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View Full Version : "saving others" and "cheating death" are two different things.



2-1B
05-30-2005, 02:55 AM
Some people who are salty about the way ROTS turned out have been using the false argument that Anakin's allegiance to Palpatine doesn't make sense because as soon as Ani pledges himself to Palpacrust's teachings, Palps takes the offer off the table by saying that they have to work together to figure things out. This is not true.

During the Opera scene Palpatine talks about Darth Pestilence/ Plagueis / Whomever lol and dangles a big orange carrot in front of Anakin by saying that the old Darth was so powerful that he could even save the ones he loved from dying. Palps goes on to tell more of the story, how the Darth died, later pointing out the irony that he could save others but he couldn't save himself.

So later in the film, Anakin pledges himself to Sidious' teachings in the interest of saving Padme's life . . . Palpatine rambles on about how only one has been able to cheat death but if they work together they might discover the secrets . . . and after being renamed Darth Vader, Sidious gives Vader instructions to ambush the Jedi and catch them off guard. He then tells Anakin that "only then will you be strong enough with the Dark Side to save Padme."

Two different things there. :)

Sith Lord 0498
05-30-2005, 09:03 AM
If they truly are intended to be two separate concepts, I don't believe Lucas made enough of a distinction between the two concepts to get that point across to the audience. If that one line is the only time Sidious mentions "cheating death" and all the other lines are about "saving Padme", then why include that at all. Remove that line, and the scene works even better because that confusion has been removed.

Besides, Palpatine's comment that "To cheat death is an ability only one has achieved" is a direct response to Anakin begging "Just help me save Padme's life! I can't live without her!" I really don't believe they were meant to be separate entities. I believe it's another writing flub.

JimJamBonds
05-30-2005, 01:06 PM
Although Caesar, Palps says "he taught his apprentice everything he knew." Acutally I agree with you I'm just busting your chops.

Jim Jam

2-1B
05-30-2005, 01:29 PM
Yeah, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, but he didn't know enough how to save himself from that very apprentice. Now Sidious is taking on a new apprentice and while Sids couldn't give two squirts of Gungan urine about saving Padme, he has to lay that out as bait for Vader and at the same time it sets a long term of goal of them "working together" to find the secrets of immortality since Sids wants it and considering he killed his master, he sure as heck should know that Vader might come for him someday, too.

What's that ? Vader was already gunning for the Big Cheese by telling Padme that he can overthrow him ? Oh alright then, that explains why Palps was thinking long term, he had to try something to keep Vader lusting for Padme. Thank the maker that Vader f'd it up himself by "killing" Padme because it sure kept him in check for the next few decades, that is until Padme Part 2 (Luke) came along and reignited that passion for familial rule of the galaxy. lol

I gotta stop rationalizing, guys . . . all this citing of onscreen evidence really makes me look like some idiot, doesn't it ? lol lol lol

shammykenobi
05-30-2005, 05:52 PM
OK. so paplpatine said that "only one has learned immortality" or something like that right?? and he told anakin "if we work together we can figure it out" So my question is who is the one that has learned immortality??? who was he referring to??? Qui-gon maybe?? and if he was referring to him, how did he know that he was 'back' and communicating with yoda??

TheDarthVader
05-30-2005, 11:45 PM
Caesar is right! Anyone with a brain can understand and figure this out. The opera scene is the key... Funny. He could save others, but he could not save himself. The only thing Anakin cares about it Padme. He is not interested in cheating death. Palpatine brings it up later. Why? I do not know. Maybe he is giving Anakin more bait.

Yes, I think Palpatine was referring to Qui Gon. How did he know? Perhaps he sensed a one-of-a-kind surge in the force and guessed that Qui Gon had come back. Who knows...it is not on screen. We could think of maybes all day long. It doesn't really matter who he was referring to with that comment.

B.
TDV

stillakid
05-31-2005, 12:52 AM
What's this discussion all about? :confused: Are you really questioning who Palps was referring to? He was referencing Darth Plageous (sp?) obviously. The whole story was about how Palp's master, Plag, learned how to keep people from dying. Plag apparently taught Palps everything he knew. Then Palps killed Plag while the old guy was sleeping.

Fast forward to Anakin's time and Palps offers Anakin this knowledge in exchange for his loyalty. The problem of course is that the moment Anakin does cave in, Palps retracts his claim and says that only one has made it work...that one being his former master, Plag.

Was this not terribly obvious? :confused: Do you guys need this stuff rammed down your throats or something?

2-1B
05-31-2005, 02:40 AM
No but I can see that you do since you missed the whole point. :p

Okay so you're saying that Palps makes that claim, then retracts it immediately after having Anakin's allegiance, and then RESTATES that claim a few minutes later ? 'Cause that's what he does when he says only then will you be strong enough with the Dark Side to save Padme. :stupid:

2 separate things.

And no, Plagueis obviously could not cheat death for himself, if he did then HOW the **** was he able to be killed ? :confused: And why would Palpatine point out the irony that he could "save others but not himself" ? :confused:

JediTricks
05-31-2005, 05:40 AM
Palpatine never said that these powers could stop one from being KILLED, only from stopping death. Anakin and Palpatine see Padme DYING in childbirth, not being MURDERED, Darth Plagueis could LIVE forever but could not stop the one he trusted most from KILLING him. This idea that a Sith can save others from natural death but not himself seems really too wild a pitch, especially when we watch Anakin get so severely burned that he cannot survive afterwards without mechanical aid and Palpatine survive being fried by his OWN lightning.

And this idea that Palpatine knew of Qui-Gon being a Force Spirit as "the only one who cheated death" seems like an unbelievable stretch to me, there is absolutely nothing on-screen which connects these 2, especially since Qui-Gon is NOT ALIVE, he is one with the Force and has found a way to communicate.

stillakid
05-31-2005, 08:45 AM
No but I can see that you do since you missed the whole point. :p

Okay so you're saying that Palps makes that claim, then retracts it immediately after having Anakin's allegiance, and then RESTATES that claim a few minutes later ? 'Cause that's what he does when he says only then will you be strong enough with the Dark Side to save Padme. :stupid:

2 separate things.

And no, Plagueis obviously could not cheat death for himself, if he did then HOW the **** was he able to be killed ? :confused: And why would Palpatine point out the irony that he could "save others but not himself" ? :confused:
Uh, yeah, what JT said. The point was that this "dark power" could stop people from dying. It didn't state that someone was now immortal or a kind of Superman who could stop people from killing him. According to the story, Plag learned how to save those around him from dying...who? we don't know...what they were dying from? we don't know....but that's where the irony comes in that Palps points out...that he could save all these other people, but not himself.

So anyway, Palps tells us and Ani that Plag taught his apprentice all that he knows (taught Palps) and that his apprentice (Palps) killed him (Plag) in his sleep (irony). So we assume that Palps knows how to "cheat death." And so does Anakin (assume that) because that's the carrot Palps uses to lure Ani into his nefarious side. So once Ani bites and says, "Okay, I'll stop Mace from killing you as long as you give me the secret power to save Padme," it was assumed that Palps would give Anakin the secret power to save Padme. But then INSTANTLY, Palps retracts and says that he doesn't really know, but the two of them will figure it out together.

The Overlord Returns
05-31-2005, 10:11 AM
Look in the end the entire thing was about manipulation. Papls tells Ani the story, which may or may not be true, in order to get him thinking about this miracle cure for Padme. Then, when he's turned, the system of control kicks in, and Palps suddenly says they will have to find out together, but he's sure they will.

I took the scene to be Palpsd amusing way of unburdening his sith past to someone as well. The intonation is indeed that he was Plageous(sp?)' apprentice. He learned to save others from dying and then slaughtered the old man in his bed. That was all very cut and dry. When he says that only one has learned to cheat death, Palps is talking about himself.

2-1B
05-31-2005, 01:43 PM
stillakid and JT, you guys keep saying that Palpatine pulled back his offer . . . but nobody has addressed the fact I pointed out about Palpatine saying "only then will you be strong enough with the Dark Side to save Padme."

Why do you keep stopping at the point where Palps "pulls back his offer" ? :confused:

I know it's convenient in tearing down the film but it's not very honest if you don't consider what else he said. :)

JediTricks
05-31-2005, 08:57 PM
"You will kill the bank guard and only then will you have the money to save Padme" isn't a line which tells Anakin and the audience how that money will be used to save her. Just because Anakin has the power doesn't mean he has the ability or the required knowledge. You have a battery and a PDA, but without knowing how to get the battery into the machine or how to work the machine, the battery is not useful as it's only 1 part of the equation. There is a telephone line running through your house, does that automatically mean you can make calls? No, you still need a telephone and you need to know how to use the telephone.

TheDarthVader
05-31-2005, 11:25 PM
Maybe Palpatine knows how to save others, but he is hesitant to inform Anakin because of fear that history will repeat itself. Palpatine might be fearful that Anakin will kill him once he learns of the secrets. Besides, Palpatine seems to understand that informing Anakin/Vader of Padme's death will fuel his hatred/anger (why? he smiles after he gives Vader the news that "you killed her in your anger."), thus Vader becomes even more powerful with the dark side of the force. Why? Because Vader's hate and anger grows. How? Vader hates himself and is angry with himself. So perhaps Palpatine is indeed really old and has cheated death. But what does Anakin know of Palpatine? Palpatine is mysterious. Up until EP3 Anakin does not even know that Palpatine is the Sith Lord. How old is Palpatine? No one knows. Where did Palpatine come from? No one knows. My visual dictionary states that his records of ancestry on Naboo have vanished. So maybe it is not so much of a retraction as it is HIDING the secrets from Anakin in fear. Palpatine plans on dangaling that carrot in front of him forever until he dies/is slain then Palpatine can find a new apprentice who is stronger and younger. Maybe Luke? This is how I see it. I am not really interested in other's opinions. They just want to look at ideas in Star Wars from ONE perspective. I have considered their perspectives, and their ideas do not make as much sense to me. Believe what you want.

B.
TDV

stillakid
06-01-2005, 01:14 AM
stillakid and JT, you guys keep saying that Palpatine pulled back his offer . . . but nobody has addressed the fact I pointed out about Palpatine saying "only then will you be strong enough with the Dark Side to save Padme."

Why do you keep stopping at the point where Palps "pulls back his offer" ? :confused:

I know it's convenient in tearing down the film but it's not very honest if you don't consider what else he said. :)


128 INT. CORUSCANT-CHANCELLOR’S OFFICE-EARLY EVENING

...


ANAKIN
I will do whatever you ask.

PALPATINE
Good.

ANAKIN
Just help me save Padme's life. I can't live without her. I won't let her die. I want the power to stop death.

PALPATINE
To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.


Does that sound like a guy who earlier, said these lines?:


__________________________
PALPATINE: (continuing) Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis "the wise"?

ANAKIN: No.

PALPATINE: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life ... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.

ANAKIN: He could actually save people from death?

PALPATINE: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

ANAKIN: What happened to him?

PALPATINE: He became so powerful . . . the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. (smiles) Plagueis never saw it coming. It's ironic he could save others from death, but not himself.

ANAKIN: Is it possible to learn this power?

PALPATINE: Not from a Jedi.
_____________________


PALPATINE: Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi. Learn to know the dark side of the Force, Anakin, and you will be able to save your wife from certain death.

PALPATINE: You have great wisdom, Anakin. Know the power of the dark side. The power to save Padme

2-1B
06-01-2005, 02:49 AM
Right JT, but the point is that he tells Anakin he WILL have the power to save her. Not how. I don't argue with you on that. He doesn't tell her how to save her, just that he will be strong enough.

What I'm arguing about is that he says if we work together we can figure out how to cheat death but he also adds afterward that he will be strong enough to save Padme if he does whatever.

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, I don't see how you can say that he retracts his offer when he restates that "same" offer a few minutes later. That's why I believe these are two different things.

Stillakid, you ask if that sounds like the same guy who said X earlier and ONCE AGAIN you are leaving out the part AFTER the "cheating death" thing where he says what I just told JT:

"Go kill the Jedi and you will be strong enough with the Dark Side to save Padme." That came AFTER the "let's work together to cheat death" thing.

:)

2-1B
06-01-2005, 03:05 AM
Okay, let's go with the idea that Plaguies could cheat death but that doesn't mean he can't be killed. Maybe you guys are right about that. :)

But if that's the case, and if indeed Plaguies did teach Sidious "Everything he knew" then why did Palps say that only one has been able to cheat death ?

That should make 2 of them, Plag and Sid. :)

JimJamBonds
06-01-2005, 11:52 AM
Okay, let's go with the idea that Plaguies could cheat death but that doesn't mean he can't be killed. Maybe you guys are right about that. :)

But if that's the case, and if indeed Plaguies did teach Sidious "Everything he knew" then why did Palps say that only one has been able to cheat death ?

That should make 2 of them, Plag and Sid. :)


Right JT, but the point is that he tells Anakin he WILL have the power to save her. Not how. I don't argue with you on that. He doesn't tell her how to save her, just that he will be strong enough.

Just an idea here.... maybe Palps knows how to but isn't strong enough to do so? Anakin on the other hand doesn't know but will be strong enough after taking care of Sids light work?

Jim Jam

TheDarthVader
06-01-2005, 01:08 PM
No. The fact is Palpatine is deceitful. PALPATINE IS A LIAR!

I will bring peace and justice to the galaxy. LIAR! (Alderran is blown up, jedi are killed).

The jedi want to take over the senate for themselves. LIAR!

Help me Anakin. See? He is trying to kill me (for no good reason). LIAR!

So who knows for sure the extent of Palpatine's knowledge? No one. I say he is lying and does not want anyone else to know of this SECRET power. Remember the GREED of the sith. :)

B.
TDV

2-1B
06-01-2005, 01:51 PM
That's my opinion as of right now. :)
Lying ***** ! lol lol lol

stillakid
06-01-2005, 07:44 PM
Stillakid, you ask if that sounds like the same guy who said X earlier and ONCE AGAIN you are leaving out the part AFTER the "cheating death" thing where he says what I just told JT:

"Go kill the Jedi and you will be strong enough with the Dark Side to save Padme." That came AFTER the "let's work together to cheat death" thing.

:)
I see what you're trying to get at, but that is entirely different from what Palps actually says here:


PALPATINE
To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.

It's the very last phrase of that which says SPECIFICALLY that Palps doesn't know how to do it. He says that the two of them working together will DISCOVER the secret. I don't know how you define "discover," but in my version of reality it means that there is something that a person doesn't yet know and needs to find it. Palps telling Folded-Like-A-Little-Girl-akin to go kill things so that he'll become stronger with the Darkside makes sense, sort of. One would expect that to become stronger with the Darkside that you'd have to do a bunch of mean and nasty things...I guess. I'm still trying to reconcile that idea with the concept of the neutral Midichlorians...but I digress.

Point being, Palps telling Loon-akin to go out and kill something isn't the same thing as telling him how to save Padme. While it might indeed be a part of the equation, it doesn't negate what he said moments before about "discovering" the secret. And therefore, since Palps admits that he doesn't know, he lied to Not-Paying-Attention-akin about being able to help save Padme's life...particularly since we know that Padme is 9 months into the pregnancy and this foreseen death is imminent. PMS-akin at this point should be getting ready to lop Palps's head off for retracting his original claim of KNOWING how to cheat death, but instead he falls to his knees like he just came off a three week bender. :dead:

2-1B
06-02-2005, 02:43 AM
but that is entirely different from what Palps actually says here

Exactly, and that's why I said they are different ! :crazed:

stillakid, what do you think about the One vs. Two cheating death thing ?

Unless Palps was lying, there were 2 who knew how to cheat death, not one. :)

JediTricks
06-02-2005, 03:35 AM
Plagueis = dead

Palpatine = not dead

only 1 has cheated death, by nature or by being killed.


BTW, not that anybody has to put a lot of credence into this next part, but when I was taught science, the teacher often said "we" were going to discover something amazing, even though he already knew it.

2-1B
06-02-2005, 03:42 AM
So is this some sort of paradox or sumthin' JT ? :confused:

Plagueis knew how to cheat death so he taught it to Sidious who then killed Plagueis thus rendering Plagueis' knowledge of how to cheat death null and void since Sidious ended up killing him anyway and now at this point only one has cheated death, that being Sidious until 25 years later when Vader chux him down a shaft and thus leaving us with the scenario in which NOBODY has cheated death and in a way proving Yoda's assertion that Death is a natural part of life.

:crazed: :crazed: :crazed: :crazed: :crazed:

I need to talk to Doc Brown about all this. :bored:

JediTricks
06-02-2005, 04:17 AM
He cheated death right up until someone took away his life, Palpatine at this point hasn't had that happen. "Cheat death" is not a literal statement, we never get the classic robed skeleton holding the scythe taking people to the afterlife here only to have him play a game with someone for their life and miss a occurance where that person cheats the game. If Palpatine has lived for a thousand years, I'd say he's proverbially cheated death already, he's used more than his fair share of living, and in the end it isn't nature which takes his life but Anakin Skywalker.

2-1B
06-02-2005, 04:46 AM
Right, if Palps is indeed that old then he HAS cheated death so far, period. That would make two of them then, right ? :crazed: Of course, the movie doesn't say he's that old so it's speculative, right ? :)

But there is still this problem:

If Palpatine has already cheated death himself, then he is lying to Anakin about discovering the secrets. That's possible, he is a liar afterall. lol

If Palpatine has NOT actually learned the secret of cheating death, then he lied about Plagueis teaching him everything he knew.

So which is it ? And if Palpatine doesn't actually know how to cheat death, why does he tell Anakin that he will be strong enough to do so, even though Palps can't tell him HOW to do it ? To say he will be strong enough suggests that he will be able to . . .

In the end of course I think it's all manipulation as someone said earlier. I can't take all of Palps' comments as truth just as they all aren't lies either. :bored:

sith_killer_99
06-02-2005, 12:37 PM
There is also another point to be made here.

Power!

Remember, the arguement that Palpatine was initially making was that..."All who gain power are afraid to lose it."

He said that Darth Plagueis, had achieved the power to create life. The only thing he feared was losing it, which, of course, eventually he did. But he taught the secret to his apprentice, who later killer Darth Plagueis. Then he turns around and tells Anakin that he must become powerful with the Darkside to achieve the power to do what he wants...save Padme'.

So is simply knowing the secret enough, or does it also require power fueled by the darkside. Think about this, Palpatine has the secret, Anakin gains the power and "together" they can achieve yada yada yada.

Again Palpatine makes refrence to Anakin's power to Yoda "He will become more powerful than either of us."

Thoughts?

stillakid
06-02-2005, 11:40 PM
stillakid, what do you think about the One vs. Two cheating death thing ?

Unless Palps was lying, there were 2 who knew how to cheat death, not one. :)

Well, the jury will have to remain out on that because we have no idea how old Palpatine really is. The INSIDER article indicates only that Palpatine is very very old, which seems to imply that he's lived beyond a normal human lifespan. But since that is not onscreen, we have to look at only what is there which is that Palpatine basically says that his master learned to cheat death (for himself and for others) until Palps killed the ol' coot in his sleep. So based purely on what is onscreen, for all we know, the lightning jacked up Palp's face and it wasn't just a mask hiding his real appearance. With that in mind, we assume that Palps is just in his 50s or so and Plag was the only one who "cheated death." So Palps wasn't lying if we are to believe that Plag taught him everything he knew (as stated in the film). But he is lying if we are to believe him when he tells Anakin that they'll figure the secret out together.

So, no answer from me. :D All there are are questions and contradictions. But no shock as I've come to expect that from a Lucas film. :)

TheDarthVader
06-03-2005, 12:51 PM
Stillakid, WRONG! On page 60 of the SW ep3 visual dictionary it states, "Unmasked by deflected lightning during his duel with Mace Windu, the Sith Lord's TRUE face is revealed to the world."

B.
TDV

stillakid
06-04-2005, 11:53 AM
Stillakid, WRONG! On page 60 of the SW ep3 visual dictionary it states, "Unmasked by deflected lightning during his duel with Mace Windu, the Sith Lord's TRUE face is revealed to the world."

B.
TDV

Well, one thing's for sure, you know how to use the CAPS key. :D

But I distinctly recall someone resembling myself stating that offscreen, the intention is what you claim above. But ONSCREEN (see, I can use CAPS too! :cool: ), it looks like it's the lightning that jacks Palps up. Judging the chain of events purely by onscreen evidence alone, there is absolutely no indication whatsoever that Palps is really an old guy and that his "normal" appearance is just a mask.

So, I say, TheDarthVader, WRONG! :p

Mad Slanted Powers
06-04-2005, 02:51 PM
The thing is, Palpatine apparently wasn't in as much trouble as he appeared to be. He's telling Anakin he can't hold out any longer, and then a minute later he is unleashing lightning even stronger than before. So, one could infer from what we saw onscreen that he intentionally let his true deformed face appear to make it seem like he truely was in trouble. Also, no other instance of force lightning in the movies caused that sort of deforming.

Also, if you feel that Palpatine retracted his promise, that's not to say that Anakin didn't want to lop off Palpatine's head right there. But, he just saw what Palpatine did to Mace, so he realized it wasn't wise to try to take him on then. However, he is growing stronger. He tells Padmé that with his new powers he can save her and that he can overthrow Palpatine. So, he obviously does have plans to destroy him.

sith_killer_99
06-05-2005, 09:59 AM
Well, as for Palpatines face the novel states that it was damaged as a result of the extended use of his force lightning during his battle with Mace. In fact it goes a step further and has a scene where Palpatine looks upon his "new" face and basically says "Oh well, I shall miss the old face". I am paraphrasing here.


The thing is, Palpatine apparently wasn't in as much trouble as he appeared to be. He's telling Anakin he can't hold out any longer, and then a minute later he is unleashing lightning even stronger than before. So, one could infer from what we saw onscreen that he intentionally let his true deformed face appear to make it seem like he truely was in trouble. Also, no other instance of force lightning in the movies caused that sort of deforming.

During the battle with Mace, Palpatine is pushing the lightning with everythiung he has, trying to overcome Maces defenses, to push past his lightsaber. Hence, not only did he have to sustain a lightning attack, he was doing it in full force. After Mace lost his arm (and his lightsaber) it didn't take much to toss him off the ledge, just a little push with his force lightning. I would harldly say his a second attack was "stronger than before", if so I saw no evidence of it onscreen. Perhaps no other instance of force lightning caused that sort of deforming because no other foe had taken that much power for a sustained amount of time. Sometimes it only takes a small break from sustained output to recover. Perhaps that was all Palpatine needed, a short pause, just enough to "cool down" or recover. Then bam a short bust and over the ledge Mace goes.

In any event, canon wise, it is all just speculation. According to the novel, it was because of the sustained force lightning battle with Mace.

As for Palpatines "true face" or revealing his "age", agian we may never know for sure, canon wise. Also the novel never gives any indication, though it does say that Palpatine looks upon his "new" face, which is to say that if he was keeping it hidden, it was hidden even from himself. :crazed:

Mad Slanted Powers
06-05-2005, 10:40 AM
I've only read up to the end of Dooku in the book. In the SW Insider interview with Ian McDiarmid, he seems to suggest that his true face is revealed, but perhaps it was just a metaphor.

sith_killer_99
06-05-2005, 11:16 AM
I read that interview as well, and took it as a metaphor. But then I had the advanced knowledge of the novel, I read the novel as soon as it was released. Of course, this also taints my viewing of the film.

TheDarthVader
06-10-2005, 03:58 PM
Well, one thing's for sure, you know how to use the CAPS key. :D

But I distinctly recall someone resembling myself stating that offscreen, the intention is what you claim above. But ONSCREEN (see, I can use CAPS too! :cool: ), it looks like it's the lightning that jacks Palps up. Judging the chain of events purely by onscreen evidence alone, there is absolutely no indication whatsoever that Palps is really an old guy and that his "normal" appearance is just a mask.

So, I say, TheDarthVader, WRONG! :p

Yes, it took about 12 hours worth of computer classes, but I have finally learned how to use the caps! And I plan on taking advantage of my new knowledge. <EVIL LAUGH> <---see? <EVIL LAUGH AGAIN> <---yay!

Maybe we are both wrong! :D


Yoda from AOTC..."Join the dark side Dooku has. Lies, deceit!"

It is hard to pick out the truth from the words of a deceitful liar!

B.
TDV

stillakid
06-10-2005, 04:16 PM
Yes, it took about 12 hours worth of computer classes, but I have finally learned how to use the caps! And I plan on taking advantage of my new knowledge. <EVIL LAUGH> <---see? <EVIL LAUGH AGAIN> <---yay!

Maybe we are both wrong! :D


Yoda from AOTC..."Join the dark side Dooku has. Lies, deceit!"

It is hard to pick out the truth from the words of a deceitful liar!

B.
TDV

Or Lucas and/or Ian may be the deceitful liars we've been looking for? :sur:

sith_killer_99
06-10-2005, 08:36 PM
These are not the decietful liars you're looking for.

LOL, sorry, I couldn't resist. :D