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View Full Version : What would the Jedi do with Anikin if he wasn't trained under their wing?



scruffziller
05-14-2005, 10:09 AM
Can't seem to find any discussion on this.............
Even though the Jedi would refuse to train Anikin, they should still see him as a possible dangerous threat. The force is strong with him so he has potential to be dangerous without their influence or someone elses(and likely someone else too). The best course of action would have been to kill him but it is against the nature of the Jedi to do such a thing or they would lead themselves down the dark path.

Thoughts?????

JediTricks
05-15-2005, 07:59 PM
My thought is that it was a piece of bad writing and they just would have let him walk away because it seems like the TPM council may have been staffed by jerks, but they were extremely altruistic jerks (unless you considering hurting a 9-year-old slave boy's feelings... then they're less altruistic I suppose ;)).

"Put him back you will, reimplant him with his slave bomb, you must. On the barren planet you found him, the rest of his life must he spend."

scruffziller
05-16-2005, 12:11 PM
"Put him back you will, reimplant him with his slave bomb, you must. On the barren planet you found him, the rest of his life must he spend."

Was that a quote from the novel??

Or is that your own fabrication..?:D

trandoshan666
05-16-2005, 01:59 PM
My feeling was that they were just going to let him walk away and for whatever reason, they felt he would never go on to learn the ways of the force. That seems odd because at that point they had just learned of the new threat that was seemingly being posed by the Sith.

Devo
05-16-2005, 03:02 PM
Something I've wondered is - why are the jedi so thick? They think he's dangerous, they refuse to train him...then at the film's end, when Obi-wan insists that he will train him, Yoda just says 'alright'. OK great thinking wise jedi master - get all worried about this fearful young boy and what he could potentially become and leave his training to someone who only just became a jedi 'knight' himself. How stubborn and/or thick are the jedi? Surely once Obi-wan says he will defy the council Yoda's change of mind should have been along the lines of 'very well, Skywalker will be trained, but not by a recently graduated padawan'. Instead it seems his attitude must have been 'ok but he's your responsibility' - bad mistake. Read: bad writing error on Lucas' part.

JediTricks
05-16-2005, 03:55 PM
Was that a quote from the novel??

Or is that your own fabrication..?:D
Only from the mind of a maniac. ;)


Devo, you have a great point, the council just acquiesces on that point, no discussion, no more argument, just "Qui-Gon's dead, you're now a knight, and do whatever you want".

Devo
05-16-2005, 06:34 PM
Its even worse when you consider the AOTC deleted scene in which Obi wan speaks to Mace windu of his concerns about Anakin before taking off in the starfighter. Mace, one of the primary doubters about Anakin in TPM, simply says (not the exact quote but this is basically how it goes) "ah sure don't worry 'bout it, we'll see what happens, have faith, balance of the force etc etc".....what a curious turnaround. The jedi go from caution in the middle of TPM to 'what will be will be' by the end of that film and that then continues into AOTC (if memory serves the scene actually in the theatrical cut of AOTC is the same as the deleted scene only with Yoda in a floating chair and a different setting)

This would have been avoided had Obi Wan been a jedi master from the outset (or at least acquiring master status by the end of TPM). This way it wouldn't be so unbelievable that the council would allow him to train Anakin. The mistakes made in Anakins training would then solely be down to Obi-wan and not the entire Jedi council. And this would be appropriate given Obi wans admission in ROTJ 'I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda...I was wrong'.

sith_killer_99
05-16-2005, 10:59 PM
They think he's dangerous, they refuse to train him...then at the film's end, when Obi-wan insists that he will train him, Yoda just says 'alright'. OK great thinking wise jedi master - get all worried about this fearful young boy and what he could potentially become and leave his training to someone who only just became a jedi 'knight' himself. How stubborn and/or thick are the jedi? Surely once Obi-wan says he will defy the council Yoda's change of mind should have been along the lines of 'very well, Skywalker will be trained, but not by a recently graduated padawan'. Instead it seems his attitude must have been 'ok but he's your responsibility'

As I recall, it didn't happen quite like that.

Yoda - "Agree with your taking this boy as your Padawan, I do not!"

Obi-Wan - "I will train Anakin, against the Council's wishes if I must."

Yoda - "Agree with you the Council does. Your apprentice Skywalker will be."

I left out some dialogue to speed things up here. My point is, that after the battle, and what Anakin did, the Council agrees that Anakin should be trained by Obi-Wan. It was Yoda alone who disagreed with the Council's decision. Yoda tried to talk Obi-Wan out of it, but the bottom line was, Yoda got out voted by the Council.

The point is still valid about Anakin being trained. He was already a powerful force user, but still untrained he was a much smaller threat. In Yoda's mind it was better to raise him as a normal kid with a talent for fixing things, he might have grown up to be an engineer with powerful force sensative abilities, but untrained he would pose little threat to a Jedi Master. As it was Anakin used everything he had against Obi-Wan and we all know how that turns out.

I have another interesting question along the same lines. What happens to all the Padawan's who get rejected by the Jedi Order? The novels say they go off to careers in different areas, like the Agriculture Corps. But these are young Padawa's who are trained in the Jedi arts virtually from birth. You can't tell me they just go off and forget about having their dreams crushed, not after years of disciplined training.

JediTricks
05-17-2005, 01:51 AM
(if memory serves the scene actually in the theatrical cut of AOTC is the same as the deleted scene only with Yoda in a floating chair and a different setting)You are correct, Mace, who Anakin glowered at in TPM so fiercely, now is the one saying that Anakin will do jim dandy and is good to go, he disregards Obi-Wan's concerns and Yoda barely chimes in except to back up Mace and the council's misplaced faith in Anakin.

As for making Obi-Wan a master though, I think that should never happen, Obi-Wan is brash and headstrong for a Jedi, and once he gets lost with teaching Anakin, he turns to his own mentors only to find them too blinded by prophecy and bureaucracy to pay attention to the real problem, and Obi-Wan follows their lead because he has faith in them.



I have another interesting question along the same lines. What happens to all the Padawan's who get rejected by the Jedi Order? The novels say they go off to careers in different areas, like the Agriculture Corps. But these are young Padawa's who are trained in the Jedi arts virtually from birth. You can't tell me they just go off and forget about having their dreams crushed, not after years of disciplined training. I dunno if you're familiar with my concepts for a 7,8,9 trilogy, but in it are dark youth, angry and evil young men who have powers of the Force and some have lightsabers, but are neither Jedi nor Sith. It opens up a lot of doors, and I suppose that's what would happen to these young failed padawans you mention. Personally, it really bothers me that the post-OT stuff made Jedi apprentices so incredibly young, Yoda said of Luke that he was too old to begin the training in ESB, but in ESB Luke is like 21 years old, I would have found it much more believable to take on padawan learners when they hit their teens, when they started really forming who they were as individuals, that would have been more realistic and still kept the rejects as whole people rather than parentless semi-Jedi.

The 'Xir
05-17-2005, 12:05 PM
...you have a great point, the council just acquiesces on that point, no discussion, no more argument, just "Qui-Gon's dead, you're now a knight, and do whatever you want".

I don't think it's like that at all!

(I didn't read the other posts after this one I have quoted, so forgive me if I repeat what someone else might have stated already)
First: Remember that the Jedi's ability to use the force has been diminished. Palpatine has been plotting this for some time, and he's had to disguise himself even before the events of TPM! The Jedi haven't been aware of the Sith in a milennia according to Ki-Adi- Mundi, and might not recognize the disturbance they feel as a threat! Initially atleast, or not until Maul reveals himself against Qui-Gon in their duel on Tatooine! Who knows, maybe Palpatine disguises himself so well, they don't even notice it at all! --Blind we are. If creation of this clone army, we could not see.-- Yoda
Now, According to their own mandates, Anakin is too old to be trained, and I'd assume that they know that anyone who has force abilities that is left untrained just remains force sensitive and really can't do much beyond that with out proper training! Just like any skill! You may have a predisposition towards something but if you don't train inorder to hone your skills than you never get anywhere beyond that "Natural Ability"! And cannot be a danger, atleast not to anyone on a Universal scale!
Now at this time Ben is not on the council, Just like Qui-Gon isn't and Ben says,"if you would only follow the Code, you would be on the council". So his punishment is being kept off the council, but is never banned from the Jedi Order! So when Ben defies his masters and says that he'll take Anakin as his Padawan learner, against the councils wishes if he must, in order to fufill his dying masters wishes; he IS granted the rank of Knight, but only because of his accomplishments proven worthy of such a rank! He is not given Master and Master doesn't insure you a seat on the council! Then Yoda says that, he doesn't agree with him taking this boy as his padawan, and as a result of his defiance Ben doesn't get a seat on the council until the events of EpIII. However, we see Yoda pause, as if he's communning with the other council members through the force, and once he has the answer from the other members, only does he state, "Agree with you the council does, your apprentice young Skywalker we'll be" Now why do they agree to this? Probably because they know Ben's defiance isn't enough to kick him out of the order, and because they know he'll do it anyway, so they probably feel it's better to do it under the councils watching eye than to have him train this possibly dangerous boy completely on his own!
What they are really blind to though, is not knowing they are being manipulated by the Sith Lord, along with the the Senate and pretty much everyone else in the universe! So they use their abilities as best as they can to their knowing, to unravel the mystery of the Sith! Remember the Sith have been plotting this from every angle for decades, and spring it upon the Jedi who only have the here and now to try to figure out what and who the threat is, and to then mount a defense against it! They assume Anakin as strong as he is, could be an answer to the problem once they discover what that problem is! However, when Palptine discovers this boy at the end of TPM, he see's Anakin as a pawn and the final piece of his elaborate scheme to bring down the kingdom of the Jedi!

That's my understanding of the situation! Hope that lends some help in answering any questions you still may have! :)

CaptainSolo1138
05-17-2005, 12:21 PM
I would have found it much more believable to take on padawan learners when they hit their teens, when they started really forming who they were as individuals
IMO (after all the pointless-until-now psychology classes I've endured :D ), I think that training Padawan's before they hit their teens is the way to go. Not that kids are stupid, but they are much easier to shape and mold. As a teen, their egos are developing and they go into their "infallable" phase when they believe that they and they alone are right. Also, there's the whole "I'm indestructible, that couldn't possibly happen to me" phase that comes along with puberty. If you begin to train them before they experience these changes, they're more likely to ignore them or be less affected by them.

Back on topic, I think that the Council figured that if he wasn't trained at all the threat would be eliminated. After all, how can he use powers he doesn't know he has? Look at Leia in the OT. Appearantly, she's "strong with the force", yet since she never knew that, she never used it. Sure, she "heard" Luke when he was hanging out under Lando's crib, but she would've wrote that off to intuition since she didn't realize her force potential.

JediTricks
05-17-2005, 10:12 PM
Remember that the Jedi's ability to use the force has been diminished.We don't know that's the case when Obi-Wan is made a knight and allowed to take Anakin as his Padawan.


He is not given Master and Master doesn't insure you a seat on the council! I don't remember anybody suggesting it did.


Yoda says that, he doesn't agree with him taking this boy as his padawan, and as a result of his defiance Ben doesn't get a seat on the council until the events of EpIII. Um... what? Where did that come from? When has Ben being on the council ever had anything to do with... well, anything?



Not that kids are stupid, but they are much easier to shape and mold. That's true, but it's also what makes it creepy and fascist, it's the type of thing that gives rise to comments of cultism, and while the Holonet news EU site during Ep 2's build-up did actually touch on this a little, I still think it's too over-the-top for the Jedi. The Jedi


As a teen, their egos are developing and they go into their "infallable" phase when they believe that they and they alone are right. I was thinking a little earlier than that, pre-teen I guess it's called, 9 through 11 aged.


If you begin to train them before they experience these changes, they're more likely to ignore them or be less affected by them. Yeah, but they're also far less likely to be individuals, and ultimately I feel that being an individual is a crucial part of the Jedi order from everything we've seen of the Knights and Masters, but I don't think the Jedi-from-birth style of teaching would create individuals with strong enough character to be the way Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Yoda are.



Look at Leia in the OT. Appearantly, she's "strong with the force", yet since she never knew that, she never used it. This is something that sorta bothered me about TPM, "chosen one" or not, Anakin is being hinted at to the audience that, despite no training whatsoever, the boy is capable of rudamentary Force use already. This is accented by stuff that didn't make it to the film, but is in the script, so you could take that stuff as EU. But even in the film Qui-Gon is attributing Anakin's success at podracing to Jedi abilities, I know Leia was clever and smart and a crack shot, but she wasn't shown to be THAT much better than everybody else.

CaptainSolo1138
05-18-2005, 10:12 AM
Yeah, but they're also far less likely to be individuals, and ultimately I feel that being an individual is a crucial part of the Jedi order from everything we've seen of the Knights and Masters, but I don't think the Jedi-from-birth style of teaching would create individuals with strong enough character to be the way Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Yoda are.

But I don't think Jedi are necessarily supposed to be individuals. For example, in TPM Qui-Gon points out Obi-Wan's shortcomings to the council ("head strong, etc..."). According to your theory, if he had the ability to be a knight (which Qui-Gon believed) they would have deemed him such then, or at least had good reason to. But he had too many attributes and characteristics that were un-Jedi like so the council rejected Qui-Gon's proposal. I totally understand what you mean by being individuals, since there are many differences between between Luke and Mace for example. But those are personality differences. In terms of virtue, spirit, and attributes of that ilk, Jedi are discouraged from being individuals, so much so that if they fail to meet some sort of criteria they aren't accepted.

JediTricks
05-19-2005, 12:02 AM
I see what you mean, but Obi-Wan has always been our primary represenation of what a Jedi is, and Yoda our secondary, and no matter what the prequels say about being an individual - which you seem to have a point about - I can't see how that could have changed SO drastically without at least focusing on that very change. Even Qui-Gon Jinn is a unique individual and he's the FIRST Jedi we meet in the film, Obi-Wan's comment about him not following the code keeping him off the council isn't enough to explain why Qui-Gon is such the individual person he is, especially when you take into account that the council respects him highly and trusts him to be teach Padawans. Personality differences aren't just what you're born with, you acquire them over a lifetime of growing and learning, but if everybody is raised from near-birth by the sterile, sweet kindergarten environment of the Jedi learning system we've seen so far, they'd seem like a clone army.

As for Obi-Wan's attributes, the council didn't say they were un-Jedi-like, just that he was not yet ready, perhaps they are Jedi attributes but he had not shown his ability to keep them in check yet (though how would they really know except by trusting his own teacher?).

CaptainSolo1138
05-19-2005, 02:46 PM
Well, Anakin should have been a Master but they told him 'no'. Our arguments have both been proven wrong by RotS: It's actually a popularity contest. :D

JediTricks
05-20-2005, 04:37 AM
He's barely old enough to drink alcohol yet he expects to be a Master... yeesh. :p

MaquisWarrior
05-23-2005, 03:11 AM
Two words : CABIN BOY!!!!