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View Full Version : Palpatine: "one cheated death" & Anakin's father? (merged)



Darth Jax
05-23-2005, 11:22 PM
when palpy tells ani that only one has cheated death i originally assumed he was referring to a previous sith lord. after rewatching the movie today i now feel that he was referring to qui-gon. somehow palpy determined, as did qui-gon, that someone could exist forever within the force. unlike qui-gon palpy obviously hasn't unlocked the key to this ability.

with this interpretation it makes palpy into a liar when he tells anikin that the secret to saving someone from death can't be taught by a jedi, since only qgj (and later ben & yoda) learn it. how and why ani becomes a spirit at the end of ROTJ are completely open for supposition.

thoughts?

Kidhuman
05-24-2005, 12:16 AM
I thought he was talking about a prior Sith Lord who somehow figured how to extend his life. QGJ to me didnt cheat death, he died, he got gutted plain and simple. Yoda and Ben later give themself to the force. If QGJ can survive in the afterlife, why cant others? Maybe they didnt figure out how to come back, but QGJ did by continuing to study.

DarthAngel
05-24-2005, 12:20 AM
The first time I saw ROTS I thought Palpy was refering to his master as being the one who has cheated death. However after seeing it for the 5th time, I am starting to think that the only one who has cheated death is Palpy himself. I could be wrong, but to me it makes sense.

2-1B
05-24-2005, 01:43 AM
He's not talking about Qui-Gon.

Slicker
05-24-2005, 02:04 AM
I thought it was his master or Palpy himself.

JediTricks
05-24-2005, 05:33 AM
Palpatine is supposedly 1000 years old in ROTS due to the knowledge he got from his master Darth Plagueis, so Palps is the one who cheats death here... at least for another 22 years or so. ;)

El Chuxter
05-24-2005, 12:07 PM
If you want to dip into EU, he could be talking about Exar Kun. Or Freedon Nadd.

2-1B
05-24-2005, 01:00 PM
Qui-Gon said something in the cut scene about a Shaman of the Wills, I read this at the Digital Bits.

El Chuxter
05-24-2005, 02:04 PM
The comic version mentions the Whills as well.

What is a Whill? :confused:

Devo
05-24-2005, 02:12 PM
Initially when I read about the whole Qui-gon being the first to become one with the force thing and him teaching this to Yoda I thought 'wow thats a good idea'...but now that I think of it - it still doesn't explain why his body didn't disappear like Ben and Yoda's. Or is there some further explanation given in the film that I've not heard about? If not this is a stupid oversight which could so easily have been avoided by having Qui-gon disappear after he finished his dying words to Obi-wan, thereby allowing us to assume that all force-users disappear after death.

Anakins_Shadow
05-24-2005, 02:19 PM
Initially when I read about the whole Qui-gon being the first to become one with the force thing and him teaching this to Yoda I thought 'wow thats a good idea'...but now that I think of it - it still doesn't explain why his body didn't disappear like Ben and Yoda's. Or is there some further explanation given in the film that I've not heard about? If not this is a stupid oversight which could so easily have been avoided by having Qui-gon disappear after he finished his dying words to Obi-wan, thereby allowing us to assume that all force-users disappear after death.

Who is to say that that tho? Why cant QGJ become one with the force like Yoda and Ben did once he died. This is all realtive, maybe his spirit was not released yet? Possibly QGJ learned of the ways in "Jedi Heaven", or he waited until the time was right to reveal this secret?

Im sure GL will have SOME excuse/ anwser to this question. I just wish we got to see QGJ and have Obi see his master again etc. Would have been a great link to TPM for ppl to have a little more respect for that film.

JediTricks
05-24-2005, 07:48 PM
Well, we don't see Anakin's spirit until his body is burned up, perhaps it's the same with QGJ, though he had 12 years to give Obi-Wan a call after the funeral pyre.

Mad Slanted Powers
05-24-2005, 10:41 PM
Yoda knew he was dying and prepared for it. Ben let him self be struck down. In fact, he may have actually disappeared before Vader struck him. I recall from the Story of Star Wars tape I used to listen to years ago, the narrator described the scene as saying Vader had no victim, as Obi-Wan had disappeared. The ROTS comic has Qui-Gon telling Yoda that he "will be able to merge with the Force at will." So it seems the disappearing part is something the Jedi does. Qui-Gon appears to have known the secret, but his death was bit more sudden, though he may have been preparing for it during the break in the battle when he was kneeling. Maybe Qui-Gon just hadn't learned enough about it at the point of death. Thus, he knew enough to be able to speak from beyond, but not to appear as a spirit. However, in that state, he was able to learn more about the Force so he could teach Yoda and Ben how to do it properly. This doesn't explain how Anakin was able to appear as a spirit. Perhaps he had help from Yoda and Obi-Wan from beyond. Or perhaps he had the ability, but since as a Sith he was working from a perspective of greed and selfishness, he would not be able to attain it. His final selfless act was able to free himself from such a constraint.

El Chuxter
05-25-2005, 12:10 PM
Well, we don't see Anakin's spirit until his body is burned up, perhaps it's the same with QGJ, though he had 12 years to give Obi-Wan a call after the funeral pyre.

But we don't actually see anything burned aside from the armor, since Luke puts the helmet back on the body.

2-1B
05-26-2005, 01:18 AM
But Chux, he dies and falls backward - it's not like he vanished immediately as Obi and Yoda did. :)

JediTricks
05-26-2005, 03:08 AM
But we don't actually see anything burned aside from the armor, since Luke puts the helmet back on the body.
Assuming Luke didn't stuff the armor with hay, the body is still in the armor when it's on the pyre because the body is filled out even though the torso, arms, and legs are all "soft" pieces that would lay flat unless somehow inflated.

2-1B
05-26-2005, 03:32 AM
That would be awesome, great idea for a Vader Scarecrow this Fall ! ! ! lol

JediTricks
05-26-2005, 03:39 AM
Yeah, that wouldn't immediately get stolen at all. ;)

vadersvette
05-26-2005, 10:24 PM
Kinda related to this subject:
Just watched ROTS again and noticed something...when Palpy tells Anakin about Darth Plagueis, and how he could influence midi-chlorians to create life...could it be that Darth Plagueis created Anakin, and that is why Palpy is so interested in him? Or maybe Palpy created Anakin with the force--Darth Plagueis taught him everything he knew, then he Palpy killed him. Any thoughts? :sur: :sur: :sur: :sur:

JimJamBonds
05-26-2005, 11:21 PM
Kinda related to this subject:
Just watched ROTS again and noticed something...when Palpy tells Anakin about Darth Plagueis, and how he could influence midi-chlorians to create life...could it be that Darth Plagueis created Anakin, and that is why Palpy is so interested in him? Or maybe Palpy created Anakin with the force--Darth Plagueis taught him everything he knew, then he Palpy killed him. Any thoughts? :sur: :sur: :sur: :sur:

I've wondered about that myself, how Palp's stops and looks at Anakin before finishing his statement how Plagueis could create life. Maybe he just does that to help draw Anakins interest towards the dark side?

At what point did Plagueis die? I wonder since the timeline would be rather close: Plagueis creates Anakin, Palpers kills Plagueis, Palps finds and trains Darth Maul. That might be a bit too much going on in only 9 yrs. Also from the land of EU I remember in a book on Maul him being little and going and checking out the Jedi Temple with Palpatine.

Jim Jam

2-1B
05-27-2005, 12:52 AM
Even though it was originally intended for Palpacrust to tell Anakin that he created him, I'm going with my own theory that Palps is just leading him along a lie. The "fact" is that he was conceived by the midichlorians to be the Chosen One as Quiggly Down Under assumed upon finding him . . . Palps would just be twisting the prophecy to fit his own desires.

Thankfully what we get in the theatrical cut is very open to interpretation but even if Palps flat out said that he was responsible, I wouldn't believe him.

JediTricks
05-27-2005, 03:35 AM
I renamed this thread now that it's been merged and has branched out in topics, not sure how effective it is though.