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stillakid
05-17-2005, 10:45 AM
Lucas: "There Are Two Kinds of 'Star Wars' Fans"
Posted by JediTricks on May 16, 05.



According to Lucas, it's Star Wars fans who run the media and that's why people dislike the first 2 prequels.

Legendary director George Lucas hit out at critics of his first two Star Wars prequels yesterday - just hours before third prequel Revenge Of The Sith premiered at the Cannes Film Festival. The legendary filmmaker insisted there are plenty of fans who like the first two prequels, The Phantom Menace and Attack Of The Clones, but that most of them are under the age of 25. He added that most people who dislike the two films tend to be fanatics of the original trilogy, released between 1977 and 1983. Speaking at a press conference at the French event, Lucas said, "The older ones (fans) are loyal to the first three films I made, and they are the ones in control of the media. The films that these people don't like - which are the first two prequels - are fanatically adored by the under 25s. They are always at each others throats about it."

source: IMDB.com

Geesh, it couldn't be because he wrote two crappy stories now, would it? :rolleyes: What a f'ing cop out and an utter insult to his long time fanbase. He's implying that "we" are just lashing out because the I and II aren't IV, V, and VI. Not only does that argument make no logical sense, but it's moronic to even consider it.

Besides, I know PLENTY of kids under 25 and not a one of them could be described as fanatical. Sure, there's some interest, but Pokemon and Harry Potter still rule as their primary multi-media hobbies. Star Wars runs a distant third. Who's telling Lucas this stuff?

Beast
05-17-2005, 11:59 AM
Lucas has a valid point. One myself and others have championed from the beginning, we're older and more jaded. We can't see the new films with the sample simple standpoint of innocence we had when we saw the OT. I for one enjoy the prequels just as much as I do the OT. In fact, depending on mood I often prefer the stories of the prequels. I don't see it as an insult at all to the long time fanbase. Just his interpretation of the facts as he sees them. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that it's not just as true and valid as yours. As for judging the prequels crap, that is likewise your opinion. Besides, considering the source is IMDB.Com I would take the story with a grain of salt.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

JON9000
05-17-2005, 12:52 PM
I definitely would've liked Episode I more if I had been under 10 when I first saw it. Likewise, I realize I would not be so into SW in general had I been over twenty when the OT came out. SW is not just the movies for me, but the entire merchandising blitz that left a huge impression on my childhood.

I think ROTS will be more geared toward the adult fanbase, from what I hear.

BTW, my girlfriend's favorite (or the one she finds least tiresome :eek: ) is TPM. She thinks Jar Jar is funny and the kid is cute. She has always been a sucker for physical comedy. Naturally, I don't agree, but people like what they like!

2-1B
05-17-2005, 12:53 PM
It's an accurate report, I just read the same thing last night in the Entertainment Weekly cover story for Revenge of the Sith.

I am almost 27 and I enjoy all 5 films. I enjoy TPM almost as much as the OT and I enjoy AOTC as much as the OT. For me it's not an either/or thing.

*shrug*

megaprime33
05-17-2005, 01:48 PM
Lucas catered episode 1 more to children anyway. Obviously children will enjoy it more than any other age group. Which is why people like me, who are in their mid-20s and have loved star wars since they were 4 were upset to see dialog catered to kids. I like episode 1 but not as much as I like AOTC and certainly not as much as ROTS. I haven't even seen ROTS yet and I already know I like it better of the 3. Why? Because it caters to my age group.

2-1B
05-17-2005, 01:52 PM
All this talk about catering is making me hungry. I think I'll log off and get some lunch.

stillakid
05-17-2005, 02:34 PM
Lucas has a valid point.
No, he doesn't. Why can I say that with such authority? Because...


Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that it's not just as true and valid as yours.

Lucas's "opinion" is centered around him making a conclusion about why somebody like me has a problem with the Prequels. He doesn't know me at all and he's making a gross assumption that the only reason that an older person wouldn't enjoy the Prequels is because we aren't 5 anymore. So not only is he insulting the living crap out of those of us who understand the concept of literary comprehension, but he's also indicting his own work as being so superficial that only a young dumb kid could enjoy it. Well, maybe that second part is accurate. :sur:

Ryno
05-17-2005, 02:59 PM
Lucas has said before that he had a story to tell and Episode 1 with Anakin being that young was how it had to be and thus the older generation wasn't going to like it. What I don't get though is why he seemed to intentionally aim it at kids. Did he really think that poop and fart jokes were that funny or had any place in the SW universe? I was 19 when TPM came out and when it was over I thought it was the best movie ever. Then I sat through it again about 3 hours later and I realized just how awful it was. The dialogue seems so weak compared to the OT and is it me or do the creatures (the non CG ones) just look so fake? The only really good thing about that movie is the final duel.

On the other hand, I enjoyed AOTC and I think it's almost as good as ROTJ; which is obviously the weakest of the OT. I think it was a good setup for ROTS.

I personally just think that Lucas got so caught up in technology and the new things he could do, that he forgot about putting heart into the movies. He's got a great cast, I think all the major players are wonderful for their parts, but he isn't giving them much to go on.

Oh well, it's GL's galaxy and we're just living in it!:classic:

stillakid
05-17-2005, 03:23 PM
Lucas has said before that he had a story to tell and Episode 1 with Anakin being that young was how it had to be and thus the older generation wasn't going to like it.

You know, he did say something like that years ago in a Playboy interview (around 1983 I think). But what he said was that the earlier episodes would be more political in nature...Machevellian in tone...these movies would be decidely less action oriented focusing more on the characters and events leading to the downfall of the Republic and that audiences probably wouldn't like them as much as IV, V, and VI. Not a mention of being so focused on Anakin or fart jokes, as I recall.

Well, he got one thing right. Audiences don't like the Prequels as much. The only problem is, he's mightly confused about why. But I suppose when you're a billionaire, hiding behind the wall of denial is okay. Had he actually given us what he promised via the interview and via the established continuity of the OT, then we'd all be jumping for joy with Prequel viewing parties leading up to the premiere of ROTS. But I haven't seen any outpouring of requests for the opportunity to sit in a dark theater for 6 hours of I and II. But I suppose that's the media's fault. :rolleyes:

JON9000
05-17-2005, 04:13 PM
You know, he did say something like that years ago in a Playboy interview (around 1983 I think).
Weren't you a little young to be reading Playboy in 1983? ;)

bigbarada
05-17-2005, 05:40 PM
I can understand his point about fans of the OT always prefering the OT; but he is oversimplifying the issue. While I do believe that the original trilogy is the best of the two, I don't consider it to be the greatest film trilogy of all time. For me, that honor goes to Lord of the Rings, three films that came out while I was 28-30 years old. So his assertion that I only prefer the OT because I grew up with it is inaccurate. I know what good storytelling consists of and nostalgia doesn't factor into it.

As a kid, I thought ROTJ was the greatest movie ever made and I loved the Ewok TV specials. Now I can see that ROTJ's story is weak compared to ANH and ESB, but that doesn't change the affection I feel for ROTJ. I guess I can make the distinction between my favorite SW movie (ROTJ) and the best SW movie (ANH).

Now, I could see George's point if I said that The Battle for Endor was better than Ep1. :D

Although I'd take Ewoks over Gungans anyday. :cool:

TheDarthVader
05-17-2005, 05:51 PM
I agree with Jar Jar and Caesar. I enjoy all five films. I do not have anything against the prequel trilogy. It is just as good as the OT.

B.
TDV

Monstermile
05-17-2005, 07:35 PM
Most of us who saw the OT saw it through the eyes of a child. And the movies had an effect on us. Obviously or we wouldn't still be obsessed with them. It was impossible for us to see TPM and AOTC through those same eyes. Naturally those movies wouldn't have the same effect as the OT did on us. I was so disappointed when I saw TPM for the first time. I think I was expecting so much more. To be blown away like I was in 1977. But after I sat back and realized that there is no way these movies could be watched by me the same way the OT was, I started enjoying it more. I actually ended up seeing TPM in the theaters around 7 times total. AOTC I really enjoyed the first time and saw it 4 more times. I love all of the movies and I am sure I will feel the same way about the ROTS. Just now I get to see my kids enjoy them in the way I enjoyed the OT when I was their age.

Dark Helmet
05-17-2005, 07:57 PM
I think ROTS will be more geared toward the adult fanbase, from what I hear.


Having grown up with the OT, I believe ROTS is being marketed towards the 35+ demographic. If you look at where the advertising began for ROTS months ago, it was in the theaters as a preview. It was shown before the movie "Robots" and "The Incredibles". Now, I friend of mine (my age) has 2 girls ages 4 and 6. They had no clue as to the significance of " Lord Vader..Yes master...rise"!!! This last generation is not the Target Market for ROTS. It is for the parents who take their children to these cartoons. He even took a 13 who had zero clue what SW was and couldn't see the significance of the Vader/Palpatine conversation. They did not even care. Therefore, the end result is in fact that the OT fans (parents now-some) are the obviously the Target market and since we WILL pay, the boxoffice number receipts will be enormous. Thoughts anyone?

Ji'dai
05-17-2005, 09:07 PM
Lucas and his politics of division!

I agree with bigbarada, the superior trilogy of late was Lord of the Rings. I still don't rate it as highly as the OT but it easily surpasses the Prequel Trilogy, even though LOTR is an adaptive work.

As part of my SW marathon this week in preparation for ROTS, I watched TPM for the first time in four years yesterday. I was looking forward to revisiting the film, I thought that after such a long time I could view it objectively again with a fresh outlook. But unfortunately I was still disappointed with it and ultimately left feeling unfulfilled once again.

JediTricks
05-17-2005, 09:44 PM
As a kid, I thought ROTJ was the greatest movie ever made and I loved the Ewok TV specials. Now I can see that ROTJ's story is weak compared to ANH and ESB, but that doesn't change the affection I feel for ROTJ. I guess I can make the distinction between my favorite SW movie (ROTJ) and the best SW movie (ANH).When I was a kid, I thought ROTJ was the best thing since sliced bread even though I thought the Ewoks were dumb, a few years later the film lost its luster for me, I found that it dragged in the middle, borrowed too heavily from ANH, and tried too hard to be cute, I still liked it but it became my least-favorite... ironically, I have softened to the Ewoks a little in that time.

I think any time Lucas or anybody else makes the claim that "the prequels are loved by the younger folk, that's why the older folk don't get it", the point comes off more as an excuse by those people for why Eps 1 and 2 are sub-quality films, basically it's saying "kids are easily enticed by flash over substance". Here's the thing, the OT is so beloved by the general moviegoing world because the films have flash AND substance, as well as heart, philosophy, and magic... care was put into the saga then so that each has its own levels (less care for ROTJ by a wider margin unfortunately).

What I really didn't like was Lucas's claim that "the media" is out to hate his prequels simply because they're "too old", it's a comment that stems from being blind to the possibility that people ARE actually individuals, it may as well be any reason, "the media is run by Jews", "the media is run by liberals", it's all the same poorly-thought-out comment that smacks of blaming others for one's own mistakes.


Perhaps instead of blaming the dedication of over-25 viewers or a media bias, Lucas should look at his own words. Thrawn put up an editorial (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/news?m=show&id=31432) about this, he mentions these comments from George Lucas himself in this week's Entertainment Weekly, here's what Lucas had to say about Episode I:

“I know I’m going to need to use Hamburger Helper to get it to two hours.”

And the prequels in general:

“60% of the prequel plot takes place in E3. (So Eps 1+2 are) jazz riffs…things I enjoy…just doodle around a lot.”

Does that sound like either Ep 1 or 2 was a whole movie to any of you? It doesn't sound like Lucas thought of them that way to me.

Darth Kirk
05-17-2005, 11:57 PM
I fourth (second) what Jar Jar, Caesar, and TheDarthVader said, I enjoy the PT just as much as the OT.. And talking about the superiority of any franchise, lets just say that that will always be a matter of opinion and taste.. To me the Star wars films are just superior to any franchise that has been released thus far. :)

2-1B
05-18-2005, 02:58 AM
Why did Thrawn bother to even do that editorial ? He starts by saying that he left years ago and states his reasons, his discontents, which is fine :) . . . but why come back ? To say "I told you so" ? :confused:

Sour grapes. :p

I prefer ROTJ To ANH . . . shoot me. :Pirate:

bigbarada
05-18-2005, 01:06 PM
When I was a kid, I thought ROTJ was the best thing since sliced bread even though I thought the Ewoks were dumb, a few years later the film lost its luster for me, I found that it dragged in the middle, borrowed too heavily from ANH, and tried too hard to be cute, I still liked it but it became my least-favorite... ironically, I have softened to the Ewoks a little in that time.

I think any time Lucas or anybody else makes the claim that "the prequels are loved by the younger folk, that's why the older folk don't get it", the point comes off more as an excuse by those people for why Eps 1 and 2 are sub-quality films, basically it's saying "kids are easily enticed by flash over substance". Here's the thing, the OT is so beloved by the general moviegoing world because the films have flash AND substance, as well as heart, philosophy, and magic... care was put into the saga then so that each has its own levels (less care for ROTJ by a wider margin unfortunately).

What I really didn't like was Lucas's claim that "the media" is out to hate his prequels simply because they're "too old", it's a comment that stems from being blind to the possibility that people ARE actually individuals, it may as well be any reason, "the media is run by Jews", "the media is run by liberals", it's all the same poorly-thought-out comment that smacks of blaming others for one's own mistakes.


Perhaps instead of blaming the dedication of over-25 viewers or a media bias, Lucas should look at his own words. Thrawn put up an editorial (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/news?m=show&id=31432) about this, he mentions these comments from George Lucas himself in this week's Entertainment Weekly, here's what Lucas had to say about Episode I:

“I know I’m going to need to use Hamburger Helper to get it to two hours.”

And the prequels in general:

“60% of the prequel plot takes place in E3. (So Eps 1+2 are) jazz riffs…things I enjoy…just doodle around a lot.”

Does that sound like either Ep 1 or 2 was a whole movie to any of you? It doesn't sound like Lucas thought of them that way to me.

I seem to remember reading an article around 1994-95 (when Lucas first announced work on the prequels and before the POTF2 line was released) in which he stated that the prequels would be of a completely different storytelling style and fans of the original films would undoubtedly not like them.

So, did Lucas predict the future or just create an "escape hatch" for himself to excuse sloppy writing?

It's clear from watching Ep1 and 2 that there wasn't enough story to fill four hours, so that's why we get a 13-minute podrace and the drawn out, boring car chase through Coruscant.

Only about 5 minutes of Ep1 was necessary for the grand storyline and more than 2/3rds of Ep2 could have been removed without affecting the plot. So that means a major part of the prequels, thus far, have been special effects experiments and eye candy. This means that, unfortunately, these films will most likely become dated and irrelevant very quickly.

Of course, many of these criticisms could be leveled at the ROTJ as well (still my favorite movie of the series). However, the difference being that Lucas waited until audiences got to know and love the characters before wasting screen time and "doodling around."

Even though I can indentify all of the shortcomings of these movies, I can still enjoy watching them (with the possible exception of Ep2). I believe that speaks more to "true fandom" than to blindly ignore the faults of the film and insult anyone who disagrees with you.

Darth Kirk
05-18-2005, 01:25 PM
'It's clear from watching Ep1 and 2 that there wasn't enough story to fill four hours, so that's why we get a 13-minute podrace and the drawn out, boring car chase through Coruscant.'

Bigbarada some fo us do not feel that the 13 minute pod race was long enough, nor did I think the car chase through Coruscant was drawn out and boring.. It is interesting the means in which we try and understand how Lucas got to where he wanted with this story.. Some will always think its crap, and others will always find them exhilirating.. I do not feel though that 'these films will most likely become dated and irrelevant very quickly'.. To you probably, but definately not to others.. That conclusion is purely subjective. :rolleyes:

bigbarada
05-18-2005, 01:35 PM
That conclusion is purly subjective. :rolleyes:

Twenty years from now we'll see how "subjective" it is.

You have to ask yourself, if not for Ep3 would anyone even be talking about Ep1 or 2 right now?

2-1B
05-18-2005, 02:08 PM
Of course they would, gotta have something to complain about, no ? lol

Beast
05-18-2005, 02:18 PM
I prefer ROTJ To ANH . . . shoot me. :Pirate:
I prefer all of the movies to ANH. I can barely watch ANH anymore, without feeling restless or falling asleep. That doesn't happen with the other films. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
05-18-2005, 03:02 PM
'It's clear from watching Ep1 and 2 that there wasn't enough story to fill four hours, so that's why we get a 13-minute podrace and the drawn out, boring car chase through Coruscant.'

Bigbarada some fo us do not feel that the 13 minute pod race was long enough, nor did I think the car chase through Coruscant was drawn out and boring.. It is interesting the means in which we try and understand how Lucas got to where he wanted with this story.. Some will always think its crap, and others will always find them exhilirating.. I do not feel though that 'these films will most likely become dated and irrelevant very quickly'.. To you probably, but definately not to others.. That conclusion is purely subjective. :rolleyes:





I prefer all of the movies to ANH. I can barely watch ANH anymore, without feeling restless or falling asleep. That doesn't happen with the other films.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

This sounds like the effects upon the video game generation. No attention span and little regard for actual plot or story. Just spew out the action and eye-candy as fast as possible to counteract the effects of the Ritulan. :crazed:

JediTricks
05-18-2005, 11:54 PM
I fourth (second) what Jar Jar, Caesar, and TheDarthVader said, I enjoy the PT just as much as the OT.. Ok, but that doesn't really jive with Lucas's theory which is very much "only one OR the other, dependent on age". :p



Why did Thrawn bother to even do that editorial ? He starts by saying that he left years ago and states his reasons, his discontents, which is fine :) . . . but why come back ? To say "I told you so" ? :confused:

Sour grapes. :p Well, look at the reasons he gave for leaving the site, and look at how he had been before that, after TPM's initial glow wore off he always strongly contended that both prequels were sub-quality films and was often attacked for it. Now he reads that Lucas himself is saying that they're not whole films and it seems like an explanation, one that a lot of people had claimed wasn't true until it came directly from the horse's mouth. I think it's a little bit of public vindication for him, those who said he was VERY wrong and should leave and not be allowed to express his opinions didn't have as much ground to stand on as they thought they did.

I suppose I feel similarly, Lucas himself admits that the first 2 prequels are mostly empty of story and needed to be juiced to get them into theaters, I've always felt Ep 2 was a fairly empty film and I've had heated discussions about that with people who thought I was simply being "a hater".


BB, I think that article was '96/'97, right before the SEs came out, not '94/'95. As for your "escape hatch" theory, it's an interesting point you have, I think Lucas should not be allowed to justify empty writing as "different writing".


It's clear from watching Ep1 and 2 that there wasn't enough story to fill four hours, so that's why we get a 13-minute podrace and the drawn out, boring car chase through Coruscant. And the endless love stuff of Ep 2 while nothing else is happening, it's "Star Wars" not "Star Holidays".


Only about 5 minutes of Ep1 was necessary for the grand storyline and more than 2/3rds of Ep2 could have been removed without affecting the plot. So that means a major part of the prequels, thus far, have been special effects experiments and eye candy. This means that, unfortunately, these films will most likely become dated and irrelevant very quickly. That's what I think as well, and also they feel less rewarding to me, I invest my ticket money and my precious time to see Lucas do a few jazz riffs and a 20% story? That doesn't seem right, he's broken the contract between moviemaker and moviegoer I feel, especially for someone like Lucas who had shown some level of integrity in that department previously.


Of course, many of these criticisms could be leveled at the ROTJ as well (still my favorite movie of the series). However, the difference being that Lucas waited until audiences got to know and love the characters before wasting screen time and "doodling around."I think the main reason ROTJ gets away with a little of this - and I don't think it's anywhere near the offender in those 2 departments that the prequels 1 and 2 are - is because it has proper foundation built by the other movies AND it succeeds in bringing closure to the main plot threads. The prequels, by contrast, are working from the opposite end, they're films that are supposed to be FOUNDATION-BUILDING but instead are 20% films and at times actively subvert what foundation they had carried over from the original Star Wars saga.

2-1B
05-19-2005, 05:03 AM
I don't buy that, JT. Lucas saying that "they're not whole films" is not the equivalent of anybody saying they are "subquality."

Lucas didn't come out and admit that they are subquality, that's an opinion of many people and they are entitled to that opinion.

Lucas refers to his "notes" or backstory as being 40% the foundation of TPM and AOTC. That's all. The point I take from the interview is that he had that 40% and built on it to make the movies whole . . . some people liked what he came up with and others didn't, but in the end I don't see how that automatically equates with being "Thin."

I think there is a difference between Lucas saying (hypothetically) that the finished TPM has a thin plotline VS. Lucas saying that the original notes he had only comprise 20% of what's on screen.

:)

2-1B
05-19-2005, 05:10 AM
What a f'ing cop out and an utter insult to his long time fanbase. He's implying that "we" are just lashing out because the I and II aren't IV, V, and VI.

Funny that you find it to be insulting because to me it sounds like the same could be said about writing off Prequel Fans as "gullible fanboys" who are only into flash without substance and flat-out blind to The Truth.

stillakid
05-19-2005, 09:22 AM
Funny that you find it to be insulting because to me it sounds like the same could be said about writing off Prequel Fans as "gullible fanboys" who are only into flash without substance and flat-out blind to The Truth.

But the Prequels are only flash without much substance, sooo.....

I mean, Lucas has admitted to this, yet people continue to claim that these are 100% solid story. "God" Himself has told His faithful that it's not all that great, yet they continue to believe it is. If you were me, what would you take from that? :sur:

basschick
05-19-2005, 09:58 AM
i can explain in one word - which is anakin's - why i didn't like ep1 very much.

"Yippee!"

how cute :( is there a reason the main character in what will be a sweeping epic have to be cute? frodo managed never to be cute - i appreciated that.

btw, lots of kids i know like the originals - plenty of r2. also i think that most of them simply like a bigger screen, and they haven't gotten to see the original trilogy except on tv in their own home. not a fair comparison to going OUT to the movies, seeing a big screen, eating popcorn, and enjoying a special event.

vadersvette
05-19-2005, 02:04 PM
Besides, I know PLENTY of kids under 25 and not a one of them could be described as fanatical. Sure, there's some interest, but Pokemon and Harry Potter still rule as their primary multi-media hobbies. Star Wars runs a distant third. Who's telling Lucas this stuff?
I don't know, I'm under 25 and I love the prequels, maybe not as much as the ot, but they are still great (why else would I be here?) I know a ton of kids at my college, all my cousins, and many others ages 11-28 that hate pokeyourmom, and harry pothead, and love Star Wars. It's like vegetables, some really like them, some hate them (I hate vegetables :crazed: )

Also, in a recent interview with Lucas and McCallum, they said that Eps. I-II were made for 10-14 year-olds. So the kid 'grows up' with the movies. As the kid gets more mature at 17, the movies, too, evolve to a more mature and dark style, as seen in ROTS.

bigbarada
05-19-2005, 02:56 PM
Lucas didn't come out and admit that they are subquality, that's an opinion of many people and they are entitled to that opinion.


There are rules to storytelling, they are not a matter of opinion or personal taste. You can't change those rules willy-nilly and expect people to understand you or even appreciate what you've done.

If an artist (and that's what Lucas is) creates a piece of artwork that he understands but nobody else seems to, then that artist has failed on a fundamental level and is just mumbling to himself. Art, like writing and moviemaking, is a form of communication.

Over the last six years since Ep1 premiered, I have talked to many people off and on about the prequels and, almost without fail, they all have the same complaints. Some might be more forgiving if they had a young kid who really enjoyed the movie; but there are fundamental failures of the plot that Lucas was either too lazy or too self-absorbed to fix.

I personally believe that with all the "George Lucas is a god!" talk around the Special-Edition timeframe, that Lucas actually began to believe his own hype and felt that where ever he led the story fans would follow without question and he could do no wrong.

How wrong he was.
:sur:

2-1B
05-20-2005, 01:47 AM
But the Prequels are only flash without much substance, sooo.....

I mean, Lucas has admitted to this, yet people continue to claim that these are 100% solid story. "God" Himself has told His faithful that it's not all that great, yet they continue to believe it is. If you were me, what would you take from that? :sur:

You say the prequels are only flash while I say they have some flash but also some nice themes running through them: friendship, loyalty, family, and other stuff that you don't find yourself.

I don't think they are 100% solid story. AOTC is awesome but has its weak points, top on my list being that stupidity with Threepio swappin' heads. If he did that for a half hour in the movie I would probably be too put off to enjoy the movie on the whole. But it is a short amount of time and not enough to ruin the Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme stuff for me.

If you don't like it, fine, but your opinion that they are PURE flash is not a fact, and you know that. I will respect your opinion that it's all flash but I'll never accept that as a fact.

And here you go, telling us that Lucas' comments are that he is saying they aren't that great when it's not what he said. I read the article, the whole article and not some blurb on the web and that's what I took from it. Deal with it.

In answer to your question of If I were you, what would I take from that, my move would be to do the exact same thing you've done here. :) For the past several years it has been your mission to extinguish fires of passion for the hobby of these movies, pointing out to people who enjoy these films that they are blind and dumb, and while I don't understand why you would devote so much time to writing essays trying to convince people that they have been duped, I can understand that since the time has been invested you gotta keep the ball rolling. No turning back.

Well, it appears to not have been all for naught, as seen here:


There are rules to storytelling, they are not a matter of opinion or personal taste. You can't change those rules willy-nilly and expect people to understand you or even appreciate what you've done.

If an artist (and that's what Lucas is) creates a piece of artwork that he understands but nobody else seems to, then that artist has failed on a fundamental level and is just mumbling to himself. Art, like writing and moviemaking, is a form of communication.

Over the last six years since Ep1 premiered, I have talked to many people off and on about the prequels and, almost without fail, they all have the same complaints. Some might be more forgiving if they had a young kid who really enjoyed the movie; but there are fundamental failures of the plot that Lucas was either too lazy or too self-absorbed to fix.

I personally believe that with all the "George Lucas is a god!" talk around the Special-Edition timeframe, that Lucas actually began to believe his own hype and felt that where ever he led the story fans would follow without question and he could do no wrong.

How wrong he was.

Hey bigB, did you give stillakid your login password ? lol

stillakid I take it back, all your preaching has been somewhat productive afterall, because here we find a bigB who once had a passion for these films but then left for awhile, took a few semesters in the film industry, and has now come back to put the rest of us in our place. lol Thanks for the try bigB but your conversion is not very persuasive. So Peter Jackson came along and made a beautiful trilogy for you. Big deal. stillakid is not a fan of that series so once you are done lecturing me about films, maybe you can kneel before stillakid for some re-education on LOTR because you are obviously wrong in how good those films are. lol

JediTricks
05-20-2005, 04:12 AM
I don't buy that, JT. Lucas saying that "they're not whole films" is not the equivalent of anybody saying they are "subquality." Are you saying a 20% story for Eps 1 and 2 makes them of the same quality as a film that's all about the story? Or we can go the other way, if it's a trilogy why aren't Eps 1 and 2 carrying their fair share of the load?


Lucas didn't come out and admit that they are subquality, that's an opinion of many people and they are entitled to that opinion. Yes, that's what makes it an EDITORIAL. :p Look, I never said Lucas said they were "subquality", I said that was Thrawn's feeling (and that's only how I interpret it) and that Lucas himself said they were not whole films, which I feel lends voracity to the opinion that they're subquality by that reasoning.


Lucas refers to his "notes" or backstory as being 40% the foundation of TPM and AOTC. That's all. The point I take from the interview is that he had that 40% and built on it to make the movies whole . . . some people liked what he came up with and others didn't, but in the end I don't see how that automatically equates with being "Thin." Well, hit me off some context, all the quotes I have so far say that it DOES equate it with being thin, each film contributes a mere 20% to the prequel story and they needed to be padded because they didn't really have 2 hours worth of movie to give to the audience.



also i think that most of them simply like a bigger screen, and they haven't gotten to see the original trilogy except on tv in their own home. not a fair comparison to going OUT to the movies, seeing a big screen, eating popcorn, and enjoying a special event.That's a good point, little kids can enjoy some pretty drecky stuff simply because they like going to the movies, hell, some kids get excited when the house lights dim.



Also, in a recent interview with Lucas and McCallum, they said that Eps. I-II were made for 10-14 year-olds. So the kid 'grows up' with the movies. As the kid gets more mature at 17, the movies, too, evolve to a more mature and dark style, as seen in ROTS. There's a name for this, what is it? Oh yeah, "pandering".



I personally believe that with all the "George Lucas is a god!" talk around the Special-Edition timeframe, that Lucas actually began to believe his own hype and felt that where ever he led the story fans would follow without question and he could do no wrong. I'll admit, when I was 21 I got sucked into the Special Edition hype so bad, I was there all the way, even on the news glowing about it because it was re-new and big and "special" and Lucas had made all these caring changes (which turned out to be less caring than he claimed, but I've delved into that quite a bit in the past so I'll let it go), but the minute I actually saw the big screen version of the new Sy Snootles scenes in Jabba's Palace, the love affair ended and it didn't take long for me to get snapped back to the reality I felt about Lucas's new philosophies on moviemaking and Star Wars.



You say the prequels are only flash while I say they have some flash but also some nice themes running through them: friendship, loyalty, family, and other stuff that you don't find yourself. Ok, true enough, but there are SO MANY other films that have these "nice themes" running through them. Where's the wizardry, where's the magic, where's the feeling of the modern myth? I don't think it's there.

2-1B
05-20-2005, 05:27 AM
Why do you ask me rhetorical questions about where the magic is ? :p You've read many of my posts, you've seen my enthusiasm for these characters . . . maybe I should ask you why you can't find what I see ? :crazed:

Seriously though, Lucas always talks about this backstory that he had written, and by "written" it is a bunch of notes on a piece of paper or whatever.

20% of the plot for AOTC was in those notes and the rest of it was made up as he went. Take Jango Fett for instance, some people say it's gratuitous pandering to the fanboys to drop the Fetts in there, whereas I read Lucas' interview a few years back in which he said he needed "somebody" to use as a clone donor so he figured why not connect Boba Fett in that way. Perfect example of making stuff up as he went and it sure as hell was not in the "backstory."

Now, I think the Fett plotline turned out to be fantastic and while not part of the original 20% plot, I'd say it is a quality addition to the saga and it adds a solid 10-15% or what have you (I haven't assigned precise percentages yet ;) ). Do you see where I'm going here ? Just because only 20% of AOTC was mapped out ahead of time, I don't believe that it is automatically 20% story and 80% fluff . . . I love some of the new stuff. Meh.

And really, I'd like to know why Lucas' comments about these allegedly thin plot lines are being given such attention by you guys ? :confused: I always read about how GLu changes his story on different topics (and I don't argue with that, 'cause he sometimes does :p ) so why is it that he is now being taken at his word ? ;)

stillakid
05-20-2005, 11:14 AM
I always read about how GLu changes his story on different topics (and I don't argue with that, 'cause he sometimes does :p ) so why is it that he is now being taken at his word ? ;)

For me, it's not that I don't necessarily take him at his word. I think that he truly madly deeply :D believes whatever is coming out of his mouth at any given time. But like his hero, Anakin, that reality in his own mind is subject to change without warning. So one day, Lucas may believe and say X, and the next he may forget about it completely and say Y. Billionaires can afford to be eccentric that way. :crazed:

bigbarada
05-20-2005, 12:15 PM
Hey bigB, did you give stillakid your login password ? lol

stillakid I take it back, all your preaching has been somewhat productive afterall, because here we find a bigB who once had a passion for these films but then left for awhile, took a few semesters in the film industry, and has now come back to put the rest of us in our place. lol Thanks for the try bigB but your conversion is not very persuasive. So Peter Jackson came along and made a beautiful trilogy for you. Big deal. stillakid is not a fan of that series so once you are done lecturing me about films, maybe you can kneel before stillakid for some re-education on LOTR because you are obviously wrong in how good those films are. lol

I'm willing to forgive stillakid's misguided dilike of the LOTR series. :p

If you can enjoy the prequels for what they are, I can understand that.

Technically, ANH is the best of the six films and one of the greatest movies ever made. ESB is the most well written and acted and is the #1 fan favorite of the series (but it's not a self-contained movie so that give ANH the advantage).

Despite all of this ROTJ was my first love when it comes to Star Wars movies, thus it will always be my favorite. Even though I can admit that it is the weakest film of the OT and is actually kind of a snoozer in some scenes.

I think being a true fan of a movie doesn't mean blindly ignoring its obvious faults. It means loving the films in spite of its obvious faults.

stillakid
05-20-2005, 12:40 PM
So Peter Jackson came along and made a beautiful trilogy for you. Big deal. stillakid is not a fan of that series so once you are done lecturing me about films, maybe you can kneel before stillakid for some re-education on LOTR because you are obviously wrong in how good those films are. lol

He's not wrong. :)

When I initially read this post, I'll admit, I didn't know what to say. Big B appears to be going through a similar education that I had which reveals the storytelling process to those willing to learn about it. So his "love" of LOTR did sort of confound me at first.

But, given some thought, the explanation became evident. See, I don't dislike LOTR for the same reasons I dislike the Star Wars Prequels. Comparing my critiques of both is like comparing apples to oranges. My primary problem, and pretty much only one as I recall, is that there is a definitive lack of true motivation for the hero (the kid) to engage in that quest to return the ring. As I recall (it's been awhile, so forgive me if I get some detail wrong), pretty much the only thing driving Frodo (? was that his name?) is the Fantasy Genre reliance on "fate" or "destiny." He doesn't have any true motivation for going beyond this intangible of being, well, the chosen one to do it. For my money, that's a pretty weak motivation for any character in any movie and to hinge an entire epic on it smacks of laziness on the part of the writer.

Aside from that, I didn't find myself becoming engaged in any of the LOTR characters at all. Team-Quest was like a Swiss-Army knife of abilities and it never really seemed to make a difference whether one of them died or not so long as Frodo made it to the next scene alive. Because of this, I never found any reason to become invested emotionally with any of them.

But arguably, those are conventions of that Fantasy genre which I'm not a fan of. I can not like them personally, but that doesn't mean that there is anything intrinsically flawed within that arena.


The Star Wars Prequels, on the other hand, are intrinsically flawed in many ways. The problems really center around maintaining proper continuity with established story and with events leading logically to the next and the next. Those are just writing basics that any author should be following no matter the genre and the Prequels failed to follow them in almost every instance.


Look, if I'm reading this right, you and others are miffed because we "experts" are telling you that the movies are inherently flawed and you want to believe that they are not. What doesn't seem to be getting through is that nobody is telling anybody that they shouldn't enjoy them "for what they are" if they choose to do so. But just because somebody knows the alphabet, doesn't automatically mean that they know how to be a good writer. And just because somebody can pay $8 bucks to see a movie, doesn't mean that they know how to actually make one. I know that when I flush my toilet, that the plumbing works, but that doesn't make me a plumber. So if the Plumber showed up and told me what was wrong with the way my house was plumbed, why would I argue with him? He's the one who was trained to do this and can recognize problems more accurately than I? So why the doubt toward those of us who have studied film and have made it a career? It is illogical.

:)

Mad Slanted Powers
05-20-2005, 12:57 PM
All I know is that I went to see TPM seven times in the theater and AOTC three times. While watching ROTS, I was almost thinking that I'm not as enthused about going to see it again. I'll admit I was a bit burned out on TPM the last couple times I saw it. By AOTC, I guess three times was enough to absorb the story. I will be going to see ROTS again because there was so much happening that it was hard to take in with one viewing. I think that seeing Anakin turn and the Jedi eliminated was difficult to watch, even though we knew it was coming.

I guess for me, I loved TPM because most of the things that bothered other people didn't bother me. I had heard bad things about Jar Jar going into it, but he didn't ruin the movie for me. I don't see the problem with "Yippee!" either. The concept of the midi-chlorians was interesting, and now we see it tied into ROTS. Some felt Qui-Gon didn't belong in TPM, but to me, he helped carry the movie as Liam Neeson was perfect for the role. Also, we now see his importance to the original trilogy at the end of ROTS.

Finally, it seems that many people such as stillakid had a certain preconception of what the prequels should be based on the original trilogy. I think I had many of those same ideas too, but until the story was told, I didn't really know what the story would be. Now the story has been told. Some things may appear to contradict the OT, but, as Obi-Wan said in ROTJ, it all depends on your point of view. I'd rather enjoy the movie and find a way to explain it rather than dismiss the whole thing. As Yoda might say, "Perhaps misinterpreted the original trilogy we did."

2-1B
05-20-2005, 01:42 PM
No stillakid, I'm miffed that you "experts" tell me that the prequels suck so bad while the OT was so glorious. And this is where you will offer to hear what's so bad about the OT, then if I decide to give examples of goofiness in said OT, you'll come back with your proofs that those complaints are either flat out wrong or if they are valid, it is only on minor points. I'm not going to bother with that.

bigB, the Star Wars films are my 6 favorite of all time and in no way do I contend they are the "best" and I do NOT claim, as stillakid misrepresents, that they are not inherently flawed. I'm just looking at what I saw in the OT, I loved those movies, and I love most of what George came up with for the backstory. What some of you guys describe as 'problems' just are not problems the way I see things. Period.

I can go through my DVD collection and find many, many movies that are inherently BETTER than Star Wars, even the mighty ESB and ANH, I own movies that are many many many times "better" than the OT.

So no, stillakid, you weren't reading that right. :)

InsaneJediGirl
05-20-2005, 10:46 PM
Under 25 are not fanatics?I'm 19 and love Star Wars,nothing hobby-wise in my life rivals it.Bit of a sterotype there stilla ;) Anyways,I LOVE the original trilogy.Its better than the PT,but I like the prequels as well. I was hooked onto the OT first,well before thoughts of TPM :crazed:

I think no matter what age group,both sets of trilogies will be liked pretty equally.

JediTricks
05-21-2005, 02:04 AM
My primary problem, and pretty much only one as I recall, is that there is a definitive lack of true motivation for the hero (the kid) to engage in that quest to return the ring. As I recall (it's been awhile, so forgive me if I get some detail wrong), pretty much the only thing driving Frodo (? was that his name?) is the Fantasy Genre reliance on "fate" or "destiny." He doesn't have any true motivation for going beyond this intangible of being, well, the chosen one to do it. For my money, that's a pretty weak motivation for any character in any movie and to hinge an entire epic on it smacks of laziness on the part of the writer.I'm not a major LOTR buff, I didn't like the books and I didn't pay attention to the uber-depth stuff, but I think you totally missed the point of Frodo taking the ring to its destruction. As I saw it, Frodo didn't take on this quest because he felt the call of fate or destiny, he did so because of his loyalty to and trust in Gandalf, and that was only taking it to Rivendale (the middle of the first film), the reason he takes on the entire quest of the rest of the movies to destroy the ring is because of his inner nobility and honor and purity of heart, he sees that those entrusted to destroy the ring are incapable of dealing with the situation because they all have interests in it and aren't capable of trusting the others, he knows that as a member of the relatively-unalligned and an unimportant Hobbit race he can break through the bickering and get the job done, and because if the job isn't done the entire world including his beloved homeland will be destroyed. Classic myth-based character motivation.

I will point out that Luke undertakes his quest in ANH for many of the same reasons, he's noble, pure of heart and sees nobody else willing to rescue the princess, he quickly gets sucked in by a wizard he trusts and feels somewhat loyal to (though this is bolstered from the beginning by Ben's deeds and words), and he sees the firsthand devistation caused by this quest's failure.

basschick
05-21-2005, 02:51 AM
that's a good point, and i hadn't considered it before. a lot of my favorites have that same sort of thing - the innocent main character who is forced into saving the land/world/planet/galaxy.

taran in the book of three series, talia in valdemar, garion in the belgariad, and to some degree harry potter and dorothy in some of the wizard of oz books - plus other characters in oz. didn't neo go into the entire matrix thing to try and help? heck, even buffy slays vampires when she'd rather be living a normal life.

and what about han solo and others of his ilk? he's a sort of low-end criminal, but he finds the nobility in himself to help save, well, everybody.


I will point out that Luke undertakes his quest in ANH for many of the same reasons, he's noble, pure of heart and sees nobody else willing to rescue the princess, he quickly gets sucked in by a wizard he trusts and feels somewhat loyal to (though this is bolstered from the beginning by Ben's deeds and words), and he sees the firsthand devistation caused by this quest's failure.

stillakid
05-21-2005, 07:12 PM
Under 25 are not fanatics?I'm 19 and love Star Wars,nothing hobby-wise in my life rivals it.Bit of a sterotype there stilla ;) Anyways,I LOVE the original trilogy.Its better than the PT,but I like the prequels as well. I was hooked onto the OT first,well before thoughts of TPM :crazed:

I think no matter what age group,both sets of trilogies will be liked pretty equally.

That age range was set by Lucas and I didn't really agree with it. :) Aside from the obvious "fanatics," :) in general, most kids from 14 to 19-ish don't invest themselves too much into anything beyond each other, clothes, sports, and each other. Current 13 and under have the Harry Potter/Pokemon thing for the most part. 20-ish and over have to work a little harder at finding time to invest in hobbies as career building is taking priority.

JediTricks
05-22-2005, 07:22 PM
Stilla, what was the point of your post, to show that you're just as narrow-minded as Lucas? Those are the same types of stereotypes that Lucas presented with his age-ism comments.

stillakid
05-23-2005, 01:31 AM
Stilla, what was the point of your post, to show that you're just as narrow-minded as Lucas? Those are the same types of stereotypes that Lucas presented with his age-ism comments.

Yeah, I know. :( I feel that I'm starting down the darkpath and seeing the world in only black and white terms. You're either with me or you're against me. :eek:


;)


But really, I need to pull back from all of this. All that needs to be said has been said I think. And this time, it hasn't all just been me. :) I'm just happy that everybody in the world has a hobby to enjoy...well, most people have something to enjoy. :sur: I just wish everyone in the world had the luxury of being able to waste time on this kind of nonsense like we do. I'd like to buy the world a Coke... :classic:

KPl
06-13-2005, 04:59 AM
>>
I'm not a major LOTR buff, I didn't like the books and I didn't pay attention to the uber-depth stuff, but I think you totally missed the point of Frodo taking the ring to its destruction. As I saw it, Frodo didn't take on this quest because he felt the call of fate or destiny, he did so because of his loyalty to and trust in Gandalf, and that was only taking it to Rivendale (the middle of the first film), the reason he takes on the entire quest of the rest of the movies to destroy the ring is because of his inner nobility and honor and purity of heart, he sees that those entrusted to destroy the ring are incapable of dealing with the situation because they all have interests in it and aren't capable of trusting the others, he knows that as a member of the relatively-unalligned and an unimportant Hobbit race he can break through the bickering and get the job done, and because if the job isn't done the entire world including his beloved homeland will be destroyed. Classic myth-based character motivation.
>>

Actually no. Frodo is an adventurer wannabe who loves to 'speak to elves', walk through unknown trails and woods, hear stories of the Great Beyond etc. etc. (the whole Took tainted bloodline thing don'tcha know). Yet he is, for a Hobbit just entering his majority at thirty odd years of age and so is still a little gunshy (or Hobbitlike) of leaving his beloved Shire for the Adventurer's Road.

This is why he remains to soak up the goodness of his land and people's quiet routines for a few more years when Bilbo finally sets out on his second and last quest to revisit his prior quest haunts.

Of course the 'real reason' is that it gives Tolkien a method of separating The One Ring from the past-it generation to a younger, less wisened, yet 'hardier' stock.

Bilbo and Frodo BOTH having been chosen by Gandalf because they didn't quite meet the stereotypical Webster's definition of 'what a Hobbit is' (conservative to the point of turtle like in all things).

Yet the ultimate driver of Frodo's subsequent flight was the arrival of the Ring Wraiths into the Shire and the dark portents (plus Gandalf's /absence/) which made him _fear for his life_, living in his new isolated home outside the Shire proper.

That said, there were FIVE QUESTIONS which needed answering at the Council Of Elrond held in Rivendale which, if properly considered, would have eliminated the entirety of the rest of the story.

1. Is it safe?
i.e. Can we trust everyone here to not give a word of what they are being told to idle gossip or direct interrogation. For the Wraiths and their human representatives were in fact all over the Middle Earth searching for news of the Ring and trying to keep the Folk from uniting. If there was even a chance of the council being 'overheard' by remote viewing or a traitor within the ranks then the rule of two applies in terms of not saying a word that you don't want every man and his two best friends to know within a half hour.

2. How long until Frodo Cracks?
Because if HE is the guy who is the weak link, then any 'quest into darkness' must be timed to prevent him from being seduced by the Ring's power or it's panic as it nears Mt. Doom. You cannot have your designated Bearer going nutzo while you are sneaking past a troop of orcs.

3. Are the fires of THAT EXACT volcano the only means by which TOR can be destroyed?
What about another dragon? There were a few left in the Grey Mountains and Withered Heath, even post-Smaug. No? Then what about /another/ Volcano? Going into the lion's den is one thing. Shining a great big lantirn in front of it's sleeping eyes before kicking it in the teeth is quite another. Not if there are ANY other options.

4. Does Gandalf have residual pull with the Eagles?
The original notion being that he had used up all his favors when The Lord of that people saved him, in turn for his having pulled an arrow from his wing. Yet if the Eagles can carry Frodo even /partway/ (say from the Forests of Lorien) into Mordor, then you may safely carry out the mission. ALL OTHER ROADS lead only to death and failure. Much as Boromir suggested, the number of chance-lethal encounters that the Hobbits had to overcome without anything more than dumb, blind, luck exceeded any rational belief threshold of success in the final outcome (Gollum and Emyn Muil cliffs; the Marshes of the Dead; the men of Rhiallen; the Morgul host; Shelob the Spider; Cirith Ungol capture; Orc Conscript Slavers on the road to Udun...on and on, each event worsening the likelihood of their making it let alone doing so /in time/.). OTOH, air time is a function of not being intercepted in the long flight from the northern border to Mt. Doom.

5. Can you get the knights of Minas Tirith to enact a deceptive maneuver plan against Minas Ithil?
Because this is essential to making Sauron concentrate his attention and resources on the Western Approaches rather than the northern rim. In particular, if all the wing mounted Wring Wraiths are say 100-150 miles to the South-Southwest of Mt. Doom, then a flight of Eagles coming straight across the Dagorlad plains and someways west or east of the Black Gate (over the Ash Mountains) can have /some/ chance of beating the resulting intercept to a direct landing at the doorway to the furnace room. Possibly even without their knowing they are coming at all.

THAT is the worst screwup of the entire conceptual piece. Tolkien being neither a really great characterization expert nor a particularly skilled storyteller so much as an /incredible/ 'scenic environmentalist'. This is why, IMO, the LOTR story arc faded after the first movie because when they split the Fellowship up, too much of the action and development of the storyline was also fragmented without the great word-smith backstory to make you believe in each piece having an individual 'imagined value'.

That said, it is miles and years beyond what Lucas puked iup his liver upon the SWU with.

>>
I will point out that Luke undertakes his quest in ANH for many of the same reasons, he's noble, pure of heart and sees nobody else willing to rescue the princess, he quickly gets sucked in by a wizard he trusts and feels somewhat loyal to (though this is bolstered from the beginning by Ben's deeds and words), and he sees the firsthand devistation caused by this quest's failure.
>>

Bwuahahahahah! Luke is a farm boy stuck on a backwater world watching his life go by and KNOWING with each passing year that whatever small chance he has of testing his mettle is fading with the aging of his body and the lack of experiential equality with his age group as a function of competing in a military or commercial environment.

The purity of his ideals are further tarnished when he has a clearly 'all male' response to his sister's message and later to the notion of getting her even if it means leaving the droids unguarded and fragmenting the party far from their means of escape.

Indeed, it takes Yoda (whom I now view as a hypocrite of the first order) to begin the process of discovering whether there is a man beneath the callow, self-doubting and (rightfully) paranoid demi-youth who has gone from having no future to having a present dominated by 'more adventure than he can handle'. What with bounty hunters and assassin droids on his personal trail as well as all the associated risks that being a member of the Rebellion provides on a "Is this what I am about?" basis of commited, audited or refugee causal basis.

If the Rebels are the only group where he need not fear everyone around him, then surely it is Yoda's _driving_ him to rescue his friends (If Yoda wanted to say no way bucko, Luke would not have gone, period. Dot.) which tempers his commitment to more than who they are as a function of an exciteable youth /possibly/ believing he could beat the Empire and Vader, alone.

Strive in a no-win situation for personal reasons because of the adrenaline factor. Lose, badly.

_Fight to Win_ for the /right cause/ (which goes beyond personal belief) and even if you lose, someone will see your example and carry on.

THAT is what ROTJ should have been about. And it wasn't.

As for the guy who said he 'kinda liked Ewoks'. Bleeyich. I get so tired of the underdog theory on sacrificial victory. Because competence does more when the forces are evenly matched for both literal and numerica size/capabilities. And an 'entire legion' (if it equated with Roman OrBats) would mean upwards of 4,300-5,300 combat troops (though as few as 1,000 in later periods among territorial garrisons was admittedly possible).

Armed with autofire weapons, in a cleared killing zone sufficiently wide to support ops by AT-ATs, and Speeder Bikes making strafing runs, these would have been able to generate upwards of 60X5,300= THREE HUNDRED EIGHTEEN THOUSAND aimed shots per minute. Which, far from a Rorkes drift scenario, would have butchered any number of Feral Teddy Bears in _seconds_.

And there's the rub. Because these teddy bears are without doubt the worst anatomical solution to a Giant Sequoya type arboreal environment you could /possibly/ come up with. You want something that has a very low specific gravity in very evenly spaced trunk structure with good spine flexibility and excellent ball-and-cuff rotator joints on comparitively LONG arms and legs with no thrusting reversed pelvis (bipedal locomotion compromised) to push the body out from a vertical surface you would almost have to wrap yourself /across/ as much as around to navigate. Indeed, you might want to have flying skins for inter-bole transits. Which gives you a cross between a spider monkey and a flying squirrel. NOT a 'see my pelt seam?' little person.

Yet once you make these morphological sacrifices the whole notion of manipulating large objects like logs and ropes becomes unsupportable, even if the head of the creature (or whatever body cavity houses it's cognitive capabilities) is of sufficient size to support the abstract/inductive reasoning of true sapiency as opposed to merely instinctive sentience (which is all the Ewoks seemed to display, even as tribal creatures, insulting the 'common man' theory as an equality theme as well as belittling the Empire as a threat).

Bleeeyurgh, it is just /so/ easy to get on ROTJ's case and tear it to shreds...


KP

aceguide
06-13-2005, 09:19 AM
Lucas has a valid point. One myself and others have championed from the beginning, we're older and more jaded. We can't see the new films with the sample simple standpoint of innocence we had when we saw the OT. I for one enjoy the prequels just as much as I do the OT. In fact, depending on mood I often prefer the stories of the prequels. I don't see it as an insult at all to the long time fanbase. Just his interpretation of the facts as he sees them. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that it's not just as true and valid as yours. As for judging the prequels crap, that is likewise your opinion. Besides, considering the source is IMDB.Com I would take the story with a grain of salt.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Ditto.

Also - Stilla - how old are your kids? Just wondering because my house is all SW all the time (in addition to the aforementioned HP - BTW - Pokemon is over...). In fact, my whole neighborhood is outside dueling with their lightsabers right now (I exagerate not - 5 boys and 2 girls were at it for 2 hours last night). Age range: 7 - 11.

stillakid
06-13-2005, 09:40 AM
Ditto.

Also - Stilla - how old are your kids? Just wondering because my house is all SW all the time (in addition to the aforementioned HP - BTW - Pokemon is over...). In fact, my whole neighborhood is outside dueling with their lightsabers right now (I exagerate not - 5 boys and 2 girls were at it for 2 hours last night). Age range: 7 - 11.

My children are 10 and 7.

And as far as the interest level goes, I agree, since ROTS there has been a spike in interest from kids. But TPM and AOTC didn't conjure that kind of repsonse from...well, anyone. What's ironic is that this PG-13 film, which arguably had more "Star Wars-ish" stuff to it than TPM or AOTC has appealed to more kids under 13 than the other two which were merely PG.




I will point out that Luke undertakes his quest in ANH for many of the same reasons, he's noble, pure of heart and sees nobody else willing to rescue the princess, he quickly gets sucked in by a wizard he trusts and feels somewhat loyal to (though this is bolstered from the beginning by Ben's deeds and words), and he sees the firsthand devistation caused by this quest's failure.
I disagree. Luke saw a hot girl and he wanted to get laid. He didn't do it because he's pure of heart and had the noblest of causes. It turns out that he has to choose to have those virtues later on, but in ANH, he's just a farmkid trying to get off that rock and it turns out that he saw a holo image of a Playmate (his equivalent of) and miraculously got the opportunity to rescue her. The story may be deeper than that, but Luke wasn't.

LOTR depends on it's characters to wear their hearts on their sleeves as the primary motivators. As in "You are noble and must do this." Okay. I prefer a story to compel a character to have to do something because they have no choice, not because they are "fated" or "destined" to do it. That's the biggest problem I have with this "Chosen One" nonsense in the Prequels. Not only is it lazy writing, to have a character fated to do something, but it was never explained or brought to a conclusion in any way in the Star Wars saga.

aceguide
06-14-2005, 10:26 AM
My children are 10 and 7.

And as far as the interest level goes, I agree, since ROTS there has been a spike in interest from kids. But TPM and AOTC didn't conjure that kind of repsonse from...well, anyone. What's ironic is that this PG-13 film, which arguably had more "Star Wars-ish" stuff to it than TPM or AOTC has appealed to more kids under 13 than the other two which were merely PG.

I am curious about the lack of interest your kids showed in I & II. My boy bit hard on EPI - loved the whole thing. Liked it a lot better than the OT for a while. I have now successfully brainwashed him - but ROTJ remains his favorite of the 6. He is even tempted to put ROTS ahead of that.

Ender82
06-16-2005, 08:58 PM
I didn't read all the replies so if someone wrote this already, thank you. Can't Star wars fans just like the movies? Quit over-analyzing everthing! Just enjoy the movies! Sure i've read most of the books and have a couple hundred stars wars collectibles but I don't ***** about the PT 24 hours a day. Sure there are holes in plot and and some annoying attributes(jar jar) but the PT movies are good, entertaining movies and for the sad idiot fanboys that can't see that, please stop posting about how much you hate the PT. move on, I use to enjoy reading the forums but now it is just depressing. I know for some reason you feel superior when you demean lucas in the forums which is sad in itself. Just be thankful that he made the movies. He's not going to redo them to fit all your criteria, he's made billions, so fanboys complaining probably doesn't matter to him.

KPl
06-16-2005, 11:19 PM
>>

I didn't read all the replies...

>>

Translation: "Because I choose not to hold a writing/production team to any SANE level of cognitive or imaginative TQM responsibility when I walk into a theater, why the heck should I deign to do so myself when I leave it? How dare you confuse me, after the fact! It's affecting my dopamine release!"

>>

Can't Star wars fans just like the movies? Quit over-analyzing everthing! Just enjoy the movies!

>>

Translation: "Quit making me feel stupid for not seeing what is obvious to everyone with a detached mindset. I don't care if it was justifiable boredom that made you so analytical, just shut up and eat your popcorn like all the other cattle!"

>>

Sure i've read most of the books and have a couple hundred stars wars collectibles but I don't ***** about the PT 24 hours a day.

>>

Translation: "I mean I have all the required 'collectors items' doesn't that make me just as eligible for membership in the 'real' Secret Star Wars fanclub as all the smart people?"

>>

Sure there are holes in plot and and some annoying attributes(jar jar) but the PT movies are good, entertaining movies and for the sad idiot fanboys that can't see that, please stop posting about how much you hate the PT.

>>

Translation: "Damn, I wish I had thought of sum'a'dem! All thoses smart people are making me feel inadequate again. Lucas, make them stop!"

>>

move on, I use to enjoy reading the forums but now it is just depressing. I know for some reason you feel superior when you demean lucas in the forums which is sad in itself. Just be thankful that he made the movies. He's not going to redo them to fit all your criteria, he's made billions, so fanboys complaining probably doesn't matter to him.

>>

"He's Ma Hewoe, you should be grateful I share him w'youze intellectual types! Afta all, he's rich and i$n't dat what A-may-we-ka is all about?! Forget that individualist thinking nonsense, after all if Lucas wanted to encourage young people to think, he would have told us to in the story!"

ARGUMENT:

How does it feel to be made fun of because _you_ come off sounding slope browed and/or willfully ignorant? For that is effectively what you make ME feel like when the choice is 'accepting the awful' and being allowed to play nice with the rest of the moo'ers.

Or criticizing it in hopes that it is either made better (My vengeance may yet come when the digital media that man espouses destroys his reputation, utterly, 'in the rewrites'). An acceptable third choice being that the Almighty Creator is not allowed to further butcher his own themes _any more_.

I have read each of the PT Novelizations and actually found some depth in them. Zahn does the best he can with what he has even if it is embarrassing to see the mechanization of linkage techniques that is Ghost Writing 101 so obviously in play.

After plowing through a few, I don't find anything of value in any of the rest of the post-ROTJ EU fiction except for snippets of the short fiction online.

OTOH, have you even /heard/ of _Splinter Of The Mind's Eye_? How about _The Han Solo Trilogy_? Good, journeyman, writing there. Not perfect but well up in the Zane Grey area of Pop-Western stylized writing which I am sure would appeal to you with just enough Jedi Myth + SWU tech to make it gel with the overall melieu in my mind.

Of course not being 'obsessed' by the marketing madness which dictates that I buy one of each of a thousand and one inaccurate, poorly detailed, 'childishly fanboy toys'*, _of course_ I have a lot of time left over to 'think only about the PT'.

Because that is what I have had to suffer with on BOTH the shallow glitz 'memorabilia' level (not a single interesting vehicle in the entire PT) and deep story end of the Star Wars nightmare for the last 10 years.

As someone who has actually studied some of the philosophies over which Lucas pulls a Myth Inc. sheet to cover up his Yankee Imperialist Running Dog capitalism; imagine my continuing 'these are my fellows?' disappointment with those who would /further still/ the hype over substance that his Dream of 'digital uber alles' has become.

CONCLUSION.

I don't truly care whether you believe I am snide or obsessive or insulting to what I openly admit may very well be doctoral degree lurking behind the thin veneer of trollist engagement tactics you yourself have employed here.

I will put as much depth as I can into my arguments so that I _don't_ come off like you do, a blatantly either:or likey-dislikey simpleton. But rather someone with a well earned chip on his shoulder for 25 years of deteriorating themic content in what should/could/would have been an Iliad & Odyssey for our times.

What I ask of you is this: If "All I care about" is the hash that Lucas made of a fine starting idea.

Then let me.

Because Lucas didn't care beyond the dollars.

BUT I DO.

And while his hackery was obvious from the "I'll hold onto the marketing right$, thank$" start.

MY BITTERNESS arises from the certainty that, out of pure pride, he couldn't just give the project over to people who did have talent and DID WISH TO TELL A GREAT STORY with their gifts and _leave them to it_.

As ESB proved was best for everyone.

If that had happened, he would still be rich and accredited for a wondrous original idea. And I would not be left wanting to drown his grandmother in the womb so NONE OF IT could be here, polluting film art with a completely undeserved reputation.

Oh yes, I am bitter, hear me whine. Then go buy another collectible.





KPl.





*(MPC/AMT your misfitting box-scale vehicle kits build up like they were designed by a crackhead in withdrawal and NEVER benefitted from post 1970s tooling improvements! Fine Molds/ICONS I can't even -afford- yours and they are in too small a scale! Kenner, well, you did a few nice ones [Snow Speeder, Cloud Car] but look at the engines on the Millenium Falcon and then start Esplaining Lucy.)

stillakid
06-17-2005, 08:35 AM
>>

I didn't read all the replies...

>>

Translation: "Because I choose not to hold a writing/production team to any SANE level of cognitive or imaginative TQM responsibility when I walk into a theater, why the heck should I deign to do so myself when I leave it? How dare you confuse me, after the fact! It's affecting my dopamine release!"

>>

Can't Star wars fans just like the movies? Quit over-analyzing everthing! Just enjoy the movies!

>>

Translation: "Quit making me feel stupid for not seeing what is obvious to everyone with a detached mindset. I don't care if it was justifiable boredom that made you so analytical, just shut up and eat your popcorn like all the other cattle!"

>>

Sure i've read most of the books and have a couple hundred stars wars collectibles but I don't ***** about the PT 24 hours a day.

>>

Translation: "I mean I have all the required 'collectors items' doesn't that make me just as eligible for membership in the 'real' Secret Star Wars fanclub as all the smart people?"

>>

Sure there are holes in plot and and some annoying attributes(jar jar) but the PT movies are good, entertaining movies and for the sad idiot fanboys that can't see that, please stop posting about how much you hate the PT.

>>

Translation: "Damn, I wish I had thought of sum'a'dem! All thoses smart people are making me feel inadequate again. Lucas, make them stop!"

>>

move on, I use to enjoy reading the forums but now it is just depressing. I know for some reason you feel superior when you demean lucas in the forums which is sad in itself. Just be thankful that he made the movies. He's not going to redo them to fit all your criteria, he's made billions, so fanboys complaining probably doesn't matter to him.

>>

"He's Ma Hewoe, you should be grateful I share him w'youze intellectual types! Afta all, he's rich and i$n't dat what A-may-we-ka is all about?! Forget that individualist thinking nonsense, after all if Lucas wanted to encourage young people to think, he would have told us to in the story!"

ARGUMENT:

How does it feel to be made fun of because _you_ come off sounding slope browed and/or willfully ignorant? For that is effectively what you make ME feel like when the choice is 'accepting the awful' and being allowed to play nice with the rest of the moo'ers.

Or criticizing it in hopes that it is either made better (My vengeance may yet come when the digital media that man espouses destroys his reputation, utterly, 'in the rewrites'). An acceptable third choice being that the Almighty Creator is not allowed to further butcher his own themes _any more_.

I have read each of the PT Novelizations and actually found some depth in them. Zahn does the best he can with what he has even if it is embarrassing to see the mechanization of linkage techniques that is Ghost Writing 101 so obviously in play.

After plowing through a few, I don't find anything of value in any of the rest of the post-ROTJ EU fiction except for snippets of the short fiction online.

OTOH, have you even /heard/ of _Splinter Of The Mind's Eye_? How about _The Han Solo Trilogy_? Good, journeyman, writing there. Not perfect but well up in the Zane Grey area of Pop-Western stylized writing which I am sure would appeal to you with just enough Jedi Myth + SWU tech to make it gel with the overall melieu in my mind.

Of course not being 'obsessed' by the marketing madness which dictates that I buy one of each of a thousand and one inaccurate, poorly detailed, 'childishly fanboy toys'*, _of course_ I have a lot of time left over to 'think only about the PT'.

Because that is what I have had to suffer with on BOTH the shallow glitz 'memorabilia' level (not a single interesting vehicle in the entire PT) and deep story end of the Star Wars nightmare for the last 10 years.

As someone who has actually studied some of the philosophies over which Lucas pulls a Myth Inc. sheet to cover up his Yankee Imperialist Running Dog capitalism; imagine my continuing 'these are my fellows?' disappointment with those who would /further still/ the hype over substance that his Dream of 'digital uber alles' has become.

CONCLUSION.

I don't truly care whether you believe I am snide or obsessive or insulting to what I openly admit may very well be doctoral degree lurking behind the thin veneer of trollist engagement tactics you yourself have employed here.

I will put as much depth as I can into my arguments so that I _don't_ come off like you do, a blatantly either:or likey-dislikey simpleton. But rather someone with a well earned chip on his shoulder for 25 years of deteriorating themic content in what should/could/would have been an Iliad & Odyssey for our times.

What I ask of you is this: If "All I care about" is the hash that Lucas made of a fine starting idea.

Then let me.

Because Lucas didn't care beyond the dollars.

BUT I DO.

And while his hackery was obvious from the "I'll hold onto the marketing right$, thank$" start.

MY BITTERNESS arises from the certainty that, out of pure pride, he couldn't just give the project over to people who did have talent and DID WISH TO TELL A GREAT STORY with their gifts and _leave them to it_.

As ESB proved was best for everyone.

If that had happened, he would still be rich and accredited for a wondrous original idea. And I would not be left wanting to drown his grandmother in the womb so NONE OF IT could be here, polluting film art with a completely undeserved reputation.

Oh yes, I am bitter, hear me whine. Then go buy another collectible.





KPl.





*(MPC/AMT your misfitting box-scale vehicle kits build up like they were designed by a crackhead in withdrawal and NEVER benefitted from post 1970s tooling improvements! Fine Molds/ICONS I can't even -afford- yours and they are in too small a scale! Kenner, well, you did a few nice ones [Snow Speeder, Cloud Car] but look at the engines on the Millenium Falcon and then start Esplaining Lucy.)

(THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE) :)

Ender82
06-17-2005, 04:42 PM
Wow...you just proved my point...you are the saddest of them all. I like the movies. I grasp the concepts, plots, motifs, and all other literary tools employed in the novels and movies at a degree far beyond yours. How do I know? because of your ignorant and ill-conceived response. I appreciate these movies and the books and the collectibles thus I am insulted when some fat virgin(KPI) insults them. Grow up or at least do the world a favor and decrease the surplus population.

nash
06-18-2005, 08:37 AM
I also love every single one of the episodes. I think that each episode has something unique and different to offer and I dissagree about Ep I and II being horrible.

No one is forcing any of you to watch the prequels so if you dislike them so much, grow up and dont watch them. Just because YOU didnt find it entertaining doesnt give you the right to ruin other peoples mood about it who can actually enjoy it.

Youre obviously not a true fan if youre going to ***** and moan about stupid little loopholes. Lets see you make a movie from the end to the beginning over a 25 year span and not to mention watching your budget and we'll see how complete you can make every nick picking detail connect.