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View Full Version : My Mother died when I was young(SPOILERS INVOLVED)



Kidhuman
04-09-2005, 08:51 PM
Ok, we all no Leia muttered these words. We all no Padme dies at the end of ROTS. I have been thinking that since no where on screen was she ever told about her and Luke being seperated at birth, she considered Mrs. Bail as her mother, and she died young. We know when Alderaan blows up she says father, but nothing more. SO maybe Mrs Bail was who she considered to be mommy. Thoughts....

Beast
04-09-2005, 09:49 PM
Or Padme's death leaves quite the impression on Leia, since she like her brother would be force sensative. :)

Rocketboy
04-09-2005, 11:17 PM
Or Padme's death leaves quite the impression on Leia, since she like her brother would be force sensative. :)I know Padme's is a face that I'd never forget.
:D

scruffziller
04-10-2005, 08:47 AM
We know when Alderaan blows up she says father, but nothing more. SO maybe Mrs Bail was who she considered to be mommy. Thoughts....

Well Luke asks her "Do you remember your mother, your REAL mother" Which indicates Padme for sure. That whole conversation was meant to be about the woman who gave birth to them. It would be pointless to be talking about Mrs. Organa at that time. But it seems to me that Padme is alive for a long enough time for Leia to at least have the impression. OR!!!!! Maybe what Leia is talking about is the feelings(since she would be force sensitive) that Padme was going through with the ordeal of Anikin in EPS 3 while in the womb. She would not need to really have been born yet to feel her sadness, beauty, and kindness. And with the force, each individual has different talents. So Leia may have had that ability where Luke may not have but his destiny lies along a different path with different talents.

Kidhuman
04-10-2005, 08:59 AM
But, if she only knew Bails wife as mother, she could have thought that was her real mother. Force sensitive stuff like what Leia was doing with her kids in EU is possible, but the kids werent the ones doing it, it was Leia. The kids dont know they are "special" in the womb.

scruffziller
04-10-2005, 09:17 AM
The kids dont know they are "special" in the womb.

They don't have to know. Babies don't know what eyes or ears are but they can see and hear. So for Leia, she can see and hear with her force senses.
Anikin in EPS I didn't know he was force sensitive but he was able to use it nonetheless to fly the podracer.

stillakid
04-10-2005, 11:11 AM
Yeah, there's no good rationale to tie the trilogies together with this one, assuming that we see Padme die in ROTS while Leia is still an infant. I find it difficult to believe that ANYONE walked away from ROTJ thinking anything except that Leia was at least a toddler when her mother died. To suggest anything else would be disingenuous from the most probable original intent of the script and the original assumption by the audience.

Most likely that only reason GL is inserting A)Padme's death and B)Obi taking the babies to Tatooine is for gratuitous fan-boy pleasing reasons. I really wish he would pay more attention to his own established story instead of relying on the fanatics in his audience to make excuses for him.

Kidhuman
04-10-2005, 11:47 AM
I really wish he would pay more attention to his own established story instead of relying on the fanatics in his audience to make excuses for him.


I got the same assumption you did. Leia was talking of Padme in ROTJ. I am trying ot figure out heads or tails now that we have a completely different story. Just offering up real solutions.

Perhaps Bail tells her she is his kid. Perhaps he tells her the truth. We dont know because 18 years or so is cut out. FOr her to be a Princess is another story, because Bail would need to be King and his wife Queen. It doesnt add up to me.

rbaumhauer
04-10-2005, 12:01 PM
The easiest way to deal with the whole thing is to just treat the PT for what it is - some sort of grand "Infinities" story that happens to be written by Lucas. The closer you look at it, the less sense it makes.

tagmac
04-10-2005, 01:35 PM
Each of the twins has one factor tying them to their true lineage by the time we get to ANH. Luke obviously keeps the Skywalker name, while Leia is given the title of Princess- which makes perfect sense since Padme' was once Queen.

As for Leia remembering her mother, it's not out of the realm of possibility that Obi-Wan immediately takes Luke at birth, while Leia remains close enough to Padme long enough to sense the sadness in her subconciously through the force - thus the explanation for the "images, feelings" she describes in ROTJ.

This business of only putting in this and Tatooine to impress the fanboys reeks of stupidity! It makes perfect sense for Lucas to include these scenes, basically ending an otherwise downer of a movie with the slightest glint of hope, which we all know will eventually be realized in the OT. Tossing in a pointless scene with Han and Lando running around as kids would be for the fanboys - these scenes with Luke and Leia are crucial points in the story, which actually serve a purpose to tie in the two trilogies.

Lord Malakite
04-10-2005, 03:43 PM
But, if she only knew Bails wife as mother, she could have thought that was her real mother. Force sensitive stuff like what Leia was doing with her kids in EU is possible, but the kids werent the ones doing it, it was Leia. The kids dont know they are "special" in the womb.
Maybe she knew that she was adopted. ;)

Jargo
04-10-2005, 06:18 PM
Pr4obably Lucas will have Carrie do ADR for the revised original trilogy and therefore change the dialogue she has with luke. I'm sure they filmed more than one version of that. alternate angles where we don't necessarily see their lips move with freshly recorded dialogue dubbed over. Or alternatively just cut that whole part from ROTJ. I mean with all this CGI trickery they could film Mark hamill and Carrie fishers mouths now and paste them over the original filmed versions and have a completely different discussion there on that balcony platform. I don't think it has to be tied in actually. And man that Endor scene could do with some editing coz the acting really stinks there. There's no way Leia would think of Bail's wife as her real mother because for a start they have completely different skin colour. I mean c'mon you look at yourself in the mirror and you're pale and white and then you look at you adoptive parents and they're Hispanic... you're gonna know something doesn't equate. Obviously Bail is truthful with Leia at some point when she's old enough to understand. Given that Padme was such a great senator Bail obviously has holovids of some of the senate procceedings and Leia has seen her real mother and has what are known as referred memories. false memories. The human mind can absorb the memories of others and because of vivid imagination come to believe those memories are real. I think Leia remembers a face from her childhood. from a holovid. before all traces of the old republic are completely hiden away out of fear. The Organa's are a bane of the Empire so they wouldn't leave any incriminating evidence lying around to arouse suspicions. Not once Bail gets involved with the rebellion in a real sense of deeds over words. By making Leia complicite in that rebellion effort he helps mold her into the tough leader we know her as. with those false memories. Of course if Lucas adds some scene of Alderaan into the OT he could totally screw it up by having a holovid on the wall of Padme. right there in the Organa's palace/house/apartment.

Elliejabbapop
04-11-2005, 08:47 AM
Personally I think Leia refers to Mrs. Organa. She didn't know Darth was her father and so it's seems perfectly reasonable to me to think that she couldn't know who her REAL mother was, she just made an assumption (who doesn't?).
After all if the twins are force sensitive why didn't Luke sense that Vader was his daddy?
Don't tell me "Leia is more sensitive" or that sort of thing 'cause I think it's crap.
Scruff if somebody said to you "Tell me about your real mother" you'd tell them about the woman that you think is your mother, wouldn't you? I don't know anyone who remembers the day they were born.

stillakid
04-11-2005, 11:21 AM
The easiest way to deal with the whole thing is to just treat the PT for what it is - some sort of grand "Infinities" story that happens to be written by Lucas. The closer you look at it, the less sense it makes.


Hmm, cool. I hadn't thought of it in these terms before, but this is a lot like the Universe. We have a set of rules for what we can see and another set of rules for the subatomic and the search is on for the Theory of Everything (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/) that ties them altogether. GL is trying to teach us physics! Tricky bastard, sneaking education in under the radar like that. Zing!

ronhudy
04-11-2005, 12:56 PM
I think the amount of speculation & assumption on this, and other prequel/Orig. Trilogy story connects, is to assume that George Lucas is being just as attentive and nitpicky as we are being - which he probably isn't, thus the inconsistencies, and there are many. He started the trilogy almost 30 years ago. It's done. He's finished with it (other than possibly releasing it in 3-D). Now, he's nearly done with the prequel trilogy. He's not going to spell out every little nuance for us, and probably doesn't care if he doesn't answer every little burning question in our minds. I can see that trying to explain these storyline inconsistencies within the context of the story itself is going to drive some of you nuts! It's driving me nuts just reading some of them. Just forget it already...you'll sleep better.

The 'Xir
04-11-2005, 11:06 PM
Just forget it already...you'll sleep better.

Nope Sorry, can't! When Mr grand daddy poo-bah, want's us all to sit down and watch this thing like it's one big gigantic 15hr movie, you'd think he'd want to make it coherant(sp?), and make sense! The biggest sign of a poorly constructed story is... questions! There's nothing wrong with raising questions while your watching a movie, a good and engaging movie should make you raise them, but then they should also be answered by films end! If you leave the theater scratching your head...well then I suggest you go buy Head & Shoulders shampoo! And boy do we all need to go buy alot of it! (looks outside),"I think it's snowing...wait-a-minute, it's 65 outside!" :dis:

2-1B
04-12-2005, 12:43 AM
George is obviously content with the whole "Padme died when I was very young as in I was a newborn" because the guy took the measures to actually change the eye color of 'Bas Shaw to match H. Christ when NOBODY would even notice anyway . . . so like it or not, I don't think George made it this way because he wasn't paying attention to what's in ROTJ, he just decided that things "fit" together this way.

I always thought Leia's mom died when she was maybe a toddler or so. :confused: I assumed that since Leia had images and feelings of their mother while Luke did not, well Luke was probably ditched right away while Leia stayed with moms for a bit until she died . . . oh well, guess I was wrong. :D

scruffziller
04-12-2005, 09:33 AM
Scruff if somebody said to you "Tell me about your real mother" you'd tell them about the woman that you think is your mother, wouldn't you? I don't know anyone who remembers the day they were born.

Like I said if Luke was talking about Mrs. Organa he wouldn't have to emphasize in the coversation "REAL".

"Do you remember your mother"-(in the conversation, intial impression Mrs. Organa)
"Your REAL mother"- the woman who gave birth to you.
The question indicated that Luke and Leia know that Leia is adopted. Otherwise what point would the significance of them talking about Mrs. Organa. Luke is asking because he wants some insight from Leia about THEIR mother because Luke knows they are brother and sister. Whether it can be argued what Leia means when she answered, it is what Luke is meaning.

For me, when I talk to someone who is adopted when I ask about their REAL parents everyone understands that it means their birth parents. I may not remember the day I was born, but I have the birth certificate, legal documentaion, and photos of my mom holding me in her arms in the hospital bed, and the family genetics to prove it. Luke certainly means in the conversation(he might as well of said) "Do you remember your mother, your birth mother, who is NOT Mrs. Organa.

Elliejabbapop
04-12-2005, 03:27 PM
Yes but what if she THOUGHT her REAL mother was Mrs. Organa? You don't know that, I don't know that, nobody knows that.......
I don't think Leia had pics of her mother holding her, I don't even think they told her.
Ps. legal documentation can be easily changed, I know that from personal experience ;)

scruffziller
04-12-2005, 04:29 PM
Yes but what if she THOUGHT her REAL mother was Mrs. Organa? You don't know that, I don't know that, nobody knows that.......


The context of the dialougue says it. If she believes that Mrs. Organa is her real mother and knows of no other possibility or person that Luke is mentioning about, she would make a strange face at him and say "what are you talking about?" "Mrs. Organa is my real mother, I know of no other woman who gave birth to me, besides her?"

Let me ask you Elle, who do you think Luke is asking about, just to clear that up firtst off.

OR WAIT A MINUTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HEE HEE, this is going to sound dumb, I'll have to check the graphic novel pages, but what if Mrs. Organa is Padme and she marries Bail?:ermm:

Bantha274
04-12-2005, 06:23 PM
You're all forgetting the part when Luke tells Leia that she is his sister.
She says "I know. Somehow, I've always known."

Therefore, she must have "somehow" always known that her REAL mother was NOT Bail Organa's wife. When asked about her real mother, she says she remembers feelings mostly, but that she was "very beautiful, but sad."
Obviously, someone who is force-sensitive, whether they know it or not at the time, would remember this kind of image as being one of the first images they can recall from their life, even if it was only moments after their birth.

Makes sense to me. Am I the only one?

Also, there's always the possibility that Bail tells Leia about the death of her mother at some point during her life.

Kidhuman
04-12-2005, 06:48 PM
If Bail told her about it, she wouldnt have said she died when she was young. Just she died whilel giving birth to her.

DarthAngel
04-13-2005, 12:13 AM
You're all forgetting the part when Luke tells Leia that she is his sister.
She says "I know. Somehow, I've always known."

Therefore, she must have "somehow" always known that her REAL mother was NOT Bail Organa's wife. When asked about her real mother, she says she remembers feelings mostly, but that she was "very beautiful, but sad."
Obviously, someone who is force-sensitive, whether they know it or not at the time, would remember this kind of image as being one of the first images they can recall from their life, even if it was only moments after their birth.

Makes sense to me. Am I the only one?

Also, there's always the possibility that Bail tells Leia about the death of her mother at some point during her life.



You make a very good point here Bantha.

As we all know(well those of us who have either read the novel or comic) that Padme dies from "having her heart broken by Ani" hence why Leia would say that she was very beautiful but sad.

If she thought that Bail's wife was her real mother then Leia would have said other obvious things, i.e. different color skin tone.

Plus if you remember right after DS2 blows up and Han says he hoped that Luke wasn't on it when it blew, Leia instinctively responds "no he wasn't I can feel it" or if you want to take it one step further, in ESB, even before Luke and Leia knew they were bro and sis, while Luke is dangling from Cloud City, he calls out to Leai through the force, and Leia picks up on it...and I totally forgot where I was going with this...

so bottom line Leia and Lukes discussion about Leia's real mom is about Padme.

JEDIpartner
04-13-2005, 10:30 AM
I honestly don't see the big issue here. I have no problems accepting that Leia has a brief, albeit, intense memory of Padme.

It really isn't that far fetched considering the fact that you have a movie that revolves around a "mystical energy that binds the galaxy together." Yeesh...!!! :rolleyes:

JEDIpartner
04-13-2005, 10:31 AM
If Bail told her about it, she wouldnt have said she died when she was young. Just she died whilel giving birth to her.

Ummmm... "newborn" is considered "very young", you know... :p

Kidhuman
04-13-2005, 10:55 AM
Ummmm... "newborn" is considered "very young", you know... :p


No one likes a smart a**, why do you think I have no friends. :D :beard:

stillakid
04-13-2005, 12:30 PM
oh well, guess I was wrong. :D

Therein lies the difference between "them" and "us." "We" believe that George is "wrong" while "they" believe that the audience has been wrong all along.


Therefore, she must have "somehow" always known that her REAL mother was NOT Bail Organa's wife. When asked about her real mother, she says she remembers feelings mostly, but that she was "very beautiful, but sad."
Obviously, someone who is force-sensitive, whether they know it or not at the time, would remember this kind of image as being one of the first images they can recall from their life, even if it was only moments after their birth.

Makes sense to me. Am I the only one?

Yes, you're the only one. :D Why do you say "obviously" as if being "Force-sensitive" was some kind of omniscient superpower that an audience with questions can just hurl at any problem and get a rationale back? I say that "obviously," no infant is going to remember their mother being beautiful but sad no matter how in tune with the galaxy they are.




It really isn't that far fetched considering the fact that you have a movie that revolves around a "mystical energy that binds the galaxy together." Yeesh...!!!

Why is the energy field so far fetched? :confused: Far from it actually... :

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant

scruffziller
04-14-2005, 09:43 AM
You're all forgetting the part when Luke tells Leia that she is his sister.
She says "I know. Somehow, I've always known."

Therefore, she must have "somehow" always known that her REAL mother was NOT Bail Organa's wife. When asked about her real mother, she says she remembers feelings mostly, but that she was "very beautiful, but sad."
Obviously, someone who is force-sensitive, whether they know it or not at the time, would remember this kind of image as being one of the first images they can recall from their life, even if it was only moments after their birth.

Makes sense to me. Am I the only one?

Also, there's always the possibility that Bail tells Leia about the death of her mother at some point during her life.

Ditto, you are not alone.:D Sorry Stilla.
I actually thought of that point in between posts.

But what is goofy is that I have never met any SW fan or anyone that saw the movies EVER thought that Leia was talking about Mrs. Organa.

Kidhuman
04-14-2005, 10:09 AM
But what is goofy is that I have never met any SW fan or anyone that saw the movies EVER thought that Leia was talking about Mrs. Organa.


BUt she gave the impression that Padme lived on for a few years, not dying after birth. So now that we know the "truth??" about this, it is wrong and no continuity in the story.

Elliejabbapop
04-14-2005, 10:47 AM
At least we've solved the problem that regarded Leia being a princess.
Turn to page 110 of the "Making of" book. Mrs.Organa is a QUEEN. Go girl :p

Kidhuman
04-14-2005, 10:50 AM
At least we've solved the problem that regarded Leia being a princess.
Turn to page 110 of the "Making of" book. Mrs.Organa is a QUEEN. Go girl :p

Ok, does it say when she died? AS compared to Leias birth?

The 'Xir
04-15-2005, 02:15 PM
Makes sense to me. Am I the only one?.

No you're not! We all understand it, but It's just quite the stretch on Georges' part and a hard pill to swallow for most of us who grew up watching these movies believing(as someone stated) that Luke was taken from his mother very early(like as an infant), but Liea remained with her mother atleast for a little while! I always assumed she stayed with her mom(now we know her as Padme) until the age of 4 or 5!
This in part is why I was hoping George would get off this stupid strict guidline of having a 2 1/2 hr movie! There was just too many things to address(especially if he was to inlclude the Jedi purge(which with what we have been given is also not what I had come to know it to be, it only takes a day or two, when I thought it lasted atleast a year)), and doing a 3-4hr movie seemed to work just fine for the LotR trilogy; but now we are still left guessing at stuff or we get cheapened backstories, like this relying on Jedi-like intuition to know thoughts and feelings of your birth mother! Remember most real newborns don't even open their eyes until a day or two after their birth, so how do we even know if Leia even looked at her mother(although I'm sure this will be shown, because they can't actually use a real newborn as part of the cast), although I think even that pic of baby luke shows him with his eyes closed, but that could just be because of the bright twin sunset of Tatooine! ;) :rolleyes:

Ya see, for the fans who grew up with the OT in theatres, read the original novels and then wore out their parents vcr's from '86-00 watching and analyzing every minute detail of this trilogy, there were hints at the backstory in dialogue, the books, and even some EU(that sounded reasonable) that we had come to know and expected to be used as the starting point for, and get fleshed out in, the PT! Here it's the end, and we are still scrathing our heads about stuff, should we know it all? No! However, I guess it just seems void of an overall understanding that can be easily accepted!
Still, RotS should be an awesome, fun and emotional movie, and help punctuate the end of the Saga in grand fashion! I just wish I didn't feel this general ambiguity towards it all, but maybe that will change after my first veiwing of RotS! :neutral:

Bantha274
04-15-2005, 06:29 PM
Maybe we should all wait to see the movie before arguing with each other.

Bottom line is, it's GL's story whether we like it or not and he will tell it however he damn-well wants to. It's up to US, the fans, to decide whether we accept it or not.

JEDIpartner
04-18-2005, 10:55 AM
Why is the energy field so far fetched? :confused: Far from it actually...

I'm not saying that the energy force is far-fetched. The whole premise of this movie is fantasy. The whole thing is just...

Look- If I have to explain the difference between fantasy and reality to ANYONE... they have more problems than those doofuses already waiting in line to see the movie!

:rolleyes:

Kidhuman
04-18-2005, 10:57 AM
Look- If I have to explain the difference between fantasy and reality to ANYONE... they have more problems than those doofuses already waiting in line to see the movie!

:rolleyes:

Amen JP, well said.

Sith Lord 0498
04-18-2005, 02:03 PM
The following is a passage from Scholastic's junior novelization of Revenge of the Sith:

"And a girl," the second droid said. Unlike her brother, this baby's eyes were wide, and she stared in Padme's direction as if she wanted to see and memorize her face.

"Leia," Padme said.

Apparently, Leia's remarks in Return of the Jedi are meant to refer to her "Force memories" of Padme at birth.

Sebulba_Fett
04-18-2005, 09:08 PM
I just noticed something. I have seen numerous arguements on this site in regards to the revelation that Anakin is Vader and how this "spoils" the suprise in ESB. It just dawned on me that I don't think I have once seen someone complain that the other big surprise is being "spoiled" also. I'm talking about the surprise in ROTJ in which we find out that Luke has a twin sister, who turns out to be Leia. I already have my own opinions, but I'm curious to see if anyone is upset about this turn of events. Do you think that it should have been left where Luke is the only one shown being born? This may have also solved the current problem being discussed. If in the hectic last moments of the movie, Obi-Wan grabs infant Luke and high tails it out of the there, which would leave the movie goers wondering what ever became of Padme. They would never even know that she hung on and gave birth to another child. Or possibly, if the other child is shown being born, give the audience one last glimpse of Padme holding "Leia", but don't reveal her name or sex. Then move onto the last moments of the movie. Any thoughts?

stillakid
04-19-2005, 12:50 AM
I just noticed something. I have seen numerous arguements on this site in regards to the revelation that Anakin is Vader and how this "spoils" the suprise in ESB. It just dawned on me that I don't think I have once seen someone complain that the other big surprise is being "spoiled" also. I'm talking about the surprise in ROTJ in which we find out that Luke has a twin sister, who turns out to be Leia. I already have my own opinions, but I'm curious to see if anyone is upset about this turn of events. Do you think that it should have been left where Luke is the only one shown being born? This may have also solved the current problem being discussed. If in the hectic last moments of the movie, Obi-Wan grabs infant Luke and high tails it out of the there, which would leave the movie goers wondering what ever became of Padme. They would never even know that she hung on and gave birth to another child. Or possibly, if the other child is shown being born, give the audience one last glimpse of Padme holding "Leia", but don't reveal her name or sex. Then move onto the last moments of the movie. Any thoughts?

Yes actually and we've talked about it before. :) My feeling has always been that we should have seen a far more reasonable Anakin "shipping out" to go fight in the Clone Wars at the request of Palpatine. Before he goes, he and his wife have one last love making session. Anakin goes off to fight against Padme's wishes.

Obi gets a call from Padme. She is worried about Anakin and wants his "good friend" Obi Wan to go look for him and bring him back before something terrible happens. She is sad. Beautiful, but sad. ;)

Obi Wan goes off in search of Anakin. Somehow Palpatine knows that Obi went to see Padme and tells Anakin, spinning some story that Obi and Padme are having an affair. This is one of the reasons that they have the infamous fight. Obi leaves Anakin believing him dead. More importantly, the audience also believes him to be dead. Obi picks up Anakin's lightsaber and takes it.

Obi heads to see Padme and tell her the news. Yoda is there as now all the Jedi are on the run if they aren't dead. This is the end of the movie as we see the three of them, Obi, Yoda, and a pregnant Padme are left standing as the music swells and the camera tilts into the darkening sky as a war rages overhead. Credits roll.


See how easy that was? Nobody knows who Vader is. Nobody knows that there are twins. The only "secret" that we're not able to "hide" from audiences is the identity of Yoda, so the scene in ESB won't play the same. But everything else was salvagable.

2-1B
04-19-2005, 02:55 AM
Except for, how did Vader figure into Ben's story to Luke ? :)

stillakid
04-19-2005, 09:22 AM
Except for, how did Vader figure into Ben's story to Luke ? :)

I don't understand the question? :confused:

2-1B
04-19-2005, 01:58 PM
"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil . . . he betrayed and murdered your father."

So if this happens

Obi leaves Anakin believing him dead. More importantly, the audience also believes him to be dead. Obi picks up Anakin's lightsaber and takes it.
then how does that fit into Ben's discussion to Luke without making him a Liar with a capital L, that is until 2 movies later when Ben clears it up ?

Sith Lord 0498
04-19-2005, 02:03 PM
I don't understand the question? :confused:

I think Caesar means is that if no one knows who Vader is, then why does Ben say: "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father."

EDIT: Nevermind. Caesar cleared it up while I was typing. :)

stillakid
04-19-2005, 10:53 PM
"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil . . . he betrayed and murdered your father."

So if this happens

then how does that fit into Ben's discussion to Luke without making him a Liar with a capital L, that is until 2 movies later when Ben clears it up ?


Oh, I see. :) That's easy and logical. Just as Vader learned about Skywalker in the interim between IV and V, it is completely plausible and likely that Obi Wan would have learned that Anakin survived the fight as he hid out on the backwater world. It's highly doubtful that he would have isolated himself completely from the events of the galaxy so getting information from smugglers etc. is entirely within the realm of possibility without the needs of intense rationalization that it takes to explain other problems that currently exist with the actual Prequels. :)

2-1B
04-19-2005, 11:59 PM
For me, the big hangup here is about Ben calling Darth Vader a pupil of Ben's until he turned to evil.

So, Obi-Wan would have to duel with Anakin, leave him for dead, and then blame this never-seen pupil for the deed . . . is the audience to believe that Obi-Wan took Vader as his pupil AFTER the events of the Prequel Trilogy and then later killed Anakin ?

Kidhuman
04-20-2005, 12:26 AM
For me, the big hangup here is about Ben calling Darth Vader a pupil of Ben's until he turned to evil.

So, Obi-Wan would have to duel with Anakin, leave him for dead, and then blame this never-seen pupil for the deed . . . is the audience to believe that Obi-Wan took Vader as his pupil AFTER the events of the Prequel Trilogy and then later killed Anakin ?

Technically DV was a pupil until he turned to DV, but as Anakin. Obi was just not telling him that DV is his pops.

2-1B
04-20-2005, 12:34 AM
No kidding. :rolleyes:

:D

I'm talking about it being ONSCREEN though, if you don't "show" Vader, this pupil of Ben's who killed Anakin, then the "secret" is spilled in ANH before we even get to ESB. ;)

stillakid
04-20-2005, 07:03 PM
For me, the big hangup here is about Ben calling Darth Vader a pupil of Ben's until he turned to evil.

So, Obi-Wan would have to duel with Anakin, leave him for dead, and then blame this never-seen pupil for the deed . . . is the audience to believe that Obi-Wan took Vader as his pupil AFTER the events of the Prequel Trilogy and then later killed Anakin ?

Good question. :) Unfortunately, there is no really good answer to it. One of the pitfalls of not writing a large story like this out first is that inevitably, you'll be written into a corner somewhere.

So in this instance, there are really only 3 ways out.

1) Commit to telling the audience that they should watch the movies in production order, not episode order, so as to not ruin the drama as it was written in the original 3 films. Then Gl could do anything in the world he wanted, like showing Anakin actually transform into Darth Vader thus ruining all the drama that was so carefully crafted originally. But as we know, GL IS doing this but also trying to claim that new viewers should watch these in episode order. He can't have it both ways without compromising somewhere.

2) Declare Obi Wan Kenobi a manipulative rat-fink liar. As we all know, some so-called fans have chosen to do this already. The problem with this, from the filmmaker's perspective is that if this is the choice to commit to, then that character flaw should be built into the character from point A so that when this scene arrives 4 episodes down the line, it fits his specific idiom. However, at present, never do we see such a trait from Obi Wan Kenobi either before nor after this scene. So to declare Obi Wan an evil manipulative rat-fink liar would be inconsistent with every other time we see him in the saga.

3) Choice 3 is to look at the scene as if we have watched the films in episode order then try to view the scene in a slightly different light than we did originally. The only way then to interpret Obi's words without calling him names (ie, liar) is to suggest that the scene as written adds "intrigue" to this portion of the plot. What I mean is that while our original interpretation should have been to listen to Obi's story as 100% history, because we see the events play out differently in my hypothetical Prequel, we then can listen to Ben's story with a raised eyebrow wondering what is going on here. That hint of intrigue is built on by Vader's taunting at the end of V and culminates with Yoda's admission and Ben's explanation in 6. In other words, if we look at Ben's initial ANH story as the beginning of a 3 part saga in and of itself regarding Anakin and how he got to be who he is now, then an added layer of dramatic appeal is instantaneously added to the OT without lifting a CGI finger to do it. That is just one way that clever writing can elevate fiction moreso than cheap gags and expensive special effects can. Had Lucas used an actual writer to work on the Prequels, we could be discussing those kinds of finer points and how the Prequels managed to bring additional genius to the OT with seamless effort. But instead, we're stuck having to talk about the what ifs in terms of hypotheticals because what we really have onscreen is a gigantic mess.

Jargo
04-20-2005, 09:27 PM
RETURN OF THE JEDI SHOOTING SCRIPT EXERPT

51 EXT DAGOBAH SWAMP - X-WING 51

Luke wanders back to where his ship is sitting. Artoo beeps a
greeting, but is ignored by his depressed master. Luke kneels
down, begins to help Artoo with the ship, then stops and shakes
his head dejectedly.

LUKE
I can't do it, Artoo. I can't go on alone.

BEN (OS)
Yoda will always be with you.

Luke looks up to see the shimmering image of BEN KENOBI.

LUKE
Obi-Wan! Why didn't you tell me?

The ghost of Ben Kenobi approaches him through the swamp.

LUKE
You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my
father.

BEN
You father was seduced by the dark side of
the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker
and became Darth Vader. When that happened,
the good man who was your father was
destroyed. So what I have told you was
true... from a certain point of view.

LUKE (turning away, derisive)
A certain point of view!

BEN
Luke, you're going to find that many of the
truths we cling to depend greatly on our own
point of view.

Luke is unresponsive. Ben studies him in silence for a moment.

BEN
I don't blame you for being angry. If I was
wrong in what I did, it certainly wouldn't
have been for the first time. You see, what
happened to your father was my fault.

Ben pauses sadly.

BEN
Anakin was a good friend.

Luke turns with interest at this. As Ben speaks, Luke settles on
a stump, mesmerized. Artoo comes over to offer his comforting
presence.

BEN
When I first knew him, your father was
already a great pilot. But I was amazed how
strongly the Force was with him. I took it
upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I
thought that I could instruct him just as
well as Yoda. I was wrong. My pride has
had terrible consequences for the galaxy.

Luke is entranced.

LUKE
There's still good in him.

BEN
I also thought he could be turned back to the
good side. It couldn't be done. He is more
machine now than man. Twisted and evil.

LUKE
I can't do it, Ben.

BEN
You cannot escape your destiny.

LUKE
I tried to stop him once. I couldn't do it.

BEN
Vader humbled you when first you met him,
Luke...but that experience was part of your
training. It taught you, among other things,
the value of patience. Had you not been so
impatient to defeat Vader then, you could
have finished your training here with Yoda.
You would have been prepared.

LUKE
But I had to help my friends.

BEN (grinning at Luke's indignation)
And did you help them? It was they who had to
save you. You achieved little by rushing back
prematurely, I fear.

LUKE (with sadness)
I found out Darth Vader was my father.

BEN
To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront and
then go beyond the dark side - the side your
father couldn't get past. Impatience is
the easiest door - for you, like your father.
Only, your father was seduced by what he
found on the other side of the door, and you
have held firm. You're no longer so reckless
now, Luke. You are strong and patient. And
now, you must face Darth Vader again!

LUKE
I can't kill my own father.

BEN
Then the Emperor has already won. You were
our only hope.

LUKE
Yoda spoke of another.

BEN
The other he spoke of is your twin sister.

LUKE
But I have no sister.

BEN
Hmm. To protect you both from the Emperor,
you were hidden from your father when you
were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if
Anakin were to have any offspring, they would
be a threat to him. That is the reason why
your sister remains safely anonymous.

LUKE
Leia! Leia's my sister.

BEN
Your insight serves you well. Bury your
feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit.
But they could be made to serve the Emperor.

Luke looks into the distance, trying to comprehend all this.

BEN (continuing his narrative)
When your father left, he didn't know your
mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew
he would find out eventually, but we wanted
to keep you both as safe as possible, for as
long as possible. So I took you to live with
my brother Owen on Tatooine... and your mother
took Leia to live as the daughter of Senator
Organa, on Alderaan.

Luke turns, and settles near Ben to hear the tale.

BEN (attempting to give solace with his words)
The Organa household was high-born and
politically quite powerful in that system.
Leia became a princess by virtue of
lineage... no one knew she'd been adopted, of
course. But it was a title without real
power, since Alderaan had long been a
democracy. Even so, the family continued to
be politically powerful, and Leia, following
in her foster father's path, became a senator
as well. That's not all she became, of
course... she became the leader of her cell
in the Alliance against the corrupt Empire.
And because she had diplomatic immunity, she
was a vital link for getting information to
the Rebel cause. That's what she was doing
when her path crossed yours... for her foster
parents had always told her to contact me on
Tatooine, if her troubles became desperate.

Luke is overwhelmed by the truth, and is suddenly protective of
his sister.

LUKE
But you can't let her get involved now, Ben.
Vader will destroy her.

BEN
She hasn't been trained in the ways of the
Jedi the way you have, Luke ... but the Force
is strong with her, as it is with all of your
family. There is no avoiding the battle. You
must face and destroy Vader!

stillakid
04-20-2005, 11:07 PM
Exactly! :) I have a copy of that myself. While obviously some of that never made it to screen, it clearly was the intention by Kasdan and Lucas that Owen was Ben's brother and that Anakin didn't know about the babies. It was written that way originally for a reason, namely that it worked. Why Lucas would go change it is incomprehensible.

Kidhuman
04-23-2005, 11:46 AM
BEN (continuing his narrative)
When your father left, he didn't know your
mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew
he would find out eventually, but we wanted
to keep you both as safe as possible, for as
long as possible. So I took you to live with
my brother Owen on Tatooine... and your mother
took Leia to live as the daughter of Senator
Organa, on Alderaan.



So there you have the script saying that Leia remembers Padme, and Georgie once again muffed up. Can you say Super-Sayan Editions of the OT in a few years?