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JON9000
05-20-2005, 11:10 AM
Palpatine's seduction of Anakin in the chamber after the performance. There was some bizarre sexual undercurrent to that scene. Something along the lines of a perverted, powerful old man trying to ply a young kid. First, he played on his trust and feelings of loyalty, told him not to say anything to the grown ups, then he mentioned the dark side in passing without moral judgment, then finally asked the kid to put out, all while looking simply pathetic- "yes, I know I am awful, and you should rat me out..."

That scene just made my skin crawl. If the parallels I just mentioned were there on purpose (and I think they were), all I can say is that it was perfectly written and directed by GL, and expertly acted by McDiarmid. Evil, evil, evil- that scene sold me on how thoroughly rotten Palps was. Ugh- makes you want a cold shower.

stillakid
05-20-2005, 11:51 AM
For the most part, I liked Palp's side of that sequence. Ian plays it with just the right amount of cool-headedness in order to show that he is in charge.

What I didn't buy at all was Anakin's sudden robotic loyalty to Palps. I mean, the conflict he has just before de-handing Mace works well, but just about everything that transpires afterward is a disaster. The ONLY reason he chooses Palps over Mace (the Jedi) is because Palps is going to give him the secret formula for saving Padme's life. But almost as soon as Ani kneels to the floor, Palps retracts his statement saying instead that they will "figure it out together." What!? :eek: Well, that should have been Anakin's reaction because Palps said he knew which is why Ani supposedly chose to betray Mace. And time is of the essence because (somehow) Padme is imminently close to giving birth to full-term babies even though the timeline doesn't support it and she doesn't act like it at all.

To sum up: Ian's part good. Christian's part 5% good, 95% bad.

CaptainSolo1138
05-20-2005, 12:05 PM
And time is of the essence because (somehow) Padme is imminently close to giving birth to full-term babies even though the timeline doesn't support it and she doesn't act like it at all.

This sorta bugged me, too. Giving Uncle George the benefit of the doubt, I assume the course of the movie took place over a nine month period. That I can deal with. What I can't deal with is Padme RUNNING to hug Anakin a few hours before she gives birth. Now, I've never givin birth (because if I had, I would probably be really rich right now. Or part of an on-going scientific experiment. Whatever...) ,but I can't imagine a pregnant woman who is just about to pop would feel much like running, let alone be physically capable of such.


Just a thought, not a complaint. I'm sick of complaints already. :D

stillakid
05-20-2005, 12:11 PM
I'm sick of complaints already. :D

You're complaining about complaining!!! :eek:

;)

JON9000
05-20-2005, 12:17 PM
as soon as Ani kneels to the floor, Palps retracts his statement saying instead that they will "figure it out together." What!? :eek:
That bit seemed odd to me as well, because I thought going in that Palpy had this power and would use it to keep Vader alive, and hence loyal for all those years... nothing I would crap my pants, over, though. Just didn't play out like I expected...

CaptainSolo1138
05-20-2005, 12:36 PM
You're complaining about complaining!!! :eek:

;)
At least my complaint is an original one! I'm not beating the same dead horse everyone else is. ;)

2-1B
05-20-2005, 01:35 PM
Of course Anakin is going to became somewhat robotic, he just killed the head of the council and there's no going back, might as well do what he can to save Padme since that's all he has left (at least, he thinks he still has her lol ).

Bantha274
05-20-2005, 04:00 PM
So does anyone else get the feeling that Palpy killed his master in his sleep after learning all of his powers, then he used the dark side to create Anakin from the force?
That whole scene about the tragedy of Darth Plageious(sp?) led me to believe this.

Someone help me understand.

stillakid
05-20-2005, 05:23 PM
So does anyone else get the feeling that Palpy killed his master in his sleep after learning all of his powers, then he used the dark side to create Anakin from the force?
That whole scene about the tragedy of Darth Plageious(sp?) led me to believe this.

Someone help me understand.
Uh, how much more obvious does George have to make it? :sur:

Sith Lord 0498
05-20-2005, 06:37 PM
So does anyone else get the feeling that Palpy killed his master in his sleep after learning all of his powers, then he used the dark side to create Anakin from the force?
That whole scene about the tragedy of Darth Plageious(sp?) led me to believe this.

Someone help me understand.

Or it may have been Darth Plagueis who created Anakin for the express purpose of corrupting the prophecy to benefit the Sith (but in actually was following its true course the whole time because Anakin does bring balance in Episode VI). Sidious likely killed Plagueis and then decided to make his master's plans for Anakin as his own. He did a similar thing with the clone army that Sifo-Dyas ordered (according to Labyrinth of Evil). Palpatine is a master strategist and an opportunist.

Monstermile
05-20-2005, 10:00 PM
This sorta bugged me, too. Giving Uncle George the benefit of the doubt, I assume the course of the movie took place over a nine month period. That I can deal with. What I can't deal with is Padme RUNNING to hug Anakin a few hours before she gives birth. Now, I've never givin birth (because if I had, I would probably be really rich right now. Or part of an on-going scientific experiment. Whatever...) ,but I can't imagine a pregnant woman who is just about to pop would feel much like running, let alone be physically capable of such.


Just a thought, not a complaint. I'm sick of complaints already. :D


Who said she carried them full term?? Maybe Anakins choke sent her into premature labor. Maybe they had to induce labor in fear of losing the twins as well as her. More of those unanswered questions.

Oh and alot of women are very active up until birth. And some women don't show much until the last month while carrying. My ex-wife fit into both of those catagories while carrying my daughter.

Tiggertheterrible
05-20-2005, 11:15 PM
This sorta bugged me, too. Giving Uncle George the benefit of the doubt, I assume the course of the movie took place over a nine month period. That I can deal with. What I can't deal with is Padme RUNNING to hug Anakin a few hours before she gives birth. Now, I've never givin birth (because if I had, I would probably be really rich right now. Or part of an on-going scientific experiment. Whatever...) ,but I can't imagine a pregnant woman who is just about to pop would feel much like running, let alone be physically capable of such. :D

Speaking as a woman who has squeezed two out (seperately, not twins), I'd have to agree. She wouldn't run, she'd waddle.

ndjedi
05-21-2005, 01:00 AM
Read The Making of Revenge of the Sith, there you will see how Lucas did indeed originally have Palpatine influence the midichlorians to create Anakin in his mother's womb. On page 42 of the this book it reads,
Darth Sidious:
"I have waited all these years for you to fullfill your destiny...I arranged for your conception. I used the power of the Force to will the midichlorians to start the cell division that created you."
Anakin:
"I don't believe you."
Darth Sidious:
"Ahhh, but you know it's true. When you clear your mind, you will sense the truth. You could almost think of me as your father."
Anakin:
"That's impossible!"
Darth Sidious:
"Nevertheless, you must decide..."
This of course was cut out from the original script by Lucas.

Sith Lord 0498
05-21-2005, 07:24 AM
Read The Making of Revenge of the Sith, there you will see how Lucas did indeed originally have Palpatine influence the midichlorians to create Anakin in his mother's womb. On page 42 of the this book it reads,
Darth Sidious:
"I have waited all these years for you to fullfill your destiny...I arranged for your conception. I used the power of the Force to will the midichlorians to start the cell division that created you."
Anakin:
"I don't believe you."
Darth Sidious:
"Ahhh, but you know it's true. When you clear your mind, you will sense the truth. You could almost think of me as your father."
Anakin:
"That's impossible!"
Darth Sidious:
"Nevertheless, you must decide..."
This of course was cut out from the original script by Lucas.

When I first read that in the book, I thought that while it made sense, it was copying too much from the OT. The way it was handled in the movie is much better--it's vague, open to interpretation. The key there is Palpatine's mention of midichlorians. The last time they were mentioned in the PT was during the discussion of Anakin's "miraculous" conception. So when people hear it again in ROTS, their minds immediately flash back to TPM, and they start making the connection.

The Whills
05-21-2005, 09:17 AM
The main thing that I think most of you are forgetting when contemplating anakin's seemingly "quick" turn, is simply that it was his "destiny" to do so.

Just think about it, this kid has been completely confused since day one concerning the cloudiness of his future, the danger of his being trained and on top of all of that he has also been put into the center of an ancient prophecy of biblical manginitude in the star wars universe by his mentors.

In addition to that his mother died, bring ing on a very early journey into the dark side way back in aotc. So this instance in aotc clones alone is enough to assume the switch to the dark side did'nt happen all that quickly.
He also married padme, which was forbidden for obvious reasons. He also seemed to have been brainwashed into blind patriotism due mainly to his stint in the clone wars. This also plays a factor. But this is all fairly obvious.

Of course anakin was seduced by palpatine to save padme' at first, but then upon killing mace and asking himself what he was doing, one line from palps ends my speculation at least. "fufilling your destiny." and while this could be up for debate, I think this line from palps was the last straw in a long chain reaction for anakin. Althought it may have not been his destiny to bring balance to the force in the way he chose to, he nevertheless bought palpatines simple explanation for his actions because he was vulnerable and confused and thus gave in fully to the dark side.

You can get to hell on good intentions.

vulcantouch
05-21-2005, 01:21 PM
-sure, there's plenty of historical and literate precendent for apprenticeship exchanges being thusly colored, from ancient greece to L.I.E. (http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showpost.php?p=223990&postcount=209) :speech:

stilla: "Palps retracts his statement saying instead that they will "figure it out together." What!? Well, that should have been Anakin's reaction"
-first, this hedging fits in perfectly with palpy's character; he could always say "i told you my Master figured out immortality, not me. but i did learn Some of it from him, which you'd never get from the jedi." second, ani's simply being Uncharacteristically shrewd in not showing dismay at this hedging. instead he masks his reaction to show complete loyalty til palpy saves padme, after which he clearly intends to do away w/palpy & rule w/padme, just as he later proposes to her. which means he not only sees jedi as part of the problem, he also sees the sith as just a means to an end- a third end, one which he intends to be neither jedi nor sith in character :glasses:
vt

stillakid
05-21-2005, 07:31 PM
stilla: "Palps retracts his statement saying instead that they will "figure it out together." What!? Well, that should have been Anakin's reaction"
-first, this hedging fits in perfectly with palpy's character; he could always say "i told you my Master figured out immortality, not me. but i did learn Some of it from him, which you'd never get from the jedi." vt

I don't buy it. Time is of the essence as we know from how full term those babies are just a day or two later. At this point in the story, Anakin will be nearly frantic in wanting a way to save her life, which admittedly plays into his uber quick turn to the darkside. So when Palps retracts his claim to know how to do it, Anakin should have had a sh**fit and laid Palps out right there and then. No two ways about it.

2-1B
05-22-2005, 12:47 AM
Palps doesn't retract his claim that he can help save Padme ! ! !

Soon afterward he tells Ani that after he kills the Separatists he will be strong enough to save her or something like that . . . the immortality thing is different. Anakin was worried about saving her in the moment and they could deal with that other junk later. lol

stillakid
05-22-2005, 01:02 AM
Palps doesn't retract his claim that he can help save Padme ! ! !

Soon afterward he tells Ani that after he kills the Separatists he will be strong enough to save her or something like that . . . the immortality thing is different. Anakin was worried about saving her in the moment and they could deal with that other junk later. lol

Granted, I've only seen this once, but I'm pretty sure that you're mischaracterizing the scenario here. You're trying to split Palpatine's "blackmail gift" into two separate things when it's only one.

What happens is that Anakin is afraid that Padme is going to die in childbirth. We know at the time of his turn to the darkside that she is 9 months in. So this is an immediate problem to find a solution to. Enter Palpatine with a promise to tell Anakin how to save her. He tells Anakin that a previous Sith learned how to extend life (or something like that) and that only through the darkside can it be done. This is the one and only thing that makes Anakin betray Mace. Palps is practically repeating this one and only promise as Mace is ready to cut his head off. Palps is going to give Anakin the secret that will save Padme's life.

Fast forward about 90 seconds and suddenly the story has changed. Now Palpatine doesn't really know how to do this, but suggests that with both of them practicing the dark arts they will figure it out together.

So pre-Mace's death, Palps claims to KNOW how to do it. Post Mace's death, Palps will "figure it out."

2-1B
05-22-2005, 01:13 AM
Sorry, I got back a little while ago from my 5th viewing and I made note of this. :)

The immortality thing is indeed separate because he puts that on the back burner but tells Vader to go to the Separatists. Then when Padme lands at Mustafar, Anakin tells her that with his new powers he can save her.

Palpatine obviously wants to live forever because he's a crusty old **** but I think Anakin was more concerned about the immediate future. Palps could get him so far but not to immortality yet. That can be worked on later.

I'm going back for numbers 6 and 7 tomorrow, I'll revisit this thread again tomorrow. :)

Darth Jax
05-22-2005, 01:57 PM
Uh, how much more obvious does George have to make it? :sur:

stillakid, while i enjoy reading your rants on the PT/OT and picking apart the movies line by line; this seems to be a about face for you. isn't your argument that the OT has superior storytelling because everything is explicitly spelled out onscreen? yet here you seem to be praising uncle georgie for leaving things vague and up to interpretation from the audience.

stillakid
05-22-2005, 06:40 PM
stillakid, while i enjoy reading your rants on the PT/OT and picking apart the movies line by line; this seems to be a about face for you. isn't your argument that the OT has superior storytelling because everything is explicitly spelled out onscreen? yet here you seem to be praising uncle georgie for leaving things vague and up to interpretation from the audience.

If that's what you've taken from my posts, then you've grossly misinterpreted my desires.

To begin with, you've taken that post of mine regarding "obvious" out of context. It was in response to this post:



So does anyone else get the feeling that Palpy killed his master in his sleep after learning all of his powers, then he used the dark side to create Anakin from the force?
That whole scene about the tragedy of Darth Plageious(sp?) led me to believe this.

Someone help me understand.

I responded the way I did because I felt that the scene was uber-obvious while being subtle. In short, I didn't want to come out and insult Bantha274 for being obtuse so I merely implied it in my own subtle way. :nerv:


However, being that you misinterpreted that post and seem to be a Prequel Defender, I'm not surprised in the least that you'd like the Prequels. Generally speaking, those who can't figure out the subtleties of what I'm saying don't have the ability to grasp the concept of a well-told story either. But that's a general assumption on my part that may or may not apply to you specifically. :)

But to finally actually address your initial concern, I'm not terribly interested in being brow-beaten by a filmmaker who wants me to know what's going on by showing every bit of minutia onscreen. But there is a difference between being subtle and being too subtle. For instance, we can figure out for ourselves that Vader learned of Luke's identity between IV and V without having actually had a scene showing that rammed down our throats. Kasdan wisely assumed that most of us were smart enough to figure it out on our own.

In contrast, this business about Baby Leia somehow remembering her mommie's beauty and her sadness from a 5 second gaze is a bit too subtle. It assumes that the audience will (want to) conclude something stupid like she "imprints" that memory until 20 odd years later. What a crock o' sh** that is. :rolleyes:

But some information we have to have placed onscreen lest the story doesn't advance. We need to see the crispy remains of Owen and Beru so that Luke's decision to go with Ben makes sense in every way. Had Lucas decided to merely suggest it or have Luke return and just tell us about it, his decision wouldn't have the resonance that it does.

So unlike what you're trying to imply about my critiques, it's not about leaving everything offscreen or puking everything onscreen. It's about carefully evaluating the events and the characters that are in the story and deciding which are necessary to actually show, which to imply, and which to leave out entirely. That's the skill of writing, one that Lucas clearly doesn't possess much of.

Darth Jax
05-24-2005, 12:15 AM
I responded the way I did because I felt that the scene was uber-obvious while being subtle. In short, I didn't want to come out and insult Bantha274 for being obtuse so I merely implied it in my own subtle way. :nerv:
i got that much from your post. i was attempting to make a funny, but as seems to be your style you took it as an attack on your opinions. i'm not sure subtlety has ever been your strong suit.



However, being that you misinterpreted that post and seem to be a Prequel Defender, I'm not surprised in the least that you'd like the Prequels. Generally speaking, those who can't figure out the subtleties of what I'm saying don't have the ability to grasp the concept of a well-told story either. But that's a general assumption on my part that may or may not apply to you specifically. :)
actually it doesn't quite apply to me. i prefer to look at it as a string of 6 movies and not as 2 separate trilogies. as stand alone movies only ESB is truly worthy of watching. i rewatched ANH recently and it certainly isn't as good as my memory of it is. after my second viewing of RotS today, i'll admit i have enjoyed it (despite some issues with continuity).

But to finally actually address your initial concern, I'm not terribly interested in being brow-beaten by a filmmaker who wants me to know what's going on by showing every bit of minutia onscreen.
i agree. TPM very easily could have been summarized in the opening crawl for AOTC.


So unlike what you're trying to imply about my critiques, it's not about leaving everything offscreen or puking everything onscreen. It's about carefully evaluating the events and the characters that are in the story and deciding which are necessary to actually show, which to imply, and which to leave out entirely. That's the skill of writing, one that Lucas clearly doesn't possess much of.
i wasn't attempting to imply anything about your critiques other than to suggest, in a way i thought was humorous, the apparent inconsistency. please now feel free to dissect my humble response line by line.

DarthAngel
05-24-2005, 01:16 AM
I think the seduction scene was played out rather well on all parts.

My feeling (and I could be wrong) is that the reason why Anakin became so robotic was due to what was happening with Palpy's voice. Palpy's voice goes through several different changes right after Anakin has aided in Mace's death, and through those subtle changes Palpy is able to get a strangle-hold on Anakin.

I am open to thoughts.

The Whills
05-24-2005, 07:36 PM
I think that those "noises" we happened to hear coming through palpatines voice were the passed spirits of dead sith lords.

Sith Lord 0498
05-24-2005, 09:48 PM
I think that those "noises" we happened to hear coming through palpatines voice were the passed spirits of dead sith lords.

I figured it was his vocal cords still recovering from the onslaught of his Sith lightning, but that theory jacks up the creepiness factor off the scales!!

Mad Slanted Powers
05-24-2005, 11:02 PM
Palpatine's seduction of Anakin in the chamber after the performance. There was some bizarre sexual undercurrent to that scene. Something along the lines of a perverted, powerful old man trying to ply a young kid. First, he played on his trust and feelings of loyalty, told him not to say anything to the grown ups, then he mentioned the dark side in passing without moral judgment, then finally asked the kid to put out, all while looking simply pathetic- "yes, I know I am awful, and you should rat me out..."

That scene just made my skin crawl. If the parallels I just mentioned were there on purpose (and I think they were), all I can say is that it was perfectly written and directed by GL, and expertly acted by McDiarmid. Evil, evil, evil- that scene sold me on how thoroughly rotten Palps was. Ugh- makes you want a cold shower.

This scene was one that bothered me the first time I saw it as well. Being a "prequel defender", this was quite disturbing. I too, thought it strange for Anakin to go from "What have I done?" to pledging himself to Palpatine in this robotic voice in mere seconds. However, on the second viewing, I thought the voice sounded less robotic, and more like someone who was struggling to do something he wasn't comfortable doing. The sexual component you bring up is an excellent example.

Also, if you take into consideration all the events building up to this, the change really isn't that sudden. Palpatine is a long time friend and mentor, so his words throughout the film have helped to turn Anakin against the Jedi. Seeing Mace try to kill Palpatine just helps to convince Anakin to believe what Palpatine had said about the Jedi. Once Mace is dead, he really has no choice. In his mind, the Jedi are now the enemy, and Palpatine is his only chance to save Padmé. After he kills the Jedi in the temple, he even tells Padmé that the Jedi have tried to assassinate the Chancellor and take over the Republic. So, in his mind, he is doing the right thing and defending the Republic. Also, as vulcantouch mentioned, he is going along with Palpatine for now in hopes that he will overthrow him and rule his new empire with Padmé.

vulcantouch
05-26-2005, 11:52 PM
-please, call me vt :kiss:

still: "we know from how full term those babies are just a day or two later"
-maybe We know it, but that don't mean He know it; besides, how often do you hear of a guy grasping the subtleties of his gal's physiology? on the contrary, a common wimminwhine is "men just don't Get us, emotionally Or physically" :stupid:

2-1B
12-27-2007, 09:35 PM
This is still one of my favorite scenes, I watched ROTS on DVD the other night and I get jazzed up for this segment of the film - the way Palps oooozes his sleaziness all over this part is great. Definitely one of my favorite moments of the movie.

When watching the other night, I remembered Jon had a thread (from back in the day) going on this topic but I didn't realize the last post would be within a week of the film's release!

It's funny that the thread was titled "the weird seduction scene" because I SWORE the title was "the creepy seduction scene." lol lol lol

Devo
12-27-2007, 10:38 PM
Considered on a standalone basis yeah that was one of the few decent scenes in the film with nothing that I felt screwed it up and made me hide my face in sweaty palms. McDiarmid deserved better overall.

2-1B
12-27-2007, 10:56 PM
On one hand we have the sexual undertones of Palpatine's seduction and on the other hand we have Devo's sweaty palms...Hmmmmmm. lol

jjreason
12-28-2007, 09:33 AM
The scene at the opera had distinct sexual undertones - if not sexual, reproductive anyhow. Those seemingly tiny, squiggly swimming things plunging into the big watery "ovary" time after time? Come on..... :)

TeeEye7
12-28-2007, 04:20 PM
I thought those were symbolic of dollar bills floating into Luca's bank account ;).

jjreason
12-28-2007, 04:24 PM
Errrr.... that's what I meant. What did you think I was on about? ;):D

Mr. JabbaJohnL
12-28-2007, 05:15 PM
The scene at the opera had distinct sexual undertones - if not sexual, reproductive anyhow. Those seemingly tiny, squiggly swimming things plunging into the big watery "ovary" time after time? Come on..... :)
It was symbolic of how Palpatine's "mon calamari dancers" were flowing into Shmi's "watery orbs," if you catch my drift.

El Chuxter
12-28-2007, 05:20 PM
The worst part was when Palpatine put his arm around Anakin and said, "Tell me, Ani, have you ever seen a Sith Lord naked?"

JediTricks
12-29-2007, 02:48 AM
Ani, do you like movies about gladiators?

jjreason
12-29-2007, 06:50 AM
"Anakin, there are certain things that go on between certain grown men that certain groups might find.... unnatural." :crazed:

2-1B
12-29-2007, 12:17 PM
The best (real) line in that scene is "They asked you to do something that made you feel...dishonest...didn't they?"

lol

stillakid
12-29-2007, 01:06 PM
OLD BEN
Come, let me get you something...


OLD BEN
Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough...


EMPEROR PALPATINE
Come, see for yourself, boy!


VADER
I've FELT him, my Master.


VADER
It's a presence I've not felt sincccceeee....


VADER
When I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the Master...


EMPEROR
He will come to you then you will bring him before me.


VADER
Your feelings for them are strong. Especially for... SISTER.


ACKBAR
We can't withstand firepower of THAT magnitude!


OLD BEN
You've taken your first step into a larger world.


:lipsrsealed::lipsrsealed:

jjreason
12-29-2007, 04:35 PM
The best (real) line in that scene is "They asked you to do something that made you feel...dishonest...didn't they?"

lol

Imagine if "dishonest" had been "dirty"! lol

Devo
12-29-2007, 07:02 PM
EMPEROR PALPATINE
Come, see for yourself, boy!

See also With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant!

and you want this...don't you...

Mad Slanted Powers
12-29-2007, 07:48 PM
The hate is swelling in you now. Wait, that's not hate! What are you doing?