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stillakid
05-29-2005, 11:55 PM
Anakin seems pretty P.O.'d at Obers at the end of ROTS. He even goes as far as to hiss out the words, "I hate you!" :mad: as he burns.

So we'll give ol' Georgy-poo the benefit of the doubt and say that Anakin is 100% justified in being "upset" with Obers for:

A) holding him back,
B) not getting him on the Council,
C) keeping him from saving mommie,
D) being too "overly critical,"
E) not trusting Palpatine
F) turning Padme against him (Anakin)


Okay, so nice list there, eh? :ermm: So here's the question: if Anakin is this pi$4ed off at Obi the very last time he lays his beady little yellow eyes on him, then wouldn't we expect a far harsher reaction from Darth Vader when he realize that Obi Wan is on the Death Star in Episode IV? I mean, he doesn't lay out the fine china or anything, but he isn't exactly seething either. I mean, for cryin' out loud, Obers did all that stuff up above (A through F) and then cut his legs and other arm off! :eek: By Anakin's caliente mood, Obers might as well just have cut his wee-wee off too. :sur:

Sure, 20 years (or whatever the F'ck it is now) has gone by so maybe Vader has cooled off a bit, but looking back over their reunion tour on the Death Star, there is a sense of lingering "rage" that is missing given all that Obi apparently did to wrong our lil' Ani-poo.

The line's essentially go like this:


VADER
When I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the Master.

and


Vader
Your powers are weak, old man!

and


Vader
You should not have come back!

Does Vader's reaction to Obi Wan in ANH seem far too tame to anyone else given all that Anakin has to apparently "hate" Obers for? No questions about Padme? No goading. No comments about getting left for dead on Mustafar. Nothing at all to "connect" the two trilogies together. :confused:

Kidhuman
05-30-2005, 01:16 AM
Over 20 ywars, his hatred is still brewing. One thing Anakin learned from Mustafar was too most likely control his anger during a fight. It nearly cost him his life, his arrogance did. By staying more level headed and using the force as an ally, he is able to defeat Obi-Wan the second time around.

darko666
05-30-2005, 01:26 AM
By staying more level headed and using the force as an ally, he is able to defeat Obi-Wan the second time around.

surprising, since Obi-Wan had the classic spin around move. no jedi or sith can match that skill. but your answer does make sense. Vader became stronger in the force throughout the years and when he finally confronted Obi for the last time, he was more patient and content with the force. so as you stated, he was letting the force guide him other than his feelings. hs feelings might have lead him into another defeat.

2-1B
05-30-2005, 01:40 AM
Well, Obi-Wan did have a hand in that "victory" by Vader since he stood there and let himself be cut down for the greater good. :p

Sith Lord 0498
05-30-2005, 07:59 AM
Even before the prequels, I believed that Darth Vader's connection to the Dark Side and the source of his immense hatred came from self-hatred. He knows he's done horrible, wrong things, and he hates himself so much for it. He's fallen into an endless cycle with the Dark Side that he believes there's no getting out of.

Now, Vader hasn't quite come to terms with this yet in Revenge of the Sith, and he's still looking to blame everyone else for his choices. Hence, his immense hatred of Obi-Wan and his declaration of "I hate you!!"

By the time A New Hope comes around, Darth Vader has lived with his choices for 19 years, and I think he has a better understanding of his fate. He realizes that he made the wrong choice. Now, he wallows in self-pity and self-hatred. Notice that the OT Vader doesn't go around blaming others for his situation, but he does bemoan about how "it's too late for me" and how he can't change what's happened.

With that rationale, it's very believable that Vader would not be some raving lunatic when confronting Obi-Wan on the Death Star.

stillakid
05-30-2005, 10:31 AM
See, I think that the disconnect between the Prequel and the OT is that the OT Vader didn't get that angry at Obi Wan. Obi Wan was just the last of his prey after he "helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights." Or at least Obi was in the way at some point as he tried to save him ("Obi Wan once thought as you do.") We never really get the sense that Obi Wan tried to "save" Anakin, at least not enough to warrant that line of dialogue.

In any case, Vader's reasoning for going bezerk should never have hinged so much on Obi Wan to the point that he'd seeth, "I hate you!" It just doesn't jive with the Vader we all thought we knew and loved.

2-1B
05-30-2005, 12:10 PM
Why do people have to inflate their own opinions by saying "we" instead of "I" ? :confused:

Not just you stillakid, this isn't an attack on your comment but just a general statement. Like in other posts on these forums when people review something and say "this makes you feel this way" or something like that.

Devo
05-30-2005, 03:05 PM
As I was saying in another thread I don't get why Anakin 'hates' Obi-wan by the end of ROTS. I don't think it was built up convincingly. In that thread SithLord 0498's last word to me was that Obi-wan had just cut off his legs and left him a torso. I'm not even convinced that that is reason enough to hate Obi-wan. Sure there'd be an initial emotional outburst of rage (which might explain why he 'said' "I hate you!!") but I don't think it could be considered to be 'real' hatred once rationality took over again. Surely Vaders attitude should then be "he beat me, fair enough, but it'll be different next time". But no hatred, if Vader also takes into account the last conversation they had while on good terms, their prior offscreen and onscreen adventures etc etc.

Its really tough to think about actually because if I am to be convinced that Anakin has good reason to hate Obi-wan then maybe Obi-wan would have to be portrayed as a complete wa*ker - and I don't want that. I just think it would have been better had the "i hate you" line been left out or replaced.

As to Vader and his dialogue in ANH. I suppose he could be seething with hatred for Obi-wan and he just is more adept at disguising or curbing it having had 20 years to mature. Or maybe the healing power of time made him hate Obi-wan a little bit less than he used to. He did express gladness (if thats a word) that Obi-wan was dead in the line "this will be a day long remembered - it has seen the end of kenobi and will soon see the end of the rebellion" and was certainly not hesitant in cutting him down once Obi-wan relinquished the fight.

good shot jansen
05-30-2005, 03:39 PM
anakin allows his hatred and fear to cloud his judgment in attack of the clones and revenge of the sith. when vader confronts obi-wan on the death star he has learned to control these impulses. he even commends luke on bespin by saying "you have learned to control your fear, obi-wan has taught you well.

obi-wan during his encounter with anakin on mustephar (sp?)admits his failure regarding this. he tells anakin that he has failed him. anakin's blurting out that he hates obi-wan is driectly related to how he never learned to control his fear and anger, and that is indeed how obi-wan failed him. obi-wan admits this failure to luke in return of the jedi. ithought i could train him as yoda had trained me, but i was wrong.

after seeing the movie for a 2nd time (today), i am actually better satified with the bridge from the prequels to the ot. there were subtle references, that i had missed the 1st time around. i now feel that gl, actually did a good job of completing the circle of the saga.

The Overlord Returns
05-30-2005, 04:58 PM
See, I think that the disconnect between the Prequel and the OT is that the OT Vader didn't get that angry at Obi Wan. Obi Wan was just the last of his prey after he "helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights." Or at least Obi was in the way at some point as he tried to save him ("Obi Wan once thought as you do.") We never really get the sense that Obi Wan tried to "save" Anakin, at least not enough to warrant that line of dialogue.

In any case, Vader's reasoning for going bezerk should never have hinged so much on Obi Wan to the point that he'd seeth, "I hate you!" It just doesn't jive with the Vader we all thought we knew and loved.

The Vader we all know and love does not yet "exist" even at the end of ROTS. His cold, calculated ways are honed over 18 years. The Vader we see in ROTS is a young, rage filled Vader who has just opened himself up to the full power of the darkside. He's overwhelmed, borderline insane. He's also just been chopped to bits and left for dead in intense pain by his "brother". I'd say "I hate you" is quite appropriate. 20 years is a long time. Violent rage turns into cold malice as one grows older, and I would think it is safe to assume that Vader has done a fair bit of "moving forward" in those twenty years.

Bel-Cam Jos
05-30-2005, 05:19 PM
I believe that the phrase "I hate you!" had never been said in a SW film before ROTS. It sounds immature to me, which makes Anakin's exclamation all that more appropriate. Anakin Skywalker, even over 20 years old, is immature. With his feelings, with his experience, with his attitude. Keep in mind, he's only a little removed from a nine-year old wiz kid. Give a pre-teenager a million dollars and he'll act a little crazy; Anakin just received the knowledge that he was powerful and Chosen.

Darth Vader, on the other hand, has "matured" over time. Isn't the reason why Vader was such an awesome villian was his cool, calculating presence? Could he have been an angry, raving comic book-type villian? Yes, but then he wouldn't have been "Vader."

Rocketboy
05-30-2005, 05:37 PM
Why does Anakin scream "I hate you?"

Because screaming "I love you" would have been just plain silly.

Bacta Beast
05-30-2005, 05:55 PM
Over 20 ywars, his hatred is still brewing. One thing Anakin learned from Mustafar was too most likely control his anger during a fight. It nearly cost him his life, his arrogance did. By staying more level headed and using the force as an ally, he is able to defeat Obi-Wan the second time around.


But He didn't defeat him!

Bossk77
05-30-2005, 06:15 PM
All i have to say is dont read to far into the acting from ep3 and ep4. You have to realize that 4 was filmed first without any notion that there would be prequals. Lucas haddent even felt that angle out yet. It is really a matter of would Lucas change the interaction between obi and vader on the Death Star if the series was filmed ep 1-6 in cronological order. There-in lyes the answer to the question.. and only Lucas knows the answer.

Imperial Monarche
05-30-2005, 07:31 PM
See, I think that the disconnect between the Prequel and the OT is that the OT Vader didn't get that angry at Obi Wan. Obi Wan was just the last of his prey after he "helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights." Or at least Obi was in the way at some point as he tried to save him ("Obi Wan once thought as you do.") We never really get the sense that Obi Wan tried to "save" Anakin, at least not enough to warrant that line of dialogue.

In any case, Vader's reasoning for going bezerk should never have hinged so much on Obi Wan to the point that he'd seeth, "I hate you!" It just doesn't jive with the Vader we all thought we knew and loved.

You have to remember, when Anakin was cut down by obi-wan, 15 years (or so) worth of heartache and anger have built up to the boiling point, where the man he looked to as a father figure had just cut off his limbs and was going to leave him there to die. He was still a kid, in some sense. His reaction to his former master is natural. Yes, he is extemely p.o.'d with Obi because he had held him back and all that stuff you said, but he also said something to the fact that he knew it was for his own good (or something like that). It's just like any father and son relationship, the son wants to go out and do all these things that his father knows is not good for him Take this for example: Son wants to go out with his friends to cruise for the night, but dad knows, from past experience prolly, that his friends may want to go drinking, or smoking weed or whatever so his father says no. Son's gonna be mad, but deep down he knows his father loves him and knows he's just looking out for him. It's the same with Anakin. But, when Obi-Wan leaves Anakin for dead, he thinks that Obi never really cared about him (which isn't true) and truly hates him.

Fast-foward 20 years and alot of hatred and anger simmered down, he has his rematch with Obi. By all means, he should be cussing him out and really giving him a piece of his mind. But, he doesn't. The angry "I hate you!" Anakin was the immature 23 yr. old. The Darth Vader in the classic trilogy is older and more mature and able to control his anger.

scruffziller
05-30-2005, 08:51 PM
I basically see this like a high school reunion. In school, you hate the people that picked on you, even the teachers who didn't think that you would amount to anything. If you really had something against them, in 20 years it would be all about the "showing them up." "Ha, I'm better than you".... etc. Which Vader does.- "Your powers are week old man!!!!":evil:

Kidhuman
05-31-2005, 01:15 AM
But He didn't defeat him!

To his knowledge Vader defeated him. To our knowledge Obi-Wan lived on in "the spirit world" by giving himslef to the force.



As I was saying in another thread I don't get why Anakin 'hates' Obi-wan by the end of ROTS. I don't think it was built up convincingly. In that thread SithLord 0498's last word to me was that Obi-wan had just cut off his legs and left him a torso. I'm not even convinced that that is reason enough to hate Obi-wan. Sure there'd be an initial emotional outburst of rage (which might explain why he 'said' "I hate you!!") but I don't think it could be considered to be 'real' hatred once rationality took over again. Surely Vaders attitude should then be "he beat me, fair enough, but it'll be different next time". But no hatred, if Vader also takes into account the last conversation they had while on good terms, their prior offscreen and onscreen adventures etc etc.


Screaming I hate you to Obi-Wan. Anakin had no idea what was to become of him. He himself said that he felt Padme alive after he was in the suit. In his eyes, he was going to die on Mustafar. All he wanted was to save Padme and he couldnt because he bcame an amputee there. He was defeated and couldnt save his wife(not that he could anyway). He failed his wife, himself and his new master, something he wasnt supposed to do becuase after all. he was the chosen one.

JediTricks
05-31-2005, 04:31 AM
Well, Obi-Wan did have a hand in that "victory" by Vader since he stood there and let himself be cut down for the greater good. :pThat was the point I was going to make.

In ANH and how Obi-Wan spoke of Vader throughout the trilogy, it seemed like the 2 were samurai warriors, or shaolin monks, where Vader turned from the cause and found Obi-Wan and his beliefs distasteful and beneath him, not something he loathed at all, just mainly that they were a bug to his self-important, superiority-believing character. The Jedi were a threat but it never seemed like he tapped into a core belief of hatred, just his disrespect for the Jedi and his former master.



As I was saying in another thread I don't get why Anakin 'hates' Obi-wan by the end of ROTS.I don't get why Anakin hates him either, or the Jedi really, especially since minutes before he became a Sith he was dumping on them left and right, and then we're shown an Anakin who kills Mace not because he hates him but because he wants the middle ground, he wants the power to save Padme yet up until that last second (and later, when he confronts Padme) he is still willing to cast Palpatine aside and become the most powerful Jedi ever.



anakin allows his hatred and fear to cloud his judgment in attack of the clones and revenge of the sith. when vader confronts obi-wan on the death star he has learned to control these impulses. I dunno, the Emperor and Vader put a lot of weight into the Sith school of thought that tapping into ones hate makes one more powerful with the Force (though Yoda describes it not more powerful, but as quicker, easier, and more seductive, this is part of what makes the Sith philosophically different from the Jedi I suppose).



Darth Vader, on the other hand, has "matured" over time. Isn't the reason why Vader was such an awesome villian was his cool, calculating presence? Could he have been an angry, raving comic book-type villian? Yes, but then he wouldn't have been "Vader." This movie is touted as the birth of Darth Vader, and once he puts on that outfit at the end, I think the message is that he is now the Darth Vader we know. I don't think the route we took to get Anakin there works for that though, we don't get sound reasons why Anakin becomes Palpatine's apprentice and stays that way, why Palps needs an apprentice, what Anakin gained (beyond empty promises and yellow eyes) by becoming a Sith and staying one, how Vader got that mask (beyond "here ya go" that we're shown of course) or, importantly, how Anakin believes the Jedi to be powerful Force users yet still completely beneath him.



All i have to say is dont read to far into the acting from ep3 and ep4. You have to realize that 4 was filmed first without any notion that there would be prequals. Lucas haddent even felt that angle out yet. It is really a matter of would Lucas change the interaction between obi and vader on the Death Star if the series was filmed ep 1-6 in cronological order. There-in lyes the answer to the question.. and only Lucas knows the answer. I don't agree with you here on 2 levels: first, Lucas has been saying for almost 30 years that there was always this basic backstory in play when he filmed Ep 4; and second, Ep 3 and the prequels should have been made to fit what was already established in the Original Trilogy, so the excuse that Lucas made Ep 4 not knowing how Ep 3 would pan out is backwards since Lucas made Ep 3 after Ep 4 and already KNEW how Ep 4 turned out.


Ultimately, I feel that the conversation after Obi-Wan defeats Anakin is not in the story's best interest, Anakin could have fallen into the lava and survived on his newly-gained unnatural Sith lifesaving powers without Obi-Wan even knowing he was still alive at the time, then we wouldn't know how Anakin turns into the Darth Vader that we see in Ep 4 (which I still say we don't REALLY know from Ep 3, we see it but without any real meaning behind it, it happens without context) and we don't KNOW if Anakin simply chalked up the loss to his failure, or perhaps to Obi-Wan freeing him from the last of his Jedi leanings, or to hatred, or whatever, we wouldn't KNOW and we wouldn't have to know because it would have been "said" in Ep 4 by their reactions to each other rather than by pieces of dialogue which ring a little false in the scheme of things.

stillakid
05-31-2005, 07:39 AM
To his knowledge Vader defeated him. To our knowledge Obi-Wan lived on in "the spirit world" by giving himslef to the force. .
That really wasn't the point. While Vader "won" that battle, he didn't really "defeat" Obi Wan. Obi basically gave up and let Vader take the last shot. That'd be like going hunting for bear and then shooting one while it slept and claiming that you beat it in battle.

Obi did that because he knew that he'd be more of a help to Luke as a blue ghost than a slow old man.

Kidhuman
05-31-2005, 10:48 AM
I agree Stilla, but Darth still thoguht he defeated him by always stating Obi-Wan has taught you well. He didnt even factor Yoda into it, but had thought Obi-Wan trained him before the DS1 battle. At least thats what I get from him talking in past tense.

JimJamBonds
05-31-2005, 11:06 AM
I agree Stilla, but Darth still thoguht he defeated him by always stating Obi-Wan has taught you well. He didnt even factor Yoda into it, but had thought Obi-Wan trained him before the DS1 battle. At least thats what I get from him talking in past tense.

I guess it was a victory in his mind since Obi is gone and can't help Luke. He probably doesn't get the "if you strike me down I'll become more powerfull" bit so I think that is why Vader uses the past tense when speaking of the training. As far as Yoda goes, if the Empire hadn't 'felt' anything with him I'm sure they figured he was long gone.

Jim Jam

Mr. JabbaJohnL
05-31-2005, 11:56 AM
Why did Vader hate Obi-Wan?



He just cut his f***in' legs off! I'd be pretty mad at anyone who did that to me. :p

ronhudy
05-31-2005, 12:27 PM
I don't agree with you here on 2 levels: first, Lucas has been saying for almost 30 years that there was always this basic backstory in play when he filmed Ep 4; and second, Ep 3 and the prequels should have been made to fit what was already established in the Original Trilogy, so the excuse that Lucas made Ep 4 not knowing how Ep 3 would pan out is backwards since Lucas made Ep 3 after Ep 4 and already KNEW how Ep 4 turned out.

Ultimately, I feel that the conversation after Obi-Wan defeats Anakin is not in the story's best interest, Anakin could have fallen into the lava and survived on his newly-gained unnatural Sith lifesaving powers without Obi-Wan even knowing he was still alive at the time, then we wouldn't know how Anakin turns into the Darth Vader that we see in Ep 4 (which I still say we don't REALLY know from Ep 3, we see it but without any real meaning behind it, it happens without context) and we don't KNOW if Anakin simply chalked up the loss to his failure, or perhaps to Obi-Wan freeing him from the last of his Jedi leanings, or to hatred, or whatever, we wouldn't KNOW and we wouldn't have to know because it would have been "said" in Ep 4 by their reactions to each other rather than by pieces of dialogue which ring a little false in the scheme of things.

Even if George Lucas DID have the backstory in his mind (which I believe he did, even though many people dispute it), he didn't have all the character development and dialogue worked out. If he HAD made the films chronologically, I think the prequel films, ESPECIALLY Episode III, would have been a lot different. There's so much dialogue and story context in this film that plays off of much of the original trilogy. There are events which probably wouldn't have appeared in this film, but since we already have 4-6, then 1 and 2, much of the mystery about "who's who" and how the characters end up, has already faded. This film was nothing more than 2-1/2 drawn out hours of ILM showing off their skills to showcase 3 basic events - Paplatine forming the Empire, Anakin turning to Darth, and Padme giving birth - and personally, I don't even think these 3 trilogy centered events were done all that well in this film.

El Chuxter
05-31-2005, 02:15 PM
Vader doesn't hate Obi-Wan. He looks at his Master and knows how wrong he's been. It's self-loathing, and he's being petty when he shouts that. He can't, at this point, admit that the only person he hates is himself.

Vader has no problem killing innocent younglings, which there's no possible way he can justify. But he says to Padme that he hopes Obi-Wan has remained loyal, and then tells Obi-Wan on Mustafar that he doesn't want to fight him.

Combine that with "You should not have come back," and I think we see a man who really doesn't want to kill his Master. He's been hoping for 20 years that he's just hiding somewhere and that they will never meet again.

Devo
05-31-2005, 04:28 PM
Vader doesn't hate Obi-Wan. He looks at his Master and knows how wrong he's been. It's self-loathing, and he's being petty when he shouts that. He can't, at this point, admit that the only person he hates is himself.

Vader has no problem killing innocent younglings, which there's no possible way he can justify. But he says to Padme that he hopes Obi-Wan has remained loyal, and then tells Obi-Wan on Mustafar that he doesn't want to fight him.

Combine that with "You should not have come back," and I think we see a man who really doesn't want to kill his Master. He's been hoping for 20 years that he's just hiding somewhere and that they will never meet again.

In the lines you quote I'd agree with your assessment. But there are other lines you dont mention which I think refute what you're saying.

What about "we meet again at last?" and "this will be a day long remembered, it has seen the end of kenobi...etc". Sounds like someone who wants a confrontation and is glad it for it after the fact.

JediTricks
05-31-2005, 07:39 PM
Even if George Lucas DID have the backstory in his mind (which I believe he did, even though many people dispute it), he didn't have all the character development and dialogue worked out. If he HAD made the films chronologically, I think the prequel films, ESPECIALLY Episode III, would have been a lot different. Well, we certainly wouldn't have had any discussion of Qui-Gon at the end of ROTS since he wasn't in the first few drafts of the TPM script; in fact, we probably wouldn't have had Yoda here either since he too was not a player in Ep 1.

Bacta Beast
06-13-2005, 11:19 PM
That really wasn't the point. While Vader "won" that battle, he didn't really "defeat" Obi Wan. Obi basically gave up and let Vader take the last shot. That'd be like going hunting for bear and then shooting one while it slept and claiming that you beat it in battle.

Obi did that because he knew that he'd be more of a help to Luke as a blue ghost than a slow old man.


Good Lord Stillapoo agreed with me!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :crazed: :crazed: :crazed:

I can't find a "tears of joy smiley"!

stillakid
06-14-2005, 12:59 AM
Good Lord Stillapoo agreed with me!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :crazed: :crazed: :crazed:

I can't find a "tears of joy smiley"!

Just a minor correction. It's just: Lord Stillapoo. You don't need the "good" in there. :D


Hey, I only speak from the point of view of the truth derived from an objective critique of the films. Once in a while others join me, and for that I too can do the happy dance. :crazed:

jjreason
06-14-2005, 01:53 AM
*Smacks forehead* Guys, come on. 3 pages, and not one mention of the fact that Anakin is insecure about the way Padme feels about Obi Wan?

How many times do we get it in ROTS?

P: "Maybe Obi Wan can help?"

A: "We don't need his help."
----------------------------------------------
A: "Obi Wan's been here." (delivered in a suspicious manner).
----------------------------------------------------
A: "You were with him!" (Obi Wan standing at the doorway of Padme's ship)

P: "No."

A: "Liar!!!!!!!!!"
--------------------------------------------------
A: "You turned her against me." and "You won't take her away from me!!!!"


He's so deeply in love (so powerful) that the only thing he's concerned about becomes losing the one he loves (the source of his power). Ring a bell?

EVERYTHING - and we're talking about killing defenceless kids here, folks - that Anakin did in the name of Palpatine and the Sith Order was to save Padme's life. When Padme doesn't want to be with him any more, even though he's done all of these horrible, horrible things to save her.... who does he blame? Obi Wan, for poisoning her against him (even though we all know Obi Wan's done no such thing).

At the delivery of the line, Anakin has nothing left. He's sacrificed and/or lost everything he's ever cared about. He's been maimed, the stumps of his recently amputated legs are beginning to burn, and the woman he loves - carrying his child - is lying in an unconscious heap at the ramp of her starship.... by HIS hand no less.

And just when you thought you couldn't take any more - there's good old Obi Wan, giving him ONE LAST LECTURE. I don't think "I hate you!!!" is a stretch by any means in these circumstances.

Kidhuman
06-14-2005, 08:55 AM
Great point JJ, I totally forgot about Padme and Obi's friendship.

2-1B
06-14-2005, 11:07 AM
Great post, Reason ! :)

stillakid
06-14-2005, 11:16 AM
He's so deeply in love (so powerful) that the only thing he's concerned about becomes losing the one he loves (the source of his power). Ring a bell?

You're referring to the one that he kills, right? :rolleyes:

I see what you're getting at, but the only person that Ani has to justifiably hate at this point is himself. He f'd up and, by the reasoning of other people here, he knows it, which is why he continued with his loyalty oath despite Palps pulling the secret of life out from under him. I do like that perhaps he "hates" Obi because of this one last lecture, but if that was the intent on the part of the author and the actor to convey it, from my perspective, it wasn't executed successfully. The "hate" line appears to refer only to Obi Wan as just another in his unjustified rants that began in AOTC.

And you know, I need to start a different thread about this, but the more I think about it, it wasn't "love" from Anakin...is was pure LUST. Which would better explain his reliance on PASSION which is one of the "sins" toward the darkside.

jjreason
06-14-2005, 12:25 PM
You're referring to the one that he kills, right? :rolleyes:

I see what you're getting at, but the only person that Ani has to justifiably hate at this point is himself. He f'd up and, by the reasoning of other people here, he knows it, which is why he continued with his loyalty oath despite Palps pulling the secret of life out from under him. I do like that perhaps he "hates" Obi because of this one last lecture, but if that was the intent on the part of the author and the actor to convey it, from my perspective, it wasn't executed successfully. The "hate" line appears to refer only to Obi Wan as just another in his unjustified rants that began in AOTC.

And you know, I need to start a different thread about this, but the more I think about it, it wasn't "love" from Anakin...is was pure LUST. Which would better explain his reliance on PASSION which is one of the "sins" toward the darkside.

It's not JUST because of the lecture, Stilla. He hates Obi Wan because he believes Obi Wan has taken away the one thing that caused him to do all of the evil things - rendering them worthless. He doesn't see that he's caused the loss himself, or can't deal with that truth. He feels justified in doing everything he's done because he's done it for Padme. When Padme can't see that, Ani feels that it's Obi Wan who has caused her to turn away from him - not his own "lust for power".

I don't feel that Anakin "lusted" after Padme, either. We're talking about a love that started in childhood after all, well before puberty. To call it an "immature" love, or a "puppy love" would be more accurate due to Anakin's inability to experiment with other girls and stuff (due to his inclusion in the Jedi Order). That first love is a doozy, and in this case it's the perfect fulcrum point for Palpatine to spin Anakin around.

JR

2-1B
06-14-2005, 12:30 PM
Agreed again, Reason. :) "Obi-Wan is trying to turn you against me" and the wonderfully delivered and chilling "YOU TURNED HER AGAINST ME" show just how goofy Anakin has become.

stillakid
06-14-2005, 12:48 PM
It's not JUST because of the lecture, Stilla. He hates Obi Wan because he believes Obi Wan has taken away the one thing that caused him to do all of the evil things - rendering them worthless. He doesn't see that he's caused the loss himself, or can't deal with that truth. He feels justified in doing everything he's done because he's done it for Padme. When Padme can't see that, Ani feels that it's Obi Wan who has caused her to turn away from him - not his own "lust for power".
I see. I'll buy that. :)


I don't feel that Anakin "lusted" after Padme, either. We're talking about a love that started in childhood after all, well before puberty. To call it an "immature" love, or a "puppy love" would be more accurate due to Anakin's inability to experiment with other girls and stuff (due to his inclusion in the Jedi Order). That first love is a doozy, and in this case it's the perfect fulcrum point for Palpatine to spin Anakin around.

JR
I'll disagree there though. It wasn't "puppy love." It was OBSESSION which turned into a rather unhealthy LUST. There was no romantic energy between either of them or experience to justify true love. His LUST is what was driving him to save her...probably because he didn't bother to ever meet any other girls. But for whatever reason, he latched his di** onto this one and decided that she was the end all and be all...and he decided all of this prior to seeing her at the beginning of AOTC. After that, it was all just co**-strutting to get into her pants at the earliest opportunity. He never developed any true love for her...it was all just obsession and irrational unjustifiable passion.

2-1B
06-14-2005, 01:02 PM
After that, it was all just co**-strutting to get into her pants at the earliest opportunity.

Wow, I totally missed the scene where we see Anakin keeping a pet rooster ! :eek: That must have been his second passion, behind podracing. lol

Rocketboy
06-14-2005, 01:22 PM
Wow, I totally missed the scene where we see Anakin keeping a pet rooster ! :eek: That must have been his second passion, behind podracing. lolThat's the EU for ya!

JediTricks
06-14-2005, 06:39 PM
It's not JUST because of the lecture, Stilla. He hates Obi Wan because he believes Obi Wan has taken away the one thing that caused him to do all of the evil things - rendering them worthless. He doesn't see that he's caused the loss himself, or can't deal with that truth. He feels justified in doing everything he's done because he's done it for Padme. When Padme can't see that, Ani feels that it's Obi Wan who has caused her to turn away from him - not his own "lust for power". If only Lucas had given Anakin a piece of dialogue to get us over this instead of leaving it vague since there's nothing afterwards to strongly suggest it (he just burns up, can't show us what he was feeling there), I would be with you here. Instead it's left almost entirely up to us to fill in that blank spot with too few cinematic clues of pieces of dialogue to support it.

stillakid
06-14-2005, 09:56 PM
Wow, I totally missed the scene where we see Anakin keeping a pet rooster ! :eek: That must have been his second passion, behind podracing. lol

Not the cox from his family farm...I meant the cox he keeps nearby for lustful emergencies. :smoker:

jjreason
06-15-2005, 12:03 AM
I'll disagree there though. It wasn't "puppy love." It was OBSESSION which turned into a rather unhealthy LUST. There was no romantic energy between either of them or experience to justify true love. His LUST is what was driving him to save her...probably because he didn't bother to ever meet any other girls. But for whatever reason, he latched his di** onto this one and decided that she was the end all and be all...and he decided all of this prior to seeing her at the beginning of AOTC. After that, it was all just co**-strutting to get into her pants at the earliest opportunity. He never developed any true love for her...it was all just obsession and irrational unjustifiable passion.

Man, we're pretty far apart on this one (shocker ;) ). I don't think that Anakin obsessed over Padme in the lecherous way you're hinting at.

Childhood is the time of our lives when we're allowed to love unconditionally - we start with the love of our family members, who (hopefully) teach us to love as much as we can, without reservation, because they're family, and they love us that way.

As we grow older, and move towards relationships that call for "passionate" love, we start out by loving unconditionally - until love itself rears it's ugly head and breaks our hearts - the girl picks an older guy or what have you, and you're depressed for 2 months. That sort of love.

We learn from these situations. We "grow", or at least become more guarded with our emotions from having experienced real pain as a result of loving someone too much (and who can blame us? That's the only way we've known to love, until now). As we progress through our romantic relationships (some of us with amazing frequency, and equally amazing lack of depth or commitment - you know, that friend we all have that we "live vicariously through" or whatever), we love more carefully so that we can avoid the hurt. We make contingency plans instead of family plans, we border on commitment without making any real sacrifices for the other person until we know they're "the one". Whatever that means.

Anakin is stuck way, way back there. He's stuck way back having loved only his mom before Padme. He meets a beautiful girl who treats him with respect and caring - something he's only ever gotten from his mom, who he loves with all his heart - yet this person is much closer to his own age, and quite pretty. It's apparent to Anakin that she cares for him, but it's easy to see how a young boy could be confused and think that it's specifically him she cares about, when I think that Padme would have cared for any young person she had found in a similar downtrodden predicament.

What happens next? Anakin is removed from his mother, and left with Padme - who helps him come to terms with his loss. You can't tell me that it's hard to see how a boy this young couldn't get mixed up in the emotional turmoil of a time like that and gravitate "lovingly" toward the only person left physically in his life that will provide him with any nurturing?

Anaking transposes his love for his mother onto Padme. Anakin's greatest failure (at least in his own mind) - failing to save his mother - is easily manipulated by Palpatine into becoming his new greatest fear: losing Padme in the same helpless fashion.

Anakin loves Padme in a very similar way to the way he loved his mom. I don't think that many of us living in this day in age love our spouses in that same way, I know I don't. Ani and Padme's relationship was doomed to fail for many reasons, but it's very apparent from very early on in ROTS that Anakin's love for Padme is all-consuming, I'll even go so far as to say unhealthy. He's way too dependent, would do ANYTHING to keep Padme in his life - and he plays right into Palpatine's hands as a result.

2-1B
06-15-2005, 01:08 AM
Oh yeah, it's definitely unhealthy. When I argue that I think he really did love her, that's not to say it wasn't unhealthy, his inability to let go. :(

basschick
06-15-2005, 06:50 AM
i suspect we all know what he was feeling there - LOTS OF PAIN ;)


he just burns up, can't show us what he was feeling there

stillakid
06-15-2005, 07:11 AM
He's way too dependent, would do ANYTHING to keep Padme in his life - and he plays right into Palpatine's hands as a result.

Uh, yeah, that's exactly what Anakin is doing...only that what you're describing isn't true love...it's obsession. A dependence upon another person to bring you happiness isn't love. A desire to have them at any cost isn't love. Passion and passionate love are not the same thing. Believe me, I've felt pretty passionate toward some people and had passion with some. But have only truly loved a couple of them. Thankfully, I never kept up an obsession with any.

Everything you describe about Anakin and his relationships is fairly true, but it is not love.

ronhudy
06-15-2005, 06:42 PM
It's not JUST because of the lecture, Stilla. He hates Obi Wan because he believes Obi Wan has taken away the one thing that caused him to do all of the evil things - rendering them worthless. He doesn't see that he's caused the loss himself, or can't deal with that truth. He feels justified in doing everything he's done because he's done it for Padme. When Padme can't see that, Ani feels that it's Obi Wan who has caused her to turn away from him - not his own "lust for power".


If only Lucas had given Anakin a piece of dialogue to get us over this instead of leaving it vague since there's nothing afterwards to strongly suggest it (he just burns up, can't show us what he was feeling there), I would be with you here. Instead it's left almost entirely up to us to fill in that blank spot with too few cinematic clues of pieces of dialogue to support it.

I agree with your response JediTricks.

After seeing the movie a second time and having discussed it, it's not hard to buy jjreason's explanation. But it shouldn't take an in-depth analysis to come to that conclusion. In a movie such as this, the reaction and understanding of a character's actions and emotions should be immediate, and dialogue and on-screen events should be support that. Why? Think of the target audience - the majority of it is children, who don't think this deep, and fans who already know the outcome of such actions, and want to see an appropriate course of supportive storytelling.

Anakin's change was too immediate for me. I didn't buy the whole struggle, because there were too many moments where Anakin knew completely what he was doing and already knew what actions were right and wrong. There were too many moments of showing love for and faith in Obi-Wan, then 5 minutes later, disdain. It wasn't a struggle between good and evil - it was simple selfishness and immaturity. I can't imagine between Episodes 1 and 2, what kind of pain in the *** he was during his training at the Jedi Temple. Did he learn ANYTHING?! He obivously didn't learn the traits of unselfishness, discipline, or maturity. He was simply powerful because of his conception from the midichlorians. It seems like the council only kept him around because of the skill he possessed, not because of the person he was. Perhaps he thought this as well - maybe it contributed to his mistrust for the council, and was not just the result of Palpatine's manipulation.

Had they left out the lines of "overthrowing the Emperor", "..my new Empire", and "I hate you!" - I might have been O.K. with this scene. But Anakin knew, since Episode 1, the kind of pure, unselfish, and honest person that Padme was and the values she held. He knew she would NEVER have approved of his actions or supported him, whether her death was impending or not. He constantly talked about being loyal to the Republic and the Senate and democracy, but then suddenly he wants to run the whole show how he sees fit?! Anakin had no reason to HATE Obi-Wan - there was no evidence of Obi-Wan having betrayed him and taken Padme away from him. I don't see how he came to that conlcusion at all...he was only concerned for Anakin in the way Anakin was for Padme.

I suppose if the trilogies had been done in chronological order, my overall opinion of how certain events lead to certain results might be different - but Anakin's progression in this movie alone just didn't work for me. I support stillakid's assessment that Anakin obssessed and lusted for things - not loved and appreciated them.

JediTricks
06-15-2005, 08:04 PM
i suspect we all know what he was feeling there - LOTS OF PAIN ;)That is not what I meant and you know it. :p Emotional feelings, not physical feelings.



After seeing the movie a second time and having discussed it, it's not hard to buy jjreason's explanation. But it shouldn't take an in-depth analysis to come to that conclusion. In a movie such as this, the reaction and understanding of a character's actions and emotions should be immediate, and dialogue and on-screen events should be support that. This is one of my greatest contentions about the prequels, that if we have to talk it out to figure something out, if we have to fill in a lot of blanks to get there, the movie's plot isn't doing its job - I find that infinitely frustrating.


Why? Think of the target audience - the majority of it is children, who don't think this deep, and fans who already know the outcome of such actions, and want to see an appropriate course of supportive storytelling. There's another reason which fits kids and adults and every demographic in between, one that is at the core of the original Star Wars, Lucas says it himself on the ANH commentary and I transcribed some of it in my recent thread (http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=28846), in it he says...

The thing about making a movie like this is you have to create a whole world - in this particular case I guess it's a whole universe - but all the customs, all the politics, all the history, all the character motivations, everything has to be created... I was able to use archetypes which helped develop the characters and put them in a context where they could be easily-grasped, because they are traditional characters that are easy to understand, I felt that was important in a movie like this because if you're in a really bizarre, strange environment, if the lead characters have emotions and motivations that are very very familiar to you, then it's very easy for you to grab onto something in the movie and make sense out of it.... when I would get thrown into something like 'Seven Samurai' or 'Yojimbo' or 'Ikiru' or any of the movies, it was like, I had no idea what was going on, but I could follow the human story, but the culture was completely complex and oblique - and I liked that! I liked that feeling of being thrown into an environment, you know, trying to get my bearings, and still be able to tell a story in that environment that made sense, that you weren't so confused that you just couldn't follow it.


Anakin's change was too immediate for me. I didn't buy the whole struggle, because there were too many moments where Anakin knew completely what he was doing and already knew what actions were right and wrong. There were too many moments of showing love for and faith in Obi-Wan, then 5 minutes later, disdain. It wasn't a struggle between good and evil - it was simple selfishness and immaturity. I can't imagine between Episodes 1 and 2, what kind of pain in the *** he was during his training at the Jedi Temple. Did he learn ANYTHING?! He obivously didn't learn the traits of unselfishness, discipline, or maturity. You have a great post there Ron. I would agree with all of this part except I'd add that this behavior, minus the feeling of "love", also plagued the character in Ep 2 and it bothered me there as well. (Come to think of it, I have been feeling that Eps 2 and 3 are very similar to me, this is a significant part of why I suppose).

2-1B
06-16-2005, 12:14 AM
ronhudy I do not agree with your assessment of jjreason's post and I am completely baffled as to how you can describe that as an "in-depth analysis" since everything jjreason said was based entirely on a few lines of dialogue in the movie.

JediTricks
06-17-2005, 02:49 AM
I am completely baffled as to how you can describe that as an "in-depth analysis" since everything jjreason said was based entirely on a few lines of dialogue in the movie.The key to that is "based", by that even you are not saying it's in there but that jjreason had to do some analysis, put A and B together and extrapolate some meanings in C and D to get the answer.

Darth Spectre
06-17-2005, 11:39 AM
Anakin seems to focus all his frustrations and disappointments, and throws them at Obi-Wan's doorstep. Obi-Wan did everything he really could for Anakin, but Anakin is too selfish to see it and/or appreciate it. He suspects Obi-Wan & Padme are closer than they should be, so that adds to the tension. But I think ultimately, Anakin says he hates him because Obi-Wan is essentially always right (including the high ground warning that Anakin ignored) and Obi-Wan is what a Jedi should be, should want to be. And for all his power, Anakin is nothing like that.

2-1B
06-18-2005, 12:29 AM
The key to that is "based", by that even you are not saying it's in there but that jjreason had to do some analysis, put A and B together and extrapolate some meanings in C and D to get the answer.

In that case, I should retract the word "based" (sorry, reading it again I shouldn't have said that :) ) and I will replace it with "everything JJReason said was a literally retelling of a few lines of dialogue."

Here's what I mean (I'm talking about the post of Reason that was quoted by ronhudy):


He hates Obi Wan because he believes Obi Wan has taken away the one thing that caused him to do all of the evil things - rendering them worthless.

Anakin: Obi-Wan is trying to turn you against me.
Anakin: You turned her against me !


He doesn't see that he's caused the loss himself, or can't deal with that truth.

Anakin: Because of Obi-Wan . . .
Padme: Because of what you've done !


He feels justified in doing everything he's done because he's done it for Padme.

Anakin: And I'm doing it for you.


When Padme can't see that, Ani feels that it's Obi Wan who has caused her to turn away from him

Repeating from above --

Anakin: Obi-Wan is trying to turn you against me.
Anakin: You turned her against me !


- not his own "lust for power".

Exact quote from Obi-Wan. :)

So, literally everything Reason said is centered on specific dialogue from the film (and I agree completely with Reason's post, that's why I'm advocating for it as if it were my own ;) ).

I don't see any extrapolation in that, none at all.

JON9000
06-18-2005, 10:54 AM
Man, we're pretty far apart on this one (shocker ;) ). I don't think that Anakin obsessed over Padme in the lecherous way you're hinting at. .... Palpatine's hands as a result.

:beard: to that whole post!

jjreason
06-18-2005, 12:19 PM
:beard: to that whole post!

Thanks, I was pretty proud of it myself. :) If I ever tire of my current line of work, I'll go into couples counselling.

They don't call me "The Love Doctor" for nothin'........ :rolleyes: :D

JediTricks
06-21-2005, 12:40 AM
If you have to do that much addition and inferrence, I stand by what I said: "jjreason had to do some analysis, put A and B together and extrapolate some meanings in C and D to get the answer." You yourself are saying "this has to mean that" on each one, and 2 of your repsonses put the weight on 1 statement.

2-1B
06-21-2005, 02:34 AM
Well JT . . . isn't that the point ? :confused: To listen to the characters and then know what they are thinking and why they think that way ? :confused:

And honestly, I am baffled that you describe that as being "that much addition and inferrence" because to me it's pretty straight forward and to the point. It really hurts me to read that from you because it's making me question the validity of so many of your other points regarding the dialogue you have been quoting because I really don't know where you're coming from and how you're getting there. :(

jjreason
06-21-2005, 02:42 AM
It boils down to the age old debate (okay, well 6 years old anyhow) - do you WANT to like the prequels, or not? Those of us who's impressions of the movies are generally good are willing to suspend disbelief. Those who's impressions are bad aren't willing.

No sense in getting hurt feelings, Caesar, JT has simply made up his mind that he doesn't like the prequels. For that reason, he's not willing to stretch or read between the lines at all. And JT, I don't mean to criticize, either. I understand your point - you're frustrated at having to analyze so much when it could be so much more concisely laid out there for us on the screen. Either way guys, you're not going to see it the same way. Bygones, as they say (Jesus, I can't believe I'm preaching to you two!!!!!). :)

2-1B
06-21-2005, 02:59 AM
My feelings aren't hurt. lol It's just that I always enjoy reading JT's opinions (even though when it comes to SW they are often the opposite of my own :D ). What "hurt" me about it was that I literally can't understand where it was coming from because to me it was pretty basic, the stuff I quoted.
JJReason, the stuff that I was quoting, well, when I was talking about it I was NOT stretching or reading between the lines. It bothered me that Reason's post was so succint and to the point, yet it's being passed off as containing too much analysis. :confused: (no offense Reason, that's not to say you aren't a good analyst in other ways lol )

Or are we talking about different posts here ? :confused:

All I was talking about was what RonHudy quoted from Reason and then JT himself commented on. So maybe JT is talking about other posts whereas I am talking about specific points of dialogue and if that's the case, then we're talking about 2 different things. :crazed: But I think we're on the same page. :confused:

jjreason
06-21-2005, 03:19 AM
My feelings aren't hurt. lol It's just that I always enjoy reading JT's opinions (even though when it comes to SW they are often the opposite of my own :D ). What "hurt" me about it was that I literally can't understand where it was coming from because to me it was pretty basic, the stuff I quoted.
JJReason, the stuff that I was quoting, well, when I was talking about it I was NOT stretching or reading between the lines. It bothered me that Reason's post was so succint and to the point, yet it's being passed off as containing too much analysis. :confused: (no offense Reason, that's not to say you aren't a good analyst in other ways lol )

Or are we talking about different posts here ? :confused:

All I was talking about was what RonHudy quoted from Reason and then JT himself commented on. So maybe JT is talking about other posts whereas I am talking about specific points of dialogue and if that's the case, then we're talking about 2 different things. :crazed: But I think we're on the same page. :confused:

Okay, that's good :). I think we're certainly on the same page - and I think that JT is talking about what you think he's talking about. I saw your quotes, and to me (same as you) they get us to a certain understanding about the relationships between the characters. Other people don't get it the same way..... and I don't think that's as wrong, per se, as it is frustrating.

It's hard to explain, but I really believe that different people (maybe it's different types of people, people with different prevailing attitudes, who knows......) simply take things differently than others. It's the whole "3 meanings" argument from psych class all over again. Things that we say or hear have 3 meanings: face value, implied meaning (sender's understanding), and perceived meaning (recipients understanding). We can only control the face value of the things we say, even though the sarcastic ones among us like to load up their (our ;) ) comments with innuendo and "deeper" meanings.

I think it's a matter of the prevailing attitude about the movie itself affecting certain folks ability (or maybe it's desire) to take things in the way they were intended. You and me, we're willing to listen to what Obi and Ani are saying to each other becase we love them, warts and all. JT's still on about how Obi and Ani AREN'T Ben and Darth. Silly JT. :D

2-1B
06-21-2005, 03:29 AM
Leave it to a Canadian to always put things in perspective. :crazed:

That's true, I DO love Obi and Ani. That's why the prequels worked for me on the whole, because I cared about the characters (these two, especially) and even though I knew the story was leading to Vader I didn't want it to. :(

By the way Reason, Hayders himself is a Canadian - I hope you folks are proud of him up there ! lol

Jayspawn
06-21-2005, 10:02 AM
I think jjreason is right -a lot of people just dont want to like the prequels.

Some people are purists and admit it. Others are and dont.

Anyway, I love the line. Hayden was really into character when he said it -you could tell how pi**ed off Anakin was. And how he was!

Elliejabbapop
06-21-2005, 12:33 PM
I think jjreason is right -a lot of people just dont want to like the prequels.

Some people are purists and admit it. Others are and dont.

Anyway, I love the line. Hayden was really into character when he said it -you could tell how pi**ed off Anakin was. And how he was!

Amen to that :)

JediTricks
06-22-2005, 12:17 AM
Well JT . . . isn't that the point ? :confused: To listen to the characters and then know what they are thinking and why they think that way ? :confused:When there is more inferrence on the part of the audience than implication on the part of the filmmaker or actor, that's where the issue lies. You guys seem to be extrapolating reasonings, it requires that you sit down later and have to think it through and explore how you feel it was before you can come to the conclusion of what it all meant.


And honestly, I am baffled that you describe that as being "that much addition and inferrence" because to me it's pretty straight forward and to the point. It really hurts me to read that from you because it's making me question the validity of so many of your other points regarding the dialogue you have been quoting because I really don't know where you're coming from and how you're getting there. Feel free to call me on any you come up with in their appropriate locations. I don't think I'm alone in this thread about this though, you guys sometimes act like you have a secret decoder ring which tells you to interpret the dialogue a certain way that the rest of us just don't get, sometimes it fits and sometimes it doesn't, but it often feels like you guys are just filling in the blank spots with your own stuff.


It boils down to the age old debate (okay, well 6 years old anyhow) - do you WANT to like the prequels, or not? Those of us who's impressions of the movies are generally good are willing to suspend disbelief. Those who's impressions are bad aren't willing. Bullspit, I couldn't agree less, we are talking about tangible cinematic elements, not debating the possibility of the Force, Lucas doesn't just write absolute nonsense and demand that you either get it or get lost, he writes stories that are intended to quickly resonate with a widespread audience to get on with the tale - sometimes he succeeds while others he does not, both in the OT and the prequels, and he's far from the only writer to do this. Some storytellers intentionally let the audience fill in the blanks as part of the cinematic experience, the minimalistic narrative - especially the ending - in Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey is one such style of movie, but this is not the type of storytelling that Lucas does with Star Wars.


For that reason, he's not willing to stretch or read between the lines at all. I may not agree with everything you said, but I believe this is true, I am not willing to do so. Why? Because that's not what Star Wars has been for the past 5 movies and nothing here has told me it's supposed to be that now, I've never felt that the stories asked me to fill in any blanks. I commend you for at least recognizing that you ARE stretching and reading between the lines, but I don't understand why some folks here are so adamant that others like myself must see and agree with their personal inferences to get the story told.


Okay, that's good :). I think we're certainly on the same page - and I think that JT is talking about what you think he's talking about. I saw your quotes, and to me (same as you) they get us to a certain understanding about the relationships between the characters. Other people don't get it the same way..... and I don't think that's as wrong, per se, as it is frustrating. Yeah, that's pretty much it.


It's hard to explain, but I really believe that different people (maybe it's different types of people, people with different prevailing attitudes, who knows......) simply take things differently than others. It's the whole "3 meanings" argument from psych class all over again. Things that we say or hear have 3 meanings: face value, implied meaning (sender's understanding), and perceived meaning (recipients understanding). We can only control the face value of the things we say, even though the sarcastic ones among us like to load up their (our ;) ) comments with innuendo and "deeper" meanings. You almost lost me there, but I think the second part shored up the rocky first sentence. ;) My frustration is that "face value" meaning is spartan or less in this specific situation, and it feels to me like Lucas didn't do the job he meant to with his "implied meaning" because myself and others as well seem to find this area lacking on this one, while the "perceived meaning" from some folks such as yourself fill in those blanks for you but seems to require a little extra "perception" in the "perceived meaning" (or as I've been calling it in this thread so far, "inference") to get you beyond that point and then argue from the foundation that their "perceived meaning" must be the "face value" meaning.


I think it's a matter of the prevailing attitude about the movie itself affecting certain folks ability (or maybe it's desire) to take things in the way they were intended. You and me, we're willing to listen to what Obi and Ani are saying to each other becase we love them, warts and all. JT's still on about how Obi and Ani AREN'T Ben and Darth. Silly JT. :D I am not about how Obi-Wan isn't Ben, I even said he's barely Ben to me in the OT, so get your cross-thread insults straight. :p However, the real important part here is that you claim above that you are coming from the "perceived meaning" realm and assuming that the actual or "face value" realm must have been the intended or "implied meaning" realm, and my argument is that I don't think it is in the "face value" realm and that you and Caesar haven't provided enough evidence to support your claim that it is.



I think jjreason is right -a lot of people just dont want to like the prequels. This is a really silly claim in my eyes, we wouldn't be here talking about these prequels if there wasn't some expectation of quality. Each film, I *wanted* to like them a lot, they just weren't something I liked by the end.

Jayspawn
06-22-2005, 12:29 AM
Like I said, some people just dont want to like the prequels.

2-1B
06-22-2005, 12:30 AM
Not that you'll believe me, but . . . ;)


You guys seem to be extrapolating reasonings, it requires that you sit down later and have to think it through and explore how you feel it was before you can come to the conclusion of what it all meant.

I swear to you that did not happen. Everything I quoted from the film in regard to Reason's ideas hit me immediately when I saw the movie and took the emotional journey with my two favorite characters in the Saga, Obi-Wan and Anakin.

I assure you that I did not have to sit down later to figure out what they were saying and what it meant. :)

Jayspawn
06-22-2005, 12:34 AM
Amen to that Caesar! I didnt have to think about it afterwards either (but it is fun to do). I understood everything right away.

stillakid
06-22-2005, 01:11 AM
Like I said, some people just dont want to like the prequels.

You can repeat that another million times and it still will never be true. Not only is it categorically wrong, but it is insulting. It implies that some of us actually take time out of our other hobbies to find...no, create problems to complain about. Not only is that utterly ridiculous, it specifically is meant as a backhanded way to demean not only the solid arguments made concerning said problems, but those making the comments as well.

Believe me, if I didn't "want" to like something, I wouldn't dare waste more than a nanosecond considering it as its presence blew through my awareness. So on the contrary, I think I can safely speak for every one of "us" out there by saying that we really WANT to like the Prequels, however the inherent nature of them makes it impossible as we are not willing nor necessarily able to make constant excuses and rationalizations to make up for sloppy writing and poor filmic execution.

I can only speculate that the thought you express above is meant to make yourselves feel better about your own choices to enjoy the Prequels no matter what. We're all just individuals, so I can only guess as to why others make the choices they do. However, as stated, your assertion above is absolutely wrong in conception.

Jayspawn
06-22-2005, 10:45 AM
So if thats NOT true stillakid, what did YOU like about the prequels?

Of course if you are unable to cite anything, well..you know.... :D

JediTricks
06-22-2005, 06:58 PM
Not liking the prequels and not WANTING to like the prequels are 2 totally different things. Ask Caesar, he and I got caught up in confusion over that issue a few months ago.

stillakid
06-22-2005, 10:47 PM
So if thats NOT true stillakid, what did YOU like about the prequels?
I liked Grievous in particular and the silliness of the battle droids in the beginning. There's even an entire thread about it that you can peruse. :D


Of course if you are unable to cite anything, well..you know.... :D
Of course your quaint attempt to catch me in a lie was ill conceived, so, well...you know. :D

2-1B
06-23-2005, 12:40 AM
Not liking the prequels and not WANTING to like the prequels are 2 totally different things. Ask Caesar, he and I got caught up in confusion over that issue a few months ago.

Ahhhh, no, not at all. I never accused you of "Not Wanting" to like the prequels, I just predicted that you would not like ROTS.

I have never accused people of not liking the prequels because they didn't want to, just as I would not want to be accused of enjoying the prequels out of some sort of weird loyalty or devotion to GWL.

Jayspawn
06-23-2005, 08:42 AM
Well thats good stillakid....

Much anger I sense in you, but the Emperor has not driven it from you fully.

JediTricks
06-23-2005, 09:46 PM
Ahhhh, no, not at all. I never accused you of "Not Wanting" to like the prequels, I just predicted that you would not like ROTS.

I have never accused people of not liking the prequels because they didn't want toI wasn't saying you did, what I said was "he and I got caught up in confusion over that issue", which you and I absolutely did - I intentionally assigned no blame on your part when I made the above comment - because we were briefly caught up in the confusion over the way you presented your prediction and eventually worked that out.

2-1B
06-23-2005, 11:43 PM
Oh, since you put it that way, yes, that's correct. My bad. :)