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View Full Version : "from my point of view, the Jedi are evil" a line from teatime, not battle



JediTricks
05-29-2005, 10:15 PM
Anybody else find that line especially dry in the context of the scene? I know Lucas has those "it'll take a few moments to get the coordinates from the navicomputer" lines in him all the time, but for me that "point of view" line Anakin utters during a short pause in the auction during fearsome bitter lightsaber duel comes off way out of place for me, too philosophical, too genteel, like "perhaps I'm speaking a bit out of turn, but I find parliment's latest export tarrif reforms to be quite intrusive" instead of the ferocity of something like "HE told me enough, he told me YOU killed him!" Maybe it was more of a point-counterpoint type of response, such as "I under you feel that potatoes are delicious, however I believe they are distasteful", but for me it came off far too gutless and wordy for the situation, it seemed out of place I thought, I think that line may stand out for me more than any other in the film, (except possibly "Anakin, you're breaking my heart" :cry: but that's a different ball of wax altogether).

stillakid
05-30-2005, 12:28 AM
We brought this line up in another thread. Not only is it out of place, as you point out, but it is nonsensical to begin with. I think that it is George's way of bluntly trying to make the point that good and evil is a matter of perspective. It is nonsense for Anakin to say in this movie, because the Jedi never did anything to deserve that label. Sure, he thinks that they don't appreciate his powers quite as soon as he wants them to, but that certainly doesn't qualify the term "evil" to be used. Sure, the Jedi tried to overthrow Palpatine, but Anakin is fully aware that Palps is the bad guy and that the Jedi truly have the noblest intentions. Afterall, Anakin didn't join Palps for any lofty political reasons. He joined the bad side for purely selfish reason while at the same time apparently fully aware that he was doing wrong (ie "What have I done?")

So yeah, it's a stupid line with obvious intentions on the the part of the writer, but entirely out of place in nearly every way imaginable.

Bossk77
05-30-2005, 12:49 AM
Agreed it is out of place... the only reasoning i can think of besides fluf and filler verbage is maybe he was trying to make Anakin appear as being more inteligent or a thinker rather than being solely governed by emotions. Given he is no philospher like 3-PO. He could have said "I like Jelly Donuts" in response and gotten the same response from the audience..:neutral:

stillakid
05-30-2005, 12:58 AM
He could have said "I like Jelly Donuts" in response and gotten the same response from the audience..:neutral:

But see, that would have made more sense and fit in better with Anakin's bipolar disorder. :classic:

Bossk77
05-30-2005, 01:11 AM
But see, that would have made more sense and fit in better with Anakin's bipolar disorder. :classic:

Could have been worse... He could have had Turretts, or an obsessive compulsive disorder.... Narcalepsy would have been my choice for him though. :D

2-1B
05-30-2005, 01:22 AM
It does make sense if one considers that Palpatine himself said that earlier in the film, about good being a point of view.

RussUAE
05-30-2005, 03:18 AM
I like it.

After all, Obi Wan comes around by the OT to realise that anything can be true "from a certain point of view". It's a nice link.

JON9000
05-30-2005, 10:24 AM
I like it.

After all, Obi Wan comes around by the OT to realise that anything can be true "from a certain point of view". It's a nice link.
Correctamundo!

I have no difficulty with the exchange. Try watching Excalibur and listing to what King Arthur and whomever he is engaged with in combat say to each other. Two heroic knights fighting each other... the language is supposed to be elevated. Perhaps it fails in this regard as well, but let's not pretend we wanted to hear Obi-wan tell Anakin: "I'm gonna whup your A**, B#$$%!" (Although I couldn't help but expect Mace to lay something like that on Palpy! ) :D

stillakid
05-30-2005, 11:26 AM
It does make sense if one considers that Palpatine himself said that earlier in the film, about good being a point of view.

Not really. Because what did the Jedi ever do that anyone would consider "evil?" :confused: And Anakin only signed on with the Sith in order to get the secret to everlasting life, not because he really thought that Palps was on the side of "good." He just got done slaughtering a bunch of cute little younglings at the bequest of Palpatine. Right after taking Mace out, Anakin wails, "What have I done?!" So categorically, no. Anakin wasn't looking at this entire situation in terms of "gray." He was absolutely aware of which side was good and which was evil and that he chose the side of "evil." So his announcement that he thought the Jedi were "evil" was entirely out of place for that character to spit out. The line is obviously another of George's not too subtle attempts to send a thematic message to the audience. But Padme did it just fine. George should have left it at that.

2-1B
05-30-2005, 01:15 PM
You must have been taking a bathroom break during that scene because Palpatine clearly talks the Jedi down from their lofty perch and slanders their intentions to Anakin, painting a gray area by saying that the Jedi and Sith are alike in almost every way.

As to the specific question of "what did the Jedi ever do that would be considered evil" , Anakin referred to Mace as making an assassination attempt on the Chancellor. His allegiance is to the chancellor and to ending the war (as he tells Obi-Wan earlier) so while he does indeed sign up to save Padme there are also political ideas in there.

stillakid
05-30-2005, 01:35 PM
You must have been taking a bathroom break during that scene because Palpatine clearly talks the Jedi down from their lofty perch and slanders their intentions to Anakin, painting a gray area by saying that the Jedi and Sith are alike in almost every way.
But offering no specifics. Palps says it, but doesn't prove it. Then Anakin learns that Palps is a Sith and he is a big boy and should be able to figure out that the Sith are deceivers. So that "gray" area should automatically be null and void in Anakin's mind as he realizes that Palps is the bad guy. Or is Thick Skull-akin really that dense that he doesn't put 2 and 2 together? :sur:


As to the specific question of "what did the Jedi ever do that would be considered evil" , Anakin referred to Mace as making an assassination attempt on the Chancellor. His allegiance is to the chancellor and to ending the war (as he tells Obi-Wan earlier) so while he does indeed sign up to save Padme there are also political ideas in there.
His allegiance was based on getting the secret to life, not for any political reason. Even as he does this, he KNOWS that he is on the side of evil, so the notion that there is a gray area of "who is good, who is evil" doesn't work with Anakin. He is fully aware that he is choosing to be with the bad guy, ergo his line, "What have I done?" right after disarming Mace. Mace's "assassination" attempt was completely justified and Anakin even knew that. Moreso, Palps wasn't an "unarmed" suspect...he had that Force lightning sh** as a weapon, so Mace had no reason to hesitate with the blade just as Anakin really had no reason to question himself before he lopped off Dooku's head.

Bossk77
05-30-2005, 01:40 PM
Has it ever come to mind that Anakin is very book/technologically smart, but lacks common sense to a large degree. I think that my statment sums the situatation up nicely. He acts on impulse, feeling, and snap judgement, not on common sense. ;)

2-1B
05-30-2005, 01:46 PM
Yeah, otherwise you wouldn't have seen Darth Vader in 1977 because he would have never turned to the Dark Side. :p

JimJamBonds
05-30-2005, 02:04 PM
Has it ever come to mind that Anakin is very book/technologically smart, but lacks common sense to a large degree. I think that my statment sums the situatation up nicely. He acts on impulse, feeling, and snap judgement, not on common sense. ;)

Yup, sounds like a 22ish year old to me.

Jim Jam

Bossk77
05-30-2005, 02:08 PM
Yup, sounds like a 22ish year old to me.

Jim Jam

Anakin or me? lol IF your refering to anakin, he strikes me as a confused intering pubessence 13 year old who should really cut down on his meat intake. lol.

If you refer to me, I am far older than that. lol

JimJamBonds
05-30-2005, 02:15 PM
Sorry about that Bossk I was speaking of everybody's favorite whinney Jedi Anners.

Jim Jam

Bossk77
05-30-2005, 02:17 PM
No worries... I still think Anni acts like a confused 13 year old.

JimJamBonds
05-30-2005, 02:23 PM
No worries... I still think Anni acts like a confused 13 year old.

Well at least he has Padme's love along with the guiding influence of Obi Wan and Palpatine to help keep him 'balanced'....... errrr nevermind.

stillakid
05-30-2005, 11:58 PM
Ok, my son wanted to see this again so we went this afternoon. :) Good times. :)

This time, I paid special attention to this sequence. What appears most important here is not necessarily the "evil" line, but what Anakin says right before it. He says to Obi, "I should've known that the Jedi would attempt to take over" or something to that effect. To which Obi Wan rightly replies that it is Palpatine who is evil, which would justify this "take over." To that, Anakin shouts out that line that he thinks it's the Jedi who are evil.

Okay, now that we have the groundwork laid, the problem is immediately apparent, or should be to anyone really paying attention to this story. It is Anakin's first line which sets the foundation of confusion. He "should've known that the Jedi would take over"? :confused: That's a ridiculous statement to make particularly as some kind of justification for calling the Jedi evil. Anakin at this point is more than well aware more than anyone else (still living) that Palpatine is the evil one. Anakin knows that he has taken the wrong path (ie, "What have I done?!). Anakin was the one to take the information to Mace Windu and even told Palpatine beforehand that he was going to turn him in. Therefore he knows that this was no "take over" as he colors it at this point in the film. He knows that it was a fair "arrest" attempt and that Palpatine would fight back. He knows that Palpatine is a Sith and wouldn't just give up. He knows that the Jedi aren't trying to "take over," but rather keep a Sith Lord from destroying the Republic.

So given all of that, it makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever for Anakin to say, "I should have known that the Jedi would try to take over" and then make the equally nonsensical statement that it's the Jedi who are evil.

I've looked at this from every angle possible and it is simply a case of bad writing. George wanted to shoehorn in some kind of ode to relatively (in regard to good/evil) and this is the best he could do. Only thing is, it doesn't work. Big surprise. :ermm:

JimJamBonds
05-31-2005, 12:09 AM
Its Palps vs. Jedi, the Jedi can't help him, remember Anakin says "I need him!" Also back in AOTC Anakin says that Obi Wan is 'jealous' of his powers, he (Anakin) can only confide in Palps and when Mace tries to "assassinate" the one person he feels can help him Anakin goes over the edge and casts his lot with Sids. When that happens he embraces Sids thoughts on the Jedi and thus they are evil.

Jim Jam.

Bossk77
05-31-2005, 12:47 AM
Ok, my son wanted to see this again so we went this afternoon. :) Good times. :)

This time, I paid special attention to this sequence. What appears most important here is not necessarily the "evil" line, but what Anakin says right before it. He says to Obi, "I should've known that the Jedi would attempt to take over" or something to that effect. To which Obi Wan rightly replies that it is Palpatine who is evil, which would justify this "take over." To that, Anakin shouts out that line that he thinks it's the Jedi who are evil.

Okay, now that we have the groundwork laid, the problem is immediately apparent, or should be to anyone really paying attention to this story. It is Anakin's first line which sets the foundation of confusion. He "should've known that the Jedi would take over"? :confused: That's a ridiculous statement to make particularly as some kind of justification for calling the Jedi evil. Anakin at this point is more than well aware more than anyone else (still living) that Palpatine is the evil one. Anakin knows that he has taken the wrong path (ie, "What have I done?!). Anakin was the one to take the information to Mace Windu and even told Palpatine beforehand that he was going to turn him in. Therefore he knows that this was no "take over" as he colors it at this point in the film. He knows that it was a fair "arrest" attempt and that Palpatine would fight back. He knows that Palpatine is a Sith and wouldn't just give up. He knows that the Jedi aren't trying to "take over," but rather keep a Sith Lord from destroying the Republic.

So given all of that, it makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever for Anakin to say, "I should have known that the Jedi would try to take over" and then make the equally nonsensical statement that it's the Jedi who are evil.

I've looked at this from every angle possible and it is simply a case of bad writing. George wanted to shoehorn in some kind of ode to relatively (in regard to good/evil) and this is the best he could do. Only thing is, it doesn't work. Big surprise. :ermm:

I agree that no matter how you look at it, it comes down to a writing issue that it is too late to address.

2-1B
05-31-2005, 02:42 AM
Actually he knows that Palpatine is to be arrested but when Mace decides later on to not arrest Palps that casts a shadow of doubt since Anakin himself followed that path when he corpsed Dooku and even said "it's not the Jedi way." Then when Mace is about to do the very same thing (as Anakin sees it), he uses that against him.

It may be clear to the audience but that doesn't mean it isn't all clear to certain characters.

JediTricks
05-31-2005, 06:22 AM
Doesn't seem like much of the discussion here is about the line's presentation, which is what I was initially getting at. No matter what else, I still think it's a totally out-of-place way of saying what was said, it fit more with a friendly discussion in someone's apartment than it did during the heat of battle.



Agreed it is out of place... the only reasoning i can think of besides fluf and filler verbage is maybe he was trying to make Anakin appear as being more inteligent or a thinker rather than being solely governed by emotions. Given he is no philospher like 3-PO. He could have said "I like Jelly Donuts" in response and gotten the same response from the audience..:neutral:I disagree, if Lucas wanted to fill that scene with something showing Anakin actually taking a point of view, why couldn't it have been one supported by the plot such as "the Jedi are narrow-minded fools who have squandered their power and have followed a path to destruction, they don't deserve to use the Force anymore" or something akin to that, something that is a philosophical point of view which is actually supported in the prequels, gives Anakin joining the Sith and disregarding Obi-Wan and the Jedi a little more credibility (without having to discount Obi-Wan during ANH), and which is even believable "from a certain point of view"... hell, it would even have given some reason why the prequel Jedi have been lacking in the "wizards" department.



You must have been taking a bathroom break during that scene because Palpatine clearly talks the Jedi down from their lofty perch and slanders their intentions to Anakin, painting a gray area by saying that the Jedi and Sith are alike in almost every way. Except when Palps says this, Anakin totally counters it by pointing out that it's not true, that the Sith think only of themselves while the Jedi are selfless and think only of others.


As to the specific question of "what did the Jedi ever do that would be considered evil" , Anakin referred to Mace as making an assassination attempt on the Chancellor. His allegiance is to the chancellor and to ending the war (as he tells Obi-Wan earlier) so while he does indeed sign up to save Padme there are also political ideas in there.Anakin had originally agreed that Palpatine was an evil Sith that had to be removed from power, it was this belief which drove Mace to Palpatine's office, then Anakin goes to the office and says he needs Palps but doesn't say that Palps is the chancellor and shouldn't be punished, only that he shouldn't be killed because Anakin needs him. Later, Palps says "the Jedi will kill me and then take over the Senate by killing all the senators" and Anakin just agrees but it doesn't make any sense considering what Anakin's deeds and words had been in the film up until that point.



Actually he knows that Palpatine is to be arrested but when Mace decides later on to not arrest Palps that casts a shadow of doubt since Anakin himself followed that path when he corpsed Dooku and even said "it's not the Jedi way." Then when Mace is about to do the very same thing (as Anakin sees it), he uses that against him. Doesn't that prove that Anakin knows that killing Palpatine isn't what the Jedi are about? Or are we supposed to believe that he sees Mace as the reflection of all Jedi and that he somehow believes he missed that part over the last 13 years? (if that's what you're saying, I don't see this in there at this time, but I'll entertain the notion that it's what Lucas is getting at.) IIRC, even while Mace is talking about killing Palpatine, Anakin doesn't say it's wrong, just that he needs him.

2-1B
05-31-2005, 01:53 PM
Anakin tells Mace "it's not the Jedi way" so in that sense Mace was wrong to kill him.

JT I don't think you can quote Anakin's discussion about the Jedi being selfless as proof of anything . . . that's what he's been taught but in other parts of the movie he says that he isn't so sure about the Jedi. And the whole purpose of that Opera Seduction was to CORRUPT Anakin and poison his mind against that which he once believed.

As to the inclusion of Anakin saying that to Obi-Wan in battle . . . so what ? :confused: They're old friends, it's not as if Obi-Wan was fighting Darth Maul and arguing philosophy with Maul. These two have been through a lot together so there is certainly more familiarity and opportunity for discussion.

stillakid
06-01-2005, 01:00 AM
Anakin tells Mace "it's not the Jedi way" so in that sense Mace was wrong to kill him.


No he wasn't. Both Dooku and Palps had that lightning sh** that came out of their hands, so neither of them were ever truly unarmed. These aren't common criminals they have at the end of the lightsaber...these are evil Sith Lords. Anakin was completely justified in killing Dooku just as Mace should never have questioned driving the saber through Palps.

What is really annoying is that Mace hauls back in order to hit Palps with more force. Knowing what we do about lightsabers, that seems like a pretty useless gesture only needed for wielding a metal sword. An energy saber will penetrate just about anything without the user exerting any effort. So all Mace really had to do was thrust forward into Palps's skull. But instead, he lifts the saber up high giving Short Term Memory-akin the movie convenient opportunity to slice Mace's arm off.

2-1B
06-01-2005, 02:35 AM
I agree that Mace was justified in striking against Palps. I was just talking about Anakin's perspective. He wanted him alive and that was a good enough justification to make him stand trial.

As for Dooku, since you mentioned that he was shooting lightning out of his hands . . . well, Ani had already taken care of that threat. :crazed:

stillakid
06-01-2005, 07:27 PM
I agree that Mace was justified in striking against Palps. I was just talking about Anakin's perspective. He wanted him alive and that was a good enough justification to make him stand trial.
Oh. :) So Anakin was just using that line of malarky as justification to Mace to not bisect ye olde Sith? But then he says, "I NEED HIM!" thus giving his motives away. :confused:


As for Dooku, since you mentioned that he was shooting lightning out of his hands . . . well, Ani had already taken care of that threat. :crazed:
I suppose so...but who says it can't come out of other places? :sur: :eek: :smoker:

2-1B
06-02-2005, 02:37 AM
Right, he was trying to use the nobility of the Jedi Code to convince Mace not to clip Palps and when that didn't work, Ani's more immediate concerns were revealed by saying "I need him."

stillakid
06-02-2005, 08:35 AM
Right, he was trying to use the nobility of the Jedi Code to convince Mace not to clip Palps and when that didn't work, Ani's more immediate concerns were revealed by saying "I need him."

Right, which means that Anakin understood the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, which is why he used that tactic first to try to stop Mace from killing Palps ("It's not the Jedi way!") Therefore Anakin clearly understands that the Jedi are not "evil" and that line he spits out later is entirely bogus.

Jayspawn
06-02-2005, 09:39 AM
I think its a great line! Obi-Wan tells him off and Anakin is so twisted at that point -he fires back that quick comment. Hayden says it in such a just way that even he believes it knowing its wrong.

JON9000
06-02-2005, 05:04 PM
It is Anakin's first line which sets the foundation of confusion. He "should've known that the Jedi would take over"? :confused: That's a ridiculous statement to make particularly as some kind of justification for calling the Jedi evil. Anakin at this point is more than well aware more than anyone else (still living) that Palpatine is the evil one. Anakin knows that he has taken the wrong path (ie, "What have I done?!). Anakin was the one to take the information to Mace Windu and even told Palpatine beforehand that he was going to turn him in. Therefore he knows that this was no "take over" as he colors it at this point in the film. He knows that it was a fair "arrest" attempt and that Palpatine would fight back. He knows that Palpatine is a Sith and wouldn't just give up. He knows that the Jedi aren't trying to "take over," but rather keep a Sith Lord from destroying the Republic.

So given all of that, it makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever for Anakin to say, "I should have known that the Jedi would try to take over" and then make the equally nonsensical statement that it's the Jedi who are evil.

Nobody thinks that they themselves are evil. People who are evil will come up with about every rationale you can think of in order to paint the opposing party as "evil" and themselves as "good". Once Anakin goes to the dark side, he must rationalize his naughty actions- which is relatively easy to do- I am defending the republic from a coup, this guy can save Padme, yadda, yadda.

Yes, when Palps puts the moves on Anakin, he understands that the Sith are evil. But notice how clever Palpy is in discussing the Dark Side- the dark side is simply another aspect of the force- one that actually can do good! Save Padme- how could that be bad!? It's the Jedi who call the Sith evil- listen closely to Palps- he is really good.

You don't have to go far in the real world to see this phenomenon at work. We bomb supposedly "evil" people (who are conveniently part of an axis) in order to secure "peace"

darthvyn
06-02-2005, 05:13 PM
well said, jon9000. i was going to forumlate my own response, but you beat me to it, almost to the letter!

stillakid
06-02-2005, 11:32 PM
But notice how clever Palpy is in discussing the Dark Side- the dark side is simply another aspect of the force- one that actually can do good!

True, Palps does say that. But that is all before Anakin threatens to turn the guy in, before Anakin goes to Mace, before Anakin returns and tells Mace that "it's not the Jedi way." I'd buy your argument if Palps said any of that after Anakin decided to turn (to gain the magical knowledge of life)... Anakin would have turned solely because of his fear of losing Padme. Then Palps would have quelled Anakin's doubt of his decision by pulling the old "aspect of the Force" thing. But that isn't why Anakin turned and it isn't why he stayed. He turned to get the secret formula for life (which Palps quickly retracted) and stayed that way because...well, we don't really know, do we? I mean, as soon as Palps retracts the offer, Anakin drops to his knees and robotically pledges himself to evil. :confused:

Anyway, I know what you're getting at, but it doesn't work mainly because of when Palps gives Anakin that "out." But as soon as Palps gives Anakin that line about there being a gray area, Anakin disagrees and then later turns Palps in anyway. So he has clearly decided that it isn't a valid argument at that point so therefore he has no justification for changing his mind on that issue later on.

2-1B
06-03-2005, 02:21 AM
Right, which means that Anakin understood the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, which is why he used that tactic first to try to stop Mace from killing Palps ("It's not the Jedi way!") Therefore Anakin clearly understands that the Jedi are not "evil" and that line he spits out later is entirely bogus.

Not exactly, because Mace's decision to go against that very same code gives Anakin the final seed of doubt in his mind that lets him go off and make that blow since Mace is about to do the "wrong" thing.

2-1B
06-03-2005, 02:42 AM
Anakin disagrees and then later turns Palps in anyway. So he has clearly decided that it isn't a valid argument at that point so therefore he has no justification for changing his mind on that issue later on.

I don't think it's as "clear" as that . . . there is much confusion in the guy's head and he even says to Palps "I will discover the truth of all this." I don't see it as Anakin having a clear way of seeing it because while Yes he does want to do the right thing and investigate this Sith Lord Nonsense, at the same time Palps has been his friend and never hurt him before so there's doubt there, not to mention what was already put in his head by Palps earlier.
By turning Palps over to Shaft Windu he is trying to tow the company line and do the right thing. But since he had the decency to not whack Palpatine right away only to see Mace decide to do the EXACT OPPOSITE (remember, Anakin didn't see the whole exchange earlier when Mace just planned on arresting Sid) then everything came to a head and he made a decision without all the facts. The wrong decision, it turned out. lol lol lol

stillakid
06-03-2005, 08:35 AM
Not exactly, because Mace's decision to go against that very same code gives Anakin the final seed of doubt in his mind that lets him go off and make that blow since Mace is about to do the "wrong" thing.

But it wasn't the "wrong" thing really, as discussed. These Sith carry blue lightning in their toolbelts, so Mace should never have hesitated in the first place.



I don't think it's as "clear" as that . . . there is much confusion in the guy's head and he even says to Palps "I will discover the truth of all this."
Oh yeah, that line. I've been meaning to bring that up. Another :confused: moment. Palps JUST got done admitting to Anakin that he's the Sith Lord and that he intends on keeping power. That should be all the "truth" anyone needs. Anakin even ignites his lightsaber AND informs Palps that he's turning him in.

So it should be all settled then...but nooooooooooo, George goes and has Anakin say something out of left field again, that he's going to find out the truth about this. What the Fu**?! :confused: :eek: :confused: Where the hell did that come from? He JUST got done learning the "truth to all of this" and now he claims to need more information apparently? From whom? About what? Another nonsensical statement from Anakin. The hits just keep coming.

The fact is that the "truth" was laid out for Anakin more than anyone else, but he is the one uttering ridiculous statements at random in George's vain attempt to illustrate "confusion" in Anakin. It makes no sense. Had Ani really had "confusion" about Palp's Sith Lord status, he wouldn't have been so eager to turn the guy in. I mean, the only reason he saves Palps's life is to get the magic secret to save Padme. Nothing more, nothing less. George should have left it at that. Anakin could have gone off to become a bad guy as a selfish individual. But George wanted to also add in a layer of "who's really good, who's really bad?" to the storyline....to the character arc...which failed miserably.

JON9000
06-03-2005, 12:15 PM
True, Palps does say that. But that is all before Anakin threatens to turn the guy in, before Anakin goes to Mace, before Anakin returns and tells Mace that "it's not the Jedi way." I'd buy your argument if Palps said any of that after Anakin decided to turn (to gain the magical knowledge of life)... Anakin would have turned solely because of his fear of losing Padme. Then Palps would have quelled Anakin's doubt of his decision by pulling the old "aspect of the Force" thing. But that isn't why Anakin turned and it isn't why he stayed. He turned to get the secret formula for life (which Palps quickly retracted) and stayed that way because...well, we don't really know, do we? I mean, as soon as Palps retracts the offer, Anakin drops to his knees and robotically pledges himself to evil. :confused:

I think when Anakin went off to see Padme, it totally set him off- he went to save his only chance (Palps) of saving her. There was a lot of wishy-washyness on his part leading up to that point, though, no doubt.

I have a problem with the retraction as well, but it is really only a minor quibble. I can see why it is there- to show how darned lousy Palps is. Trick Anakin into killing a Jedi Master- trick him over to the dark side. I can live with it, and it makes sense enough for me, although I think Anakin's reaction would have been more in line with betrayal than absolute subservience at that point.

Let's face it, after Anakin killed Mace, his days as a Jedi were over.


Anyway, I know what you're getting at, but it doesn't work mainly because of when Palps gives Anakin that "out." But as soon as Palps gives Anakin that line about there being a gray area, Anakin disagrees and then later turns Palps in anyway. So he has clearly decided that it isn't a valid argument at that point so therefore he has no justification for changing his mind on that issue later on.

I don't remember that line- I've only seen it twice :(

2-1B
06-04-2005, 03:00 AM
Anakin gave a whole speech to Obi-Wan about what a friend Palps has been to him for 15 years or whatever, so when it was revealed that Palps was the Sith Lord his instinct was to draw down on him but Palps had already nibbled on his ear about the possibility of saving Padme and come on, that's his friend in front of him ! lol

So while yes, Anakin knows that the Sith are evil, he didn't think his buddy was one and he actually did the right thing by going to Mace.

I didn't mind Anakin saying he would discover the truth of all this, it showed how torn up he was about whom to ally with.

You know, when compared to his relationship with Obi-Wan it makes it even more tragic. The reaction he had to Obi-Wan on Mustafar is the one he SHOULD have had towards Palps and the calmer approach he took to Palps was the way he should have dealt with Obi-Wan.

Those crazy Sith Lords, always tricking us. lol lol lol lol lol

Darth Spectre
06-07-2005, 11:35 AM
I agree that Anakin's statement during the duel is not logical, and certainly cannot be supported by real evidence. What might be overlooked is the fact that Anakin is no longer torn between sides (though obviously inside there must be some regret still). He has made his bed and must lie in it now. He crossed the line and can't go back again (despite what ROTJ seems to imply). Anakin MUST believe that the Jedi are evil. That he acted on the behalf of the Republic's better interests. Or else, he would simply be a selfish, arrogant, short-sighted kid who betrayed everyone and everything he ever stood for (which he did, of course). The explanation is really in Obi-Wan's statement to Luke in ROTJ about "many of the truths we cling to greatly depend on our POV." That is exactly what Anakin is doing. He is clinging to those beliefs because they justify or excuse his fall. So I think the statement, though awkward, fits.

I also agree regarding the irony of how Anakin dealt with Obi-Wan as compared to how he dealt with Palpatine. Though to be fair, Anakin in his current state has just seen Obi-Wan appear from Padme's ship, thinking that she has brought Obi-Wan there on purpose to kill him, and though it didn't appear in the movie, the book also shows that Palpatine was implying that Padme & Obi-Wan were lovers, so all those factors do make it more believable that Anakin was so aggressive with Obi-Wan. Plus, simply put, unlike when he dealt with Palpatine, Anakin is no longer teetering between which side to talk. He again has decided. So Obi-Wan is an obstacle he apparently has to overcome.

DarthAngel
06-09-2005, 12:06 AM
Is the line out of place, yeah a little. Could George have done better, probably. I don't see any of you though coming up with an alternative to what Anakin could have said to Obi-Wan at that point.

Darth Specter makes a good point, the novel, and the graphic novel portray the relationship between Padme and Obi-Wan as if though they are lovers. And if you remember correctly, at one point in the movie, Anakin question's Padme if anyone was at the apartment because he senses a familiar presence, or did you all miss that part because you were too busy tearing the movie to shreds?

Furthermore if you notice, when Anakin and Padme are having there little powwow on Mustafar, Anakin goes from being very happy about seeing Padme, to irritated the minute she mentions Obi-Wan. Then if you notice (again this is one of those subtle moves that an actor makes, but again I can see how a lot of you wouldn't notice this) Anakin goes from looking at Padme to looking at her ship, and that is when he sees Obi-Wan. So again now he is conflicted cause he wants to believe his wife, but he also saw what Mace was about to do to Palpatine, not to mention the fact that Anakin knows how powerful a Jedi can be.

So now I ask all of you if you were like Anakin, and on one side you had someone who not only believed in you, but who could give you everything that you ever wanted (whom you ultimately side with), while at the same time you are being confronted with conflicting stories from people who say they are your friends (one whom you fight to the death, another who goes against everything you thought you stood for), would you not state what you felt was obvious ('from my point of view the Jedi are evil), or would you stand there in the middle of battle trying to come up with some line that was going to make people think (that is of course after he/she/it kicks your @$$)? I highly doubt that many of you would stop the fight just to wow your opponent with a whopper of a line.

Give it up, just accept the movies for what they are and be thankful that we got these movies to enjoy.

You can all hate me now, I don't care.

stillakid
06-09-2005, 12:56 AM
Is the line out of place, yeah a little. Could George have done better, probably. I don't see any of you though coming up with an alternative to what Anakin could have said to Obi-Wan at that point.

Darth Specter makes a good point, the novel, and the graphic novel portray the relationship between Padme and Obi-Wan as if though they are lovers. And if you remember correctly, at one point in the movie, Anakin question's Padme if anyone was at the apartment because he senses a familiar presence, or did you all miss that part because you were too busy tearing the movie to shreds?

Furthermore if you notice, when Anakin and Padme are having there little powwow on Mustafar, Anakin goes from being very happy about seeing Padme, to irritated the minute she mentions Obi-Wan. Then if you notice (again this is one of those subtle moves that an actor makes, but again I can see how a lot of you wouldn't notice this) Anakin goes from looking at Padme to looking at her ship, and that is when he sees Obi-Wan. So again now he is conflicted cause he wants to believe his wife, but he also saw what Mace was about to do to Palpatine, not to mention the fact that Anakin knows how powerful a Jedi can be.

So now I ask all of you if you were like Anakin, and on one side you had someone who not only believed in you, but who could give you everything that you ever wanted (whom you ultimately side with), while at the same time you are being confronted with conflicting stories from people who say they are your friends (one whom you fight to the death, another who goes against everything you thought you stood for), would you not state what you felt was obvious ('from my point of view the Jedi are evil), or would you stand there in the middle of battle trying to come up with some line that was going to make people think (that is of course after he/she/it kicks your @$$)? I highly doubt that many of you would stop the fight just to wow your opponent with a whopper of a line.

Give it up, just accept the movies for what they are and be thankful that we got these movies to enjoy.

You can all hate me now, I don't care.

Oh, we don't hate you. :) But you're assuming that you're much more clever than the rest of us because you were "smart enough" to notice the subtleties happening onscreen, assuming none of the rest of didn't. And then you take that assumption and use it in an attempt to discredit our well drawn conclusions regarding the topic which, whether mentioned or not, used all those clever "subtleties" that you were so amazing to notice yourself. I put "subtleties" in quotes because those moments weren't so subtle at all. You'd have to be asleep to not notice what was going on, and apparently, some of the people who claim that the Prequels are 100% AOkay were takin' a snooze at some point. :dead: Well, either that or that Extra Large Coke for just a quarter more drove them to the boy's room during those "subtle" story moments that apparently only you were smart enough to notice. :rolleyes:

stillakid
06-09-2005, 10:26 AM
Is the line out of place, yeah a little. Could George have done better, probably. I don't see any of you though coming up with an alternative to what Anakin could have said to Obi-Wan at that point.

But more importantly, writing and rewriting takes a bit more than altering a line of dialogue here and there. The problem with that line in particular is that the foundation of Anakin's character wasn't set up correctly...or at least in any way that would make such a line applicable. So perhaps one day I or someone else will tackle the Prequels in a rewrite, it will take more than changing one single line to make the necessary changes. :)

JediTricks
06-10-2005, 10:08 PM
Is the line out of place, yeah a little. Could George have done better, probably. I don't see any of you though coming up with an alternative to what Anakin could have said to Obi-Wan at that point.I did just that in my second post in this thread: 404363 And I feel my line is even better supported by the story AND some of Vader's motivations in the OT, I explained that there.


Darth Specter makes a good point, the novel, and the graphic novel portray the relationship between Padme and Obi-Wan as if though they are lovers. And if you remember correctly, at one point in the movie, Anakin question's Padme if anyone was at the apartment because he senses a familiar presence, or did you all miss that part because you were too busy tearing the movie to shreds? You're a writer, you tell me, if the movie requires the novel to explain characterizations, isn't that a sign of BAD writing on the movie's part?

And so what if Ani sensed that presence, what does that prove from the movie's point of view? Nothing at all in regards to this discussion, it only works when a second writer makes an after-the-fact decision to add an element that Lucas didn't think to include when he originally came up with the story. Perhaps it was you who was too busy looking at the novel instead of actually watching the movie.

Bossk77
06-11-2005, 11:27 PM
I did just that in my second post in this thread: 404363 And I feel my line is even better supported by the story AND some of Vader's motivations in the OT, I explained that there.

You're a writer, you tell me, if the movie requires the novel to explain characterizations, isn't that a sign of BAD writing on the movie's part?

And so what if Ani sensed that presence, what does that prove from the movie's point of view? Nothing at all in regards to this discussion, it only works when a second writer makes an after-the-fact decision to add an element that Lucas didn't think to include when he originally came up with the story. Perhaps it was you who was too busy looking at the novel instead of actually watching the movie.

I agree with Tricks, you have to keep book context to books, and movie context to movies.... If you cross them over you cause all kind of problems and conectivitiy issues. From book Hope to movie Hope your fine, but from book SIth to movie hope. you will have issues as Tricks stated, but from a movie progression standpoint it works fine.

DarthAngel
06-12-2005, 12:47 AM
JT you are absolutely right. If a movie needs the novel adaptation to expand on characterization, then you are in a heap of trouble. And I will agree with you that George could have done a few re-writes before settling on the script. But for what it's worth, the line isn't entirely out of place. Granted the line could have been placed in another scene. If Anakin would have made that comment at any other point in the film, it would just show how conflicted he is about his feelings for the Jedi. Having the line come out almost near the end of the movie, just drives it on home that Palpatine and the Dark Side have really twisted Anakin's point of view, that you leave the theater with the sense that there is no hope for Anakin...only to go home and watch ROTJ and realize oh wait there is.

I am by no means trying to connect ROTS novel to ANH the movie, I was just agreeing with Darth Specter. The novel, and the comic book of ROTS show us things that George didn't even dive into when he was filming. That is all I am saying.

chewie
06-12-2005, 11:19 AM
Everything regarding Anakin considering the Jedi evil or imagining himself bringing peace and justice to the galaxy flies in the face of the reason for his betrayal in the movie. As soon as he found out Palpatine was Sidious, Anakin knew that the chancellor was the one who caused all the problems to begin with. He only turned to the dark side to attempt to save Padme, but even that was taken from him mere moments into his betrayal once Sidious admitted he didn't have such a power.

Self-delusion or whatever its going to be considered doesn't cut it in Vader's case. There is no way to be blind to reality in a situation where you spend years out at war only to find out it was caused by the man you betrayed everybody over. Anakin was a smart person. Capable of creating droids and other highly technical machinery even as a child. Darth Vader was intelligently scheming in ANH from the moment he stepped into the Tantive V and ordered the false transmission to be sent, to his trap to lure Luke to save his rebel friends on Bespin in TESB. How could Anakin be so dumb by the end of ROTS? Make him evil, sure, but at least show that he knows he's doing evil instead of being led around like a puppy who thinks himself righteous in duty.

This being part of the prequels, I really didn't expect much of anything from part three after seeing the other two. Its just a shame that the story could be so sloppy 22 years after the original movies left the theaters.

JediTricks
06-13-2005, 12:41 AM
JT you are absolutely right. If a movie needs the novel adaptation to expand on characterization, then you are in a heap of trouble. And I will agree with you that George could have done a few re-writes before settling on the script.I'm right? In the immortal words of Darth Vader, "yippee!" ;) (that's one of my old sig-lines)


But for what it's worth, the line isn't entirely out of place. Granted the line could have been placed in another scene. If Anakin would have made that comment at any other point in the film, it would just show how conflicted he is about his feelings for the Jedi. Having the line come out almost near the end of the movie, just drives it on home that Palpatine and the Dark Side have really twisted Anakin's point of view, that you leave the theater with the sense that there is no hope for Anakin...only to go home and watch ROTJ and realize oh wait there is. I dunno, you yourself point out that it would have fit better in another part of the film, I wouldn't have bought it there that much either but specifically the tone anywhere else would have made it seem less out of place than it does here, which was the original point of this thread, the way the tone of the line is given seems sedate and overly-philosophical for a battle of this magnitude.


Chewie, you have some great points, that's how I felt as well, confused that this Anakin we're shown would make all these choices that come artificially out of the script rather than naturally out of the character - saving Padme is his reason to chuck everything he believes in yet he tries to kill her, and after just telling her he did all this to save her life no less??? Too often with our lead character Anakin in ROTS I felt like that, like he makes this outlandish and stupid choice that flies in the face of what he just knew or did and it never tracks for me.

2-1B
06-13-2005, 02:05 AM
He didn't "try" to kill her specifically, 'cause if he truly wanted to he could have done so. Rather, now that's he's trapped in that Sith frame of mind, the whole "you're with me or against me" and "don't turn against me" types of thought . . . it leads to this paranoia which explodes when he sees Obi-Wan peering at him from the ship.

Darth Anakin can't really trust anybody anymore. lol

JediTricks
06-13-2005, 02:43 AM
He didn't "try" to kill her specifically, 'cause if he truly wanted to he could have done so. Rather, now that's he's trapped in that Sith frame of mind, the whole "you're with me or against me" and "don't turn against me" types of thought . . . it leads to this paranoia which explodes when he sees Obi-Wan peering at him from the ship.

Darth Anakin can't really trust anybody anymore. lol
So if he didn't TRY to kill her, what was he doing, and why would he believe she was dead, why did he believe the Emp when he said Ani killed her out of anger?

2-1B
06-13-2005, 03:41 AM
Just because she died from the attack does not mean that it was his original intention.

Therein lies the tragedy of his Fall. In trying to save her, it was the way in which he went about it that led to her death. Tragically Beautiful. :cry:

JediTricks
06-14-2005, 08:47 PM
So he strangled her to save her? No, that's not what you're saying. So why did he strangle her then, what WERE his intentions if not to kill her, and where in the on-screen evidence will we find this?

stillakid
06-14-2005, 10:54 PM
So he strangled her to save her? No, that's not what you're saying. So why did he strangle her then, what WERE his intentions if not to kill her, and where in the on-screen evidence will we find this?

Right, point being, Anakin got po'd at Padme for allegedly bringing Obi Wan on the trip to Mustafar...he chokes her out of anger to kill her for her lack of loyalty...she dies...ergo, the entire reason for him to join Palpatine is gone (but it was before as we all know from when Palps retracted his offer). But anyway, that aside, this whole thing is negated when Darth asks if Padme is okay. It's a confusing millieu of character motivation for sure. :crazed:

2-1B
06-15-2005, 02:04 AM
So why did he strangle her then, what WERE his intentions if not to kill her, and where in the on-screen evidence will we find this?

He strangled her because she was the reason he went off to do this stuff but it appeared afterall that she was a "Liar" and that she was "with him (Obi-Wan)" and that she "brought him here to kill" him. So, angry and feeling betrayed, he lashed out and choked her because he has allowed himself to get sucked into this Dark Side thing . . . did he plan to kill her ? I say No. If he absolutely wanted to, he wouldn't have let go as Obi-Wan was yelling for him to do so. It's not like Obi-Wan was talking any sense into Anakin, considering the two former-friends were slapping their lightsticks against each other a few moments later. :)

I don't expect you to agree with my opinion here but the parts I put in quotes was direct dialogue from the movie which helps explain why I feel like I do. :)

One more thing I'd like to add, the fact that Vader DOES freak out (in the suit) at the thought of Padme dying is further proof that he actually DIDN'T want to kill her. Take that, Maddox. :p

JediTricks
06-15-2005, 09:21 PM
He strangled her because she was the reason he went off to do this stuff but it appeared afterall that she was a "Liar" and that she was "with him (Obi-Wan)" and that she "brought him here to kill" him. So, angry and feeling betrayed, he lashed out and choked her because he has allowed himself to get sucked into this Dark Side thing . . . did he plan to kill her ? I say No.And to that, I say only respond with this: 408783

it shouldn't take an in-depth analysis to come to that conclusion. In a movie such as this, the reaction and understanding of a character's actions and emotions should be immediate, and dialogue and on-screen events should be support that. This is one of my greatest contentions about the prequels, that if we have to talk it out to figure something out, if we have to fill in a lot of blanks to get there, the movie's plot isn't doing its job - I find that infinitely frustrating.

The explanation of my reasoning is in that post, and of course in my "it's ok to feel prequels aren't SW" thread.

Darth Spectre
06-17-2005, 12:13 PM
Going back to Anakin's mindset as a whole, I think it is important to remember that people almost never think they are doing the wrong thing or "being evil". They have reasons for doing this or that, and they think it justifies their actions, even if 90% of humanity would look at the situation and go "Uh, no. You're wrong and doing bad things." We know Anakin's rationale for betraying the Jedi and making that "Jedi are evil" statement don't make sense really, but again, he has given in to the dark side now. His thinking is different, and he needs to be able to justify his actions and the reasons for them at least to himself.

Anakin surely didn't think he had killed Padme on the spot, since he said he felt that she was alive. But, clearly since he had been choking her windpipe, it was believable that he caused wounds to her that led to her death. And it works as irony, since his whole turn was supposedly to prevent her from dying in childbirth and in the end, his actions were the reason she did die in childbirth.

JON9000
06-18-2005, 12:00 PM
So he strangled her to save her? No, that's not what you're saying. So why did he strangle her then, what WERE his intentions if not to kill her, and where in the on-screen evidence will we find this?

Guys, let me draw an analogy to another movie- LA Confidential- Bud loves Lynn, Bud thinks she betrayed him, he beats her about the face, and is later sorry he did it.

Anakin loves Padme, he thinks she betrayed him by selling him out to Obi-wan, he chokes her even though he still loves her, and later still wants her to be okay.

I do not think at its heart this is a very big stretch. That is the nature of the dark side- full blown emotion, running boiling or freezing.