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View Full Version : References in Ep 3 are like Scooby Doo meeting famous actors



JediTricks
05-21-2005, 01:39 AM
"Jinkies, you're the famous actor Don Knotts!" - Velma

One aspect I especially didn't care for with Episode III was the way it handled bridging the 2 trilogies by throwing in frivolous references to the OT (as well as a few from the previous 2 prequels, such as Jar Jar) without any reason beyond "look at this great stunt addition!". We have vehicles and weapons and other things that lead up to aspects of the OT but they come off like someone had a checklist of OT riffs shoehorned in to get a certain feeling across without any real reason behind them. The TIE Fighter sound and formation around the shuttle near the end of the film with vehicles that seemed to have nothing to do with TIE Fighters; Captain Antilles and the Tantive IV, especially 'here's some droids, wipe his mind'; Chewbacca; the co-bridge of the Venator Star Destroyer; Governor Tarkin; Anakin leading the troops into the temple and killing little kids so they can say he helped hunt down the Jedi; the list goes on.

One that I felt came off especially tacked on was Obi-Wan taking Anakin's saber after their duel, he just walks up and picks it up like he dropped his wallet, all so we can have that scene where Ben gives Luke his father's lightsaber in ANH, but we aren't shown or told any real REASON why this happens, it just does. Heck, even in those "New Scooby Doo Movies" (the weekly cartoon in the '70s that had Scoob and the gang meeting The Globetrotters and Mama Cass and Batman & Robin) we got at least a cursory explanation of why Mama Cass was running a haunted airstrip or why Don Knotts was running a haunted carnival, too often it seemed Ep 3 didn't even pay its references that level of lip service.

Beast
05-21-2005, 01:51 AM
I think you're being a bit hard on the film now, JT. Complaining about the sounds of ships or the fact that ships fly in the same formation in two different films. They are a military structured group. Of course the same formation would still be in use 20+ years later. We still use some of the same formations as we did during WWII and such. As for the wiping of C-3PO's mind, I hope the line of dialogue from C-3PO that causes it is restored for the DVD. C-3PO originally said something along the lines of the fact he can't wait to recount Master Anakin and Padme's story to Leia when she grows up. Knowing that it was a security risk, C-3PO gets the old Mind Wipe. :D

I don't think Chewbacca or Tarkin were really heavily focused on. Tarkin wasn't even really featured. In fact he walks out of frame a moment after being seen. And sure Chewbacca had a somewhat big part, but it wasn't huge. He didn't really do anything but help Yoda escape. Just be glad the 'Young Han' scene was cut. ;)

As for Anakin killing kids, he killed other Jedi's also. Plus there are the ones who went into hiding due to the Jedi Temple Beacon. He can spend the next few years hunting down those stray Jedi's and taking care of them. As for his lightsaber, it does seem to have some ritual signifigance. So Obi-Wan was keeping it, like he kept Qui-Gon's.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

JediTricks
05-21-2005, 02:09 AM
Complaining about the sounds of ships or the fact that ships fly in the same formation in two different films.I can't change who I am, that sort of thing matters to me. The prequels have played too fast and loose with sound effects IMO, a lot of folks did notice the TIE Fighter cannon sound with Zam being an oddity in AOTC, so I'm not as far out there as you are making me out.

You seem to pull a lot of stuff in from cut scenes, I can't abide that as they aren't HERE in the finished film we're given and that's what matters right now. Chewie and Tarkin are like pointless cameos, if you must have them there give them a solid REASON to be there rather than just a wink to something else, this is exactly what bothers me. Yoda's line saying goodbye to Chewie was perfectly in that Scooby Doo vein... speaking of, Yoda's stuff about Qui-Gon's ghost at the end may have been to me the absolute worst offender in this category.

Beast
05-21-2005, 02:18 AM
The only cut scene I really mentioned was a cut line of dialogue from C-3PO. Chewie's inclusion wasn't pointless. And I don't see anything wrong with Yoda saying goodbye to him. After all, he did help him escape from the planet. I don't have a problem with Tarkin being there either. It's not like it's a gretuitous cameo. He's there as a tie into ANH. Clearly he's a trusted person under Palpatine, which is why he gets the privalage of treating Vader like his *****. And what's wrong with talking about Qui-Gon? Yoda and Ben had to learn how to maintain their idenity in the force from someone. And it's already been established by AOTC, that his presence was still nearby. :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

2-1B
05-21-2005, 02:28 AM
Like Yoda said: "good relations I have, with the Wookiees." lol

Good point about Tarkin - on one hand I see the shot as unnecessary but then again, it does explain why he is the bee's knees in ANH. At least, as far as Vader answering to him in a military sense. The Death Star still wasn't needed though, I mean we DID see the plans in AOTC so I didn't need it in ROTS but I don't care too much about that either way.

As to the Scooby Doo idea, JT, I'm gonna have that in mind later today when I see ROTS again as Anakin meets Grievous. "Scooby Doo Meets the Wheezer of the Hand"
I know this isn't what you meant because you're talking about the OT connections but Grievous is such a silly goon that I think he would fit right into the Scooby Doo cannon. lol

JediTricks
05-21-2005, 02:56 AM
Yeah Caes, but who would be under the rubber mask?

"How did he do it Freddy?"
"Well gang, he used this hidden projector to create the enemy forces in that giant space battle, he used small wind-up motors hidden in his sleeves to twirl the lightsabers in his hands, and the Force lightning was just a small battery sewn into his costume..."
"... that explains the square-shaped drag marks in the sand that we found in between his footsteps!"
"You got it Daph!"
"B..b..but who was the scary robot monster man then???"
*fwop*
(all together) "Old man Palpatine?!?"
"And I woulda gotten away with galactic domination if it hadn't have been for you meddling kids!"


JJB, as for Chewie, why just him and Tarfful, why not a bunch of others or something? What did they do that made them so special here? What made Chewie someone Yoda would know by name?

Tarkin should have had a real role here, we've got a major military event going on and all he can do is stand in the background at the end and walk away??? What's the point? Why is he there? Why doesn't he DO something or SAY something? Here he becomes a living set piece, a moving museum exhibit: "and on the left, you'll remember this curmudgeonly old villain from the first Star Wars movie, yes it's Grand Moff Tarkin and here he is in his natural environment standing on the bridge of a Star Destroyer... for what reason? We'll never know."

That Qui-Gon line was so horrible I couldn't stomach it, "soon you'll meet something that ties into the first prequel and eventually will teach you something important and change you forever." "My old master? Yippee! Wowzers" "Yes, and now we've solved those mysteries without having to actually show anything at all except a piece of hollow, unconvincing, last-minute, tacked-on-feeling dialogue used as spackle to fill a crack between the 2 trilogies." That's how it came off to me, it had nothing to do with anything we were actually seeing at the time, it was like the text that explained the future of the characters at the end of American Graffiti.

2-1B
05-21-2005, 03:25 AM
Excellent writing on the Scoob episode ! :D

The Wookiee thing, I know what you mean and I see what you're saying but I think it would have been worse if it was just Chewie, now THAT would have stuck out ! Having Tarfful in there softened the reference for me and made it feel more natural.

The Qui-Gon thing, that one I was torn on. For awhile since AOTC I was wanting to see Qui-Gon's ghost but the more I think about it, I'm fine with just hearing him in AOTC. From the OT I believe that Anakin had no knowledge of this so it was obviously something that happened after his Fall. I like the idea of having Ben learn about it in between Trilogies because had we seen Qui-Gon's ghost, there would be the question of why doesn't he come up in the OT ? For all we know, Qui-Gon CAN'T appear as a ghost. This is not the first time I have heard the scene described as "tacked on" but when I see that shot of Yoda meditating on Polis Massa before Obi-Wan arrives, I imagine he is "communing" with Qui-Gon right then and there. :crazed:

JediTricks
05-21-2005, 03:38 AM
Excellent writing on the Scoob episode ! :D I have always been TV's sith apprentice. :evil: ;)


Having Tarfful in there softened the reference for me and made it feel more natural.Really? I thought it wasn't enough, maybe if there had been a few more there, as it is it reminded me of a "Captain Picard, meet Captain Kirk" type thing, and it also felt like something which bothered me about Ep 3 that was similar to what I am getting at in this thread but about marketing instead of other-film references... unlike all the other films, we get a lot of characters telling us the names of things and characters like Tarfful, buzz droids, vulture droids, stuff like that which felt wrong to me, like "look kids, here's what you can buy in stores after the movie!".


From the OT I believe that Anakin had no knowledge of this so it was obviously something that happened after his Fall.Whoa, wait a second, I remember Yoda mentioning something about Qui-Gon's Force Spirit to Anakin in Ep 3 when they're having their talk after Anakin's bad-dream sequence, at the time it set off only small alarms in my head and I didn't put it together with the end of the film or Vader killing Obi-Wan in ANH, but right there we have Anakin getting some sort of knowledge about this and it's not even played out like an oddity at the time.

2-1B
05-21-2005, 03:50 AM
Nope, not at all.

Yoda tells Anakin not to mourn for those who have transformed into The Force and not to miss them. Death is a part of life. He says nothing about Qui-Gon or anything in general about "coming back." The Force Ghost thing is different than the thought of a general afterlife . . . look at Ani talking to Shmi's grave, Clieeg referencing the netherworld . . . nothing of that Yoda speech hints at Qui-Gon in my opinion. I could easily see Yoda giving that speech to Obi-Wan 10 years earlier or any other Jedi a hundred years earlier.

Big difference IMO between dying and going to the other side vs. dying and communing with the living. :) Also, after Ben is gone Vader says "Obi-Wan can no longer help him" because he doesn't know that Ben can come back, that it's even possible. :)

I remember reading the current Insider with Ewan McG and he talks about how it's weird for actors to have to say dialogue to introduce things that they know about but the audience hasn't heard yet - buzz droids and ray shileds come to mind when I think of that concept. lol