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View Full Version : how does security holo have footage of Ani w/ Palpatine?



JediTricks
05-26-2005, 03:24 AM
I noticed this on opening day but decided to hold off until seeing it again to be sure. In ROTS, Palpatine sends Ani to destroy the Jedi Temple and then head off to Mustafar to kill the Separatist leaders after "knighting" his new Sith apprentice. Yet when Yoda and Obi-Wan get to the temple and check the security holograms, there's an image of Anakin kneeling before Palpatine and getting a similar talk, except it's clearly a different scene than the one we saw because it doesn't mention Mustafar, information Obi-Wan later tries to get out of Padme. So where does this holo come from, do they have spy cameras in Palpatine's office and if so, why would they edit out important info? Or did Palpatine come to the Jedi Temple just so he could re-initiate Anakin into the fold on camera even though nobody should have been around to ever see the holo and Palps already gave Anakin final orders in his office previously?

2-1B
05-26-2005, 03:41 AM
I took it to mean that Palpatine went to the Temple to relish in the carnage. Seeing the good work of his new servant and absolute proof that he had bathed his hands in the blood of the Jedi (Mace's murder was an act of trickery, Anakin's complicity in it was not cold blooded), Palps commended Vader and then sent him along to finish the other half of his order which was to go to Mustafar.

Kill the Jedi in the Temple, then go kill the Separatists.

JediTricks
05-26-2005, 03:42 AM
BTW, just a side-note really, but the holo showing Anakin fighting other Jedi in the temple that Obi-Wan sees, I've heard claim that this is proof he did more than kill younglings, but I can't see how anybody can tell they're adults or not, they're shorter than Anakin and you don't really see them all that well, could easily have been a kid like Zett Jussaka or whatever that name is.

Beast
05-26-2005, 09:46 AM
Yeah. It's pretty obvious that Palpatine went to the temple to relish in the carnage. Since as JT mentioned, the dialogue between Palpatine/Vader is different then the dialogue in Palpy's office. This seemed like praising for dealing with the Jedi, and then dispatching Anakin to complete the second half of his task, dealing with the Sepratists on Mustafer. Also to finally get access to the Jedi Archives for himself. After all the 'Making of' books for TPM noted that there are Ancient Sith Holocrons locked away in the Archives. I could see Palpatine in a hurry to get his hands on all that knowledge. :)

kool-aid killer
05-26-2005, 01:47 PM
I figured Palpatine went to see the end result, i think with all of his hate for the Jedi he wouldnt pass it up for the galaxy. I do think Anakin had to have fought older Jedi, i doubt the Jedi would have left the temple in the care of younglings or Padawans.

DarthAngel
05-26-2005, 02:19 PM
I always took it to mean that Palpatine went to the Jedi templeknowing full well that there were security camera's all over the place. It was kinda his way of saying to the Jedi well you did what you did during the sith war, so now he had the upper hand. He knew that someone was going to see it (namely Yoda). Palpatine always plans everything out well in advance, he even planned his own kidnapping.

As for Anakin and the footage of him killing Jedi, it is difficult to tell is the Jedi he kills in the footage Obi-Wan is looking at were other masters, knights, padawans or younglings. However the novel states that there are masters all the way through to younglings slaughtered at the temple.

JimJamBonds
05-26-2005, 02:56 PM
The Jedi thta we see Vader fighting seem to be older how old??? I'd say Jedi knights, remember Nick Gillard (I forget his last name at the moment) was going to be one of those we see in the footage being killed and he'd be a full fledged Jedi.

My thought on the Vader/Palps part is that Vader is in communication with Palps and is letting him know that step one has been taken care of.

Jim Jam

El Chuxter
05-26-2005, 04:43 PM
In the novelization, Palpatine comes in to verify the carnage and so that Anakin can report on the Sith Holocrons that were in the library.

Also, Cin Drallig (Nick Gillard) fights alongside the Padawan Whie in the Garden of 1,000 Fountains, where Vader kills them both.

Rocketboy
05-26-2005, 04:52 PM
Thanks for clearing that up! It was driving me crazy!
I thought Obi-Wan got a different edit or something and I wondered how he had securty footage of Palp's office.

2-1B
05-27-2005, 01:04 AM
Rocketboy, that Chewie pic in your avatar looks like he is trying to seduce me.

JediTricks
05-27-2005, 04:17 AM
Yeah. It's pretty obvious that Palpatine went to the temple to relish in the carnage.Oh, it's "pretty obvious" is it? You sound like a certain guy who is still a kid. :p I not only didn't find it "pretty obvious", I found it fairly odd that it was there, especially since it zips right to it, I guess the Jedi security holo system has a convenient self-aware internal editing system just for such occasions. :p


Since as JT mentioned, the dialogue between Palpatine/Vader is different then the dialogue in Palpy's office. This seemed like praising for dealing with the Jedi, and then dispatching Anakin to complete the second half of his task, dealing with the Sepratists on Mustafer. Is that how it's "pretty obvious"? It didn't seem obvious to me, it seemed odd and confusing to me and this doesn't support it, just adds to it. And Palpatine only says he's pleased, not with what, he could just as easily have been talking about how Anakin helped out with Mace.


Also to finally get access to the Jedi Archives for himself. After all the 'Making of' books for TPM noted that there are Ancient Sith Holocrons locked away in the Archives. I could see Palpatine in a hurry to get his hands on all that knowledge That would have been interesting... too bad it's not in the film at all and thus anybody who hasn't read those books is in the dark left confused.



I figured Palpatine went to see the end result Ok, but you had to FIGURE it, you had to do that little extra piece of work which may or may not be true, it's up in the air and you had to fill it in, I think in this type of usage that's a failure of the screenplay rather than a true extending of it (this is in contrast to when an actor says "look at that!" and reacts in horror but we have to use our imaginations to fill in the look of the monster).


I do think Anakin had to have fought older Jedi, i doubt the Jedi would have left the temple in the care of younglings or Padawans. Yeah, that's apparently true according to a SW.com easter egg article that came out today, though I don't remember seeing anything of that older 3rd guy in the holos. (somewhere around the middle of this page: http://www.starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/production/f20050526/indexp3.html ) And again, except for this easter egg which I certainly don't remember and seems to only be showing the back of the guy in an odd angle which doesn't give proportions, we're never shown Anakin engaging any adult Jedi in the temple so the audience has to fill in the blanks just to assume it happens, because otherwise as it stands it didn't happen. We see Yoda & Obi-Wan talking about younglings being killed by lightsabers, but all we're given in the movie is that they're not adults, so either there are no adults or the adults were taken down by the clones.



I always took it to mean that Palpatine went to the Jedi templeknowing full well that there were security camera's all over the place. It was kinda his way of saying to the Jedi well you did what you did during the sith war, so now he had the upper hand. He knew that someone was going to see it (namely Yoda). Palpatine always plans everything out well in advance, he even planned his own kidnapping. I didn't get that while watching it, neither time in fact, and I don't think there really are enough on-screen suggestions to allow the audience to follow that line of reasoning to that conclusion (or any other, I feel, it's just too vague AND is somewhat contrasted by the "here's your orders" scene from earlier in the film).



My thought on the Vader/Palps part is that Vader is in communication with Palps and is letting him know that step one has been taken care of. I don't follow you, do you mean Ani was on the holo-phone to Palps in this scene? I didn't get that feeling, they seemed to be in direct proximity to each other, and they were both equal amounts of hologram instead of a holo-of-a-holo that Palps would be (though it's possible that would show up the same as a standard holo, I kinda doubt this though as it'd make faking security holos really easy). But this is why I dislike when stuff which is in realtime with the movie and doesn't require magical powers or mystical explanation like this is left so ambiguous.



In the novelization, Palpatine comes in to verify the carnage and so that Anakin can report on the Sith Holocrons that were in the library. Ok, another reference not in the film, but it asks the question, why did Palpatine give Vader his after-the-temple orders before this? The only reason I can think of is so that the name of the planet won't be on the holo yet it won't seem like Palpatine is intentionally hiding it from the holo either, which in my mind makes it nothing but a kinda sloppy CPD - convenient plot device.



Thanks for clearing that up! It was driving me crazy!
I thought Obi-Wan got a different edit or something and I wondered how he had securty footage of Palp's office. That is how the film left me feeling as well, which seemed confusing because it didn't make that much sense, and this is why stuff like this shouldn't be left to outside sources to explain, the film should at least be that much self-contained.



Rocketboy, that Chewie pic in your avatar looks like he is trying to seduce me. You sicko! :crazed: I do see what you mean though, it does look that way. :D That reminds me of that annoying Verizon ad with Chewie recording ringtones, the guy keeps giving him different motivations and acting like he received them, but Chewie keeps doing the same roar even though we KNOW he's far more expressive than that. It really cheeses me off!

Rocketboy
05-27-2005, 04:21 PM
Rocketboy, that Chewie pic in your avatar looks like he is trying to seduce me.And that's exactly why I used it! ;)

Little known EU trivia: To raise some extra cash Chewie did some modeling work between ROTS and ANH!

2-1B
05-28-2005, 04:04 AM
Is that how it's "pretty obvious"? It didn't seem obvious to me, it seemed odd and confusing to me and this doesn't support it, just adds to it. And Palpatine only says he's pleased, not with what, he could just as easily have been talking about how Anakin helped out with Mace.

Not really, not at all just as easy. Yoda said "if into the security footage you go, blah blah, blah" then Obi-Wan sees footage of Anakin killing Jedi, then Obi-Wan sees footage of Anakin with the Emperor. Linear events clearly taking place after Mace's death so no, it could not just as easily been from Palps praising Ani after killing MAster Windu.

Sorry JT but I understood these sequences without the aid of the novelization or any goofy talk of Sith Holocrons or other Knicknacks so I don't buy the excuse that it can only be understood with the use of outside materials. :)

JediTricks
05-29-2005, 08:55 PM
Not really, not at all just as easy. Yoda said "if into the security footage you go, blah blah, blah" then Obi-Wan sees footage of Anakin killing Jedi, then Obi-Wan sees footage of Anakin with the Emperor. Linear events clearly taking place after Mace's death so no, it could not just as easily been from Palps praising Ani after killing MAster Windu.We have no idea if these are linear events or not, we have seen that there is time-shifting in the security system AND that there is editing, yet we don't see Anakin cut down those Jedi and then turn to Palpatine so we KNOW that it isn't a directly linear event (we also don't see Obi-Wan cut to that scene, yet we're given the sense that this is the very next thing Obi-Wan sees, so again, it has to be edited somewhere and could have been edited out of sequence, perhaps even Yoda called up the security footage looking for Palpatine, we simply do not know).

Let's say you're correct, Palpatine went to the temple and gave his blessing to Anakin, why in his office did he bother telling Anakin to do job #1 and then continue on to job #2 if he planned on coming to the Jedi Temple to confer with his new apprentice and give him even less-detailed instructions for job #2? And if he knew it was being recorded, why mention that he's sending Anakin anywhere, and why leave evidence lying around that Palpatine was the Sith Lord when it could have been taken the Senate and used to depose the Chancellor?

stillakid
05-29-2005, 11:35 PM
And if he knew it was being recorded, why mention that he's sending Anakin anywhere, and why leave evidence lying around that Palpatine was the Sith Lord when it could have been taken the Senate and used to depose the Chancellor?


ZING! And I'm subscribing to this thread just so I can see how badly this question gets rationalized away. :cool: Who needs TV when we have this kind of entertainment? :p

2-1B
05-30-2005, 12:43 AM
What are you talking about stillakid, where is this "zing" you refer to ?

In the very next session of Congress, Palpatine openly elaborates on this "plot" of the Jedi and gets applause from the very group of Senators who JediTricks suggests might depose him . . . it's not a secret by any means, plus he even says that the remaining Jedi will be hunted down.

And yes JT, it comes across very clearly to me that the events are linear in that hologram, I believe it was edited together in the movie making process to speed along the information. I don't know what this "time shifting" business is that you refer to. If you were on the opposite side of stillakid here, I suspect you might get called out as rationalizing with a comment like that.

MaquisWarrior
05-30-2005, 01:19 AM
Actually the guards, taped over the Ani/Palpy footage because the Empire is cheap and won't but any more holocrons and the guards just put the holocron without properly rewinding it. So the Ani/Palpy footage was used as an excuse to change security companies to cover up the guards ineptitude...OOPS! THAT WAS HERE AT WORK not on ROTS! Mesa sorry!

stillakid
05-30-2005, 11:03 AM
What are you talking about stillakid, where is this "zing" you refer to ?

In the very next session of Congress, Palpatine openly elaborates on this "plot" of the Jedi and gets applause from the very group of Senators who JediTricks suggests might depose him . . . it's not a secret by any means, plus he even says that the remaining Jedi will be hunted down.
Minus the security footage of Anakin slaughtering children and evil Palpatine commending him for it. Yeah, that always plays well. :rolleyes:

2-1B
05-30-2005, 11:48 AM
Sure it would, considering the only footage we see is that of Anakin engaged in combat vs. lightsaber-ignited Jedi. That can be twisted just as much as Mace's "assassination attempt" on the Chancellor. lol

And during that commendation he tells Anakin to go and bring peace to the Empire. Most of the senators would eat that right up - it ended the war, didn't it ? ;)

stillakid
05-30-2005, 11:13 PM
Sure, they might eat that up. :) But if Palps has mind control over the Senate, then why bother? :confused: Afterall, he declares that the Republic is dead and in it's place is a grand Empire to thunderous applause. Did Palps cause that or was that a result of independent thought on the part of the Senators?

JimJamBonds
05-30-2005, 11:28 PM
It was independant thought Stillakid that resulted in the applause, if not why didn't Bail and Padme clap?

There is a line in ANH (said to Tarkin I belive) who says how will disapline be kept after its been said that the Senate has been disbanded? To which Tarkin says that the reginal govoners along with fear will keep the various systems in check? So at the point in ROTS where Palps is addressing the Senate he still needs it but that will be taken care of down the road.

Jim Jam

2-1B
05-31-2005, 01:50 AM
Independent thought. :)

For several years Palparoo has drummed up a war on both sides and of course the Senate wants it to end . . . make things horrible for them and then offer a way out by forming a "safe and secure society" (his words, not mine) and calling it Empire and yeah, who wouldn't want that ?

And isn't that the very same idea that people are bagging on Lucas for right now as far as the current political climate goes ?

JediTricks
05-31-2005, 05:04 AM
In the very next session of Congress, Palpatine openly elaborates on this "plot" of the Jedi and gets applause from the very group of Senators who JediTricks suggests might depose him . . . it's not a secret by any means, plus he even says that the remaining Jedi will be hunted down.He doesn't mention he's a Sith lord to the Senate, he doesn't mention he is the one who has created the false war and is controlling the Separatists, and he pushes the idea that the Jedi once they have taken out Palpatine will kill the entire Senate even though it's complete bullspit. That doesn't sound particularly "open" about his "plot" to me. Mace's plan originally, which Anakin himself supported and laid the foundation for (and this wasn't a trap on Anakin's part, we're SHOWN this in the movie directly) was that Palpatine was going to be captured and taken before the courts to be exposed as a Sith Lord and charged accordingly, so Mace and Anakin both must at some point have believed this was POSSIBLE.


Sure it would, considering the only footage we see is that of Anakin engaged in combat vs. lightsaber-ignited Jedi. Actually, we see Anakin engaged against Younglings for the most part, and we also see clones killing defenseless Jedi, and there could have been testimony from Senator Bail Organa about what he saw.

2-1B
06-01-2005, 02:33 AM
Oh, maybe Bail will take what he saw and start a rebellion. :p

Seriously though, he could tell the Pro-Palpatine Senate what he saw, but in the end he would just be written off in cahoots with the Jedi, methinks. :(


He doesn't mention he's a Sith lord to the Senate, he doesn't mention he is the one who has created the false war and is controlling the Separatists, and he pushes the idea that the Jedi once they have taken out Palpatine will kill the entire Senate even though it's complete bullspit. That doesn't sound particularly "open" about his "plot" to me.

Of course it doesn't, but you misquoted me. :)

I said he was elaborating on a plot by the Jedi not his own plot. ;)