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stillakid
05-16-2005, 02:09 PM
Anyone who has listened to the ROTS soundtrack by now has probably felt that grandious upsurge of riveting...um, er, grandiosity when track 15 (A New Hope and End Credits) plays.

It's a rousing little ditty, I agree. But what intrigues me most is the choice to essentially recycle the Throne Room anthem from ANH in the same way that it was infused into the end credits for ROTJ, Episode VI. Why is this fascinating? Because it means that if a hypothetical brand new audience member born in June 2005 one day sits down to watch the saga in Episode order, that end credit music cue will have absolutely no meaning whatsoever. Generally, when a composer revisits a cue like that it is supposed to indicate to the audience a kind of "revisiting" of some previous occurrence. So, for instance, when we get to the end of ROTJ and that anthem slides in at the very final moments, our collective memories flash back to the victory at Yavin IV and the victory there. But if an audience member watches these in Episode order and hears that anthem drummed up (repeatedly in the ROTS soundtrack!), what on earth is being "recalled"? :confused: Well, obviously, from where I'm sitting, it appears that John Williams is recalling the original victory "feeling" we got from the Throne Room. But if we are watching these in Episode order, that is obviously impossible. We can't recall that which hasn't happened yet.

So what can we conclude about this? That for all the talk from Lucas that these are meant to be seen in Episode order, it is a lie. If the soundtrack is officially sanctioned by Lucas, and we have every reason to believe that it is, then he has approved the use of the music cue from an Episode which hasn't happened yet in story time. The only way for an audience to truly appreciate the music cue in ROTS (Track 15) is to watch the movies in order of production.

So George lied again. Well, either that or George f'd up again. I suppose you can decide what you want to believe. Either way, there's no excuse.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
05-16-2005, 07:49 PM
George doesn't write the music, John Williams does. Anyway, while I do believe that "Battle of the Heroes" should've been in the "End Credits" theme, this way is great too. (I say this not having listened to the soundtrack, but I already know about it.)

It is my belief that this is meant to foreshadow (with about as much subtlety as a train wreck) the events of ANH. I think it's a pretty cool way to tie the two trilogies together.

However, I can also understand what you are saying. I think it works both ways.

George, when asked this question at both CIII and in this week's EW said something to the effect of, "You can watch it in whatever order you want. That's the great thing about this medium." I think it was a nice way to say "I don't give a s*** how you watch the damn movies." Stilla, you can watch them in whichever way you want to, no matter what anyone says.

Anyway, and feel free to move these comments into another thread if needed, but I can see pros and cons to seeing the movies both ways.

THE CASE FOR SEEING THE OT FIRST:
*The surprise of Vader's identity
*The surprise of Luke's sister
*Not knowing who Yoda is
*Skipping the slow exposition

THE CASE FOR SEEING THE PT FIRST:
*Sympathizing with Darth Vader more (most of this comes from ROTS, from what I've read)
*Not knowing what will happen to the characters
*Not knowing about Sidious's identity
*Seeing the formation of the Empire before you see it in full effect

Granted, anyone who doesn't know who Vader, Yoda, and Sidious are might be a little bit retarded, but still . . .

stillakid
05-16-2005, 07:57 PM
George doesn't write the music, John Williams does. :sur: Um, I don't believe I suggested anything different than that...



Granted, anyone who doesn't know who Vader, Yoda, and Sidious are might be a little bit retarded, but still . . .
Yeah, TODAY. But that's not the point. For the shortsighted instant gratification crowd that permeates society, they just want their gratuitous kicks right now with little regard to what should be technically "correct." Meaning, an episode I or II or III should never ever give away any secrets or surprises that a later episode in the story will cleverly and dramatically reveal. It's like telling the punchline to the joke first then wondering why nobody laughs when you spring it on 'em later. Audiences today of course know all the cool secrets, but George is betraying the stylistic form in which you wouldn't crap all over your careful work that occurs later in the storyline for the primary purpose of giving "fans what they want to see" no matter what.

But George previously stated that these could work in episode order and the music cue is an indication that he gave up on that concept. I mean, they don't really work anyway, what with the f'd up continuity and all, but that's another story. :ermm:

2-1B
05-17-2005, 03:17 AM
Anybody who sits down to watch Star Wars Episode I for the first time 30 years from now probably won't even bother to watch Episode 2, let alone Episode 3.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
05-17-2005, 06:38 PM
Um, I don't believe I suggested anything different than that...

And yet you continue to say that the music is all Lucas's fault. I mean, he has to give his final word on the music (I assume, anyway), but it's really up to John Williams to decide what goes in as far as the score goes.

As far as the identities of the characters and whatnot, several of them are now dramatic ironies, in the sense that we know what's going on, but the characters do not. If someone watches the OT first, they'd say, "Who's that little green guy?" But if they saw the PT first, in ESB, they'd be excited that we get to see Yoda again. You see what I mean? IMO, it works both ways.

I believe that the End Credits arrangement for ROTS was also meant to instill a feeling of hope; that since even though it feels like there's no hope, there's a new one that's just around the corner.

And if you don't want to see the PT before the OT, then don't! Nobody gives a crap how you do it! Lucas was just offering a suggestion, but even he said that he doesn't really care how you watch it.

stillakid
05-17-2005, 08:16 PM
And yet you continue to say that the music is all Lucas's fault. I mean, he has to give his final word on the music (I assume, anyway), but it's really up to John Williams to decide what goes in as far as the score goes.
Uh, no, not really. That's what being the director is all about. While others actually do the work, the director is the guy who makes the final decisions and signs off on them. If it's in there, then Lucas has either requested it or approved it.


As far as the identities of the characters and whatnot, several of them are now dramatic ironies, in the sense that we know what's going on, but the characters do not. If someone watches the OT first, they'd say, "Who's that little green guy?" But if they saw the PT first, in ESB, they'd be excited that we get to see Yoda again. You see what I mean? IMO, it works both ways.
You conveniently brought up the ONLY instance where keeping the dramatic reveal of a character in the OT would have been nearly impossible. Just about every other secret, surprise, irony, and dramatic element has been watered down by the Prequels which blow the saga's wad too soon in linear time.


I believe that the End Credits arrangement for ROTS was also meant to instill a feeling of hope; that since even though it feels like there's no hope, there's a new one that's just around the corner.I appreciate what you're getting at, but that's stretching it a bit relative to how the Ceremony music actually sounds. That isn't "hopeful" music. It's "victory" music. Something like Yoda's Theme or Leia's Theme would be more suitable to pull that off, I would think.


And if you don't want to see the PT before the OT, then don't! Nobody gives a crap how you do it! Lucas was just offering a suggestion, but even he said that he doesn't really care how you watch it. It's not about me. Or you, or any one person. It's about maintaining the artistic integrity of the work itself. Lucas decided to crap all over what was a brilliant saga by selling out to the slobbering fanboys who only wanted (supposedly) to see Darth Vader running around killing people. That and more Fett. And fart jokes apparently were on the list too.
I'll watch it the way I choose. You'll watch it the way you choose. Every individual has the choice to decide for themselves in which order to watch them. But those choices have no bearing whatsoever on the utter failure of the Prequels to live up to the responsibility they had to continue to build on the solid foundation that was Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi. Methinks the Prequels have more to do with the Holiday Special. :crazed:

Mr. JabbaJohnL
05-18-2005, 11:50 AM
Regardless of the other "surprises" and everything in the OT being shown in the PT, you have to remember that you're talking about the music that plays DURING THE CREDITS. Most people don't watch the credits or sit around and leave them on to only listen to the music. I do for Star Wars movies, but it's very rare that I do it for other movies. Most people won't even ever hear this arrangement. It's not that big of a deal.

CaptainSolo1138
05-18-2005, 12:03 PM
It's not about me. Or you, or any one person. It's about maintaining the artistic integrity of the work itself. Lucas decided to crap all over what was a brilliant saga by selling out to the slobbering fanboys who only wanted (supposedly) to see Darth Vader running around killing people. That and more Fett. And fart jokes apparently were on the list too.
I'll watch it the way I choose. You'll watch it the way you choose. Every individual has the choice to decide for themselves in which order to watch them. But those choices have no bearing whatsoever on the utter failure of the Prequels to live up to the responsibility they had to continue to build on the solid foundation that was Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi. Methinks the Prequels have more to do with the Holiday Special. :crazed:
Did you just say "artistic integrity" and "prequel" in the same paragraph? :crazed:

2-1B
05-18-2005, 02:18 PM
Yeah, the last two movies sucked so why bother with integrity anymore ? :crazed:

stillakid claims that Lucas knows he f'ed up with prequels, so why take him to task for further damaging the integrity of an already ruined venture ? :p

stillakid
05-18-2005, 03:21 PM
Did you just say "artistic integrity" and "prequel" in the same paragraph? :crazed:

LOL! Yeah, I suppose that train left the station a long time ago, didn't it?




Yeah, the last two movies sucked so why bother with integrity anymore ?

stillakid claims that Lucas knows he f'ed up with prequels, so why take him to task for further damaging the integrity of an already ruined venture ?
Did I say that I "know" that? :sur: :confused: Maybe I did, but I don't recall it. Hmm....

Oh yeah, it's coming back to me. In the DVD thing he mentioned that "you can screw this stuff up" or something to that effect. I suppose my question then would be, why compound it? Just to see how bad it could possibly get? I would think that a rational person would head toward the light instead of intentionally driving toward the brick wall. But I suppose billionaires can do that. But he's not crazy. Poor people are crazy. He's eccentric! :crazed:

bigbarada
05-18-2005, 04:12 PM
Unless Lucas plans to edit out the Luke/Leia kissing scene in ESB then I will never believe that these films are intended to be seen 1-6.

In fact, that scene from ESB is the best argument that Lucas didn't really have this all planned out from the very beginning, the way he claims.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
05-18-2005, 08:58 PM
Unless Lucas plans to edit out the Luke/Leia kissing scene in ESB then I will never believe that these films are intended to be seen 1-6.

In fact, that scene from ESB is the best argument that Lucas didn't really have this all planned out from the very beginning, the way he claims.
Then, riddle me this: Who was Yoda talking about when he said "No . . . there is another" in the very same movie that Leia kisses Luke?

stillakid
05-18-2005, 11:55 PM
Then, riddle me this: Who was Yoda talking about when he said "No . . . there is another" in the very same movie that Leia kisses Luke?

Why, Leia of course. Who else would it be? I don't get and have never understood the animosity toward the Luke/Leia relationship. And I get raked over the coals for nitpicking. :rolleyes:

2-1B
05-19-2005, 05:06 AM
Did I say that I "know" that? :sur: :confused: Maybe I did, but I don't recall it. Hmm....

Oh yeah, it's coming back to me. In the DVD thing he mentioned that "you can screw this stuff up" or something to that effect.

No way, there's no way that the quote you cite from the DVD extras is an admission of guilt from Lucas that he messed it up. Given the insane amount of control they have at "The Ranch" I can't believe for a second that they would let that go if it was what he meant.

Rather, I believe that statement was in regard to More American Grafitti . . . I think.

stillakid
05-19-2005, 09:36 AM
No way, there's no way that the quote you cite from the DVD extras is an admission of guilt from Lucas that he messed it up. Given the insane amount of control they have at "The Ranch" I can't believe for a second that they would let that go if it was what he meant.

Rather, I believe that statement was in regard to More American Grafitti . . . I think.
It was probably in regard to both. And you're right, every second of these things has to go through an approval process so it has to raise eyebrows when we hear something like that included, particularly since that came out after the bashing TPM got from fans. Though he doesn't spell it out, it sure appears as though he is quite aware that his "jazz riffs" didn't cut the mustard and he was admitting that he f'd up. And as you point out, history repeated itself. You'd think he'd learn from the past.

And you know, this is why I have been a long-time advocate of "the rules" when it comes to "art" like this. There's a reason we have writing "rules" and filmmaking "guidelines." Because they work. No doubt, it is refreshing to see innovation, but it usually happens within the framework of what has been done previously. A notable exception, for one, was A THIN BLUE LINE, where Errol Morris took the standard documentary style and pushed it to the limits. But he took a chance and in this case, it worked. Lucas essentially has chosen to spend time in his features to make the equivalent of "fan films" where a "fun" aspect of the universe is played with for a few minutes. The Podrace is a great example. The fight with Maul is another. Moments that in and of themselves are interesting and a lot of fun to watch, but without solid story or logic to tie them together, the 2 hour feature falls apart.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
05-19-2005, 11:25 AM
Why, Leia of course. Who else would it be? I don't get and have never understood the animosity toward the Luke/Leia relationship. And I get raked over the coals for nitpicking. :rolleyes:
No crap, I know it was Leia, but it seemed like BigBarada didn't.

bigbarada
05-19-2005, 02:28 PM
Then, riddle me this: Who was Yoda talking about when he said "No . . . there is another" in the very same movie that Leia kisses Luke?

He was talking about the main character from the third trilogy which was supposed to run concurrently alongside the OT. If you listen to the commentary on the DVDs, Lucas will admit that the Luke/Leia brother/sister relationship was not in the original script. And watch the "Forbidden Love" trailer for ANH on the extra DVD, that will forever erase any doubt that Luke and Leia weren't brother and sister until ROTJ.

Imperial Monarche
05-20-2005, 12:08 AM
Since this thread has shifted gears, I'll address that first. I agree with stilla that there is no reason why people should think that Lucas didn't have the Luke/Leia twin thing set down at least in ESB because of the quote from Yoda. People that think that if Lucas had intended them to be brother and sister in the original script or ESB that there would have been no romantic involvement between them is just a bunch of bull. It's more natural the way that it happened because in ANH, Luke meets Leia, who he has no idea is his sister, and see's a pretty girl, which is the most natural thing to do. Then, he starts to like her which is also very natural. On top of that, Leia finds Luke handsome, so there might be some kind of crush on her part too, which is natural. They have no idea they are related, folks. I've known people that have liked someone they know, then find out they are like first cousins. Plus, you also have to remember, there was never any real indication that Leia liked Luke accept for maybe the kiss before they swing across the chasm. The kiss in ESB is purely to get Han jealous because he is who Leia really favors.

Now, onto the soundtrack part and watching the episodes in order. When I first heard the soundtrack, I found it odd (but cool) to hear the "Throne Room" in the end credits. However, after seeing the film and sitting through the credits, the "Throne Room" section was not played so therefore, I think that section in the end credits was just for the soundtrack and not ever meant to play in the movie because it wouldn't make much sense. This is just another thing for stillakid to pick apart and gripe about because he always has something, or a hundred things to complain about. But...it makes for good conversation, so keep up the good work.

stillakid
05-20-2005, 03:01 AM
Now, onto the soundtrack part and watching the episodes in order. When I first heard the soundtrack, I found it odd (but cool) to hear the "Throne Room" in the end credits. However, after seeing the film and sitting through the credits, the "Throne Room" section was not played so therefore, I think that section in the end credits was just for the soundtrack and not ever meant to play in the movie because it wouldn't make much sense. This is just another thing for stillakid to pick apart and gripe about because he always has something, or a hundred things to complain about. But...it makes for good conversation, so keep up the good work.

Thanks, man. I'll do what I can. :D

But while the Throne Room music isn't played in the film in the same way that it is on the soundtrack, the cue is there at the very end just the way it is in ROTJ. So just like many other instances throughout the Prequels, it's playing on an "in joke" that hasn't really happened yet in story time.

In terms of "griping," I think it's sad how people just let the "little" things go so easily. First this, then something more important, like, say, governmental responsibility etc. My son's baseball coach said it best to the kids when he told them, "You play like you practice and you practice like you play." I personally find that paying attention to detail in everything is a priority while it's clear that many people would rather not challenge themselves or others to achieve greatness. Unfortunately, for too many people, mediocrity is enough. So you tell me, exactly what is wrong with "griping" when it is greatness that should be the goal?

Perhaps I ask too much of others. :ermm: