PDA

View Full Version : why did Palps need Ani at all???



JediTricks
05-21-2005, 12:51 AM
Seriously, I don't get what role Ani played for Palpatine in the movie, Palpatine's manipulation of Anakin is exactly what brings Mace there so if he hadn't been tempting Ani he wouldn't be at risk of being killed by Mace (though I still think Palpy was toying with Mace to garner Ani's sympathy); Palps could have sent the troops in to mop up the Jedi Temple without Ani (since Ani barely does anything there but kill innocent children), or even nuked the temple from space; and Ani's role on Mustafar destroying the Separatist heads could have been done by just about anybody (or again, by siege). Then, at the end, Obi-Wan smokes Anakin and leaves him a burned husk, proving who the superior Force-user and saber-wielder was at that time, so beyond the reasonings of "gotta have an apprentice" and "because the OT says so", why did Palpatine need Anakin at all?

Beast
05-21-2005, 01:12 AM
Palpatine needed Mace to come after him. After all he needed proof that the Jedi Order was corrupt, and tried to murder him. That way he could be justified in ordering the Clones to destroy the Jedi. As they had turned on the Republic, and attempted to take control. And of course he was toying with Mace. The moment Anakin lops off Mace's arm, Palpy's poor weak melted face man act vanishes, and he fries Mace and shoots him out of his office. Anakin was a very important piece, but not the only one. Plus Palpatine recognized his potential. So corrupting him for to be his new apprentice was a healthy perk. And Anakin killed more than children, we see him slaughtering Jedi in the Jedi Temple Security Files when Obi-Wan examines them. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Kidhuman
05-21-2005, 01:17 AM
Because there must be two Sith, an apprentice and a master. Palps was without the apprentice.

jjreason
05-21-2005, 01:38 AM
Well, there might be a little more to it. I'm sure there were any number of thugs to fill the role.

Palpatine needed a specific apprentice at the time - the most important time for the Sith in however many thousands of years. He needed an apprentice capable of a number of things:

1. Intimidation. In order to rule via fear, you must be able to cause fear. Darth Vader (specifically in the suit) is more terrifying than Maul, to be sure, and much more terrifying than the elderly looking Tyranus.

2. Protection. Ruling via fear leads to rebellion, and the risk of attempts on one's life or way of life. Vader's amazing fighting and piloting skills would provide the finest (and most versatile) protection of any of the 3 apprentices.

2. Precognition. Palpatine can see the future through his usage of the force, and this has provided him with the advantage he has needed to manipulate things to his liking with such success. Having an apprentice capable of the same thing would provide for him a system of checks and balances if you will. Anakin had that ability. No mention of Dooku or Maul being able to do this.

3. A knowledge of his/her rightful place in the Sith hierarchy. I didn't get the feeling that Maul would ever be able to equal Palpatine's ability to scheme and create opportunities for the Sith. Tyranus, though able to scheme with the best of them - may have been TOO ambitious (either due to his age, his being accustomed to only the finest things in life or both) for Palpatine to be comfortable with. Vader provides Palpatine with an apprentice both incredibally intelligent and powerful, AND one that is young enough to be satisified with learning the ways of the dark side for long enough to suit Palpatine.

Ani fit the bill, so well in fact that I wonder if GLu was trying to suggest that Palpatine had learned the secret to manipulating the midichlorians in the manner he spoke of and had thus caused Ani's birth.

2-1B
05-21-2005, 01:51 AM
I don't feel that Anakin was created by a Sith, I think Palps was using that as bait by implying that if they work hard enough with the Force, they can keep people from dying.

Which, of course, they can't. Death is a part of life. Yoda did a great job of telling Anakin this, IMO, it's just that Anakin couldn't let go. Very much like what Yoda tells Luke about going off to save his friends at Cloud City. :)

darthvyn
05-21-2005, 12:51 PM
i'm actually pretty sure that palpatine WAS implying that he had manipulated the midichlorians. it was too much of a coincidence that he just "happened" to mention one of darth plagueis' abilities was the very thing that had created anakin.

death is a part of life, yes, but the dark side is unnatural and therefore not a part of life. i take the whole story of darth plagueis at face value. he may have very well been able to prolong life for those around him. we didn't hear the possible horrifying side-effects of this being done to them, but then again, why would the sith care about the side-effects. obivously darth plagueis wasn't concerned with the well being of those he "cared" about, he just didn't want to loose them, same as anakin.

it's a straight-away path to the dark side, attachment, possession: like caesar said, yoda illustrated this point perfectly. to be at peace you must let go of everything you fear of losing.

as for the actual topic at hand, i think jjr brough up every point and elaborated on them so well, that this thread should be closed.

THEED CLOSED

:crazed: :crazed: :crazed:

vulcantouch
05-21-2005, 01:08 PM
-the same reason he needed all his apprentices- the same reason jango needed zam: using stringers for certain tasks minimizes your risk :evil:

2-1B
05-22-2005, 12:02 AM
Vyncent, I disagree with you. :) Yes, I do certainly agree that Palps was implying that they "Created" Anakin that way, I'm just saying that he implied it to bait him some more.

Personally, I think Palps took this knowledge (hey, Qui-Gon and everybody else wasn't surprised at the thought of such a conception so Palps knows, too) and try to pass it off as real.

Tonight I just read that the Making Of book says that Palps DID do this to make Anakin but you know what, it's not there on screen, they kept it intentionally vague, so Iget to make up my own mind about it. :crazed:

stillakid
05-22-2005, 12:13 AM
Tonight I just read that the Making Of book says that Palps DID do this to make Anakin but you know what, it's not there on screen, they kept it intentionally vague, so Iget to make up my own mind about it. :crazed:

I've read more about this too and I find the suggestion to be categorically ridiculous that Palps or anybody else intentionally "created" Anakin. Why? Because of the absurd Rube Goldbergian machination that it took to get Anakin involved in the story in the first place. Lucas Apologists can claim all they want that Palpatine was planning and engineering everything that took place, but even Palps was surprised that the Queen got away in TPM. For him to have engineered Anakin and planned for him to get involved in the Jedi Order would have meant that he would have had to know that the Queen's ship would illogically head straight for the Federation blockade, luckily get saved by an R2 unit after having it's hyperdrive knocked out, and that the ship's pilot would decide to make a beeline for Tatooine in the vague hopes of finding the one and only used parts dealer who carried the hyperdrive replacement. And then, of course, Palps would have had to know that Watto wouldn't sell the parts and that our heroes would have to meet and use Anakin Skywalker to win the money for the parts for the ship...and free him from slavery. Can't forget that.

It's so convoluted that to suggest that a Sith engineered any of it is really stretching the limits of rationalization.


To the topic question at hand, I agree that Palps needed a certain amount of distance to create the illusion that he wasn't a bad guy. And this is why I have always maintained that Palps wasn't a Force user in the first place, at least not until ROTJ. He needed Force users to do his dirty work for him because, frankly, he didn't have to use the Force himself to do anything up to the point of taking over. It just wasn't necessary. He used Maul as brute force. He used Dooku as a political manipulator. And he used Anakin to destroy the Jedi from within, or something like that.

But I'll think about this question some more....

darthvyn
05-22-2005, 07:11 AM
Lucas Apologists can claim all they want that Palpatine was planning and engineering everything that took place, but even Palps was surprised that the Queen got away in TPM. For him to have engineered Anakin and planned for him to get involved in the Jedi Order would have meant that he would have had to know that the Queen's ship would illogically head straight for the Federation blockade, luckily get saved by an R2 unit after having it's hyperdrive knocked out, and that the ship's pilot would decide to make a beeline for Tatooine in the vague hopes of finding the one and only used parts dealer who carried the hyperdrive replacement. And then, of course, Palps would have had to know that Watto wouldn't sell the parts and that our heroes would have to meet and use Anakin Skywalker to win the money for the parts for the ship...and free him from slavery. Can't forget that.

It's so convoluted that to suggest that a Sith engineered any of it is really stretching the limits of rationalization.

all this is assuming his "surprise" was genuine. i feel that he was putting on a show for the neimoidians. he knew that she was going to do. after all, he needed her at the senate to vote out valorum. to me, palpatine either influenced or had a direct hand in everything that happened in the prequel trilogy. i go so far as to say he made the tusken raiders go after anakin's mother. there was no reason or rationale that made them do it - they just like to kidnap and torture people?

in terms of anakin and the quote about the midi's being a ploy to bait him, does anakin know of his immaculate conception? i'm not so sure. qui-gon told him about the midis, but never about the fact that he believed he was created by them. he doesn't seem to know in tPM or AOtC... and why would it sway him, anyway? like "oh, i guess i was created by the dark side, so i should join the dark side..." i dont' buy that.

meditate on this, i will...

Sith Lord 0498
05-22-2005, 09:50 AM
all this is assuming his "surprise" was genuine. i feel that he was putting on a show for the neimoidians. he knew that she was going to do. after all, he needed her at the senate to vote out valorum. to me, palpatine either influenced or had a direct hand in everything that happened in the prequel trilogy. i go so far as to say he made the tusken raiders go after anakin's mother. there was no reason or rationale that made them do it - they just like to kidnap and torture people?

in terms of anakin and the quote about the midi's being a ploy to bait him, does anakin know of his immaculate conception? i'm not so sure. qui-gon told him about the midis, but never about the fact that he believed he was created by them. he doesn't seem to know in tPM or AOtC... and why would it sway him, anyway? like "oh, i guess i was created by the dark side, so i should join the dark side..." i dont' buy that.

meditate on this, i will...

Qui-Gon never said anything about the immaculate conception to Anakin, but even he said in front of Anakin that "He is the chosen one. You must see it." Now if I were Anakin, I'd like very much to know about that prophecy. He could've learned it that way.

It is possible that Palpatine or Plagueis created Anakin. However, there doesn't have to be some statistically-improbable set of events that Palpatine was planning for. Watching all six films, I've concluded that Palpatine has three important characteristics:

1) He is unswervingly patient and careful.

2) He is a master strategist.

And this is the one that's relevant to the issue of Anakin...

3) He is a master opportunist, who can take an unexpected circumstance and twist it to suit his needs.

Remember, Palpatine even admits this characteristic in Episode I: "This is an unexpected move for her. It's too aggressive." and then in his next scene that "This could work to our advantage."

It's entirely possible that Anakin was never part of Sidious' original plan. He may have been planning to complete his takeover and then seek out Anakin to turn him into a Sith. Or once he was Supreme Chancellor and able to assign missions to the Jedi, he would've orchestrated a run-in with Anakin. The fact that it happened earlier than expected just meant that Palpatine took a different route than originally planned.

good shot jansen
05-22-2005, 06:18 PM
in keeping with what we know, there are always two, no more, no less. it is important for palpatine to have a apprentice who he keeps in check, to insure that what he did to his master plagerous. (where oh where do the sith get these great names, i know it ain't from emily posts baby naming book). does not happen to him.

anyway, i think that it's pretty obvious that palpatine did in fact force the creation of anakin through the midichloians, (wow, an actual fairly decent tie-in from within the prequels!), i also believe that palpatine forsaw anakin losing the remainder of his limbs during the battle with obi-wan. this would insure that anakin would serve as sidious's required apprentice for a long time, while also helping keep in check, anakin's ability to get too strong in the dark force and try and kill palapatine, and take over as the dark lord. I think that dooku's downfall was directly related to his using force lightning in aotc, palapatine saw that dooku was becoming quite strong in the dark force, and would soon be a threat to him. anakin, missing all his limbs, and being mostly machine, and not man, limits his abilities in acquring dark force attributes such as the force lightning, thus making him a very attractive apprentice.

anyway, just my take on it

JediTricks
05-22-2005, 08:02 PM
1. Intimidation. In order to rule via fear, you must be able to cause fear. Darth Vader (specifically in the suit) is more terrifying than Maul, to be sure, and much more terrifying than the elderly looking Tyranus.What's so intimidating about Anakin Skywalker? Ooh, he has a scar near his eye, big deal, he still looks like he's the coverboy for Teen People magazine (which in fact, this month, he is ;)). Palpatine didn't bring Ani into the fold wearing armor, just his Jedi outfit.


2. Protection. Ruling via fear leads to rebellion, and the risk of attempts on one's life or way of life. Vader's amazing fighting and piloting skills would provide the finest (and most versatile) protection of any of the 3 apprentices. I would buy this a lot more if Anakin hadn't gotten ginzued by Obi-Wan, why rebuild a failure this time when the previous model was proven to be far more effective in the first place?


2. Precognition. Palpatine can see the future through his usage of the force, and this has provided him with the advantage he has needed to manipulate things to his liking with such success. Having an apprentice capable of the same thing would provide for him a system of checks and balances if you will. Anakin had that ability. No mention of Dooku or Maul being able to do this. Number 2 twice huh? ;) All Jedi have some level of precognition according to Yoda, through the Force you will see the past and the future. Of course, this turns out to be a load of hogwash in ROTS since every single Jedi gets 100% blindsided by Order 66.


3. A knowledge of his/her rightful place in the Sith hierarchy. I didn't get the feeling that Maul would ever be able to equal Palpatine's ability to scheme and create opportunities for the Sith. Tyranus, though able to scheme with the best of them - may have been TOO ambitious (either due to his age, his being accustomed to only the finest things in life or both) for Palpatine to be comfortable with. Vader provides Palpatine with an apprentice both incredibally intelligent and powerful, AND one that is young enough to be satisified with learning the ways of the dark side for long enough to suit Palpatine. Sidious invested 20 years in Maul, while we weren't given a lot of scenes of the guy to suggest to us that he was to be the guy who took his place in Sidious's Sith heirarchy, we have to believe it was since nothing actually contradicts this in Ep 1. As for Tyranus, well, perhaps you're right, I saw nothing of the sort to suggest he was too ambitious for Sidious, but if that's the case then I guess Sidious is an idiot since Vader shows himself to be more ambitious and more effective in that regard.


that I wonder if GLu was trying to suggest that Palpatine had learned the secret to manipulating the midichlorians in the manner he spoke of and had thus caused Ani's birth. I had the same thought, and felt it'd really be awful if it were true because then Palpatine would have been the one creating his own self-fulfilling prophecy (my original theory was Qui-Gon did that, which had the benefit of not fulfilling a prophecy that was meant to warn of Qui-Gon's death, unlike the Palpatine theory).



-the same reason he needed all his apprentices- the same reason jango needed zam: using stringers for certain tasks minimizes your risk Ok, he needed a sucker and a fool to fill the role of enforcer, thug, not that we saw any evidence of actually needing this in the film, but I'll accept that... still, what made Anakin fill this role more than anybody else, and what made it worth Palpatine's time to salvage Anakin after he was defeated? Plus, Palpatine is a Sith, the Jedi are all but extinct now, their fire has gone out of the universe, he could pretty much use anybody as a vessel for his thug needs, and since Palps is talking about living forever, wouldn't an apprentice just be a risk that they'd do to him what he did to his master?



Tonight I just read that the Making Of book says that Palps DID do this to make Anakin but you know what, it's not there on screen, they kept it intentionally vague, so Iget to make up my own mind about it. :crazed: Yeah, a friend told me about that, said the book said Palpatine was older than Yoda too, 1,000 years old. Both of which make my stomach turn so I'm leaving them on the cutting room floor of my mind. ;)



I've read more about this too and I find the suggestion to be categorically ridiculous that Palps or anybody else intentionally "created" Anakin. Why? Because of the absurd Rube Goldbergian machination that it took to get Anakin involved in the story in the first place. Lucas Apologists can claim all they want that Palpatine was planning and engineering everything that took place, but even Palps was surprised that the Queen got away in TPM. For him to have engineered Anakin and planned for him to get involved in the Jedi Order would have meant that he would have had to know that the Queen's ship would illogically head straight for the Federation blockade... It's so convoluted that to suggest that a Sith engineered any of it is really stretching the limits of rationalization. Not to get too far off topic with all that Stilla, and I do feel your point and agree, but perhaps Sidious was planning on picking up Ani on his own later, though I seem to remember EU saying he raised Maul from a baby so that doesn't make that much sense. Ok, let's say Sidious does this, to what end? Does he not know of the prophecy that says the boy will end up destroying the Sith? Seems as counter-productive as one can get, creating the very instrument of one's destruction. And what of having 2 OTHER apprentices in the meantime, what's the point of that beyond saber-fodder?




in keeping with what we know, there are always two, no more, no less. it is important for palpatine to have a apprentice who he keeps in check, to insure that what he did to his master plagerous. (where oh where do the sith get these great names, i know it ain't from emily posts baby naming book). does not happen to him. "Plagueis", I believe, and what a name. :p Anyway, this makes sense, especially if you take the "Palpatine is 1,000 years old and that is when he killed Plagueis and began the 1,000-year Sith silence" part into account, but um... well... Palpatine fails miserably in the goal of having an apprentice he can keep under his boot considering the end of ROTJ. It seems like Maul would have been a much better choice in this regard, as he was purely angry at the Jedi and had no countered feelings unlike Vader, and followed Palpatine's orders quite well (again, until Obi-Wan killed him, makes you wonder why Palpatine keeps taking on apprentices that lose to Obi-Wan Kenobi).


i also believe that palpatine forsaw anakin losing the remainder of his limbs during the battle with obi-wan. this would insure that anakin would serve as sidious's required apprentice for a long time, while also helping keep in check, anakin's ability to get too strong in the dark force and try and kill palapatine, and take over as the dark lord. Ok, now here's a path I cannot follow you down, Palpatine foresaw the boy losing his limbs yet he couldn't see that Vader, not Luke, would be his downfall? At best it's a MAYBE but it's pure speculation as well, answering the question with speculation based on a foundation of MORE speculation is not sound evidence.


I think that dooku's downfall was directly related to his using force lightning in aotc, palapatine saw that dooku was becoming quite strong in the dark force, and would soon be a threat to him. How do you figure? Dooku's Force lightning was easily blocked by Yoda while Palpatine's was so much stronger that Yoda was thrown across the room.

jjreason
05-23-2005, 02:06 AM
Number 2 twice huh? ;)

Yes, and I thought of one more idea to go along with those 2s.......

2 (for variety). Credibility. Anakin is a very recognizable figure galactically by this point of the Clone Wars. He's known as fearless and completely trustworthy - he and Obi Wan are the "go to" guys of the Republic, according to the novellization.

Having Anakin declare his allegiance to (not to mention forsaking his Knighthood for) your cause would immediately add believability to Palpatine's story that the Jedi have gone bad and are trying to kill him and take control. Anakin couldn't possibly be evil, could he? After all the good he'd done for the Republic during the war?

The other facet of this is that the credibility Palpatine gains by having Anakin at his side is the exact same credibility that the Jedi Order loses by having him leave. All the sudden, Palpatine's talk of the Jedi attempting to overthrow the government becomes a lot more plausible.

MaquisWarrior
05-23-2005, 02:26 AM
Because well we 'll let Palpy sing it to Ani
ana one ana two ana three:
"You make me feel so young....."

good shot jansen
05-23-2005, 07:26 AM
How do you figure? Dooku's Force lightning was easily blocked by Yoda while Palpatine's was so much stronger that Yoda was thrown across the room.

until dooku released his blue beams of death in atack of the clones, we thought only palpatine had that dark force ability. maul certainly never showed any ability of being able to do this. it actually caught me a bit by suprise that dooku could do this particular parlour trick.

it was well implied that dooku had been studying the ways of the sith prior to sideous selecting him as his apprentice, so i don't think that palapatine trained dooku in this particular use of dark side powers. afterall, palpatines ability to wield this kind of power is shown to be his deadliest and most terrifying use of the dark side of the force. it is in fact his own beams being re-directed at him by vader in return of the jedi that leads to his death.

it would make sense that upon dooku revealing that he had indeed acquired this ability, that sideous would now need to keep dooku at arms length to avoid being given a permanent dose of sominex in his sleep just as sideous had done to *plagueis*. (thanx for the correction on the name).

dooku obviously craved power, the same as palpatine, while anakin's slide to the dark side was primarily for the purpose of saving the people he loved from death. (this is the good still in him), he did not become a sith for the purpose of power. in fact as i recall, vader was even subservient to tarkin in a new hope. dooku wasn't subservient to anyone in attack of the clones.


How do you figure? Dooku's Force lightning was easily blocked by Yoda while Palpatine's was so much stronger that Yoda was thrown across the room.

as this was a power that dooku had acquired through his own extra credit studying, and not through instruction being given by his mentor, he had yet to become proficient utilizing it, and as such was not as strong in the dark force as palpatine's, (this would aslo explain why his face did not become as disfigured as palpatines by using this dark force ability.................i guess :ermm: ), but if i was a paranoid meglomaniacal power hungry fanatic like palpatine, as soon as it became apparent that my underling was using abilities that at some future time could be used in putting me six feet under, i would definately put a plan in to action that would lead to the threat being removed for good.


Ok, now here's a path I cannot follow you down, Palpatine foresaw the boy losing his limbs yet he couldn't see that Vader, not Luke, would be his downfall? At best it's a MAYBE but it's pure speculation as well, answering the question with speculation based on a foundation of MORE speculation is not sound evidence.

anakin has already lost a limb to dooku, if sideous had in fact been controlling all events that eventually led to him taking over the galaxy, either he had forseen anakin losing limbs like leaves from a tree, orrrrrrrrrrrr, upon anakin losing his arm to dooku, palpatine would have studied and weighed the pros and cons of his prized future apprentice being limbless. it may have been during this evaluation period where palpatine realised that with anakin in a disfigured state withiut his limbs, (arms and legs), he would be less of a threat over time.

i know this is all speculation, but since george decided to leave us with a ton of questions, that's all i gots to offer. i'm not trying to come up with an answer, just throwing out some possible plausible ideas for discussion.

JON9000
05-23-2005, 09:46 AM
Palpatine needed Mace to come after him. After all he needed proof that the Jedi Order was corrupt, and tried to murder him. That way he could be justified in ordering the Clones to destroy the Jedi. As they had turned on the Republic, and attempted to take control.
I agree with this statement, but I would like to add that if Anakin was going to develop into a Jedi even more powerful than Yoda or Mace (both of whom gave him all he could handle), Palpy couldn't afford to not have him on his own team. He didn't want Anakin coming after him.

I also think, however, that Palps was undone by his own greed. It doesn't make a great deal of sense to keep getting a new apprentice more powerful than the last, especially when they get to Vader/Luke level, if the Sith wind up trying to kill each other. Look what happened- it is as though Palpy didn't really learn the lesson of Plagueius, or he was supremely overconfident in the end.

jlw
05-23-2005, 05:25 PM
My God, my head is spinning after reading these posts! Palps is the father of Anakin?! That thought never even came to my mind until I read these posts. I think you guys are reading waaaayy too much into the dialogue between Palps and Anakin.

Just taking things at face value: Palps is a Sith Lord who uses the Dark Side of the Force, so obviously he knows about midi-chlorians. It is a possiblity that the fact that some are more attuned to the Force than others (because of there midi-chlorian count) is common knowledge in the Prequels, when Jedi are a common thing. I never even associated Palps mentioning of midi-chlorian to the "birth" of Anakin. To me, that's just stretching it too much.

And the reason why I think Palps took Anakin as his apprentice is because he feared him. Surely Palps knew of this "prophecy" of a Chosen One who would put an end to the Sith and bring balance to the Force. Well, if I knew that there was a possiblilty that this little kid from Tatooine would later grow up to kick my tail, I'd start befriending him in the beginning too, so I could deceive him into becoming a Sith.

But the whole Papls created Anakin thing, to me, just seems like a wasted debate. Palps created Anakin to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?? Just doesn't make sense to me.

Sith Lord 0498
05-23-2005, 06:44 PM
My God, my head is spinning after reading these posts! Palps is the father of Anakin?! That thought never even came to my mind until I read these posts. I think you guys are reading waaaayy too much into the dialogue between Palps and Anakin.

Just taking things at face value: Palps is a Sith Lord who uses the Dark Side of the Force, so obviously he knows about midi-chlorians. It is a possiblity that the fact that some are more attuned to the Force than others (because of there midi-chlorian count) is common knowledge in the Prequels, when Jedi are a common thing. I never even associated Palps mentioning of midi-chlorian to the "birth" of Anakin. To me, that's just stretching it too much.

And the reason why I think Palps took Anakin as his apprentice is because he feared him. Surely Palps knew of this "prophecy" of a Chosen One who would put an end to the Sith and bring balance to the Force. Well, if I knew that there was a possiblilty that this little kid from Tatooine would later grow up to kick my tail, I'd start befriending him in the beginning too, so I could deceive him into becoming a Sith.

But the whole Papls created Anakin thing, to me, just seems like a wasted debate. Palps created Anakin to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?? Just doesn't make sense to me.

According to excerpts from the original draft of ROTS (which is given in The Making of ROTS), there was a sequence between Darth Sidious and Anakin where Sidious flat out tells Anakin that he influenced the midichlorians to create Anakin. It's not that we're reading too deeply into the dialogue in the film--we're connecting it to what Lucas originally intended.

As for why Sidious would create the "Chosen One destined to destroy the Sith", he could very well have done it in order to twist the prophecy to own ends.

El Chuxter
05-23-2005, 06:44 PM
There's a line in the Visual Dictionary that says Anakin will never fully be what Palpatine intended him to be, since he's not entirely there after Mustafar. Of course, it doesn't say exactly what it is that Palpatine wanted. :confused:

Sith Lord 0498
05-23-2005, 06:55 PM
There's a line in the Visual Dictionary that says Anakin will never fully be what Palpatine intended him to be, since he's not entirely there after Mustafar. Of course, it doesn't say exactly what it is that Palpatine wanted. :confused:

The ability to use the Force is directly related to the amount of midichlorians within one's body. Therefore, a person with all their original body tissue is more powerful than one without. Because Anakin lost so much of himself, his ability to tap into the Force has diminished. While still extremely powerful in the Force, Darth Vader as a machine is still only a shadow of what Darth Vader the human could have been. Rather than becoming the most powerful Sith in history by a wide margin, Vader is something else than that, crushing what Sidious had hoped to have.

jjreason
05-23-2005, 07:05 PM
I think Palpatine would have preferred Ani "as was". There's also a passage in the VisDic (I believe) that says Vader is never able to create force lightning because of his mechanical arms/hands. Would it be fair to speculate that some of the other more "in depth" dark side powers might require physical touch to perform? Palpatine wanted an apprentice that he would be able to pass everything along to, and Vader just isn't able to do some things with the prosthetics.

Sith Lord 0498
05-23-2005, 07:50 PM
I think Palpatine would have preferred Ani "as was". There's also a passage in the VisDic (I believe) that says Vader is never able to create force lightning because of his mechanical arms/hands. Would it be fair to speculate that some of the other more "in depth" dark side powers might require physical touch to perform? Palpatine wanted an apprentice that he would be able to pass everything along to, and Vader just isn't able to do some things with the prosthetics.

I would say that's a very fair assessment. It seems that Sidious was ultimately concerned with two things: 1) creating a Sith-ruled Empire that would stand the test of time and 2) grooming an apprentice that would become the greatest Sith of all time.

It's very strange. Until now, Palpatine/Sidious had been portrayed as a scheming Sith lord/politician that sought ultimate power. Now, we see a side of him that is devoted to maximizing and sustaining the Sith Order. He's trying to leave behind a grand legacy that will be remember after he dies.

Slicker
05-23-2005, 07:53 PM
Sounds almost as if Palpy was creating a thousand year Reich. Hmmmm....

Sith Lord 0498
05-23-2005, 08:32 PM
Sounds almost as if Palpy was creating a thousand year Reich. Hmmmm....

Exactly. And doesn't he remind you of someone like Hitler when he's declaring the creation of the Empire??? That's the first person that pops into my mind every time I see that scene.

JediTricks
05-24-2005, 05:24 AM
2 (for variety). Credibility. Anakin is a very recognizable figure galactically by this point of the Clone Wars. He's known as fearless and completely trustworthy - he and Obi Wan are the "go to" guys of the Republic, according to the novellization.

Having Anakin declare his allegiance to (not to mention forsaking his Knighthood for) your cause would immediately add believability to Palpatine's story that the Jedi have gone bad and are trying to kill him and take control. Anakin couldn't possibly be evil, could he? After all the good he'd done for the Republic during the war?

The other facet of this is that the credibility Palpatine gains by having Anakin at his side is the exact same credibility that the Jedi Order loses by having him leave. All the sudden, Palpatine's talk of the Jedi attempting to overthrow the government becomes a lot more plausible.Ok, I might buy this for why he initially takes him on, though the movie totally failed to convey that I think, but once Anakin is charred to a crisp and encased in black armor from head to toe, the theory no longer holds. If credibility, his face sells the evil to the masses, is supposed the reason for taking him on in the first place, why repair him at all when he's no longer recognizable?



until dooku released his blue beams of death in atack of the clones, we thought only palpatine had that dark force ability. maul certainly never showed any ability of being able to do this. it actually caught me a bit by suprise that dooku could do this particular parlour trick. I see where you're going with this, but it never seemed that odd to me that other Force users would have this power, I just assumed Maul never cared for the trick or didn't have time to use it.


it was well implied that dooku had been studying the ways of the sith prior to sideous selecting him as his apprentice It was? Not to me, not even a little. AOTC basically said to me "Dooku was good, then one day he left the Jedi and was bad".


it may have been during this evaluation period where palpatine realised that with anakin in a disfigured state withiut his limbs, (arms and legs), he would be less of a threat over time. Dunno, seems like Vader took Palps out pretty easy at the end, picked him up and threw him down the hole, disfiguration didn't seem to matter there. I suppose if Palps could only see the possibility of Vader doing this to usurp Palpatine's power, perhaps maybe but there's a lot of speculation leading us to this road.




Palpatine needed Mace to come after him. After all he needed proof that the Jedi Order was corrupt, and tried to murder him. That way he could be justified in ordering the Clones to destroy the Jedi. As they had turned on the Republic, and attempted to take control. I agree with this statement, but I would like to add that if Anakin was going to develop into a Jedi even more powerful than Yoda or Mace (both of whom gave him all he could handle), Palpy couldn't afford to not have him on his own team. He didn't want Anakin coming after him. First off, what is this "Palps needs proof" stuff? We never saw Palps actually present any proof of Mace's attack to anybody, we never saw Palps convince the Senate and the masses that the Jedi went rogue, the guy is already lying about the motivation of the Jedi, why not just lie and say it happened that way? Secondly, if Palps is so concerned with taking the best Jedi for his home team, why take the one who got carved into bite-size pieces by Obi-Wan Kenobi?



And the reason why I think Palps took Anakin as his apprentice is because he feared him. Surely Palps knew of this "prophecy" of a Chosen One who would put an end to the Sith and bring balance to the Force. Well, if I knew that there was a possiblilty that this little kid from Tatooine would later grow up to kick my tail, I'd start befriending him in the beginning too, so I could deceive him into becoming a Sith. Funny, if I were Palpatine with so much power and influence both as Chancellor and Darth Sidious, I'd simply have the kid killed before he could be any sort of threat. Why waste time with the middle man if you fear the kid? Just have him splashed "by accident" by some troopers, put a few suckers in between you and the hit, plausible deniability which Palpatine seems to excel at, no worries.


But the whole Papls created Anakin thing, to me, just seems like a wasted debate. Palps created Anakin to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?? Just doesn't make sense to me. Hey, don't blame me, blame Lucas, it was his cruddy idea.




There's a line in the Visual Dictionary that says Anakin will never fully be what Palpatine intended him to be, since he's not entirely there after Mustafar. Of course, it doesn't say exactly what it is that Palpatine wanted. :confused: The ability to use the Force is directly related to the amount of midichlorians within one's body. Therefore, a person with all their original body tissue is more powerful than one without. Because Anakin lost so much of himself, his ability to tap into the Force has diminished. While still extremely powerful in the Force, Darth Vader as a machine is still only a shadow of what Darth Vader the human could have been. Rather than becoming the most powerful Sith in history by a wide margin, Vader is something else than that, crushing what Sidious had hoped to have. Therein lies the rub, I suppose. But it only supports my claim, if Vader isn't what Palps wanted after the failure at Mustafar, why bother putting him back together at all?



I would say that's a very fair assessment. It seems that Sidious was ultimately concerned with two things: 1) creating a Sith-ruled Empire that would stand the test of time and 2) grooming an apprentice that would become the greatest Sith of all time. Well, Sidious seemed to be doing fine on point 1 without Anakin, and on point 2 why would a Sith who is planning to live forever want or need someone to succeed him?

Slicker
05-24-2005, 05:32 AM
I'm jumping in this late but it'll give more fodder to use.

The one reason that Palpy keeps Ani around is to fill the vacant spot left when Dooku was killed. The only reason Palps had Ani kill Dooku is because he could've been a stronger and more able apprentice (if he hadn't been fried) but when Ani eventually gets severed and burned there's no one else suitable to fill the vacancy or turn to the dark side (remember, Ani killed most of the Jedi with help from the Clones) so the only real alternative was to fix Ani up as best he could and to teach him as much as the suit and his physical abilities would permit.

Sith Lord 0498
05-24-2005, 05:38 AM
I'm jumping in this late but it'll give more fodder to use.

The one reason that Palpy keeps Ani around is to fill the vacant spot left when Dooku was killed. The only reason Palps had Ani kill Dooku is because he could've been a stronger and more able apprentice (if he hadn't been fried) but when Ani eventually gets severed and burned there's no one else suitable to fill the vacancy or turn to the dark side (remember, Ani killed most of the Jedi with help from the Clones) so the only real alternative was to fix Ani up as best he could and to teach him as much as the suit and his physical abilities would permit.

Very true. It adds credibility to how fast Palpatine is willing to dispose of Vader in exchange for Luke.

JediTricks
05-24-2005, 05:47 AM
so the only real alternative was to fix Ani up as best he could and to teach him as much as the suit and his physical abilities would permit.Um, what about the alternative of NOT having an apprentice at that time? I know "only 2 there are, a master and an apprentice", but it's not like the Jedi seemed to be that much on the ball in terms of Sith knowledge anyway.

Slicker
05-24-2005, 06:00 AM
Yes but maybe Palps has his reasoning for following the always 2 rule. He may not want the Sith to really become extinct and he may see his life coming to an end (albeit 30 years later) and wants to impart on Vader all of his knowledge and let him develop these skills to the point that when Palpy dies Vader can find and train an apprentice to be as strong if not stronger. The real reason for the Sith as I see it is strictly there survival.

jlw
05-24-2005, 12:13 PM
Man, if Lucas' original plan for ROTS script was to make Palpatine the creator of Anakin, then that has got to be the worste script plot I have ever heard of. I'd have to agree with JT on a lot of points. And JT, you make a good point about just killing the kid. I don't know man, now that you bring it up; the whole Prequel "Anakin to the Dark Side" really wasn't that well researched, except to tie into the first Trilogy. And I guess it all falls back to Lucas' lame reasoning in TPM "always two there are, a Master and an Apprentice." I don't know; I give --- "UNCLE"

2-1B
05-24-2005, 01:02 PM
In 6 years nobody has ever given me a good explanation as to why the Sith would be concerned with the preservation of their Order . . . they think inwards, of greed, so if Palps wasn't gonna rule then why the hell would he want Darth Maul to rule ?

JimJamBonds
05-24-2005, 03:11 PM
Ceasar,

I think its all about timing and waiting for the right moment. There are all kinds of Sith that would have never gotten close to show their power. Palps was in the right place at the right time. What if something would have happened to Palps or maybe he fails but at least there is somebody there to "pick up the batton" and keep on going. Sure they think inward but they still hate the Jedi, I'd say each of them would like to "be the man" but if Sith #1 can't/couldn't at least #2 will continue on and perhaps he/she will do to the Jedi that their master couldn't.

Jim Jam

2-1B
05-25-2005, 12:14 AM
Kind of like McCallum and Lucas ? lol

I was thinking about this tonight and I guess I wasn't really thinking of their arrogance, I mean even though Palps KNOWS that he should be a target for another greedy Sith, his arrogance (or "overconfidence" as Luke calls it) prevents him from believing he can be toppled.

JimJamBonds
05-25-2005, 12:26 AM
I think the thing that shocked Palpers so much was that it was "one of his kind" that got him. Well that and perhaps that he's crotchety old man.

Jim Jam

basschick
05-25-2005, 03:57 AM
i think it would have been nice if lucas could have simply TOLD us why palpatine needed ani. then we wouldn't be speculating.

maybe he didn't really need him at all. he was handy.

Slicker
05-25-2005, 05:49 AM
Just thinking while browsing the forums. Perhaps Palps wanted Anakin as the face of the Sith so he could stay in the background and play the political side a bit more. Think about it. How many people KNOW that Palps is a Sith: Mace (dead), Kit Fisto (dead), Saesaee Tiin (dead), Agen Kolar (dead), Ben (hiding), Yoda (hiding), and the only real threat Bail (I would assume Yoda told him). So Palps can just act as Emperor and have Vader be the "only" Sith Lord.

jjreason
05-25-2005, 01:17 PM
Um, what about the alternative of NOT having an apprentice at that time? I know "only 2 there are, a master and an apprentice", but it's not like the Jedi seemed to be that much on the ball in terms of Sith knowledge anyway.

JT, I think I'm replying to a different quote of yours here - they bit about why bother fixing Anakin at all (sorry, laziness precluded me from going back and finding the right one) :).

It's investment vs. payoff at that point. IF Palpatine really did influence the midichorians to create Ani, and then expended all that time and effort in grooming him to flip, then finally flipping him - he's invested a whack of time and effort. Anakin has shown him that his ability to pay back the investment is incredible - his only failure was the loss to Obi Wan on Mustafar. Palpatine can look at that loss and declare it circumstantial.... Obi Wan was the luckier of the two and won the race to the higher ground on the bank. It could have just as easily gone the other way.

Compared to the time and effort he's put with Vader at that point, where's the risk in building him back as a cyborg and seeing what he can do? The hard part (flipping him) has been done, and money is no object. If Vader turns out to be a failure as a desciple in his rebuilt form, you bump him off and start from scratch. As it turned out, Vader did very well for Palpatine, up until that "little incident" on the 2nd Death Star. :D

JimJamBonds
05-25-2005, 02:11 PM
Just thinking while browsing the forums. Perhaps Palps wanted Anakin as the face of the Sith so he could stay in the background and play the political side a bit more. Think about it. How many people KNOW that Palps is a Sith: Mace (dead), Kit Fisto (dead), Saesaee Tiin (dead), Agen Kolar (dead), Ben (hiding), Yoda (hiding), and the only real threat Bail (I would assume Yoda told him). So Palps can just act as Emperor and have Vader be the "only" Sith Lord.

I think you may be onto something here Slicker there are few that know Palps is the Sith Lord. Dooko was the Sith that was "out front" and did much of the dirty work.......or at least the dirty work that was known ;). Dooko was the point man for the systems that were breaking away and was the counterpoint to Palps and the Senate. With Dooko out of the picture he doesn't need a political mastermind anymore since his system is in place what, is needed is an enforcer to keep things in place. Palps can still be the silent Sith while Vader is the known bad guy. Although I think things changed when Vader needed to get the new set of sticks and the new wing.

Jim Jam

JediTricks
05-26-2005, 02:50 AM
First off, it's not actually in the film so we don't know Palps created Anakin.

Second, Anakin has completed pretty much everything Palps needs from him before he's cut down by Obi-Wan, I still don't get the real point of this.

His defeat at Obi-Wan's hand isn't just a small measure, if not for the stupidity and/or cruelty of Kenobi in leaving Anakin alive, Anakin would most certainly be 100% dead, he is barely alive by the time Palps gets there and little more than a useless, screaming, charred torso. Anakin's action that got him defeated is still questionable in my mind, he could have lept to lower ground instead of trying to go over Obi-Wan's head, or just gone somewhere else and rebounded like he did in the elevator shaft in the beginning, instead he leaps right into Obi-Wan's path without even DEFENDING himself - he could have lept into it with his saber as a block.

In 12 years or so, Palpatine has gone through 3 Sith apprentices, not including Grievous who was a semi-apprentice to him and Dooku I think, and Anakin is dispatched just as badly as Maul was, both by the same Jedi I might add and in similar foolish fashion. From ROTS' perspective, I'm not seeing what makes Anakin hot stuff in Palpatine's eyes.

2-1B
05-26-2005, 03:30 AM
Obi-Wan warned him not to try that move since Obe had the high ground but Vader's overconfidence kept him from deciding against it, just as Maul's overconfidence got himself bisected. lol

JediTricks
05-26-2005, 03:39 AM
Maul's overconfidence convinced him to stand still while someone jumped up and over him and all he did was turn around. Similar "let's stand here and not defend ourselves or attack the other guy" moments occurred in ROTS in almost every fight, I noticed several times in the Dooku fight and a couple in the Grievous and Mustafar fight where someone had ample opportunity to make an attack that would have likely caught their opponent off guard but didn't - the grievous ones could be explained that he couldn't actually use 4 lightsabers at once so he "forgot" about the lower pair, but I really would feel cheated if that was the best explanation.

2-1B
05-26-2005, 03:52 AM
Then you must feel cheated when Luke tells Palpatine that his overconfidence is his weakness, then followed later by Vader chucking the old coot down that shaft. lol

jjreason
05-26-2005, 05:26 AM
First off, it's not actually in the film so we don't know Palps created Anakin.

Well, that's another "point of view" thing, JT. I think it's in there - but it depends on each person's interpretation of Palpatine's mention of Plagueis being able to manipulate midichlorians to create life. If that, paired with the fact that Ani has no father - that the midichlorians conceived him, as declared in EpI - doesn't get you to the conclusion that the Sith influenced his creation, well then it doesn't. It gets me to that conclusion however.



His defeat at Obi-Wan's hand isn't just a small measure, if not for the stupidity and/or cruelty of Kenobi in leaving Anakin alive, Anakin would most certainly be 100% dead, he is barely alive by the time Palps gets there and little more than a useless, screaming, charred torso. Anakin's action that got him defeated is still questionable in my mind, he could have lept to lower ground instead of trying to go over Obi-Wan's head, or just gone somewhere else and rebounded like he did in the elevator shaft in the beginning, instead he leaps right into Obi-Wan's path without even DEFENDING himself - he could have lept into it with his saber as a block.

Anakin was obviously very adept at blocking with his saber. For whatever reason, he wasn't able to in this case. Whether he mis-timed his leap, believed wrongfully that he could take Obi by surprise by trying that unlikely leap, fell for a feint that Obi Wan made, whatever - he wasn't able to block Obi Wan's blow. One of the great Sith attributes is that they can turn their hate into power - one of their great weaknesses appears to be that their hatred can lead them to becoming a little too emotionally involved in their battles, and thus a little too willing to take risks. Maul risked his life to berate Obi Wan with the sparks, trying to kill him with style. It backfired. Anakin fell victim to his hatred of Obi Wan and took too great a risk in hopes of cutting him down. Too big a risk, and it cost him his legs. Remember - these two know each other in and out, they must have duelled in training a thousand times. Obi Wan knows Anakin's emotions are his weakness, the force would have tipped him off to Anakin's intent on trying that leaping slash long before he even got off the platform.

As for Obi Wan leaving Anakin alive, I don't think he did that on purpose. He injured Anakin horribly, and watched him catch fire. He turns and walks away assuming (wrongfully, which must be a horrible thing for him to have to live with later) that Anakin will not survive. When Vader says to Luke that "(Obi Wan)'s failure is now complete" in ROJ, I see it now that the first part of that same failure was Obi Wan not finishing him off on Mustafar.

Another thing we haven't touched on is the possibility that Palpatine actually likes Anakin, and wants to keep him around. I'm sure that there can't be much of that (being that their Sith Lords, after all), but Palpatine has been molding Ani for most of his life. Maybe Palpatine feels indebted to Anakin for the role he played in helping his plan come to fruition - and decides to give Anakin the benefit of a rebuild to see how he can function in that state as a repayment of sorts.

A good question that comes up after discussing this for awhile is the flip side of this discussion: now that Padme's dead, what motivates Anakin to stay with Palpatine?

2-1B
05-27-2005, 01:27 AM
Reason, I get the idea that Palps is SAYING that the Sith created Anakin, I just don't think it's TRUE . . . I think they're taking the facts and twisting them to fit their desires. :)

As to why Vader stays with Palpatine after Padme dies . . . I think it's a matter of what else is he going to do ? He made a deal with the devil, got hosed, and now has to live with it. It's his own fault that Padme died so he has nobody to blame but himself. He's already dirtied himself by murdering others so like he says to Luke in ROTJ, "it is too late for me, son." That's my interpretation of his motivations.

jjreason
05-27-2005, 02:28 AM
Reason, I get the idea that Palps is SAYING that the Sith created Anakin, I just don't think it's TRUE . . . I think they're taking the facts and twisting them to fit their desires. :)



Ahh, I see. What you're saying is that Palpatine could have been lying to Ani, in hopes of furthering his seduction. Could he have been lying there AND about being able to save Padme?

It's a nice little ironic loop, the fact that Ani's dreams of Padme dying are really and truly dreams about himself going to the dark side (which is what causes her to die, catch my drift?). The way I see it, Palpatine murders Padme by flipping Ani to the dark side...... which he does by promising Ani that it's the only way to save her. This is a very, very nicely written story folks. I'm happier with it all the time. :cool:

JediTricks
05-27-2005, 04:59 AM
Then you must feel cheated when Luke tells Palpatine that his overconfidence is his weakness, then followed later by Vader chucking the old coot down that shaft. lol
Yeah, that's not different at all! :rolleyes: C'mon, it's way different, Palpatine firmly believes that Vader is his ally AND his slave, so much so that he turns his back to Vader to blast Luke; Maul and Anakin are facing an opponent whom they know to be as cunning a warrior as they, yet they just make the "duh, I'll do something stupid anyway" move which gets them diced up like potato salad on Sunday, Maul stands there and watches someone jump over his head, land, and take a big swing slicing him in half (all it would have taken on Maul's part was to raise his arm into Obi-Wan's jump) and Anakin jumps right into Obi-Wan's saber without even leading with his own weapon - there's reasonable overconfidence like that of Palpatine's in ROTJ and then there's just stupid unearned plot-device overconfidence like sticking one's hand in the garbage disposal while it's on.



Well, that's another "point of view" thing, JT. I think it's in there - but it depends on each person's interpretation of Palpatine's mention of Plagueis being able to manipulate midichlorians to create life. If that, paired with the fact that Ani has no father - that the midichlorians conceived him, as declared in EpI - doesn't get you to the conclusion that the Sith influenced his creation, well then it doesn't. It gets me to that conclusion however.But it's ambiguous at best, total supposition on your part to even strongly assume that you can get from one point to another, especially with NO mention of the other in this film. So while you feel it IS in there for everybody to see, that's frustrating to me because it seems to me like that is merely you writing the script for Lucas and expecting us to follow it, but that makes YOUR viewing of the movie totally different from anybody else's because the more of this supposition you the audience member has to do, the more unrelated to the actual movie it becomes as everybody else starts doing the same thing.

"An animal grazed on a field hundreds of years ago until someone passed by." That is not a sentence that's telling you what kind of animal, what kind of field, what era it takes place, who that person was or even what gender they were, why they were passing by, or in what way that person passing by affected the animal to stop it's grazing. The animal could be a cow, a horse, a sheep, a goat; the field could be dry grass or green grass or garbage or snow or weed-filled dirt; it could take place in the early Victorian era or the medieval period or the Renaissance or maybe not even during this planet's history at all; the person could be a knight in noisy armor or a rich widow in a loud train or a shepard moving his flock or horse thief or a hunter; and all that could greatly affect the motivation of why the animal stopped grazing, maybe it was frightened, or moved along by the shepard, or killed by the hunter or the knight, perhaps it decided to attack the train...


Anakin was obviously very adept at blocking with his saber. For whatever reason, he wasn't able to in this case. Palps lept straight at the Jedi with his saber and it was deflected but Palps wasn't wounded in the leap either, Anakin didn't try the same thing.


Whether he mis-timed his leap, believed wrongfully that he could take Obi by surprise by trying that unlikely leap Neither of those seem likely from what we're given in the film, Anakin would have to be grade-A stupid to believe that he could have taken Kenobi by surprise considering Kenobi *just* told him if he tried it it wouldn't work, "surprise, I'm doing exactly what you just said you were on guard for!" seems a little too dumb for me to believe it's a reasonable explanation for why Anakin jumped into certain doom.



One of the great Sith attributes is that they can turn their hate into power - one of their great weaknesses appears to be that their hatred can lead them to becoming a little too emotionally involved in their battles, and thus a little too willing to take risks. There's a huge difference between turning your back on an ally to attack an enemy not realizing the ally would destroy you from behind and jumping into the immediate path of an equal enemy who is expecting it.


Maul risked his life to berate Obi Wan with the sparks, trying to kill him with style. It backfired. How so? That ending had Maul stand there and take it without lifting a finger, what risk is involved there, hoping that Obi-Wan won't kill him? That's not a risk, that's total inaction.


Anakin fell victim to his hatred of Obi Wan and took too great a risk in hopes of cutting him down. Too big a risk, and it cost him his legs.Don't forget his arm, somehow in one move faster than a second Obi-Wan cut both his legs AND his arm off above the elbow (I don't see how that's possible, I guess we'll see on the DVD). "Too big a risk", that's an understatement, I still don't understand the logic in that action, even from the point of view of an angry nutjob Ani.


Remember - these two know each other in and out, they must have duelled in training a thousand times. Obi Wan knows Anakin's emotions are his weakness, the force would have tipped him off to Anakin's intent on trying that leaping slash long before he even got off the platform.But that doesn't work both ways, Anakin doesn't know Obi-Wan's ability to defend against this attack?


As for Obi Wan leaving Anakin alive, I don't think he did that on purpose. He injured Anakin horribly, and watched him catch fire. He turns and walks away assuming (wrongfully, which must be a horrible thing for him to have to live with later) that Anakin will not survive. That's what would make it stupid, it's not like Obi-Wan didn't have all the time in the world to ensure that this Sith was dead, he simply did not. His battle with Grievous, he didn't just shoot once and walk away assuming that Grievous would be taken out, he fired into him and waited until the body burned out from within before even MOVING. The reason it'd be cruel is because his brother, his best friend whom he loved, is laying there screaming in agony as he slowly dies and Obi-Wan doesn't put him out of his misery to end his suffering quickly? What would be the motivation, revenge? Doesn't seem very Jedi-like, only Sithly.


Another thing we haven't touched on is the possibility that Palpatine actually likes Anakin, and wants to keep him around. I'm sure that there can't be much of that (being that their Sith Lords, after all), but Palpatine has been molding Ani for most of his life. Maybe Palpatine feels indebted to Anakin for the role he played in helping his plan come to fruition - and decides to give Anakin the benefit of a rebuild to see how he can function in that state as a repayment of sorts. I was going to bring that up yesterday as there is tiny fragment of the movie which may support the "he likes him" theory, but it's barely there and certainly wasn't supported enough IMO to be a whole reason to the question. I don't think the audience has enough to put that together, nor does it have anything else really I feel, and I blame the screenplay for that (or editing, won't know till we see cut-scenes and shooting screenplays tho').

You do ask a good question there about why Ani would stay with Palps, my only guess is to keep HIMSELF alive now, but perhaps this is the sort of thing that Lucas wants to explain in the TV show. You could start another thread about it, I'd be interested to see the responses.



Reason, I get the idea that Palps is SAYING that the Sith created Anakin, I just don't think it's TRUE . . . I think they're taking the facts and twisting them to fit their desires. :) Wow, that's an interesting twist on the "audience having to fill in the blanks for the story" thing, first you fill it in one way by using indeterminate points from the film and then go totally onto supposition and say that this which you filled-in is a lie. It is an interesting point and not totally outside the character for him to do that (though I still haven't seen almost any places where Palpatine out-and-out lies to Anakin, nearly always he just manipulates the truth), but it's only personal theory based on supposition... like my "Qui-Gon wrong about midiclorians" theory from back in the day. :D


As to why Vader stays with Palpatine after Padme dies . . . I think it's a matter of what else is he going to do ? He made a deal with the devil, got hosed, and now has to live with it. It's his own fault that Padme died so he has nobody to blame but himself. He's already dirtied himself by murdering others so like he says to Luke in ROTJ, "it is too late for me, son." That's my interpretation of his motivations. I don't buy your reasoning for why Vader would stay with Palps since Vader shows he has ambitions to destroy Palpatine and rule the galaxy himself (that could be the reason he stays with Palps though), I don't think Vader just sticks around to punish himself.

jlw
05-27-2005, 05:17 PM
I've been debating with myself since I first watched Ep. 3 as to whether or not Palpatine was actually telling Anakin the truth in the opera house. It is possible that Palpatine made the whole thing up. However, if it is true, do you think that Palpatine was the apprentice who killed Darth Plageus (sp?)? Because that's the other way I took it. Two options:

A. Either Palpatine is lying about the whole story

or

B. The story is true and Palpatine is the apprentice that killed Plageus

A couple of comments made by Palpatine are what's confusing to me. If I remember right, Palps said that Plageus taught his apprentice everything he knew. So, if Palps is/was the apprentice he should know at least how to sustain life. But, Palps says to Anakin that they together could learn how to sustain life. So, I'm kinda leaning toward the view that Palps was just full of crap.

JediTricks
05-27-2005, 10:12 PM
I have heard that in the Making Of book, it confirms Palps is the creator of Anakin and I have heard it also says he's 1000 years old and that's when he killed his master, Plagueis. It's not canon because it's not on screen, but if accurate, it is what Lucas had in mind at the time. Honestly, I don't know for sure, it does seem quite tangled up.

2-1B
05-28-2005, 03:26 AM
When did I say that "Vader just sticks around to punish himself." ? :confused:

It's not a matter of punishment, he can't go back of course because he's been twisted and lost all those he loved. What else is he going to do ? It's not until Luke comes back into his life that he brings up the issue of overthrowing Palpatine. Until then, it's Sith business as usual and he'll tow the line for his new Empire.

JT, I'm kind of offended by your "indeterminate points and supposition" thing because I make that assertion based on Yoda's teachings, a person I trust in the Saga. I'm not filling in the blanks for the story.

2-1B
05-28-2005, 03:36 AM
Ahh, I see. What you're saying is that Palpatine could have been lying to Ani, in hopes of furthering his seduction. Could he have been lying there AND about being able to save Padme?

It's a nice little ironic loop, the fact that Ani's dreams of Padme dying are really and truly dreams about himself going to the dark side (which is what causes her to die, catch my drift?). The way I see it, Palpatine murders Padme by flipping Ani to the dark side...... which he does by promising Ani that it's the only way to save her. This is a very, very nicely written story folks. I'm happier with it all the time. :cool:


It is a nice story, isn't it ? :)
Too bad so many people don't seem to get it :evil: (that means YOU, Owen Gleiberman from EW ! ! ! lol lol lol )

Had Anakin taken Yoda's advice to let go and accept that death is a natural part of life (not to say that we shouldn't TRY to help others, just that we can't be all powerful - as Padme herself said ;) ) he wouldn't have ventured down the Dark Path in the hope of saving her. Palpatine told him what he wanted to hear and played on his fears.

MaquisWarrior
05-29-2005, 09:55 AM
Actually a cut scene was why Padme was crying for no reason in the final cut and to us it seemed that she is crying because she saw the Jedi Temple on fire. In that missing scene she saw a new entry in the Holocron and it was her BIG STRONG JEDI LOVE GOD, Ani and Palps dressed in their capes and robes...singing showtunes in this case from "Annie" where Ani was Annie and Palps was Daddy Warbucks;"Together at last....Together forever....And tonight I'll be an apple seller too...I don't need anything but you...Doodie OOt DOOT..." She picks up and another holocron and the duo are doing scenes from the HMS Pinafore:"I am the very model of a modern Major General..." And she starts to well up when they do CATS:"Memories..All alone in the moonlight...It was beautiful then..." "No wonder HE LOVED The Phantom....OF THE OPERA...sooo much," was the cut line from Padme's script. Now that's "F***ing Awsome" NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE!!

JimJamBonds
05-29-2005, 01:01 PM
Actually a cut scene was why Padme was crying for no reason in the final cut and to us it seemed that she is crying because she saw the Jedi Temple on fire. In that missing scene she saw a new entry in the Holocron and it was her BIG STRONG JEDI LOVE GOD, Ani and Palps dressed in their capes and robes...singing showtunes in this case from "Annie" where Ani was Annie and Palps was Daddy Warbucks;"Together at last....Together forever....And tonight I'll be an apple seller too...I don't need anything but you...Doodie OOt DOOT..." She picks up and another holocron and the duo are doing scenes from the HMS Pinafore:"I am the very model of a modern Major General..." And she starts to well up when they do CATS:"Memories..All alone in the moonlight...It was beautiful then..." "No wonder HE LOVED The Phantom....OF THE OPERA...sooo much," was the cut line from Padme's script. Now that's "F***ing Awsome" NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE!!

Great stuff Marquis! It was my understanding that in an early rough cut while Vader and Obi Wan are walking in a circle right before they start their duel they were snapping fingers and bobbing up and down just like in West Side Story.

Jim Jam

MaquisWarrior
05-29-2005, 09:46 PM
Dark Side Story!
"That is very Muy Muy!" says Jar Jar Binks of the Phantom Menace
"Up Thumbs, very high," says Yoda of the Jedi Council
General Grievous of the Banking Clan gives it four lightsabers up....Highest rating!!
Aunt Beru says about star Luke Skywalker:"...he HAS too much of his father in him!"
"This is f***ing awesome,"Rick McCallum to the SF premiere crowd, TPM DVD disc 2 (thanks to Ceasar...It's really on there!!)
And Jean Luc Picard of The Next Generation gives it :"Number One!" and says "Engage!"

JediTricks
05-29-2005, 10:12 PM
When did I say that "Vader just sticks around to punish himself." ? :confused: That's what I got out of your statement that "He made a deal with the devil, got hosed, and now has to live with it. It's his own fault that Padme died so he has nobody to blame but himself." That's coming off the point you made about "what else is he going to do?", but that didn't really feel like that much of factor to me since it seems like he can now do anything he wants, he's not chained to Palpatine and there's really nobody else to stop him.


It's not a matter of punishment, he can't go back of course because he's been twisted and lost all those he loved. What else is he going to do ? It's not until Luke comes back into his life that he brings up the issue of overthrowing Palpatine. Until then, it's Sith business as usual and he'll tow the line for his new Empire. The key to this though is "what else is he going to do?" suggesting he had 2 choices, go foward to some sort of destiny with Palpatine, or go backwards to Padme and the Jedi which he has cut himself off from. However, once Padme is dead Vader has no use for Palpatine that I can see, Vader could decide to stop being Palpatine's apprentice and go take over the Outer Rim if he so chose, or go flip burgers at Dexter's Diner, or hunt down all those horrid little slave children that he knew as a kid and make their lives miserable, or become a mercenary, or pretty much anything else.



JT, I'm kind of offended by your "indeterminate points and supposition" thing because I make that assertion based on Yoda's teachings, a person I trust in the Saga. I'm not filling in the blanks for the story. That doesn't rule them out as indeterminate points, we don't know that Yoda's teachings apply that way, and they're not foolproof either: Yoda wasn't correct about Luke becoming an agent of evil and staying with the Dark Side. I said you an indeterminate point when you claimed that Palpatine said he created Anakin, because it's not directly said or shown in the film, only hinted at, that makes it an indeterminate point; is that in any way arguable? Indeterminate (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=indeterminate%20): Not precisely determined, determinable, or established. I don't see how that's offensive, it's true and you even say as much in your original point when you start it with "I get the idea that...".

I also said your claim that you felt Palpatine was merely lying/manipulating the facts to Anakin about creating him was supposition because there's no strong evidence in the movie to support that opinion of yours, which is what makes it supposition. Supposition (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=supposition): a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence. Again, I don't see how that's wrong or offensive on my part.

MaquisWarrior
05-29-2005, 10:58 PM
Actually a cut scene was why Padme was crying for no reason in the final cut and to us it seemed that she is crying because she saw the Jedi Temple on fire. In that missing scene she saw a new entry in the Holocron and it was her BIG STRONG JEDI LOVE GOD, Ani and Palps dressed in their capes and robes...singing showtunes in this case from "Annie" where Ani was Annie and Palps was Daddy Warbucks;"Together at last....Together forever....And tonight I'll be an apple seller too...I don't need anything but you...Doodie OOt DOOT..." She picks up and another holocron and the duo are doing scenes from the HMS Pinafore:"I am the very model of a modern Major General..." And she starts to well up when they do CATS:"Memories..All alone in the moonlight...It was beautiful then..." "No wonder HE LOVED The Phantom....OF THE OPERA...sooo much," was the cut line from Padme's script. Now that's "F***ing Awsome" NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE!!
Let me back track on this before you dudes start swinging lightsaber at each other....First off let me apologize to those who do wear capes, masks and sing showtunes in this club. I know I say never apologize but sometimes...anyway... Padme is crying , NOT because the Jedi Temple is on fire, but because HER VERY OWN PET JEDI WITH THE BIG EYES was wearing a cape, mask and robes with Palpy doing the Macarena dance to the tune of the Hampster song (www.hampsterdance.com (http://www.hampsterdance.com)). The next scene Padme screams as if someone pulled off one of her fingernails!



What Padme says while she's crying (which was also cut out):"Damn you JAR JAR! I knew I shouldn't have let him see JAR JAR! OBI-Wan!! That's right he came out in Molin Rouge! Gasp!! WHYYYYY??? " Then Padme sings to herself and the twins (the twins inside her belly, this is a family club) :"First I was afraid ...I was pertrified..." Then the crying starts!

good shot jansen
05-30-2005, 04:06 PM
what's that you say porkins?..........oh right....stay on target.........


a couple of things that i seemed to have missed my 1st go round with the movie, was palpatine saying to yoda during their confrontation, was that anakin's (vader's) destiny was to be come more powerful than even he or yoda. almost like a father boasting about his expectations of his son. also, after palpatine finds anakin in his burned up state, he exclaims in almost a relieved tone of voice that he's still alive, and then leans down to give him almost a fatherly touch of compassion to let anakin know, that everything is now going to be alright, cause he's here to take care of him.

it certainly felt that gl's intention is that palpatine was the creator of anakin, through his willing of the midichlorens to produce shmi's offspring. qui gon says to shmi, if he had been born closer to the republic he would have been identified sooner. palpatine knowing that a child strong with the force, yet located in the outer rim would not be detected by the jedi.

regardless of whether anakin is properly suited or not as a sith lord apprentice of sideous, it seems that palpatines l :Ponder: ove for his offspring clouds his insight about anakin. afterall, he didn't see anakin throwing him down the shaft in return of the jedi, he couldn't imagine his "son" ever doing that to him.

as for his wanting luke to take his place, it's always been said, the only reason why parents have children, is to one day get grandchildren............

JediTricks
05-31-2005, 04:05 AM
I noticed that in my second viewing as well, but not the first, and I wasn't the only one who didn't see it, which leads me to believe either it wasn't in the opening day version I saw or there was group hypnosis at play that day. Still, while he does have 2 lines which lend SOME credence to the claim, they are not by themselves what I'd consider to be strong evidence of the point and there's a lot more roadwork they have to do than just "who's your daddy". Plus, it takes so much more for me to believe that Palpatine keeps Anakin around because he loves the boy yet is so willing to have Luke kill Anakin in ROTJ.

MaquisWarrior
05-31-2005, 08:17 AM
I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH...I wish the Ani/Palpy relationship DIDN't come out as ALTERNATIVE LIFESTYLE as it looked to me. Was it the actors, the acting, or the writing that ruined this good plot device???

For the last time Padme saw them dance to this www.hampsterdance.com that's why she cried or least that's what one would conclude had there been better writing or acting!

VaderhitsJarjar
06-15-2005, 09:07 PM
He needed Vader for the same reason he built the deathstar - plus all the other reasons mentioned in this thread -

Vader keeps Palpy around because regardless of what happened to Padme he still hungers for complete power and control over the universe -

I love the fact that Vader asks Padme to "join him and rule the galaxy together." paraphrased.

palpy basically does all the work and Vader can sit back choke some motti and wait for the right moment.

and now for something completely different.

This was mentioned a little back in the thread -
but Obiwan jumps at maul in PM because it is a life and death situation -
Maul loses focus in his moment and Obiwan takes advantage.

Ever lose a game of chess because you forgot the white bishop was in the corner - ya slapped yourself cause you knew it was there but you were thinking of your checkmate in three moves.

Or Jerry Rice dropping a pass in the endzone. He does do this from time to time.

Maul froze - call it lack of experience -

Devo
06-18-2005, 04:36 PM
Palpatine needed Anakin to wipe out the possibly dozens of Jedi knight/masters that survived that initial purge(remember Obi disabled the phoney recall order).Palpatine himself would have been too busy consolidating his grip on the republic to do this himself and would certainly not have left this job in the hands of storm/clone troopers(I know, I know they managed to kill a load of Jedi masters, but they had the element of surprise).

Apologies if this point has been made already

JediTricks
06-21-2005, 12:41 AM
No, that point hasn't been made, but it's not in the film either.