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View Full Version : Owen was always Anakin's brother.



2-1B
04-21-2005, 12:10 AM
Well, not if you count the ROTJ novelization but follow me here . . . :D

Okay first of all I meant to dig up an old thread but I CAN'T find it, it's called something to the effect of "Do you like the change in Owen and Obi-Wan's relationship?" Anyway I am starting a new thread in its stead.

The idea was brought up in this thread
http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?p=391064#post391064
but it's not exactly fitting with the TPM thread so I'll bring it over here since it deals with AOTC but especially the OT. Growing up I "knew" from the ROTJ novelization that Owen was Obi-Wan's brother so I always watched the OT from that POV . . . but you know what, I'm one person out of a handful who saw it that way.

The VAST number of audience members saw the OT and never had a clue that those 2 old dudes were supposed to be brothers . . . yet now that AOTC has come along and done away with it, showing Owen to actually be Anakin's step-brother (and certainly more fitting of the term "uncle" than Obi's brother would be :p ), I wonder why does it NOW become an issue.

And don't say that it's because the novelization solved the problem. Remember, most people didn't even know about it then and they still don't. Going by what we see ONSCREEN, we have NO reason to believe that Anakin was not Owen's brother. None at all.

So why after AOTC came out is it suddenly a valid criticism to ask WTF was up with that, why Vader wouldn't "look" for Luke there on Tatooine ? (I, for the record, don't think it matters one bit because as far as I can tell, Vader thinks he has no kids so why would he bother going there anyway? :confused: ).

So why didn't people question this in 1983 when ROTJ came out and Vader's identitity was confirmed ? I know they didn't have an internet to spread the news from the novelization, so I'm pretty sure that most people weren't aware that Owen was Obi-Wan's brother. ;)

stillakid
04-21-2005, 08:22 AM
Originally Posted by Caesar
Gotta disagree with you stillakid on account of this technicality:

yes the novelization expanded things to show us that Owen was Obi-Wan's brother but to the 99.5% of the audience who never read the book and never even heard about the connection, Owen was Luke's "uncle" plain and simple. Just about everybody in the audience could assume that it was a real uncle because there is nothing onscreen to dispute it.

I'll dig up an old thread more germaine to the Owen/Obi-Wan thing and continue there.

Naturally, I disagree.

Why? Because of this statement:




BEN
Hmm. To protect you both from the Emperor,
you were hidden from your father when you
were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if
Anakin were to have any offspring, they would
be a threat to him. That is the reason why
your sister remains safely anonymous.

While not an in-your-face statement, the only clear inference one should take from this is that Owen is not really Luke's uncle primarily because it should be more than evident that Obi Wan would NOT hide the potential savior of the galaxy in a place with a man that Anakin would be aware of so personally. It would be like hiding the Bush daughters with Jeb in Florida the next time the law is looking for them for drug violations. Not even W. would be that moronic (...or maybe he would be? ) But apparently, according to the GL Prequels, Obi Wan is that stupid.

Leia being hidden with a completely unrelated family on a totally different planet tells us that Obi Wan and Yoda knew that they had to keep the children very secret while at the same time placing them in a position in which their superpowers might become useful at some later point. Leia was set up in the diplomatic arena where she might be able to work her magic from inside the system. They dropped Luke in a non-assuming dustbowl where the bad guys would never think to look if they ever found out about the children in the first place. From there, presumably, Ben could train Luke before launching that weapon toward the Empire from the outside. With two Skywalker's attacking both from within and without, the chances of success would double. Even the choice of last names tells us quite clearly what the intention was. Leia being "hidden" in plain view required that she take on a new name, Organa. Luke's hiding place was presumed to be so back-water that his last name could remain "Skywalker." That alone would tell us that Owen and Luke are not related. In order for that to be true, Beru would have had to be the natural relative of Luke, meaning that Anakin would have been Beru's brother. We know that isn't true either according to the GL Prequels. So there is still no way to reconcile the new continuity and support the idea that Obi Wan had any intention to actually hide Luke Skywalker safely.

All of that would be for naught if A) the bad guys ever found out about the children, and B) if the bad guys knew where to look for them. As for "A", we'll have to wait for ROTS to see if Lucas is stupid enough to have Anakin know about the pregnancy before he goes off to become Darth Vader. As for "B," he already blew that one with I and II by originating Ani' on Tatooine along with the notion of marrying Shmi off to the Lars family. Dumb dumb dumb.

But to your original assertion that 95% of the people think (thought)


Just about everybody in the audience could assume that it was a real uncle because there is nothing onscreen to dispute it.


that is false to anyone really paying attention to the story. Audiences have become too lazy and expect every drop of information to be spoon-fed to them. The story in between the lines tells us very clearly that "Uncle" Owen isn't an uncle at all, but a necessary surrogate in order to protect Luke from being discovered. The logic of the entire situation tells us this. Well, at least that's the way it was supposed to be.

El Chuxter
04-21-2005, 12:08 PM
There was also a line in one of the Jedi Apprentice books: "He remembered: Owen was his brother's name!" That was Obi-Wan thinking, shortly after a failed attempt to brainwash him.

princethomas
04-21-2005, 06:07 PM
Just a quick thought. Any chance that it just matters that the Emporer doesnt know about Padme's pregnancy? I wonder if Vader does know about Luke, or has some idea about Luke but protects him from the emporer. I would believe that. Obviously, there is no way to get any of this into the movie as it would have to be in the OT. But I just thought, its kind of cool to think that. I dont know. Im just brainstorming

2-1B
04-22-2005, 01:36 AM
While not an in-your-face statement, the only clear inference one should take from this is that Owen is not really Luke's uncle primarily because it should be more than evident that Obi Wan would NOT hide the potential savior of the galaxy in a place with a man that Anakin would be aware of so personally. It would be like hiding the Bush daughters with Jeb in Florida the next time the law is looking for them for drug violations. Not even W. would be that moronic (...or maybe he would be? ) But apparently, according to the GL Prequels, Obi Wan is that stupid.

Meh, it's not a big deal if Anakin doesn't know that his kid is alive or even exists. Bush is a poor example because in that case the feds are already looking for the Bush gals.


Leia being hidden with a completely unrelated family on a totally different planet tells us that Obi Wan and Yoda knew that they had to keep the children very secret while at the same time placing them in a position in which their superpowers might become useful at some later point. Leia was set up in the diplomatic arena where she might be able to work her magic from inside the system. They dropped Luke in a non-assuming dustbowl where the bad guys would never think to look if they ever found out about the children in the first place. From there, presumably, Ben could train Luke before launching that weapon toward the Empire from the outside.

Right. Ben was there to watch over Luke, something he did not do for Leia. Ben is there to keep an eye on Luke so whether his name is Skywalker or Tinkywinky, Ben is there to keep an eye out if Vader shows up. lol


Even the choice of last names tells us quite clearly what the intention was. Leia being "hidden" in plain view required that she take on a new name, Organa. Luke's hiding place was presumed to be so back-water that his last name could remain "Skywalker." That alone would tell us that Owen and Luke are not related. In order for that to be true, Beru would have had to be the natural relative of Luke, meaning that Anakin would have been Beru's brother. We know that isn't true either according to the GL Prequels. So there is still no way to reconcile the new continuity and support the idea that Obi Wan had any intention to actually hide Luke Skywalker safely.

What was Owen and Beru's last name again ? Lars ? Okay, then where on screen during ANH do we find that information ? We don't. ;) You're going offscreen to cite a different last name when there is no mention of it in the film.


All of that would be for naught if A) the bad guys ever found out about the children, and B) if the bad guys knew where to look for them. As for "A", we'll have to wait for ROTS to see if Lucas is stupid enough to have Anakin know about the pregnancy before he goes off to become Darth Vader. As for "B," he already blew that one with I and II by originating Ani' on Tatooine along with the notion of marrying Shmi off to the Lars family. Dumb dumb dumb.

EPISODE 3 SPOILERS . . . .
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as for "A" yes Anakin does know about the pregnancy. That is confirmed. What I'm not sure of yet is if Anakin knows that the baby lived through childbirth but since he knows that Padme died, I am expecting that he believes the child dead as well (he doesn't know about the twin). ESB DVD Redux hints at this when Palps says the rebel is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker and Vader asks how is that possible, so I believe that Anakin thinks the kid died with Padme. That is, at least, until the kid blows up the Death Star and Vader gets the jump on Palpatine in searching for him. lol

as for "B" why the **** would Obi-Wan bother to put the kid with his own brother who doesn't like him when he could just raise the kid himself ? Instead he just dumped the kid off with the closest relation (not counting Leia, of course lol ).

stillakid
04-22-2005, 09:49 AM
Good questions, all. Allow me to address them. :)


Meh, it's not a big deal if Anakin doesn't know that his kid is alive or even exists.
Not a big deal?! Of course it's a big deal. If Anakin knows that that he has offspring, then he can assume that it too would be chock full o' Midichlorians and would likely want to keep that child close. Why? One of two reasons. The first is that if the kid is close by, then Vader could "educate" the child as to Vader's point of view toward the galaxy and have a father and son business later on, either after Palps dies of natural causes or when they decide to overthrow him. The second is what happened more or less: the child would present a threat to the regime and would need to be reigned in.

From the good guy's perspective, the only true way to protect the child(ren) would be to hide them and not allow the bad guys to know about them. We get the DISTINCT idea that this is the case from everything that occurs in the OT. Vader gives no indication at all that he knows about any Skywalker offspring until we hear the name mentioned by him in ESB after Luke comes out of hiding to destroy the Death Star. It is only after that event that Palps shows him ugly mug and the two bad guys discuss the danger.

The alternative that the new Prequels present is a situation in which Anakin/Vader is fully aware of at least one child yet he apparently doesn't feel the need to go looking for him even though he would also be aware that the child is around 20 years old. He apparently also is aware that Obi Wan escaped. So having a rogue Jedi out there along with the knowledge that a baby chock full o' Midichlorians could be a threat should equal a A New Hope in which Vader is hot on the trail of trying to find the child. Yet it is never mentioned even once. It makes no logical sense.




Right. Ben was there to watch over Luke, something he did not do for Leia. Ben is there to keep an eye on Luke so whether his name is Skywalker or Tinkywinky, Ben is there to keep an eye out if Vader shows up. lol
Ben isn't watching Leia because she was hidden in plain view with a new name. Judging from Obi's and Yoda's attitude toward her in ESB and ROTJ, they didn't consider her a viable threat to Vader and the Emperor, at least in terms of attacking them via Force training.

Ben does keep an eye out for Luke, yet at a distance, for good reason. He is a Force beacon. IF the Empire ever arrived on Tatooine and Vader just happened to be with them, his presence might be detected. IF he has a kid living with him, the implications are obvious. But Obi wanted Luke to grow up in a semi-normal family situation instead of on-the-run with a fugitive. So placing the child with his salt of the earth brother, Owen, made complete sense as nobody should ever think to look there in the unlikely event that Vader ever found out about the offspring in the first place.

Why give Luke the Skywalker name? Because he was being primed for a purpose and giving him a connection to his past was deemed important. Despite Yoda's frustration, Luke was bound to find out eventually, either during the battle (as it happened) or after the Empire was defeated. Either way, Luke would almost certainly have to find out that he too was chock full o' Midichlorians lest he fall prey to the same sins of the father...which he ironically does in order to defeat Vader in ROTJ.




What was Owen and Beru's last name again ? Lars ? Okay, then where on screen during ANH do we find that information ? We don't. ;) You're going offscreen to cite a different last name when there is no mention of it in the film.
No, we don't hear it in ANH, but it doesn't matter. If you're going to look at the OT in a vacuum, then it doesn't impact anything. But toss in the Prequel continuity and suddenly we DO know the last name "Lars" and how GL rewrote the "offscreen" continuity to make Anakin semi-related to that family. It is from that point that Pandora's Box is opened and none of it makes much sense anymore.

Had GL left the "offscreen" continuity alone, wherein Owen is Ben's brother, the pieces fit perfectly fine and none of the annoying questions even come up, such as why Obi Wan would choose to hide the "only hope" for the galaxy in the one place in the galaxy that Anakin might even dare to return (to visit mommie's grave). That one question is a problem that just can't be explained away.




EPISODE 3 SPOILERS . . . .
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as for "A" yes Anakin does know about the pregnancy. That is confirmed. What I'm not sure of yet is if Anakin knows that the baby lived through childbirth but since he knows that Padme died, I am expecting that he believes the child dead as well (he doesn't know about the twin). ESB DVD Redux hints at this when Palps says the rebel is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker and Vader asks how is that possible, so I believe that Anakin thinks the kid died with Padme. That is, at least, until the kid blows up the Death Star and Vader gets the jump on Palpatine in searching for him. lol
RUMOR ALERT:



*****

I abhore dealing with conjecture and would prefer to just discuss it after we know for certain what is going to happen, but another piece of the puzzle you bring up that I've heard is that Anakin chokes Padme to death. I don't know if it's true, but it sounds plausible. Certainly worthy of a PG-13. :classic: In that case, it seems to make sense that if he knew that she was preggers, he would assume that the child(ren) would also die. Running from that assumption, we might guess that Obi Wan and/or Yoda discover the dead girl, extract the children, "save" them somehow, and then decide then to split them up which is what leads to that gratuitous and unnecessary scene showing Obi Wan taking Luke to the Lars homestead.


as for "B" why the **** would Obi-Wan bother to put the kid with his own brother who doesn't like him when he could just raise the kid himself ? Instead he just dumped the kid off with the closest relation (not counting Leia, of course lol ).
As I stated above, he wanted Luke to grow up in a family environment instead of living "on the run" with a fugitive. Ben's "Force signature" might give Luke away in the event that he was ever discovered. "Dumping" the kid off with the closest relation worked in this instance because Tatooine was already on the fringe of the galaxy and the homestead was on the fringe of civilization on the planet. It was as close to being off the map as possible while still giving Luke the benefit of a family.

As to why Obi would put Luke with "his own brother who doesn't like him," we can easily see that Owen never understood Obi's "magic" or his position on the war. We see parallels like this in our own lives (except for the magic part of course :D ). We have nutball war and gun-lovers in our own country who feel the need to go shoot something (deer) or somebody (Iraqis) and justify it for some "cause" (deer-overpopulation; Iraqis-bad guys). Owen clearly didn't join in Obi's point of view and would rather he just stay off the radar and earn a good livin' out on the farm. Leave the politics to the fancy city folk. But no, Obi went off to fight in his crusade and Owen didn't approve. Thus the "conflict" between brothers. And what better person to leave Luke with than somebody who will teach Luke how to make an honest living and grow up with "values." It's a story that should touch the heart of every Red State American. :D

2-1B
04-23-2005, 12:00 AM
Now why would you say that is indeed a big deal in the event of Anakin knowing about the kid when I clearly stated that it's not a big deal "if Anakin is not aware of the kid living" ? :D
If ROTS ends with Anakin knowing his baby is alive, then of course that presents a problem because he naturally would want to groom it. I don't contest that.

Okay, let's look at the OT in a vacuum. I maintain that it is still a "problem" because if anything, when Obi-Wan talks about Owen not holding with your father's ideals and he should not have gotten involved, that sounds to me like Owen was a hell of a lot closer to Obi-Wan than he was Owen, that is of course unless Obi-Wan is projecting his own relationship with his brother Owen onto Luke's unnamed father.

Actually, the prequels shore up this scene with Luke and Obi-Wan a bit better, at least Owen had SOME connection to Anakin whereas in the OT Sans Prequels, we hear Obi-Wan telling Luke about how he didn't hold with your father's ideals, blah blah blah.

So if in fact Owen WAS Obi-Wan's brother, then why the heck does Obi-Wan talk about Owen as having an opinion Luke's father when, according to the EU, Obi-Wan didn't even think about Owen until he needed to hide a baby ?

According to the old storyline, Owen didn't even know Anakin yet Obi-Wan's running his mouth about how Owen disagreed with Anakin following Obi-Wan, even though Anakin and Owen have very little in common . . .

And can somebody please explain to me why Obi-Wan says, "he thought your father should have stayed here and not gotten involved" ? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Sounds to me like Anakin in the OT (before the prequels) had at least some knowledge of Tatooine since Owen thought he should have stayed there.

stillakid
04-23-2005, 09:40 AM
Okay, let's look at this sequence by sequence:



INTERIOR: LARS HOMESTEAD -- DINING AREA.

Luke's Aunt Beru, a warm, motherly woman, fills a pitcher with blue fluid from a refrigerated container in the well-used kitchen. She puts the pitcher on a tray with some bowls of food and starts for the dining area.
Luke sits with his Uncle Owen before a table covered with steaming bowls of food as Aunt Beru carries in a bowl of red grain.

LUKE
You know, I think that R2 unit we bought might have been stolen.

OWEN
What makes you think that?

LUKE
Well, I stumbled across a recording while I was cleaning him. He says he belongs to someone called Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Owen is greatly alarmed at the mention of his name, but manages to control himself.

LUKE
I thought he might have meant old Ben. Do you know what he's talking about? Well, I wonder if he's related to Ben.

Owen breaks loose with a fit of uncontrolled anger.

OWEN
That old man's just a crazy old wizard. Tomorrow I want you to take that R2 unit into Anchorhead and have its memory flushed. That'll be the end of it. It belongs to us now.
Here, we can see that Owen is actively trying to discredit Obi Wan's reputation in Luke's mind in case Luke tries to take this stuff seriously. But Luke presses on nonetheless...



LUKE
But what if this Obi-Wan comes looking for him?

OWEN
He won't, I don't think he exists any more. He died about the same time as your father.
Here it is obvious that he is making it up as he goes along...anything to get Luke off this track...



LUKE
He knew my father?

OWEN
I told you to forget it. Your only concern is to prepare the new droids for tomorrow. In the morning I want them on the south ridge working out those condensers.

LUKE
Yes, sir. I think those new droids are going to work out fine. In fact, I, uh, was also thinking about our agreement about my staying on another season. And if these new droids do work out, I want to transmit my application to the Academy this year.

Owen's face becomes a scowl, although he tries to suppress it.

OWEN
You mean the next semester before harvest?

LUKE
Sure, there're more than enough droids.

OWEN
Harvest is when I need you the most. Only one more season. This year we'll make enough on the harvest so I'll be able to hire some more hands. And then you can go to the Academy next year.

Luke continues to toy with his food, not looking at his uncle.

OWEN
You must understand I need you here, Luke.
Owen is definitely concerned that Luke will leave the safety of this backwater homestead and get caught up in the politics that brought him here in the first place...



LUKE
But it's a whole 'nother year.

OWEN
Look, it's only one more season.

Luke pushes his half-eaten plate of food aside and stands.

LUKE
Yeah, that's what you said last year when Biggs and Tank left.

AUNT BERU
Where are you going?

LUKE
It looks like I'm going nowhere. I have to finish cleaning those droids.

Resigned to his fate, Luke paddles out of the room. Owen mechanically finishes his dinner.

AUNT BERU
Owen, he can't stay here forever. Most of his friends have gone. It means so much to him.

OWEN
I'll make it up to him next year. I promise.Now he's just trying to shut Beru up.




AUNT BERU
Luke's just not a farmer, Owen. He has too much of his father in him.

OWEN
That's what I'm afraid of.
Owen knows what happened to Anakin and his mission to keep Luke away from the galactic conflict is clear.








INTERIOR: KENOBI'S DWELLING.
The small, spartan hovel is cluttered with desert junk but still manages to radiate an air of time-worn comfort and security. Luke is in one corner repairing Threepio's arm, as old Ben sits thinking.

LUKE
No, my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter.

BEN
That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved.
In light of the "point of view" ;) that Obi Wan imparts to Luke, we can easily surmise that Ben is merely perpetuating the idea that Anakin WAS Owen's brother and that they all lived happily forever after on Tatooine.

Ok, so at this point you're saying to yourself, "Stillakid, you're rationalizing." :) Maybe, if we look at this line in a vaccuum, but with all the other elements scattered throughout the saga, the only logic that holds up is that Owen and Ben were the brothers and that Anakin didn't know about Owen or Tatooine at all.

The only other alternative is that Anakin was a meathead (because in ANH, he didn't acknowledge the planet where his mother was buried ... a large part of the reason for him turning into evil bad guy according to AOTC ...) and that Obi Wan is a meathead for hiding the only hope for the galaxy in the one place that Anakin/Vader is likely to return to (to visit mommie's grave).

So I suppose the decision is in the viewer's hands: either condemn the Prequels for screwing up the only logical familial relationship possible (and the intended one according to all reliable sources), or condemn the characters themselves for being meatheads.





LUKE
You fought in the Clone Wars?

BEN
Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father.

LUKE
I wish I'd known him.

BEN
He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a good friend. Which reminds me...

Ben gets up and goes to a chest where he rummages around. As Luke finishes repairing Threepio and starts to fit the restraining bolt back on, Threepio looks at him nervously. Luke thinks about the bolt for a moment then puts it on the table. Ben shuffles up and presents Luke with a short handle with several electronic gadgets attached to it.

BEN
I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned-fool idealistic crusade like your father did.
Obi Wan has been keeping this "symbol" of Anakin for a long time, but part of Owen's mission was to protect the boy from being discovered. We can surmise from Owen's previous attitude toward Ben that he never really understood Ben's "jedi" thing or the war. So when Ben arrives with this little baby and asks Beru and Owen to protect him and teach him etc, Owen obviously translates that bias against such "idealism" to Luke. Protecting the boy is more than just keeping the Empire away from him...it also means keeping Luke from wanting to leave home and get caught up in that crazy nonsense that Owen's brother, Obi Wan, and his best friend in the whole wide galaxy, Anakin, did.



And I know that all of this dialogue was not in the film, but it speaks to the filmmaker's intentions at the time it was all being figured out. The words speak for themselves, and from them, we can easily conclude the GL was the meathead who altered the intended story for some unknown reason which to this day, even I still can't figure out.



LUKE
Leia! Leia's my sister.

BEN
Your insight serves you well. Bury your
feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit.
But they could be made to serve the Emperor.

Luke looks into the distance, trying to comprehend all this.

BEN
(continuing his narrative)
When your father left, he didn't know your
mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew
he would find out eventually, but we wanted
to keep you both as safe as possible, for as
long as possible. So I took you to live with
my brother Owen on Tatooine... and your mother
took Leia to live as the daughter of Senator
Organa, on Alderaan.

Luke turns, and settles near Ben to hear the tale.

BEN
(attempting to give solace with his words)
The Organa household was high-born and
politically quite powerful in that system.
Leia became a princess by virtue of
lineage... no one knew she'd been adopted, of
course. But it was a title without real
power, since Alderaan had long been a
democracy. Even so, the family continued to
be politically powerful, and Leia, following
in her foster father's path, became a senator
as well. That's not all she became, of
course... she became the leader of her cell
in the Alliance against the corrupt Empire.
And because she had diplomatic immunity, she
was a vital link for getting information to
the Rebel cause. That's what she was doing
when her path crossed yours... for her foster
parents had always told her to contact me on
Tatooine, if her troubles became desperate.

Luke is overwhelmed by the truth, and is suddenly protective of
his sister.

LUKE
But you can't let her get involved now, Ben.
Vader will destroy her.

BEN
She hasn't been trained in the ways of the
Jedi the way you have, Luke ... but the Force
is strong with her, as it is with all of your
family. There is no avoiding the battle. You
must face and destroy Vader!

Kidhuman
04-23-2005, 10:42 AM
Stillakid, I am borrowing your quote about Leia and her mother going to live on ALderaan for the other thread.

Edit: DIdnt see that Jargo had pout up the script there. Thanks anyways. :D

princethomas
04-24-2005, 01:48 PM
Man this conversation is a good one. From the earliest days of the prequels, I have thought about the conversations with Luke and Owen and the one with Ben and Luke. I definitly never knew of the owen/obi brother relationship until much later. So I never think of them that way. I think that this will work out properly in the end. Without a doubt, GL has spent plenty of time going through the OT and seeing exactly what is said onscreen as he pieces together how to write the PT. So the important thing to think about is how to make this stuff seem correct when watching in 1-6 order. What has to happen in EP3 to make these things in EP4 work?
Now becareful in your responses, I am trying to remain spoiler free. I usually dont venture out of the no spoilers section as I like to theorize with equally uninformed people.

I think it is find if we think Obi-Wan is fibbing to Luke about a couple of things, however what he says has to make some kind of sense. Specifically with regard to the Owen/Ani relationship.

One thing. I dont think its unreasonable that Owen has a decent understanding of Anakin. Its not just that the only met briefly in EP2. Probably he has heard a lot about Anakin from Shmi. He also knows that he went off to become a Jedi. And probably Shmi has fantasized greatly about Anakin being off Saving the Galaxy gallantly. Then he shows up. Is cold and short. He runs off blindly to find his mother. Returns very quickly with her corpse, accomplishing something that 30 men couldnt do in a month. He then leaves, stealing their protocol droid, as quickly as he came to go to the rescue of Obi-Wan Kenobi.

At this point Owen has some pretty weird,and mostly negative feelings about this strange young man. Whom he is forever directly connected with even though he has spent no time with. Now, he is raising his son. Growing older, isolated. Knowing that things in the universe are worse. Burying his head in the sand. Probably Owen thinks Anakin was some kind weird guy. Who had delusions of grandeur and crazy ideals.
Owen is also very aware that Anakin lived with his mom there on Tatooine for a large part of his life. And that he chose to leave. This choice is laid before you etc.

So the line. He didnt hold with your father's ideals, thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved. Really doesnt seem that outlandish to me.

princethomas
04-24-2005, 08:33 PM
Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough" is probably just to say your father would have wanted. Or Yoda and I wanted you to have this.

"But your uncle wouldnt allow it" is probaby very true.

Im not entirely sure that that Vader would Stop at nothing to find his offspring if he knew about him. I tend to think that maybe Vader might be somewhat complicit in allowing Obi-Wan to hide Luke way out on Tatooine. I think its quite possible that Vader wants Obi-Wan to protect Luke from the Emporer. Its possible. I m not saying its true. Vader knows his life is lost but maybe he wants Luke to be safe.

Imperial Monarche
04-26-2005, 04:07 PM
The alternative that the new Prequels present is a situation in which Anakin/Vader is fully aware of at least one child yet he apparently doesn't feel the need to go looking for him even though he would also be aware that the child is around 20 years old. He apparently also is aware that Obi Wan escaped. So having a rogue Jedi out there along with the knowledge that a baby chock full o' Midichlorians could be a threat should equal a A New Hope in which Vader is hot on the trail of trying to find the child. Yet it is never mentioned even once. It makes no logical sense.

Why, who says that Vader and Palps know about the child until ESB. They could think that the baby was dead along with Padme so therefore, there would be no search. Plus, even though they may be aware that Obi-Wan is out there, why waste the time to go look for him when there's a galaxy at their fingertips. Wait for him to build an army and attempt to over throw the Empire. Palps and Vader destroyed the Jedi once, why would they not think that they could do it again?


No, we don't hear it in ANH, but it doesn't matter. If you're going to look at the OT in a vacuum, then it doesn't impact anything. But toss in the Prequel continuity and suddenly we DO know the last name "Lars" and how GL rewrote the "offscreen" continuity to make Anakin semi-related to that family. It is from that point that Pandora's Box is opened and none of it makes much sense anymore.

Had GL left the "offscreen" continuity alone, wherein Owen is Ben's brother, the pieces fit perfectly fine and none of the annoying questions even come up, such as why Obi Wan would choose to hide the "only hope" for the galaxy in the one place in the galaxy that Anakin might even dare to return (to visit mommie's grave). That one question is a problem that just can't be explained away.

Nope...I don't buy that mentality at all. Anakin was a slave on Tatooine, left his mother on Tatooine who ended up dying there while being married to Clegg Lars. Look at it this way, Anakin wasn't there to save his mother because he left her on that "desolate place". Plus, if she had never married into the Lars family, she would have still been Watto's slave and still be very much alive. If I were in Anakin's position, I would have no desire to ever return to Tatooine and have a hatred for the Lars family so great that I would never want to see them again.

stillakid
04-26-2005, 10:02 PM
Why, who says that Vader and Palps know about the child until ESB. They could think that the baby was dead along with Padme so therefore, there would be no search.
I never said there would be a search under those circumstances. The point is that the way TPM and AOTC set this story up, Anakin has ever reason to possibly return to the Lars Homestead, if for nothing else, to visit his mother's grave. Why? Because the clear intention of AOTC was to show us that he was very close to his mother and that her death is, as they say, "all in all it's just a...nother brick in the wall." :D But a large one at that. So while we and Obi don't know if Anakin/Vader ever would revisit the homestead, the possibility still exists. And with that being the case, it seems odd to me that Obi would choose to hide the "last hope" for the galaxy there and allow the child to keep the name "Skywalker." It is a highly illogical situation.



Plus, even though they may be aware that Obi-Wan is out there, why waste the time to go look for him when there's a galaxy at their fingertips. Wait for him to build an army and attempt to over throw the Empire. Palps and Vader destroyed the Jedi once, why would they not think that they could do it again?
Nobody ever suggested that they'd go looking for Obi Wan. As stated above, the situation is just ridiculous as set up by the Prequels. But as for Obi Wan specifically, we know that he puts out Force ripples which Vader can detect. So again, IF Anakin/Vader ever decided to take a sabbatical to see his mother's grave, he would not only discover some kid with his own last name, but he might also "detect" Obi Wan lurking in the foothills.

This entire situation just makes no sense and it is entirely the fault of the Prequels for having set it up this way. No matter whose brother Owen really is, the real problem is the location of Shmi's grave.






Nope...I don't buy that mentality at all. Anakin was a slave on Tatooine, left his mother on Tatooine who ended up dying there while being married to Clegg Lars. Look at it this way, Anakin wasn't there to save his mother because he left her on that "desolate place". Plus, if she had never married into the Lars family, she would have still been Watto's slave and still be very much alive. If I were in Anakin's position, I would have no desire to ever return to Tatooine and have a hatred for the Lars family so great that I would never want to see them again.

Your choice, but you seem to be downplaying the intention of the Prequels which tell us that "Darth Vader" was created, at least partially, by the death of Anakin's mother. Apparently this event, coupled with a couple other minor things and some ego stroking from Palps, causes "the good man who was your father to be destroyed." In short, Vader COULD return to see his mother's grave no matter how much he hates sand, Watto, and the entire planet. She meant everything to him and I doubt that he would ever forget that. But again, the focus is on the wrong thing here. What was really going through Anakin/Vader's mind is inconsequential. What's really important is what Obi Wan considered as he was deciding what to do with Luke. Apparently Obi Wan thought as you do, but that seems entirely optimistic with the fate of the galaxy at stake. He could have taken the kid almost anywhere yet he plops him down in the same homestead as Shmi's grave. That's just lunacy.

2-1B
04-27-2005, 12:56 AM
But what if the last time Obi-Wan saw Anakin, he thought he was dead ? :confused:

In that case, there would be no reason for them to worry about Vader coming back to Tatooine.

stillakid
04-27-2005, 09:12 AM
But what if the last time Obi-Wan saw Anakin, he thought he was dead ? :confused:

In that case, there would be no reason for them to worry about Vader coming back to Tatooine.

Well, now we're moving into pure speculation, ROTS notwithstanding. ASSUMING that ROTS ends with Obi believing Anakin to be dead, we KNOW via the OT that Obi eventually does realize Vader's dual identity. Therefore we can conclude that via spies or something, he realizes what happened. This is akin to Vader finding out the identity of Skywalker between IV and V.

ASSUMING that Obi does leave ROTS believing Anakin to be clinging to life, then he knows obviously. But the important thing is that the AUDIENCE leave the theater believing Anakin to be either dead or definitely on his way there in order to preserve the drama of the OT. Movies leave that kind of thing "up in the air" all the time. ROTS didn't have to be any different, save to placate the drooling short-sighted fanboy mentality that Lucas feels he has to play to.

I think all of this is fine (not ideal, but fine) so long as GL came out admitting that these should be seen in production order. But he still claims that they will play out in episode order and that's a complete fallacy. Absolutely impossible without compromising nearly all the deeper dramatic appeal of the OT.

Kidhuman
04-27-2005, 09:16 AM
Maybe the TV show will explain all.

princethomas
04-27-2005, 08:02 PM
I think all of this is fine (not ideal, but fine) so long as GL came out admitting that these should be seen in production order. But he still claims that they will play out in episode order and that's a complete fallacy. Absolutely impossible without compromising nearly all the deeper dramatic appeal of the OT.



I think you are wrong about this. And I really do understand your point. But you have to wait and see what we have when ROTS comes out. I agree that watching them in production order is probably going to be the optimum way to do it. However. I really think that watching them in Episode order is going to provide a very interesting perspective. I agree that it will DRASTICALLY change the experience of watching the OT for the first time. But I believe it will be different in a very cool way. You are focused on how it will decrease the enjoyment of the experience, but I think it will just be different.

I think watching the OT from the perspective of Obi-Wan and Vader will be very cool. Watching Luke learn about the old world will be very cool having already known it. Not every movie has to have surprises. The unfolding drama and intensity of the OT will still be there, only this time. We are much more aware of Owen and Beru's funny looks and Obi-Wan's "point of view"

stillakid
04-27-2005, 11:31 PM
I think you are wrong about this. And I really do understand your point. But you have to wait and see what we have when ROTS comes out. I agree that watching them in production order is probably going to be the optimum way to do it. However. I really think that watching them in Episode order is going to provide a very interesting perspective. I agree that it will DRASTICALLY change the experience of watching the OT for the first time. But I believe it will be different in a very cool way. You are focused on how it will decrease the enjoyment of the experience, but I think it will just be different.

I think watching the OT from the perspective of Obi-Wan and Vader will be very cool. Watching Luke learn about the old world will be very cool having already known it. Not every movie has to have surprises. The unfolding drama and intensity of the OT will still be there, only this time. We are much more aware of Owen and Beru's funny looks and Obi-Wan's "point of view"

You're right, it will change how one views the OT if they watch the Prequels first. But here's how: when we first watched the OT films without any preconceived notions, the story engaged us so that we were taking the journey along with Luke Skywalker. We integrated ourselves into the story and became invested in the characters and every moment with them.

But knowing all the surprises and secrets ahead of time because the Prequels spread them out like a hooker in need of quick cash, removes every single moment of carefully drawn dramatic appeal so that instead we become passive observers instead of being emotionally involved. Instead of being on the edge of his seat, the future generation audience member will merely sit bored as Luke acts like a fool trying to figure out who that little green guy is and will yawn as Darth Vader announces that he is Luke's father. Ho hum. Those sequences and plot threads were written in a specific manner to evoke specific emotional responses from the audience. Simply suggesting that seeing them in a different way is acceptable demeans the hard and diligent work done by the writers, the directors, and the actors of the time.

It'd be like watching JAWS, except that in the George Lucas version, he tells you ahead of time that the Captain gets eaten and the shark gets blown up. After that bit of exposition, you get to sit back and enjoy 2 hours of pure blah as you already know what's going to happen. Where's the suspense and enjoyment in that? :confused:

2-1B
04-28-2005, 01:40 AM
I am unmoved by that. I was 2 when ESB came out and I do believe I saw that movie before I ever saw ANH, and for the matter I grew up always knowing the ins and outs of Star Wars.

I was never privy to these huge "surprises" be it ESB or ROTJ. My whole life it's just been the Trilogy and I took all the twisting plotlines as givens.

So forgive me for not sympathizing with future audiences and for summing up my position with 2 words: **** em. :evil:

stillakid
04-28-2005, 09:17 AM
I am unmoved by that. I was 2 when ESB came out and I do believe I saw that movie before I ever saw ANH, and for the matter I grew up always knowing the ins and outs of Star Wars.

I was never privy to these huge "surprises" be it ESB or ROTJ. My whole life it's just been the Trilogy and I took all the twisting plotlines as givens.

So forgive me for not sympathizing with future audiences and for summing up my position with 2 words: **** em. :evil:


Fair enough. :) That's the "instant gratification" point of view on how to write the saga. I prefer to think that any linear story should be constructed so that it will work from 1 to infinity so that no matter where the series actually begins, none of it is compromised in any way. But the alternative, as you subscribe to, suggests a more immediate market driven approach. So in response to your post in the Kevin Smith thread, that's the primary difference between most "industry professionals" and the common audience. "We" like to see quality storytelling instead of cheap vicarious short term thrills. Lucas SHOULD have made this work consistently from I - VI but he chose to pander instead. Oh well. :ermm:

2-1B
04-28-2005, 01:03 PM
Who said anything about immediate ? :rolleyes:

I've been watching this **** consistently and ongoing for the past 26 years or so and I was not once, not ever, allowed to take the OT in a linear fashion. I've watched ESB what, probably hundreds of times and every time I see it I know damn well that Vader is going to drop the Daddy bomb on Luke and every time he says it I don't have to sit there like an idiot for 3 years wondering if the next movie will confirm or deny Vader's claim. And you know what else ? It's still a cool freaking movie. lol

I don't feel slighted, and I surely will not feel empathy for future generations. lol

And I still maintain that had they not started with 4, they wouldn't have had those precious little surprises :rolleyes: That is, unless of course they started with Star Wars Episode I Start of the Red Herrings and other overdone and tired Hollywood gimmicks.

2-1B
04-28-2005, 01:15 PM
So in response to your post in the Kevin Smith thread, that's the primary difference between most "industry professionals" and the common audience. "We" like to see quality storytelling instead of cheap vicarious short term thrills.

Thanks for the laugh. lol

What is this about "most" industry professionals, and why can't I find an outpouring of such quality work at my local theater ? POS after POS after POS I see with some nice gems sprinkled inbetween. Maybe George Lucas should hand his movie over to Harvey Weinstein to chop it up and re-edit for him. lol

The film industry is very similar to Wal-Mart, I guess: lots and lots of junk to be had, poor quality, but occasionally you can find something cool.

Excellent example of a lack of concern for quality work: Why did it take this long for Romero to get another crack at his zombie saga ? Nobody gave him funding until after they cashed in on some knockoffs which made money via that instant gratification route. lol

stillakid
04-28-2005, 01:51 PM
And I still maintain that had they not started with 4, they wouldn't have had those precious little surprises :rolleyes: That is, unless of course they started with Star Wars Episode I Start of the Red Herrings and other overdone and tired Hollywood gimmicks.

Well, of course not. Had Lucas begun with Episode I, undoubtedly, II through VI would have played out very differently. But because he DID start in the middle, he has an obligation to tell the story in such a way as to not compromise the earlier work by producing films which detract from that which has already been established. In that, he failed. But he obviously is pleasing some people with this alternative method of creating a "prequel" storyline.



Thanks for the laugh.
Anytime. :)


What is this about "most" industry professionals, and why can't I find an outpouring of such quality work at my local theater ? POS after POS after POS I see with some nice gems sprinkled inbetween. Maybe George Lucas should hand his movie over to Harvey Weinstein to chop it up and re-edit for him.

The film industry is very similar to Wal-Mart, I guess: lots and lots of junk to be had, poor quality, but occasionally you can find something cool.

Excellent example of a lack of concern for quality work: Why did it take this long for Romero to get another crack at his zombie saga ? Nobody gave him funding until after they cashed in on some knockoffs which made money via that instant gratification route.

I didn't say that the quality work always made it to the theater, I just said that most industry professionals strive to create quality instead of just providing cheap vicarious thrills. There's a difference. :)

QLD
04-28-2005, 02:01 PM
I just think it smacked too much of coincedince, just like Anakin building C-3PO.

stillakid
04-28-2005, 02:22 PM
I just think it smacked too much of coincedince, just like Anakin building C-3PO.

:confused: You thought that Owen being Anakin's brother was too coincidental? Or that Owen being Ben's brother was too coincidental?

Either way, having characters related to one another in a story isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's just that in this case, because Luke is dropped off at the Lars estate, it makes more logical sense for Owen to be Ben's brother instead of Anakin's brother. If you were trying to hide something from your former best friend, would you hide it with his own family members? How can that make any logical sense to anyone? :confused:

QLD
04-28-2005, 03:03 PM
:confused: You thought that Owen being Anakin's brother was too coincidental? Or that Owen being Ben's brother was too coincidental?

Either way, having characters related to one another in a story isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's just that in this case, because Luke is dropped off at the Lars estate, it makes more logical sense for Owen to be Ben's brother instead of Anakin's brother. If you were trying to hide something from your former best friend, would you hide it with his own family members? How can that make any logical sense to anyone? :confused:

Basically, I agree with you. I thought Anakin even knowing Owen was a little...well....odd, let alone being related.

2-1B
04-29-2005, 12:55 AM
\m/ Rock on, my LIMP friend.\m/ :)


Well, of course not. Had Lucas begun with Episode I, undoubtedly, II through VI would have played out very differently. But because he DID start in the middle, he has an obligation to tell the story in such a way as to not compromise the earlier work by producing films which detract from that which has already been established. In that, he failed. But he obviously is pleasing some people with this alternative method of creating a "prequel" storyline.

Not what I meant to imply. Sorry. I'm not talking about if George made 1 instead of 4, just saying that if he went the way of having to preserve certain "secrets" :rolleyes: in 4-6 he would have had to made these prequels with a bunch of bad red herrings to throw off the Vader BS. :)


I didn't say that the quality work always made it to the theater, I just said that most industry professionals strive to create quality instead of just providing cheap vicarious thrills. There's a difference.

Oh, well in that case I give your industry a failing grade. lol How many industries can show such a poor level of quality and still stay afloat ? The airlines come to mind but at least they have the government to bail them out. A few other ones too but then we'd be venturing into Rancor Pit material and we'll stay away from that, eh ? lol lol lol


If you were trying to hide something from your former best friend, would you hide it with his own family members? How can that make any logical sense to anyone?

Sure I would, if I thought my former best friend was dead and then later when I found out that he isn't dead, it still wouldn't matter because that friend doesn't even know about the kid, and on top of that (yes all this is logical to me so far, sorry :D ) since I perceive my friend as being dead and gone and not the same villain lumbering around in an iron lung, I wouldn't worry about him coming back to visit his stepbrother whom he only knew briefly. And on top of that, I'd be looming over the ridge keeping an eye on things if for some reason my former best friend WOULD come back. lol

But beyond that, you can refute my post as illogical yet again and I'll give you the last word, fine with me. lol

stillakid
04-29-2005, 07:58 AM
Not what I meant to imply. Sorry. I'm not talking about if George made 1 instead of 4, just saying that if he went the way of having to preserve certain "secrets" :rolleyes: in 4-6 he would have had to made these prequels with a bunch of bad red herrings to throw off the Vader BS. :)
I believe that with some hard work in the writing room by a skilled writer, it could have been done without the bad red herrings. :) But we'll never know now, will we.




Oh, well in that case I give your industry a failing grade. lol How many industries can show such a poor level of quality and still stay afloat ? The airlines come to mind but at least they have the government to bail them out. A few other ones too but then we'd be venturing into Rancor Pit material and we'll stay away from that, eh ? lol lol lol
You and a lot of other people would give the industry a failing grade. :) I didn't say I liked the way the system works, only that this IS how the system works. As for getting "bailed out," moviegoers around the world do that everyday making this one of the most lucrative industries that exists. As the famous quote goes, there's no one to blame but yourselves. :D




Sure I would, if I thought my former best friend was dead and then later when I found out that he isn't dead, it still wouldn't matter because that friend doesn't even know about the kid, and on top of that (yes all this is logical to me so far, sorry :D ) since I perceive my friend as being dead and gone and not the same villain lumbering around in an iron lung, I wouldn't worry about him coming back to visit his stepbrother whom he only knew briefly. And on top of that, I'd be looming over the ridge keeping an eye on things if for some reason my former best friend WOULD come back. lol

But beyond that, you can refute my post as illogical yet again and I'll give you the last word, fine with me. lol
Since we've already been over the rest of what you said, the only thing I'll dispute and clarify in this final statement of yours is the bit about Vader coming back to visit the stepbrother. Not what I ever said at all. What I said was that he might revisit his mother's gravesite. BIG difference. Because we are led to believe that her death is one of the primary reasons Ani goes bye bye. Therefore it is HIGHLY logical to assume that Ani/Vader would return one day to see her. And while there, he could "sense" Luke and find him...that is, if he didn't hear the name "Skywalker" first. Oh, and yeah, one more thing (sorry :D ), we KNOW that Ben knows that Ani survives, so Obi has every reason to believe that one day Ani could return to Shmi's grave. Again, the problem isn't necessarily the familial relationship between Owen and everybody else, but rather the location of Shmi's grave relative to where Luke is taken to be hidden. It makes no logical sense...or at least it shouldn't. ;)

2-1B
05-05-2005, 01:23 AM
He's not going back to Tatooine.

"That name no longer has any meaning for me." Like Ben says, he ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader.

It isn't until a few decades later that he begins to shed the Vader persona as he finds out that he has a son living.

stillakid
05-05-2005, 08:53 AM
He's not going back to Tatooine.

"That name no longer has any meaning for me." Like Ben says, he ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader.

It isn't until a few decades later that he begins to shed the Vader persona as he finds out that he has a son living.

I know that. You know that. Vader knows that. But did Obi Wan know that at the time he has to decide where to take Luke? No way. So the question remains as to why he would jeopardize the fate of the only hope for the galaxy by "hiding" him right next to Shmi's grave. Nobody has offered an answer to that yet..........

2-1B
05-05-2005, 12:54 PM
Sure I did. :)

Obi-Wan believed him dead physically, and then after he found out that he still walks, talks, and crawls on his belly like a reptile lol , he still thought Anakin was "dead."

"The good man who was your father was destroyed."
"He's more machine now, than man."

And for another angle, something I just thought of: Who's to even say that Ben knows where Shmi's corpse was buried ? lol He didn't see it happen and so far we've never heard Anakin tell him about it. lol

princethomas
05-07-2005, 02:05 PM
I dont think that Vader is looking for his offspring. I dont know wether or not Vader will know he has an offspring or not. Clearly the Emperor will not know. But if Vader doesnt know, then he has no reason to look. It is very believable to me that Vader would never go back to Tatooine. That place is nothing but painful memories to him. I ll bet he has stuffed that place down deep into his mind and never gave it a moments thought until the beginning of a new hope when clearly Leia's ship was going there for some purpose. I dont see him as a grave visiting type.

If he does know he may have an offspring. I still think its possible that he may be equally content to stuff his feelings for his son down deep in his mind with the rest of all the painful memories. Its the emperor who knows the offspring will be a threat. I still think that the good in Vader might be willing to let Obi-Wan hide the kid and go along with it so as not to destroy his life too.

Either way. The Owen as Obi-Wan's brother thing never happened and it is stupid. Lucas changed it so that Jedis do not have relatives. That is a good change. It makes Anakin's fall more believable. He was the only Jedi to have a relationship ripped from him. So it works much better. If the only complication that arises from that is that we have to wonder why Obi hid luke in such an obvious place, then that is fine. Ok, its a boneheaded place to hide him? I agree. Except it wasnt, because Vader never found him, so no big whoop. Maybe in ROTS Anakin goes to Tatooine and starts breaking out in hives because hes now allergic to sand. So Obi knows he will never go back there.

2-1B
05-07-2005, 05:31 PM
Thomas, I do agree that Vader isn't heading to Tatooine but I disagree with the idea that he might be content to let his kid(s) go . . . because by the start of ESB, Vader has learned about Luke and figured out that it was his kid, and he was therefore obsessed with finding Luke (doesn't it say that in the ESB crawl ? I think so).

:)

stillakid
05-08-2005, 09:14 PM
And for another angle, something I just thought of: Who's to even say that Ben knows where Shmi's corpse was buried ? lol He didn't see it happen and so far we've never heard Anakin tell him about it. lol

And in that event, it makes the situation even worse. Why? Because it raises the question of why Obi Wan chooses to take Luke there in the first place. The initial rationale is that Obi takes Anakin's offspring to live with "family." Keep in mind, that this is "family" that Obi has never met, living on a planet Obi has only spent a fleeting amount of time on. If Anakin didn't talk about this "family" too much and especially didn't tell Obi about Shmi, then what, praytell, compels Obi Wan to even THINK about taking Luke there much less doing it? It makes absolutely NO logical sense whatsoever. Not a lick. Anakin either talked to Obi about the Lars and Shmi thereby compelling Obi to take Luke there to be with "family" (thereby introducing a boatload of problems already discussed), or Anakin didn't talk to Obi about the Lars and Shmi as you suggest above thereby also introducing a boatload of motivational problems. There is simply no way to look at the Prequel version of events and make any rational sense out of it. Unless we don't "nitpick" and just "enjoy it for what it is." :rolleyes:


;)

2-1B
05-08-2005, 09:40 PM
stillakid, I have never accused you of nitpicking nor have I ever said you should just enjoy this for what it is, so I'll ask you to not bring that stuff up as we discuss these issues or I'm not doing it anymore. Don't project your frustration with other posters onto my opinions, please. :)

As to my comment about Shmi's grave, I meant it quite literally that Anakin may not have told Obi-Wan, "by the way Master, I buried her right outside the garage." lol

I don't think you've made a fair representation of my argument. Just because I think it's possible that Anakin didn't give the exact coordinates of his mom's grave, that doesn't mean Obi-Wan isn't aware of Lars. You're painting me into an either/or scenario which makes it easier for you to denounce my opinion as illogical when what I am saying does not fit into either of those categories.

Yes, Obi-Wan knows about Lars but that does not automatically mean how knows where the grave is. :p

It doesn't matter to me anyway because unless Vader knew that Luke existed, I don't believe he would bother going back to Tatooine.

stillakid
05-08-2005, 10:21 PM
I don't think you've made a fair representation of my argument. Just because I think it's possible that Anakin didn't give the exact coordinates of his mom's grave, that doesn't mean Obi-Wan isn't aware of Lars. You're painting me into an either/or scenario which makes it easier for you to denounce my opinion as illogical when what I am saying does not fit into either of those categories.

Yes, Obi-Wan knows about Lars but that does not automatically mean how knows where the grave is. :p

It doesn't matter to me anyway because unless Vader knew that Luke existed, I don't believe he would bother going back to Tatooine.

We can all choose to believe anything we want to, but the overriding question still remains: what compels Obi Wan Kenobi to 1) even THINK about hiding Luke with the Lars family, and then 2) doing it?

We KNOW that he does both and given the new "canon" continuity that says that Owen is Anakin's step-brother, it still makes no sense that Obi Wan would make this choice. What exactly is the rationale for making the choice? We can surmise that it is so that Luke can grow up with "family." I mean, what else is there? And if that's all there is as a reason, can't you agree that that is extraordinarily weak as a motivation, particularly because this kid drives the entire second trilogy?

See, making Obi Wan and Owen be the brothers and having Anakin/Vader not even remotely related to or have any knowledge about the Lars or Tatooine fits perfectly with the established continuity of the OT. Without argument, it just works.

But altering the original intention introduces all kinds of questions that require significant explaining. And for what? What did the story gain by flipflopping the Obi Wan and Anakin roles in regard to familiarization with Tatooine and the Lars family? Nothing, that's what. The only reason George put Ani on Tattoine is because he was continuing his DUNE homage. Then he had to kill off Shmi so that Anakin could come back just in the nick of time to see her die so he could get angry at Obi Wan (hey, I know it's silly, but GL wrote it, not me). So to get Shmi in that situation, he had to get her away from Watto, so the only thing GL thought about doing was putting her with the Lars family, which also served his nonsensical marketing goal of "linking the trilogies together" with gratuitous nods to short-sighted fanboys.

So for ridiculous reasons, Lucas is forced (by himself and needless concerns) into abandoning the Obi/Lars relationship (which had already been firmly established both in the EU and indirectly in the OT) and using the irrational Anakin/Lars relationship.

So now that we're here, we know that Obi Wan spent all of 48 hours or so on a spaceship on Tatooine in the middle of the desert away from town. The only thing he knows about the place is that it's A) where Anakin came from, and B) it's hot. From that, what would compel him to think of hiding Luke on that planet?

No real answer there, so we look to AOTC. Hmm, no answers there either. So what to do? Surmise that Anakin and Obi talked about Anakin's little outburst and his mother's death at the Lars homestead. Okay, so if we assume that, then we assume that Obi Wan has at least heard of the Lars estate on this planet that he has only ever spent a few hours on counting Midichlorians and fixing hyperdrives.

So THIS is the reason Obi chooses to hide the last and "new hope" for the galaxy on Tatooine (Anakin's origin) in the exact place where his mother is buried (one of the primary reasons for turning to the darkside)? C'mon! We're supposed to believe that a smart guy like Obi Wan is going to hide the "new hope" in the one place in the galaxy, besides Naboo, that Anakin has a connection with? In the one place in the galaxy that his beloved mother is buried? Yeah, the good man who was Anakin was destroyed, but Shmi is built up as one of the PRIMARY reasons Anakin gets all moody and boes bad. I don't believe for a second that Obi Wan would just figure that Anakin would never visit that place in memory of her. Anakin LOVED HER! He had every reason to return and Obi Wan had EVERY REASON to suspect that he would. Which still begs the question: Why there with those people? Why would Obi Wan do that? Why not on Dagobah with Yoda? Why not some other obscure planet that Ani/Darth knows nothing about? Why not Hoth or Yavin? See, that's what Tatooine USED to be, back when Obi and Owen were related. Tatooine was this backwater planet that was so far off the beaten track that it didn't even register a double-take from Vader in ANH. It made complete sense to hide the "new hope" on this desolate place where the grip of the Empire hadn't yet been felt. But nooooooooo. That made to much sense for George "Shakespeare" Lucas. He had to upgrade the story "for the fans" and place Anakin on that planet just so fanboys the world 'round could cream in their pants everytime they saw a younger version of somebody from the OT. I mean, cool, we get lil' Owen and lil' Beru to match our lil' Fett and lil' Chewy and lil' Tarkin. Can't wait for the Galactic Hero versions of all those. :D But for cryin' out loud, why fu** with the story unnecessarily and introduce these needless problems? I don't get it and refuse to rationalize this stuff away. It's the writer's responsibility to create a solid story, not mine to fill in the holes for him.

2-1B
05-08-2005, 10:42 PM
In the novelization for ROTS . . . . . . .

*

*

*

*

*

Yoda tells Obi-Wan to take him to Tatooine since its the closest kin he has. I don't believe this will be shown onscreen in the film, so take it for whatever you think it's worth.
Speaking of the film, in case you haven't seen the new TV ad there is a shot of Yoda telling Obi-Wan "the boy you trained is gone, consumed by Darth Vader he has become." So, again, it doesn't matter that Anakin loved Shmi. She's dead and he's "gone", who cares ? :D

Regardless, we're just going in circles with the same questions cropping up again and since you're still banging the Rationalization Drum, I will bid you adieu for the night.

This bores me. :)

princethomas
05-08-2005, 10:43 PM
Stillakid. First off. Your point is very clear. Its a fair concern. There are a couple things though. You said nothing is gained from switching the Obi/Owen relationship to the Ani/Owen relationship. I think one big thing is gained from this. And furthermore I think your guesses as to the reasons for the switch are also wrong. One thing that was made clear in Menace is that the Jedi children are removed from their homes at the youngest of ages. They have no family in the traditional since. I think this is a huge deal. THIS is the primary reason why Anakin falls to the darkside. He left his family, he has feelings for his mother. He has need of a father figure. "He's like my father" speaking of Obi-Wan. None of the other Jedi feel this way. And it is that way on purpose. Theres is a hard life and needs to be begun from scratch. Yoda and Mace did not want to train him for this reason. Anakin knows what its like to have a family. Or at least a mother. He never feels like he completly belongs with the Jedi. He always feels a bit like an outsider. This is why he falls prey to Palpatine and why he eventually becomes Vader

Obi-Wan cannot have a brother. Lucas decided that this was the way the Jedi order should be, and it makes perfect sense. He probaby hadnt really worked all that out as clearly, when he first said Obi was owen's Brother.

I believe this is why he changed the relationships, and I believe that this is also a great "gain" in the overall story. It makes more sense. It basically sets in motion the fall of Anakin.

stillakid
05-09-2005, 12:53 PM
Thank you for your ideas, princethomas. :) Now, I'll set out to destroy them. :evil: ;)


Stillakid. First off. Your point is very clear. Its a fair concern. There are a couple things though. You said nothing is gained from switching the Obi/Owen relationship to the Ani/Owen relationship. I think one big thing is gained from this. And furthermore I think your guesses as to the reasons for the switch are also wrong.
Those weren't guesses. They were inferences based on the most likely scenario. :)

You fail to mention what is gained from this switch. I'd like to hear what it could possibly be...



One thing that was made clear in Menace is that the Jedi children are removed from their homes at the youngest of ages.
That isn't made clear. Where did you come up with that? TPM infers no such thing at any point. AOTC shows us a kindergarten of sorts, but that too proves nothing except that the Jedi school also teaches youngsters as well as older teens and adults.



They have no family in the traditional since.
Says who? And until you back that up, your following conclusions are very suspect...


I think this is a huge deal. THIS is the primary reason why Anakin falls to the darkside.
No it isn't. The only "traumatic" thing that occurs during TPM is that Anakin leaves his mother. But that wasn't really very traumatic. I mean, he gets bummed out for a second, but she's wayyy more broken up about it than he is. He barely gives her a second thought after that.

AOTC shows us that he's having dreams about his mother being in danger, yet HE does nothing about it. AOTC also shows us multiple times that he whines and complains about being "held back" by Obi Wan, but he also admits that he's being foolish in doing so. So there's a little self-induced "trauma" but that's about it. He does eventually go to Tatooine, but only because Padme decides to take off. Anakin is a horny guy and is willing to go only because she is. Still no trauma there. Once he gets to Tatooine, he finds out that indeed, those dreams were prophetic and he just happens to find her in the nick of time before she croaks. Pretty convenient but that's beside the point. This is the very first REAL trauma that Anakin has in his life and the very first time he exhibits signs of the darkside as he exacts revenge upon the Sandpeople. He's angry because somebody killed his mother. But who wouldn't be. And because Hayd-akin has proven himself to be an irrational bi-polar maniac by this point in the story, it isn't out of the question for him to go ballastic and kill them all in retaliation...and still manage to blame Obi Wan for it somehow. Go figure. :ermm:

THIS is the primary reason he begins to fall to the darkside according to the Prequels. Anakin is an irrational and juvenile brat who thinks he deserves more than he's got while still admitting that he's out of line. He knows that he's an idiot yet continues acting that way anyhow. Palpatine strokes his ego, and because nobody else is, Hayd-akin "I need to be pampered like a movie-star" Skywalker throws in his lot with the bad guys. Pretty f'ing weak setup for what is arguably the most popular movie villain ever, don't you think?



He left his family, he has feelings for his mother. He has need of a father figure. "He's like my father" speaking of Obi-Wan. None of the other Jedi feel this way. And it is that way on purpose.
None of the other "Jedi" feel that way because A) the story isn't about them, and B) we have no idea what they "feel" because the story doesn't follow their every tantrum. You say it's "that way on purpose." What way is that? Why is it on purpose? What function would it serve? Your point wasn't entirely clear.


Theres is a hard life and needs to be begun from scratch.
Hard life? What? Being 'good cop/bad cop' Jedi on the beat? How hard is that? They get fresh clothes, cool weapon, chicks dig 'em. Oh, maybe that's the "hard life." That whole celibacy thing. Haydakin just wants to get laid but he signed on for the priesthood before puberty hit. That does suck...but the rest of them seem to be dealing with it okay. Unless, you know, Yoda and Mace are, you know, AC/DC...Oscar Wilde lovin' friends of Dorothy...you know... ;)



Yoda and Mace did not want to train him for this reason.
Yeah, according to TPM it's because "he's dangerous." Not because he's too young or anything.



OBI-WAN
The boy is dangerous... they all sense it. Why can't you?


Anakin knows what its like to have a family. Or at least a mother. He never feels like he completly belongs with the Jedi. He always feels a bit like an outsider. This is why he falls prey to Palpatine and why he eventually becomes Vader
No, that's wrong. He falls prey to Palpatine because he's a juvenile brat who has feelings of entitlement. His fragile ego is hurt because he feels like Obi Wan is "holding him back." Or so he continually says even though he admits that he is being unreasonable after Padme chastises him about it. It doesn't make much sense to me either, but that's what George wrote. :ermm: But anyway, Anakin clearly has self-esteem issues and Palpatine capitalizes on them. THAT'S why he falls prey to Palpatine's seduction. Now where did these self-esteem issues come from? Who knows. There is ZERO character development inferred between TPM and AOTC which would account for this. Anakin is just a big ol' loser who deserves to get his arse kicked, not somebody with a misguided political point of view or anything noble. Darth Vader used to be a tragic fallen hero-type as described by the OT. Now he's just a punk zero moron.



Obi-Wan cannot have a brother.
Why? Says who?


Lucas decided that this was the way the Jedi order should be,
Okay, fair enough. It's Lucas's story and he can make those kinds of decisions. Except that ....


and it makes perfect sense.
...no, it doesn't given the ESTABLISHED CONTINUITY of the original trilogy films. This is the part that you guys aren't getting. Having Anakin have ANY prior knowledge of Tatooine or the Lars Estate before ANH is disasterous in terms of logical storytelling. Making him be related to the Lars family only makes it worse. I've already described clearly and unabashedly how my statements are absolutely true :D , so now it's your turn to back up that bold statement above and how this new version of continuity "makes perfect sense." I'll be waiting nearby. :)



He probaby hadnt really worked all that out as clearly, when he first said Obi was owen's Brother.
Well, there's no argument here that he didn't work much out...however, he did hire other competent writers who clearly did at the time. But in the interim, Lucas chose to ignore what they had helped him establish in favor of placating legions of slobbering fanboys and their wish for gratuitous original trilogy cameos.


I believe this is why he changed the relationships, and I believe that this is also a great "gain" in the overall story. It makes more sense. It basically sets in motion the fall of Anakin.
Again, you can't just say it and expect it to be true. That's the FOX NEWS way. :rolleyes: You need to back those assertions up with specific scenes, dialogue quotes, quotes from Lucas interviews, and convincing arguments to tie it all together. What exactly is this "gain" you speak of? How can is possibly "make sense"? I mean, seriously, Obi Wan is hiding the "new hope" in the one place in the galaxy (next to Shmi's grave) that Vader/Anakin might one day revisit?! :eek: If that's true, and you find it completely plausible, you must not have a very high opinion of Obi Wan's overall intelligence at all. That's okay. Go ahead and say it. Tell us how stupid you think Obi Wan really is. It's okay to have that opinion. :) No hard feelings. But I'd also like to see all the other instances in the Saga in which Obi Wan exhibits such lunacy. That'd be helpful. Thanks! :) I was also thinking that we ought to start hiding children with the families of child molestors. GREAT place to hide them. The bad guys would never ever run into little kids there. :rolleyes:

:)

Turambar
05-09-2005, 02:28 PM
That's because there is no logical answer. the same reason windu has a purple lightsaber. the same reason for a lot of the poor story writing decisions in these movies: a poor story writer.
Simply, GL wanted to make the fans believe this was a star wars movie, so he gave us tatooine with lil ani instead of luke thinking that was all he needed to acheive the greatness of the prior films. He never stopped to think about the consequences of the move and that it would dumb down the trilogy by turning obiwan into a complete idiot and have viewers scratching there heads through 6 films instead of just 3.
And as the southpark johnny cochran would say, "it doesn't make sense!" so please diregard these movies entirely, ladies and gentlemen of the supposed jury.

princethomas
05-09-2005, 07:13 PM
Stillakid. Take it easy man. I didnt come here to try to tear your happy world down. Overall, I think you have missed the boat on Anakin. But I guess its just a matter of opinion. I dont see him as a brat at all. And you are an idiot if you think that Anakin leaving his mom isnt Traumatic. I mean are you serious. How would you have felt if you left your mom at age 9 or 10 or 8 or whatever it was. Probably pretty darned traumatic. Yes, the choice was clear. If you have the chance to be a Jedi you have to take it. But dont think he wasnt upset about it.

I know you quoted me like 18 different times, but that was just to make yourself look cool I guess. I had really only 2 things to say. No to suggest. As I am not quite so high strung about it.

So the other thing is that Jedis dont know there families. There is some reason to infer it. Ok, Qui-Gon says if he had been born in the Republic we would have identified him early. Perhaps I have reached too far on that. But Marriage and Kids in that traditional sense is forbidden.
So as for the other point. If Obi-Wan and the other jedi DO know their families, brothers mothers, uncles, Fathers and such. This makes you even more wrong. As it would be even MORE obvious why Anakin is lead down the Dark Path. If everyone around him is going home for Thanksgiving and he is stuck eating in the Jedi Temple cafe, probably hes going to miss his mother even more.


Youre like Spock or something. You are so overly obsessed with logic that you fail to see common sense. I cant find strong enough words to describe how stupid it is to think that Anakin leaving his family wasnt traumatic. He was raised in a strange manor, and it really screwed up his head. That is why Palpatine is so alluring to him. He is desperately searching for acceptance, and he chooses the "quick and easy" way from Palpatine.

stillakid
05-09-2005, 11:26 PM
I know you quoted me like 18 different times, but that was just to make yourself look cool I guess. I had really only 2 things to say. No to suggest. As I am not quite so high strung about it.
Puhlease. You don't think too much of other people, do you? :rolleyes: I quote your statements in order to give each statement the respect and attention they deserve. The alternative is to make generic assumptions about your overall post and respond inaccurately. Clearly, since you managed to misinterpret my intentions here I can see how you could have missed so badly with a fictional story.

And just two things to say? Hardly. There were several independent thoughts written in there which didn't seem to connect. If you'd like to rewrite it all in a more cohesive argument, I'd be happy to take a look. But don't assume that I'll glue disparate statements together for you and magically figure out what your two primary points are supposed to be. :) I won't do it for Lucas, and I won't do it for anyone else.


Stillakid. Take it easy man. I didnt come here to try to tear your happy world down. Overall, I think you have missed the boat on Anakin. But I guess its just a matter of opinion. I dont see him as a brat at all. And you are an idiot if you think that Anakin leaving his mom isnt Traumatic. I mean are you serious.
Yes. Why? Because we don't see him being traumatized on film. If it isn't there, then it didn't happen. There is just one instance in TPM when Ani shows even a glimmer of missing mommy, but then it's all gone until years later when the dreams come up during his masturbation scene. Even then, he won't go to see her until his grade-school crush (Padme) tells him that she's going. So tell me just how broken up he really is if it takes the potential for getting laid to go find out if your mom is in trouble.


How would you have felt if you left your mom at age 9 or 10 or 8 or whatever it was. Probably pretty darned traumatic. Yes, the choice was clear. If you have the chance to be a Jedi you have to take it. But dont think he wasnt upset about it.
But then again, I don't remember saying that he didn't care about mommy. Afterall, her death is the primary reason we're given for him turning to the darkside. Well, his perception of the reason she died anyway ("It's all Obi Wan's fault! Wah! :cry: ) He hated that she died, but he never seemed to have any onscreen problem with being away from her. He had access to spaceships and communications equipment. If he was that traumatized, he would have gone to see her instead of waiting until 30 seconds before she died.



So the other thing is that Jedis dont know there families. There is some reason to infer it. Ok, Qui-Gon says if he had been born in the Republic we would have identified him early. Perhaps I have reached too far on that. But Marriage and Kids in that traditional sense is forbidden.
Perhaps, but that's a far cry from suggesting that they don't have families. And that's relevant because the question being asked here is in regard to whether the Owen Lars relationship change matters. You suggested point blank that Jedi don't have families thereby trying to prove that Owen and Ben could not possibly have been brothers. There is absolutely nothing at all in any of the 5 films so far to suggest that any of the Jedi come from single child homes. For all we know, Yoda has an entire flock/gaggle/herd of family members back at home all proud that their little Yoda made it in the big city. In the same vein, it is seriously easy and logical to believe the early EU storyline in which Owen and Ben were brothers. It makes even more sense if they grew up on Tatooine. When everything goes to hell at the end of the Clone Wars, Ben needs a place to hide the kid and himself. What better place than in the armpit of the galaxy where the Empire will never think to look? And it just so happens that he has a brother still living there. Crusty ol' coot, but a solid family environment what with Beru and all. She's a hearty cornfed woman who will bring Luke up right. I know you hate being logical, but that's exactly what that storyline was and why it was dreamed up in the first place by competent writers.

I still haven't heard why this new continuity is so much better and why it adds to the saga. Somehow you felt that if you insulted me it would distract from that primary question. But it still lingers out there, unanswered. Are you a Republican by chance?


So as for the other point. If Obi-Wan and the other jedi DO know their families, brothers mothers, uncles, Fathers and such. This makes you even more wrong. As it would be even MORE obvious why Anakin is lead down the Dark Path. If everyone around him is going home for Thanksgiving and he is stuck eating in the Jedi Temple cafe, probably hes going to miss his mother even more.
What the...?! :eek: :sur: I barely followed that illogic train to the station. When did anyone ever keep Anakin from going home to celebrate Life Day? Anakin whines a lot about Obi Wan holding him back, but he isn't being held prisoner on Coruscant. If he wanted to go visit mommy, he could have gone. But as AOTC proved, he wouldn't even do that until the chick he's now learing at decides to go first. His committment to mommy is suspect, which brings his later rage over her death into severe question. No, he wasn't as traumatized as you are trying to suggest he was or else he would have gone home more often than he obviously did. Nobody kept him prisoner at the Jedi Temple. It didn't happen.



Youre like Spock or something. You are so overly obsessed with logic that you fail to see common sense.
Uh, aren't they the same thing? :sur: You're seriously suggesting that a logical argument is faulty just because your weepy :cry: emotional take on life seems more "correct" somehow? Puhlease. I'd expect that kind of point of view from the Oprah or The View audience, but not from a Star Wars fan. :rolleyes:


I cant find strong enough words to describe how stupid it is to think that Anakin leaving his family wasnt traumatic. He was raised in a strange manor, and it really screwed up his head. That is why Palpatine is so alluring to him. He is desperately searching for acceptance, and he chooses the "quick and easy" way from Palpatine.
The second half of your statement is true, but you're completely assuming the cause in the first. There is nothing in I or II to back up this idea that his being freed from slavery in TPM caused such overt trauma to turn him into Darth Vader. You're taking your own assumptions and overlaying them on the storyline that sits there. This is where logic and objective evaluation win out over sentimental interpretation. I'm just looking at what's really there. You're choosing to rewrite the character arc in your head necessitating the need to fill in the blanks that George left out.

If you're looking for trauma in Anakin's life, I would think that being implanted with an incendiary device would rank pretty high up there over getting to go to the big city to learn how to kill people with a lightsaber and impress hot babes with levitating fruit. Anakin wasn't "traumatized" by leaving his mother. Did he like it? Probably not, but it didn't affect him quite as badly as your leaving your own family clearly has affected you. :ermm:

2-1B
05-10-2005, 12:08 AM
"If it isn't there on film, it didn't happen."

--Yeah, kinda like Owen being Obi-Wan's brother. lol OR kinda like an audience being expected to assume that the phrase "uncle" is not meant in the literal sense, "they" were supposed to assume that it was more an honorary term and not literal. lol

The statement that Anakin only goes to see his mother after Padme says she will go with him is factually incorrect. :)

He tells Padme that his mother is suffering and that he knows he is disobeying his mandate to protect her but he's sorry and he has to go . . . and THEN Padme says she will go with him. She follows him. Not the other way around.

Please stick to the facts of AOTC when trying to cut it down. :p :p :p :p :p

princethomas
05-10-2005, 07:17 AM
Stillakid: I didnt come here to argue. I only follow this thread because it was somewhat interesting. There are some things that you clearly just dont get. I ll take the heat for it though. Im sorry for not being able to explain myself properly. You cant say if it isnt on screen then it isnt there. We are asked to assume quite a bit about Anakin and Obi-Wan from in between 1 and 2 We are clearly going to have to assume quite a bit from between 3 and 4. And this movie about Emotion. Lucas is not a sci-fi geek like most Star Wars fans. This is an emotional story and if you dont get that then I should just bail out of this conversation. If You think Star Wars is just a sci-fi tech story, Id hate to see what other movies you think are "great" Matrix Revolutions probably.

And werent you one of the people that thought that Lucas should end the series with Anakin appearing to die and Darth Vader appearing to be a new Sith Lord that just popped up? Brilliant

stillakid
05-10-2005, 04:43 PM
"If it isn't there on film, it didn't happen."

--Yeah, kinda like Owen being Obi-Wan's brother. lol OR kinda like an audience being expected to assume that the phrase "uncle" is not meant in the literal sense, "they" were supposed to assume that it was more an honorary term and not literal. lol
How dare you use my logic against me?! :D

But really, let's use PrinceAlbert's train of thought and ignore the details in favor of the broader emotional common sense tradition. Even if we ignore the documented previous intended relationship between Obi and Owen, there is still a massive problem in making Owen and Anakin related. It still boils down to Anakin having any prior knowledge concerning the planet and/or the Lars in the first place. I realize that you're pinning your argument entirely on Vader's statement that "that name no longer has any meaning for me," however that doesn't mean that he lost all feeling for his deceased mother. He may have disowned his prior name and the "good man" that supposedly was attached to it (although we aren't privy to it in the Prequels :rolleyes: ), but there is no reason to believe that he would completely ignore his mother and his previous feelings about her. And again, this has nothing to do with the way we see events now and everything to do with the way Obi Wan should be looking at the situation at the moment he has to decide where to hide. He doesn't know Anakin's state of mind at that point so he shouldn't be thinking that the kid would never return to Tatooine to visit the grave. It's a gamble that only a fool would take. So if anyone believes in this new continuity as 100% logical, then you too believe Obi Wan to be a complete moron as well.


"The statement that Anakin only goes to see his mother after Padme says she will go with him is factually incorrect. :)

He tells Padme that his mother is suffering and that he knows he is disobeying his mandate to protect her but he's sorry and he has to go . . . and THEN Padme says she will go with him. She follows him. Not the other way around.

Please stick to the facts of AOTC when trying to cut it down. :p :p :p :p :p
Thanks for the clarification. I'll work on that. :) For the record, I WAS mixing up this following scene and the later exchange on Tatooine.

That said, take a careful look at what happens here and we'll talk about it on the other side...


ANAKIN: No... No... No... Mom!... Don't, no, don't!

EXTERIOR: NABOO LAKE RETREAT, LODGE, BALCONY OVERLOOKING
GARDENS - MORNING

ANAKIN is on the balcony overlooking the gardens. After a
moment, PAMDÉ comes onto the balcony behind him. She sees
he is meditating and turns to go.

ANAKIN: (eyes closed) Don't go.

PAMDÉ: I don't want to disturb you.

ANAKIN: Your presence is soothing.

Brief pause.

PADMÉ: You had a nightmare again last night.

ANAKIN: Jedi don't have nightmares.

PADMÉ: I heard you.

ANAKIN opens his eyes and looks at her.

ANAKIN: I saw my mother. I saw her as clearly as I see you
now. She is suffering, Padmé. They're killing her! She is
in pain... I know I'm disobeying my mandate to protect you,
Senator. I know I will be punished and possibly thrown out
of the Jedi Order, but I have to go. I have to help her!
I'm sorry, Padmé. I don't have a choice.

PADMÉ: I'll go with you. That way you can continue to
protect me, and you won't be disobeying your mandate.

ANAKIN: What about Master Obi-wan?

PADMÉ smiles and takes his hand.

PADMÉ: I guess we won't tell him, will we?

Whine-boy Ani has his infamous masturbation scene and then casually wakes up the next morning looking somewhat refreshed. From the film we can see that he is showered and groomed and well-dressed. He has taken the time to quietly meditate and engage in a light, slow, and comfortable conversation with his would-be girlfriend. Not so bad, eh? What's the problem? ...



ANAKIN
I saw my mother. I saw her as clearly as I see you
now. She is suffering, Padmé. They're killing her! She is
in pain...

Really! In pain? She's suffering? And you knew this when? At least last night and certainly the whole morning if not long before. So why are you just standing there, huh? Just how devoted to your mother can you be if you know she's suffering and yet you take your time lo-llygagging around a luxurious castle? Where's the urgency? PrinceThomas wants us all to believe that Anakin is all torn up inside about leaving his mother, enough so to turn him into evil Darth Vader. But if he really cared that much about her, then what's he doing in a half-sleep out on Padme's balcony? A REAL story would have had the hero realize that there was trouble and then bolt toward it without hesitation. This story fails again and again and again in providing even the slightest of hint that these are actual characters with believable motivations.

stillakid
05-10-2005, 05:18 PM
Stillakid: I didnt come here to argue.
No? Then you just came here to insult me then, eh? :ermm: Whatever. I don't take most people seriously. :) It's all in good fun.



I only follow this thread because it was somewhat interesting. There are some things that you clearly just dont get.
Oh, I "get" it much more than you will probably ever realize. :)


I ll take the heat for it though. Im sorry for not being able to explain myself properly. You cant say if it isnt on screen then it isnt there. We are asked to assume quite a bit about Anakin and Obi-Wan from in between 1 and 2
Damn right. But there is a distinct difference between being asked to assume some things and being asked to fill in plot or character holes. For instance, in between IV and V, we assume that Vader learned who shot the Death Star down. We know this because he says the name Skywalker in the first few minutes of the movie. Do we know how he learned the information? No, but it's not really important. We can infer that spies or the Empire Nightly News told him. Again, not important in that instance.

On the other hand, the leap made from Little Opie Ani in TPM to "Life as a House" Haydakin is enormous. While we could assume that teenage hormones got the best of him and turned him into the brat that we are treated to, it's little things like his near stalker-like devotion to Padme that makes little sense. And while his attention to her is confused, even more so is her relatively automatic devotion to him that confounds the senses. Where in the name of Jiminy Cricket did that relationship come from? :sur:

Bottom line is that some assumptions are okay and even necessary to build a solid cohesive story that plays out in the most dramatic way. But far too much of the Prequels have relied on the audience to rationalize away obvious problems with EU material or just sheer guesses as to the intent. We can play the "George meant this" game all day long, but when we look at what's really sitting there, the ugly truth is impossible to ignore.


We are clearly going to have to assume quite a bit from between 3 and 4.
And why should we have to? Huh? Is it not possible for a qualified writer to construct a 6 part epic in which the audience isn't required to fill in gaps that shouldn't have been left in the first place? I'm not talking about having everything spoon-fed to us. That'd be poor storytelling. It'd be like if George decided to tell us exactly where Boba Fett came from... :sur: Oops :nerv: ... you get the point I hope. :rolleyes:



And this movie about Emotion.
This is a movie about a lot of things. Is there emotion? Yes, of course, I wasn't implying that there wasn't any. But you are suggesting that we A) assume that Anakin is torn up inside about leaving his mother even though he doesn't express it in any way on screen, and B) assume that this is the primary reason why he turns into Darth Vader. Your conclusion is based on an assumption that is unfounded which is why I call into question your reliance on the emotional element of the story.


Lucas is not a sci-fi geek like most Star Wars fans. Actually, he, uh, he is. He was a big Flash Gordon fan as well as Commander Cody. His first feature was THX-1138, a decidely sci-fi story about a bleak future. Among the films he has influenced were Raiders of the Lost Ark which featured a rather "sci fi" element of the supernatural. Willow was influenced by Lucas.


This is an emotional story and if you dont get that then I should just bail out of this conversation. If You think Star Wars is just a sci-fi tech story, Id hate to see what other movies you think are "great" Matrix Revolutions probably.
You've missed the point and are clearly A) not paying any attention to what I've been saying and B) have come to the table with nothing but preconceived notions about me and about Star Wars.

Not that I need to defend myself, but I rather hated the first Matrix, saw the second just in case, and refused to see the third. I hated LOTR, saw the second just in case, and refused to see the third. Matrix suffered from a severe lack of logical plot and LOTR suffered from a lack of character motivation. Both were intensely boring while providing hours of mouth-watering eye candy, much like TPM and AOTC. Had the OT not been so outstanding in their conception and production, we wouldn't be here talking about the Star Wars Prequels as I would have cast them into the pit of poor filmmaking trilogies along with those others. But as fate would have it, I'm an eternal optimist and choose to believe the best in people until they absolutely fail me. While TPM and AOTC have set up an almost impossible foundation to build a success on, I await ROTS with hopeful anticipation in the (unlikely) event that Lucas proves himself to be much smarter than he has apparently shown himself to be (via I and II).

Contrary to what you wish to believe, I enjoy a good story well told, which includes situation and characters which are both extraordinary and engaging in every way. It's just too bad that TPM and AOTC have thus far failed to deliver either. But at least the toys are cool. :cool:


And werent you one of the people that thought that Lucas should end the series with Anakin appearing to die and Darth Vader appearing to be a new Sith Lord that just popped up? Brilliant
Yeah, it is brilliant, and only somebody actually interested in a rational 6 part story would see it. A skilled writer could have and would have concieved the Prequels in a way that would have made that logical and entertaining while not destroying all the drama that was so carefully built in the OT.

Aren't you one of the fanboys who are just interested in getting your rocks off everytime you see a younger version of an OT character? Maybe not. But it's all immaterial as Lucas has decided to puke up every gratuitous element possible in order to allow the legions of short-sighted fanboys to cream happily in their pants. Maybe I'll be visiting the theater a few days after the official opening...you know, to give them time to clean up the floor. :Par:

princethomas
05-10-2005, 05:41 PM
I hated LOTR, saw the second just in case, and refused to see the third. Matrix suffered from a severe lack of logical plot and LOTR suffered from a lack of character motivation. Both were intensely boring while providing hours of mouth-watering eye candy


I take it all back. Lets bury the hatchet. Because regardless of star wars disagreements, you are far too valuable now to not like. I hated upon hated LOTR. I saw the first one and I didnt really care for it. But I assumed it was just the beginning and that there was more to come. I saw the second and thought it was just about the most worthless thing Id ever seen. I went to see the third one, in the hopes that it could be redeemed, as I hate to be the only one on the planet who didnt like them. I was even further upset after that one. Just because, there clearly is a good story here, unfortunately none of it is on screen.

Anyway, I now know that not only are you smart but might in fact be one of only about 5 or 6 of the smartest people on Earth. So I apologize for being snippy and pledge to work out our difference over the next 8 days.

:)

Tom

stillakid
05-10-2005, 08:35 PM
Anyway, I now know that not only are you smart but might in fact be one of only about 5 or 6 of the smartest people on Earth. So I apologize for being snippy and pledge to work out our difference over the next 8 days.

:)

Tom

Tom, I'll assume you're not being facetious, so thank you. :) I don't know how smart I am, but I do know good literature and filmmaking when I see it...and the converse. I honestly believe that without the 20 years of anticipation and almost unreasonable fandom, the Prequels would have died a quick death with a collective ho hum from the audience. Aside from being related to the OT films in name, they bear little resemblance to the tradition of well-rounded storytelling that started it all. My consistent rants are out of utter frustration from seeing the saga that helped influence my life in a very tangible way being ruined because of George's shortsighted ego and lack of talent. He has all the tools available to him to create a story that works on all levels pleasing everyone...but he chose to ignore his responsibility to the established storyline in favor of pandering to his perception of what fans wanted to see. Star Wars is a great story...it's just too bad that Lucas stopped telling it after ROTJ. :ermm:

2-1B
05-11-2005, 01:30 AM
Oh come on stillakid, you're digging way too deep into Anakin's dreams. :D

Yeah, he's been having those dreams BEFORE the *ahem* misnomered 'masturbation scene' :rolleyes: and what did it do about it ? ? ? He told Obi-Wan about it (actually, before the movie even started since Obes already knows) and Anakin says "I DON'T KNOW WHY I KEEP DREAMING ABOUT HER." and Obi-Wan tries to assuage his worries by telling him that "dreams pass in time."

So yeah, after one of a million dreams, the feeling is so intense that after meditating upon it, he decides he needs to go to help Mum. Notice how his dreams amplify as her death draws more near. Also notice that earlier in the film, he DIDN'T KNOW why he kept dreaming about her . . . and when he did figure it out, he decided to go and he told Padme.

As for that dialogue you quoted, it's not all in the movie, especially the part about him asking "what about Obi-Wan."

Now, stillakid, I'm not pinning this totally on you but I bet if I do a search I'll find your name signed to the thesis nailed to the door :D , but I gotta say man, as news was leaking out about who was going to be in AOTC (namely Lars, and more specifically Lars as step-brother to Ani), well I seem to recall people crying foul when that came out for the same or similar reasons that you are arguing now . . . "why hide Luke with family, etc" and this was before we even knew about him burying that old bag of bones outside the garage. :p

New question for you:

In the old timeline where this supposedly genius-enough audience was smart enough to assume that Uncle didn't mean Uncle, what did Luke know and when did he know it ? Did he know that Owen was a brother to Obi-Wan (obviously he didn't, as we can tell onscreen) and since he didn't know, then did they lie to him and tell him that Owen was Anakin's brother ? :confused:

sith_killer_99
05-11-2005, 01:50 AM
Well, I never read the novelizations of the OT films. I always assumed that Owen was Anakin's brother. Though Beru could have been his sister. However, the way Luke jumps at Owen with "He knew my Father!" it made more sense that Luke was under the impression that it was Owen who was Anakin's brother.

As for the whole Tatooine issue, during the OT I assumed that Owen and Beru had hidden away in the outer rim. Why else would they choose to live on Tatooine. LOL

With the PT films it does seem that Tatooine would be the first place Vader would go looking for his offspring.

However...

SPOILER ALERT!!!!







































At the end of ROTS they decide to make it look like Padme' was still pregnant when she died, so that everyone would think she had no surviving offspring. With Anakin/Vader under reconstruction at the time of Padme's death it would be impossible for Anakin/Vader to sense if the baby(s) had lived. Vader may have avoided Tatooine to sever all tied to his former life, it is plausible IMO. Besides I don't think even Vader could sense Luke all the way out in the outer rim. Either way, it still seems like a big risk for Obi-Wan to take Luke to Tatooine, even if he does decide to stay to watch over him.

stillakid
05-11-2005, 10:49 AM
Oh come on stillakid, you're digging way too deep into Anakin's dreams. :D
:confused: :sur: Funny, I didn't think I was digging deep at all. Just commenting on exactly what we see and hear onscreen. :)


Yeah, he's been having those dreams BEFORE the *ahem* misnomered 'masturbation scene' :rolleyes: and what did it do about it ? ? ? He told Obi-Wan about it (actually, before the movie even started since Obes already knows) and Anakin says "I DON'T KNOW WHY I KEEP DREAMING ABOUT HER." and Obi-Wan tries to assuage his worries by telling him that "dreams pass in time."

So yeah, after one of a million dreams, the feeling is so intense that after meditating upon it, he decides he needs to go to help Mum. Notice how his dreams amplify as her death draws more near. Also notice that earlier in the film, he DIDN'T KNOW why he kept dreaming about her . . . and when he did figure it out, he decided to go and he told Padme.

As for that dialogue you quoted, it's not all in the movie, especially the part about him asking "what about Obi-Wan."
I was giving the writer (Lucas) the benefit of the doubt. Since he obviously wrote it at one point, it must have been part of his intention even though it didn't make it into the final print.

But he certainly had no sense of urgency even after deciding to go find her. A leisurely rickshaw trip through beautiful downtown Watto-town before heading inside the Lars Estate for a casual cup o' joe as they "have a lot to talk about." True, Haydakin needed to first find out where mum went and then find out why she wasn't there when he arrived, but did it have to be done with all the urgency of molasses in winter?


Now, stillakid, I'm not pinning this totally on you but I bet if I do a search I'll find your name signed to the thesis nailed to the door :D , but I gotta say man, as news was leaking out about who was going to be in AOTC (namely Lars, and more specifically Lars as step-brother to Ani), well I seem to recall people crying foul when that came out for the same or similar reasons that you are arguing now . . . "why hide Luke with family, etc" and this was before we even knew about him burying that old bag of bones outside the garage. :p
Okay, how much is the bet? :) This is one I know I can win because I haven't got a clue what you're talking about. :sur:


New question for you:

In the old timeline where this supposedly genius-enough audience was smart enough to assume that Uncle didn't mean Uncle, what did Luke know and when did he know it ?
:confused:


Did he know that Owen was a brother to Obi-Wan (obviously he didn't, as we can tell onscreen) and since he didn't know, then did they lie to him and tell him that Owen was Anakin's brother ? :confused:
Well, since we don't get that information on screen or anywhere else, how am I supposed to know? :D We could conjecture all day long and never come up with an actual answer, but honestly, it's not very important. What we do know, or did know as the case may be, is that it made more sense when Anakin had no prior knowledge of Tatooine and the Lars Estate. Giving Anakin's character intimate knowledge and an emotional connection to a specific place...the place where Ben hides the "new hope"...opens up Pandora's Box unnecessarily. It was easy and believable to assume that once Luke's parents died that he was being raised by friends of the family or something. It isn't unreasonable to expect Luke to call Owen "uncle" under those difficult circumstances. Am I "rationalizing" that inconsistency away? Sure, a little bit, but at least it A) makes complete sense, and B) obviously is backed up by George's original documented intention for that relationship between Owen and Ben. Which brings us back to the original problem which states that the relationship change makes no sense at all. :)

princethomas
05-11-2005, 11:46 PM
Stillakid. Yes I was serious. We just see this differently. I happen to really like the prequels thus far. I cant stay here though. Spoiler possibilities are too great. I ll see you again next thursday and we should have a whole new batch of stuff to debate.

-T

2-1B
05-12-2005, 12:15 AM
stillakid, by describing that as the "masturbation scene" yes you ARE digging too deep :D and no, I don't think that's what it looks like he is doing. :rolleyes:

stillakid
05-12-2005, 07:35 AM
stillakid, by describing that as the "masturbation scene" yes you ARE digging too deep :D and no, I don't think that's what it looks like he is doing. :rolleyes:
No, no no. By describing it that way, I'm not digging...I'm making fun of it. :D Waaayyyyy different. Maybe if Haydakin had his hands out where we could see them... :sur: :nerv:

2-1B
05-12-2005, 12:50 PM
Oh, so you weren't digging . . . maybe Hayden was ? lol lol lol

stillakid
05-12-2005, 03:16 PM
Oh, so you weren't digging . . . maybe Hayden was ? lol lol lol


oh, oh, oh, ah, ah ah ah ahahahahahahahh.....whew.... :sur: :nerv:

JON9000
05-14-2005, 11:56 AM
"If it isn't there on film, it didn't happen."
That's pretty much how I look at it. If for no other reason than the Clone Emperor was the lamest thing ever!

stillakid
05-14-2005, 01:36 PM
That's pretty much how I look at it. If for no other reason than the Clone Emperor was the lamest thing ever!

Okay. :) So let's revisit this:


OBI WAN
When I first knew him, your father was
already a great pilot. But I was amazed how
strongly the Force was with him. I took it
upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I
thought that I could instruct him just as
well as Yoda. I was wrong.

When exactly did this happen in the Prequels?

princethomas
05-14-2005, 03:54 PM
Okay. :) So let's revisit this:


OBI WAN
When I first knew him, your father was
already a great pilot. But I was amazed how
strongly the Force was with him. I took it
upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I
thought that I could instruct him just as
well as Yoda. I was wrong.

When exactly did this happen in the Prequels?


This didnt really happen in the prequels, but its a plausible simplification of what happened.

When I was a kid. I kind of thought that Yoda lived on dagobah in the old days and would be jedis went there to train. And that Obi-Wan decided to train Anakin somewhere else without Yoda's help. But what we got in the Prequels is better than that.

So I say, if the above quote doesnt work, then the quote should be changed, not the prequels. Though I dont think the quote should be changed, cuz it gets by well enough

2-1B
05-15-2005, 01:26 AM
Don't why I'm even bothering . . . lol lol lol but what the hell. lol lol lol

"When I first knew him, your father was
already a great pilot."

-He even won a podrace that resulted in enough money for us to fix our ship. lol

"But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him."

-I even told Qui-Gon, 20 Thousand, not even master Yoda has a Force Critter count that high. lol lol lol

"I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi."

-I even told him You will be a Jedi, I promise. lol lol lol

"I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

-Ya see, I mentioned in the first film about somethin' that Yoda taught me, then in the next movie I dropped on by my alma mater to visit . . . see, this is where your old man should have begun his training as a Jedi but I took him and trained him anyway. lol lol lol

---------------------------------------

Can anybody point me to a dictionary that defines the phrase "knew him" to mean "found him" ? ? ? lol

stillakid
05-16-2005, 12:27 AM
Thanks anyway, but that was kind of a hypothetical since we've already got at least one thread about it in which I proved :D my case over and over. ;)

But what Prince said about changing the OT is pretty much the right track. RBaum has said pretty much the same thing and I've concurred that since the Prequels are treading as more EU material than being in line with OT continuity, we are left at a standoff. There is absolutely no way to reconcile continuity staged in the OT with the events being played out in the Prequels without overly significant jiggering of the interpretations, like in your post right above this one. The intent was crystal clear in the OT and to try to squeeze it to fit the PT events does the OT injustice. The only "fix" at this point is to alter the OT to fit the grossly inferior Prequels (shudder :sur: ). We've already seen that Lucas not only is willing to do this, but has already begun the process. It's a f'ing crime. Nobody's going to jail of course, but it's just sad that Lucas went down the dark path instead of taking the high road to a truly great sendoff for his saga. A cryin' shame it is... :(

2-1B
05-16-2005, 02:18 AM
Funny, then I must have missed the thread where you actually explained how the phrase "first knew" means "first found." If it was that damn important, you'd think your boy Larry Kay would have typed "found" and not "knew" on his computer . . . you know, since there are obviously some of us who are too dumb to figure it out. :crazed:

But really, you asked where that stuff was in the newer films and I posted what's on screen. But of course, you're free to choose to believe whatever ya want. :)

princethomas
05-16-2005, 06:52 AM
Well. I have been saying this to some friends for about a week now. So I ll bring it up here.

I think they should remake the original trilogy. I realize some wil say that that is a blasphemy, but I think it makes sense at this point.

For me, the only one apparently who likes the Prequels, can continue to enjoy them at 3 year intervals. I like the way they are doing the prequels. I like their look and feel and I like the story that they are telling. Lucas can continue the story, using the same production style and make a 6 part series that feels a little more consistant.

This benefits you "purists" as well. He can then return the OT to its original form, complete with yub yub song and everything. Then you guys can act like the other movies dont exist, and I enjoy both old and new.

By the way, I watched Return of the Jedi yesterday. That movie is really not very good at all.

stillakid
05-16-2005, 12:14 PM
Funny, then I must have missed the thread where you actually explained how the phrase "first knew" means "first found." If it was that damn important, you'd think your boy Larry Kay would have typed "found" and not "knew" on his computer . . . you know, since there are obviously some of us who are too dumb to figure it out. :crazed:

But really, you asked where that stuff was in the newer films and I posted what's on screen. But of course, you're free to choose to believe whatever ya want. :)

Thanks! :) I'll continue to believe that the original intention was to have Obi Wan and Owen be brothers, that Obi Wan was the one who runs across Anakin, realizes the potential, and makes the rash choice to train him as a Jedi. Why would I continue to believe that? Because that's what was written and filmed both in the screenplays, officially sanctioned novelizations, and the final original films. Call me crazy! :crazed:

What that obviously means is that the Prequels are attempting to establish an entirely new reality and continuity within the Star Wars universe. A guy like PrinceT who, for some reason, thinks that The Phantom Menace is a great film better than any of the Prequels, will advocate that the original solid films be altered (dumbed down as I would call it) to fit this new continuity. I think that if there were a poll, you'd find the opposite, that more people would prefer that the Prequels be torn down to their foundations and rebuilt from the ground up to better reflect the spirit and continuity of the real Star Wars as well as just making them better (watchable) stand-alone movies.

princethomas
05-16-2005, 07:19 PM
Its not about dumbing down. I dont think that they need to be changed at all. Im wondering what changes have been made to the Original Trilogy to accomodate the Prequels? Any? All I can think of is adding Hayden Christensen to the end of Jedi. Which, I dont think is dumbing down. I dont really understand the need to do it. But I dont think it makes much difference one way or the other. But probably we shouldnt talk about that too much until after Wed night. Another is the Emporer's scene in ESB, which needed changing badly, and still wasnt changed enough for my taste. The dialogue in that scene never made any sense and bothered me even when I didnt think they would ever make prequels. The last is the added celebration sequence at the end of Jedi, which is FAR FAR FAR did I mention Far superior to the orignal retarded sequence.

I do like the Phantom Menace. I like it more and more every time I watch it. I like ESB and ANH much more than the prequels. However, ROTJ is a lousy film. It is boring, very little actually happens, the acting is much worse than the prequels. IF Luke/Vader/Ben/Palpatine arent on screen it isnt worth watching.


For the most part I agree with you about the Ben/Owen thing. I just dont think the switch is particularly problematic. The biggest problem is that we come right back to the "Why the hell would Ben hide Luke in the most obvious place in the Universe?" I agree with you, that is stupid. But in the end, so what. No offense to your or GL or anyone else, but the Star Wars universe is pretty much full of dumb stuff like that.

Heres one that is much more bothersome than that. If Leia knows that there is a homing beacon on the falcon, why does she knowingly lead the Death Star right to the Rebel Base. This has bothered me for a long time, maybe you can reason that away for me.


How about, why does Han Not take the money back to Jabba after the Death Star? He s not going to fight so he can take the money back, but then comes back to save the day. Which as I can see would result in only about a 10-15 minute delay in his trip to pay off the Hutt.


Why does Tarkin let tie fighters try to shoot down the Falcon if they are tracking them. Why does Vader Let Stormtroopers shoot at Luke if he is trying to get him to come into the Carbonite chamber?
For show? So that Leia doesnt get wise that its too easy and they are being tracked? Well she did, but she led them right there anyway.

Im not trying to be cute. These are things that bug me. And I havent heard any explanations that are satisfying, I havent heard any at all.



I stand by what I said. Remake the OT. Three year intervals. Just keep right on trucking. That way, the OT people can get their movies back, and the rest of us can have both.

stillakid
05-17-2005, 02:15 PM
Its not about dumbing down. I dont think that they need to be changed at all. Im wondering what changes have been made to the Original Trilogy to accomodate the Prequels? Any?


I stand by what I said. Remake the OT. Three year intervals. Just keep right on trucking. That way, the OT people can get their movies back, and the rest of us can have both.

The changes are coming. "Little things" to "tie the trilogies together." The point is, why change the OT films to fit the Prequels? Why not simply make the Prequels better so that they fit into the already established continuity of the OT? Had Lucas bothered to do that, we wouldn't have these mind-numbing discussions and your "solution" wouldn't be necessary. It WAS possible to create a cohesive whole saga that EVERYBODY would have enjoyed thoroughly, but as it is now, these are two entirely separate storylines and never the twain shall meet.



I do like the Phantom Menace. I like it more and more every time I watch it. I like ESB and ANH much more than the prequels. However, ROTJ is a lousy film. It is boring, very little actually happens, the acting is much worse than the prequels. IF Luke/Vader/Ben/Palpatine arent on screen it isnt worth watching.
Wow. You really think that any of the acting in the Prequels is actually good? I mean, wow. You're not part of the Academy (Oscars) are you? :sur: And what dialogue EXACTLY in ROTJ is indicative of being "bad"? I'd really love to know because for the life of me, I can't think of one moment when it even approaches the level of "Yippee!" in the Prequels. :confused:



For the most part I agree with you about the Ben/Owen thing. I just dont think the switch is particularly problematic. The biggest problem is that we come right back to the "Why the hell would Ben hide Luke in the most obvious place in the Universe?" I agree with you, that is stupid. But in the end, so what. No offense to your or GL or anyone else, but the Star Wars universe is pretty much full of dumb stuff like that. Not really. Sometimes it happens, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's full of it. Certainly not in the OT films.



Heres one that is much more bothersome than that. If Leia knows that there is a homing beacon on the falcon, why does she knowingly lead the Death Star right to the Rebel Base. This has bothered me for a long time, maybe you can reason that away for me.
Of course, since I wasn't there, I can't know exactly why. But my guess, if you want it, is that there was a sense of urgency about this. Going straight to Yavin accomplished two things. One, it provided the Rebellion the plans sooner rather than later so that they might destroy the Death Star before Tarkin fired the weapon again. Two, it brought the Death Star to them. Had Tarkin not known where to go to find the Rebellion, at least that part of it, the Rebels would have had to expend massive resources to go find the Death Star, get all the ships there and then attack. But Leia essentially baited Tarkin into a winner-takes-all scenario. Either the plans were going to be useful right then or they weren't. There was little point in prolonging the inevitable battle.



How about, why does Han Not take the money back to Jabba after the Death Star? He s not going to fight so he can take the money back, but then comes back to save the day. Which as I can see would result in only about a 10-15 minute delay in his trip to pay off the Hutt.
Again, it's all conjecture, but my reasonable guess would be that he now feels a sense of allegiance to the Rebellion. Post Yavin, he sticks with them to help set up a new base of operations. Afterall, we don't really know how much time has passed between Yavin and Hoth, but we can surmise that it wasn't a long time at all. Maybe even a few weeks at most. So when he goes to Reikken, he now feels that the Rebels don't need his help for a while and he has the opportunity to go deal with his own personal problems. While movie time might make it seem like a short venture, I'm sure that it would be far more than a 10-15 minute delay. Probably more likely a week or two if not longer. Plus, he has no reason to trust Jabba, so if something happened, he could at least die knowing that the the Rebellion...and more importantly Leia...was safe.


Why does Tarkin let tie fighters try to shoot down the Falcon if they are tracking them.
It was a trick. If you put a homing beacon on something in order to secretly track it, would you just let the guy go? They would have suspected something immediately. Leia even addresses this when she says, "It's the only reason for the ease of our escape." Had Tarkin REALLY wanted to shoot the Falcon down, he had an entire space station full of TIE Fighters to unleash. But he let his sentry ships be cannon fodder in order to provide the illusion of resistance. Of course Leia was way too smart for that.


Why does Vader Let Stormtroopers shoot at Luke if he is trying to get him to come into the Carbonite chamber?
Same thing. It's a trap. And again, Leia calls the audible. "Luke! It's a trap!" The Troopers were given orders to lead Luke to the chamber. They didn't mean to kill him, but they had to shoot a little bit or else it would have seemed like he was being led into a trap.




Im not trying to be cute. These are things that bug me. And I havent heard any explanations that are satisfying, I havent heard any at all.
These are such basic and self-explanatory non-problems, I've never heard anyone ask before. This is the difference between the OT and the Prequels. The OT is built on logical sequencing of events. The Prequels are chock full o' head scratchers, such as why don't the Naboo guards unload their weapons on Maul instead of standing there with there thumbs up their rear-ends? Just so Qui can boldly say, "We'll handle this?" Better yet, later on in that sequence, Padme yells in the hallway, "We don't have time for this, Captain." No sh**, bit**. It was your stupid idea to go "the long way." Why not tell your boys to use their guns on the bad guy (Maul) next time so that you can get on with your plan instead of running the other way? Moronic writing like that from start to finish. The OT has none of that, at least not on that level of utter juvenile writing.

princethomas
05-17-2005, 06:10 PM
Thats a fair question, but is it really particularly bothersome? I mean Maul would have cut them down in a heartbeat. Is it unbelievable to think that that Padme knew that. She did see, or was at least aware of Maul's prescence on Tatooine.

As for the Leia thing. That is not a logical explanation, that is the explanation of a person who is willing to say "nobody cares." Its absurd for her to knowingly lead the Empire to the Rebel Base. After Tarkin threatened her with the destruction of Alderaan, and tried to use the crazy interrogator floaty ball thing. (which by the way, was really stupid). After all of that. She s going to lead them right to it? Thats ridiculous. They could have flown near there and had someone pick them up. They could have had Han Solo fly to another planet. You said they had R2, but I remind you, they werent really confident that they could find a weakness even after they got the plans from R2. "I only hope a weakness can be found" So the idea that shed lead them to the Rebels door with the possibility that they might spend hours and hours looking at them, find nothing and then having to hurry up and back because the Deathstar has cleared the planet.

Now this doesnt really bother me, but I accept that its just the way it happened. I dont let it bother me. But if you are going to complain about the PT you have to hold the OT to the same standard and I dont think that you are.


As for ROTJ. Blech. Harrison Ford is DREADFUL in that movie. HE is awful. Easily as bad as anything Ive seen in the PT. Mark Hamil is not very good in any of the movies. Id stack Im was going into Toshi station to buy some power converters up against any lame line from the PT.

Keep in mind. I dont like the PT better than the OT. Not at all. But I do like it. I think you are asking for too much. What is/was great about Star Wars is the big picture. It was a technological masterpiece and it was a revolutionary in the world of "Blockbusters" Everyone has been trying to remake Star Wars ever since. The idea of creating a completly alternate universe from scratch. Not from a book or anything else was what blew people away. No one ever ever ever anywhere praised these movies for their writing, dialogue or acting, or directing for that matter. The first two were revolutionary, the third a very good conclusion wrap inside a bad movie. Just like Godfather 3. A fantastic finale to the whole wrap up inside a clunky and pretty poor movie.

Changes are coming? what changes? what are they? you know this?
Tell me.

stillakid
05-17-2005, 09:41 PM
Thats a fair question, but is it really particularly bothersome?
F**k yeah! Had the soldiers actually done their jobs, Qui Gon might still be alive! :eek: On second thought, he didn't belong in the story in the first place so it's better he goes. :D

But yeah, it is a major deal. The whole ram it down our throats in a forced dramatic way point was that George wanted a "dramatic" "reveal" of Maul to our heroes. Oooohhh, a double-bladed lightsaber... What are we going to do? :confused: Puhlease.... What a crock o' sh** that sequence was. Our heroes were making a beeline for the throne room when the doors open up. What would really happen in a war situation? Yeah, the guys with the guns would open up and cut the bad guy to shreds. There's NO WAY Maul would survive that onslaught. He'd cut and run if he didn't get blasted to pieces first. Then yeah, it would've made sense for our heroes to run after him alone and set up that dramatic end that we saw. What it wouldn't do would be that Padme and Co. wouldn't run off in the wrong direction necessitating lil' orphan Ani to hop into the ship, hit the autopilot and accidentally save everybody. See, Lucas's attempts at Rube Goldbergian scenarios are so fraught with nonsensical illogic that it should make every moviegoer cringe if not worse. What still amazes me after all these years is that some people still don't recognize the problems or have a problem with them if they do. I blame our schools. The dumbing down of America is evidenced by the way TPM and AOTC are cherished. It's sad really. :(



As for the Leia thing. That is not a logical explanation, that is the explanation of a person who is willing to say "nobody cares." Its absurd for her to knowingly lead the Empire to the Rebel Base. After Tarkin threatened her with the destruction of Alderaan, and tried to use the crazy interrogator floaty ball thing. (which by the way, was really stupid). After all of that. She s going to lead them right to it? Thats ridiculous. They could have flown near there and had someone pick them up. They could have had Han Solo fly to another planet. You said they had R2, but I remind you, they werent really confident that they could find a weakness even after they got the plans from R2. "I only hope a weakness can be found" So the idea that shed lead them to the Rebels door with the possibility that they might spend hours and hours looking at them, find nothing and then having to hurry up and back because the Deathstar has cleared the planet.
True, they might find nothing, but she was wiling to take that risk and err on the side of expediency. Again, I'm not the fictional character of Princess Leia, so I can't really say what her reasoning was, but the explanation that I came up with is not only plausible, it is entirely logical unlike Padme's moronic choice to "go the long way."


Now this doesnt really bother me, but I accept that its just the way it happened. I dont let it bother me. But if you are going to complain about the PT you have to hold the OT to the same standard and I dont think that you are.
I'm positive you don't think so ;) , but I do hold the OT up to the same standard. Actually, it is the other way around. I hold the PT up to the high standard set up by ANH, which is what established the ground rules for what a Star Wars film is supposed to be.



As for ROTJ. Blech. Harrison Ford is DREADFUL in that movie. HE is awful. Easily as bad as anything Ive seen in the PT. Mark Hamil is not very good in any of the movies. Id stack Im was going into Toshi station to buy some power converters up against any lame line from the PT.
"Yippee!"..."There's a storm a'comin' Ani" ..."What a drag"... "I'm building a racer, a PODracer"... "Nice to meet you!" ... "Are you an angel?" ....

Yeah, Lucas is a genuine Mamet and Jake Lloyd was frickin' Olivier. :rolleyes:


Keep in mind. I dont like the PT better than the OT. Not at all. But I do like it. I think you are asking for too much..
Asking the Prequels to be just as good as the OT if not better is asking too much? :confused:


What is/was great about Star Wars is the big picture. It was a technological masterpiece and it was a revolutionary in the world of "Blockbusters" Everyone has been trying to remake Star Wars ever since. The idea of creating a completly alternate universe from scratch. Not from a book or anything else was what blew people away. No one ever ever ever anywhere praised these movies for their writing, dialogue or acting, or directing for that matter.
I did. And still do. In fact, I think a lot of people still praise ESB and Kerschner for his work. So I think your assessment there is wrong.


The first two were revolutionary,
Well, ANH was. ESB was just a well-received sophomore effort. I wouldn't call much of it "revolutionary." ESB didn't really break a whole lot of new ground that ANH had in terms of story or special fx. Some things were improved on, but it wasn't "revolutionary." ANH was the one that broke new ground.


the third a very good conclusion wrap inside a bad movie.
Your opinion. On the contrary, ROTJ had parts, just like ESB, that were higher quality than ANH. But as a whole, ANH is far superior to either of them. ESB suffered from some distant "Canadien style" directing, which tends to be influenced by the documentary tradition. For evidence of this, revisit the Hoth battle sequence. ROTJ had some amazing sequences as well, mostly those after the Jabba half. For my money, the HOTH battle needs to be pumped up A LOT and the entire Jabba sequence should be cut to a third of what it is. Other than that, those films still outdo any of the Prequels in almost every way.



Changes are coming? what changes? what are they? you know this?
Tell me.
We'll all know for sure when the Super Nifty Star Wars 10.3 versions are released in a couple of years. :D But it is almost certain that there will be gratuitous shots of Bail Organa shoehorned into ANH just moments before he is obliterated into a million pieces. It will be changes on that magnitude, though relatively tiny, that are completely useless and will only serve to detract from an otherwise perfectly fine film.

2-1B
05-18-2005, 02:05 AM
Sure Leia was smart enough to know they were being tracked, thus the only explanation for the ease of their escape . . . but that doesn't explain why she got all moist and hugged Chewie, screaming "We did it!" RIGHT AFTER they were let go. :sur:

stillakid
05-18-2005, 10:19 AM
Sure Leia was smart enough to know they were being tracked, thus the only explanation for the ease of their escape . . . but that doesn't explain why she got all moist and hugged Chewie, screaming "We did it!" RIGHT AFTER they were let go. :sur:

He said moist. :crazed:

2-1B
05-18-2005, 01:25 PM
But seriously, I never really understood that. Maybe she got caught up in the moment but she sure was confident about it being a trap after the dogfight was over.

Any thoughts ?

stillakid
05-18-2005, 02:11 PM
But seriously, I never really understood that. Maybe she got caught up in the moment but she sure was confident about it being a trap after the dogfight was over.

Any thoughts ?

Well, kinda. I mean, they were running from Stormtroopers who were shooting at them, they watch the old man get sliced out of existence and some TIE Fighters almost immediately start chasing them. Certainly during that dogfight, there was no reason to suspect that anything unusual was up in light of everything they just dodged.

It was only after the fight that a smart girl like Leia would look at what just transpired and realize that Tarkin took it easy on them. Forget the dogfight...why wasn't the hangar bay full of Stormtroopers to begin with? In hindsight, one could see that it was a setup, but as the heroes were in the moment, those kinds of clues wouldn't be so evident. So yeah, Leia sorta "got caught up in the moment" and got "moist." :) But only afterwards, when she had time to think, did the plot become obvious. Sort of the way some of us view Star Wars movies. :p

2-1B
05-19-2005, 04:14 AM
Speaking of moist, she also went from insulting the mighty Chewbacca as a walking carpet to hugging him like it was the end of the world after they escaped. :crazed:

Oh wait, it WAS the end of the world . . . for Alderaan ! :sur:

:crazed:

evenflow
05-19-2005, 03:22 PM
Well it didnt seem that they knew the children survived. With Padme's death, it is possible for Vader and the Emperor to think the children died as well.

2-1B
05-20-2005, 12:52 AM
And Padme even asked Ani about the baby's future but he didn't know. :crazed:

Veers
05-21-2005, 12:24 PM
Only GL knows the answer to this.