. I do believe his powers are not as great as Vader's, so that's where the politician Palps comes in, to manipulate Vader into thinking he is Palps infedel, when it's completely the opposite.

Beast
03-17-2005, 09:58 PM
Thank you JT. You said pretty much everything that needed to be said. :)
I won't add anything more, because they would be considered spoilers for ROTS.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

LTBasker
03-17-2005, 10:30 PM
No no, I protest. :p ;) You're not the only one though, I remember folks saying stuff like "just because they're played by the same actor in TPM and AOTC doesn't mean they're the same character" during the first 2 prequels' discussions.

Um..erm...heh. I think I said that. :eek: Except it's out of context if it is my quote. I was talking about Sidious and Palpatine and wether or not they were the same person, but that's a different discussion entirely. Anybody who doesn't think Palpatine was a force-user should rewatch the trilogy. :crazed:

Kidhuman
03-17-2005, 10:34 PM
Palpy is a false force user.

stillakid
03-18-2005, 12:03 AM
My my. I sure know how to get the blood boiling 'round here, eh? ;)




He does use "Force Lightning"??????/
Yes, but not until after he starts actually learning how to use the Force in ROTJ. Had he been a Force user prior, specifically prior to ANH, the Jedi most certainly would have felt his presence and rooted him out long before AOTC or TPM.



Stillakid, what you've written in your above posts are the biggest loads of crap I've ever read.
Really? You don't read much. ;) Try watching FOX NEWS for some better loads of crap. :D But after reading your rebuttal, I think that you've misread some of it. I'll try to clarify for you.


Now if Palpatine wasn't so strong in the Force and Darth Vader knew this, he would have killed Palpatine along time ago. Vader is still the apprentice and not yet the master. He's been coveting the master role.Right, which is why Vader doesn't know that Palps is just fronting. Vader (Anakin) is just a patsy. Palps was the one stroking his ego all along. The last thing he's going to do is question Palpatine's power. All Palps has to do is toss out the occasional "I foresee this" and Vader bends over and takes it.

To your second point, we don't get the sense the Vader covets the Master role until sometime late in ESB after he puts some thought into the Luke situation. We really get the sense of it on the gantry on Endor. But prior to Luke, Vader presumably was content with being the right-hand man.



Palpatine has to be a force-wielder in the prequels to illustrate how politics and the darkside led to his rise to power. .
Why? You make the statement without explaining why. Part of my point is that the story is STRONGER if Palps is NOT a Force user during the coup. It shows that apathy amongst a population can open the door for corruption. Methinks that Lucas, being a product of the Nixon era, would have intentionally put this theme into his saga. As stated, the Prologue to the novelization states this idea quite clearly. But to suggest the Palps is a Force user undermines this notion and now all the story says is that a magician is taking over the universe and there really is nothing anyone could have done to stop it anyway. A GOOD story should be relevant to the audience watching it. Watching an apathetic population get subjugated by an opportunist is something we can all relate to even today. Watching a sorcerer take over a government is only relevant to geeky D&D gamers.


How in the hell do you expect anyone to honestly believe that the prequels undermine ROTJ and Palp's force-lightning abilities?. Your query here tells me that you weren't reading very carefully which explains your confusion. I never suggested what you state. Palps Force lightning abilities don't come until the end of the saga, after he has no need to hide anymore. The Prequels wouldn't directly undermine that in the way you put it above.



Don't you think it would've been figured out that he wasn't able to use the Force? If he couldn't use the Force, he would just be a crusty old dude who somehow took over as Emperor. Somebody (ahem, Vader) would've killed him and took his place.
Maybe, maybe not. Palpatine was an excellent liar/politician. He got where he was because he was a master manipulator. No magic required. So if he managed to snow Vader long enough, and he did, Vader wouldn't have thought he had the opportunity. But that's all beside the point really, because Vader didn't seriously start thinking about taking over until mid-ESB. Palpatine recognized the possibility immediately which is why he called Vader on the phone during the asteroid sequence. He needed to make sure Vader remembered which side he was on. So once Vader put serious thought into the possibility of a coup, Palpatine redoubled his efforts at maintaining control by claiming to have foreseen the future. I also maintain that he also put some time into learning how to toss some lightning around. But because he was just a learner, he couldn't control it therefore when Vader took him by surprise, Palps was a goner. A MASTER would have foreseen Vader doing that and would have survived. That's not what happened.



It wouldn't make sense for viewers to see an old politician who couldn't use the Force all of a sudden, twenty years later, shoot lightning from his fingers and talk of using the Force. Who would teach him? When would he learn? Certainly he wouldn't get a Jedi to do it, as Yoda or Obi-Wan would kill him.

You're assuming that everybody needs a teacher. Look back at ANH. All Ben ever really told Luke was "stretch out with your feelings," "let go." Pretty simple stuff. Even Yoda was pretty nebulous with his lessons. But assuming that Palps was chock full o' Midichlorians too, it wouldn't have taken much to learn how to levitate fruit and fire some lightning bolts from his fingers. Dooku did it and he wasn't all that much to look at.


The more you make your case, it seems that you believe that Palpatine not only wasn't a Sith during the prequels, but he wasn't at ALL during the OT. It wouldn't be hard to talk about using the Force, but I know I sure as hell can't shoot lightning from my fingers.
Right, that's mostly it. The overall point here is that Palpatine had no need to be a Force user throughout the Prequels. And in fact, it would have been a detriment because it would have given him away. Every use of the Force throws out ripples into the energy field. So Palpatine had Maul and Dooku and later Anakin doing that stuff for him. Only after the takeover was complete could Palpatine reveal himself as an evil guy. But even then, he had no real need to learn the Force until it became apparent that Anakin had fathered a child. NOW Palpatine has something to worry about because if the kid doesn't kill him first, Vader might get those paternal pangs and stage a coup. It's at this point (sometime during the OT) that Palps gets on the ball and learns just enough Force to fire blue lightning from his fingers. He did it only to save himself from Vader and/or Luke. And in the end, it's what does him in. Ironic, isn't it. :)



I don't see why having Palpatine being a lifelong force user undermines the story. Sure a sorcerer rules over the regular mortals in the story, but he had to sneak past thousands of other sorcerers to get there. In the Star Wars universe regular mortals were never fully in control of their lives as they always had some type of sorcerer presence in the background to police them. As Obi-Wan said "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." It wasn't the duty of mere mortals to protect the Republic, it was the Jedi and it was stated as such right in the beginning of the movie that started the series.
Thatís a very interesting point, Chewy. Thanks for making it. :) But as a screenwriting teacher once told me, the audience will always forgive you for coincidences which get your hero into trouble, never for coincidences which get them out. In other words, the Jedi, while being cut from the same cloth as the Sith, arenít entirely relevant to the point at hand, that being that an apathetic population can be taken over easily via political manipulation. But if you did want to include them, part of what the Prequels do do right is that they show that the Jedi are also apathetic. They only rise to action too late. The problem exists with the overall theme of what it takes to take over and oppress a population. Making Palpatine a Force user suggests that it takes more than simple politics to do it. It takes magic to do it. This removes the empathy that the Earth-bound audience might have had for the story and distances the tale so that all we can do is look on in a geek-like stupor at how cool it all is.


Ok, but that's only how YOU'D do it which doesn't make it evidence that he ISN'T (which is the practicality of the matter), only that you think he shouldn't be (which is your academic take on the matter). In ESB and ROTJ we already see evidence that he's a Force-user several times over, it already IS and only Lucas can change it now.
No we donít. We see him use the Force just once, at the end of ROTJ. All the rest is implied and can easily be him just ďfrontingĒ to Vader and others.

As to me just thinking that it ďshouldĒ be this way, yes, but I only arrived at that conclusion based on the evidence that is there. Itís not my place to write or rewrite Lucasís story for him. Iím only looking at whatís there and drawing a logical conclusion based on the evidence, ROTS notwithstanding.


Except that Darth Maul isn't detected either time he's on the scene in TPM either so that theory doesn't hold up. The OT doesn't explain why Vader can sense Obi-Wan but not Luke or Leia, or why Luke can't sense Vader's whereabouts on Cloud City, or why Vader can't sense Yoda's presence ever, you are describing this set rule as something we "KNOW" when it's not, it's something we're given hints to but is not fully explained.
:confused: Maul IS detected. As to Vader sensing Luke and Leia, a Force user can only sense when the Force is being used. The Force user isnít detecting Midichlorian counts. So Vader DOES start sensing Luke, but only when he really starts using the Force during the trench run in ANH. Leia never uses it therefore there is no reason to suspect that he would sense her. Who says Luke didnít sense Vader on Cloud City? I think that the scenes DO show that he does. Maybe not like an exact location, but heís a newbie at it so I wouldnít expect him to be able to pinpoint an exact location.

Yoda. Interesting question there. Again, who says that they didnít sense the gnome? Iíll think more about this problem.


You're right, in ESB he never said "I sense a great disturbance in the Force"... oh wait. ;)
Right, Palps did say that, but he was lying. That information about Luke would have come from spies. Anakin + offspring = threat. No magic necessary to figure that out.



No, it's only a continuity issue to YOU because you're playing by your own personal EU continuity - that's absolutely fine for you, but you're now asking us to play by it as well and that's a different matter.
This isnít EU continuity. Itís onscreen continuity. The only off screen thing Iíve brought up so far was the Prologue to the novelization to Star Wars. And that being a Lucas approved piece of literature, I would think that it was relevant.


So lemme get this straight, you'll take Tarkin's word - even though he's not a Force user and probably like all other non-Force-users in the galaxy wouldn't know that Palpatine is a Sith because Palpatine has worked hard to conceal his identity - over Palpatine's own words and deeds in ESB and ROTJ, as well as what both Yoda *and* Ben tell Luke about the Emperor?!? .
Uh, yeah, I guess. What exactly do Ben and Yoda tell Luke about the Emperor? That heís dangerous? ooooohhhh. Yeah, and? That doesnít say or prove that the Emperor has Force ability.

The point about Tarkin is that he believes (and says) that Vader is the last of the religion. That means that either A) Palpatine IS a Force user and Tarkin doesnít know it or B) that Palpatine ISNíT a Force user and Tarkin knows that. A seems unlikely because Vader is only the right hand man. Being able to crush a throat at 30 paces should trump political savvy any day. B IS more likely because of the reasons expressed in A.



Oh... kay. So after 3 years, only now does Palpatine decide to call Vader up and lay on the BS about the Son of Skywalker the very same day that Luke actually does take his first lesson with Yoda? Wow, hot damn that's some coincidence there! I especially love how in your vision of how things should be Vader is now an idiot who can't sense when he's being lied to by only ONE regular guy even though he already has with countless other regular guys.
:confused: Who exactly did Vader sense lying to him?

As to the timing, letís call it filmic license. We had to get Palpatine into the story sometime for some reason and this was an opportune time to do it, sort of.


Ah yes, the multitude of Imperial spies on DAGOBAH. Come on. To use the vernacular, what the hell are you talking about? :confused: Who ever suggested there were spies on Dagobah? And for what reason? Go back and reread what I wrote. Honestly, I think that most of you guys just skim the posts looking for what you disagree with and start typing.


The Emperor is so focused on destroying Luke that he's caught off-guard by Vader's treachery.

Then I guess Vader is a relatively-new Force user in ESB because Luke has a couple tricks which catch Vader off-guard which under proper circumstances could have killed the Sith Lord - Luke jumping out of the carbon chamber, a weaponless Luke blasting Vader in the face with a hose full of gas, and a battered Luke diving out of the way of Vader's devistating attack to return with a solid hit on Vader's shoulder (an inch higher and Vader would have been decapitated).

How do you know what an experienced Force user could do in the face of an unexpected attack, especially from ANOTHER Force user? Once again, you're expecting the rest of us to accept your argument based on only your own personal belief of how things "should be".

Nobody (or me) ever suggested that an experienced Force user would be fully prescient, able to deflect every unexpected blow coming at him. A fight is a fight, dodge turn parry spinÖ. attack, deflect, etc. Palpatine firing bolts at a whining kid is entirely different. Nobody was attacking Palpatine. He should have been in total control of the situation. Yes, he was wrapped up in the pleasure of killing Luke, but it only stands to reason that a MASTER SITH would be able to multi-task. Killing Luke should have been as easy and mindless as swatting a fly.

And again, this isnít what I think it should be, rather, it is what is laid out by the saga, ROTS notwithstanding.


Depends on how you look at it. If you look at it as Palps "the politician", yeah, it does suggest this. If you look at it as Palps "the Sith master" (which, he is the same person revealed in ROTS), then we know where it's heading. ...


I fully agree with you, that is one way to look at it. You're entirely correct. However, it is a choice to be made both by the writer and by the viewer. The viewer (us) has to choose whether or not he will look at EVERYTHING the saga lays out (minus ROTS) and make a conclusion. OR he must choose to see everything more superficially and decide to take the sci-fi road which is laden with magic and elves and other fantasy ****. I like to think that the OT had more political savvy than just assuming that an all powerful magician clouded everybody's minds and took over. That takes the onus off the population and suggests that the population (us) inevitably has no control over its destiny. By taking the magic out of the equation, it puts the blame back on the population and chastises them for being so apathetic and allowing a takeover to happen.

What I'm trying to figure out is why so many people here are so opposed to actual depth in this story in favor of superficial popcorn plot? :confused: Is it really that cool to see Palpatine wield a lightsaber and throw down on screen? I mean, really? You prefer that to having some kind of integrity to the story?


Thank you JT. You said pretty much everything that needed to be said. :)
I won't add anything more, because they would be considered spoilers for ROTS.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks
And I successfully rebutted just about everything. :D As far as ROTS goes, like I said, it negates this logical conclusion of mine thereby casting more doubt upon the Prequels as upholding the established continuity of the OTÖand ironically, in this case, of Episodes I and II also. Weird, huh?



Anybody who doesn't think Palpatine was a force-user should rewatch the trilogy. :crazed:Yes, he was a Force userÖat the end of ROTJ. All the rest was just talk.


Palpy is a false force user.Word up. :D

Von-El
03-18-2005, 01:27 AM
Stillakid, I spoke my piece and JediTricks and a few other spoke theirs and what you've stated is garbage. I read and comprehend what I read very well.

In ROTS, and with the word "Sith" being in the title, plus the rule of two, Palpatine is going to be exposed because he has hidden from the Jedi--"keep your friends close and your enemies closer is his game". The Jedi are going to be villified, outlawed, and exterminated.

The Jedi will eliminate any evil force-wielders, especially Sith Lords. Palp knows he can't expose himself and wears artifacts to cloak the vergence in the force surrounding him. And when he is exposed by the Jedi as Darth Sidious, they go after him. To cover his tracks, he villifies them as corrupt after killing them. Had the Jedi won that fight, news of Palpatine's treachery would have spread throughout the galaxy. Now whether the Jedi would have revealed to the galaxy that Palpatine was a Sith is the question.

The prequels will show Palpatine as a politician, mostly, but when exposed as Darth Sidious in ROTS, he will have to play both roles of politician and Sith Lord as Anakin becomes Darth Vader and learns the power of the Darkside of the Force.

His force-powers will only be seen by the Jedi. The fact that he is a Sith will only be known by the Jedi and Anakin as he becomes Darth Vader. This power will not be exposed to the galaxy as a whole.



Surely, Stillakid, you and a few others are part of the bunch who are just ticked off that Palpatine gets down in action using force-powers and his lightsabre. There were SW fans ticked that Yoda got down to show action in a fight with Ct. Dooku in AOTC.

Waiting until ROTJ for him to show his power is just plain stupid.

2-1B
03-18-2005, 02:28 AM
stillakid, I've thought some more about your theories here and I do agree with you that it works better if Palpatine takes power as a politician and not a sorcerer . . . where I disagree is in my belief that he DOES do it that way, I just think you are selling short his duplicitous nature. :)

Palpatine the Politician does a heck of a lot of scheming to get his way, to wrest control from the public and really, offhand I can't think of one thing he did in the prequels that was Force-Using (as far as gaining power goes).

In TPM he grinds the wheels of political gridlock and whispers in Padme's ear, talks her into canning Valorum. By the time he takes emergency powers in AOTC I STILL haven't seen him use any sorcery to take control, just the same old tactics that we might find in the "real world."

So while he is definitely a sorceror at heart, he takes power the good old fashioned way. :D

Oh yeah, and his line in ROTJ, "I am looking forward to completing your training." and not to mention Vader's line, "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master." are pretty darn clear onscreen pieces of solid evidence that Palpatine was a Force user long before ROTJ . . . at least.

stillakid
03-18-2005, 07:44 AM
Stillakid, I spoke my piece and JediTricks and a few other spoke theirs and what you've stated is garbage. I read and comprehend what I read very well.
I'm glad you comprehended what I said. However, it isn't "garbage." Just because you want to see Palpatine be a Force user throughout doesn't make it make sense. Answer this: How does he stand right next to Mace and Yoda and never gets "sensed"?


In ROTS, and with the word "Sith" being in the title, plus the rule of two, Palpatine is going to be exposed because he has hidden from the Jedi--"keep your friends close and your enemies closer is his game". The Jedi are going to be villified, outlawed, and exterminated.

The Jedi will eliminate any evil force-wielders, especially Sith Lords. Palp knows he can't expose himself and wears artifacts to cloak the vergence in the force surrounding him. And when he is exposed by the Jedi as Darth Sidious, they go after him. To cover his tracks, he villifies them as corrupt after killing them. Had the Jedi won that fight, news of Palpatine's treachery would have spread throughout the galaxy. Now whether the Jedi would have revealed to the galaxy that Palpatine was a Sith is the question.

The prequels will show Palpatine as a politician, mostly, but when exposed as Darth Sidious in ROTS, he will have to play both roles of politician and Sith Lord as Anakin becomes Darth Vader and learns the power of the Darkside of the Force.
Yeah yeah, I know. That's why I said "ROTS notwithstanding."


His force-powers will only be seen by the Jedi. The fact that he is a Sith will only be known by the Jedi and Anakin as he becomes Darth Vader. This power will not be exposed to the galaxy as a whole.
See, now that's conjecture on your part. You're trying to tell me that NOBODY except Vader knows that he's a "Jedi"? That's a bigger stretch than anything I've written.




Surely, Stillakid, you and a few others are part of the bunch who are just ticked off that Palpatine gets down in action using force-powers and his lightsabre. There were SW fans ticked that Yoda got down to show action in a fight with Ct. Dooku in AOTC.
Who ever said I was "ticked off"? It might be fun to see Palpatine go at it. :D All I'm saying is that it makes little sense in terms of the established continuity set up by IV, V, VI, I and II.


Waiting until ROTJ for him to show his power is just plain stupid. Because....? I don't understand unless you're one of the over-eager fanboys looking for cheap vicarious thrills. Storywise, your assertion doesn't make sense to me. :confused:

stillakid
03-18-2005, 07:49 AM
stillakid, I've thought some more about your theories here and I do agree with you that it works better if Palpatine takes power as a politician and not a sorcerer . . . where I disagree is in my belief that he DOES do it that way, I just think you are selling short his duplicitous nature. :)

Palpatine the Politician does a heck of a lot of scheming to get his way, to wrest control from the public and really, offhand I can't think of one thing he did in the prequels that was Force-Using (as far as gaining power goes).

In TPM he grinds the wheels of political gridlock and whispers in Padme's ear, talks her into canning Valorum. By the time he takes emergency powers in AOTC I STILL haven't seen him use any sorcery to take control, just the same old tactics that we might find in the "real world."

So while he is definitely a sorceror at heart, he takes power the good old fashioned way. :D.
I'll concede that it is a possibility. But because of the way the saga is written (minus ROTS), my "opposition" HAS TO also concede that my conclusion is also possible. In this case, there seems to be "two ways about it." :D


Oh yeah, and his line in ROTJ, "I am looking forward to completing your training." and not to mention Vader's line, "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master." are pretty darn clear onscreen pieces of solid evidence that Palpatine was a Force user long before ROTJ . . . at least.
Who ever said that it takes a Force user to teach it? Those who can't do...teach. :D

stillakid
03-18-2005, 08:00 AM
I have another question that seemed somewhat relevant. Where did all those Imperial officers come from? Guys like Tarkin, Motti, Piett, etc.? I mean, Palpatine theoretically takes over the galaxy using magic, not for any wholly political purpose. There is really no overriding "injustice" or anything going on, none that we've seen, just some kind of schism that's happening for no reason. (I mean, there is a reason...Palpatine engineers the split, but there is no true reason). What compels these guys in gray and black to be a part of the new government? They are bad guys. They do evil things which don't smack of someone trying to put order back into a chaotic and FREE galaxy. So why would these "normal" mortals follow a whacked out evil guy in a death cloak? Tarkin seems particularly creepy, but Piett isn't. What drove him to join up with the "cause"?

rbaumhauer
03-18-2005, 09:06 AM
Well, as I've mentioned before, this gets us into an area where the heavily revised timeline starts to cause problems. The "Annotated Screenplays" state that Vader should be in his 60s in ROTJ, but since we know there is only 20 years between ROTS and ANH, Vader is only actually in his mid-40s in ROTJ.

More importantly, this also means that the Empire has only existed for those same 20 years, and as I've stated before, that just feels really "off". While I'll grant that 20 years under such a regime would undoubtedly feel like a long time to anybody living through it, when compared to the "thousand generations" that the Jedi were around, it feels like blip, an anomaly.

If the timeline had allowed for 30-40 years between ROTS and ANH, you'd have a lot better rationale for guys like Piett, etc - they would have grown up knowing little besides war, and the "peace and order" that was finally brought about by the Empire. With only 20 years, that's no longer the case - somebody like Piett is old enough to have lived in the Republic before the wars began.

I think Lucas lost the thread (several threads?) somewhere, and he's now telling a story that doesn't fit its setting the way it did up until the end of ESB. Vader's revelation, as great a moment as it is, started the process of "galaxy-shrinking", ROTJ accelerated it, and the prequels have hammered it home. He's telling a story that works better in a small cluster of systems - say 50, tops - but he's already commited to a "galaxy-spanning saga", and the time and distance scales no longer fit the story.

As far as Palpatine being a Sith in the Prequel era, well, I thought he should NEVER have been a Force-user, ever. I read the novelisation after seeing ANH, as I'm sure you did, and the Emperor of its prologue is not the Emperor we ended up with in ROTJ, to the detriment of the Saga (to my mind, anyways).

A point in your favor vs JT (which I'm surprised you didn't notice) is that the line is ESB is,"There is a great disturbance in the Force" - no mention of "sensing" it himself. It's just semantics, but it could still fit your ideas without being an outright lie.

Still, I think you're tilting at windmills here :) As much as I disagree with it from a story perspective, it seems pretty clear that Palpatine is going to be a Force-user in ROTS, for good or ill (story-wise). I do wish people (including Lucas) would think things through, though - structuring the story the way he has commits him to a path that leaves an absolute TON of loose ends, most importantly:

If Palpatine is a Sith, who trained him, and why?

Once you start setting up these "there can be only two" and "you were the Chosen One" story points, especially in a setting that supposedly spans a galaxy, you really paint yourself into a corner. The basic problem, as I see it, is that the world implied by ANH, vague as it was, felt like it could have existed, given what we were shown. In making the Prequels, Lucas has set up a situation where the timeline from TPM-ROTS is overly-detailed (from a setting perspective), and more importantly, the events leave me feeling like the "implied history" (everything that happened before the Prequels) no longer makes sense. The events of TPM-ROTS depict a place that no longer feels mythical (as I would argue ANH and ESB, at least, certainly did) - it's too detailed (and banal - yes, I'm working up to replying to "that other thread").

The Story, however, still has to be treated as Myth, or it falls apart - how else to you deal with the Ultimate Evil Bad Guy just appearing out of nowhere, as a fully-trained Big Bad Evil Sorcerer who needs an Apprentice in the form of the "hero" of the whole story?

If Palpatine was just a crafty politician, Anakin/Vader just an idealist who went down the wrong path (along with many others - remember that the existence of more than one Dark Lord is hinted at in the ANH novelisation, as well), you could get away with the Prequel setting, but these characters, this story, set against this backdrop - it just clashes, for the lack of a better word.

So, I certainly understand your reasons for wanting things to be the way you see them, I really do. But this George Lucas doesn't have the storytelling chops to see the underlying problems of doing things the way he's doing them, and it seems pretty clear (to me) that the path he's taking isn't the one that makes sense, but he's still taking that path.

Rick

darthvyn
03-18-2005, 09:58 AM
I have another question that seemed somewhat relevant. Where did all those Imperial officers come from? Guys like Tarkin, Motti, Piett, etc.? I mean, Palpatine theoretically takes over the galaxy using magic, not for any wholly political purpose. There is really no overriding "injustice" or anything going on, none that we've seen, just some kind of schism that's happening for no reason. (I mean, there is a reason...Palpatine engineers the split, but there is no true reason). What compels these guys in gray and black to be a part of the new government? They are bad guys. They do evil things which don't smack of someone trying to put order back into a chaotic and FREE galaxy. So why would these "normal" mortals follow a whacked out evil guy in a death cloak? Tarkin seems particularly creepy, but Piett isn't. What drove him to join up with the "cause"?

"zay vere just followink orders!"

seriously, some wanted to have power, some wanted to go with the flow of the new regime, some just wanted a steady job. maybe, just maybe some believed the lying machinations of a *GASP* sith lord not even knowing he was such!!!


Answer this: How does he stand right next to Mace and Yoda and never gets "sensed"?

because he's not using the force then. duh?

and when he is, the dark side clouds everything. it's already been established in continuity. just because you're unhappy with that answer doesn't mean that it's not the answer. now if you're done throwing rocks at the beehive, can we all get back to salivating over the new trailer?

scruffziller
03-18-2005, 10:14 AM
because he's not using the force then. duh?

and when he is, the dark side clouds everything. it's already been established in continuity. just because you're unhappy with that answer doesn't mean that it's not the answer. now if you're done throwing rocks at the beehive, can we all get back to salivating over the new trailer?

Plus too in AOTC, Mace and Yoda have come to the conclusion that their ability to use the force effectively has diminshed. If there is any plot point that is a deliberate plant plug for the OT it's this one.

Kidhuman
03-18-2005, 10:55 AM
Yes, but not until after he starts actually learning how to use the Force in ROTJ. Had he been a Force user prior, specifically prior to ANH, the Jedi most certainly would have felt his presence and rooted him out long before AOTC or TPM.





But didnt Yoda and Mace have the conversation of how the Force was being clouded and that they dont have as much power. So therefore, with Palps running around in TPM and AOTC, he masked his presence and blinded there Jedi to him. Therefore he is a superior force user....

Imperial Monarche
03-18-2005, 11:01 AM
I have another question that seemed somewhat relevant. Where did all those Imperial officers come from? Guys like Tarkin, Motti, Piett, etc.? I mean, Palpatine theoretically takes over the galaxy using magic, not for any wholly political purpose. There is really no overriding "injustice" or anything going on, none that we've seen, just some kind of schism that's happening for no reason. (I mean, there is a reason...Palpatine engineers the split, but there is no true reason). What compels these guys in gray and black to be a part of the new government? They are bad guys. They do evil things which don't smack of someone trying to put order back into a chaotic and FREE galaxy. So why would these "normal" mortals follow a whacked out evil guy in a death cloak? Tarkin seems particularly creepy, but Piett isn't. What drove him to join up with the "cause"?

Just like the Nazi's, who were all mortal men, followed without question a purely eccentric dictator. Look at "Schindler's List", Ralph Finnes was as evil as normal men come, but Schindler wasn't and he was part of the Nazi party. So, what makes these men follow Hitler, just as the Imperial Officers follow Palps? Not because Hitler used magic, but because he played to the hearts of the people, just like Palps does. I don't have the Force, but if I use manipulation by playing to the emotions of people I can do the same thing as Palps and Hitler. There's no magic to it. Palps promises them power, even though they are totally under his control the whole time, but they don't realize that.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-18-2005, 12:23 PM
Oh... kay. So after 3 years, only now does Palpatine decide to call Vader up and lay on the BS about the Son of Skywalker the very same day that Luke actually does take his first lesson with Yoda? Wow, hot damn that's some coincidence there! I especially love how in your vision of how things should be Vader is now an idiot who can't sense when he's being lied to by only ONE regular guy even though he already has with countless other regular guys.
That was great!!! :D


Maybe, maybe not. Palpatine was an excellent liar/politician. He got where he was because he was a master manipulator. No magic required. So if he managed to snow Vader long enough, and he did, Vader wouldn't have thought he had the opportunity. But that's all beside the point really, because Vader didn't seriously start thinking about taking over until mid-ESB. Palpatine recognized the possibility immediately which is why he called Vader on the phone during the asteroid sequence. He needed to make sure Vader remembered which side he was on. So once Vader put serious thought into the possibility of a coup, Palpatine redoubled his efforts at maintaining control by claiming to have foreseen the future. I also maintain that he also put some time into learning how to toss some lightning around. But because he was just a learner, he couldn't control it therefore when Vader took him by surprise, Palps was a goner. A MASTER would have foreseen Vader doing that and would have survived. That's not what happened.
Well then, why would Vader repeatedly refer to Palpatine as "Master?" Nobody else is learning the Force from him, so they don't call him Master. I know you're going to bring up "Master Jedi" being used in the prequels, but that's different, it's like calling someone "Officer" or something. Palpatine was so caught off-guard by Vader throwing him down. It's happened before, such as Darth Maul not knowing Obi-Wan would cut him in two (even though he wasn't the master).


You're assuming that everybody needs a teacher. Look back at ANH. All Ben ever really told Luke was "stretch out with your feelings," "let go." Pretty simple stuff. Even Yoda was pretty nebulous with his lessons. But assuming that Palps was chock full o' Midichlorians too, it wouldn't have taken much to learn how to levitate fruit and fire some lightning bolts from his fingers. Dooku did it and he wasn't all that much to look at.
Umm . . . to learn something, everyone needs a teacher of some sort. I seriously doubt there were any "Learn the Dark Side in Ten Easy Steps!" programs or books that Palpatine could've used, especially during the OT or immediately before. Here's a fun project: why don't you try to learn kung fu without anyone telling you how, or even looking at anyone else doing it? I'd imagine it'd be pretty hard.

I never got the impression that Palpatine was lying, and I don't think anyone else has. But you're too steeped in this conversation to back out now.

Von-El
03-18-2005, 01:31 PM
I agree that Palpatine took over the Republic, politically.

That is not what is being disputed. The Sith have been trying to take over the Republic as revenge for their defeat thousands of years prior.

Palpatine did it. He took over by instigating a series of events that led to his rise in power.

The Jedi knew ther was an elusive Sith Lord causing problems since the death of Darth Maul. 10 years later by AOTC, the Jedi learned the name of this Sith Lord--Darth Sidious and his being in league with the Viceroy of the Trade Federation from Count Dooku aka Darth Tyrannus.

In the first two prequels, Palpatine is just a politician. We also see Darth Sidious who isn't revealed to be Palpatine. They are treated as two different people. By ROTS, Palpatine's schemes are revealed and so is his identity of Darth Sidious--meaning he has to play the Sith role.

In the original trilogy, which is paralleled by the prequel trilogy, Palpatine, who is the Emperor, is briefly mentioned in ANH, seen via hologram in ESB (hinting his own force powers) and no outright action of him being the main bad guy and Sith Lord. It isn't until ROTJ that Palp shows action. It isn't until ROTS that Palp shows action. See the parallels?

It's just that in the PT we see Palpatine more often but as a politician. Once revealed as Darth Sidious we see him in Sith role. Again in the first two prequel movies, Palp and Sidious are treate as two different people though we know they are one and the same. Heck we don't even see Sidious using the force or fighting in TPM or AOTC.

rbaumhauer
03-18-2005, 02:44 PM
Just like the Nazi's, who were all mortal men, followed without question a purely eccentric dictator. Look at "Schindler's List", Ralph Finnes was as evil as normal men come, but Schindler wasn't and he was part of the Nazi party. So, what makes these men follow Hitler, just as the Imperial Officers follow Palps? Not because Hitler used magic, but because he played to the hearts of the people, just like Palps does. I don't have the Force, but if I use manipulation by playing to the emotions of people I can do the same thing as Palps and Hitler. There's no magic to it. Palps promises them power, even though they are totally under his control the whole time, but they don't realize that.

Not a bad analogy, but I think you're missing the mark. The various admirals, captains, etc that we see in the OT are more akin to the German Navy, Air Force, and Army of WWII, than the SS (those would be the Stormtroopers, in spite of their inability to hit much of importance :) ). Most of the high-ranking officers in the German armed forces in WWII were from military families, many of them Prussian, steeped in tradition and duty to country.

If the Empire is only 20 years old, there's no analogous tradition for the military men to follow - the Republic didn't even have an Army until the clones were delivered. That's why I think the timespan between the PT and the OT has been screwed up - what we see in the OT are a bunch of "1st generation" guys, which would make sense if there was a longer gap between ROTS and ANH - they would have grown up during war, and seen the Empire bring "peace and order". With only 20 years between the events we see, these guys should have pretty clear memories of the Republic, Palpatine's power grab, the existence of the Jedi - pretty much the entire PT should be known to them.

Now explain their actions in the absence of any traditional sense of duty to "country" - pretty hard to manage, no? Not impossible, but much more difficult than if there was a more believable timespan between the trilogies - more time for people to forget, more time for a new generation to be born and grow up under the Empire, less need for outright brainwashing of the entire population of the Republic/Empire (which seems to be what is required under the current circumstances).

Rick

Rocketboy
03-18-2005, 08:03 PM
Stilla, let get one point straight...
I'm trying to follow your train of though there, so correct me if I'm wrong (or if I've just totally misunderstood something a few pages back) -

Are you saying that if Palpatine is indeed a Sith in the prequels, then the Jedi should have sensed that. Correct?

If that is indeed the case, then they also should have sensed Maul and Dooku, two confirmed Sith, who were each on Coruscant at one point during TPM and AOTC.

JediTricks
03-18-2005, 10:00 PM
Um..erm...heh. I think I said that. :eek: Except it's out of context if it is my quote. I was talking about Sidious and Palpatine and wether or not they were the same person, but that's a different discussion entirely. Anybody who doesn't think Palpatine was a force-user should rewatch the trilogy. :crazed:Well, you weren't the only one who said it. Some of the points were that Sidious and Palpatine weren't the same person, that Palps was a politician being used by Sidious and later replaced by him, some that TPM Palps was merely a clone of Sidious, those are some rationales why we don't see him "be Sithly" in the film.


KH, you're going to mustafar for that one! :D



Maul IS detected. Where? What part of the movie shows that Maul is detected ahead of time? The script says exactly otherwise, so point me in the direction of where the movie contradicts this.


Who says Luke didnít sense Vader on Cloud City?Luke is caught off-guard when looking for Vader on the central core after Luke gets knocked out of the window. I think he's also surprised when he's cut off from R2 and express-mailed to the carbon freeze chamber.


Right, Palps did say that, but he was lying. That information about Luke would have come from spies. Anakin + offspring = threat. No magic necessary to figure that out. Again, Palpy just happened to pick the very same moment that Luke starts learning from Yoda to make this lie after 3 years of not saying jack, and the very same time Vader feels it? No way, your "filmic license" claim is stretched way too thin to accept this, even the deux ex machina in SW isn't that heinous.


The point about Tarkin is that he believes (and says) that Vader is the last of the religion. That means that either A) Palpatine IS a Force user and Tarkin doesnít know it or B) that Palpatine ISNíT a Force user and Tarkin knows that. A seems unlikely because Vader is only the right hand man. Being able to crush a throat at 30 paces should trump political savvy any day. B IS more likely because of the reasons expressed in A. If being able to crush a throat at 30 paces trumped political savvy in ANH, then why would Vader bother taking orders from Tarkin? Oh lemme guess, Palps isn't a Sith but Tarkin actually was, right? :p

To use the vernacular, what the hell are you talking about? :confused:Who ever suggested there were spies on Dagobah? And for what reason? Go back and reread what I wrote. Honestly, I think that most of you guys just skim the posts looking for what you disagree with and start typing. The Emperor knows that Luke has just become a ripple in the Force but is still not yet a Jedi, Vader feels it as well, both say they feel this at the exact time that Yoda starts training Luke, so these Imperial Spies of yours must have seen Yoda start training Luke and called the Emp with the skinny, otherwise how would he have known all this? Except that's too ridiculous even for your scenario, so you claim it's "filmic license" as a leap beyond even the sense and logic of the Star Wars universe just so you can fit it into your half-baked theory. Either the Emp sensed Luke's disturbance of the Force, or one of the Emp's Imperial spies saw Luke start learning from Yoda and told the Emp so he could make the call to Vader - convoluted? You betcha, but that's your theory, not mine.

2-1B
03-19-2005, 12:55 AM
Who ever said that it takes a Force user to teach it? Those who can't do...teach.

And those who can't teach . . . teach gym. :D

On a serious note, I don't even think Tarkin is that smart to begin with. "She lied! She lied to us!"
Uhhhhhh, yeah dude ? :rolleyes:
I mean really, like Leia would give up her allies like that. ;)

stillakid
03-19-2005, 10:24 AM
"because he's not using the force then. duh?

and when he is, the dark side clouds everything. it's already been established in continuity. just because you're unhappy with that answer doesn't mean that it's not the answer. now if you're done throwing rocks at the beehive, can we all get back to salivating over the new trailer?

In ANH, Obi Wan Kenobi wasn't "using the Force" when Vader "sensed the presence of his old master." Duh. Explain that one then reconsider your rude "duh" statement, smartguy. :rolleyes:


Plus too in AOTC, Mace and Yoda have come to the conclusion that their ability to use the force effectively has diminshed. If there is any plot point that is a deliberate plant plug for the OT it's this one.

Mace and Yoda are guessing. They have NO idea what's going on at that point. All they know is that there might be a Sith in influencing the Senate and they are guessing at how they could have missed it. Of course, this is based on information coming from somebody they don't trust at all, so they aren't 100% sure of any of it anyway.

Keep the inconsistencies comin', gents. I'm deflecting them all. :D The TRUTH can do that. ;)



But didnt Yoda and Mace have the conversation of how the Force was being clouded and that they dont have as much power. So therefore, with Palps running around in TPM and AOTC, he masked his presence and blinded there Jedi to him. Therefore he is a superior force user....

Right, Palps "masked" his presence. Check this out:


COUNT DOOKU
The truth. What if I told you that the
Republic was now under the control of the Dark Lords of the
Sith?

OBI-WAN
No, that's not possible. The Jedi would be aware
of it.

COUNT DOOKU
The dark side of the Force has clouded their
vision, my friend. Hundreds of Senators are now under the
influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious.

OBI-WAN
I don't believe you.


IF this is really the case, then how did Yoda manage to hide his presence on Dagobah from everybody for so long? Is he using the Darkside to mask his presence too?





Well then, why would Vader repeatedly refer to Palpatine as "Master?" Nobody else is learning the Force from him, so they don't call him Master. I know you're going to bring up "Master Jedi" being used in the prequels, but that's different, it's like calling someone "Officer" or something.
Whoa! You can't have it both ways just by proclaiming it so. When it comes to this "religion," master is master. But let's run with your idea for a second and assume you're right. I never said that Palpatine wasn't Vader's master. According to your logic, it is necessary for Palpatine to be a Jedi in that case. Palpatine took Anakin under his wing and effectively became his "master." Right? You proved me right and didn't even realize it. :D



Umm . . . to learn something, everyone needs a teacher of some sort. I seriously doubt there were any "Learn the Dark Side in Ten Easy Steps!" programs or books that Palpatine could've used, especially during the OT or immediately before. Here's a fun project: why don't you try to learn kung fu without anyone telling you how, or even looking at anyone else doing it? I'd imagine it'd be pretty hard.
Well, that's not true at all. I mean, who taught the inventor of Kung Fu how to do it? But let's run with your idea again just for giggles. So who taught Palpatine? If the Sith had been gone for "a millenium," where did Palpatine learn this stuff?


QUI-GON
...my only conclusion can be that it was a Sith Lord.

MACE WINDU
A Sith Lord?!?

KI-ADI
Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millenium.

But more to the point, I NEVER said that Palpatine didn't know how to do this stuff. I just said that he never did it himself. He could have taught Maul, Dooku, and Anakin the theoretical without ever tapping into the Force on his own. For the most part, Yoda didn't "use the Force" with Luke on Dagobah. Sure, he levitated the ship out of the water, but as an illustration to show Luke's lack of conviction. It helped him along, but Luke wasn't taught exactly how to do it. So the important thing here is that when a Force user does something or is powerful enough, it causes "ripples" in the energy field which then can be detected by another Force user. Palpatine could easily have been steeped in the knowledge of the Sith to pass on the teachings without ever have been a user himself, thus avoiding detection.



I never got the impression that Palpatine was lying, and I don't think anyone else has. But you're too steeped in this conversation to back out now.
Palpatine wasn't lying? :confused: That's what he DOES throughout the Prequels. What are you talking about?

As to backing out, why would I? You haven't successfully disproven anything I've said yet. ;)



The Sith have been trying to take over the Republic as revenge for their defeat thousands of years prior.


QUI-GON
...my only conclusion can be that it was a Sith Lord.

MACE WINDU
A Sith Lord?!?

KI-ADI
Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millenium.



By ROTS, Palpatine's schemes are revealed and so is his identity of Darth Sidious--meaning he has to play the Sith role.
Precisely. The Sith role. Which means that he has no need to actually use the Force like a Jedi or Sith lest he becomes detected before his nefarious scheme comes to fruition. Only when it becomes necessary to save his own skin from his own creation (Vader) does he begin to dabble enough in it to protect himself (ROTJ). In the end, both his creation (Vader) and his feeble attempts to use the Force (ROTJ) do him in.


Are you saying that if Palpatine is indeed a Sith in the prequels, then the Jedi should have sensed that. Correct?
I'm saying that if Palpatine had USED the Force, then the Jedi should have sensed him. He needed to escape detection therefore he stayed away from actually using the Force and got his minions to do it for him. Which leads to Part II of your question:


If that is indeed the case, then they also should have sensed Maul and Dooku, two confirmed Sith, who were each on Coruscant at one point during TPM and AOTC.



Where? What part of the movie shows that Maul is detected ahead of time? The script says exactly otherwise, so point me in the direction of where the movie contradicts this.



OBI-WAN
I have a bad feeling about this.

QUI-GON
I don't sense anything.

OBI-WAN
It's not about the mission, Master, it's somethging...elsewhere...elusive.



Luke is caught off-guard when looking for Vader on the central core after Luke gets knocked out of the window. I think he's also surprised when he's cut off from R2 and express-mailed to the carbon freeze chamber.
.
Sure, but Luke is a budding novice. Trying to compare him with a fully developed Jedi is unfair. I mean, showing Luke at a disadvantage was the entire point of the Cloud City sequence. If Luke was even close to being on par with Vader's abilities, it would dilute the illustration of Luke leaving his training too early.



Again, Palpy just happened to pick the very same moment that Luke starts learning from Yoda to make this lie after 3 years of not saying jack, and the very same time Vader feels it? No way, your "filmic license" claim is stretched way too thin to accept this, even the deux ex machina in SW isn't that heinous..
Well, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree with each other on that one. ;) But as Raum pointed out, Palpatine never claims to have sensed anything at that point. He merely suggests that there is a disturbance in the Force. Again, being the consumate politician that he is, he can put 2 and 2 together with logic then spin that information to make it seem like he arrived at that conclusion via the Force.


If being able to crush a throat at 30 paces trumped political savvy in ANH, then why would Vader bother taking orders from Tarkin? Oh lemme guess, Palps isn't a Sith but Tarkin actually was, right?
No, but there was a chain of command and at that point in the story, Vader had no ambitions to actually stage a coup. With the new timeline (thanks to Raum for illustrating it for us :) ), Vader is nary a year or two from being the Anakin we all knew and loved. He is still steeped in a creepy kind of man/boy love for Palpatine who stroked that bipolar brat's ego. It isn't until Luke pops out of the woodwork unexpectedly that Vader's commitment to the "cause" (whatever that is...another discussion altogether) begins to falter. So Vader has no desire nor motivation to crush Tarkin's throat at that point in the story. But we see his attitude change right off the bat in ESB...soon after he has learned about and had time to think about the son he never knew he had.


The Emperor knows that Luke has just become a ripple in the Force but is still not yet a Jedi, Vader feels it as well, both say they feel this at the exact time that Yoda starts training Luke, so these Imperial Spies of yours must have seen Yoda start training Luke and called the Emp with the skinny, otherwise how would he have known all this?
Ohhh, I see what you're getting at. You're ASSUMING that Palps is telling the truth. The problem here is that you're COMBINING the false-scenario (yours) with my correct one which obviously would cause a major rift like the one you are describing. My conclusion (based on the story) tells us that Palpatine didn't really sense anything, therefore the timing of his phone call to Vader was coincidental for the benefit of the fictional story and a front to Vader just to keep Vader in line.



You betcha, but that's your theory, not mine.

No no. That's yours all the way. ;) So yeah, placing spies on Dagobah is outrageously silly. I would think you would have known me better than that to think I would ever suggest such a thing. ;)



On a serious note, I don't even think Tarkin is that smart to begin with. "She lied! She lied to us!"
Uhhhhhh, yeah dude ?
I mean really, like Leia would give up her allies like that.
This was meant, I think, to illustrate the difference between Tarkin and Vader...


MOTTI
Any attack made by the Rebels against this station would be a useless gesture, no matter what technical data they've obtained. This station is now the ultimate power in the universe. I suggest we use it!

VADER
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

MOTTI
Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the Rebel's hidden fort...

Suddenly Motti chokes and starts to turn blue under Vader's spell.

VADER
I find your lack of faith disturbing.

One of Lucas's biggest talking points all these years is the conflict between spirituality and technology. The "anonymous" Imperial officers represent man's reliance on the technology while the "Jedi" represent the spiritual. Tarkin and Vader's exchange that you point out in a summary of that conflict and an illustration of who will win in the end. Vader had little faith that the technology could turn Leia into a traitor as he learned in her detention cell. That's why he knew to let the Falcon go with a tracking device. Tarkin thought that the technology would be fullproof and give him the results he desired. To read something into this that may or may not be there, Vader's Torture Droid in the detention cell was a little ball, like a little Death Star. That proved ineffective. But Tarkin's ball ( ;) ) was much larger and couldn't possibly fail. It's the ultimate in Freudiasm's, yet in the end, the only thing that worked was Vader's reliance on faith.



Still, I think you're tilting at windmills here :)
And in the end, you're right about that. I think that what my examples here show once again is just another Prequel blunder. But we all knew that the continuity and other stuff is all messed up, so it's no surprise. :D

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-19-2005, 02:39 PM
Well, that's not true at all. I mean, who taught the inventor of Kung Fu how to do it? But let's run with your idea again just for giggles. So who taught Palpatine? If the Sith had been gone for "a millenium," where did Palpatine learn this stuff?

But Palpatine didn't invent the powers of a Sith, they'd been around for quite a long time before he learned them. He had to have someone teach them to him. The whole thing about the Sith being "extinct for over a millennia" was all wrong; the Sith had been secretly planning their revenge until it started in TPM ("at last we will have revenge") and ended in ROTS (hence the name). The Sith were always around, two of them at a time anyway, but didn't reveal themselves until Darth Maul attacked and tried to kill Qui-Gon (unsuccessfully) on Tatooine. I guess that the Jedi had thought they wiped out the Sith a thousand years before, but in reality they only sent them into hiding. I thought that was made pretty clear in TPM.


Palpatine wasn't lying? That's what he DOES throughout the Prequels. What are you talking about?
I guess I should've been more specific. Yes, he lied throughout the prequels, but that was made fairly obvious. He never lied about being a Force-user though. As I said many times before, Vader would've realized it if he were lying to his face.

You know what your theory reminds me of? That Burger King commercial from a few months ago, where that nerdy guy in the office says he has a real tattoo, but it turns out to be a "placeholder" for a real one in the future. :D But that doesn't mean it's a good theory, it's a terrible one.

stillakid
03-19-2005, 04:06 PM
But Palpatine didn't invent the powers of a Sith, they'd been around for quite a long time before he learned them. He had to have someone teach them to him.
Ok then, so who taught Palpatine? And where is he/she/it?


The whole thing about the Sith being "extinct for over a millennia" was all wrong;
Hey now, I've been accused of inventing my own EU but all my support comes directly from the films. One might argue my conclusions but it's all there. This assertion by you above is entirely conjecture by you to support your argument. The films SAYS point blank that the Sith have been extinct for over a millennia. Who are you to say that this is "wrong"? It's right there! The film SAYS it. Are you suggesting that perhaps there is an :eek: error in the Prequels? That perhaps the Prequels aren't as air-tight as people are trying to make me believe? :sur:



the Sith had been secretly planning their revenge until it started in TPM ("at last we will have revenge") and ended in ROTS (hence the name). The Sith were always around, two of them at a time anyway, but didn't reveal themselves until Darth Maul attacked and tried to kill Qui-Gon (unsuccessfully) on Tatooine. I guess that the Jedi had thought they wiped out the Sith a thousand years before, but in reality they only sent them into hiding. I thought that was made pretty clear in TPM.
No, not really. And not according to the rest of the saga's continuity. Again, why didn't any of the Jedi sense Palpatine when he was standing right next to them, especially if he was that powerful? He would have been oozing with Force tremors at this point.



I guess I should've been more specific. Yes, he lied throughout the prequels, but that was made fairly obvious. He never lied about being a Force-user though.
And you know this how exactly?


As I said many times before, Vader would've realized it if he were lying to his face.
Who said Vader didn't know? Let's look at it this way for a second. We know (well, at least I do) that Palpatine wasn't a bona-fide Force user until ROTJ. Just like with Maul and Dooku, Palpatine could easily have taught Vader how to tap into the evilness and do his bidding without ever doing any of it himself. And as mentioned previously, Vader (like Maul and Dooku before him) had no plans to stage a coup against Palpatine, at least not right away. So even if Vader was entirely aware of Palpatine's lack of true Force ability, so what? Vader isn't going to get into a wizard's duel over it because he isn't at the point of even thinking coup until after ANH. But if this is the scenario, then Vader might raise his burned off eyebrows at Palpatine's claims that he sees the future. And guess what, he does. "He will come to me?" Vader asks, questioning Palpatine's prediction.




You know what your theory reminds me of? That Burger King commercial from a few months ago, where that nerdy guy in the office says he has a real tattoo, but it turns out to be a "placeholder" for a real one in the future. :D But that doesn't mean it's a good theory, it's a terrible one.
You only think that because you don't like it. The geeky way of thinking here places Lord of the Rings type Magic as the priority over true in-depth storytelling. The fact is that beyond being a "good" theory, it is the only one that withstands the test of accuracy against the proofs throughout the saga so far. Just because you have a personal prejudice against it for whatever Prequel or Lucas worshiping reason you might have, doesn't make it inherently "bad."

darthvyn
03-20-2005, 08:23 AM
In ANH, Obi Wan Kenobi wasn't "using the Force" when Vader "sensed the presence of his old master." Duh. Explain that one then reconsider your rude "duh" statement, smartguy. :rolleyes:

how do you know he wasn't? he must have for vader to sense him. makes sense to me. perhaps because ben wanted to keep vader of the track of luke, han, leia, and chewie. because if vader caught them, the rebellion was all but over. ben gave his life for the cause here. he baited vader to the duel, so he would be easy to separate from the others. that's why, when he saw that luke and the rest were about to board the falcon, he saw that his work was done, and gave himself up to the force.



Mace and Yoda are guessing. They have NO idea what's going on at that point. All they know is that there might be a Sith in influencing the Senate and they are guessing at how they could have missed it. Of course, this is based on information coming from somebody they don't trust at all, so they aren't 100% sure of any of it anyway.

that response was to a quote misrepresented as a post of mine, but i'll answer anyway.

they're GUESSING??? when you have a cold, do you guess you're sick, or do you KNOW you're sick? they KNOW their powers are diminished. they state it as fact. and so it is a fact. WHY their powers are diminished, they don't know. and so neither do we. probably won't until ROTS.



Right, Palps "masked" his presence. Check this out:


COUNT DOOKU
The truth. What if I told you that the
Republic was now under the control of the Dark Lords of the
Sith?

OBI-WAN
No, that's not possible. The Jedi would be aware
of it.

COUNT DOOKU
The dark side of the Force has clouded their
vision, my friend. Hundreds of Senators are now under the
influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious.

OBI-WAN
I don't believe you.


IF this is really the case, then how did Yoda manage to hide his presence on Dagobah from everybody for so long? Is he using the Darkside to mask his presence too?

first off we have the CANNON quote "the dark side clouds EVERYTHING." that's enough right there. once again, it's a statement of fact represented in the world that we are viewing on screen in these movies.

second of all, who says yoda is hiding. we've been over this thing before. yoda is by himself on a deserted world where there is a dark presence, and ben is "hiding" on darth vader's birth world. i really don't think they're hiding at all, except in the vein of "okay, sith, you beat us. we'll go away quietly."

once again, this comes back to my age-old theory of what "balance to the force" means. if it means only two there are, a master and an apprentice. we have sidious, and vader, and we have yoda and ben. two and two. balance. i know, i know, those that think the balance comes at the end of ROTJ believe in "good" as balance, but that's not really a balance. anyway, i'm getting off track here.

i think the quote "their fire has gone out of the universe. you, my friend are all that is left of their religion." is just as inaccurate and arrogant as "the sith have been extinct for over a millenia." just. plain. wrong. now, i know you're gonna say "but you took other quotes as fact." yes, i did. because i was not given any evidence in the movie to distrust those quotes. i was given ben kenobi, to make me realize tarkin's statement to be false, and i was given darth maul to make conehead's statment false.


Ok then, so who taught Palpatine? And where is he/she/it?



now, i can pretty well surmise that the LAST thing you want is prequels to the prequels. i think you want to leave that one alone.

but, for the sake of arguement, when you first watched ANH, did you question who taught ben? or did you take it as a given that SOMEONE had taught him?

Kidhuman
03-20-2005, 09:13 AM
Ok then, so who taught Palpatine? And where is he/she/it?

Agree with Vyn, no prequel prequels for you



Hey now, I've been accused of inventing my own EU but all my support comes directly from the films. One might argue my conclusions but it's all there. This assertion by you above is entirely conjecture by you to support your argument. The films SAYS point blank that the Sith have been extinct for over a millennia. Who are you to say that this is "wrong"? It's right there! The film SAYS it. Are you suggesting that perhaps there is an :eek: error in the Prequels? That perhaps the Prequels aren't as air-tight as people are trying to make me believe? :sur:

Its what they believed. Havent you ever believed something that was wrong? Santa? Tooth Faiy? So what one believes to be true is not always the truth, we all have done it.




No, not really. And not according to the rest of the saga's continuity. Again, why didn't any of the Jedi sense Palpatine when he was standing right next to them, especially if he was that powerful? He would have been oozing with Force tremors at this point.

You answered this one already....

COUNT DOOKU
The dark side of the Force has clouded their
vision, my friend. Hundreds of Senators are now under the
influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious.

stillakid
03-20-2005, 10:09 AM
how do you know he wasn't? he must have for vader to sense him. makes sense to me. perhaps because ben wanted to keep vader of the track of luke, han, leia, and chewie. because if vader caught them, the rebellion was all but over. ben gave his life for the cause here. he baited vader to the duel, so he would be easy to separate from the others. that's why, when he saw that luke and the rest were about to board the falcon, he saw that his work was done, and gave himself up to the force.
Conjecture. Ben took off to go deactivate the tractor beam. No more, no less. Running into Vader was probably expected on his part, but assuming that he "baited" Vader is pure conjecture.




they're GUESSING??? when you have a cold, do you guess you're sick, or do you KNOW you're sick? they KNOW their powers are diminished. they state it as fact. and so it is a fact. WHY their powers are diminished, they don't know. and so neither do we. probably won't until ROTS.
Yeah, they're guessing. They "learn" from a disreputable source that maybe a Sith is in their presence that they haven't detected. From that, they guess that IF that was true THEN the only way it could be is that their powers are somehow diminished. They have NO proof that Dooku is telling the truth therefore they don't even know if the situation is true yet. Therefore any "reasons" are pure conjecture on their part. In truth, they have no idea what to believe at this point.



first off we have the CANNON quote "the dark side clouds EVERYTHING." that's enough right there. once again, it's a statement of fact represented in the world that we are viewing on screen in these movies..
We also have the CANON that Vader is the last of the religion. We have the CANON that young Obi Wan senses something elusive out there. We have the CANON that nobody senses Palpatine. I suppose it depends on what you who you choose to believe, but there is still far more circumstantial evidence supporting my assertion than yours. All you have is that you don't trust what Tarkin said.


second of all, who says yoda is hiding. we've been over this thing before. yoda is by himself on a deserted world where there is a dark presence, and ben is "hiding" on darth vader's birth world. i really don't think they're hiding at all, except in the vein of "okay, sith, you beat us. we'll go away quietly."..
Conjecture, at least until we see how ROTS plays it out. But what makes you think that evil creepy Palpatine would just let one of the most powerful Jedi hang out as a potential threat? If ROTS sets that scenario up, the Prequels will reach new and more impressive depths of stupidity. The only thing that would make any sense would be for Yoda (and Ben) to escape undetected. And now that you've brought up the Ben/Tatooine thing, that's yet another blunder of the Prequels, but that's another discussion.


once again, this comes back to my age-old theory of what "balance to the force" means. if it means only two there are, a master and an apprentice. we have sidious, and vader, and we have yoda and ben. two and two. balance. i know, i know, those that think the balance comes at the end of ROTJ believe in "good" as balance, but that's not really a balance. anyway, i'm getting off track here.
No no, I think it's relevant. You want us to believe that there are always two Sith, no more, no less. Canon, right? So who taught Palpatine and where is he/she/it? But let's assume that, say, Palpatine killed off his "master" about the same time that Maul came sniffing around. Maul dies unexpectedly. Where did Dooku come from then? He's a pretty old guy. We're supposed to believe that Palpatine went out and recruited him right away after Maul gets sliced?


i think the quote "their fire has gone out of the universe. you, my friend are all that is left of their religion." is just as inaccurate and arrogant as "the sith have been extinct for over a millenia." just. plain. wrong.
So you're picking and choosing what you want to believe to fit your preconcieved notions of what the saga should be. I think I was accused of that very thing not so long ago. So who exactly gets to be the judge and jury of what we keep as CANON and what we toss out? Seems like a free-for-all to me.


now, i know you're gonna say "but you took other quotes as fact." yes, i did. because i was not given any evidence in the movie to distrust those quotes. i was given ben kenobi, to make me realize tarkin's statement to be false, and i was given darth maul to make conehead's statment false.
Okay, if we're going to play the game this way, then will you join me in denouncing the Prequels as they ignored Old Ben's statements to the fact that Yoda was his master? Or will you rationalize that away as well?





but, for the sake of arguement, when you first watched ANH, did you question who taught ben? or did you take it as a given that SOMEONE had taught him?
Well, when I first watched ANH, I was about 7 years old, so I doubt the question even crossed my mind. But sure, I suppose it was assumed that somebody taught Ben. We learn in ANH that Ben was a teacher to Vader thus setting up the whole student/teacher thing. So what? What's that got to do with anything? I think you're trying to suggest that because Ben was taught by someone (ESB and ROTJ tell us it was Yoda, the Prequels contradict this), that it automatically means that Palpatine must have had a teacher too. Why? They are two different people in two different scenarios. But the CANON of the story tells us that the Sith have been extinct for over a millenia. And the CANON of the story tells us that Vader is the last of "their religion." (Tarkin thought that all the other Jedi were dead and he had no reason to suspect that Palpatine was a Force user as Palpatine never used the Force until ROTJ). So we're back to who you want to believe. For me, I believe the story...the established continuity of the OT, which, ironically, in some cases (in this case specifically) is backed up by Episodes I and II. ROTS will undo this continuity reportedly. You, like so many others, choose to twist and contort the established continuity to fit into this new mold. Perhaps the 3-D experience will come along with some new and exciting changes in ANH which will more accurately support your assertions. But as of now, it just doesn't appear to be so. :(

darthvyn
03-20-2005, 11:11 AM
Conjecture. Ben took off to go deactivate the tractor beam. No more, no less. Running into Vader was probably expected on his part, but assuming that he "baited" Vader is pure conjecture.

he's using the force on the death star. vader senses it. "he is here, the force is with him." "escape is not his plan. i must face him alone." baited.




Yeah, they're guessing. They "learn" from a disreputable source that maybe a Sith is in their presence that they haven't detected. From that, they guess that IF that was true THEN the only way it could be is that their powers are somehow diminished. They have NO proof that Dooku is telling the truth therefore they don't even know if the situation is true yet. Therefore any "reasons" are pure conjecture on their part. In truth, they have no idea what to believe at this point.

they're not guessing. mace says to yoda "maybe it's time to tell the senate that our power over the force is diminishing." it's implied that their power diminshing pre-dates the revelation of the sith. they're not guessing about that.




We also have the CANON that Vader is the last of the religion. We have the CANON that young Obi Wan senses something elusive out there. We have the CANON that nobody senses Palpatine. I suppose it depends on what you who you choose to believe, but there is still far more circumstantial evidence supporting my assertion than yours. All you have is that you don't trust what Tarkin said.

we have tarkin SAYING that vader is the last of the religion. sure, it's in the movie, so it's canon, but that doesn't mean that it's an accurate statement in the whole of the saga. not only has he got the wrong religion (jedi? no, sith!) but he's just plain wrong. ben kenobi is alive and well at this point. it's not that i don't trust him. he's wrong. so is ki-adi (i forgot his name before...) the sith haven't been extinct for a millenia. there's two of them that WE'VE seen! it's also "CANON" that ben tells luke his father was murdered and betrayed by vader. doesn't make it fact! (except from a certain point of view... ;) ) the semantics being played off here are a little absurd. just because it's a line in the movie doesn't make it a fact in the world within the movie.



Conjecture, at least until we see how ROTS plays it out. But what makes you think that evil creepy Palpatine would just let one of the most powerful Jedi hang out as a potential threat? If ROTS sets that scenario up, the Prequels will reach new and more impressive depths of stupidity. The only thing that would make any sense would be for Yoda (and Ben) to escape undetected. And now that you've brought up the Ben/Tatooine thing, that's yet another blunder of the Prequels, but that's another discussion.

yes, that was conjecture. maybe he can't kill him, but they killed every other jedi besides himself and obi-wan. therefore, they didn't need to. balance acheived. two and two. remember, obi-wan is the only jedi so far we've seen with the power to stand up to and even kill a sith. and yoda fought dooku to a stand-still. they are arguably the most powerful jedi we've seen. perhaps that's why they're still alive. "well, they can't be destroyed, but we don't need to destroy them... we got everyone else. oh, and we took over the galaxy, too! fancy that..."

and, yes, that's MY theory, but i think it's a sound one. maybe they're let go. "it's the only explanation for the ease of our escape."



No no, I think it's relevant. You want us to believe that there are always two Sith, no more, no less. Canon, right? So who taught Palpatine and where is he/she/it? But let's assume that, say, Palpatine killed off his "master" about the same time that Maul came sniffing around. Maul dies unexpectedly. Where did Dooku come from then? He's a pretty old guy. We're supposed to believe that Palpatine went out and recruited him right away after Maul gets sliced?

yes, the "only two there are" thing is a sticky wicket. it's like in hot shots: part deux: "these monks are celibate, like their fathers and their fathers before them..."

we've already got cannonical evidence that two sith will discuss openly taking on a new apprentice. "if he could be turned, he would be a great asset." basically saying, hey this guy could help me take you out... oh, yeah, well he could help me take you out too! base survival of the fittest. so perhaps dooku was before maul, maybe not. we don't know yet. or, maybe palps is playing by his own rules: he is evil, after all...



So you're picking and choosing what you want to believe to fit your preconcieved notions of what the saga should be. I think I was accused of that very thing not so long ago. So who exactly gets to be the judge and jury of what we keep as CANON and what we toss out? Seems like a free-for-all to me.

no, i'm picking and choosing what to believe based on the evidence given to me in the movie i'm watching. simple as that...



Okay, if we're going to play the game this way, then will you join me in denouncing the Prequels as they ignored Old Ben's statements to the fact that Yoda was his master? Or will you rationalize that away as well?

can we rule the galaxy as father and son?



Well, when I first watched ANH, I was about 7 years old, so I doubt the question even crossed my mind.

and here i thought you were STILL A KID?


But sure, I suppose it was assumed that somebody taught Ben. We learn in ANH that Ben was a teacher to Vader thus setting up the whole student/teacher thing. So what? What's that got to do with anything?

uh, EVERYTHING?



I think you're trying to suggest that because Ben was taught by someone (ESB and ROTJ tell us it was Yoda, the Prequels contradict this), that it automatically means that Palpatine must have had a teacher too. Why? They are two different people in two different scenarios.

he had to learn it from somewhere. either by a sith lord, or by a sith holocron, or by the book of sith, or sam's teach yourself to be a sith lord in 24 hours. the most plausible? he was taught by a sith lord.



But the CANON of the story tells us that the Sith have been extinct for over a millenia. And the CANON of the story tells us that Vader is the last of "their religion." (Tarkin thought that all the other Jedi were dead and he had no reason to suspect that Palpatine was a Force user as Palpatine never used the Force until ROTJ). So we're back to who you want to believe. For me, I believe the story...the established continuity of the OT, which, ironically, in some cases (in this case specifically) is backed up by Episodes I and II. ROTS will undo this continuity reportedly. You, like so many others, choose to twist and contort the established continuity to fit into this new mold. Perhaps the 3-D experience will come along with some new and exciting changes in ANH which will more accurately support your assertions. But as of now, it just doesn't appear to be so. :(

so it's canon that ben is just a crazy old hermit, and that obi-wan died around the same time as luke's father. this is a pretty confusing movie if everyone is telling the truth here!

once again, you twist and contort the definition of "canon" to your own means. just because it is a line of the movie doesn't mean it is a statement of fact within the world of the movie. tarkin is WRONG. you've never watched a movie where a statement by a character is just plain wrong? ki-adi mundi is wrong as well. the sith aren't extinct. there's two of 'em hangin' out on coruscant. we've SEEN that these characters are wrong about their assertions. tarkin is audacious and complacent. he won't believe that the jedi still exist. a parallel to the fact that ki-adi believes the sith are extinct. the jedi are audacious in their belief that the sith don't exist anymore.

2-1B
03-20-2005, 12:19 PM
And that one guy said to the other guy that the Death Star was not at risk, yet that one Luke Skywalker guy ended up blowing the thing up.

Talk about a break in cannon, that's in ONE movie, not spread out over many. I mean, it's established as cannon that the Death Star is impregnable because that one guy said so, then we see a break in continuity when Anakin Jr. blows it up. :p

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-20-2005, 01:09 PM
You only think that because you don't like it. The geeky way of thinking here places Lord of the Rings type Magic as the priority over true in-depth storytelling. The fact is that beyond being a "good" theory, it is the only one that withstands the test of accuracy against the proofs throughout the saga so far. Just because you have a personal prejudice against it for whatever Prequel or Lucas worshiping reason you might have, doesn't make it inherently "bad."
And just because you don't like the prequels doesn't make them "bad." And wait, I have a personal prejudice against off-the-wall theories that blatantly go against what is stated in the films over and over again? Well then, I guess I do. And the only thing I'm "worshipping" here is what's been in the film series for 25 years - Palpatine is a Force-user.


No, not really. And not according to the rest of the saga's continuity. Again, why didn't any of the Jedi sense Palpatine when he was standing right next to them, especially if he was that powerful? He would have been oozing with Force tremors at this point.
The rest of the saga's continuity? What? If every Force-user could detect another Force-user even when they weren't tapping into their power, then why couldn't Vader know that the prisoner he was with was his daughter? Or that when he was capturing said daughter, that he was over a planet that held his son and former master? And why couldn't Obi-Wan realize that Dooku was a Sith, even when they were discussing Darth Sidious?


Okay, if we're going to play the game this way, then will you join me in denouncing the Prequels as they ignored Old Ben's statements to the fact that Yoda was his master? Or will you rationalize that away as well?
As clearly seen in AOTC, Yoda trains all the Jedi as children, apparently until other Jedi take over at around age 12 or 13. Even still, Yoda and the rest of the Council gives advice to the Jedi when they're older (such as the end scene in TPM where Yoda chats privately with Obi-Wan). Obi-Wan hung out with Yoda and Mace from time to time, like getting help about Anakin (as seen in AOTC). And besides, it wouldn't be very nice for the scene to go:

OBI-WAN: Luke. You must go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me. Well actually, he only helped a little bit, as it was mostly Qui-Gon Jinn's job. Anyway, you should . . .
Luke passes out dead.

Beast
03-20-2005, 02:25 PM
I still say the lack of detecting Palpatine's force abilities is because they're not aware of his specific force signature. Since a force user can feel everyone in the force, it would be like finding a needle in a haystack. To sense another force user, it seems that there has to be some familiarity with the user. Look at Vader, he doesn't sense Luke or Leia in ANH, because he wasn't familar with their signatures in the force. Yet he clues in on Obi-Wan's almost immediatly. Same as Obi and Qui don't sense Maul specifically. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
03-20-2005, 05:11 PM
I still say the lack of detecting Palpatine's force abilities is because they're not aware of his specific force signature. Since a force user can feel everyone in the force, it would be like finding a needle in a haystack. To sense another force user, it seems that there has to be some familiarity with the user. Look at Vader, he doesn't sense Luke or Leia in ANH, because he wasn't familar with their signatures in the force. Yet he clues in on Obi-Wan's almost immediatly. Same as Obi and Qui don't sense Maul specifically. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks
That's whackier than my theory. :crazed: The reason Vader doesn't ever sense Leia is because she isn't a Force user...ever in the saga. Vader doesn't sense Luke on the Death Star because he doesn't use the Force in the Death Star. Vader DOES sense Luke OVER the Death Star at the very end because that's when Luke uses the Force.

Look guys, it's very simple. Force users create waves in the energy field (ya know, the one Yoda spoke so eloquently about in ESB). They do that when they use do something that requires tapping into the energy field. The level of "disturbance" in the energy field appears to vary depending upon what exactly is being done to the energy field. Lifting a small object won't cause a large ripple, but it still does it. Blowing up a planet disturbs a large portion of the energy field much like a boulder being thrown into a pond therefore a Force sensitive being will sense that disturbance more and even at great distances. We also know that a particularly adept Force user will create waves even while just sitting idle. (ANH) Those are the very simple and elegant rules established by the OT films.

So, KNOWING that, Palpatine would have been creating unmistakable waves in the pond that any Jedi should have sensed. Because they didn't sense him, he couldn't have been a Force user.

What of this "clouding the mind" stuff? That was pure conjecture based on a guess by a few of the Jedi. They had no idea if Dooku's story was true and were sitting around shootin' the sh** and coming up with guesses as to how it got by them if it was true. Period.

Who taught Maul if Palpatine wasn't a Sith? Well, Palpatine did, but that doesn't mean he did any "Force stuff" himself during the lessons.

It's easy to get caught up in the confusing specifics, but let's go back to the central issue. KNOWING that a Force user can be sensed by another Force user, why would Palpatine NOT use the Force? So that he can remain safely anonymous as he practices his nefarious brand of politics. If he did use the Force, either to cloud people's minds or to teach Maul or Dooku, he would have given himself away and his plans would have come crumbling down around him. Plain and simple. Why is this so difficult to comprehend and accept? I don't get it. :confused:

stillakid
03-20-2005, 05:27 PM
And just because you don't like the prequels doesn't make them "bad." And wait, I have a personal prejudice against off-the-wall theories that blatantly go against what is stated in the films over and over again? Well then, I guess I do. And the only thing I'm "worshipping" here is what's been in the film series for 25 years - Palpatine is a Force-user.
The only incidence that proves Palpatine has been a Force user in the past 25 years comes at the very tail end of ROTJ. He doesn't use the Force in I, II, IV, or V. You've ASSUMED that he has been a Force user, but there is no proof that it is so. (Of course, as stated, ROTS will most likely contradict the established continuity.)



The rest of the saga's continuity? What? If every Force-user could detect another Force-user even when they weren't tapping into their power, then why couldn't Vader know that the prisoner he was with was his daughter? .
:confused: When exactly was Leia using the Force while in Vader's clutches? For that matter, when did Leia ever use the Force on screen? She may have been choke full o' Midichlorians, but until she learns to use the Force and actually does it, she won't be sending out any ripples into the energy field.


Or that when he was capturing said daughter, that he was over a planet that held his son and former master?
Luke wasn't a Force user until after he met Ben.

Why didn't he sense Ben at that point over Tatooine? As stated, we know that Vader sensed Ben on the Death Star when Ben was sitting idle. But the ripples he was sending out were small and only sensed when the sender and receiver were close to one another. Vader probably could have sensed Old Ben had he gotten close enough, but Ben was down on the surface somewhere and Vader was up in orbit. Had Ben done some major kind of Force use, then yeah, Vader most likely would have and should have sense him there. But he didn't so nothing happened.


And why couldn't Obi-Wan realize that Dooku was a Sith, even when they were discussing Darth Sidious?
Who says he didn't? But more to the point, nobody ever said that Jedi and Sith send out different disturbances in the energy field. A ripple is a ripple. Obi Wan would have sensed Dooku and that's it. The energy field is just a neutral entity. Just like guns. A gun is just a gun. How is gets used, for good or evil, is up to the guy who picks it up.



As clearly seen in AOTC, Yoda trains all the Jedi as children, apparently until other Jedi take over at around age 12 or 13. Even still, Yoda and the rest of the Council gives advice to the Jedi when they're older (such as the end scene in TPM where Yoda chats privately with Obi-Wan). Obi-Wan hung out with Yoda and Mace from time to time, like getting help about Anakin (as seen in AOTC). And besides, it wouldn't be very nice for the scene to go:

OBI-WAN: Luke. You must go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me. Well actually, he only helped a little bit, as it was mostly Qui-Gon Jinn's job. Anyway, you should . . .
Luke passes out dead.
Right, you've proven that having Qui Gon artificially injected into the story is ridiculous. Thank you for doing the work for me. :D But you still misunderstand. As clearly seen in the OT, Ben says point blank, "You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi master who instructed me." There's a lot more to prove this point, but I will refrain from revisiting it all here. There are a least a couple of older threads that discuss this issue that you can look up. :)

stillakid
03-20-2005, 05:53 PM
he's using the force on the death star. vader senses it. "he is here, the force is with him." "escape is not his plan. i must face him alone." baited.
That's Vader's take on it. It doesn't mean that Ben set out with that as his intention. And your point relies on it being Ben's intention.




they're not guessing. mace says to yoda "maybe it's time to tell the senate that our power over the force is diminishing." it's implied that their power diminshing pre-dates the revelation of the sith. they're not guessing about that.
Uh, yeah, they are. They guess then Mace works out a plan of action (telling the Senate) based on that guess. Just because they work out a step 2 doesn't mean that step 1 wasn't a guess. It just means that they're proceeding along a line of conjecture just in case.



we have tarkin SAYING that vader is the last of the religion. sure, it's in the movie, so it's canon, but that doesn't mean that it's an accurate statement in the whole of the saga. not only has he got the wrong religion (jedi? no, sith!) but he's just plain wrong. ben kenobi is alive and well at this point. it's not that i don't trust him. he's wrong. so is ki-adi (i forgot his name before...) the sith haven't been extinct for a millenia. there's two of them that WE'VE seen!
Ok, I'll run with you on the Tarkin thing just for laughs. But as for Ki-Adi's statement, he's guessing that this bad guy is a Sith. The important thing though isn't what he thinks, it's what you think. You're assuming that there are two Force using Sith in TPM and AOTC, but the FACT is that you've only seen one at a time, Maul then Dooku. PROVE to me that Palpatine has used the Force in I, II, IV, and/or V.


it's also "CANON" that ben tells luke his father was murdered and betrayed by vader. doesn't make it fact! (except from a certain point of view... ;) ) the semantics being played off here are a little absurd. just because it's a line in the movie doesn't make it a fact in the world within the movie.
You're comparing apples and oranges trying to prove that your cherry-picked statements are true or not.






yes, that was conjecture. maybe he can't kill him, but they killed every other jedi besides himself and obi-wan. therefore, they didn't need to. balance acheived. two and two. remember, obi-wan is the only jedi so far we've seen with the power to stand up to and even kill a sith. and yoda fought dooku to a stand-still. they are arguably the most powerful jedi we've seen. perhaps that's why they're still alive. "well, they can't be destroyed, but we don't need to destroy them... we got everyone else. oh, and we took over the galaxy, too! fancy that..."
We'll have to wait until ROTS to see what happens in this department, but up to this point, it ONLY makes sense if Yoda and Ben escape without Vader's or Palp's knowledge.




yes, the "only two there are" thing is a sticky wicket. it's like in hot shots: part deux: "these monks are celibate, like their fathers and their fathers before them..."

we've already got cannonical evidence that two sith will discuss openly taking on a new apprentice. "if he could be turned, he would be a great asset." basically saying, hey this guy could help me take you out... oh, yeah, well he could help me take you out too! base survival of the fittest. so perhaps dooku was before maul, maybe not. we don't know yet. or, maybe palps is playing by his own rules: he is evil, after all...
If Dooku was before Maul and Palpatine was a Force user Sith as you claim, then there would be 3 at the same time. Not that I have any problem with that, but it disagrees with Episode I.




no, i'm picking and choosing what to believe based on the evidence given to me in the movie i'm watching. simple as that...
That's funny, so am I. ;) How come your conclusions are wrong. ;)






he had to learn it from somewhere. either by a sith lord, or by a sith holocron, or by the book of sith, or sam's teach yourself to be a sith lord in 24 hours. the most plausible? he was taught by a sith lord.
Right, he could have learned it from anywhere. Some old Sith texts laying around or whatever. We don't know. The point is that Episode II states clearly that the Sith have been extinct for over a millenia. And I've been asked to believe everything in the Prequels as Canon (and rationalize away any inconsistencies with the OT). So using that as a guide, we KNOW that the Sith have been extinct therefore Palpatine is either over a thousand years old or he found some old texts or something which taught him the theories behind the Sith use of the Force. He then used those theories to teach Maul, then Dooku, then Anakin, never once having to be a user himself.





so it's canon that ben is just a crazy old hermit, and that obi-wan died around the same time as luke's father. this is a pretty confusing movie if everyone is telling the truth here!
You're comparing apples and oranges again, but more importantly, you're ignoring context.



once again, you twist and contort the definition of "canon" to your own means. just because it is a line of the movie doesn't mean it is a statement of fact within the world of the movie. tarkin is WRONG. you've never watched a movie where a statement by a character is just plain wrong?

I'm not twisting the definition of canon, but you're bringing up examples out of context with the discussion.



ki-adi mundi is wrong as well. the sith aren't extinct. there's two of 'em hangin' out on coruscant.
Ki said that line in an incredulous way. He was saying, "wow, this would be something if it's true because the Sith have been gone for a long time." He's not saying that they don't exist right now or that they didn't come back, he was just saying that before now, the Sith were gone.

JediTricks
03-20-2005, 08:49 PM
Where? What part of the movie shows that Maul is detected ahead of time? The script says exactly otherwise, so point me in the direction of where the movie contradicts this.

OBI-WAN
I have a bad feeling about this.

QUI-GON
I don't sense anything.

OBI-WAN
It's not about the mission, Master, it's somethging...elsewhere...elusive.
Your response is 100% conjecture, in NO way are we led to believe that Obi-Wan is talking about Darth Maul, he could be talking about literally ANYTHING from Sidious to Jinn's death to Jar Jar's piloting skills. So, got anything else or was this it?


But as Raum pointed out, Palpatine never claims to have sensed anything at that point. He merely suggests that there is a disturbance in the Force. Again, being the consumate politician that he is, he can put 2 and 2 together with logic then spin that information to make it seem like he arrived at that conclusion via the Force. And Palps got that information about the disturbance how, Force-spies? Any way you look at it, Palps knew exactly when Luke started learning from Yoda somehow.


No, but there was a chain of command and at that point in the story, Vader had no ambitions to actually stage a coup. With the new timeline (thanks to Raum for illustrating it for us :)), Vader is nary a year or two from being the Anakin we all knew and loved. He is still steeped in a creepy kind of man/boy love for Palpatine who stroked that bipolar brat's ego. It isn't until Luke pops out of the woodwork unexpectedly that Vader's commitment to the "cause" (whatever that is...another discussion altogether) begins to falter. So Vader has no desire nor motivation to crush Tarkin's throat at that point in the story. But we see his attitude change right off the bat in ESB...soon after he has learned about and had time to think about the son he never knew he had.You're ascribing an awful lot of motive from your own personal opinion and expecting everybody else to subscribe to the same thing. Just because you inferred all that doesn't mean the rest of us did and certainly doesn't mean it's actually there.


Ohhh, I see what you're getting at. You're ASSUMING that Palps is telling the truth. The problem here is that you're COMBINING the false-scenario (yours) with my correct one which obviously would cause a major rift like the one you are describing. My conclusion (based on the story) tells us that Palpatine didn't really sense anything, therefore the timing of his phone call to Vader was coincidental for the benefit of the fictional story and a front to Vader just to keep Vader in line. Wrong, I'm saying your theory that "it's just the best-timed phone call ever" is not an acceptable claim even in the Star Wars universe because it is way too far-fetched. If you cannot create a much better reason that supports your theory than "best coincidence ever", you are still left with no foundation.

Rocketboy
03-20-2005, 08:51 PM
Kenobi's teacher: As shown in AOTC, Yoda does teach groups of Jedi children, which leads to the conclusion that he did teach Obi-Wan (which was proven in the EU, but that's another topic).
Palpatine's teacher: Probably dead. We may never know who it was or how he/she died.
Two Sith theory: Yes, they do say in the PT that there are always 2 Sith, but when your pet dies, do you run out and find a new one that day? He may have been baiting Dooku before Maul died (just as he's been baiting Anakin), but did not fully act on Dooku until Maul stood there while Obi-Wan sliced him. He may have been luring Dooku to the dark side well before Dooku left the Jedi (hell, that may the main reason why Dooku left). Plus, the Sith aren't above betraying each other (see Empire and Jedi).
Obi-Wan sensing "something elusive:" It wasn't the Sith he was sensing, it was Jar Jar!
Vader being the last of an "ancient religion:" That's only to be what Tarkin believes (and later shown to be wrong). And we don't know if he's referring to the Jedi or the Sith. As far as we know, and what has been seen thus far, nobody but Vader, Ben, and Yoda know about Palpatine being a Force user/Sith and lives to tell about it. As far as we know, the Imperials (and everyone else in the universe) may still think Palpatine is only the Emperor.
The dark side clouds everything: It is entirely posssible that's exactly why it's called the "dark side." Maybe it's not something Palpatine is using directly - maybe it's a sort of natural phenomenon associated with the dark side. Think of pouring a dark liquid (the dark side) into a clean water (the light side). The more dark liquid you pour in, the harder it is to see through the clear liquid - the ability to see clearly diminishes.
Why Ben hides on Tatooine: There is no reason for Vader to ever go back there. His mother is dead and he barely knows the Lars clan. Do you think Vader ever stopped by for the Life Day festivities?
Sith being extinct for a Millenia: Another opinion that was obviously wrong.

stillakid
03-20-2005, 11:39 PM
First of all, I gotta say that I'm impressed that I've inspired so much thought here. Usually people just call me names and run off to hide, unable to mount a worthy defense of their POV. But so many of you are actually putting real thought into this. Thanks! Misguided thought, but thinking nonetheless. It's a pleasant change. :)


Your response is 100% conjecture, in NO way are we led to believe that Obi-Wan is talking about Darth Maul, he could be talking about literally ANYTHING from Sidious to Jinn's death to Jar Jar's piloting skills. So, got anything else or was this it? True, Obi could have been referring to just about anything, from Dooku to Maul or maybe even Palpatine if he is indeed a Force user. But because all the other evidence suggests that Palpatine can't be a Force user, it is only logical to assume that Obi's statement is an attempt by Lucas to foreshadow the presence of Maul.


And Palps got that information about the disturbance how, Force-spies? Any way you look at it, Palps knew exactly when Luke started learning from Yoda somehow.

You're ascribing an awful lot of motive from your own personal opinion and expecting everybody else to subscribe to the same thing. Just because you inferred all that doesn't mean the rest of us did and certainly doesn't mean it's actually there.

Wrong, I'm saying your theory that "it's just the best-timed phone call ever" is not an acceptable claim even in the Star Wars universe because it is way too far-fetched. If you cannot create a much better reason that supports your theory than "best coincidence ever", you are still left with no foundation.



You're really stuck on this timing thing of Palpatine even though I've given you ample reason to explain it away. Look, Luke didn't do anything big enough to cause enough Force tremors that would reach Palpatine so far away. Luke's training on Dagobah had absolutely NOTHING at all to do with the timing of Palpatine's phone call to Vader. I'm not exactly sure why this is such a big deal for you. But because it is, I suppose we have to deal with it somehow. Let's look at it this way. ANH ends with Vader sensing an anonymous pilot using the Force to blow up the Death Star. ESB opens with Vader announcing to the audience that he is looking for "Skywalker." We have to assume that he has learned this information from spies or something in the interim. In terms of a fictional dramatic story, that's all we need to know at this point as the action ramps up to a cool battle scene. Once that peters off and we need another twist in the plot, the writer (Kasdan) invites the as yet unseen Emperor into the story. He confers with Vader that the son of Skywalker may become a danger to the both of them. It just happens to come at a time when Luke is training on Dagobah, but the timing of the scene has more to do with the action revolving around the Falcon chase. You're placing far too much emphasis on the coincidental timing of Luke's training with the phone call. Even IF Palpatine could really sense things via the Force, Luke's training just isn't doing anything large enough to send a massive enough "disturbance" (Palpatine's words) all the way to Coruscant.

stillakid
03-21-2005, 12:17 AM
Kenobi's teacher: As shown in AOTC, Yoda does teach groups of Jedi children, which leads to the conclusion that he did teach Obi-Wan (which was proven in the EU, but that's another topic).
As shown in the OT, Yoda is Ben's ONLY teacher. It's there for everyone to hear and see. Check it out! :)



Palpatine's teacher: Probably dead. We may never know who it was or how he/she died.
True. But the AOTC tells us that the Sith have been extinct for over a millenia, so unless you're ready to join me in saying that the Prequels are flawed, we have to assume that that statement was a fact which means that Palpatine was self-taught via books or something.


Two Sith theory: Yes, they do say in the PT that there are always 2 Sith, but when your pet dies, do you run out and find a new one that day? He may have been baiting Dooku before Maul died (just as he's been baiting Anakin), but did not fully act on Dooku until Maul stood there while Obi-Wan sliced him. He may have been luring Dooku to the dark side well before Dooku left the Jedi (hell, that may the main reason why Dooku left). Plus, the Sith aren't above betraying each other (see Empire and Jedi).
The two Sith thing is a mess. The only good explanation as to how this could work was in the fan-film, DUALITY.



Obi-Wan sensing "something elusive:" It wasn't the Sith he was sensing, it was Jar Jar!
Roger that. But Jar Jar wasn't elusive enough apparently.


Vader being the last of an "ancient religion:" That's only to be what Tarkin believes (and later shown to be wrong). And we don't know if he's referring to the Jedi or the Sith. As far as we know, and what has been seen thus far, nobody but Vader, Ben, and Yoda know about Palpatine being a Force user/Sith and lives to tell about it. As far as we know, the Imperials (and everyone else in the universe) may still think Palpatine is only the Emperor.
The Force is just a neutral thing to be used for good or evil just like a gun. It's likely that Tarkin didn't make the distinction between Sith and Jedi. All Force users were just members of that ancient religion and Vader was the last of them to the best of his knowledge. I say it that way because he had no reason, like anyone else, to believe that Yoda and Ben still lived on. But he knew the Emperor, most likely personally, so to believe that Tarkin didn't know if the Emperor was a Force user or not, seems highly unlikely.



The dark side clouds everything: It is entirely posssible that's exactly why it's called the "dark side." Maybe it's not something Palpatine is using directly - maybe it's a sort of natural phenomenon associated with the dark side. Think of pouring a dark liquid (the dark side) into a clean water (the light side). The more dark liquid you pour in, the harder it is to see through the clear liquid - the ability to see clearly diminishes.
Who can tell, but that statement is pure conjecture on your part as well as the Jedi. In fact, if the Sith have been gone for over a millenia, how would they know if what effects the Darkside would have? They were guessing that if Dooku were telling the truth that the only way a Sith could exist so close to them would be if their powers were diminished. But since they were guessing in the first place, that thing about the "clouds everything" is also pure conjecture.


Why Ben hides on Tatooine: There is no reason for Vader to ever go back there. His mother is dead and he barely knows the Lars clan. Do you think Vader ever stopped by for the Life Day festivities? No reason to go back? Seriously! The dude had a thing for his mom. He buried her there and made a silly vow. Lucas expects us to believe that a great portion of the reason Ani goes bad is because his mom is killed. So we're supposed to believe that Obi Wan decides to hide the potential savior of the galaxy in the exact place where Anakin buried his mom? Add that to the fact that this is a place that Obi had only barely visited. Why would he choose this place? What an imp! Out of a million worlds that Vader would most likely never visit, Obi picks the one that Vader knows about and is likely to return to? C'mon. That's really really weak.




Sith being extinct for a Millenia: Another opinion that was obviously wrong.
No. All they said was that the Sith had been gone for a long time. That doesn't preclude the possibility that they reemerged somehow. Ki doesn't say that they've been around all that time without Jedi knowledge. He is just expressing surprise that after all this time, they might have come back somehow. That wasn't an "opinion." It was a fact therefore it wasn't "wrong."

2-1B
03-21-2005, 01:16 AM
No, Ki's statement is not necessarily a fact. He believes that the Sith are extinct but does that make it fact ? stillakid, of all people, if we were in the Rancor Pit and somebody said "It's a fact that ___________ (insert religous comment of choice)", you would be quick to point out that it's not a fact but rather a belief. :D

And besides, if Episode 3 comes out and confirms that Palpatine had a Sith mentor ;) ;) ;) then that will be proof, prequel proof, that Ki-Ad-Mundi was wrong in his belief.

With the first 2 movies so far, it is indeed possible that Ki-Adi's statement is a fact because I certainly admit it is possible that the Sith re-emerged from extinction . . . but that might be cleared up in the next film. ;) ;) ;)

Von-El
03-21-2005, 01:50 AM
Stillakid said the ridiculous:


Only when it becomes necessary to save his own skin from his own creation (Vader) does he begin to dabble enough in it to protect himself (ROTJ). In the end, both his creation (Vader) and his feeble attempts to use the Force (ROTJ) do him in.

That is a load of crap.

Palpatine is a Sith Lord, plain and simple--he's the master manipulator of the chain of events that lead to his rise in power, politically. He didn't necessarily have to use the force to do it. He used his political savy to do it on his own. Perhaps those weak-minded denizens he used the force on if they were too stubborn tosee things his way.

The Jedi believed in their own innocent arrogance that the Sith were extinct. They had no reason to believe otherwise because they hadn't encountered them. As far as they knew, the Republic was enjoying thousands of years of peace.

The Sith are like Ku Klux Klansmen and Aryan Nation in that they hide behind the scenes while blending in with the public--making them undetectable to outright point out, yet, plotting to implement their vision of the world and universe. The Sith have technology and magic at their disposal to cloak their presence. The white supremacist group members cloak their presence by blending in with the crowd, not disclosing their beliefs unless they are hardcore and don't mind expressing themselves openly.

There is a rule of two for the Sith:

Master & Apprentice

Darth Sidious is Palpatine the master and Darth Vader is the apprentice.



In ROTS, Stillakid, Palpatine reveals who his own master was to Anakin. Palpatine/Sidious' master was Darth Plagueis the Wise. Plagueis also taught Palpatine ways inwhich to cheat death. Labyrinth of Evil also goes into some detail about Plagueis.


And let's backtrack to the OT now shall we?


When the first Star Wars movie was made, ANH--it was originally envisioned as a one time deal. The movie did very well. But then the concept for a follow-up came about and the second movie, ESB, released 3 years after the first. Three years later, we got ROTJ. When we first saw the Emperor, he was just the Emperor. The book called him Emperor Palpatine.

There was no Darth Sidious. There was Darth Vader, who was described in magazines and on action figure cardboards as the Darth Lord of the Sith.

In ESB, we saw that Obi-Wan learned from a very powerful teacher in the force and that was Yoda. By ROTJ, after the Emperor spoke of a disturbance in the force, hinting--revealing he was a force-wielder in ESB, Lucas wanted to show a master of the darkside as a counterpoint to Yoda.

There was time to bring in more characters and explore the force a little more with the sequels to ANH. We were introduced to Yoda. Obi-Wan said he was taught by Yoda.

Hell, there's a Jedi Academy at the Jedi Temple in which they train force wielders in their abilities when very young. We saw Yoda training the Younglings and given his age, he trained Obi-Wan even if Obi-Wan was NOT his immediate apprentice.


What you have to take into consideration, Stillakid, is that some of the Star Wars characters speak in circles or riddles.

In ANH, Obi-Wan says he took Anakin under his wing. In ROTJ, he says he thought he could train Anakin just as well as Yoda could, but that he was wrong.

In ANH, Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru give each other a strange look when Ben Kenobi's (Obi-Wan's) name is mentioned. Owen jumps the gun by calling him a silly old man.

Owen and Beru know about Luke's parentage. They also know a little about
Anakin even if their visit with him when they first met was brief. They have sworn to secrecry not to reveal anything to Luke. Obi-Wan wanted Luke on Tatooine to be raised by good people so that he will grow up to be a good natured person.

Owen and Beru in ANH; as well as Yoda in ESB and ROTJ; and Obi-Wan (from the "certain point of view" comment in ROTJ that Vader betrayed and murdered Luke's father) were being tactful in that they didn't want to speak
ill of Anakin to Luke. Yes, Anakin was a great starfighter pilot who fought in the clone wars and Luke was led to believe he was killed in war. Luke admired that aspect about his father and to have it revealed to him that Darth Vader is his father and the most feared and reviled being in the galaxy would turn a child and an adult's world apart.

How would any of us like it if it turned out our loved ones, regardless of their great qualities was engaged in illegal and immoral behavior like child porn and molestation? Or that their parents are murderers and were motivated by greed?

Qui-Gonn Jinn took an immediate liking to Anakin when Obi-Wan wasn't so hot on Anakin--he says, "why do I get the feeling we've picked up another pathetic lifeform?" in TPM. Maybe Obi-Wan was a little jealous that Qui-Gonn was very eager to train Anakin and upset that the trials were going to be implemented for him (Obi-Wan) though he said he was ready for them. Maybe Obi-Wan also accepted everything the Jedi Council stated because he had such high regard for them, but still there was a hint of jealousy there.

Again, Owen, Beru, Obi-Wan, and Yoda didn't want to tell Luke that his father became a very bad man throughout the galaxy. They were being very tactful about it.

That is why Owen conveniently said Ben Kenobi is just a silly old man. Beru and Owen knew there would come the day when Luke would have to meet his calling.

During the OT, there were no immediate plans for a prequel trilogy. The Emperor's name of Darth Sidious wasn't even considered. When he spoke of the force and training Luke in the ways of the Sith, he sends the royal guards out. When speaking to the galaxy, Palatine is a politician but when amongst Vader and Luke, he is a Sith.

Since the OT was created during a time in which sci-fi and action were made to cater to males, plus with Lucas having not yet decided on Leia being Luke's sister until ROTJ, Luke was going to be the hero because he is male. Leia was the woman who needed to be rescued but still she was a bold and strong woman who was very assertive and great in leadership. In the PT, we see Jedi females whereas if the PT were done in the 70s and 80s, the Jedi would be all men.

Leia was the back-up in case Luke failed. Now if Luke were raised on Alderaan, there was fear that being royalty may make him arrogant, leading to his path to the darkside.

Von-El
03-21-2005, 02:09 AM
And by the way, Tarkin mistakenly believed Darth Vader was the last of the force-wielders or Jedi.

With the belief that the Sith were extinct for a millenia as stated by the Jedi in the prequels 30 years prior to the OT, how many beings in the galaxy actually know what a Sith Lord is in the OT? Did Tarkin even know what a Sith Lord was? If he did and believed the Sith were evil, would he have taken so kindly to Vader as he had? What does he believe Vader is, a Jedi or a Sith? The Jedi were villified as corrupt, outlawed, and believed killed off.

At least the Jedi were hailed as heroes at one point.

Or id Darth Vader only viewed as a force-wielder studying the ancient force religions and the only one to be trusted in the galaxy?

While Tarkin was said to be an evil and greedy man, himself, does he consider himself evil and the Empire as such? Seriously, some people are mad and do terrible things, but don't consider themselves as evil as they rationalize it in their minds.

The people of the galaxy knew of Jedi if they were around 20-30+ years prior. But seriously, how many actually knew anything about Sith Lords?


Oh, before I forget:

In ANH when Darth Vader in flying his tie-fighter, he comes into close proximity with Luke and detects that the force is strong with the pilot, though he doesn't know his identity. Vader says this out loud to himself.

Vader learns the identity of this force-sensitive pilot who destroyed the Death Star.

Perhaps when he goes back to the Emperor, he tells him that the one who destroyed the Death Star was very strong in the force. They both seek out the identity of this rebel pilot.

According to the EU comics, the Emperor learned the pilot's identity before Vader did.

darthvyn
03-21-2005, 07:53 AM
hey, von-el. i'm very impressed with your posts, but i might have to stop reading your responses all together if you implant any spoilers in there... i don't know if you were making that stuff up about palpatine's master, but if you weren't this is the non-spoiler forum. please refrain from divulging any plot points here.

darthvyn
03-21-2005, 08:51 AM
That's Vader's take on it. It doesn't mean that Ben set out with that as his intention. And your point relies on it being Ben's intention.

you've all but proven this to be true. your contention is that a force-user will only sense the ripples in the force when another force-user is USING THE FORCE! why would ben use the force if not to bait vader? he's in a huge freakin' imperial battle station! unless you're saying that a force-user always creates ripples, like some kind of radio tower. wouldn't it make more sense then, that someone who is NOT trained (just has potential...) would send out ripples, too? i think it's only when they're USING the force. if someone is a kung-fu master, they're not always using kung-fu. only when they need it. just like the force. ripples only form on the surface of a pond when you throw a rock.



Uh, yeah, they are. They guess then Mace works out a plan of action (telling the Senate) based on that guess. Just because they work out a step 2 doesn't mean that step 1 wasn't a guess. It just means that they're proceeding along a line of conjecture just in case.

i don't remember exactly what they say, but it's something like "if the sith could get past us, it must be worse that we though." kind of meaning that their powers are already diminished and this drives the point home.




Ok, I'll run with you on the Tarkin thing just for laughs. But as for Ki-Adi's statement, he's guessing that this bad guy is a Sith. The important thing though isn't what he thinks, it's what you think. You're assuming that there are two Force using Sith in TPM and AOTC, but the FACT is that you've only seen one at a time, Maul then Dooku. PROVE to me that Palpatine has used the Force in I, II, IV, and/or V.


he's not guessing it's a sith. qui-gon is. when the idea is brought up, ki-adi's statement is incredulous, not just "hey, that's pretty crazy, we thought they were extinct." it's basically, "that's impossible! the sith have been extinct for over a millenia!" he outright won't believe it even when it's staring him in the face... hmmmm..... sounds familiar....



You're comparing apples and oranges trying to prove that your cherry-picked statements are true or not.


naw, i'm just comparing the apples i'm selling to the apples you're selling. mine are red delicious. as stated previously, i'm taking all movie quotes with a grain of salt. if there is nothing within the context of the story to disprove what the characters are saying, then i believe what the characters are saying. if i see evidence that they are wrong, then i believe they are wrong. vader is not the last of their religion, because we've seen ben kenobi, and the sith are not extinct, because we've seen sidious and maul and dooku. the dodo bird is extinct. but if we found three of them tomorrow, wouldn't that mean they're not?



We'll have to wait until ROTS to see what happens in this department, but up to this point, it ONLY makes sense if Yoda and Ben escape without Vader's or Palp's knowledge.

i agree it's completely conjecture here.



If Dooku was before Maul and Palpatine was a Force user Sith as you claim, then there would be 3 at the same time. Not that I have any problem with that, but it disagrees with Episode I.

there can only be two sith. dark force users can be in abundance, but they don't get to be called sith. they are reared as new sith apprentices, and when the time is right, they will team up with one of the sith to take out the other one. and the cycle repeats itself.




That's funny, so am I. ;) How come your conclusions are wrong. ;)


heh. i was thinking the same thing...



Right, he could have learned it from anywhere. Some old Sith texts laying around or whatever. We don't know. The point is that Episode II states clearly that the Sith have been extinct for over a millenia. And I've been asked to believe everything in the Prequels as Canon (and rationalize away any inconsistencies with the OT). So using that as a guide, we KNOW that the Sith have been extinct therefore Palpatine is either over a thousand years old or he found some old texts or something which taught him the theories behind the Sith use of the Force. He then used those theories to teach Maul, then Dooku, then Anakin, never once having to be a user himself.

or your only cannonical reference, ki-adi mundi, is wrong, and the knowledge of the sith teachings has been passed down from generation to generation of sith in secret. and why would palpatine teach all of this and not learn it himself if he was force-sensitive? doesn't make sense for an ego-maniac bent on galactic domination...



You're comparing apples and oranges again, but more importantly, you're ignoring context.


what context am i ignoring?



I'm not twisting the definition of canon, but you're bringing up examples out of context with the discussion.


you ARE twisting the definition of "canon." you are using "canon" and "true" as the same thing, and they are not.

can∑on1 Audio pronunciation of "canon" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (knn)
n.

1. An ecclesiastical law or code of laws established by a church council.
2. A secular law, rule, or code of law.
3.
a. An established principle: the canons of polite society.
b. A basis for judgment; a standard or criterion.
4. The books of the Bible officially accepted as Holy Scripture.
5.
a. A group of literary works that are generally accepted as representing a field: ďthe durable canon of American short fictionĒ (William Styron).
b. The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic: the entire Shakespeare canon.
6. Canon The part of the Mass beginning after the Preface and Sanctus and ending just before the Lord's Prayer.
7. The calendar of saints accepted by the Roman Catholic Church.
8. Music. A composition or passage in which a melody is imitated by one or more voices at fixed intervals of pitch and time.

just because it is a part of the accepted lore in star wars doesn't make it a statment of fact within the story. characters lie, characters are wrong, characters are lied to and believe the lie. here, tarkin is wrong but the statement is canonical. ki-adi mundi is wrong, but the statment is canonical.


oh, the context of the discussion. i think the context in the movie is just as important. i'm giving examples of other lines, from the OT that are just plain false. sure, those statements are false for a reason, to not reveal vader's true identity. but perhaps the "extinct for a millenia" line has a reason, too. maybe to show how arrogant the jedi have become, so arrogant that the sith could simply slip right by them and take over the galaxy. isn't that your whole thing from the start? how an arrogant and complacent public can let the most evil man ever into power? i think this holds true...



Ki said that line in an incredulous way. He was saying, "wow, this would be something if it's true because the Sith have been gone for a long time." He's not saying that they don't exist right now or that they didn't come back, he was just saying that before now, the Sith were gone.

incredulous doesn't mean "wow that would be something." it means "that's impossible."


incredulous

adj : not disposed or willing to believe; unbelieving

1. Skeptical; disbelieving: incredulous of stories about flying saucers.
2. Expressive of disbelief: an incredulous stare.

as stated above, he's not just saying "holy crap, that sure would be sumthin'" he's saying "the sith have been extinct for a millenia" incredulously. he does not believe it for a second. and he's dead wrong.


First of all, I gotta say that I'm impressed that I've inspired so much thought here. Usually people just call me names and run off to hide, unable to mount a worthy defense of their POV. But so many of you are actually putting real thought into this. Thanks! Misguided thought, but thinking nonetheless. It's a pleasant change. :)

don't be too impressed with this technological terror you've created.



True, Obi could have been referring to just about anything, from Dooku to Maul or maybe even Palpatine if he is indeed a Force user. But because all the other evidence suggests that Palpatine can't be a Force user, it is only logical to assume that Obi's statement is an attempt by Lucas to foreshadow the presence of Maul.

no evidence suggests that palpatine CAN'T be a force user. and the elusive feeling obi-wan is sensing could in fact be a rare occasion where palpatine had to use the force. but qui-gon tells him to not center on his anxiety. he teaches anakin to think, not feel. these are the opposite of the teachings of ben and yoda to luke. perhaps they have learned another thing or two in dealing with the sith. that you HAVE to feel, not think when dealing with them. otherwise you get too complacent and arrogant?



The Force is just a neutral thing to be used for good or evil just like a gun. It's likely that Tarkin didn't make the distinction between Sith and Jedi. All Force users were just members of that ancient religion and Vader was the last of them to the best of his knowledge. I say it that way because he had no reason, like anyone else, to believe that Yoda and Ben still lived on. But he knew the Emperor, most likely personally, so to believe that Tarkin didn't know if the Emperor was a Force user or not, seems highly unlikely.

do you know everything about YOUR boss? would palpatine reveal his true nature to his underlings? no, for exactly your reasons. why would anyone follow this guy if they REALLY knew what was going on. THAT'S the phantom menace here.

stillakid
03-21-2005, 08:54 AM
No, Ki's statement is not necessarily a fact. He believes that the Sith are extinct but does that make it fact ? stillakid, of all people, if we were in the Rancor Pit and somebody said "It's a fact that ___________ (insert religous comment of choice)", you would be quick to point out that it's not a fact but rather a belief. :D
Why the mass rejection of Ki's statement? :confused: I don't understand at all? There in NOTHING in the saga that contradicts what he said. :confused:


And besides, if Episode 3 comes out and confirms that Palpatine had a Sith mentor ;) ;) ;) then that will be proof, prequel proof, that Ki-Ad-Mundi was wrong in his belief.
That's a BIG IF.


With the first 2 movies so far, it is indeed possible that Ki-Adi's statement is a fact because I certainly admit it is possible that the Sith re-emerged from extinction . . . but that might be cleared up in the next film. ;) ;) ;)
That's what I've been suggesting all along, that Palpatine must have found some books or something which explained the theory behind the Darkside. He then made designs on taking over the galaxy. But knowing that actually using the Force himself would alert the Jedi to his presence, Palpatine sets about to train Maul and/or Dooku to do the muscle work for him. It only makes complete sense, that's all. :D

stillakid
03-21-2005, 09:15 AM
Stillakid said the ridiculous:



That is a load of crap.
Plain and simple, it's not. Calm down there chief. :rolleyes: You got stock in the Emperor or something? :sur:

However, no, you're wrong. According to all the onscreen proof in I, II, IV, V, and VI, Palpatine simply can't be a Force user until sometime in VI. And as I've said countless times, ROTS will most likely come along and contradict that established continuity thus continuing the pattern of the Prequels contradicting established continuity. So ironically, if there is one thing that the Prequels keep in continuity, it's in betraying continuity. :crazed:


Palpatine is a Sith Lord, plain and simple--he's the master manipulator of the chain of events that lead to his rise in power, politically. He didn't necessarily have to use the force to do it. He used his political savy to do it on his own. Perhaps those weak-minded denizens he used the force on if they were too stubborn tosee things his way.
So you say. Conjecture based on your wishes.


The Jedi believed in their own innocent arrogance that the Sith were extinct. They had no reason to believe otherwise because they hadn't encountered them. As far as they knew, the Republic was enjoying thousands of years of peace.
Conjecture. The script says that they were extinct and you have no basis for believing that to be false.


The Sith are like Ku Klux Klansmen and Aryan Nation in that they hide behind the scenes while blending in with the public--making them undetectable to outright point out, yet, plotting to implement their vision of the world and universe.
Who's making crap up now? :sur:



The Sith have technology and magic at their disposal to cloak their presence. The white supremacist group members cloak their presence by blending in with the crowd, not disclosing their beliefs unless they are hardcore and don't mind expressing themselves openly.
Huh?! Says who? Come back down from your EU world and rejoin the movies.



There is a rule of two for the Sith:

Master & Apprentice

Darth Sidious is Palpatine the master and Darth Vader is the apprentice.
After Palpatine doesn't have to hide anymore. Throughout the Prequels anyway, Palpatine can't be and isn't a Force user, ROTS notwithstanding.




In ROTS, Stillakid, Palpatine reveals who his own master was to Anakin. Palpatine/Sidious' master was Darth Plagueis the Wise. Plagueis also taught Palpatine ways inwhich to cheat death. Labyrinth of Evil also goes into some detail about Plagueis..
And you prove that you're so wound up in EU that you can no longer separate CANON from non.




Hell, there's a Jedi Academy at the Jedi Temple in which they train force wielders in their abilities when very young. We saw Yoda training the Younglings and given his age, he trained Obi-Wan even if Obi-Wan was NOT his immediate apprentice.
The OT says more than a few times that Yoda was Obi Wan's only teacher. The Prequels contradict this as you've pointed out for me. Thanks. :D



What you have to take into consideration, Stillakid, is that some of the Star Wars characters speak in circles or riddles.

In ANH, Obi-Wan says he took Anakin under his wing. In ROTJ, he says he thought he could train Anakin just as well as Yoda could, but that he was wrong.

In ANH, Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru give each other a strange look when Ben Kenobi's (Obi-Wan's) name is mentioned. Owen jumps the gun by calling him a silly old man.

Owen and Beru know about Luke's parentage. They also know a little about
Anakin even if their visit with him when they first met was brief. They have sworn to secrecry not to reveal anything to Luke. Obi-Wan wanted Luke on Tatooine to be raised by good people so that he will grow up to be a good natured person.

Owen and Beru in ANH; as well as Yoda in ESB and ROTJ; and Obi-Wan (from the "certain point of view" comment in ROTJ that Vader betrayed and murdered Luke's father) were being tactful in that they didn't want to speak
ill of Anakin to Luke. Yes, Anakin was a great starfighter pilot who fought in the clone wars and Luke was led to believe he was killed in war. Luke admired that aspect about his father and to have it revealed to him that Darth Vader is his father and the most feared and reviled being in the galaxy would turn a child and an adult's world apart.

How would any of us like it if it turned out our loved ones, regardless of their great qualities was engaged in illegal and immoral behavior like child porn and molestation? Or that their parents are murderers and were motivated by greed?

Qui-Gonn Jinn took an immediate liking to Anakin when Obi-Wan wasn't so hot on Anakin--he says, "why do I get the feeling we've picked up another pathetic lifeform?" in TPM. Maybe Obi-Wan was a little jealous that Qui-Gonn was very eager to train Anakin and upset that the trials were going to be implemented for him (Obi-Wan) though he said he was ready for them. Maybe Obi-Wan also accepted everything the Jedi Council stated because he had such high regard for them, but still there was a hint of jealousy there.

Again, Owen, Beru, Obi-Wan, and Yoda didn't want to tell Luke that his father became a very bad man throughout the galaxy. They were being very tactful about it.

That is why Owen conveniently said Ben Kenobi is just a silly old man. Beru and Owen knew there would come the day when Luke would have to meet his calling.
Yeah, I get the double-meanings and such. Your point would be?


During the OT, there were no immediate plans for a prequel trilogy. The Emperor's name of Darth Sidious wasn't even considered. When he spoke of the force and training Luke in the ways of the Sith, he sends the royal guards out. When speaking to the galaxy, Palatine is a politician but when amongst Vader and Luke, he is a Sith.
That's COMPLETE conjecture on your part. You have no idea how the rest of the population sees Palpatine. Plus, you're just talking about the period in ROTJ when I've already said Palps was a fledgling Force user. How 'bout disproving my assertion as it applies to Episodes I, II, IV, and V.



Since the OT was created during a time in which sci-fi and action were made to cater to males, plus with Lucas having not yet decided on Leia being Luke's sister until ROTJ, Luke was going to be the hero because he is male. Leia was the woman who needed to be rescued but still she was a bold and strong woman who was very assertive and great in leadership. In the PT, we see Jedi females whereas if the PT were done in the 70s and 80s, the Jedi would be all men.

Leia was the back-up in case Luke failed. Now if Luke were raised on Alderaan, there was fear that being royalty may make him arrogant, leading to his path to the darkside.
More EU conjecture. Do you have any real arguments to make? You speak passionately, yet do not persuade. (2 points to anyone knowing that reference. :) )

stillakid
03-21-2005, 09:21 AM
And by the way, Tarkin mistakenly believed Darth Vader was the last of the force-wielders or Jedi.

With the belief that the Sith were extinct for a millenia as stated by the Jedi in the prequels 30 years prior to the OT, how many beings in the galaxy actually know what a Sith Lord is in the OT? Did Tarkin even know what a Sith Lord was? If he did and believed the Sith were evil, would he have taken so kindly to Vader as he had? What does he believe Vader is, a Jedi or a Sith? The Jedi were villified as corrupt, outlawed, and believed killed off.

At least the Jedi were hailed as heroes at one point.

Or id Darth Vader only viewed as a force-wielder studying the ancient force religions and the only one to be trusted in the galaxy?

While Tarkin was said to be an evil and greedy man, himself, does he consider himself evil and the Empire as such? Seriously, some people are mad and do terrible things, but don't consider themselves as evil as they rationalize it in their minds.

The people of the galaxy knew of Jedi if they were around 20-30+ years prior. But seriously, how many actually knew anything about Sith Lords?
Inconsequential. I'm just talking about Force use in general. Whether it is a Sith or a Jedi makes no difference to my argument nor, I might add, to Tarkin. All he said was the Vader was the last of "their religion" in reference to Obi Wan Kenobi, a Jedi. Thereby proving that Tarkin didn't differentiate between Jedi and Sith.



Oh, before I forget:

In ANH when Darth Vader in flying his tie-fighter, he comes into close proximity with Luke and detects that the force is strong with the pilot, though he doesn't know his identity. Vader says this out loud to himself.

Vader learns the identity of this force-sensitive pilot who destroyed the Death Star.

Perhaps when he goes back to the Emperor, he tells him that the one who destroyed the Death Star was very strong in the force. They both seek out the identity of this rebel pilot.

According to the EU comics, the Emperor learned the pilot's identity before Vader did.
This is what I've said all along, that Vader first sensed Luke in the trench, then went out to find out (via spies) who that guy was. Palpatine probably got the same memo.

EU again. :rolleyes:

Mr. JabbaJohnL
03-21-2005, 12:07 PM
Why the mass rejection of Ki's statement? I don't understand at all? There in NOTHING in the saga that contradicts what he said.

QUI-GON : ...my only conclusion can be that it was a Sith Lord.
MACE WINDU : A Sith Lord?!?
KI-ADI : Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millenium.
YODA : The very Republic is threatened, if involved the Sith are.
MACE WINDU : I do not believe they could have returned without us knowing.
YODA : Hard to see, the dark side is. Discover who this assassin is, we
must.

Er, I think the whole thing about the mystery of the Sith in TPM is that the Jedi thought they'd been dead for a thousand years, then all of a sudden some dude with a red lightsaber pops up and tries to kill Qui-Gon. Obviously, he's a Sith, which Qui-Gon believes but the other Jedi don't. If Mace was wrong about the Sith not being able to return without them sensing it, then what's to say Ki-Adi-Mundi wasn't wrong as well? The real explanation is that the Sith had slowly been tryng to gain power, but it took Sidious to finally have the balls to do anything about it. The Sith had been there all along, unbeknownst to the Jedi. I assume it was their intention to kill Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and the Queen, and everyone would think it was just some bounty hunter or assassin. They didn't count on Qui-Gon Jinn escaping and telling everyone about the Sith.

And about Obi-Wan saying Yoda was his only master - I know he talks about Yoda teaching him, but he doesn't point-blank say that no other Jedi did. And why should anyone trust the word of Obi-Wan? I think his whole "certain point of view" thing should've told anyone that he's a guy who occasionally bends the truth. But that's for a different discussion.

Rocketboy
03-21-2005, 02:08 PM
As shown in the OT, Yoda is Ben's ONLY teacher. It's there for everyone to hear and see. Check it out! :)
Because Ben said the word "the?"
I've said "My teacher in high school said..." - doesn't mean that was my only teacher.


True. But the AOTC tells us that the Sith have been extinct for over a millenia, so unless you're ready to join me in saying that the Prequels are flawed, we have to assume that that statement was a fact which means that Palpatine was self-taught via books or something.Ki Adi Mundi tells us what he believes, which is obviously (Maul and Sidious) not reality. As for Palps being self-taught - where again do they mention Sith books (or whatever) in the movies? I don't seem to recall them being mentioned once in the saga.


The two Sith thing is a mess. The only good explanation as to how this could work was in the fan-film, DUALITY. That's not even EU, so it has zero credibility in this debate.


The Force is just a neutral thing to be used for good or evil just like a gun. It's likely that Tarkin didn't make the distinction between Sith and Jedi. All Force users were just members of that ancient religion and Vader was the last of them to the best of his knowledge. I say it that way because he had no reason, like anyone else, to believe that Yoda and Ben still lived on. But he knew the Emperor, most likely personally, so to believe that Tarkin didn't know if the Emperor was a Force user or not, seems highly unlikely.Again, it was Tarkin's belief which is proven to be untrue. And why would he call Vader "the last..." if he knew that Palps was a Force user? He wouldn't, because it appears that he doesn't know.
Plus, you contradict yourself by saying Tarkin thinks Vader is the last and he probably knows that Palps in a Force user.


Who can tell, but that statement is pure conjecture on your part as well as the Jedi. In fact, if the Sith have been gone for over a millenia, how would they know if what effects the Darkside would have? They were guessing that if Dooku were telling the truth that the only way a Sith could exist so close to them would be if their powers were diminished. But since they were guessing in the first place, that thing about the "clouds everything" is also pure conjecture. There are dark Jedi which aren't Sith, but it's EU, so it may not apply to this argument.


No reason to go back? Seriously! The dude had a thing for his mom. He buried her there and made a silly vow. Lucas expects us to believe that a great portion of the reason Ani goes bad is because his mom is killed. So we're supposed to believe that Obi Wan decides to hide the potential savior of the galaxy in the exact place where Anakin buried his mom? Add that to the fact that this is a place that Obi had only barely visited. Why would he choose this place? What an imp! Out of a million worlds that Vader would most likely never visit, Obi picks the one that Vader knows about and is likely to return to? C'mon. That's really really weak.Vader: "That name no longer has any meaning to me." Looks as if Vader renounced all association with Anakin Skywalker. No reason for him to go back to Tatooine. If he did want to go back, why not stop when the Imperials attacked the Tantive in ANH?


No. All they said was that the Sith had been gone for a long time. That doesn't preclude the possibility that they reemerged somehow. Ki doesn't say that they've been around all that time without Jedi knowledge. He is just expressing surprise that after all this time, they might have come back somehow. That wasn't an "opinion." It was a fact therefore it wasn't "wrong."It was what he believed to be fact.

stillakid
03-21-2005, 08:50 PM
QUI-GON : ...my only conclusion can be that it was a Sith Lord.
MACE WINDU : A Sith Lord?!?
KI-ADI : Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millenium.
YODA : The very Republic is threatened, if involved the Sith are.
MACE WINDU : I do not believe they could have returned without us knowing.
YODA : Hard to see, the dark side is. Discover who this assassin is, we
must.

Er, I think the whole thing about the mystery of the Sith in TPM is that the Jedi thought they'd been dead for a thousand years, then all of a sudden some dude with a red lightsaber pops up and tries to kill Qui-Gon. Obviously, he's a Sith, which Qui-Gon believes but the other Jedi don't. If Mace was wrong about the Sith not being able to return without them sensing it, then what's to say Ki-Adi-Mundi wasn't wrong as well?
:confused: Once again, the surprise is that they returned apparently. There is still NOTHING which calls into doubt the idea that they have been gone for over a millenia. Which means that all this below falls under conjecture:


The real explanation is that the Sith had slowly been tryng to gain power, but it took Sidious to finally have the balls to do anything about it. The Sith had been there all along, unbeknownst to the Jedi. I assume it was their intention to kill Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and the Queen, and everyone would think it was just some bounty hunter or assassin. They didn't count on Qui-Gon Jinn escaping and telling everyone about the Sith.


And about Obi-Wan saying Yoda was his only master - I know he talks about Yoda teaching him, but he doesn't point-blank say that no other Jedi did. And why should anyone trust the word of Obi-Wan? I think his whole "certain point of view" thing should've told anyone that he's a guy who occasionally bends the truth. But that's for a different discussion.

Right, it is for a different discussion which is why I said that there are a variety of other threads here at SSG to look up. But I'll try to summarize the points that prove my statement very very quickly and put an end to this nonsense.


Because Ben said the word "the?"
I've said "My teacher in high school said..." - doesn't mean that was my only teacher.
And it looks like you didn't do your homework then or now. I suggested that you go look up the other threads...

But here are the highlights to the argument:

1) "You will go to the Dagobah system. You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me. - Spirit Ben Kenobi, ESB.

He didn't say, You will learn from Yoda, a Jedi who instructed me, which is what you'd say if you had multiple teachers.

2)

YODA
Ready, are you? What know you of ready? For eight hundred years
have I trained Jedi. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be
trained! A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious
mind. (to the invisible Ben, indicating Luke) This one a long time
have I watched. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was
doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi craves not these
things. (turning to Luke) You are reckless!

Luke looks down. He knows it is true.

BEN'S VOICE
So was I, if you'll remember.

The point here being that Yoda proclaims that Luke is too old and reckless to begin the training. Spirit Ben pipes in and draws a direct comparison between Luke now and the Obi Wan he used to be. The implication being, of course, that Yoda taught Ben when he was a similar age to Luke.

The Prequel comparison to make to Luke is of course Hayd-akin, who is about the same age as Luke in the OT. Yet Yoda isn't training kids that age. Clearly, this kindergarten is an eleventh-hour add-on attempt to bandaid the situation created when Lucas haphazardly shoehorned the useless character of Qui Gonn into the story.

3.

BEN
When I first knew him, your father was
already a great pilot. But I was amazed how
strongly the Force was with him. I took it
upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I
thought that I could instruct him just as
well as Yoda. I was wrong.

The point here is that Ben is saying that his training from Yoda went beyond the kindergarten that we saw in AOTC. More than that, this passage heavily implies if not outright states that there is just one teacher in a Jedi's education. If we apply the new continuity of the Prequels to this statement above, we are to believe that Anakin turned to the darkside because Obi Wan couldn't teach Anakin how to defend himself against little balls of pain. Highly unlikely. But if that's what you want to believe.... :rolleyes:

And because you were too lazy to go look this stuff for yourselves, I did your homework for you. Here are just two. There are a few more to look for. You can thank me later. :D

http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=7524&highlight=Spirit+Ben

http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=6498&page=1&pp=40&highlight=Spirit+Ben


Ki Adi Mundi tells us what he believes, which is obviously (Maul and Sidious) not reality. As for Palps being self-taught - where again do they mention Sith books (or whatever) in the movies? I don't seem to recall them being mentioned once in the saga.
You too are attributing something to Ki that he didn't say or mean. All he says is that the Sith have been gone for a long time. That doesn't negate the concept that they have returned. Ki's statement isn't his belief...it's a fact. Having Maul in this story at this time doesn't negate the idea that the Sith have been gone previous to him.

As for Palps being self-taught, I was guessing based on the facts that the Sith have been gone for over a millenia. Assuming that is true, then Palpatine had to have taught himself somehow because there were no bad guys around to teach him. It doesn't have to be a line in the script to figure it out. It's called literary comprehension skills.


That's not even EU, so it has zero credibility in this debate.
And that response to my statement about Duality tells me that you aren't taking the time to actually read and comprehend what I wrote down. How can I trust then that you're taking the time to truly understand the information given in 10 hours of the Saga?


Again, it was Tarkin's belief which is proven to be untrue. And why would he call Vader "the last..." if he knew that Palps was a Force user?
He calls Vader the last because he had no idea about Ben, has no idea that Yoda is still out there, and he has no reason to suspect that Palpatine is/was a Jedi/Sith. Why? Because Palpatine never uses the Force. He's an ugly SOB, but that doesn't mean he's a Force user.


He wouldn't, because it appears that he doesn't know.
Plus, you contradict yourself by saying Tarkin thinks Vader is the last and he probably knows that Palps in a Force user.
Perhaps I misspoke back there for a second. The point is what you just said: Tarkin doesn't know much. But what he does know is that he never saw Palpatine use the Force or else he wouldn't have said what he did. Does this alone prove that Palpatine isn't a Force user? Of course not, but there is enough other supporting evidence that I've pointed out that tells us that this assertion is true.


Vader: "That name no longer has any meaning to me." Looks as if Vader renounced all association with Anakin Skywalker. No reason for him to go back to Tatooine.
You've tied two ideas together that don't necessarily equate. Just because he renounces his name doesn't mean that he left all feelings for his mother. In fact, if that's what you're proposing, you're introducing a larger problem than the one I'm suggesting because AOTC sets Anakin's fall up as being caused in part by the death of Shmi. If that death wasn't that important to him as you suggest, then his turn to the darkside must be from some other cause which calls into doubt the credibility of AOTC. So which is it?



If he did want to go back, why not stop when the Imperials attacked the Tantive in ANH?
:confused: Nobody ever said that he would go back. The point is that he could return. And Obi Wan should recognize at least the possibility and be smart enough to not hide the potential savior of the galaxy in the one place where Anakin/Vader is likely to return to (to visit his mother's grave). Why take that chance when you wouldn't have to?





And for continued evidence to support my contention, try this on for size:


VADER
A small Rebel Force has landed on Endor. My son is with them.

THE EMPEROR
Are you sure?

VADER
I've felt him, my master.

THE EMPEROR
Strange that I have not.

Really?! Isn't that interesting. All this time, Palpatine has been busy boasting about what he can foresee and sense and the minute Vader comes to him with something that he has felt, Palpatine hasn't. Weird, huh? Why do you suppose that would be, eh? A hiccup in his Midichlorian supply maybe? Some other dark Jedi was jamming his signals perhaps? Or maybe...Palpatine was a liar who couldn't really do any of that stuff in the first place, eh? And the moment he realizes that Vader might really be confused by this whole loyalty thing is when Palpatine decides he'd better learn something to defend himself. Just when it looks like Luke is ready to take out his daddy, he refuses. Uh oh! :eek: What's an evil Force novice to do? Don't have a lightsaber and couldn't take on the kid even if he did. Better hit him with some lightning bolts. It's kinda hard to do and even harder to control, but the kid isn't expecting it. A hah! It's working. I'm gonna kill that littl...wha!? What's going on? Who just grabbed me from behind? I can't stop this stuff...Look out, I'm gonna faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llll.........

Rocketboy
03-21-2005, 09:52 PM
I just skimmed most of that because you obviously didn't read my post.

I'm through wasting my time with this debate - You will never see what is obviously there because you have some sort of bizzare, deep loathing for the Prequels.

darthvyn
03-21-2005, 10:18 PM
2)

YODA
Ready, are you? What know you of ready? For eight hundred years
have I trained Jedi. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be
trained! A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious
mind. (to the invisible Ben, indicating Luke) This one a long time
have I watched. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was
doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi craves not these
things. (turning to Luke) You are reckless!

Luke looks down. He knows it is true.

BEN'S VOICE
So was I, if you'll remember.

The point here being that Yoda proclaims that Luke is too old and reckless to begin the training. Spirit Ben pipes in and draws a direct comparison between Luke now and the Obi Wan he used to be. The implication being, of course, that Yoda taught Ben when he was a similar age to Luke.



that's not nearly the comparison. the only implication here is that ben was reckless, as well.

JediTricks
03-21-2005, 11:40 PM
True, Obi could have been referring to just about anything, from Dooku to Maul or maybe even Palpatine if he is indeed a Force user. But because all the other evidence suggests that Palpatine can't be a Force user, it is only logical to assume that Obi's statement is an attempt by Lucas to foreshadow the presence of Maul.You are out of your gourd, it is not "only logical" to make that assumption. Obi-Wan doesn't say he senses another person, he says he has a bad feeling about "this", and when pressed says it's elsewhere and elusive. For all we know, Obi-Wan is talking about the future, it is after all difficult to see and Qui-Gon tells him to be concentrating on the here-and-now, and the future as we later find out includes Qui-Gon's death.


You're really stuck on this timing thing of Palpatine even though I've given you ample reason to explain it away. You haven't given ample reason to explain it away, you have given only the most implausible, unbelieveable, illogical reason in an attempt to cover up a hole in your theory. And that's why I keep focusing on it, it's a deadly blow to your theory, the Emperor knows about Luke meeting with Yoda and taking his steps into becoming a full Jedi, and that either shows the Emp has a spy there telling him about this or he sensed it through the Force.


Look, Luke didn't do anything big enough to cause enough Force tremors that would reach Palpatine so far away. Luke's training on Dagobah had absolutely NOTHING at all to do with the timing of Palpatine's phone call to Vader. I'm not exactly sure why this is such a big deal for you. But because it is, I suppose we have to deal with it somehow. Let's look at it this way. ANH ends with Vader sensing an anonymous pilot using the Force to blow up the Death Star. ESB opens with Vader announcing to the audience that he is looking for "Skywalker." We have to assume that he has learned this information from spies or something in the interim. In terms of a fictional dramatic story, that's all we need to know at this point as the action ramps up to a cool battle scene. Once that peters off and we need another twist in the plot, the writer (Kasdan) invites the as yet unseen Emperor into the story. He confers with Vader that the son of Skywalker may become a danger to the both of them. It just happens to come at a time when Luke is training on Dagobah, but the timing of the scene has more to do with the action revolving around the Falcon chase. You're placing far too much emphasis on the coincidental timing of Luke's training with the phone call. Even IF Palpatine could really sense things via the Force, Luke's training just isn't doing anything large enough to send a massive enough "disturbance" (Palpatine's words) all the way to Coruscant.That's a hell of an assumption, that the disturbance in the Force is distance-sensitive, yet you have absolutely nothing to back that up, you are just guessing. So what other Force-disturbing actions could have set both Emp and Vader off to comment on this, Luke using the Force to grab his saber in the Ice Cave, do we now have Wampa spies in league with the Emperor as well?



Again, it was Tarkin's belief which is proven to be untrue. And why would he call Vader "the last..." if he knew that Palps was a Force user? He wouldn't, because it appears that he doesn't know. Don't forget, Tarkin was referring to Obi-Wan being dead, so he's already wrong about Vader being "the last", and even after Obi-Wan's death there's still Yoda. Tarkin is just mistaken, there's no 2 ways about it, he doesn't know what he is talking about, he is basically saying "since all the rest of the Jedi are dead, so must Ben be" and punctuates it with the inaccurate statement about Vader being the last Jedi / Force-user.



Really?! Isn't that interesting. All this time, Palpatine has been busy boasting about what he can foresee and sense and the minute Vader comes to him with something that he has felt, Palpatine hasn't. Weird, huh? Why do you suppose that would be, eh?You haven't fully quoted the line, it ends with "I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader." Palpatine's suggestion is that Vader's feelings are at the heart of the matter, the reason he can sense Luke while his master cannot.



that's not nearly the comparison. the only implication here is that ben was reckless, as well. Sorry stilla, you know I am with you on this "Yoda the only master" thing, but darthvyn has a point there.

stillakid
03-22-2005, 12:31 AM
I just skimmed most of that because you obviously didn't read my post.

On the contrary, I read every single word...twice...before typing out a response to it. So tell me, exactly which part of your diatribe didn't I understand?


I'm through wasting my time with this debate - You will never see what is obviously there because you have some sort of bizzare, deep loathing for the Prequels.
You obviously have some bizarre deep worship for the Prequels. :neutral: You don't read my posts completely. You don't take the time to comprehend the posts. If status quo and "safe" is what you crave, I believe you've found your haven in life.

I don't "loath the Prequels" just for giggles. I am merely pointing out that they are full of inconsistencies in comparison to the established continuity of the original films. That's all. :classic:

stillakid
03-22-2005, 12:54 AM
You are out of your gourd, it is not "only logical" to make that assumption. Obi-Wan doesn't say he senses another person, he says he has a bad feeling about "this", and when pressed says it's elsewhere and elusive. For all we know, Obi-Wan is talking about the future, it is after all difficult to see and Qui-Gon tells him to be concentrating on the here-and-now, and the future as we later find out includes Qui-Gon's death.
You assume it's about the future and then proceed to take it to a possible conclusion based on your initial assumption. But knowing Lucas and his heavy-handed writing, it is entirely logical to expect and assume that Obi Wan's line was direct attempt to foreshadow Maul. You're grasping at straws trying to torpedo this example.


You haven't given ample reason to explain it away, you have given only the most implausible, unbelieveable, illogical reason in an attempt to cover up a hole in your theory. And that's why I keep focusing on it, it's a deadly blow to your theory, the Emperor knows about Luke meeting with Yoda and taking his steps into becoming a full Jedi, and that either shows the Emp has a spy there telling him about this or he sensed it through the Force.
No, I've given you every reasonable reason to "explain it away." I can't control what you choose to believe and what you choose to ignore. Sure, if YOU wish to place spies on Dagobah, I can see why you'd have such a hard time with it, but that's your theory, not mine. Palpatine merely says that there is a disturbance in the Force. This is really the first time the audience gets to hear from the guy since Luke blew up his Death Star so naturally we're going to hear some concern about a potential threat to him no matter when it occurred in the script. Coincidentally, it happens while Luke is away at camp. HOWEVER, if you wish to believe that Luke's actions triggered ripples in the Force that a Force user could sense, Vader claims to have "felt them" but Palpatine never really does. All he says is that there is a disturbance in the Force. How to explain that in the paradigm of my assertion? Easy. Just like every other thing Palpatine does, he finds out via spies that the son of Skywalker was the one who blew up the Death Star. He puts 2 and 2 together and knows that if Anakin was chock full o' Midichlorians then the son must be also. Feeling the need to keep control over Vader by pretending to be a Force user, Palpatine calls Vader up on the phone and says, "Hey, there's a disturbance in the Force." What he's really saying without really saying it is that he knows Anakin's son is out there and probably is a Force user too. The next line is, "the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi." Clearly he is worried about the ramifications of this new information and needs Vader to be clear about his proper place in the pecking order.

Major hole in the theory? Not really. ;)


That's a hell of an assumption, that the disturbance in the Force is distance-sensitive, yet you have absolutely nothing to back that up, you are just guessing. So what other Force-disturbing actions could have set both Emp and Vader off to comment on this, Luke using the Force to grab his saber in the Ice Cave, do we now have Wampa spies in league with the Emperor as well?
Assumption? Not really. It's based on everything we see in the Saga. Again, you're assuming that Vader and the Emperor actually felt something coming from Dagobah at that specific moment in the script.



Don't forget, Tarkin was referring to Obi-Wan being dead, so he's already wrong about Vader being "the last", and even after Obi-Wan's death there's still Yoda. Tarkin is just mistaken, there's no 2 ways about it, he doesn't know what he is talking about, he is basically saying "since all the rest of the Jedi are dead, so must Ben be" and punctuates it with the inaccurate statement about Vader being the last Jedi / Force-user.
Right, I addressed this more specifically a couple posts back. I presume that you missed it.


You haven't fully quoted the line, it ends with "I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader." Palpatine's suggestion is that Vader's feelings are at the heart of the matter, the reason he can sense Luke while his master cannot.
Right, I did leave off the line which only further supports what I was saying. Palpatine says that line to Vader to hammer home his proper place. Palpatine is rightfully concerned that Vader may be getting those paternal pangs and may try to stage a coup instead of having to kill off Luke. It has nothing to do with the reason Palps can't sense Luke while Vader can. Palps CAN'T sense Luke because he isn't a Force user. Vader CAN because he is. Palps is usually the one coming to Vader with boasts about his abilities, but this one time, Vader approaches him with information that he should have known. That scares the crap out of Palpatine so he sits back and says, in as calm a voice as he can muster, "He will seek you out...I have foreseen it." Just more boasting to "one up" Vader and keep the second in command in his place.

Look, I didn't write this stuff. I'm just explaining what's really there. It's not my fault if you guys don't wish to see it for what it is.



Sorry stilla, you know I am with you on this "Yoda the only master" thing, but darthvyn has a point there.
Which was...

that's not nearly the comparison. the only implication here is that ben was reckless, as well.
That's part of the implication, but the situation that Ben describes relative to what we learn in AOTC is that in order for Yoda to have known Ben as reckless ("So was I if you remember") during his training ("The Jedi Master who instructed me"), he would have had to be the same age as Anakin in AOTC in order for that advanced part of the training to be taking place...not that kindergarten that Yoda was babysitting.




I think that the major problem most of you guys are having is that you're looking at these individual pieces as if they existed in a vaccuum. Sure, you could pull any one of the elements out and shoot it full of holes, but with all the elements in question combined, they build a compelling conclusion that Palpatine was not and could not have been a Force user for the majority of the saga.

Von-El
03-22-2005, 01:47 AM
Stillakid, you cannot be helped. I won't even bother reading the mess the you write in those long drawn out posts. Here are people telling you what has happened in the movies and what will happen and you still are in denial in your own little world.

How tragic you are.


Darthvyn and others--sorry about adding the ROTS spoilers in one of my posts on page 7. But still what I can't understand is why that particular spoiler is off-limits when we are discussing clips from ROTS, which are also spoilers. Other message boards are talking about the other Sith Lord I mentioned on page 7.

Stillakid has come up with some off the wall mess and adding in that tidbit was a way counter his arguments.

stillakid
03-22-2005, 10:04 AM
Stillakid, you cannot be helped. I won't even bother reading the mess the you write in those long drawn out posts. Here are people telling you what has happened in the movies and what will happen and you still are in denial in your own little world.
LOL! That's hilarious. I'm over here telling you what happened in the movies and YOU are still in denial in your own little world. And your refusal to actually read what I wrote is further proof that some of you would rather hide away with the comfort of what you think is the truth instead of taking the time to educate yourselves as to what is really going on. If you really had that much faith in what you believe, then you wouldn't be threatened by the valid points I've been making.


How tragic you are.
Ditto.




Stillakid has come up with some off the wall mess and adding in that tidbit was a way counter his arguments.
Off the wall? Hardly, and your points failed again to successfully "counter" my arguments.

darthvyn
03-22-2005, 07:33 PM
Darthvyn and others--sorry about adding the ROTS spoilers in one of my posts on page 7. But still what I can't understand is why that particular spoiler is off-limits when we are discussing clips from ROTS, which are also spoilers. Other message boards are talking about the other Sith Lord I mentioned on page 7.

uh, all spoilers are off limits in the forums unless in the episode III (spoilers) section. and i don't go to other message boards just because of that. it's cool, but you better watch yourself. i have the death sentence on twelve systems! :evil:

darthvyn
03-22-2005, 07:53 PM
You assume it's about the future and then proceed to take it to a possible conclusion based on your initial assumption. But knowing Lucas and his heavy-handed writing, it is entirely logical to expect and assume that Obi Wan's line was direct attempt to foreshadow Maul. You're grasping at straws trying to torpedo this example.

foreshadowing means setting the mood for the FUTURE of the story. maul kills qui-gon, and you just proved his point.



That's part of the implication, but the situation that Ben describes relative to what we learn in AOTC is that in order for Yoda to have known Ben as reckless ("So was I if you remember") during his training ("The Jedi Master who instructed me"), he would have had to be the same age as Anakin in AOTC in order for that advanced part of the training to be taking place...not that kindergarten that Yoda was babysitting.

it only implies that at one time in his training obi-wan was reckless. it doesn't imply it was when he was luke's age. it doesn't even imply it was when yoda was training him. only if he said;

"so was i, if you'll remember. when i was his age. when you trained me..."

would it imply all that you take from it.



I think that the major problem most of you guys are having is that you're looking at these individual pieces as if they existed in a vaccuum. Sure, you could pull any one of the elements out and shoot it full of holes, but with all the elements in question combined, they build a compelling conclusion that Palpatine was not and could not have been a Force user for the majority of the saga.

then i must be very, very, very, very, very, very stupid, as i find nothing compelling in the assembled elements in question, which i have taken as a whole, and still shot full of holes. the amount of conjecture and gap in common sense it takes to jump from palpatine saying "everything is happening as i have forseen" and think "he's OBVIOUSLY bluffing" is completely mind boggling. and your only evidence is that tarkin says vader is the last of the jed, and that vader was able to suprise palpatine by picking him up and throwing him down the reactor shaft. hey, since tarkin thinks vader is the last of the jedi, but we've seen ben kenobi alive, obviously ben isn't really a jedi, and c-3po is really a giant metal chicken! :crazed:

2-1B
03-23-2005, 01:28 AM
I think The Emperor reveals himself as a Sith in The Phantom Menace. :)

Nute: "Now there are two of them !"

Mace: "no doubt the the mysterious warrior was a Sith."
Yoda: "two there are . . . a master and an apprentice."

Maul: "at last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi."

JediTricks
03-23-2005, 02:43 AM
You assume it's about the future and then proceed to take it to a possible conclusion based on your initial assumption. But knowing Lucas and his heavy-handed writing, it is entirely logical to expect and assume that Obi Wan's line was direct attempt to foreshadow Maul. You're grasping at straws trying to torpedo this example.No, my point was that there is no 1 thing that we are pointed to by the line, it could literally be about ANYTHING, yet you have determined for all of us that it is a reference to Maul even though it's 100% conjecture on your part. You have no "example" there, nothing but assumption.


Assumption? Not really. It's based on everything we see in the Saga. Name 1 thing it's based upon.


Right, I addressed this more specifically a couple posts back. I presume that you missed it. No, I saw it, but you were trying to have it both ways there, you can't use Tarkin's statement to back up your explanation why Palps isn't a Sith.


Right, I did leave off the line which only further supports what I was saying. Palpatine says that line to Vader to hammer home his proper place. Palpatine is rightfully concerned that Vader may be getting those paternal pangs and may try to stage a coup instead of having to kill off Luke. It has nothing to do with the reason Palps can't sense Luke while Vader can. Palps CAN'T sense Luke because he isn't a Force user. Again, trying to have it both ways, either Palpatine uses the Force to open the cuffs and later to zap Luke or not, and if he isn't using the Force to do those things, what onscreen evidence supports this hypothesis? Oh, that's right, only the EU movie playing in your head which you seem to expect the rest of us to accept.


Look, I didn't write this stuff. I'm just explaining what's really there. It's not my fault if you guys don't wish to see it for what it is. No, you are explaining what you THINK is there, and it seems as if you don't have anybody else seeing it your way.


That's part of the implication, but the situation that Ben describes relative to what we learn in AOTC is that in order for Yoda to have known Ben as reckless ("So was I if you remember") during his training ("The Jedi Master who instructed me"), he would have had to be the same age as Anakin in AOTC in order for that advanced part of the training to be taking place...not that kindergarten that Yoda was babysitting. Not the same age, the same level of training.


Don't forget Caesar that when Mace says the line about "which was this, the master or apprentice" that the camera then pans straight to Palpatine.

stillakid
03-23-2005, 08:53 AM
foreshadowing means setting the mood for the FUTURE of the story. maul kills qui-gon, and you just proved his point.
Not really. Yes, foreshadowing means that Obers was creating a story hint that a bad guy would show up sometime later on. That bad guy, as you yourself point out, is Maul. Being that he is the bad-guy-Force user in this story, and that Lucas is a bad writer, we should be able to infer that Maul is what this foreshadowing is, well, foreshadowing. :D




it only implies that at one time in his training obi-wan was reckless. it doesn't imply it was when he was luke's age. it doesn't even imply it was when yoda was training him. only if he said;

"so was i, if you'll remember. when i was his age. when you trained me..."

would it imply all that you take from it.
:confused: I think you just agreed with me by saying "when I was his age." Meaning, when Obers was Luke's age, Yoda trained him thereby calling into question the issue of Qui Gon.





then i must be very, very, very, very, very, very stupid, as i find nothing compelling in the assembled elements in question, which i have taken as a whole, and still shot full of holes.
No, no. Nobody is saying that you're stupid. Silly for thinking that maybe. ;) But no, you're just confused like most other people by what you think the story is supposed to be instead of just looking at what is actually there. It's the same situation with the question of who trained Obi Wan. What Lucas wants us to think the story says and what it actually says are two different things. Don't get me wrong. I COMPLETELY understand ever point and conclusion that you and the others throw out there and I understand how and why you believe it. All I'm saying is that the scripts are fundamentally flawed by not drawing that intended picture very well. That's all. :)


hey, since tarkin thinks vader is the last of the jedi, but we've seen ben kenobi alive, obviously ben isn't really a jedi, and c-3po is really a giant metal chicken! :crazed:
Those are red-herring statements meant to mock the argument. Tarkin thinks Vader is the last of the Jedi because he didn't know about Ben being alive and he certainly doesn't know about Yoda. But he DOES know that Palpatine is out there and in order for him to make that statement, he would either have to know that Palps wasn't a Force user (unlikely) or never have met the Emperor so that he wouldn't be able to draw a conclusion either way. But because Palps doesn't dress up like a standard Emperor or Imperial officer, and that he has Vader (a definite Force user) as his main muscle, it would be MORE likely that Palpatine would at the very least infer that Palpatine WAS a Force user. But because he obviously doesn't, it tells us that Tarkin KNOWS that Palpatine isn't a Force user at all.

stillakid
03-23-2005, 08:56 AM
I think The Emperor reveals himself as a Sith in The Phantom Menace. :)

Nute: "Now there are two of them !"

Mace: "no doubt the the mysterious warrior was a Sith."
Yoda: "two there are . . . a master and an apprentice."

Maul: "at last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi."

Palps was "fronting" to Nute.

Yoda was making a statement regarding the theory of the Sith. But again, I never said that Palps didn't know how to do any of the Sith stuff, I merely said that he never actually did any of it. Doing so would have created unmistakable ripples in the pond and he would have been discovered before his nefarious plan could be carried out.

Maul considered Palps his master, like Dooku did (probably) and like Anakin does later. But again, it doesn't mean that Palps wasn't a Sith, it just means that he never used the Force. And I have yet to see proof until ROTJ that he ever did.

stillakid
03-23-2005, 09:04 AM
No, my point was that there is no 1 thing that we are pointed to by the line, it could literally be about ANYTHING, yet you have determined for all of us that it is a reference to Maul even though it's 100% conjecture on your part. You have no "example" there, nothing but assumption..
Yes, there is a bit of inference there. I explained this more about two posts back.


Name 1 thing it's based upon.
Geez, you want me to repost everything that's in this entire thread? :sur:



No, I saw it, but you were trying to have it both ways there, you can't use Tarkin's statement to back up your explanation why Palps isn't a Sith.
I certainly can...as part of the entire puzzle. I explained this more a post back.


Again, trying to have it both ways, either Palpatine uses the Force to open the cuffs and later to zap Luke or not, and if he isn't using the Force to do those things, what onscreen evidence supports this hypothesis? Oh, that's right, only the EU movie playing in your head which you seem to expect the rest of us to accept.
:confused: Again, what are you talking about? :confused: Yeah, Palps uses the Force in ROTJ. I thought that had been established? :sur:


No, you are explaining what you THINK is there, and it seems as if you don't have anybody else seeing it your way.
No, as I explained to Darthvyn a couple posts ago, this isn't about what I think is there. I'm merely pointing out another example of how the scripts fail to draw the obvious intention well, just like the Obi Wan/Qui Gon/Yoda question. :)





Don't forget Caesar that when Mace says the line about "which was this, the master or apprentice" that the camera then pans straight to Palpatine.
Right, Palps was the master, but it doesn't mean that he actually USED the Force. You guys are confusing Force use with everything else. This is purely about Force use. No?

2-1B
03-23-2005, 10:02 AM
Sideous was "fronting" to Nute. :rolleyes: Sideous was a non-Force using master to Maul. :rolleyes:

Ahhhh it doesn't even matter because in 2 months there will be 3 prequels and not just 2 to base these silly theories on. ;)

I'll check back then.

stillakid
03-23-2005, 11:30 AM
Sideous was "fronting" to Nute. :rolleyes: Sideous was a non-Force using master to Maul. :rolleyes:
Why not? Name one good reason why not. Sidious/Palpatine had every reason to put the fear of "god" into Nute. He was actively using those guys as pawns in his dastardly plan.

And as far as being a master to Maul without using the Force, why not? Give me a reason why that would be unreasonable and I'll consider it. I mean, besides :rolleyes: . ;)


Ahhhh it doesn't even matter because in 2 months there will be 3 prequels and not just 2 to base these silly theories on. ;)

I'll check back then.
I've said all along that ROTS will come along and only add to the current track record of the Prequels which contradicts established continuity. But even that isn't entirely accurate because Episodes I and II also support my contention, so that PROVES that this isn't just another random "Prequel hating" assertion. ;)

darthvyn
03-23-2005, 11:52 AM
:confused: I think you just agreed with me by saying "when I was his age." Meaning, when Obers was Luke's age, Yoda trained him thereby calling into question the issue of Qui Gon.

no, anyone can see i was DISagreeing with you, in that it would've been necessary to add those two bits of dialogue to infer what you have been saying. as those two bits of dialogue do NOT exist, the only thing to infer concretely is that at one point in his career as a jedi, obi-wan was reckless.



No, no. Nobody is saying that you're stupid. Silly for thinking that maybe. ;) But no, you're just confused like most other people by what you think the story is supposed to be instead of just looking at what is actually there. It's the same situation with the question of who trained Obi Wan. What Lucas wants us to think the story says and what it actually says are two different things. Don't get me wrong. I COMPLETELY understand ever point and conclusion that you and the others throw out there and I understand how and why you believe it. All I'm saying is that the scripts are fundamentally flawed by not drawing that intended picture very well. That's all. :)

i think with the majority of the people responding in this thread denouncing your theory, that it is you who are not getting the intended picture. i understand your thoughts and views here, but the circular logic and leaps in thought process you've expected everyone else to follow in order to "see it your way" have been a detriment to your arguement. occam's razor. the simplest explanation is that palpatine is, was, and always will be a sith throughout the saga.



Those are red-herring statements meant to mock the argument. Tarkin thinks Vader is the last of the Jedi because he didn't know about Ben being alive and he certainly doesn't know about Yoda. But he DOES know that Palpatine is out there and in order for him to make that statement, he would either have to know that Palps wasn't a Force user (unlikely) or never have met the Emperor so that he wouldn't be able to draw a conclusion either way. But because Palps doesn't dress up like a standard Emperor or Imperial officer, and that he has Vader (a definite Force user) as his main muscle, it would be MORE likely that Palpatine would at the very least infer that Palpatine WAS a Force user. But because he obviously doesn't, it tells us that Tarkin KNOWS that Palpatine isn't a Force user at all.

or perhaps he truly thinks that vader is a jedi, that ben and yoda are dead, AND knows that palpatine is a force user and a sith. he doesn't say that vader is the last of the force-users, just that he's the last of the jedi religion.


Palps was "fronting" to Nute.

Yoda was making a statement regarding the theory of the Sith. But again, I never said that Palps didn't know how to do any of the Sith stuff, I merely said that he never actually did any of it. Doing so would have created unmistakable ripples in the pond and he would have been discovered before his nefarious plan could be carried out.

Maul considered Palps his master, like Dooku did (probably) and like Anakin does later. But again, it doesn't mean that Palps wasn't a Sith, it just means that he never used the Force. And I have yet to see proof until ROTJ that he ever did.

up until this page of the thread, your entire arguement is that palpatine didn't even LEARN the force until ROtJ!!! so now you're retro-fitting your argument to say that he DID know the force, just didn't use it? which was one of OUR explanations as to how the jedi didn't know he was the bad guy!!!

but i think at this point the thread is beating a dead horse.

stillakid
03-23-2005, 10:57 PM
no, anyone can see i was DISagreeing with you, in that it would've been necessary to add those two bits of dialogue to infer what you have been saying. as those two bits of dialogue do NOT exist, the only thing to infer concretely is that at one point in his career as a jedi, obi-wan was reckless.
Which we haven't ever seen and probably won't. And why not?




i think with the majority of the people responding in this thread denouncing your theory, that it is you who are not getting the intended picture. i understand your thoughts and views here, but the circular logic and leaps in thought process you've expected everyone else to follow in order to "see it your way" have been a detriment to your arguement. occam's razor. the simplest explanation is that palpatine is, was, and always will be a sith throughout the saga.
So just because more people have been duped into thinking one way means that they are automatically right? :confused: You know, slavery used to be a pretty popular thing too amongst the majority. ;)

But really, my logic IS circular. It doesn't take any special leaping out of the box to fit all the pieces together the way the standard Prequel-Rationalization Dance requires. And it certainly is the simplest explanation given the proofs offered in the saga. Not the most "popular," obviously, nor necessarily the intention (by Lucas), but definitely the result.




or perhaps he truly thinks that vader is a jedi, that ben and yoda are dead, AND knows that palpatine is a force user and a sith. he doesn't say that vader is the last of the force-users, just that he's the last of the jedi religion.
:confused: There you go, agreeing with me again. :) Who ever said that Darth Vader was ever a Jedi? Now you're requiring that Tarkin makes a differentiation between the Jedi and the Sith. That could be true except that it isn't based on what he says in the context that he says it. The conversation is about Obi Wan ("Vader's" old master) coming back to which Tarkin responds, "...you my friend are the last of their religion." The ONLY inference we can take from that is that Tarkin views "Force use" and/or users of all kinds as part of this one "religion." He doesn't make the attempt to separate out Sith from Jedi, because if he did and if he knew that Palpatine was a Force user and/or Sith, he wouldn't have said what he did. He ONLY knows Vader as a Sith, not as a Jedi. Right? Anakin wasn't part of the equation here. So if Palpatine is also a Sith, and Tarkin knows it, then why would Tarkin say what he did? And if Palpatine is a Force user as you claim, then why doesn't Tarkin know it, being the high ranking officer that he is?


up until this page of the thread, your entire arguement is that palpatine didn't even LEARN the force until ROtJ!!!
That's not even close to being a true statement. What I said is that Palpatine didn't start USING the Force until ROTJ. It's the USE which causes ripples in the pond that he wanted to avoid, lest he become detected prematurely. If he was Maul's master, he would have had to have been his teacher in some manner, most likely just teaching the theories without actually becoming a user himself. There is a DISTINCT difference here between KNOWING how to do something and actually DOING it yourself. There's a magic trick that I've always wanted to learn how to do and I finally learned via an expensive DVD. Now I KNOW how to do it, but I haven't practiced it so I am unable to actually DO it. But I could potentially teach someone else, so long as I put the cards into their hands and had them work it out with some verbal instruction. It's not as far-fetched nor convoluted as you guys are trying to make it out to be. And ironically, from a certain point of view ;) , I'M the one rationalizing out the story elements to make what ACTUALLY happens onscreen make any sense at all. It's the usual Prequel Rationalizers who are retreating from their usual methods. Weird. :ermm:

2-1B
03-24-2005, 12:45 AM
Stillakid, it doesn't make any sense that Palps would need to be a non-practicing Sith wannabe. Maul started training and it didn't send off enough ripples in the Force to lead the Jedi to him because they still BELIEVED the Sith were not around right up until Maul landed on Qui-Gon's doorstep.

In the next episode, we see Count Dooku, a former Jedi who was known (! ! !) to the other Jedi, well this guy turns Sith and they didn't feel it, not until Yoda was standing 3 feet in front of him.

Jeez, even Padme had Dooku pegged as one of the perps and ol' Ki-Adi-Mundi shot her down so fast, hell even Mace Windu said it wasn't in his character . . .

So I don't "get" why Palps must not practice the Dark Side of the Force to stay hidden while Maul and Dooku can fly just below radar. :)

Hey everybody that's two knocks against Ki-Ad-Mundi, in TPM he errantly states that the Sith have been extinct for a millenium, then in AOTC he defends Dooku as an idealist, not a murderer. I hope this guy dies oncreen in ROTS. :evil:

stillakid
03-24-2005, 09:54 AM
Stillakid, it doesn't make any sense that Palps would need to be a non-practicing Sith wannabe. Maul started training and it didn't send off enough ripples in the Force to lead the Jedi to him because they still BELIEVED the Sith were not around right up until Maul landed on Qui-Gon's doorstep.

In the next episode, we see Count Dooku, a former Jedi who was known (! ! !) to the other Jedi, well this guy turns Sith and they didn't feel it, not until Yoda was standing 3 feet in front of him.

Jeez, even Padme had Dooku pegged as one of the perps and ol' Ki-Adi-Mundi shot her down so fast, hell even Mace Windu said it wasn't in his character . . .

So I don't "get" why Palps must not practice the Dark Side of the Force to stay hidden while Maul and Dooku can fly just below radar. :)

Hey everybody that's two knocks against Ki-Ad-Mundi, in TPM he errantly states that the Sith have been extinct for a millenium, then in AOTC he defends Dooku as an idealist, not a murderer. I hope this guy dies oncreen in ROTS. :evil:


Right, I understand your confusion. Let me help you on the path to enlightenment. :D

You're still thinking in terms of Sith/Jedi...that Force users can tell the difference necessarily. The Force is just a neutral energy field to be used for good or bad just like a gun. Ripples in it aren't necessarily good or bad...they are just ripples, some big, some small. So in a galaxy with, presumably, what? 5000 Jedi or so plus who knows how many "undiscovered" Midi-rich citizens, a Jedi will probably ALWAYS be sensing some ripples caused by Force users. Because it takes a large event of Force use to reach vast distances, in most cases, you'd have to be relatively close to an event of Force use for it to actually register enough to notice.

Which is most likely why Maul had a great hiding place on Coruscant. His "ripples" blended in with all the others on that Jedi-rich planet. Who's gonna notice? As for Palpatine, he knew that he'd be in close proximity to Force users, so if he did use the Force and became adept at it, he'd put himself at risk of being detected. So in the end, it has nothing at all to do with whether Palps, Maul, Anakin, Yoda, Mace, Obers or any of the others choose the Sith or Jedi path. The key is in just tapping into the energy field and using it, thereby causing ripples which could be detected by others. Palpatine had large plans which required being in close proximity to Jedi. We assume he was a smart guy, so it only makes sense for him to NOT use the Force when carrying out his nefarious plan. Once we determine that, it is fairly easy to look at the evidence in I, II, IV, V, and VI to see that it is indeed true.