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View Full Version : Tolkien's Epic casts its shadow?



JonoFett
01-06-2002, 02:00 PM
The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers is the most anticipated film of 2002, according to numerous polls.

What will have more appeal at the flicks this year for you, Jedi & Clones vs. droids and beasts (aka Lucas' version of Gladiator) or a colossal bloody ground battle between Elves and the Uruk-hai and the the continuation of this dark genre in the LOTR?

My vote goes to Jackson, I'm afraid. I have been a Star Wars fan ever since seeing ESB when I was 6, but the prequels, I fear, may not have the edge over the likes of LOTR.

What are your thoughts? :)

AreTwo-DeeTwo
01-06-2002, 05:33 PM
I must be the only person that really did not care for LOTR that much. I thought it allright for what it was a book turned into a movie and yes it was done well. To be honest I don't really care to see the next 2 LOTR films. I will but I won't even care until they release it. It certainly has not made me a LOTR fan. The next 2 Star Wars films may suck but I will still enjoy them more than LOTR.

JonoFett
01-06-2002, 05:44 PM
I am not a Tolkien convert by any stretch of the imagination, but sadly LOTR was, undeniably, visually and conceptually more superior to the Phantom Menace, and I think it may well be the case again this year. I hope AOTC & Episode III meets the heightened expectations of many of us who want to see the darkness and ominousness conveyed so brilliantly by Jackson & WETA. I am confident it will. :)

Wolfwood319
01-06-2002, 06:55 PM
I'm a Star Wars fan, but that status has grown weary in the last few months. Every day, I hear something else about either the movie, or the figures, or something else and it makes me care less and less. I will always love the OT, but I think the prequels will go down in history as just a really bad idea.

Its Two Towers and ROTK for me, all the way. And I think most general sci fi/fantasy fans agree.

bigbarada
01-06-2002, 09:09 PM
LOTR: The Two Towers is definitely the movie I'm most excited about for 2002!

Ep2? Ehhh, I'll watch it if I get the chance.

Co Jo-Da
01-07-2002, 01:00 AM
I'm still convinced that Attack of the Clones will be as good as, if not better than Empire Strakes Back...

And now that Lord of the Rings has more than lived up to the hype, it's nice to see so many Star Wars fans jumping off the ship and heading for Middle Earth... I've seen FotR's about 4 times now and I love it more and more each time but the last time I saw it something odd happened: at the beginning when the 'Forbidden' trailer started, the crowd was cheering 'YES' and clapping, the two guys in front of me jumped out of their seats (it was obvious that they hadn't seen it yet) and I could hear them say "wow, that movie looks far better than Episode I, Lucas is the best", OK now fast-forward to the end of the movie, the same two guys yelled out "take that Lucas, you suck..."

Now everyone is making such a big deal about members of N'Sync making cameo appearances in the arena scene, this is just like when the title was released and everyone was shouting how bad it was and that the movie is going to suck @**. Come on, the N'Sync guys are going to be surrounded by a lot of face and some of them will undoubtedly be other famous people. Why is it such a big deal, they'll all die (I know that will make many people happy, aseptically ME).

I like Episode I not as much as the original three but I still like it, Attack of the Clones will be much better maybe the best Star Wars film yet... I'm not knocking Lord of the Rings one little bit, I love the books (I've been reading them my whole life and they've inspired me in my writing just as Star Wars has...) and I loved the movie very much... But it really bugs me that all these Star Wars fans that have waited for coming up on three years now for the next film, to just say hey the movie is going to suck and it's not worth my time...

WELL I GUESS THAT MEANS MORE FOR ME, I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE 'ATTACK OF THE CLONES' BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO A GREAT, YES GREAT MOVIE... I don't care if more people want to see The Two Towers (I really want to see it too but thatís not the point) more than Attack of the Clones, besides the polls are a little byest because Lord of the Rings is still in the theaters and is getting a ton of press and word of mouth (which it does deserve). Lets not forget that the last Star Wars movie came out THREE YEARS AGO, plus Attack of the Clones isn't getting or going to get as much press because GL doesn't want it to...

JonoFett
01-07-2002, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by Wolfwood319
I'm a Star Wars fan, but that status has grown weary in the last few months. Every day, I hear something else about either the movie, or the figures, or something else and it makes me care less and less. I will always love the OT, but I think the prequels will go down in history as just a really bad idea.

Its Two Towers and ROTK for me, all the way. And I think most general sci fi/fantasy fans agree. I have to agree with you, the original trilogy was and will remain far superior to the prequels. I just hope Lucas doesn't spoil things when he "tinkers" with the OT for a future DVD release. It is stating the obvious but I think Jackson is probably going to rain on LFL's parade. Healthy competition is what's needed, and that's what they're getting. Star Wars fans have ALWAYS asked (and pleaded) for prequels that would mirror the dark genre of the ESB, but regrettably it took a New Zealander to deliver it...only not for Star Wars. :)

Co Jo-Da
01-07-2002, 10:49 AM
Go ahead...All the rats can jump off the Star Wars ship, that's just fine by me...

Is it so hard to be a Tolkien/Jackson fan and a Lucas fan at the sametime...I guess it is for some people out there...

Yes, I'm looking forward to see The Two Towers and Return of the King but I am looking more forward to seeing Attack of the Clones and Episode III because I still don't know for sure whats going to happen and thats not the case with Lord of the Rings (I've been reading it since I was 8).

Jedi Clint
01-07-2002, 11:17 AM
It is amusing to see people compare 3 trilogies to one another, when they have only seen one in it's entirety and 1/3 of the other 2!! There is also a genuine difference between one's opinion and facts. Co Jo-Da, you have an excellent point about the timing of the "most anticipated movies of 2002" polls.

JonoFett
01-07-2002, 11:47 AM
There is no switching of allegiances here, I can tell you. Nor am I am a metaphorical rat abandoning any ship.

I will reiterate my stance on this: I am a fervent admirer of the Star Wars saga and am relishing the release of the AOTC and its sequel, but it is not blasphemy to say that TPM was a poor film (as many have stated before me) and that Peter Jackson's interpretation of Tolkien's work (so far) was greatly superior. Moreover, nothing in my opinion will supersede the OT, not even the prequels.

Nothing would please me more than to see AOTC do well at the box office (which is assured) and make a lasting profound impression on followers of Star Wars young and older!! I have every faith.

In summation, I AM NOT A TOLKIEN CONVERT!!! :)

Co Jo-Da
01-07-2002, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Co Jo-Da
Go ahead...All the rats can jump off the Star Wars ship, that's just fine by me...

Is it so hard to be a Tolkien/Jackson fan and a Lucas fan at the sametime...I guess it is for some people out there...

JonoFett, these remarks aren't directed at you personnal... And I completely agree that Fellowship of the Rings is far better than The Phantom Menace, after all FotR just won AFI's Film of the year and is up for many more awards.

But the remarks are being pointed staight at all those 'SO CALLED FANS' out there that are standing up and saying that they shouldn't or won't bather seeing Attack of the Clones just because Fellowship of the Rings was so good. Attack of the Clones has everything that I've wanted to see in a Star Wars film since Return of the Jedi. The Phantom Menace had some really great moments in it (FotR's was solid from beginning to end) but that was all, it was really only a introduction of new face and new places. Attack of the Clones is where the real story of the prequels will start and it bugs me that so many loyal fans are now saying "OH SCREW IT" and that's just sad...

JonoFett
01-07-2002, 04:43 PM
I completely agree with you. Often fandom goes through its highs and lows, and TPM was somewhat of a low point for me and others, but that doesn't disguise the fact that we, the Star Wars community, are about to enter a new, dynamic phase of the saga, one which will see two great films emerging and making the journey to the flicks worthwhile. I enjoyed immensely the LOTR to the extent that it overshadowed Ep1 and most other movies seen recently, but I won't hide the fact that I and many other Star Wars fans will excite at the prospect of 2 further instalments of the Tolkien trilogy, the same as I will enjoy queuing in what will surely be atrocious weather conditions to buy the ticket for AOTC. Roll on May:)

bigbarada
01-07-2002, 08:25 PM
It seems somebody needs to look up 'sarcasm' in the dictionary. Of course we all plan to go see Ep2 when it premieres, we wouldn't be posting in an Ep2 forum if we weren't.

I've always been a fan of LOTR and Star Wars; but since my interests usually gravitate more towards fantasy then I would have to pick LOTR as my favorite in terms of story, characterization and drama. Up until now, though, there has never been a fantasy film that has been on the same production level as a Star Wars film. So now we fans of both have a choice and the more mature, less politically correct FOTR wins out over Ep1 every time.

As a kid in the late 80s I always knew that Star Wars was a great set of films on a visual level; but storywise they were a joke. Constantly stringing the "simple-minded" audience along on one shocking revelation after another, like a cheap soap opera. Relying on short-memories and no attention to detail to carry the faltering plot.

It seems that GL is going back to the same pool with the prequels, only more often. Where he seems determined to shock and surprise us even though we know exactly what is going to happen in the end. It seems he chooses the unexpected over the well-crafted everytime.

Despite all of this, I have always been a fan of the look of Star Wars. In no other story can you find such a diversity of aliens and creatures and locales.

Some may say that I am not a true fan since I don't automatically love everything Star Wars; but, in the end, that's your opinion and you know what everybody says about those.;)

JediTricks
01-07-2002, 11:39 PM
I can only think of 2 "shocking revelations" in the whole classic trilogy (not counting the "shocking" revelation that the Emperor was a powerful sith):
- Vader is Luke's father
- Luke is Leia's sister

Everybody thinks that because Lucas had the world's biggest cinematic shocker at that time, that he did a ton of them, but I really don't think that's the case.

2-1B
01-08-2002, 02:00 AM
My recollection of LotR is that it revolves around a set of rings created by a wizard, and the top ring can be destroyed only by tossing it into the volcano where it was crafted. Wow, I'm impressed. :rolleyes:

If Star Wars is a joke "storywise", as bigbarada suggests, then I fail to see what is so grand about the storyline of LotR. Magical rings are almost as goofy as midichlorians.

bigbarada
01-08-2002, 08:30 AM
If you ever get a chance to read the LOTR books, you'll see that there is so much more to the story than Frodo's quest. Granted storyline preferences are primarily a matter of personal taste and I've heard Tolkien's epic described as everything from genius and revolutionary to imcomprehensible and boring.

The ring itself, which Frodo is trying to destroy is a storytelling device called 'metaphor.' It's meant to represent many things, mainly the evil qualities of humanity. I won't really get too much more into it because I know you're only pretending to be interested. ;)

However, I don't know what to make of midichlorians.:D

JonoFett
01-08-2002, 08:40 AM
Midichlorians, I believe, are Lucas' idea of a cell's power source, which of course would point squarely at mitochondria - the cell's energy source: site of ATP (energy carrier) synthesis !!:D The idea that a low or high concentration of these can influence any degree of symbiosis with the external environment through their "talking" is an utterly ridiculous idea. If I started hearing components of my being "talking" to me, I'd deduce that I was ready for the asylum. Isn't this Schizophrenia?!!:D

JEDIpartner
01-08-2002, 10:58 AM
I, for one, HATE the way Tolkien writes. I could never get into those books as a teen and later (on a second attempt) as an adult. I'm sure the film is good and the story is just fine. I haven't seen the film yet... I hope to, but it's no big deal to me. Sorry. The whole Tolkien thing is lost on me.

BTW- I liked C.S. Lewis MUCH better.:o


originally posted by: JonoFett
The idea that a low or high concentration of these can influence any degree of symbiosis with the external environment through their "talking" is an utterly ridiculous idea. If I started hearing components of my being "talking" to me, I'd deduce that I was ready for the asylum.
I think that whole line of thinking came about when G.Lu was thinking "immaculate conception". Since Anakin supposedly has no father and Shmi birthed him, he was looking towards religious references. Christian spiritualists often say one should "quiet one's mind and soul" in order to hear God speaking to them or to have God "work through" them. So... I feel that he was trying to equate that as some sort of meditation to spiritual connection device.

mabudonicus
01-08-2002, 11:58 AM
So , if we can all agree, and one film "wins", what happens to the loser? The way I see it, if the success of fotr raises the sci fi/ fantasy bar, everybody wins. The media coverage surrounding fotr is bringing to light a fact that has long been lost on the film industry, that being that just because a film is not based on "real life", it doesn't have to be populated by cutesy talking opposums voiced by Bruce willis( or whatever) The idea that one film will rule them all is simply ludicrous, and pretty much totally contrary to the fact of the matter. The bottom line is, if "unreal" no longer means "unrealistic", we don't have to worry about things like GLs porrly thought out attempt to explain the Force with science, thus creating the medicloriants(sic). What was wrong with the force just being a universal energy field? Why did it have to show up in blood tests? People are enjoying fotr, not debating how implausible the rings are,or whatever. Wouldn't it be great to look forward to films again, and enjoy them for what they are? Personally, I'm gonna see the rest of the films in both trilogies, and not lose any sleep over which one "won" Woooooooo!!

bigbarada
01-08-2002, 12:58 PM
CS Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia books were a childhood staple for me, JediPartner. I'm totally stoked that we will be seeing at least some of those stories in movie form soon. I never read Tolkien's books as a kid or teenager because they were a little too thick for me at the time. I fully undestand why some people can't get into the LOTR story and I know that many just have a problem with "sword and sorcery" fantasy stories in general. I don't expect everyone to like LOTR and I'm not on a mission to convert all the wayward Star Wars fans into LOTR fans. Like what you like. Whatever floats yer boat. Can't we all just get along? A bird in hand beats two in the bush. If you wish in one hand and spit in the other, what do you get?

Okay, now that I'm all cliched out, let me clarify that I don't suddenly hate Star Wars now that FOTR has premiered. I've just always been a bigger fan of the SW action figures than of the movies themselves. I mostly attribute this to not seeing any of the films until long after I had started collecting the toys. I started collecting in 1978; but didn't see ANH until it premiered on TV in 1983. By then I had already constructed much more elaborate stories in my imagination than what I saw onscreen. No big deal, just different strokes for different folks. (okay, that was the last cliche, I promise.):cool:

2-1B
01-08-2002, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
If you ever get a chance to read the LOTR books, you'll see that there is so much more to the story than Frodo's quest . . .

Agreed! While I haven't read the books, I am certain that it's the characters and such that add so much. My sarcasm was directed only to the plot of the film. My point was that the storyline in that sense is pretty basic . . . I wonder if many fans of LOTR didn't bring some of their passion for various characters to the film with them, thus enhancing their enjoyment of the film. If so, that's great!

Don't get me wrong, I thought FOTR was a fantastic film - it is so refreshing to see many fans get excited about a film adaptation, rather than being let down. I commend PJ and the cast/crew for quite an accomplishment. :)

2-1B
01-08-2002, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
let me clarify that I don't suddenly hate Star Wars now that FOTR has premiered. I've just always been a bigger fan of the SW action figures than of the movies themselves. I mostly attribute this to not seeing any of the films until long after I had started collecting the toys. I started collecting in 1978; but didn't see ANH until it premiered on TV in 1983. By then I had already constructed much more elaborate stories in my imagination than what I saw onscreen.


That's a really interesting perspective, bigbarada. I can certainly see how your love for fantasy and imagination could really exceed the SW plotline . . . which I find "basic" in the same way that I just referred to LOTR's film plot as "basic".

I hope there's some hope that you'll enjoy the AOTC figures :)

bigbarada
01-08-2002, 10:51 PM
I'm glad we were able to move beyond a Star Wars vs. LOTR debate. Those kinds of arguments always end up boiling down to the elementary school "my dad can beat up your dad" nonsense. I love both SW and LOTR, albeit for different reasons.

I hope that the crap we've been seeing passed off as Ep2 figures is somehow only part of the bigger picture. If not this looks to be Hasbro's biggest blunder since the 1995 steroid-fest. Oh well, I'll still buy a Jango and Boba figure and the Slave 1.

Wolfwood319
01-09-2002, 12:36 AM
No more school-yard arguments! Oh no! Now what will we do?

Co Jo-Da
01-09-2002, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by mabudon
So , if we can all agree, and one film "wins", what happens to the loser? The way I see it, if the success of fotr raises the sci fi/ fantasy bar, everybody wins.

How true that is...

aragorn395
01-10-2002, 10:22 PM
I'm looking forward to The Two Towers. 'Fellowship' was without and argument visually astounding and coupled with Jackson's comittment to Tolkien's rich language, the film wins both my expectations and anticipations more than any star wars film.

bigbarada
01-11-2002, 08:33 AM
Speaking of The Two Towers, check out this pic that ran in the New York Post:cool:

Co Jo-Da
01-11-2002, 12:04 PM
Very cool shot...

SithDroid
01-13-2002, 08:15 PM
I, for one, am more excited at seeing Spiderman than anything this year. Have you seen the new trailer for it? It looks absolutely amazing. If it is anything like X-Men, then it should do great. As far as AOTC and LOTR's TT, I'd have to go with AOTC.

JonoFett
01-13-2002, 08:27 PM
I am praying AOTC and its sequel deliver the goods, but it is a fact LOTR has raised the standard to which others must reach. The benchmark set by Fellowship of the Ring is, I fear, one that will be difficult to supersede. What more does Jackson have to prove with this epic? Nothing! It's ALL finished, and if the books are anything to go by and recent rumours, it's going to be FAN...BLOOMIN'...TASTIC. Come on George, make us proud.:)

jedibear
01-14-2002, 03:01 AM
....that's how "comparing" these movies is to me.

I thoroughly enjoyed Jackson's FOTR....it was obviously a labor of love from everyone involved, and it showed. One of the many things I enjoyed was the fact that the film stands alone...it's not necessary to have read the book to get the movie. Considering how densely detailed the book is, this was quite a feat.

I'm one of the few who come here that enjoyed Episode One...yes, Jar Jar was a bit hard to take at first, but his function in the story actually worked quite well (no, I'm not trying to start another well-worn debate here).
I've been introduced to the prequel's galaxy...now I'm very anxious to see more....

With this new flood of fantasy-sci/fi-adventure dramas we're being blessed with over the next few years I'm reminded of the same situation we had 20 or so years ago...studios decided to jump on the bandwagon after the success of the original SW film and we had alot of genre films to watch. Some were great (ESB, Aliens, Blade Runner, the "Raiders' films) some were okay but still entertaining (DragonSlayer, ST:Wrath of Khan, ET) and some were barely watchable (Krull, Willow, Battle Beyond the Stars), but the point is...for fans, it was a great time at the movies!

Here we are now with several types of sci/fi-fantasy yarns to follow from the great (Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Matrix films[I hope so, anyway]) to the okay but still entertaining (X-Men, Blade, Spiderman[sorry comics fans but I'm not expecting much]) to the ...yes, barely watchable (MIB, Imposter, Final Fantasy, the Mummy films, Tomb Raider).....again, we're lucky enough to have a second wave of stuff to choose from...

Will it all be good? No. And as always, we'll still have spirited discussions as to their quality, but I'm just glad to see a period at the movies like this happen twice in my lifetime!

Go Peter Jackson! Go George Lucas! And especially, GO!! to the one that'll come out of nowhere and blow us all away (whatever that film may be)...

Wolfwood319
01-14-2002, 03:20 AM
Krull is one of my favorite movies of all time, that and Lifeforce. I love talking about movies that no one has ever heard of.

I agree, we have seen a lot of sci-fi/fantasy as of late. Some good (Fellowship, Matrix) some bad, (D&D, Kull the Conqueror) but all in all, I've been pleased. I'm especially looking forward to Spider-Man for 2 unknown reasons. First; Bruce Campbell is in it, second; if it does exceedingly well, there is a slim chance, I hope, of an Evil Dead 4/AOD 2.

I love the OT more than any other saga, but I thought Fellowship was the best movie I've seen in decades. I look forward to the rest of LOTR. But with TPM, and confirmed AOTC facts, I really don't have high hopes for the remaining Star Wars saga.

No one is "abandoning the star wars ship" because FOTR was good. It just puts everything into perspective, and raises the bar. People here will always love Star Wars, that's why they take valuable time out of there day/week/month/etc. to post on these boards. But I think that we must look at everything in perspective. The OT was the greatest, but what have we seen of the PT that has really blown us away the way the OT did.

People are saying that AOTC will be the best SW ever, that's fine, but people said the same thing about TPM, and what have we seen of GL to make us think that AOTC will be any different than TPM?

Just enjoy the movies, whichever films they may be, that's what they're there for.

Co Jo-Da
01-14-2002, 11:27 AM
I hear and agree with you, JediBear... Someday I hope my book/screenplay will get put on to the big screne, when I finished it...