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stillakid
01-05-2002, 08:09 PM
"You seem to want to see World War II with ingnorance of the fact that there was World War ONE."


The question at hand is, what is the point of giving us the life histories of all the B characters from the original trilogy? The first three Star Wars films that we all grew up on were PRIMARILY about the rise and fall of a tyranical empire. Any other side stories, such as the Leia love triangle, Luke becoming a Jedi, the Luke/Leia/Vader triangle, Solo's sordid past, etc, were just that -- side stories that supported the main plot line.

The Prequels are shaping up to be all about the side stories with the fall of the Republic relegated to being the secondary side plot. ie, "oh yeah, the republic is falling apart, but back to the main story over here where Anakin is throwing a fit because he's in love."

My desire to NOT see the complete geneologies of characters, like Boba Fett, in the prequels isn't about ignoring the past, as the above quote implies. It's about putting emphasis back onto the primary story that everyone is really interested in. Fett was a great character... in ESB. But do we really need to see his daddy give him the hand-me-down Slave I? What's the point?

It's like giving Lenny and Squiggy their own show (from Laverne & Shirley, if you don't recall). Or giving Larry, Darryl and Darryl their own show (Newhart), or Cousin Oliver from Brady Bunch. All of them were great characters (okay, not that last one) but let it be at that. Why ruin a great character and his mystique by cramming his entire life history down our throats? Isn't there enough of a story to tell with the Rise and Fall of the Republic? Is it truly necessary to put Expanded Universe fodder up on the screen?

Tycho
01-05-2002, 08:26 PM
George Lucas says "Live" on my video tapes (the THX version interview ones) that Star Wars is about the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin Skywalker, set against the backscape of the war and all this philosophy about good and evil.

It is not primarily about the Rebellion vs. the Empire, and the Rise and Fall of the Republic / Empire.

I like what you like, but it's only half the story, Kid.

bigbarada
01-05-2002, 09:38 PM
So what you're saying, stillakid, is that Boba Fett is the Squiggy of Star Wars?:D

As I mentioned in the Ep2 toys section, I don't have a problem with Boba's origin being layed out in Ep2; but I never liked the character before seeing the Ep2 pictures. The most readily comparable character for which I can empathize with you is Han Solo. I really don't like the idea of him appearing in the prequels in any form; but I am beginning to dread that it might just be in the gameplan for GL. As long as he doesn't turn out to be a clone, I think I can live with it.;) :p

As much as I like Threepio and Artoo, I don't really think they needed to be in the prequels. I was always under the impression that ANH was the beginning of their story. Unfortunately that wasn't the case.

Speaking of unnecessary cameos, did Jabba really need to be in Ep1? Couldn't his part be just as easily carried out by one of his lackeys? A powerful lackey, but a lackey nonetheless.

Overall, I think the prequels are shaping up to becoming a tired story with a tremendous lack of imagination. It seems that Lucas has always wanted these movies to be seen as meaningless tripe. Well, he's succeeding admirably in that respect.

His burned-out husk of creativity has turned what could have been greatness into mediocrity.

stillakid
01-05-2002, 11:55 PM
Those interviews that you speak of are the Twenty-years-later-Lucas. All of the interviews from a long time ago speak of this great space opera about the rise and fall of a great Republic. In one of his last interviews in the '80's (Playboy, I think), Lucas hinted at what the prequels would be like. He used the term Machevelian to describe the political struggles that we would see on screen. Less action, he said. He even stated that he didn't think that people would like it as much as the action-laden original trilogy. The armor that Fett wears in ESB was said to have been taken from a Mandalorian soldier, one of the groups who took down the Jedi. No mention of dear ol' dad ever wearing the suit. The one....and this is really important...and only common thread to the entire saga (as stated way back when) was to be the droids, R2 and C-3PO. Sort of a Laurel and Hardy pair, the story was more or less to be told through their eyes. Man have things changed...

Jump ahead to the late 1990's and a brand new story was concocted by Lucas. One that includes Midichlorians, lil' Fett, now I'm hearing rumours of lil' Solo, Slave I makes an appearance, Qui Gon (a character who takes all of the actions that Obi Wan was supposed to have as described in the original trilogy). The entire "history" as described in the OT and by Lucas himself in old interviews has changed. Hardly a thing is the same. Sure, R2 and 3PO are there, as well as Obi Wan, but they're not doing the things that Lucas told us they would be doing. That's the problem. He set the story up. He gave us certain expectations and now he's backing off and changing just about everything.

If he really meant to have all of these current prequel things in there from the start, don't you think that he would have mentioned them at some point in the 1970's or '80's? So where's that other half of the story you mentioned?

JediTricks
01-06-2002, 07:15 AM
Stilla, while I agree with you, it's sadly too late. For me, it's either accept it or drop the whole thing (which is totally hinging on Ep 2 for me). It definitely isn't what Lucas promised us in the past, but Lucas has the power to change things to fit his current whim; see Wookiees into Ewoks for more on this, it's not just a modern thing.

Rollo Tomassi
01-06-2002, 07:46 AM
It could all turn around with Episodes VII, VIII, and IX....what?!?


HE LIED ABOUT THOSE, TOO???!?!!?


damn him...:mad: :rolleyes:

stillakid
01-06-2002, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Stilla, while I agree with you, it's sadly too late. For me, it's either accept it or drop the whole thing (which is totally hinging on Ep 2 for me). It definitely isn't what Lucas promised us in the past, but Lucas has the power to change things to fit his current whim; see Wookiees into Ewoks for more on this, it's not just a modern thing.

As I get older, I realize the importance of rationalization in our lives. Many here find it acceptable to ignore the many many problems presented by the new films in relation to the original trilogy. If that's what it takes for them to enjoy the hobby, then great. I'm (slowly) coming to the realization for myself that the only way to enjoy and/or accept the new films is to treat them as if they are an entirely different saga altogether. We've seen "fans" who think that showing Anakin become Vader in Ep III would actually be a cool thing and not hurt the original trilogy. That's pretty sad and shows the lack of story sense that so many people possess. Everyday I wake up optimistic that humanity is intelligent, but (usually in stuck on the 405) there is evidence to the contrary.

Oh, well. To each his own I guess.

Tycho
01-06-2002, 03:04 PM
Well, we agree on something again, Stillakid. :)

They should not show Anakin building, or adorning himself in the Darth Vader costume whatsoever!

Preserve The Empire Strikes Back. It was a great movie. The Vader question was a key point.

JediTricks
01-07-2002, 12:14 AM
For me, it's been pick n choose. For example, I believe Anakin may have rebuilt C-3PO, but was not the golden droid's original maker; and then there's my theory on Qui-Gon being dead-wrong about midichlorians; the theory of Qui-Gon possibly being Anakin's real father; just stuff like that. I'll accept that Padme and Anakin are Luke & Leia's parents, but I treat the prequels like a propaganda film, the producers are putting "spin" on certain issues and since it's fiction, I can "spin" it back to something that works for me. :D

Emperor Howdy
01-07-2002, 02:44 AM
Uh-oh.....what am I missing? Why is seeing Anakin getting sliced up (or burned, or whatever) and becoming Vader in Ep.III not cool? I mean, we all already know who he is....the only people who were ever surprised by his identity were us old f*rts who got to see it unravel right before our eyes in '80. Twenty-two years later, there's not a person alive who's never said "Luke...I am your father" in a lame Vader voice (except for me....I never did that...no really...I didn't.....I'm serious, da**it!). It's virtually impossible to retain the mystery, unless you stick a kid in a cocoon and try to have him experience the movies in the manner, order, and with the same naivety that we did. I hear what you're saying, but it's a different state of mind now.....now I want to see Anakin get #$%@ up.

stillakid
01-07-2002, 03:01 AM
Like I said, the best and only way to really watch these things will be in the order that they were made, not in Episode order. Lucas appears to be on your side, not giving a flying f**k about continuity or good storytelling. Watching Vader in any shape or form before Episode IV destroys everything that made the original trilogy great.

Yeah, maybe everybody and their mother does know the secret in this day and age, but wouldn't it just be swell if Lucas could've put in at least a half-a s s e d job to tell a continuous story from 1 to 6? Really, how hard could it have been? Too late now.

Tycho
01-07-2002, 03:13 AM
It's not too late. Nothing we've heard from Episode One or Two has compromised this yet.

Obehave Kenobi
01-07-2002, 03:18 AM
Hey! I've been reading the forums for a couple of days now, and I finally decided to register so I could post.

Anyway, I've been doing a lot of rationalizing myself, basically since Ep.1 came out that I'm starting to question. I don't understand why GL feels the need to connect everything in the trilogy to Anakin. C-3PO is the prime example. Why did Anakin have to build him? I mean, I don't mind him being in the prequels, but they could have just as easily had him as Amidala's protocol droid. This would have eliminated all the problems Anakin's building him causes.

Mainly, why doesn't Anakin recognize C-3PO when he sees him in the classic trilogy? Granted, I'm sure(I know) that Vader has lived a long and eventful life exterminating Jedi and all, and he might not remember him. However, if I built a droid (presumably) from scratch, I know I'd remember him 30 odd years later.

And another thing. This is kind of off topic, but why the Hell would you bring a 9 year old kid into the middle of a war zone when you could leave him safely on another planet, in the care of the Jedi. If he stowed away on board the Queen's ship that's one thing. But to willingly bring him along? What's Qui Gon thinking?

stillakid
01-07-2002, 03:28 AM
It's funny that you mention the bringing Anakin along thing. For no reason in particular, that occured to me earlier in the day as well. Weird.

Yep. You mentioned just a few of the odd bits of storytelling that we've noticed in TPM. Take a trip back through the archives for hours of reading enjoyment on this topic. My personal favorite (as Barada will attest to ;) ) are the posts on Midichlorians. What a crock of sh** they are.

Anyway, thanks for postin'!

Emperor Howdy
01-07-2002, 03:31 AM
Well, you have to consider that QuiGon's decision to bring Anakin along right then was based on him already assuming who Anakin was....QuiGon felt that it was his responsibility to have the "chosen one" introduced to the Council and begin his training........and it was supposed to make for a good movie :D ......but JarJar took care of that :mad:

True, Tycho................now what WILL be even lamer than over-exposing Vader is giving away the Luke/Leia secret....but I guess that is inevitable too.

Obehave Kenobi
01-07-2002, 02:44 PM
Yeah, I know they had to bring him along to advance what passes as the plot of the film, but they could have come up with a better way of getting him there. I.E. having him sneak aboard the ship. That way,once he's found to be there, they'd have no choice but to bring him with them as they attempt to retake the palace, since that would now be the safest place for him to be.

As for Midiclorians, you're damn right they're lame. I personally didn't need a rational (if you can call it that) explanation of how the Force works. Demystifying the Force is NOT the right thing to do.

As for the Luke/Leia question, they could keep SOME of the mystery by only showing Obi Wan taking Luke to safety and by not mentioning either of their names. But what's the likelihood of GL thinking of doing it that way??

JediTricks
01-08-2002, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by Obehave Kenobi
And another thing. This is kind of off topic, but why the Hell would you bring a 9 year old kid into the middle of a war zone when you could leave him safely on another planet, in the care of the Jedi. If he stowed away on board the Queen's ship that's one thing. But to willingly bring him along? What's Qui Gon thinking? First off, welcome aboard!

Secondly, you have a good point, but QGJ rarely seemed to actually think at all, so I guess that's Lucas' excuse. Surely if they didn't like the option of leaving the kid with Yoda, they could have certainly found a safer hiding spot than in the Theed hangar. I guess Lucas wants to show now that everything in SW that's coincidence is actually the Force bending the will of the universe - which I find to be a distasteful "revisioning" of the SW mythos.

stillakid
01-08-2002, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
First off, welcome aboard!

Secondly, you have a good point, but QGJ rarely seemed to actually think at all, so I guess that's Lucas' excuse. Surely if they didn't like the option of leaving the kid with Yoda, they could have certainly found a safer hiding spot than in the Theed hangar. I guess Lucas wants to show now that everything in SW that's coincidence is actually the Force bending the will of the universe - which I find to be a distasteful "revisioning" of the SW mythos.

Oh, but apparently it's all okay. I've learned in the Episode III forum that it's all peachy keen that Lucas is going to have to go back into the original trilogy and change it to make IT fit all the new and better plot stuff in the prequels.

It's been my mistake all along -- the original trilogy was inherently flawed so Lucas is fixing the plot to make it all better! Wow, I can't believe that we've all been so stupid for 20 years. How could we have possibly liked such a piece of crap, that original trilogy? I can hardly wait for the new improved and revamped ANH, ESB, and ROTJ. I just hope that the newer changes will be as ingenious as Greedo firing first.

:crazed:

Obehave Kenobi
01-08-2002, 04:50 PM
Dare we hope and dream? I don't know, I think Greedo firing first was his OPUS. I think you may be setting the bar too high for him, Stillakid. :D

stillakid
01-08-2002, 06:08 PM
Maybe you're right. If you only reach for the middle, you'll usually get it.

Obi-Don
01-08-2002, 08:40 PM
Maybe GL should have went forward instead of back. I still would like to see the clone wars,but just maybe he should have went forward. Haveing Luke rebuilding the Jedi order. Fighting off the rest of whats left on the Empire and things like that. But then that goes into the EU books. It might have been interesting to see them fighting off Thrawn and even bring in Mara Jade. I only bring this up as a different way to go since a lot of people seem to have a problem with the new EP's.

I also should point out that a lot of what has been said here I do agree with. But I also am one of those people who like to know why and how things happened. So I will just put a way the things that I don't care about and just take in what I like and what I am interested in. Its all what you love about Star Wars.The things you like and the things you hate. Different people like different things and in the SW universe there is penty for all. GL may have started this,but it is people like us that carry it on and makes SW our own universe just as we did when we were kids.

JediTricks
01-09-2002, 01:42 AM
Ugh, I really really really hope Lucas doesn't tamper with the classic trilogy further, especially to put Prequel junk into it. That would be the final straw for me, I'd go bananas.

mabudonicus
01-10-2002, 07:15 PM
Indeed, that scene with the(I'm somehow ashamed for knowing this) ASP-7 droid in ANH was bad enough, then greedo... It makes one imagine a scene akin to the pixar stlye animated film "outtakes", only this time Jar Jar and a bunch of gungans would stumble into the final battle between obi-wan and vader, obviously with hilarious(the way kids like it) consequences. Man, that would RULE!!

stillakid
01-13-2002, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Ugh, I really really really hope Lucas doesn't tamper with the classic trilogy further, especially to put Prequel junk into it. That would be the final straw for me, I'd go bananas.


I shudder just typing this, but I don't see anyway else out of this hole he's written himself into. Primarily Midichlorians and Qui Gon. Both of those elements pose serious continuity issues for the Original Trilogy. Bridging the two trilogies is impossible without either removing those two elements from the prequels or including them into the Original Trilogy. I am still aghast at how any writer, no matter how inept, could have possibly not seen what problems Midis and Qui Gonn pose across the board (and equally curious at how some people still can't see it).

Yeah, banana's is right, but I figure if I vent now, maybe I won't squirm in my seat too much later on.:cry:

Wolfwood319
01-13-2002, 01:21 AM
First off, I want to go back to what Stillakid said in his first post...

I disagree...

I think Cousin Oliver was a very innovative and excellent addition to the show in its later seasons.

Back to reality, I don't remember exactly, but hasn't GL said himslef that he's going to redo the OT and rererelease in theaters after E3 comes out? I could be wrong, at this point, I really don't pay attention to anything concerned with the prequels and treat them all as stand-alone films. Almost an "elseworlds" feel to them.

I always considered midi's to be a plot device used to show just how strong "Ani" was with the force. Mind you, it was a very bad plot device, but one nonetheless.

As for Qui-Gon, I didn't like him being in the film, up to Coruscant. I think because I remember reading at some point that the script didn't have him in the film until Coruscant, and it was Obe-Wan himself who went to Naboo and then on to Tatooine. This explains the one picture of Obi-Wan fighting Maul on tatooine, as well as earlier scripts. I think this would've been a far better movie if it happened this way, IMO. If Qui-Gon was just another Jedi who went with Obi back to Naboo to help, and left Midi's out of it altogether.

Actually, if it happened that way, I think the movie would've been really good...

Oh well...

JediTricks
01-13-2002, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
I shudder just typing this, but I don't see anyway else out of this hole he's written himself into. Primarily Midichlorians and Qui Gon. Dude, I'm telling you, my theory on Qui-Gon being totally wrong about Midis could easily be written into Ep 2 or 3 (the theory being that QGJ got the midi issue totally backwards and midis don't cause the Force, they're caused BY the Force kinda like an increased white bloodcell count when someone's sick - making QGJ a totally foolish Jedi and Obi-Wan someone who once "followed the fool" as it were ;)).

What's annoying about QGJ is even Lucas had no use for anybody new like that because QGJ's was written originally as Obi-Wan, but then Lucas seemed to want a big change (sorta late in the game really, since so much work had been done designing Obi-Wan already) by adding another character or something... and the rest is pre-post-history.

stillakid
01-13-2002, 03:23 PM
I didn't really mean to dis Cousin Oliver. I actually know the guy so I'd be in deep sh** if I did anyway. :p

I think that I'd take the Force Exhaust Theory over a complete revamping of the OT, if forced to choose between the two. So long as it was explained fully in the prequels and not ever mentioned again in the OT.

And the QGJ thing is beyond help.

Tycho
01-14-2002, 05:01 AM
When is the Force discussed in the original trilogy?

Obi-Wan's home: "The Force is what gives the Jedi his power. It is an energy field created by all living beings. It surrounds us and penatrates us, it binds the galaxy together."

The rest of ANH's involvement with the Force seems to be practical application of Luke learning to use it for combat techniques, right down to the torpedo run.

The Force is mysterious.

Dagobah - day 2 of training (or thereabouts):

"...for my ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it. Makes it grow. Luminous beings need not this crude matter! You must learn to feel it. Here between us, between the trees and the rocks. Even between the land and the ship."

Again the Force seems to tie in to the very fabric of the universe.

Dagobah, day 3 of training (or thereabouts): "Through the Force you will see things: the future; the past; old friends long gone."

Now the concept of time is even referred to - as possibly in Life's eternal sense of itself.

I'm not sure what the word 'entropy' means, but perhaps it is a good way of describing the Force - as the universe's constant expansion and cycles of its very essense, right down to the molecular level. And sentient life that is evolved enough and in tune with it can sense this essence through abilities transferred by genetic gifts.

Midi-chlorians could very well be specialized cells that are genetically adapted to be tuned into the very universe that nurtured them, and some people have a high count and awareness of this at some level.

You would think that with 5,000 years or more of there existing Jedi history, and probably much, much longer of the history of Force-sensitive individuals who achieved incredible things, that someone would have found scientific biological evidence theorizing or proving what makes an individual Force-sensitive. To not study this phenomenon is to claim to value ignorance. Neither the Jedi nor a society dedicated to the scientific achievements necessary to build 'Death Stars' seem to value ignorance.

Furthermore, knowledge is power and the gaining of information that might be useful to one seeking power would logically induce further study of that information to work towards one's advantage.

If there are midi-chlorians - can I become a Jedi (or Sith) by CLONING THEM and injecting myself with them?

Does SPICE induce extra activities of a normal person's low midi-chlorian count?

Can I CLONE Force-sensitive troops or minions, or even create a child I force upon a slave to carry and give birth to in order to fulfill and then twist my enemy's superstitious prophesies?

Midi-chlorians must be useful to the direction the prequels are headed in or they didn't need to be included.

Because fans don't have the answers in one prequel (or in 2) they think they can just state it was a pointless, dumb idea? What do the fans know? They prefer ignorance (about the Force's true nature) or that they like a mystery with no reality check - such as "why in 5,000 plus years no one has bothered to learn 'what makes a Jedi tick'?"

They do not negate anything from the Original Trilogy. But what purpose did Luke have for information about midi-chlorians? He already knew he was strong in the Force. He may have been tested as a baby - so Yoda and Ben knew. At least Yoda knew Leia was his sister. And there were no other Jedi - and Luke didn't need to find and train more until he faced his own Dark Side and dealt with his father - Luke's own personal trial. Information on midi-chlorians would have only added to information burdens he was already dealing with. Then Luke was the last of the Jedi and this discussion really doesn't have to get into EU - as that's not what most people are talking about.

But other fans should realize this:

Empire told us that Vader was Luke's father, but never explained how.

All the OT told us the Force existed, but never explained how.

The mysteries are over. The prequels are all about explaining how, when, and why.

That's why they are prequels. Get used to it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to Qui-Gon, he was my Ep1 Favorite Character and Liam did an awesome job and shined in his role. His scenes with Anakin were the best.

The point is, why did Obi-Wan fail? Why did he get a padawan at such an early stage in his own training when he likely wasn't ready for it.

Why did Qui-Gon insist on training Anakin when he was too old? The whole point was a baby wouldn't have family loyalties and worldly ties (like podracing, or a treatment of life as something separated from accepting the Will of the Force). No mother in slavery should upset a Jedi - or be in their minds while in development during their formative years. No death of a fellow or friend Jedi (or Master even) should be treated as horrible or something to prevent at all costs (including means that lead to the Dark Side), but Death in the line of duty for a Jedi should be accepted as the Will of the Force. Breaking this rule was illustrated by Obi-Wan when he filled with rage when Maul killed his master. What happened - he rushed in to things and forgot about Maul's own mastery of the Force, which the Dark Lord used to nearly throw Obi-Wan to his death. When Obi-Wan recalled his training, he recalled Qui-Gon's lightsaber to finish the duel - as a Jedi. Anakin cannot forget his mother, his feelings for Padme, and his need to prove himself through competition and the seeking of rewards, glory, or power. That Obi-Wan nearly forgot his training shows you he wasn't ready. That Anakin was an inappropriate choice was already proven. So why does it all come to be?

Qui-Gon. And since we'll be learning that Count Dooku / Darth Tyranus was Qui-Gon's master, there may be more to it than even that!

Why can't fans wait until 2005 to b**ch about something they don't entirely know about. Will the hypocrites say Lucas was a genius then? Suppose for one second that he is: won't the TPM bashers (for these reasons) feel like idiots then?

Who knows: will those people ever even be capable of thinking outside the box? I guess we'll see. But by 2005 I suspect a different song could be sung about TPM with some hindsight.

stillakid
01-14-2002, 09:37 AM
"When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot, but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. I thought that I could train him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

Who said that and when? The answer to that is the reason why Qui Gonn is an absolutely useless character.


--------------------------


"A small Rebel Force has landed on Endor. My son is with them."

"Are you sure?"

"I've felt him, my master."

"Strange that I have not."

That is just one of many instances where the Midi Theory collapses. Midi's are apparently non-political go-betweens between the user and the Force. If the Emperor didn't "feel" Luke's presence, then his Midi's aren't up to specs. There are more examples, but this one sums it up.


---------------------------


And no one bashed, or is bashing the ESB, and it's loose ends, because all of the plot points introduced then were entirely plausible within the scope of the known story at that time. TPM, however, has elements which conflict with the known story (read: the original trilogy) up until the current moment, which by my calendar is January 2002. Despite speculation, very few people actually know what the next two episodes will contain, so all of us "TPM-haters" choose to critique based on known facts...not guesses at what the future will bring.


I'm certain that more information will be given concerning Midichlorians and the background politics, however, as it stands, very little of what we actually know works with the previously told story...and again, nothing will fix the fact that Qui Gonn took over Obi Wan's storyline.:)

Jedi Clint
01-14-2002, 11:10 PM
I don't see any reason why Qui Gon doesn't work within the given context of the SW saga. Yoda trains young Jedi when he isn't sitting on the council. We "may" be given a glimpse of him doing exactly that in AOTC ;).

As for the midi's......why would the Emperor's inability to sense Luke's presence on Endor, be indicative of their lack of cohesion with the OT? Perhaps when one uses the force as Palpatine or Vader do (for evil purposes) they lose the ability to detect others presence in the force?? Palpatine escapes detection by the Jedi Council even though he deals with them on a regular basis. I don't think the issue of how one senses another in the force has ever been fully addressed in any film. Vader can sense Kenobi (no surprise...he spent 10 or so years with the guy, he should be capable of recognizing the impression he leaves in the force), he senses Luke on Endor (he had been in his presence on Bespin so he may have been able to recognize his son's signature from that encounter....that and it is probably similar to his own). I think that statement by Palpatine indicates that Vader's affection for his son is allowing him to sense him where Palpatine (who doesn't care about Luke) could not sense him. It seems like he was expressing his disapproval of Vader's emotional attachment to his son.

They may use it later in E3, when having a high midi count makes you a target for the Empire's wrath. I see Tycho's point about waiting until we see the full picture to judge how one peice works with another.

stillakid
01-14-2002, 11:26 PM
Maybe. But try this "rephrasing" on for size:

Here's the original:

"When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot, but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. I thought that I could train him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."


Here's what Lucas would have to do to the OT to make it work:

"When my master, Qui Gonn, first knew him, Qui Gonn told me that your father was already a great pilot, but Qui Gonn was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. Qui Gonn thought that he could train him just as well as Yoda. Well, he got killed after dragging the young boy into a war zone for no reason, so even though I agreed with the Council about how dangerous the boy was, I decided to train Anakin anyway, even though I'd never seen the boy fly or witnessed anything out of the ordinary with him, beyond a huge Midichlorian count which I did myself with a conveniently placed Midichlorian counter that was on the Queen's ship. Oh, she was your mother, by the way."


Okay, so I get a little sarcastic there, but the essence of what TPM has done to the Original Trilogy is still there. Hey, I didn't write Old Ben's dialogue. Lucas did (most likely Huyck and Kasdan actually).

Don't get me wrong, I wanted to like TPM. I really really did, just like everybody else did. No, I mean it. I can see that you still don't believe me. I don't go out looking for trouble in these films. There are minor (really minor) hiccups in the other movies, but TPM had some doozies. I'm just callin' em like I see 'em. He f'd up, plain and simple. No amount of rationalization will change it. I'm just as interested as the next guy to see how he writes himself out of this corner, although my current bet is that he'll just reedit the original trilogy so it fits whatever wacky ideas come about in the prequels. That'll be a shame, because the whole freakin' world loved ANH, ESB, and ROTJ just the way they were (okay, there was that Ewok thing). What has possessed him to want to change them? We'll probably never know.

Jedi Clint
01-14-2002, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Maybe. But try this "rephrasing" on for size:

Here's the original:

"When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot, but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. I thought that I could train him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."


Here's what Lucas would have to do to the OT to make it work:

"When my master, Qui Gonn, first knew him, Qui Gonn told me that your father was already a great pilot, but Qui Gonn was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. Qui Gonn thought that he could train him just as well as Yoda. Well, he got killed after dragging the young boy into a war zone for no reason, so even though I agreed with the Council about how dangerous the boy was, I decided to train Anakin anyway, even though I'd never seen the boy fly or witnessed anything out of the ordinary with him, beyond a huge Midichlorian count which I did myself with a conveniently placed Midichlorian counter that was on the Queen's ship. Oh, she was your mother, by the way."



I disagree. That may be what it takes for it to work for you, but the way I see it:

When Kenobi first knew Anakin - Anakin's skills at piloting a pod racer was what got them off the dust ball. He probably learned later that he had jumped behind the controls of an unfamiliar space fighter and saved the day. That statement does not indicate when Kenobi discovered what a great pilot Anakin was....it only indicates that at some point he realized that he was already a great pilot when they first met. He knew that Anakin was extremely strong with the force because he analyzed the blood sample (and he did seem pretty amazed with his midi count). So he left out how he came to train Anakin.....he was about to tell/telling a huge lie anyway, why start with a huge helping of the truth? His intention was to motivate Luke to follow in his "perfect" father's footsteps so he would follow him off world. He also tapped into Luke's rebellious feelings regarding Owen to accomplish that goal.

It is only your opinion that George "f'd up" (and your entitled to it). It is not a fact.

Tycho
01-15-2002, 05:33 AM
I couldn't have said it better than Jedi Clint. - on everything back to Endor, the Emperor, etc.

That's what I always thought. I wonder how many other people did, too?

stillakid
01-15-2002, 03:45 PM
I don't know how it could be worded, but maybe there could be a poll to find out who backs up your "what if, and maybe he was thinking, and how about if he really meant to say" way of looking at the saga, or my "that's what was said, so I'll take it at face value" stance?

I think that it essentially boils down to how much credit you want to afford Lucas as some kind of intricate storyteller. Everything that I've seen created by him has been rather simplistic with one, maybe two layers working. You guys seem to believe that there is a whole lot more going on, and has been intended, from the start. Based on his own precendent, I haven't been able to give him that much credit. I don't think that his storytelling style is that complicated. He weaves in a lot of influences (DUNE, Japanese culture, Hindu, Flash Gordon, Wizard of Oz, etc) but the way I see it, it's done out of emulation on a purely superficial level (read: it looks good on camera).

Aside from that, the story has been a really simple one: loner boy gets accidently caught up in events which ultimately fulfill his dreams. Along the way, he gathers up a motley crew and they enter the dragon's lair to rescue the beautiful princess. The twist in this tale is that the dragon turns out to be the boy's father so boy must save his father's soul from ultimate destruction at the hands of the Devil himself.

Lucas threw in the Force, which boils down to being a tool for the heroes and villians to use against each other. They can move stuff around without touching it. Luke "saw" the future with it which propelled the plot forward. In Pinocchio, it was a magic bird or something that delivered the note, in Star Wars, it's the Force. Just a simple plat device, like a gun hidden in a drawer, only now Lucas is trying to explain to us what a gun is.

That's about as deep as it has gone so far. Like I said, not much depth there. Maybe a couple levels deep, but certainly no convoluted conspiracies within conspiracies like I've seen suggested. I don't think that Lucas has that kind of plot development in him. A guy like Frank Herbert pulled it off, but it just isn't Lucas' bag.

But I'm sure that you disagree! :) Maybe the guy is as deep as the oceans are wide. Could be. I just haven't seen any clear evidence of it so far in any of his work. But then again...(read my tag line)

Cheers!

Tycho
01-15-2002, 04:21 PM
I'm a Star TREK fan because I like 'deep.'

Star Wars was never supposed to be to any huge extent. Palpatine's political subterfuge is certainly complicated, but Lucas leaves a lot of that to our imagination - or the EU writers'. No problem there: Star Wars is fun, and I have fun using my imagination to add a level of complexity I like to it.

There are basics like good vs. evil, a space-opera story about the Skywalker family tree, and some implications in there about which type of government is more effective: a Republic or a Dictatorship.

We see motivations for evil in the story, and can reflect upon them as well as the Dark Side of ourselves.

But much of what he's doing is composing a 'musical' or impressionist theater production that plays to our emotions and allows us to escape in it.

When I think of Star Trek by comparison, what I think the biggest difficulty Star Wars fans have with it is not enough passion - not enough appeal to emotions and the need for Action in an escapist form of entertainment. This is hardly true of all Star Trek, but many of you didn't religiously watch the entire 4 year war that was raging on Deep Space Nine - or witness moments in The Next Generation when Worf's girl was brutally murdered and Worf slew his wife's assailant in cold blood. That was passion. In many aspects though, Star Trek has lacked a passionate, human male lead viewers can identify with since Captain Kirk's day.

But they do have more new stuff going on week to week with new shows versus 3 year waiting periods, and it gets 'deep' for those that like this.

I don't try and make Star Wars out to be more than what it is. But Star Wars is my favorite because I feel that emotional connection with it - especially in moments like when Luke totally loses it and attacks his father with no relenting until he ultimately defeats Darth Vader! Or when all that is good - that is hope for love and certainty of truth in emotion - all of that is wiped out in the smoke and clashing lights and sounds of a carbon freezing chamber in one of the most passionate scenes in movie history!

It takes one kind of genius to write "deep," - philosophical, meaningful intelligence - but I submit it takes another kind of genius to take ideas and make them words on paper, then actual filming directions, script, and evoked emotion from their actors. George Lucas is the latter kind of genius.

Someday perhaps I'll get the chance to try and do a project like a Star Wars movie for fun - maybe a fan film based on a story I write. But it is very difficult to translate that to the finished product you see on screen - and I appreciate George Lucas' ability to do that.

Jedi Clint
01-15-2002, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
I don't know how it could be worded, but maybe there could be a poll to find out who backs up your "what if, and maybe he was thinking, and how about if he really meant to say" way of looking at the saga, or my "that's what was said, so I'll take it at face value" stance?


I don't care how deep Lucas is honestly.
A few questions though......

I take it that you aimed your last post at me (if I am wrong about that, please disregard the following):

Where are my "what if"s?
Where are my "maybe he was thinking"s?
Where are my "how about if he really meant to say"s?

I don't see where I had to reach anywhere near as far as your description of my take on things seems intended to indicate.

-----------------------------------
Anakin's pod racer piloting skills helped the heros of TPM escape Tattooine.

I suppose that Kenobi may have never been aware that Anakin blew up the droid control ship whilst behind the controls of an unfamiliar star fighter, but that is why I included "probably" in that sentence. I think this is the biggest leap of faith I made in the entire post.

Kenobi seemed impressed with Anakin's blood sample analysis.

Kenobi's statement did not indicate when he became aware of Anakin's skills as a pilot, it only indicates that at some point he realized that he was already a great pilot when they first met.


Kenobi lied to Luke during their intial converstation.

Kenobi tapped into Luke's rebellious feelings toward Owen. This is probably the second biggest assumption I made. I just figured that he knew Luke felt obligated to stay and help Owen, so his version of Luke's family history could have been used to prey upon any rebellious feelings that Luke held toward Owen.

Kenobi made no mention of any wrong-doing by Anakin.

Kenobi wanted Luke to come with him to Alderaan.
----------------------------------

Do you disagree. If so, with what part(s) exactly?

I admit that I skipped in my logic a bit to another part of this discussion with reference to Luke and Ben's intial conversation, but I had previously addressed the Yoda training issue. Just to clarify my position on it.......

In AOTC we "may" see Yoda training Jedi who have yet to become Padawans. It was mentioned in the novel for TPM that Yoda trained Kenobi at a young age before he was taken as a Padawan by Qui Gon. It seems that the writer (Lucas) had to work a little to iron out the wrinkle Obi Wan's statement, "....Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." presents to the continuity of the films. I don't think it is a perfect resolution, but I don't think it is terrible either. You may have a differing opinion on how well that issue is being resolved. ;)

None the less, Kenobi's statements - "I thought that I could train him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong." indicates that he feels that Yoda was better at training Jedi than he was. No problem there.

I simply gave my interpretation of the statement in dispute given the current context of the SW saga. Was there a right or wrong way to interpret it? With the quote above, were you trying to devalue my take on the statement while at the same time build up your "that's what was said, so I'll take it at face value" stance? Honestly? I am not upset, just curious. I took the statement at face value as well. And what would holding a poll to see how many users support who's take on this accomplish?

I have revised my statement on the matter to exclude unneccessary info, and address the "as well as Yoda" portion of the phrase in dispute (I also changed "probably" to "may have" ;) )......


When Kenobi first knew Anakin - Anakin's skills at piloting a pod racer was what got them off the dust ball. He may have learned later that he had jumped behind the controls of an unfamiliar space fighter and saved the day. That statement does not indicate when Kenobi discovered what a great pilot Anakin was....it only indicates that at some point he realized that he was already a great pilot when they first met. He knew that Anakin was extremely strong with the force because he analyzed the blood sample (and he did seem pretty amazed with his midi count). Kenobi's statements - "I thought that I could train him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong." indicates that he feels that Yoda was better at training Jedi than he was.

El Chuxter
01-15-2002, 06:10 PM
From a scientific viewpoint, if Qui-Gon was correct about midis, it makes sense that Vader could sense Luke and Palpy couldn't. Luke has midichlorions. Amidala didn't. The midis in Luke, assuming they're transmitted genetically, are all from Vader. So--outside of the emotional and experiential recognition Jedi Clint referred to--they should be familiar to Vader.

And why would Obi-Wan tell Luke about Qui-Gon? Imagine. . . .

"When my master, Qui-Gon first met your father--
"Who's Qui-Gon?"
"Qui-Gon was my master. We first met when I was twelve--
"So you didn't know you were strong in the Force until you were twelve?"
"No, I didn't say that, Luke. I was raised in the Jedi Temple--
"A whole Jedi TEMPLE? Wow! Where was this--
"On the planet Coruscant--
"Where's that?"
"It's called Imperial Center now. But back to my story. . . ."

Obi-Wan may have had time to tell this, but it wasn't pertinent at the time. And can you imagine how much extraneous detail it'd be to the audience?

I know Qui-Gon, midis, the Jedi Temple, etc, etc, etc weren't thought of for years after the Classic Trilogy, but do you see the point I'm getting at, from purely a storytelling point of view?

Tycho
01-15-2002, 07:12 PM
Nicely done Chuxter. Nicely done.:happy:

stillakid
01-15-2002, 08:09 PM
Like I said, I take it at face value. If the only way for you to enjoy the saga is to create fantasy "spin" dialogue that only happened in the minds of the characters, then more power to you. Rationalization makes the world go round. :)

I still don't see why Midi's, being as important as you all claim they are, would be just conveniently forgotten about in later years. Maybe in Luke's preliminary "on the run" training with Ben, you could make a case for not mentioning them, but we are led to believe that Yoda went for the full semester lesson. It's a weak argument to suggest that Yoda didn't mention Midi's onscreen because, well, it's been a long time and they've been forgotten about. And you might come back by saying, "well, Luke left his training early, so Yoda just didn't get to it." Again, not plausible based on previous assertions about just how pivotal Midi's are to becoming a Jedi. Remember, the characters in a story aren't really telling each other information, they are telling the audience. Don't you think something so huge should be told to the audience? To Luke?:confused:

Spirit of Obi Wan had all the time in the world to sit and tell Luke the whole story. Your own potential dialogue shows just how ridiculous the notion of a Qui Gon character is, just as mine did. Writing a hypothesis about what a character just might be thinking is in no way proof of the theory, as Tycho wants to believe. (It just goes to show you, people develop an opinion, then seek out anything that hints at support, credible or not, and ignore everything else. There are actual studies about this behavior. :happy: )

But from a storytelling point of view, as you put it, again Lucas appears to have screwed up, because if Midi's and Qui Gon were so important as to be defended so vigorously by you, then where are they in the OT? If they are that important, they should have been mentioned. Leaving out such vital plot elements seems to be a huge storytelling error. :sur:

But, I've gone and repeated myself for the umpteenth time, and I apologize to our listeners. I've said it before, I'll say it again: I take what information the writers have actually given us and base my understanding and enjoyment of the story from that. You spin "what ifs" and "what he was really thinkings" to bridge the problems that I and others have brought up. It just comes down to different ways of experiencing movies and storytelling in general. :cool:

So my question at this point is this: Did any of you see these problems initially and bridge those gaps at that time, the way you are trying to do here? Or have the films flowed seamlessly and utterly airtight from start to finish, and you first heard of viewer discontent after logging on here?

stillakid
01-15-2002, 08:16 PM
My "updater" had me miss a whole bunch of posts before responding to Tycho's last, so if I misquoted or just plain mis-anythinged, I apologize. I promise to review the posts that I didn't see and make amends if necessary. Stay tuned!


Thanks for the discussion! Despite my obstinance, it's refreshing to see different takes on the same material. It just goes to show you that if you want an audience to see your movie in a certain way, you have to be really clear about what ends up on screen.:)

stillakid
01-15-2002, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint


I don't care how deep Lucas is honestly.
A few questions though......

I take it that you aimed your last post at me (if I am wrong about that, please disregard the following):

Where are my "what if"s?
Where are my "maybe he was thinking"s?
Where are my "how about if he really meant to say"s?

I don't see where I had to reach anywhere near as far as your description of my take on things seems intended to indicate.

-----------------------------------
Anakin's pod racer piloting skills helped the heros of TPM escape Tattooine.

I suppose that Kenobi may have never been aware that Anakin blew up the droid control ship whilst behind the controls of an unfamiliar star fighter, but that is why I included "probably" in that sentence. I think this is the biggest leap of faith I made in the entire post.

Kenobi seemed impressed with Anakin's blood sample analysis.

Kenobi's statement did not indicate when he became aware of Anakin's skills as a pilot, it only indicates that at some point he realized that he was already a great pilot when they first met.


Kenobi lied to Luke during their intial converstation.

Kenobi tapped into Luke's rebellious feelings toward Owen. This is probably the second biggest assumption I made. I just figured that he knew Luke felt obligated to stay and help Owen, so his version of Luke's family history could have been used to prey upon any rebellious feelings that Luke held toward Owen.

Kenobi made no mention of any wrong-doing by Anakin.

Kenobi wanted Luke to come with him to Alderaan.
----------------------------------

Do you disagree. If so, with what part(s) exactly?

I admit that I skipped in my logic a bit to another part of this discussion with reference to Luke and Ben's intial conversation, but I had previously addressed the Yoda training issue. Just to clarify my position on it.......

In AOTC we "may" see Yoda training Jedi who have yet to become Padawans. It was mentioned in the novel for TPM that Yoda trained Kenobi at a young age before he was taken as a Padawan by Qui Gon. It seems that the writer (Lucas) had to work a little to iron out the wrinkle Obi Wan's statement, "....Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." presents to the continuity of the films. I don't think it is a perfect resolution, but I don't think it is terrible either. You may have a differing opinion on how well that issue is being resolved. ;)

None the less, Kenobi's statements - "I thought that I could train him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong." indicates that he feels that Yoda was better at training Jedi than he was. No problem there.

I simply gave my interpretation of the statement in dispute given the current context of the SW saga. Was there a right or wrong way to interpret it? With the quote above, were you trying to devalue my take on the statement while at the same time build up your "that's what was said, so I'll take it at face value" stance? Honestly? I am not upset, just curious. I took the statement at face value as well. And what would holding a poll to see how many users support who's take on this accomplish?

I have revised my statement on the matter to exclude unneccessary info, and address the "as well as Yoda" portion of the phrase in dispute (I also changed "probably" to "may have" ;) )......


When Kenobi first knew Anakin - Anakin's skills at piloting a pod racer was what got them off the dust ball. He may have learned later that he had jumped behind the controls of an unfamiliar space fighter and saved the day. That statement does not indicate when Kenobi discovered what a great pilot Anakin was....it only indicates that at some point he realized that he was already a great pilot when they first met. He knew that Anakin was extremely strong with the force because he analyzed the blood sample (and he did seem pretty amazed with his midi count). Kenobi's statements - "I thought that I could train him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong." indicates that he feels that Yoda was better at training Jedi than he was.


I was doing coverage on a friend's script the other day and there was a problem with one of the main characters. Something that I didn't understand correctly. Essentially, he had intended the character to be assumed to be one thing, but the way I felt it read, she was something completely different.

That led him into a story that he'd heard about a divorce case where the guy lost almost his entire fortune because a comma was in the wrong place. It should have been after a word, but it had erroneously been place before it.

I think that our lively discussions here at times fall victim to that kind of misunderstanding. The lines are so fine between the "may have's" and actual screen events that accuracy in this kind of critique becomes critical. I haven't yet, but I could go scene by scene through TPM and point out the actual scenes that I believe contradict elements of the OT. As laborious as that would be, it's probably the only way to thoroughly discuss this topic because once the dominos start to fall, you can't stop it. It's difficult to just jump into a problem that falls in the middle and sound credible. We just end up backtracking and jumping from point to point in no logical manner. We're just spinning our wheels here and getting all upset over differences in opinion. Silly, huh? :D

Tycho
01-16-2002, 03:15 AM
Originally posted by stillakid


So my question at this point is this: Did any of you see these problems initially and bridge those gaps at that time, the way you are trying to do here?

Yes. Because I realize Lucas wrote Qui-Gon and midi-chlorians after the fact. But as you say, I rationalized it to be attributed to George wanting to write a great story that made sense.

Some questions had to be answered:

1) Why did Obi-Wan fail to train Anakin?
2) What made this dude so special that HE was the one to betray the Jedi?

Lucas invented the answers

1) Obi-Wan was too young to take on an apprentice (so how did he get one?)

2) Anakin was too old - his past affected his training too much.

Since he invented the story to 4, 5,and 6 - he has every right to invent things for 1, 2,and 3.


Or have the films flowed seamlessly and utterly airtight from start to finish, and you first heard of viewer discontent after logging on here?

I care deeply about The Legend of Star Wars, so I read all the spoiler material from the most reliable sources (TFN for one) as soon as it becomes available. So my feelings, puzzlement, and then careful thought through up to the point of acceptance came before I even saw TPM, or read the novel (which I did as well before I saw the movie). I ended up really liking the idea of Qui-Gon, way before I found I loved what Liam Neeson brought to the role.

Now on to midi-chlorians - we knew that Force-sensitivity was transfered genetically from father to son and daughter from the OT. It could have been something located in the left ear-lobe, the gall bladder, or it could have been midi-chlorians. They didn't have to be mentioned by name before. Now it is relevant.

I still don't see why Midi's, being as important as you all claim they are, would be just conveniently forgotten about in later years. Maybe in Luke's preliminary "on the run" training with Ben, you could make a case for not mentioning them, but we are led to believe that Yoda went for the full semester lesson. It's a weak argument to suggest that Yoda didn't mention Midi's onscreen because, well, it's been a long time and they've been forgotten about. And you might come back by saying, "well, Luke left his training early, so Yoda just didn't get to it." Again, not plausible based on previous assertions about just how pivotal Midi's are to becoming a Jedi.

Luke was already known to have inherited his father's midi-chlorians. Why was it important to tell him exactly why he could use the Force beyond that it was a genetic gift. His instruction was hurried - but intended to teach him to USE the Force, not explain it.

By contrast Anakin was around all the midi-chlorian talk in the Jedi Council and presumably was blood-tested off screen by the Council who likely questioned even Qui-Gon's bloodwork on the boy, so Anakin asks Qui-Gon a direct question about them, so Lucas can use that as a tell-all scene.

Again, midi-chlorians weren't around or conceived of by name when the OT was done, but it was genetic. Cells, amino-acids, pus, bile, mucas, T-cells, passing gas - I don't care what the biological device used to transmit genetically inherited Force capabilities was called - it happened in the ORIGINAL TRILOGY. Now Lucas named them midi-chlorians. Take that at face-value.


Remember, the characters in a story aren't really telling each other information, they are telling the audience. Don't you think something so huge should be told to the audience? To Luke?:confused:

It was told to the audience.

"The Force is strong in my family. My father has it. I have it. And...my sister has it."

With that information, does anyone wonder why Han Solo does Not have it? How about R2D2? I think family, genetics, etc. is self-explanatory. How come Chewbacca wasn't Luke's sister? I mean what needs to be explained here.

"Well, Luke it has to do with genetics. You see, there's something called DNA and a Wookiee's DNA is different from a humans. You see, you are human, and Chewbacca is a Wookiee."

Luke: "Oh, well how come I am not related to R2D2 then?"

"Well, let's stay on one subject at a time. The other reason Chewbacca is not your sister also has to do with genetics, Luke. Chewie and you are both males. Now there exists something called women... you've seen one in a hologram. Now do you remember Aunt Beru? She was different from you and Uncle Owen, wasn't she?"

Well, I needn't go on. Most of the viewing audience understood These parts of the movie....


But from a storytelling point of view, as you put it, again Lucas appears to have screwed up, because if Midi's and Qui Gon were so important as to be defended so vigorously by you, then where are they in the OT? If they are that important, they should have been mentioned. Leaving out such vital plot elements seems to be a huge storytelling error. :sur:

Like I said, midi's didn't exist then (behind the scenes in the Star Wars factoid bible). There was no error. It was unnecessary to further complicate the story with a biology lesson. As my very stupid example illustrates, most people were smart enough to realize that Force-sensitivity was genetically inherited, and there was no cloning, having of children, or need for testing for Force-sensitivity in the Original Trilogy, so it wasn't necessary.

'Alluvial Dampeners' help the Millennium Falcon go into hyperspace in The Empire Strikes Back. They weren't mentioned in ANH, does this mean the Falcon should not have been able to go into lightspeed without an explanation?

Give me a break.

stillakid
01-16-2002, 05:14 PM
What do you mean, "gimme a break," as if you answered those questions leaving no shred of doubt?

Like I said, whatever stretching you need to do to enjoy the films, more power to you.

What I do know is that the vast majority of professional movie reviewers and just about everybody that I know in this neck of the woods was just as confused and/or disappointed as I have been with the direction TPM took the saga. Does that prove I'm right? No, not really. I don't know specifically why other people weren't as taken with TPM as they wanted to be and it would be folly to speak for them.

What's that you say? It was a big hit and lots of people saw it? Of course! It was like the third Boston album. People had been waiting for years for the follow up. But like Third Stage, something was missing. In my case it was a proper plot, good pacing, and loyalty to the original three.

I've tried to explain here, as well as others, where that discontent came from, perhaps hoping for some reasonable explanations that would convince me otherwise. Sadly, it hasn't happened.

But most importantly! Even if you and the other three or four guys are 100% correct in your defense of TPM, any film that needs this much after-the-fact explanation and/or defense has serious problems somewhere.

And that's the real tragedy, because I truly believe that he was really close to having a great movie to bring in the next generation just like he brought us in. All the elements were there, but with a couple extraneous and problematic ones. A little rewrite and poof! Airtight movie.

Oh well. What's done is done. Some people like it. Great. Others don't. Great. The world keeps spinning. (but I'm sure that somebody will argue that too.) :rolleyes:

Tycho
01-16-2002, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by stillakid

What's that you say? It was a big hit and lots of people saw it? Of course! It was like the third Boston album. People had been waiting for years for the follow up. But like Third Stage, something was missing. In my case it was a proper plot, good pacing, and loyalty to the original three.

I'm not sure I understand "loyalty to the other three." Do you mean that the prequels should ONLY talk about subjects directly taken and refferred to at Face Value in the Original Trilogy and there should be nothing more to them? These might be short and rather non-entertaining movies with even less of a story to them. But please clarify "loyalty to the other three." I don't think TPM explains everything that a SET of 3 Movies intends to do, but that wasn't the point. Lucas did not make it as a stand alone movie. For that matter, ONLY ANH was made to be a stand alone movie.

I've tried to explain here, as well as others, where that discontent came from, perhaps hoping for some reasonable explanations that would convince me otherwise. Sadly, it hasn't happened.

No, so far you've been real clear about what you were discontent about. I don't hear the other silent millions chiming in yet - hope they do and further explore your points - but also that they read the discussion that preceeded this so we can progress and not repeat ourselves. In the end, I'm sure we'll agree to disagree, but we've still much to learn about each others' points of view.


But most importantly! Even if you and the other three or four guys are 100% correct in your defense of TPM, any film that needs this much after-the-fact explanation and/or defense has serious problems somewhere.

Star Wars is getting our attention - that's Lucas' real point of interest at this stage. We're entertained by discussing this just as when in 1980 people debated whether Darth Vader was truly Luke's father or not. So we'll all see the next movie to find out how it plays out. In this case, much of the debate will be whether things mesh and play true to what we envisioned the past to be according to the Original Trilogy. Perhaps Lucas might have made Episode 3, then 2, then #1. LOL, I'm not sure that would have or have not helped. But every cast member would have to be recast as they will keep getting older while their characters get younger :happy:

And that's the real tragedy, because I truly believe that he was really close to having a great movie to bring in the next generation just like he brought us in. All the elements were there, but with a couple extraneous and problematic ones. A little rewrite and poof! Airtight movie.

By these changes, I can assume you mean making Obi-Wan Anakin's master from almost the get-go and never explaining how the Force is inherited in biological detail.

So - when Obi-Wan fails to train Anakin, it is assumed it is because Obi-Wan was a lousy Jedi Knight? He wasn't properly trained? How come? Who was Obi-Wan's master?

OK - if Obi-Wan is a good guy - why would he make such a big mistake and train Anakin?

LUCAS: "Because he was too young and inexperienced to take on a padawan."

Why did he do that? Oh - because Qui-Gon died and Obi-Wan sort of inherited this problem.

Why would the Council allow this?

LUCAS: "There's this deal about Anakin being really special because he has more Force in him than most of the other Jedi - JUST BECAUSE - and the fans won't let me say there are midi-chlorians or how the Jedi quantify them, so Anakin has more Force in him "JUST BECAUSE."

Also, the High Jedi Council gives in to Obi-Wan's wishes to train Anakin 'just because' Qui-Gon's dying wish was for this? No there is a history of responsibility for the Apprentice to fulfill obligations of the Master (to Anakin's mother for one- "I'll look out for him.") and there is a history of Qui-Gon repeatedly bothering the Council with his breaches of the Jedi rules - which we may learn has something to do with Qui-Gon's own training.

Oh - so these things need to be established in the prequels?

Next you'll say "well wait a minute: Count Dooku wasn't mentioned in Episode One. Neither was Jango Fett."

That's ok, I will start a petition to remove Jango Fett and Dooku from the movies because they weren't in Episode One. (I'm being sarcastic)

Oh well. What's done is done. Some people like it. Great. Others don't. Great. The world keeps spinning. (but I'm sure that somebody will argue that too.) :rolleyes:

The world is not spinning. It is rotating slowly on its axis:D .

stillakid
01-17-2002, 12:32 AM
I like the 3,2,1 thing. Kind of a Mork baby way of going about it.

Hmm, I think that my general discontent harkens back to the title of this thread. After seeing TPM and from the few preliminary reports about Ep II (I don't read spoilers ever), the prequels are essentially what we'd expect to see in Expanded Universe spinoffs. There's nothing wrong with having those kinds of stories out there, but I terms of the way in which he began telling this tale of this galaxy with the OT, they don't match.

For instance, the whole lil' Fett thing. Great, mean ol' nasty bounty hunter Boba Fett has a past, a father, got his ship from someplace, but none of that has a place in the primary story about the downfall of the Republic. A filmmaker has only got 2 hours to tell the story and all this extraneous explanation stuff takes precious time away from a much bigger and better story. (As a quick example, the Han getting rescued from Jabba's palace sequence is guilty of this. It's an interesting sequence, but it's more about the cameraderie of the heroes and not so much about the bigger picture. Cameraderie is fine, but it shouldn't become half of a movie. It should come about in little doses while in the midst of telling the bigger story.)

As far as the Midichlorians go, you're taking my objection out of context. I don't feel that they belong at all in the Universe because they weren't established with the initial rulebook on what the Force is and how it works. Having said that, it isn't fair to extrapolate that reasoning to suggest that other things shouldn't appear earlier (or later) because they weren't mentioned previously. If you do that, you're missing the point about the Midi's.

I'm trying hard to condense this into a basic statement, but bear with me if it doesn't work: Midi's don't don't belong because they weren't mentioned previously. They don't belong because they weren't established at a time when they should have been established with the rest of the Force. A writer that sets up the possiblities and the limitations of any given story element, and then brings in an eleventh hour amendment should be hanged. It's not fair to the audience and is just poor writing. And in this particular case, after careful review of the evidence, I've come to believe that it isn't only bad writing, it is detrimental to the established continuity.

At the same time, something like lil' Boba can exist because the character obviously has a past, but I'm objecting to his inclusion because it's completely unnecessary to the telling of the larger story. Pulling his past life out of EU and putting it up on a big screen is a wholly gratutious gesture to play upon the nostalgia of an audience who grew to adore a B character. It's really the same issue as Rick dropping a press release announcing that a popular boy band would be in the movie. Nothing more than marketing... and the Batman and Robin franchise should have taught everyone the perils of allowing marketing decisions to take precendence over a good solid story.

Those are the highlights, I guess. I could easily take other issues, like Qui Gonn vs Old Ben or offer more specifics that support what I've said concerning the Force/Midi's, but as usual, I tend to write too much in one post. Like I mentioned before, the best and only way to do this properly is to sit down with the screenplay and do traditional coverage (notes) on it just like a studio would do in development. Obviously, because Lucas bankrolled this himself, he didn't feel the need for feedback of any kind. He evidently got the message, though, and thankfully got help with AOTC.

Tycho
01-17-2002, 01:42 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by stillakid
I like the 3,2,1 thing. Kind of a Mork baby way of going about it.

That would have lost a few more people.:rolleyes:



Hmm, I think that my general discontent harkens back to the title of this thread. After seeing TPM and from the few preliminary reports about Ep II (I don't read spoilers ever), the prequels are essentially what we'd expect to see in Expanded Universe spinoffs. There's nothing wrong with having those kinds of stories out there, but I terms of the way in which he began telling this tale of this galaxy with the OT, they don't match.

I've heard you complain about what doesn't match. I can't Wait to hear what would.

For instance, the whole lil' Fett thing. Great, mean ol' nasty bounty hunter Boba Fett has a past, a father, got his ship from someplace, but none of that has a place in the primary story about the downfall of the Republic. A filmmaker has only got 2 hours to tell the story and all this extraneous explanation stuff takes precious time away from a much bigger and better story.

I can't invoke spoilers. But MAN does Fett (Jango anyway) serve a purpose in Episode 2! Of course we can't tell you because it will Spoil your disappointment in that movie.

With regards to Han Solo, his rescue and final character transition goes way beyond establishing comraderie. It cannot be said that it is spoiler material because no spoiler confirms this, but Han Solo is a clone (in my esteemed opinion). This will be further explored in Episode 3. But just trust me. The end of Boba Fett and the final allegiance decision of Han Solo is poetically put together just like the rest of the story in light of this development being true. If you want the proof on Han's being a clone, you must delve into the "Mace's Death Thread" in the Episode THREE spoiler section - which is filled with all the spoilers you don't want to read. As to Han, again - I'm not ruining anything, it's just my speculation right now, but it was pretty well proven in light of other spoilers and an analysis of how the whole 6 episode saga fits together. It was pretty well debated amongst spoiler-knowledgeable people here, and though not concluded to be true beyond all doubt, pretty soundly reasoned to be possible. I'm sure you'll go off your rocker about that, too.



As far as the Midichlorians go, you're taking my objection out of context. I don't feel that they belong at all in the Universe because they weren't established with the initial rulebook on what the Force is and how it works. Having said that, it isn't fair to extrapolate that reasoning to suggest that other things shouldn't appear earlier (or later) because they weren't mentioned previously. If you do that, you're missing the point about the Midi's.

OK -let's talk about the Force: where was it established that you could make Dark Side Lightning before ROTJ? Could it be possible that the Light Side can use this ability - but it hasn't been shown yet? It's also possible that a fully trained Jedi can use the Force to turn himself into an orangutang at any time that it's convenient for them (literally - I mean fur and all). Little bits of things are given away in each movie. For example, why doesn't C-3PO know what planet he's on when he's been to Tatooine before. A memory wipe obviously. But when and why? It didn't happen in Episode One - so there's a reason to do something in Episode 2 or 3 with Threepio and his memory. George bets someone will spend $17.00 going to see Episodes 2 and 3 just to find out.

I would. Some types of fans would. These kind of fans want more movies -and interesting things being done in them.

I'm trying hard to condense this into a basic statement, but bear with me if it doesn't work: Midi's don't don't belong because they weren't mentioned previously. They don't belong because they weren't established at a time when they should have been established with the rest of the Force.

That's your opinion when they Should be established in the OT. You site whatever film and script writing experience you have to use to claim you know this as a fact?

Those are the highlights, I guess. I could easily take other issues, like Qui Gonn vs Old Ben or offer more specifics that support what I've said concerning the Force/Midi's, but as usual, I tend to write too much in one post.
You need to finish your arguments versus make claims that you can.
Like I mentioned before, the best and only way to do this properly is to sit down with the screenplay and do traditional coverage (notes) on it just like a studio would do in development.
I'll agree with you there - however, only scenes where the Force is discussed would it be necessary. So it's not an arduous big deal to do. Go for it if you want to. I'm game!


Obviously, because Lucas bankrolled this himself, he didn't feel the need for feedback of any kind. He evidently got the message, though, and thankfully got help with AOTC.

Glad to know you're marginally optimistic about something to do with what's new in the Star Wars universe. But who is it? Jonathon Hale? Is only working on the screenplay. That doesn't mean they change major concepts or ideas about how the whole storyline works. Hope I didn't burst your bubble, but I'll take your ticket to Episode 2 if you're selling it now.

stillakid
01-17-2002, 11:42 AM
Ok, now I'm getting it, your take on the saga as a whole and your outlook on science-fiction in general. What I saw in the OT was a well-told story about a band of heroes pitted against villians which just happened to be occurring in a science fiction genre. The basics of that story could have been applied in almost any other circumstance. That comment, in fact, was made way back when in 1977. Something about a spaghetti western and a space opera. Mentioned in Readers Digest and the novelization itself, I believe.

What you seem to be craving (and getting) is a goofy-silly-scifi-cloning-magic-crystals-Dungeons & Dragons sort of thing. If this is indeed the direction that the prequels are taking the saga (in light of the spoilers that you say will tie all of this together), then, and it hurts to say this, you can have it. That's not the kind of kind of story that my own parents (MY parents, really, that's a big deal) liked as much as I did with the OT.

If indeed Solo gets some kind of ultimate revenge against Fett due to some event in the prequels, again, great, but that seems to be EU stuff with no place in the primary story. But aside from that, turning Solo into a clone is downright silliness. Why? Nothing official. Just a general gut feeling. If I had to put money down, I'd say that the general public isn't going to go for it as much as your standard scifi enthusiast might.

Look, I'm just trying to tell you what I think and the reasons why. I've made good solid points but you've continually fallen back on the unknown, conjecture, and mysterious spoiler information that , oh my god, can't be told by penalty of death. How can I fight that? Can't. It's like talking to a religious fundamentalist. All I can do is base opinions on, yes, my own writing experience, experience reading and editing stories and scripts from others, and just plain old knowing a good story when I see one. All subjective, to a point, for sure. How can you fight that? Same answer, you can't. I look at the current state of the saga and see gnomes, clones, and crystals a brewin' and don't like it. You see the same thing and dig it. Based on the overall reaction to TPM, I'm prone to believe that more people are with me on this. Wish I had hard numbers to back it up, but alas.

No, Hale can't bring the saga back from the precipice that it's sitting on, but maybe he can keep it from falling into the abyss below.

Jedi Clint
01-17-2002, 01:18 PM
The existence of midis and the force is established in act 1. They aren't an after the fact addition.....in this unprecedented case, they are before the fact. The saga is meant to be viewed by the intended audience from 1 - 6 from 2005 to the end of time......however long that is?......hopefully a long long time.

Boba Fett's past (without going into too much detail) is indeed relevant to the plot of E2, and does not appear to draw anything from the actual expanded universe.

You're right Stillakid......spinning our wheels over differences in opinion is silliness. I haven't had much time to properly respond to anything I've read here lately, but hopefully I will be able to do so soon.

Sorry about the penalty of law no spoilers issue, but that is what comes of placing this in the (NO SPOILERS) section of SSG :).

JediTricks
01-18-2002, 02:13 AM
"The existence of midis and the force is established in act 1. They aren't an after the fact addition.....in this unprecedented case, they are before the fact."

- Uh uh, no, sorry, I can't accept this one no matter how hard McCallum & Lucas try to make us believe. ANH came first, Lucas laid down the principles of the Star Wars universe forEVER when he made that film and released it to audiences before any other Star Wars story, Episode 4 chapter title or not. This is why the Death Star prison isn't on Bespin, this is why Luke isn't a girl, this is why Obi-Wan isn't alive in ESB. Just because Lucas is doing this prequel thing doesn't mean the midis are really "before the fact" IMO. The concept is a fundamental shift in the way the Force is treated in the original 3 movies, and for me, no after-the-fact prequel movie can change that. If Lucas wanted the Force to be some pseudo-science in the SW universe, he should have shown that element to audiences in the first Star Wars film they saw.

mabudonicus
01-18-2002, 02:57 PM
Agreed Jeditricks- the Force was one of my favourite elements of the OT, especially the fact that it was so intangible yet omnipresent. Making it into little bugs or what not was the dumbest thing gl could've come up with. Even in TPM they're mismanaged. IMO it was the most ridiculous thing (in ANY of the saga so far ) to see the most powerful jedi in the universe using flashcards to confirm what they should have known from the blood sample midi count. If they are what they're alleged to be, the count alone should've been more than enough to convince the council. This just shows that it was such a dumb idea that gl didn't even get what he was doing (to the overall story) himself.

Tycho
01-18-2002, 03:33 PM
I had to laugh at what Mabudon said about the "flash cards." It was humorous the way he put it. However, to be objective, they need to test a Jedi constantly. That's what all the trials are about. Different Jedi excel at different abilities. Anakin can read minds, or images others are seeing or projecting to him telepathically. Well we knew that: "So, you have a twin sister? Your feelings have now betrayed her too."

Meanwhile, I disagree with Jedi Tricks - or agree with him depending upon how you look at things. Tricks says George established what the Force was supposed to be in the first trilogy - in Trick's own words "IMO (in my opinion)." I can't dispute that.

We obvioulsy have 2hrs and 16 minutes of proof that this was not Lucas' opinion.

But since it is a PREQUEL, Lucas has every right to add facts to the Force, or anything else. You have every right to say it's not to your taste, but not to dispute that it doesn't fit in factually.

Remember - Padme had twin GIRLS! Yes, Leia and Lana Skywalker. To hide them from their father, Lana had a SEX CHANGE OPERATION and was made a boy they named Luke.

I really hope this is not the case, but it could be. You can't take any facts for granted when you don't know the background on them. Maybe she had too boys, Luke and Lance - this would make Princess Leia's 1995 action figure highly authentic and accurate if nothing else...yes - that's more believable. Isn't it?

stillakid
01-19-2002, 01:49 AM
First off, I'd like to say "whew," thanks for the backup finally. I was fighting off attacks from all sides by myself for awhile. It takes a lot out of a guy.:dead:

I think that there is a fundamental difference in opinion about how the series of 6 films should be perceived regarding A) the information that is given vs. B) the order in which they eventually are intended to be seen.

I have to believe that Lucas has always intended the series to be seen from Episode I through Episode VI, after all is said and done. From the notes I've seen scattered throughout various other posts, I gather that just about everyone here concurs. The disaster occurs because he didn't start making these at number 1.

Now, there seems to be a faction of people here who believe that since Lucas already gave us certain information in actual time (In the 1970's and '80's) that it should just be assumed that that information is going to be pre-known by everyone who sits down to watch the prequels. Therefore, said faction, believes that including any information in the prequels that would essentially give away mysteries or secrets from the OT is okay to do. Reason being: "well, we already know it, so give us the cool scenes we want to see in the prequels. Doing so wouldn't ruin any drama in the OT because we know it already." In this particular case, I'm speaking specifically about the rumor of giving away Vader's identity in the prequels, which would nullify any drama of Vader's revelation in the ESB and Yoda's admission in ROTJ and Spirit of Obi Wan's confession shortly thereafter (I know that there are people here that don't want to believe that, but if you can't see it, then you clearly don't want to).

What's this got to do with other issues, like Midichlorians and Qui Gonn Jinn? Plenty. Said faction wants it's cake and wants to eat it too. What that means is that they want to say that the 6 films should be viewed in chapter order, but they want to use the order in which the films are being made in defense of their views on when information is "invented" and "given" to the audience. In this view, the prequels, because they are first in movie time, are fertile ground for planting all kinds of new rules and ideas about the saga.

This other faction, (the one with me in it) says that the rules were established in the OT, which in real time was first. To us, that's what matters. When the rules were established in real time takes priority. What that means is that even though the prequels take place before the OT in movie time, they shouldn't be allowed to amend or alter that basic plot foundation that was set up in real time.

The faction wants the exact opposite. They seem to be willing to sacrifice the integrity of the movies that the world grew to love in order to defend George Lucas's poor writing and execution of Episode I. A sort of Star Wars tunnel vision is taking place, where any kind of rationalization is fair game just so long as it appears that the Star Wars saga is still as good as ever.

And recent defense mechanisms have used statements like "just wait until you see what's coming, then it will all make sense." That line of reasoning is essentially flawed because it uses TPM as a base to build from. If your base is flawed, then all that follows is tainted. Seeing something, like lil' Han having a playground skirmish with lil' Fett, then using the (accidental, mind you) revenge that Solo finally gets in ROTJ as an excuse for seeing the lil' guys in the prequels is the epitamy of ridiculous reasoning. Just because it might have happened doesn't mean that it did, or should have, or should be seen in the prequels. Han Solo was a character, who entered the story when he was needed and fulfilled a purpose. Fett was a B character who entered the story when he was needed and exited when his purpose was complete. Just because they both obviously have a past, is this a logical excuse to put them into the prequels? If that's the reasoning, then why don't we just turn this into a 10 hour film and watch everybody's childhood from Ackbar to Zuckuss. See how silly this all gets?

JediTricks
01-19-2002, 02:41 AM
Lucas started with the ANH story when he had the whole saga ready to go for a reason, he thought it was the best stand-alone story and the most solid place to start. While he may have changed his mind about certain things (such as Greedo firing first), it doesn't mean he can go back years later after it's been embedded in the audience's mind and make a fundamental change and expect it to jive. If Lucas wanted the Force to be magical talking micro-cellular lifeforms, he should have told the audience that when he laid down the REAL foundation for the saga, not some pretend foundation he had a change of heart about 20 years after the first film. The idea that this prequel is first is something of a lie, it is really a sequel, it's just that the new film's story takes place before the old one. Imagine if Tolkien had written The Hobbit with Bilbo being 7 feet tall or the ring needing activation from a magic solvent (and this solvent is what caused Gollum to become the freak that he is). The latter is what midichlorians are.

Tycho
01-19-2002, 03:00 AM
If Han is a Clone warrior (not from the same progenator as certain other very specific clones) then this is very important and showing Han Solo and Boba Fett's past is highly relevant. (Mind you Han is not in Episode 2 to my knowledge -this is an E3 spoiler speculation) But if the said case proves to be true, it will be much more relevant than Baby Ackbar, or Wuher's childhood.

I wonder if it is possible for you to acknowledge that without spoilers, you are basing your judgement of the whole prequel saga (which is more than E1 standing alone by itself), on information you glean from Ep. 1 alone). There might be more (hint-hint) and I find it hard to believe that on top of everything going around the web, you could have possibly avoided the specific spoilers regarding the Fetts that tie in to some of what you are complaining about.

Meanwhile, you (Stillakid) and I agree that though the secret of Vader's identity will be known by virtually the entire viewing audience of Episode THREE, that the revelation should be preserved as an Empire Strikes Back surpise. But you say I want that "rule" established by the Classic Trilogy preserved, while I make allowances for midichlorians and Qui-Gon, which "break the classic rules." ('You want to have your cake and eat it to -was directed towards me, I took it.')

It's not the same thing because while midichlorians adds new information about the Force, and Qui-Gon about the past, not showing Anakin build / don the Vader costume does not add or change the past, the rules, or anything else. The midichlorians on the other hand don't change the rules either, they just add new information about the Force, as does Qui-Gon. They don't change ANH, ESB, or ROTJ. Neither would showing Anakin build the Vader suit, true. However, it would spoil the moment of the dark revelation scene.

Let's try this from your point of view, but in reverse: How could midichlorians and Qui-Gon be written into the Classic Trilogy? What scenes would you change? [I am assuming Qui-Gon died at Darth Maul's hands just like we were shown, but this knowledge is known while the stories for ANH, ESB, and ROTJ are being constructed]. I think it would read pretty much the way Chuxter wrote that dialog before.

You try and see if it fits anywhere in the classic trilogy - under the assumption it was always intended. I doubt there is a place in Luke's story where it is necessary to reveal this information.

Tycho
01-19-2002, 03:23 AM
One more thing: I think people are taking Qui-Gon's speech and the information vacuum on midichlorians a little too seriously without further knowledge.

"Master Qui-Gon, Sir? I've heard Master Yoda and the others talking about midichlorians. What are midichlorians?"

Midichlorians are microscopic lifeforms living inside of you.

[They are the living cells or cell variations that are naturally occuring - such as mitochondria - or perhaps more specialized like white blood cells. However, this is being explained in a hurry to a 9 year old. Santa Claus is also explained often in a hurry to a 9 year old.]

"They live inside me?"

Yes. Inside your cells. They are symbiotic organisms - lifeforms living with other lifeforms for mutual benefit.

[white blood cells are symbiotic organisms in our bodies right now. They could even survive without us in nutrient rich blood plasma that's constantly renewed. Think about when you donate blood - we know the red blood cells survive. They are other lifeforms that compose US. When they are infused into another person who needs blood, they are living on without us in a symiotic relationship with the recipient of the blood donation.]


Without midichlorians, a Jedi would have no knowledge of the Force.

[They are specialized cells that fall into the same wave-length or frequency that the Force fills in the space-time continuum - and those individuals with a high count can sense the future and appear to have fast reflexes, skip moments in time - a feat responsible for telekenisis. You go to use the lightsaber and you "know" that you will hold it in your hand and weild it a certain way to accomplish a certain task. Instead the saber leaps to your hand because you are on the same pulse with the future, confident you will see the expected outcome you desired. If you are on such an intimate basis with the Force, telekenisis comes relatively simply, and size matters not.]

They are constantly speaking to us. When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to you.

[If you feel and don't question everything that your own body is telling you, trust in yourself and your natural abilities, the future you call upon will answer you back. It's how we use intuition - though you use your natural abilities to "feel out or envision the future" and you listen to the voice inside of you. It's your voice of calm, contentment, resolve, and confidence. These aspects of your conscience are easily interrupted by your fear, or any other strong emotion, hence why the Dark Side can come quickly or uses powers granted by knowledge of the Force differently. But that is another discussion. In the meantime, I hope no one is taking "talking cellular blood organelles" still seriously, like they are some kind of back-seat-driver that's constantly with a Jedi the way voices are in the head of a schizophrenic. But it is not too different, though in the mind of the disturbed, self-doubt is the strongest voice and the cause for the second personality. The Force and its relationship to psychology is interesting to explore.]

mabudonicus
01-19-2002, 05:27 PM
I remember qui gon calling them symbiants and symbions a couple times too.

Wooooof
01-19-2002, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Imagine if Tolkien had written The Hobbit with Bilbo being 7 feet tall or the ring needing activation from a magic solvent (and this solvent is what caused Gollum to become the freak that he is).

Actually Tolkien did rewrite a significant part of the 5th chapter to the Hobbit 17 years after it's initial publishing to mesh better with the LOTR book he was writing at the time. In the original version Gollum offers the Ring as a prize in the riddle game, thus when Bilbo takes it the reader wouldn't consider him a thief. In the rewrite things become much more sinister as Gollum simply offers Bilbo a chance to not be eaten and shown the way out. Bilbo takes the Ring; but his thievery is justified since Gollum planned to welch on his part of the deal and murder him anyway.

Jedi Clint
01-19-2002, 07:09 PM
What "faction" am I in? I don't think it is ok to confirm that Vader is Anakin in E3. I do not see any problems with either Qui Gon, or the midis from TPM. In fact, I don't know of anyone posting in this topic or any of the prequels forums that fits into that "faction"!

I doubt we will see anything about Han Solo in E3......I could be wrong. So why complain about his addition to the PT until we know for sure that it is going to happen?

The saga is intended to be viewed from episode 1 to episode 6. The events of TPM take place (in SW time) before the events of AOTC, E3, ANH, ESB, and ROTJ. Is there anything inaccurate about either of those statements?

stillakid
01-20-2002, 11:12 AM
JT hits the nail on the head when he says that although EP 1-3 are set before the events in 4-6, they are really sequels which binds Lucas to maintaining the continuity of the originals and hopefully not destroying the drama that he built so well.

I need some more time to answer some of your specifics (football today!) but I'll get to it. :)

JediTricks
01-20-2002, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by Wooooof


Actually Tolkien did rewrite a significant part of the 5th chapter to the Hobbit 17 years after it's initial publishing to mesh better with the LOTR book he was writing at the time. In the original version Gollum offers the Ring as a prize in the riddle game, thus when Bilbo takes it the reader wouldn't consider him a thief. In the rewrite things become much more sinister as Gollum simply offers Bilbo a chance to not be eaten and shown the way out. Bilbo takes the Ring; but his thievery is justified since Gollum planned to welch on his part of the deal and murder him anyway. I didn'a know that Woof, I'm not really a Ring-fan, but you make an interesting point, Tolkien went back to make his prequel fit better with his original trilogy - seemingly the polar opposite of Lucas' prequels. In fact, from reading the above, it seems like "Greedo fired first" in reverse.

stillakid
01-21-2002, 01:23 AM
Okay, so first off, my Steelers won, so yeah! :)

Next. Let's see. Where to begin. Okay, how 'bout this:

I wonder if it is possible for you to acknowledge that without spoilers, you are basing your judgement of the whole prequel saga (which is more than E1 standing alone by itself), on information you glean from Ep. 1 alone). There might be more (hint-hint) and I find it hard to believe that on top of everything going around the web, you could have possibly avoided the specific spoilers regarding the Fetts that tie in to some of what you are complaining about.

Actually, I don't see spoilers at all, except for what might be mentioned here. Two reasons I suppose. One is that I like to be surprised by every movie I go to, so the less I know beforehand, the better. Second, I don't trust any pre-information from anybody unless it comes from the source. I only started getting hopped up about the Jango/Slave I business after I saw the toy revealed by Hasbro. Aside from just knowing that they're in the movie, I haven't got a clue what roles they play. I just got the new Insider in the mail and haven't opened it up yet.

Which leads back into what I've been saying all along about your defense strategy. You're basing all of your arguments about the validity of Midichlorians, Qui Gonn, and the Fetts, etc. on events that either occured in Episode I or will reportedly occur in Episodes II and III. Because I believe Episode I to be inherently flawed, in order to convince me that Lucas is on the right track, you're going to have to start backing up your defense with "proof" from the Original Trilogy films, which I view to be solid in structure and the source of the "rules" that were established. Otherwise, we're truly spinning our wheels trying to convince one another of truths based on different opinions of what this reality is based on.

It's not the same thing because while midichlorians adds new information about the Force, and Qui-Gon about the past, not showing Anakin build / don the Vader costume does not add or change the past, the rules, or anything else.

True, showing Anakin going into the mask does not change anything about the Original Trilogy or it's plot. What it does ruin is the drama that Lucas built so well. The cliffhanger ending in ESB would essentially be destroyed. Instead of wondering, "Is Vader telling the truth?" a new audience member would be reduced to simply watching Luke's eventual acceptance unfold onscreen. Terribly unexciting that way.

The midichlorians on the other hand don't change the rules either, they just add new information about the Force, as does Qui-Gon. They don't change ANH, ESB, or ROTJ.

False. They DO change the established rules and plot points in ANH, ESB, and ROTJ. It's not just an addition of information. The Force was set up and understood to be a mystical energy field created by all living things, etc. Yes, I understand that the Midichlorians are not the Force, they simply help the user get in touch with it. The problem is that Yoda never mentioned it in ESB. Many of the arguments that you and others have had with me have been specifically about the idea that there is no reason for anyone to have mentioned Midichlorians to Luke. I've seen a variety of reasons for this, but not one has been plausible.

The fact of the matter is that any Jedi in training, and most likely, the last and final hope Jedi in training would be told the entire story. The whole truth about what makes it all work. What value is it for Luke to NOT know the best and most direct way to essentially "channel" the Force. When Obi Wan says to Luke, "Stretch out with your feelings," it doesn't make sense that he would say something so vague especially at that time. In light of current events, it would be in Obi Wan's best interest to put Luke on the fast track to Force control, so clueing him into the Midichlorians and how to "listen" to them would be to everyone's advantage. Pick out any point in ANH or ESB when Obi Wan or Yoda are teaching Luke about the Force and come up with an airtight explanation about why they wouldn't bother to tell him about Midis and maybe I'll buy it. Even in Jedi, when Obi Wan sits down to confess, at the very least, we should have been told about Midi's then, but no.

Neither would showing Anakin build the Vader suit, true. However, it would spoil the moment of the dark revelation scene.

True, covered above.

Let's try this from your point of view, but in reverse: How could midichlorians and Qui-Gon be written into the Classic Trilogy? What scenes would you change? [I am assuming Qui-Gon died at Darth Maul's hands just like we were shown, but this knowledge is known while the stories for ANH, ESB, and ROTJ are being constructed]. I think it would read pretty much the way Chuxter wrote that dialog before.

Like I said before, Midi's could and should have gone practically anywhere Luke was being trained as a Jedi. First opportunity was on the Falcon, when he was being hit by the remote. Next best opportunity was on Dagobah. Pick any one of a number of scenes where Yoda was telling him everything else about the Force. Third missed opportunity was again on Dagobah in ROTJ when Obi Wan spills the rest of the beans, though by that time, the audience would have been asking "what the fu**?" the way they are now with TPM.

I've said this over and over to no avail, but Qui Gon would have been mentioned by Obi Wan in ROTJ on Dagobah. Everything that he says either is direct or implies that he was the one who discovered Anakin, he was the one who realized his potential, and he was the one who decided to train the boy. We are also led to believe that Obi Wan was directly trained by Yoda. If the case was different, as TPM paints the picture, there is no excuse in the world for Obi Wan to not say the words "Qui Gonn Jinn" somewhere in that explanation.

I do remember a post a little ways back defending the Qui Gonn omission by saying that while Obi Wan was lying to Luke about everything else in ANH, he just continued by not telling him the entire truth about what exactly happened so long ago. I don't buy that either. Maybe it's semantics, but I don't look at what Obi Wan did as lying to Luke in ANH. He was condensing the events of what happened to his father in such a way that wouldn't be such an awful emotional blow to a naive boy. Old Ben knew that Luke would find out one day, but he also knew that Luke wasn't ready for that truth at that moment. He even takes a moment before saying the words, "a young Jedi, named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, helped the Emperor hunt down and kill the Jedi. He betrayed and murdered your father." That's not a lie and just like he winds up explaining in ROTJ, it's a version of the truth based on your point of view. The personality of Anakin was destroyed by a new evil one that even took another name. You see, the whole way through the OT, Obi Wan believes til the end that the Anakin personality is dead. "He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil." It is Luke, the son, who is the lone believer that his father is still alive inside that dark soul somewhere, and it is due to his inner strength and fortitude that he manages to destroy the evil and save his father's soul. Farcical microscopic bugs had nothing to do with it. To suggest such a thing cheapens the emotional arc that Luke went through from being a naive farm boy with fantastic dreams to becoming the savior of the galaxy, and more importantly, the savior of his father from descending into Hell.

Anyway, if we had to rewrite the OT (when in fact, Lucas has to now), we'd have to insert a Qui Gonn introduction into Obi Wan's confession in ROTJ on Dagobah. References to Midi's would have to be inserted in ANH on the Falcon during Luke's training scene, in ESB while Yoda is teaching Luke, and maybe sometime during ROTJ also on Dagobah when Luke speaks to Spirit of Obi Wan. Without those references at those points, the two trilogies won't be consistent.

If Han is a Clone warrior (not from the same progenator as certain other very specific clones) then this is very important and showing Han Solo and Boba Fett's past is highly relevant. (Mind you Han is not in Episode 2 to my knowledge -this is an E3 spoiler speculation) But if the said case proves to be true, it will be much more relevant than Baby Ackbar, or Wuher's childhood.

Again, you're basing importance, relevance, and validity of inclusion of a plot element on itself. Like defining a word with itself. If Lucas creates a back story that pits the two guys against each other, then of course it's "relevant" down the road. My bigger objection with this new plot development is that by turning such a beloved character, like Solo, into a clone, it cheapens the overall story be turning it into a geeky sci-fi thing. Instead of being about plausible, real, people, Star Wars is becoming a nerds paradise of sci-fi convention. What's next? Shrinking? Transport beams? Replicators? I don't think anyone really knew back in the Eighties what the "clone wars" were going to be about. There was speculation that the name implied "two" wars and of course a war involving cloned beings of some kind. But I think that there is a huge difference between having huge masses of cloned beings serving as an invasion force and cloning a popular character.

Holy smokes! I've gone on too long. I've tried to be thorough with my rebuttal, so that's my excuse this time. Anyone still awake? :D

stillakid
01-21-2002, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
What "faction" am I in? I don't think it is ok to confirm that Vader is Anakin in E3. I do not see any problems with either Qui Gon, or the midis from TPM. In fact, I don't know of anyone posting in this topic or any of the prequels forums that fits into that "faction"!

I doubt we will see anything about Han Solo in E3......I could be wrong. So why complain about his addition to the PT until we know for sure that it is going to happen?

The saga is intended to be viewed from episode 1 to episode 6. The events of TPM take place (in SW time) before the events of AOTC, E3, ANH, ESB, and ROTJ. Is there anything inaccurate about either of those statements?

Sorry, JC. It's difficult in a venue like this to avoid mass generalizations so it's inevitable that somebody will be unfairly be caught up in the dragnet. To this point, I've been trying to use economy and answer all the objections at once. I'll try to be more careful.

The Solo/Ep 3 thing: this is why I don't pay attention to "spoilers" or even look for them. This one was thrust upon me and it is as valid to me as any other spoiler. If I mention a spoiler issue in an argument, it is usually meant to be a hypothetical example to a much bigger issue.

Yes, I hope that Lucas intends the saga to be viewed from 1-6, but he has a responsiblity to follow the rules he established in 4-6. In my long-winded post above, there are more specifics concerning why I don't believe he is following his own rules. If he continues down this path of inconsistency, he has no choice but to reedit the OT to conform all the episodes.

bigbarada
01-21-2002, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Okay, so first off, my Steelers won, so yeah! :)



They did? Cool! Maybe I should tune in the TV once in a while, I didn't even know they were playing. Some fan I am.:rolleyes:

If Anakin disappears in the lava pit (assuming George sticks to his original idea) and is pulled out by Palpatine, then Anakin disappears and this Darth Vader guy suddenly shows up. The audience will figure it out pretty easily.

I think the audience will be led to believe that Anakin is dead by the end of Ep3. Watching the saga from 1-6, it's the only way to preserve the surprise of Vader's identity, IMO.

But wait, when Kenobi says that Vader "betrayed and murdered" Luke's father; everyone will know he's lying. It'll give the whole game away. Man, what a conundrum! How can Lucas preserve the surprise without shoving everything offscreen for Ep3?

Tycho
01-21-2002, 05:20 AM
It will have to be time for a short reply only at this moment.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by stillakid


The fact of the matter is that any Jedi in training, and most likely, the last and final hope Jedi in training would be told the entire story. The whole truth about what makes it all work. What value is it for Luke to NOT know the best and most direct way to essentially "channel" the Force. When Obi Wan says to Luke, "Stretch out with your feelings," it doesn't make sense that he would say something so vague especially at that time. In light of current events, it would be in Obi Wan's best interest to put Luke on the fast track to Force control, so clueing him into the Midichlorians and how to "listen" to them would be to everyone's advantage. Pick out any point in ANH or ESB when Obi Wan or Yoda are teaching Luke about the Force and come up with an airtight explanation about why they wouldn't bother to tell him about Midis and maybe I'll buy it. Even in Jedi, when Obi Wan sits down to confess, at the very least, we should have been told about Midi's then, but no.

I think the biology lesson would have been a distraction. Remember, Anakin wasn't going to be let in on the midichlorian info either. But he asked. And Qui-Gon wasn't training him, nor distracting him during the time of other crucial training or dark revelations that might have preoccupied him (and appropriately so). Instead, Anakin had time to absorb the knowledge and wasn't supposed to be doing anything else at that moment.

There isn't proof that there wasn't a reason to tell Luke in the OT, and there can be speculation that he was told, just off-screen. Instead, in reality, we know George hadn't invented midichlorians, or the term for them then, and it would have been distracting from the story as it was unneeded information.

Finally, the are not "little bugs" they are cells as simple as blood cells. That's all they are.


it cheapens the overall story be turning it into a geeky sci-fi thing. Instead of being about plausible, real, people, Star Wars is becoming a nerds paradise of sci-fi convention.

Who are you to decide what is "geeky." Why is one kind of guy who collects a bunch of action figures and seeks out a website to talk about them any less of a geek than the next person here? Why are any of us geeks? What do you know about anyone else here anyway?

If intelligent things like cloning issues and ramifications, or Shakesperean 'poetic coincidences' like Han turning out to be an escaped Clone are put into the trilogy to make it play to a balance, similar to an opera or a symphony, that changes everything about Star Wars for you? Does it? To you it's just a spiritual story, or one about an adventure and a coming of age and a family in crisis? Before it was (to you) about a galaxy wide civil war, or preferences, strengths and weaknesses between a Republic and an autocratic government. Well, perhaps it is all these things? There is nothing to dislike about any of these things in story telling in my opinion. But Star Wars takes place in outer-space and amongst aliens and different worlds, etc. These are sci-fi staples, though Star Wars is more science-fantasy.

I don't want to argue semantics, but I think anything to do with space or technologies we don't already have today, gets labled into the science fiction category. It's true that Star Wars is an old fable about good versus evil and you could even write the basic outline of the story into a father-son modern football coaching drama - as I'm sure that would appeal to you. But where I get confused is that by you labeling these notions of deeper thought being put into Star Wars as 'geeky,' you seem to be suggesting that ideas suggesting we admire (or aspire) to do things with technologies we still only dream of discovering today, is something derogatory - worthwhile to only 'geeks' who are less valueable (to society?) or to Star Wars fandom at the bare minimum.

Everything should be to your tastes I suppose? (I know you'll deny that - but you come off sounding like you meant that). But I suppose it wouldn't surprise you that I don't watch professional sports and couldn't tell you who's in the playoffs (other than I heard the Packers were). That is stereotypical of a geek, right? Though I don't care if I can prove it to you, I played baseball from my tee-ball days through my varsity year in highschool, and continued to stay active in social leagues in college. I've trained in martial arts for 5 years, and I do amateur free-style jet skiing events amongst other things. I don't live with my parents but rather support myself, and I'm not a virgin either. I do follow politics with a passion, and now work in the field of public manangement as well as do campaign consulting. There are bigger prizes to win than the Suerbowl. So I care about what I am doing in my life, and fantasize (about Star Wars and other sci-fi) concerning things I cannot do in real life. While I enjoy a game from time to time (football or baseball), I don't really care about what anyone else is doing, I care about what I'm doing. So I don't have time to be a fan boy - especially the kind that is no professional athlete but sits and stares at it, then criticizes others who would sit and stare at intelligent entertainment that makes you think about things from ethical issues in technology, to the composition of drama and a 6-epic story set-up.

It shows a limited capacity to appreciate new things and a strong prejudice to label stuff in your convenient categories, as well as makes your case for saying how Star Wars should be - according to you.

You sound like this guy Frank that I know - exactly the same type of mentality and attitude...I wouldn't be surprised.

stillakid
01-21-2002, 11:05 AM
But wait, when Kenobi says that Vader "betrayed and murdered" Luke's father; everyone will know he's lying. It'll give the whole game away. Man, what a conundrum! How can Lucas preserve the surprise without shoving everything offscreen for Ep3?

BB, you're right. I'm remiss that that didn't occur to me. Hmm. There is no way out of this without blowing the surprise. Damn. Maybe he shouldn't have done these at all.........Well, maybe the only true answer is to truely consider these as sequels (despite the Episode numbering and the timeline) and intend on watching them 4-6 then 1-3. Oh well.:rolleyes: Life moves on. In my special world ;) that's how I'll treat the films. You all do what you want.:D

Wow, Tycho, I hit a sensitive nerve there. Yikes. What can I say? My opinion, of course, but I see a general attitude in society that looks at, Star Trek fans, for instance, and sees, well, geeky people. Don't blame me. I'm not a die-hard fan of the show or anything but I'll watch it now and again. At the same time, I saw the world embrace the Star Wars saga. Both are science-fiction, true, but I've tried to figure out what the difference might be. I could be wrong, but after comparing them both, Trek comes off as a little colder, a little more technically-minded. But that's the nature of what that show is about. Exploration, discovery, pushing the limits of society and technology. Star Wars, on the other hand, tapped into the romantic emotional side of humanity. Yes it uses advanced technology, but only as a tool to tell a different story of love, betrayal, etc. With Lucas now trying to explain everything and where everybody came from, he's edging closer to that other kind of sci fi that relies much more on exposition to help an audience understand where all this stuff originated.

I have a great appreciation to discover the world and listen to new ideas. It's hardly limited at all. It would be one thing if I hadn't put any thought into this at all then just posted slams here because it all just "didn't seem right" to me. But I have put (too much :rolleyes: ) thought into all of this, so I think that you've unjustly qualified me for the unimaginative camp. It's unfortunate that others paint people like me as close-minded when in fact the opposite it true. I've just already gone through the evaluation process and arrived at the other side with my mind made up. :)

When you say this, for instance:
I think the biology lesson would have been a distraction. Remember, Anakin wasn't going to be let in on the midichlorian info either. But he asked. And Qui-Gon wasn't training him, nor distracting him during the time of other crucial training or dark revelations that might have preoccupied him (and appropriately so). Instead, Anakin had time to absorb the knowledge and wasn't supposed to be doing anything else at that moment.

I've said time and time again, that a filmmaker isn't just giving information to characters onscreen when they ask for it. A good writer knows what information to give and when to give it to the audience. He's not writing for the characters. They're just imaginary things. The people that matter are in the theater and at home. So it isn't about distracting Anakin or Luke or informing them either. It's about setting the stage for a major plot element and all the parameters that go along with it for the audience. My suggestions for when this Midi information should have been given is just an attempt to make the idea mesh with the OT, but as you continually point out, the idea does come off as a distraction and only further supports the idea that Midi's are a silly addition anyway. There is indeed no really good way to slide them into the OT, but if they need to be there, there are some perfect places for it to happen. But in my close-minded :rolleyes: world, they should just be removed all-together.

And, no, sorry to disappoint, but I'm not Frank. I know a couple of Franks! Eat franks and beans sometimes, but that's about it.

(everybody take a deep breath....ah....calm.....calm....):)

mabudonicus
01-21-2002, 12:38 PM
One question- when's the pay per view gonna be? This forum seems a lot hotter than the last time I was here. I gotta agree, solo as a clone is a pretty silly idea, and I don't think stillakid was trying to put down anyone with his/her? comments. What it really comes down to is the fact that a lot of fans really thought that TPM had some horrible ideas in it, and for those of us that had troubles with it(me included),well, we're worried . That's all. I saw ANH in it's first run, I remember the way ESB made me feel the first time I watched it, I remember being kinda disappointed by ROTJ(ewoks and the Ultimate coincidence business) and I was totally baffled(I could even say hurt to some extent) by TPM. I tried to rationalize that it would grow on me, or that time had jaded me such that I couldn't get into it the way I could when I was young, but as time passed, I realized that it was just a bad film with poor flow and wooden characters. I think people who feel the same way are sad to see the OT strip mined and renovated, and are just worried that the events in the sequels (might as well drop THAT charade here and now) will eventually reduce the OT( with all of the revisions which will no doubt, as pointed out, be crucial in making the OT work again) to the status of an old rusty weathervane on top of a pile of crap. I LOVED the OT, and it's sad to see a loved one go.
Sorry for that, I just wanted to point out that this isn't a personal thing(or it shouldn't be), a lot of what has been said in this thread is motivated by grief.

bigbarada
01-21-2002, 04:28 PM
I've come to the conclusion that many of these issues will never be solved until Eps 1-3 and the final revisions of the OT are on DVD. (Not saying I like the idea of even more changes to the OT, but we're basically powerless to stop it.) Only by watching the final editions of Ep 1-6 in order will we be able to guess exactly what George was trying to accomplish with his prequels (aside from :greedy: ). I just hope the final product will be something we can all live with.

Jedi Clint
01-21-2002, 07:55 PM
Don't sweat it Stillakid. I do think it helps if you address each argument and person directly though.

If Ben didn't tell the truth, then he lied. He uses the "point of view" defense when he explains things, but it appears to me that Luke is not impressed. Lie:"....He betrayed and murdered your father." Ben's lie doesn't spoil the suprise in ESB. He does drop the audience a big hint though: ".....Darth Vader, a pupil of mine before he turned to evil." Ben may take on other Padawans after Anakin and he split paths. I don't know for sure, but I am guessing they give Anakin his Knighthood at the close of AOTC which gives Ben ample time to train other Padawans. The Jedi may need to accelerate the process of becoming a Knight in the face of a galactic scale war. I realize that I am basing this on conjecture regarding the coming films, but doing so is no less relevant to the discussion than passing judgement on the prequels before you have seen all three. If Ben is responsible for what happens to Anakin (lava and all), then the lie appears to be an effort to avoid divulging the following: Your father and I fought, and I knocked him into a big fiery pool. By telling him that, he risked losing Luke's admiration and trust. That was not something he could afford to do at the time. Point is, 50 years from now when an individual is watching ANH (after watching 1 -3), and Ben tells his fib, their initial response could be "Hmmm Vader was one of Obi Wan's pupils as well?" Or "Is Vader really Anakin?". I am not saying that the quick-witted will not be able to see through the line of crap Ben feeds Luke, only that the average person still won't know for sure. People left the theater after ESB wondering if Vader was telling the truth about being Luke's father. Yoda confirms it in ROTJ, "Your father he is."

We don't see all of the interaction between either elder Jedi and Luke during their time together. Yoda may have mentioned the midis to Luke.....just not on screen. The audience has already been introduced to them in TPM. How is that not plausible? First the technical aspect of the force is presented to the audience, then later the spiritual/practical aspect is emphasized. God knows people don't have to know exactly how the sealed combustion engine operates to be a good driver.



I've said this over and over to no avail, but Qui Gon would have been mentioned by Obi Wan in ROTJ on Dagobah. Everything that he says either is direct or implies that he was the one who discovered Anakin, he was the one who realized his potential, and he was the one who decided to train the boy. We are also led to believe that Obi Wan was directly trained by Yoda. If the case was different, as TPM paints the picture, there is no excuse in the world for Obi Wan to not say the words "Qui Gonn Jinn" somewhere in that explanation.

That is your opinion. In my opinion, it would work better if he mentioned Qui Gon but it doesn't not work.

I will go so far as to say that IMO the PT probably won't blend seemlessly the OT, but it will have a decent degree of continuity.

Here's to the spinning of wheels....:)

stillakid
01-22-2002, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
If Ben is responsible for what happens to Anakin (lava and all), then the lie appears to be an effort to avoid divulging the following: Your father and I fought, and I knocked him into a big fiery pool. By telling him that, he risked losing Luke's admiration and trust. That was not something he could afford to do at the time.

For what it's worth, I'm with some of what you mentioned. Like BB said above, just the words, "Vader betrayed and murdered your father" in ANH preclude nearly any chance of preserving the surprise. I've been running the possibilities through my head and haven't come up with any great ways in which to hide Obi Wan's involvement in Anakin's near fatal battle injuries in Episode III. In order for Old Ben's statement to work at all in ANH, we'd have to see some kind of Vader character running around slaughtering Jedi in the prequels. But since we have the (dis?)advantage of foresight, we know that Vader and Anakin are one individual body and can't be seen separately. So going into Ep IV with the knowledge of what really happens, if you watch 1-3 first, we see Old Ben in a whole new light...and not a particularly attractive one...and in my humble opinion, not the one that Lucas originally intended. I still don't see what he said as a nefarious lie, just a way to gloss over the truth to, as you said, get Luke in a position of trust. It's not an evil or selfish thing that he did at that point, but it was completely necessary because of Luke's youth and immaturity. But ultimately, because of the surprise issue, I'm not sure that these will ever be able to be viewed in Episode order by future generations of fans. Oh well.

The other issue that you bring up:
We don't see all of the interaction between either elder Jedi and Luke during their time together. Yoda may have mentioned the midis to Luke.....just not on screen. The audience has already been introduced to them in TPM. How is that not plausible? First the technical aspect of the force is presented to the audience, then later the spiritual/practical aspect is emphasized. God knows people don't have to know exactly how the sealed combustion engine operates to be a good driver.

I'll fall back to what I mentioned a couple short posts ago. Maybe what you're saying could have happened, but that's crappy writing on Lucas's part if it is so. Forget what I've said about the audience needing to know for a second, but if Midi's are so crucial, and are in fact the key, to communicating with the Force, then there is absolutely positively 100% no reason at all why Old Ben or Yoda wouldn't have mentioned them to Luke onscreen for story purposes. It would be inexcusable for a Jedi Master to omit such an important step for a pupil to "get in touch" with the Force. I just don't see it happening, unless Yoda is a much worse teacher than we are led to believe. Who knows, maybe he was a remedial student. Why make it difficult for Luke? Why just tell him vague stuff like "Stretch out with your feelings" and "You must feel the Force flowing through you" when saying "Listen to the Midichlorians inside you. Quiet your mind and they'll help you" would make it all happen so much faster? Yeah, it's not as romantic and becomes a biology lesson in a hurry, just like you said. Which gets back to my position that they just don't belong there in the first place. If they exist, there is no excuse for them not being mentioned in the OT. If they don't, as the teaching sequences in the OT imply, then TPM is flawed.


Another thought occurred to me earlier today regarding something Tycho brought up in the following post:

I think the biology lesson would have been a distraction. Remember, Anakin wasn't going to be let in on the midichlorian info either. But he asked.

The key to that statement was "But he asked." The problem is that your basing the proof of that statement on something a character in the story did. Look at it this way: an actual human called Anakin Skywalker didn't walk into Lucas's upstairs office at the Ranch and ask what Midichlorian's are. Lucas made the choice to have one of his characters ask the question. He also made the choice to NOT have Luke ask a similar question or have Yoda bring it up at all. My point is that just because a character in a story brings up an issue, that doesn't mean that the issue is valid. It's the writer who makes the choice to present it to the audience or not. Lucas chose to NOT tell the audience about Midi's or Qui Gonn in the 1970's and '80's, rather he chose to bring it up this century instead, well after the facts that hehad already established himself. Anakin had nothing to do with it.

Oh, and one last thing:

I don't think stillakid was trying to put down anyone with his/her? comments.

His. :p

stillakid
01-22-2002, 01:25 AM
Okay, I'll amend something that I just said: I just thought of a way to make the whole surprise thing work regarding Anakin/Vader, but it is so frickin' hokey that I wouldn't dare put it out there for fear that it would get back to the Ranch.:rolleyes: It kind of resembles something from an episode of Three's Company.