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darthvyn
03-20-2005, 10:19 AM
hey, i just want to pull out my balance prophecy theory one more time, so it's closer to the release date...

there is a prophecy stated in the ep.1, that a powerful person will bring balance to the force, and it is suspected that anakin skywalker is this person. what is not made clear is exactly how the force is OUT of balance, or what it will take to put it back INTO balance.

the force exists. it is an energy field that surrounds us and binds us. energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

we know of two factions of sentient beings that utilize this energy. the jedi, of whom there are thousands, and the sith, of whom there are only two.

if you break up the force into the "light side" energy and the "dark side" energy, who has more power over the force? two minds working toward one goal, or the thousands of minds working toward thousands of goals? which side comes off more concentrated, more focused?

the imbalance is that too many jedi have spread the light side too thin. each has less energy to draw from, therefore their individual power over the force is diminished.

jump to the OT. the only jedi we know of are ben and yoda. two, and only two, who have somehow survived a holocaust of all those like them. why were these two not hunted down? because when two jedi and two sith are left there is balance. they were left alive.

anakin will bring balance to the force. it's just a prophecy of doom for the jedi.

Jedi Teacher
03-20-2005, 11:12 AM
Interesting theory!!!!

I had always that "balance" meant no sith. Although technically that is out of balance, just tilted toward the light side. Hopefully ROTS will provide insight!

Kidhuman
03-20-2005, 11:57 AM
Balance means allis at peace, or at least thats what I tink it means. Having equal sides and everything equal is a different kind of balance to me. But, when they found Anakin and said he was the chosen one, of the Sith they knew not, so what is the balance then? They didnt find Maul until Anakin was ready toleave Tatooine, or better yet, Maul found them....

darthvyn
03-20-2005, 12:36 PM
to the jedi it has nothing to do with the sith, as they don't know they still exist. they just have this prophecy that someone will bring balance to the force. they don't know what it means or how it will come about. they think it sounds good, who wouldn't? but exactly how is the force OUT of balance? we know that the jedi have diminished ability to tap into the force, and that there are many, many more of them out there using it in comparison to the amount of sith.

the main reason for my theory is that there is no mention of balance in the OT. this is a PT plot device, which has to be reconciled in the PT. this is the only way i see of making this prophecy true, and at the same time create the outcome we know is coming at the end of ROtS.

2-1B
03-20-2005, 12:51 PM
I don't believe the Force is currently out of balance and I don't think Mace or anybody else even knows exactly what they are talking about. Anakin is going to fulfill a prophecy in the future. The Jedi do not expect to get wiped out, but we know that by ANH they are "all but extinct." "Balance" is not mentioned in the OT but it still matters because when Vader kills the Emperor, THAT is where the balance comes into play.

I think the ideas about "2 vs. 2" and the like are kind of goofy and I don't use them myself.

Vader does not fulfill the prophecy by helping the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi, he fulfills it by taking out the Sith who have thrown the glaxy into an evil state.

darthvyn
03-20-2005, 01:07 PM
I don't believe the Force is currently out of balance and I don't think Mace or anybody else even knows exactly what they are talking about. Anakin is going to fulfill a prophecy in the future. The Jedi do not expect to get wiped out, but we know that by ANH they are "all but extinct."

that's exactly what i'm basing this all on, except for the belief that the force isn't out of balance. if the force isn't out of balance, why do the jedi care about this prophecy? it has nothing to do with them at this moment.

qui-gon: "i've encountered a vergence in the force."

yoda: "*yawn* huh? wha?"

qui-con: "a VERGENCE. y'know what that means, right?"

yoda: "meh."

mace: "you refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the force, right?"

qui-gon: "YES, finally!"

mace: "who cares? the force ain't out of balance! if it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

obviously, it IS out of balance during the prequels, if everyone is looking for the chosen one.

balance is even. the good side winning isn't balance. that's the light conquering the dark. i think everyone is too preoccupied with the notion that balance is always a good thing. if this isn't the way it plays out, and the balance is in fact at the end of ROtJ, they're gonna have to add a line with either ghost yoda and ghost obi-wan talking to ghost anakin:

obi-wan: "well, kid, ya finally did it! balance at last."

yoda: "get this over with, let's. a date with billie holliday, i have."

anakin: "YIPPIE!"

Hellboy
03-20-2005, 03:17 PM
Vader does not fulfill the prophecy by helping the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi, he fulfills it by taking out the Sith who have thrown the glaxy into an evil state.

This has been my interpretation of the prophecy as well.

The balance was initially thrown off with the emergence of the Sith and as they grew stronger the Jedi's connection to the force diminished. Once Vader sacrificed himself to destroy Palpatine only the Jedi remained, thus bringing balance back to the force.

I think instead of looking at the Jedi and Sith as being 2 equal sides of the force, much like a positive and negative side of a magnet, the Sith should be considered more of a perversion of the force. When refering to balance I think the Jedi really mean control and once that had been reestablished with the destruction of the Sith their definition of balance had been achieved.

darthvyn
03-21-2005, 10:26 AM
they are going to have to make the changes to the OT to make that more apparent, then.

i'm not looking at the jedi and sith as 2 equal sides of the force. i'm looking at the light side and the dark side as two equal sides of the force. the jedi and the sith are inconsequential, they just use these sides of the force. right now the distribution of the force is unbalanced. the light side is spread among all the jedi, and the dark side between only two (or three...) individuals. who has the power here?

a balanced equation is two mathematical statments that cancel each other out, or equal each other depending on how you look at it. 2 jedi = 2 sith. balanced distribution of the force.

the only way i would see balance in the end of ROtJ, is if leia turns to the dark side or if luke dies. :crazed:

2-1B
03-21-2005, 12:06 PM
Vyn, I just don't see the good/evil aspect being a mathematical 50/50 split. I think the natural state, or balance, is for good to be the dominant way of life.

stillakid
03-21-2005, 01:51 PM
they are going to have to make the changes to the OT to make that more apparent, then.


:eek: Why don't we just all drive Hummers and eat Dolphins while we're at it?

darthvyn
03-21-2005, 02:45 PM
Vyn, I just don't see the good/evil aspect being a mathematical 50/50 split. I think the natural state, or balance, is for good to be the dominant way of life.

with space samurai running around the galaxy, i don't see how the concept of yin/yang can't fit into the star wars universe. good is good. bad is bad. balance is balance. good triumphing over evil is not balance. it's a damn good thing, but that's not what we're in for with episode III.


:eek: Why don't we just all drive Hummers and eat Dolphins while we're at it?

i got the solution to that one... turn the dophins into gasoline, thus alleviating both our gas shortage and dolphin over-population! :evil:

2-1B
03-22-2005, 04:09 AM
Vyn, I know what you're saying but when I look at my own life, I believe I am pretty balanced yet I enjoy far more joys than I do sorrows. It's not yin/yang for me.

My issue with Mace's point of view on Balance is this:
We can't say on one hand that he knows the Force is out of balance because of the Sith when in TPM at first he doesn't even think the Sith are around in the first place.

Now, if we are talking AOTC then I can see it because he's aware by the end of TPM that Maul was a Sith and they are indeed back.

I'll have to watch the movies again, thanks for giving me a reason. :D

darthvyn
03-22-2005, 07:22 PM
we'll have to agree to disagree on the balance in life. to me, saying you enjoy far more joys that sorrows in life means that it's not balanced. but that's the concept of yin and yang. it doesn't mean everything must be 50/50: just that there must exist bad in order to realize the good. you are able to appreciate that you enjoy far more joys BECAUSE of the sorrows that you've experienced. otherwise, you wouldn't have any frame of reference.

in terms of the movies, i'm not saying that ANYONE knows that the force is out of balance BECAUSE of the sith. like you said, the jedi don't know the sith still exist. all they know is that the force IS out of balance, and that the prophecy states there will be someone that comes along to bring balance to the force. what that means or how that happens, they don't know. like i said, they don't even know how or why the force IS out of balance.

the fact that the prophecy exists denotes the fact that the force HAS been out of balance. a prophecy that has no pertinence to the time it was created means nothing. if the force wasn't out of balance at the time of the prophecy, everyone would've been like "thanks, that's great. what's that got to do with me?" the fact that everyone is so interested in the prophecy denotes the fact that it is pertinent.

2-1B
03-23-2005, 01:40 AM
Vyn, I will agree to agree to disagree. :D

Actually, no I won't because your last post actually cleared up the position for my understanding and I see more of what you are saying. Okay, so the Jedi know the Force is out of balance, just not WHY it is ? Makes more sense, I mean at least it deals with the issue of them not knowing the Sith have returned.

Prophecy, well I shouldn't say too much about it since it might become Rancor Pit-ish ;) but you're right about that. I mean look at Revelation, a biblical book of prophecy meant for the people of the time . . . . then again, people use it thousands of years later to apply to current issues, know what I mean ? That's the way I looked at the Jedi POV.

Okay, so you need bad to frame up the quality of the good, I get what you're saying but in the end this 50/50 balance thing still can't work with Star Wars because once Vader's iron lung gives out and after he chucks Palps down the shaft, suddenly Luke is the only Jedi around, soon to be followed by Leia . . . so now you've got 2 Jedi and no Sith, that's not balanced either. What next, the cycle has to happen again, with someone decimating the Jedi ranks again ? :crazed:

PLEASE, please I hope nobody brings up Jorus C'Boath. :crazed:

Ahhhhh it's nearly 2am and I can barely type, not to mention think. :dead:

darthvyn
03-23-2005, 12:18 PM
don't you mean joruuuuuuuuuus?

when luke is the last of the jedi, with leia to follow, that's GOOD! it's not balanced, the scales have tipped in the favor of the jedi for the first time, because there's no one to use the dark side of the force. at this time, the bad that was the frame of reference was the empire.

since energy can not be created nor destroyed, only CHANGED to another form, perhaps there needs to be another layer added to the theory. since the force PARTLY controls your actions, but also obeys your commands, maybe the existence of sith creates the dark side, and the existence of jedi creates the light? the balancing out of the energy between all the jedi and the two sith can be explained by the idea of entropy.

enĚtroĚpy Audio pronunciation of "entropy" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ntr-p)
n. pl. enĚtroĚpies

1. Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work.
2. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system.
3. A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message.
4. The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity.
5. Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.

we're looking mainly at #4 here: the tendency for all matter and ENERGY in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity. now, i'm going to use my dime-store understanding in terms of physics and the like, but to me that means the energy, with the introduction of the dark side, would eventually balance out, bringing us to the prequels, where the sith finally have enough power to take over the galaxy and have their revenge on the jedi. the reason why the dark half of the force appears to be more powerful than the light is that it is more concentrated, being that it is split between two beings, whereas the light side is spread among thousands of jedi.

take two containers of liquid, one water and one cola. fill a thousand cups with the water, and fill two cups with the cola. which cups would have more liquid? this is my theory on the force. the sith are filled with more energy individually than the jedi are.

well, i don't know if i just furthered my theories or if i detrimented them... but whatever...

as for the prophecy, and revelations, true, it was written thousands of years ago. but it pertained to the time it was written, and (most) people still believe it pertains. that's the beauty of a prophecy: it's always in the future, until it is proven or disproven! the end of the world hasn't come yet (though more and more people feel like it's close!) so we won't know if the book of revelations is true until then!

Turambar
03-23-2005, 03:02 PM
Good thread. I've never quite understood the whole "balance" issue, but who has? We've completed two movies, yet are no closer to understanding it than when QG said it in E1. I get the feeling that the reason we don't know yet it because Lucas didn't really know what it meant -- it sounded cool to have a prophecy and balance and all, but he's "making it up as [he] goes" so he figured by E3 he'd figure it out.
We know from the trilogy that there are 2 sides (light and dark) with neither being more powerful, only different motivations. So it is obviously not out of balance at that time.
How did it become unbalanced? Who knows? It would have been nice to have used E1 to explain at some point what causes the force scales to be tipped one way or the other, and why it has become unbalanced, or why anyone would care!
How do you reset or zero the force scale again? Again, who knows? 2/3 of the way through, and no insight on this issue. Only a prophecy that the chosen one will bring balance.
How did Anakin restore the balance? By exterminating the jedi? By killing the sith? By leaving one jedi left to pass on what he had learned. That seems like it will repeat the same cycle: train a bunch of new jedi with no sith; isn't that what had happened by E1? And the force was out of balance then, so wouldn't this cause imbalance as well?
Like a lot of the prequel content, this hasn't made sense to me or anyone else I've talked to. It really wouldn't surprise me if we never hear anything about balance again. Afterall Lucas has tons of material to cover in E3. I think the balance issue will fade along with the midichlorians and the dead jedi disappearing/not disappearing issues that Lucas once said he would deal with in the prequels.

darthvyn
03-23-2005, 03:32 PM
all good questions. i think some of the hang-ups people have are thus:

nowhere in what we've heard about the prophecy does it say the balance will be maintained forever. therefore, sure, the force will become unbalanced again at some point. this is another eastern philosophy, and part of yin/yang: cycles, repeating, imperminence.

that the force being balanced is a good thing: doesn't need to be.

that the force being balanced means the galaxy is at peace: the balance of the force and the clone war, or the rise of the empire don't have to be corresponding things.

in the OT, the only time we see vader and (in the shadows,) palpatine worrying is after there are THREE jedi at once: ben, yoda, and fledgling luke. sure, ben dies, and there is still balance, but vader and palp know yoda must die at some point, meaning that luke will be the only one left: going by my theory, he's then the most powerful force user, as his glass is full of the light side.

i think we will see the answer to this one in E3. hopefully we get the answer to jedi dissappearing/not disappearing, and midichlorians, as well. i've had threads with my theories on both of those, as well... maybe it's time to revive them, too!