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stillakid
05-31-2005, 09:21 AM
240 EXT. TATOOINE-SUNSET

OBI-WAN rides up to the moisture farm homestead on an EOPIE. He dismounts, takes the BABY out of a papoose on his back, and walks toward AUNT BERU, who walks over to greet him. They talk for a moment, and OBI-WAN turns the baby over to the young homesteader. AUNT BERU walks to UNCLE OWEN who is standing on the ridge near the homestead. OBI-WAN leaves as OWEN, BERU, and the BABY watch the twin suns set.

IRIS OUT. END TITLES.

Pretty, isn't it?


I have to admit, I couldn't quell a laugh the first time I saw that shot of Owen looking out at the sunset. OBVIOUSLY, this was another "in joke" of Lucas trying to "tie the trilogies together." An "in joke" that hasn't happened yet if you are watching the saga in episode order. :rolleyes:

But never mind that. That shot has been bugging me and I finally figured out why. What that original shot intended, with Luke, was to illustrate his wanderlust. It's a romantic vision with the hero staring off into the horizon, his future wide open with possibilities never dreamed of before. This is what Luke represented in the story and why having him stare off into the sunset was completely appropriate.

Flash forward (or back) to Owen doing the same thing. Only problem is, that's not who that character is. We know that Owen doesn't have that kind of wanderlust, that he's not a dreamer who wishes for adventure and excitement. He's the guy who's brother goes off to seek fame and fortune while he (Owen) stays close to home making an honest day's pay for an honest day's work. Then he becomes a crotchety old man telling kids to get off his lawn.

So given that, this shot of him romantically staring off into the sunset is really really inappropriate and just downright silly.

The Overlord Returns
05-31-2005, 09:57 AM
Yes, because no one, ever has just watched a sunset for it's beauty. People only watch sunsets if they are suffering from wanderlust. That is the only appropriate moment in which to watch a sunset.

ZachAttack
05-31-2005, 09:59 AM
I just thought he was staring off into the distance wondering what the future is going to bring.

I have to admit, that was one of my favorite scenes in ROTS.

shammykenobi
05-31-2005, 10:31 AM
I thought he was just watching the damn suns set.

megaprime33
05-31-2005, 11:12 AM
Yeah I just thought of it as him looking at the sunsets same way Luke did. I'm sure Owen did it often when Luke was growing up and probably with him which is why Luke does it.

JimJamBonds
05-31-2005, 11:53 AM
Just because Owen is a salty old coot in ANH doesn't mean he's salty in E III. I don't remember much of an issue with him in E II. Besides he's just simply watching the suns set with his new family. And I think its nice in the 'next film' we will see that little tyke looking at that same horizon.

Jim Jam

2-1B
05-31-2005, 01:48 PM
People like Owen who are hard working and focused on their day to day jobs should be rounded up and moved to planets without suns so they don't have to be bothered to look at such a wretched part of nature. Put him in a deep dark mine.

JimJamBonds
05-31-2005, 01:56 PM
People like Owen who are hard working and focused on their day to day jobs should be rounded up and moved to planets without suns so they don't have to be bothered to look at such a wretched part of nature. Put him in a deep dark mine.

Perhaps Caesar, Jabba the Hutt should purchase a Monty Burns Sunblocking Machine then those pesky suns are no longer an issue?

ronhudy
05-31-2005, 02:22 PM
I agree with the first post...

While he may HAVE been watching the "sunset for it's beauty", and someone watching a sunset isn't all that big a deal - the CONTEXT it was done in, OBVIOUSLY referencing the scene w/Luke in ANH - was peaking pretty high on my "Cheese-O-Meter". As I said in another thread, had the movies been made in chronological order, I think we would have seen VERY DIFFERENT films for the prequels. There was SO MUCH of the Original Trilogy referenced in the prequels, and much of it, I hate to say, was silly and didn't lend much to the story. It was done for the outright nostalgic value and not much else...

darko666
05-31-2005, 02:26 PM
i would have rather seen the young anakin staring into the twin sunset at one point in episode 1(maybe the day before the race). to me, that would have been more of a bridging moment in the two trilogys. it would have a better feeling since it's the Skywalkers that are looking into the same twin suns set.
Owen should have told Obi-wan never to come back and walked away w/ Beru and Luke towards their home with the sunsets in the background. it would still give the same feeling, but not with the "trying to force the OT in your face" feeling. but hey, thats just my thoughts.

JimJamBonds
05-31-2005, 02:38 PM
i would have rather seen the young anakin staring into the twin sunset at one point in episode 1(maybe the day before the race). to me, that would have been more of a bridging moment in the two trilogys. it would have a better feeling since it's the Skywalkers that are looking into the same twin suns set.

Yes watching the suns was a throwback to the OT but it also showed that there was still a chance for the universe. The Sith are still alive, nearly all the Jedi are dead its a pretty bleak time for sure. However there are these children that one day might take on the Emperor. That means more to me then a young Anners staring at the suns.

Jim Jam

El Chuxter
05-31-2005, 03:08 PM
Call me insane, but even the first time I saw the film (when I didn't like it), I thought this shot was the most beautiful in the movie.

mabudonicus
05-31-2005, 03:43 PM
Yer nuts, Chux :beard:

I have to agree with stilla and darko but for kind of different reasons- I thought Beru was straining to figure out how she should look, and I thought Owen's only thought should have been "How the $%^& did we get stuck with this?!?! This is B.S.!!!" or something like that-
If there had been some tiny piece of conversation between Owen, Beru and Obi-wan it may have been possible to work out the shot so that Owen argues a bit, then recants and sighs heavily as he walks out to stare blankly into the sunset alone, but the scene that made the film was uncomfortable and silly IMO

Just my 2 cents... and 2 :beard: s

princethomas
05-31-2005, 07:00 PM
SKid, you make another good point here. But I ll put it right back into the category of "its just not a big deal" Lucas has a very difficult job here. Making the prequels in such a way that it makes watching them 1-6 work properly while still giving the rest of us some sense of grand completion. I think this shot works pretty well here, it appeals to us Originals as a good completion. To new people, I think, it works well to give them hope after such a downer of a movie. I dont think that Luke's "wanderlust" is sacrificed at all by this shot.

If I had any problem with it at all, its that its Owen and Beru looking at it. I might have preferred the movie to end with them taking the baby inside and leave Obi-Wan outside looking into the sunset.

JediTricks
05-31-2005, 08:35 PM
I agree with the first post...

While he may HAVE been watching the "sunset for it's beauty", and someone watching a sunset isn't all that big a deal - the CONTEXT it was done in, OBVIOUSLY referencing the scene w/Luke in ANH - was peaking pretty high on my "Cheese-O-Meter". As I said in another thread, had the movies been made in chronological order, I think we would have seen VERY DIFFERENT films for the prequels. There was SO MUCH of the Original Trilogy referenced in the prequels, and much of it, I hate to say, was silly and didn't lend much to the story. It was done for the outright nostalgic value and not much else...I feel the same way, and that sunset ending bothered me a little when I first saw it, I had a discussion with a buddy of mine who was sure it was supposed to be a sunRISE which would have bookended those scenes, but it's not because Owen and Beru are looking the same direction as Luke was in ANH, and suns don't rise from the same horizon they set at.

And the general feel of "let's put this in the movie because it was in the OT" has bothered me quite a lot as well, using nostalgia outside its context makes it feel empty and pointless I think.

Imperial Monarche
05-31-2005, 11:36 PM
SKid, you make another good point here. But I ll put it right back into the category of "its just not a big deal" Lucas has a very difficult job here. Making the prequels in such a way that it makes watching them 1-6 work properly while still giving the rest of us some sense of grand completion.

Careful...talking like that may wake the stillakid giant and he will reign terror upon our grand city of "Lucas-lovers" about how Lucas F'd up and that something like this is a big deal and what not...he'll eventually respond to what you said, so I'll try not to put too many words in his mouth. :D

Seriously, though. Someone once said in another thread about how Owen is looking off into the sunset while Beru goes to take the child shows Owen's stubborness to Obi-Wan, someone that represents everything that he will grow to dislike. So, I actually see this scene as somewhat irony...Owen looks out into the suns, content with his place of raising this child and living the rest of his life on this farm while Luke looks out into the suns with visions and a desire to leave to see what lays in his destiny.

stillakid
06-01-2005, 01:45 AM
Yes, because no one, ever has just watched a sunset for it's beauty. .

Not in a movie they don't. I suppose if we got treated to watching Owen take a 20 minute dump in the middle of the movie, that would be just fine too because people "do that in real life"?

:rolleyes:

A movie has two-ish hours to tell a story and EVERYTHING that happens, is seen, is said, and heard is supposed to MEAN something. Stuff isn't just tossed into a script haphazardly just because it might happen in real life. A writer uses stuff that happens in real life in order to give an audience something to empathize with, not "just because." So looking at this idea of staring off into the sunset, it definitely means something when Luke does it in ANH. It means that he is restless and tired of being stuck on the farm when great adventures are out on the horizon.

Cut to ROTS when George copies the exact same thing in another of his "nostalgia" moments that makes no sense if you watch the movies in Episode order (because that which he is referring to hasn't happened yet in linear time). Clearly he is trying to emulate the Luke shot, which also means that the same meaning is trying to be conveyed. He's put Owen in the same position as Luke, who wasn't just looking at pretty geography or weather patterns...thematically Luke was looking into a future that he dreams of that is far away from Tatooine. Is that what we are to believe is Owen's intention as he stares off into the sunset? That Owen once had dreams to get off that rock?

2-1B
06-01-2005, 03:41 AM
Actually I wouldn't mind seeing Owen take a dump because I wonder where they do it ? Do they have indoor plumbing in that hovel ? If they have an outhouse how far away is it, after all you already dug a hole in the ground to make your house so how close could you dig another hole for a latrine without seapage into your house ? Sanitation is an issue. Or do they just plop from the end of that ridge where Luke talks to Beru and have a treadwell droid clean it up down there ?

I really don't know and now I wish George had put this into the movie.

JimJamBonds
06-01-2005, 11:24 AM
A movie has two-ish hours to tell a story and EVERYTHING that happens, is seen, is said, and heard is supposed to MEAN something. Stuff isn't just tossed into a script haphazardly just because it might happen in real life. A writer uses stuff that happens in real life in order to give an audience something to empathize with, not "just because."

I don't know about that Stillakid, there wasn't much of a point to most anything in Napoleon Dynamite. lol

Jim Jam

ronhudy
06-01-2005, 06:13 PM
I don't know about that Stillakid, there wasn't much of a point to most anything in Napoleon Dynamite. lol

Jim Jam

But that's exactly WHAT makes Napolean Dynamite so great...the fact that it is as pointless as a rubber ball! Even my 9 and 10 year old sons crack up during the scenes where Napolean just stands there and sighs...even they can appreciate the irony of feeling sorry for the guy, yet finding his pain hilarious at the same time!

It takes a different breed of movie viewer to appreciate that kind of film...some people just don't "get it"...:)

JimJamBonds
06-02-2005, 12:11 AM
Ohh I get that movie all right ronhudy, and laughed plenty I was mearly using that as an example of 'random-things-thrown-together-and-82-min.-later-you-have-a-movie.'

Jim Jam

ronhudy
06-02-2005, 05:15 PM
Ohh I get that movie all right ronhudy, and laughed plenty I was mearly using that as an example of 'random-things-thrown-together-and-82-min.-later-you-have-a-movie.'

Jim Jam

Gotcha...I wasn't referring to you specifically as not "getting it"...just that there are many out there who don't. There's a lot of underlying themes in "Napolean Dynamite" I think, and ironically, the characters are about as emotionless as possible, all the while going through some significant and emotional turning points in their lives - falling in love, being a new kid in school, learning to appreciate your family - there's a lot in there.

Jargo
06-02-2005, 10:15 PM
Given the radiation levels of having twin suns so close I wouldn't want to be standing outside even if the suns were setting. And what kind of moron takes a newborn baby into an environment like that? oh yes the one who completely fails to destroy the sith apprentice. Even when he's limbless and frying Kenobi walks away and fails to finish the job. Speaking of which doesn't Vader say to Kenobi "when i left you I was but the learner now I am the master"? Anakin left Kenobi? waitaminute. talk about continuity error. And don't try and tell me George planned it that way so Anakin leaving is a metaphorical leaving meaning when he turned to the dark side in Palpatine's office. That line in ANH means when Vader and Kenobi last met.

*I'm always digressing. mumble mutter...*

stillakid
06-02-2005, 11:58 PM
Speaking of which doesn't Vader say to Kenobi "when i left you I was but the learner now I am the master"? Anakin left Kenobi? waitaminute. talk about continuity error. And don't try and tell me George planned it that way so Anakin leaving is a metaphorical leaving meaning when he turned to the dark side in Palpatine's office. That line in ANH means when Vader and Kenobi last met.

*I'm always digressing. mumble mutter...*

:) I've been planning on starting a thread which examines all of that dialogue from the OT which so clearly contradicts what the Prequels show us regarding the Anakin/Obi history. But I haven't had time to compose it yet...soon. :) Of course, Prequel Worshippers will just shrug it off as being "nitpicking" even though the evidence is right there for anyone to see.

Droid
06-03-2005, 07:35 AM
Here is the dialogue that did or should have locked in Lucas a bit on what happend in the prequels. Some of the dialogue is explained within the original trilogy itself, putting little pressure on the prequels, but setting the tone for the prequels nonetheless as it references the past. Whether the dialogue contradicts the prequels, and to what degree, is left to each person's "point of view":

A New Hope:

C-CP0: Vaporators! Sir, my first job was programming binary load lifters, very similar to your vaporators in most respects.

C-3P0: He says that he is the property of Obi-wan Kenobi, a resident of these parts and it is a private message for him. Quite frankly, sir, I don't know what he's talking about. Our last master was Captain Antilles.

Own: He won't. I don't think he exists anymore. He died about the same
time as your father.

Luke: He claims to be the property of an Obi-wan Kenobi.
...
Ben: I haven't gone by the name of Obi-wan since, oh, before you were born. ... I don't seem to remember ever owning a droid.

Obi-wan: That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals, thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved.
Luke: You fought in the Clone Wars?
Obi-wan: Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father ... He was the best starpilot in the galaxy and a cunning warrior ... and he was a good friend, which reminds me. I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-wan on some damn fool idealisitic crusade like your father did.

Obi-wan: an elegant weapon of a more civilized age.

Obi-wan: a young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. And now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force.

Leia: General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars.

Vader: I sense something. A presence I've not felt since ...

Tarkin: Obi-wan Kenobi? What makes you think so?
Vader: A tremor in the Force. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my old master.
Tarkin: Surely he must be dead by now.
Vader: Don't underestimate the Force.
Tarkin: The Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion.

Vader: The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now I am the master.

I'll do Empire in my next post. Feel free to transfer this stuff to another thread stillakid ...

Droid
06-03-2005, 07:41 AM
The Empire Strikes Back:

Obi-wan: You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me.

Luke: Still, there something familiar about this place.

NOTE: R2 is with Yoda on the blockade runner in Revenge of the Sith, making their amusing fight on Dagobah a little questionable in my mind. Did R2 or should R2 have recognized Yoda knowing they were looking for a Jedi Master? Did R2 have any knowledge of the Jedi Masters of the Old Republic and what they looked like?

From the DVD version:
Emperor: We have a new enemy, the young rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.
Darth Vader: How is that possible?

Yoda: Why must you become a Jedi?
Luke: Mostly because of my father I guess.
Yoda: Father, powerful Jedi was he. Powerful Jedi.

Yoda: I cannot teach him. The boy has no patience.
Obi-wan: he will learn patience.
Yoda: Much anger in him. Like his father.
Obi-wan: Was I any different when you taught me?

Yoda: You are reckless.
Obi-wan: So was I, if you remember.

(When was Obi-wan ever impatient, angry, or reckless in the prequels? I know, I know, it all happened when Obi-wan was a youngling, before the Phantom Menace)

Yoda: That place is stong with the Dark Side of the Force. A domain of evil it is.

Obi-wan: That boy is our last hope.
Yoda: No, there is another.

Vader: Obi-wan never told you what happened to your father.
Luke: he told me enough. He told me you killed him.
Vader: No, I am your father.

Droid
06-03-2005, 07:48 AM
Return of the Jedi:

C-3P0: If I told you half the things I've heard about this Jabba the Hutt, you'd probably short circuit.

Yoda: Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor or suffer your father's fate you will.

Obi-wan: Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view.

Obi-wan: Anakin was a good friend. When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot, but I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.

Obi-wan: He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil.

Obi-wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.
Luke: Yoda spoke of another.
Obi-wan: The other he spoke of was your twin sister.
Luke: But I have no sister.
Obi-wan: To protect you both from the Emperor you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.
Luke: Leia, Leia is my siter.
Obi-wan: Your insight serves you will. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor.

Luke: Leia, do you remember your mother, your real mother?
Leia: Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.
Luke: What do you remember?
Leia: Just images really, feelings.
Luke: Tell me.
Leia: She was very beautiful, king, but sad. Why are you asking me this?
Luke: I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her.

Luke: I know there is good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. ... Come with me.
Vader: Obi-wan once thought as you do. You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master.

(It was clearly Padme who thought as Luke did. Maybe Lucas will change it for the next version so he says, "Your mother once thought as you do.")

Emperor: Your hate has made you powerful. Now fulfill your destiny. Take your father's place at my side.

Bantha274
06-03-2005, 12:43 PM
The words "OVER-ANALYZE" come to mind while reading this thread. What a wonderful way to ruin a fantasy movie.

I think some of you take this stuff WAY to seriously.

Droid
06-03-2005, 01:41 PM
The words "OVER-ANALYZE" come to mind while reading this thread. What a wonderful way to ruin a fantasy movie.

I think some of you take this stuff WAY to seriously.

I love all of the Star Wars movies, including the prequels. The greatness of all six movies outweigh the flaws in my opinion. That does not mean that it is not fun to discuss or debate the strenghts and weaknesses of the various movies in a discussion forum.

I also think any piece of art (including film) worthy of being admired should be able to stand up to some analysis or criticism.

evenflow
06-03-2005, 04:27 PM
I am sure Owen had what Luke had, but when this kid was dropped off at his dorr step all those dreams where shot.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
06-03-2005, 06:15 PM
Prequel lover to the rescue! :D

First, on the sunset: I love this scene. Owen and Beru were unsure about the future, as many people were, since it turned out that the Chancellor was a Sith Lord and all the Jedi have just been killed. Granted, Tatooine wasn't in the Republic, but there was still a crazy guy ruling the galaxy. Wouldn't you have been worried and unsure about what's to come? Especially if some guy just handed you a baby.

Now for my take on the "contradicting" dialogue:


C-3PO: Vaporators! Sir, my first job was programming binary load lifters, very similar to your vaporators in most respects.
I'm going to say that when Antilles wiped C-3PO's memory in ROTS, he altered it to include other memories. Or, maybe C-3PO did indeed program binary load lifters while on Alderaan. Either way, it's the product of a faulty memory.


C-3PO: He says that he is the property of Obi-wan Kenobi, a resident of these parts and it is a private message for him. Quite frankly, sir, I don't know what he's talking about. Our last master was Captain Antilles.
Wait, what's wrong with this one? It shows Antilles at the start of the movie, and he's their master. Please tell me why this doesn't work.


Owen: He won't. I don't think he exists anymore. He died about the same
time as your father.
You can tell he's lying through his teeth by the way he acts. One of his next lines, in response to Beru's "He has too much of his father in him," is "That's what I'm afraid of." He sure as hell ain't talking about being a pilot. But anyway, in a sense, when Anakin "died," Obi-Wan died too, or at least went out of existence as far as most people know. From a certain point of view. ;)


Luke: He claims to be the property of an Obi-wan Kenobi.
...
Ben: I haven't gone by the name of Obi-wan since, oh, before you were born. ... I don't seem to remember ever owning a droid.
Obi-Wan's memory on exactly when he changed his name probably isn't clear. He likely changed it the day he went to Tatooine, so not too long after Luke was born. And Obi-Wan's a habitual liar anyway, so that might have had something to do with it. He never really owned a droid, though he did use a few from the Jedi temple. But none of them were "the property of an Obi-Wan Kenobi," as R2 said.


Obi-Wan: That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals, thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved.
Luke: You fought in the Clone Wars?
Obi-wan: Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father ... He was the best starpilot in the galaxy and a cunning warrior ... and he was a good friend, which reminds me. I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-wan on some damn fool idealisitic crusade like your father did.
I bet that Obi-Wan and Owen later talked about Luke's future, but we don't need to see that discussion on-screen as it is all explained later. When Anakin left Tatooine to go help Obi-Wan on Geonosis, apparently Owen didn't like it. I don't think that Luke would've liked it if Obi-Wan had said, "This is your father's lightsaber. I nicked it from him after I cut off his legs and left him for dead. But, now he's Darth Vader, and he wants to make you evil. So, you wanna be a Jedi or what?" :D


Obi-Wan: an elegant weapon of a more civilized age.
Again, what's wrong with this? Obi-Wan obviously believed that the age of the Jedi was better than the age of the Sith.


Obi-Wan: a young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. And now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force.
This is all explained in ROTJ, and there are some true bits in there as well.


Leia: General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars.
Uhh, Obi-Wan served the Republic, of which Bail was a big part.


Vader: I sense something. A presence I've not felt since ...

Tarkin: Obi-wan Kenobi? What makes you think so?
Vader: A tremor in the Force. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my old master.
Tarkin: Surely he must be dead by now.
Vader: Don't underestimate the Force.
Tarkin: The Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion.
We talked about this in another thread. Tarkin likely grouped together all Force users when he called them "Jedi."


Vader: The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now I am the master.
He left Obi-Wan for Sidious, and now he thinks he's superior to Obi-Wan. Plus, he was probably mad at not being a Jedi Master, and he likes being at the top.

JediTricks
06-03-2005, 08:39 PM
You can tell he's lying through his teeth by the way he acts. One of his next lines, in response to Beru's "He has too much of his father in him," is "That's what I'm afraid of." He sure as hell ain't talking about being a pilot.How can he be acting like he's lying when the ANH script had Anakin Skywalker firmly DEAD? As for being a pilot, we're shown in ANH that Owen knows Anakin was a Jedi, why assume that we're supposed to believe Owen was talking about being a pilot in that line?



Uhh, Obi-Wan served the Republic, of which Bail was a big part. It doesn't work that way in our government, a senator can't go to Iraq and start ordering the military around because he's not in their chain of command.

Droid
06-03-2005, 10:31 PM
Perhaps I was not clear. I am not saying that I believe every line I listed contradicted the prequels in any way. I am saying that I have attempted to list those lines of dialogue from the original trilogy which I believe referenced the past and provided the guildelines Lucas needed to follow in writing the prequels. Once again, I said:


Here is the dialogue that did or should have locked in Lucas a bit on what happend in the prequels. Some of the dialogue is explained within the original trilogy itself, putting little pressure on the prequels, but setting the tone for the prequels nonetheless as it references the past. Whether the dialogue contradicts the prequels, and to what degree, is left to each person's "point of view."

I personally believe there is no unexplainable plot flaw in the movies if you work hard enough at it. I believe it is to each person to decide which lines of dialogue in the original trilogy don't ring true when watching the prequels. I think Lucas wrote the prequels the way he wanted and felt a bit constrained by original trilogy dialogue. But this is not a new problem. I do not believe him when he claims the story for all six was all planned out from the start. I don't think he knew when he wrote A New Hope that Vader was Luke's father or that Luke and Leia were twins, though I think those revelations work well in the overall story and don't contradict A New Hope (once you accept
Obi-wan will lie when it suits him). I think Lucas had things in Empire that mildly contradicted A New Hope and things in Jedi that mildly contradicted Empire and a New Hope. I do not think the prequels are really the story Lucas had in mind when writing A New Hope or the original trilogy and I think he would further change lines of dialogure from the original trilogy if he could.

For me the biggest contradictions between the two trilogies are that Qui-Gon did what Obi-wan was supposed to; Obi-wan is never portrayed as reckless, impatient, or full of anger; Anakin and Obi-wan are never really friends; there is no real reason Leia would remember Padme more than Luke, and Obi-wan never really tries to bring Anakin back to the good side in Revenge of the Sith the way Vader claims he did in Jedi.

As I have said, I love all six movies, but I do not need to pretend they are perfect or defend them blindly to prove that love.

stillakid
06-04-2005, 11:39 AM
I personally believe there is no unexplainable plot flaw in the movies if you work hard enough at it. I believe it is to each person to decide which lines of dialogue in the original trilogy don't ring true when watching the prequels. I think Lucas wrote the prequels the way he wanted and felt a bit constrained by original trilogy dialogue. But this is not a new problem. I do not believe him when he claims the story for all six was all planned out from the start. I don't think he knew when he wrote A New Hope that Vader was Luke's father or that Luke and Leia were twins, though I think those revelations work well in the overall story and don't contradict A New Hope (once you accept
Obi-wan will lie when it suits him). I think Lucas had things in Empire that mildly contradicted A New Hope and things in Jedi that mildly contradicted Empire and a New Hope. I do not think the prequels are really the story Lucas had in mind when writing A New Hope or the original trilogy and I think he would further change lines of dialogure from the original trilogy if he could.

For me the biggest contradictions between the two trilogies are that Qui-Gon did what Obi-wan was supposed to; Obi-wan is never portrayed as reckless, impatient, or full of anger; Anakin and Obi-wan are never really friends; there is no real reason Leia would remember Padme more than Luke, and Obi-wan never really tries to bring Anakin back to the good side in Revenge of the Sith the way Vader claims he did in Jedi.

As I have said, I love all six movies, but I do not need to pretend they are perfect or defend them blindly to prove that love.
Roger that! :) That's pretty much all I've been trying to say all along too. That one can choose to love/enjoy them despite the empirical problems that indeed exist. One can rationalize/explain the problems away, but that doesn't mean that the problems don't exist. It just means that the viewer has to invent a way around them. Maybe Lucas came from another school of thought, but the way I learned is that it is the writer's responsibility to plug plot holes. It's not a job for the audience. We're just supposed to sit down, suspend our disbelief, and enjoy ourselves two hours. Step one is easy, but step two can grow difficult if the storyteller fails to adequately prepare the story so that the audience gets knocked out of that fantasy world because of :confused: or :rolleyes: moments.

I thought ROTS was fun! :D Full of massive character and plot problems, but fun nonetheless.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
06-04-2005, 05:49 PM
How can he be acting like he's lying when the ANH script had Anakin Skywalker firmly DEAD? As for being a pilot, we're shown in ANH that Owen knows Anakin was a Jedi, why assume that we're supposed to believe Owen was talking about being a pilot in that line?

I know, I said he wasn't talking about being a pilot. I was just saying that Owen wasn't pointing out Anakin's good qualities. He didn't want Luke to turn out the same way Anakin did. From simply an ANH standpoint, we see that Owen didn't want Luke to be a Jedi, but after seeing the rest of the saga (mostly ESB), it now seems like Owen is afraid that Luke will make the same choices that Ani did.


It doesn't work that way in our government, a senator can't go to Iraq and start ordering the military around because he's not in their chain of command.
Yeah, but we don't have Jedi or lightsabers in our military. :D But she didn't say "served under my father," she just said "served my father."

Mr. JabbaJohnL
06-04-2005, 06:10 PM
I only continue to do this so Stilla doesn't have to do it himself at a later date. ;)


Obi-Wan: You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me.
Yoda was Obi-Wan's superior, and he did teach him a few times in his life. As a youngling, Yoda taught him, and also when he was teaching him how to be a spirit on Tatooine. I guess they communicated through the Force, or through Qui-Gon?


Luke: Still, there something familiar about this place.
Luke senses Yoda's presence from when Yoda was watching over him on Tatooine. Yoda talks about this later in his hut.


NOTE: R2 is with Yoda on the blockade runner in Revenge of the Sith, making their amusing fight on Dagobah a little questionable in my mind. Did R2 or should R2 have recognized Yoda knowing they were looking for a Jedi Master? Did R2 have any knowledge of the Jedi Masters of the Old Republic and what they looked like?
He was just helping out his current master, Luke, to get back his stuff.


From the DVD version:
Emperor: We have a new enemy, the young rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.
Darth Vader: How is that possible?
Vader is playing dumb to Palpatine. He's already been looking for Luke to turn him to the Dark Side and help overthrow the Emperor, and he knows Luke is his son. When he found out that the Force-sensitive kid who blew up the Death Star was named Luke Skywalker, I doubt it took much for Vader to realize that Padmé's child had survived. I think that Vader was probably disappointed to learn that Palpatine found out about his son, since he was going to use Luke to rule the galaxy (continuing with the theme of Anakin wanting to rule the galaxy with his family), so he acted like he didn't know that his kid was alive.


Yoda: Why must you become a Jedi?
Luke: Mostly because of my father I guess.
Yoda: Father, powerful Jedi was he. Powerful Jedi.
I don't understand what you're getting at. Anakin was a powerful Jedi.


Yoda: I cannot teach him. The boy has no patience.
Obi-Wan: He will learn patience.
Yoda: Much anger in him. Like his father.
Obi-Wan: Was I any different when you taught me?
When Obi-Wan was a padawan, he was itching to start the trials, become a knight, and train Anakin, but Yoda thought he wasn't ready. "Agree with the Council's decision, I do not."


Yoda: You are reckless.
Obi-Wan: So was I, if you remember.
See above answer. Even though he wasn't as reckless as, say, Qui-Gon or Anakin, he wasn't exactly the most straight-laced Jedi either. This was all to get Yoda to train Luke, so he was trying to persuade him.


Yoda: That place is stong with the Dark Side of the Force. A domain of evil it is.
Though this wasn't elaborated upon in the prequels, I don't think it needed to be. The whole cave tree/Vader spirit scene is mysterious, but I think it should be.


Obi-Wan: That boy is our last hope.
Yoda: No, there is another.
I believe that Obi-Wan was putting all his faith in Luke but Yoda was still hoping that Leia could help if Luke couldn't do it all on his own.


Vader: Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father.
Luke: he told me enough. He told me you killed him.
Vader: No, I am your father.
What's wrong with this scene? That's what Obi-Wan told Luke; Luke thought it was true.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
06-04-2005, 06:29 PM
There were a few statements that I felt didn't need to be explained, so I cut them out.


C-3P0: If I told you half the things I've heard about this Jabba the Hutt, you'd probably short circuit.
Maybe Luke told him about Jabba, being the main crime lord on Tatooine. C-3PO never says he met Jabba before, though.


Yoda: Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor or suffer your father's fate you will.
Palpatine was powerful and could manipulate anyone into believing what he wanted them to believe. He was very good at turning people to the Dark Side, as he did a few times before.


Obi-Wan: Anakin was a good friend. When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot, but I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.
He was the champeen pod racer and the only human that could do it (apparently). Obi-Wan was surprised that the midis in Ani were so high and that he was exceptionally skilled in the Force. He did take it upon himself to train Anakin. He could've said "Screw you, Qui-Gon" and not trained the kid, but he wanted to make his master happy, since he gave him his word. He said "I will train Anakin, without the approval of the Council if I must," so he was willing to do it by whatever means necessary. He felt that he had failed in training Anakin as a Jedi, as illustrated when he said "I have failed you, Anakin . . . I have failed you."


Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.
Luke: Yoda spoke of another.
Obi-Wan: The other he spoke of was your twin sister.
Luke: But I have no sister.
Obi-Wan: To protect you both from the Emperor you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.
Luke: Leia, Leia is my siter.
Obi-Wan: Your insight serves you will. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor.
They planned to train Luke as a Jedi when the time was right, so they could get rid of the Sith forever. I see nothing wrong with this passage.


Luke: Leia, do you remember your mother, your real mother?
Leia: Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.
Luke: What do you remember?
Leia: Just images really, feelings.
Luke: Tell me.
Leia: She was very beautiful, kind, but sad. Why are you asking me this?
Luke: I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her.
I don't know why Luke doesn't remember Padmé but Leia does, but I believe that Leia remembered her from the Force. She remembers images and feelings, and all of those attributes she mentioned were displayed in Padmé even right before she died.


Luke: I know there is good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. ... Come with me.
Vader: Obi-Wan once thought as you do. You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master.
Though Padmé tried to turn Anakin back from the Dark Side, it wasn't like Obi-Wan just kicked Ani's butt without at least trying a little bit to turn him back. He saw that Anakin was too far gone to save on Mustafar. "Then you really are lost."

Feel free to dispute anything I said.

Droid
06-04-2005, 09:52 PM
I guess I'll say one last time that my list was not a list of quotes from the original trilogy that contradicted the prequel trilogy. It was a list of all of the quotes from the original trilogy that referenced the past and provided the basic sketch of what needed to/should have happened in the prequels.

No one needs to explain why, "No, I am your father." doesn't contradict the prequels. I AM NOT CLAIMING IT DOES.

BoShek
06-05-2005, 10:02 AM
I am not afraid to say I started to cry when I saw this.

stillakid
06-05-2005, 10:54 AM
Feel free to dispute anything I said.


:) I actually agree with all of your conclusions except the bits about Yoda being Ober's master and the part about Leia remembering mommie via the Force. But that's all been discussed ad infinitum so no point rehashing it here.


But there is another quote from scripture that hasn't been brought up here or anywhere else as far as I can tell. I'll quote it here but start a new thread for it. Watch your local listings. :)





BEN
That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
06-05-2005, 01:53 PM
I guess I'll say one last time that my list was not a list of quotes from the original trilogy that contradicted the prequel trilogy. It was a list of all of the quotes from the original trilogy that referenced the past and provided the basic sketch of what needed to/should have happened in the prequels.

No one needs to explain why, "No, I am your father." doesn't contradict the prequels. I AM NOT CLAIMING IT DOES.
I know, I was just doing it since Stilla said he was going to make a list of phrases that contradicted the prequels. And since these reference the prequels, I thought I'd just talk about them anyway.


But there is another quote from scripture that hasn't been brought up here or anywhere else as far as I can tell. I'll quote it here but start a new thread for it. Watch your local listings.

I thought I already explained it, but I didn't go into much detail so here it is. When Obi-Wan said "here," he meant Tatooine. The only time Anakin went to Tatooine as a Jedi was for Shmi's death. I bet that Owen was kind of mad at Anakin since he just up and left during his own mother's funeral to go save some guy named Obi-Wan without so much as a "goodbye" to the Larses. Even though Shmi wasn't Owen's real mother, he probably felt a strong bond with her and didn't like that Ani and Padmé just left while they were paying their respects. He probably thought that Anakin should have waited, stayed there for a while, and "not gotten involved."

But the way Ben said it, in his story about Anakin, made it sound like Anakin was living on Tatooine with Owen his whole life and then left to go "get involved" with, I guess, the Clone Wars. It's just another example of Obi-Wan and his crazy-a** "point of view" stuff.

Droid
06-05-2005, 03:01 PM
But the way Ben said it, in his story about Anakin, made it sound like Anakin was living on Tatooine with Owen his whole life and then left to go "get involved" with, I guess, the Clone Wars. It's just another example of Obi-Wan and his crazy-a** "point of view" stuff.

Some might say, "just another example of George Lucas and his point of view."

JediTricks
06-07-2005, 01:27 AM
From simply an ANH standpoint, we see that Owen didn't want Luke to be a Jedi, but after seeing the rest of the saga (mostly ESB), it now seems like Owen is afraid that Luke will make the same choices that Ani did.That's not how the saga was written or the movie acted though, no matter how the story may play out now, it wasn't made that way.


Yeah, but we don't have Jedi or lightsabers in our military. :DA general is still a general.

But she didn't say "served under my father," she just said "served my father." What, Obi-Wan served Bail some tea???

2-1B
06-07-2005, 02:59 AM
Bail was a member of the loyalist committee and was even standing there as Palps lorded over his new army. This line does not seem out of place to me at all. :)

2-1B
06-07-2005, 03:01 AM
Also, Obi-Wan's allegiance is to the Senate. That's who he works for. Serves. lol

JediTricks
06-07-2005, 03:16 AM
Bail was a member of the loyalist committee and was even standing there as Palps lorded over his new army. This line does not seem out of place to me at all. :)Padme was also a member of the Loyalist Committee if I remember correctly, yet she and Bail both were AGAINST the creation of a centralized military for the Republic (damn you Lucasfilm-created EU holonet news website that was surpisingly engrossing for filling me with even more useless prequel facts). Neither Padme nor Bail are shown at any time to be in any way leaders of the Republic Army of which Obi-Wan served. If it was meant to suggest that Obi-Wan served the Republic, Leia's comment about "served my father in the Clone Wars" makes no sense A) because Obi-Wan served all people in the Republic just as equally since Obi-Wan is never shown serving even Bail's military interests; and B) because Obi-Wan served the Galactic Republic before the Clone Wars as well as during, and was true to the meaning of the Republic even after it had been abolished.


Also, Obi-Wan's allegiance is to the Senate. That's who he works for. Serves. lol And we see this to be true... when?

2-1B
06-07-2005, 03:28 AM
Obi-Wan tells Anakin in Revenge of the Sith that the Jedi serve the Senate, not the head of the Senate (Palpatine).

Something similar to that is what he said. Sorry I don't have the exact quote, I have seen it enough times to know but I'm blanking right now. It's in the scene right after Anakin is assigned to spy on Palps. :)

princethomas
06-07-2005, 08:21 AM
From Owen's point of view, he probably talked quite a bit to Shmi about Anakin and how he left Tatooine to go and become a Jedi. Then she gets kidnapped. The kid shows up, angry and weird. Goes and gets her body, makes some weird funeral remarks and then runs off to save some other Jedi. Then no one hears from him again and Obi shows up with his kid. Its seems unlikly that Obi would tell Owen that Ani turned to Darth Vader, so he probably just tells Owen that hes dead.
In Owen's mind "stayed here and not gotten involved" probably refers to when he left the first time as a child. Had he done so, Cliegg would have probably bought them both, his mom wouldnt have been kidnapped. Cuz Ani would have stopped that. And theyd have been brothers living happily.

stillakid
06-07-2005, 09:04 AM
From Owen's point of view, he probably talked quite a bit to Shmi about Anakin and how he left Tatooine to go and become a Jedi. Then she gets kidnapped. The kid shows up, angry and weird. Goes and gets her body, makes some weird funeral remarks and then runs off to save some other Jedi. Then no one hears from him again and Obi shows up with his kid. Its seems unlikly that Obi would tell Owen that Ani turned to Darth Vader, so he probably just tells Owen that hes dead.
In Owen's mind "stayed here and not gotten involved" probably refers to when he left the first time as a child. Had he done so, Cliegg would have probably bought them both, his mom wouldnt have been kidnapped. Cuz Ani would have stopped that. And theyd have been brothers living happily.

Except that it doesn't work with one of Old Ben's next lines:



BEN
I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned-fool idealistic crusade like your father did.

The obvious implication being that Obi, Owen, and Ani were all roughly the same age and had time to hang out together at some point after Obi Wan discovered Anakin and began to train him. I mean, if Obi Wan decided to train Anakin on his own, he isn't about to parade the protege around the Jedi Temple. He's going to take him somewhere more private...to his brother's house on some backwater planet where he won't get in trouble.

This all happened slightly before the Clone Wars kick in. When the call comes in, Obi is forced to leave to fight. Anakin wants to go but isn't really ready yet (like Luke in ESB), but Obi lets him come anyway. It is during this time in war when Anakin is most vulnerable to "taking the quick and easy path" that Palps meets him and he eventually turns to the darkside.

After Luke is born, Obi has need to hide the kid somewhere secret and takes him back to Tatooine which is far from the beaten path. Owen has since moved to the outskirts and Obi moves himself even farther out so that his Force tremors won't give the boy away. In the meantime, Owen takes his job of raising Luke "right" seriously and tries to teach the boy the meaning of working hard and earning his keep. Obi wanted to start teaching Luke about being a Jedi, but Owen kept pushing him off for fear that Luke would suffer the same fate as their former friend, Anakin.


Well, that's what is was supposed to be like anyway. What we got was unrecognizable in the Star Wars continuity. This is what I mean when I say that George had the Prequel story sitting right under his nose the whole time. Perhaps the minute details weren't there, but enough of the basic foundation was and all it takes is a little thought to sketch out the plot as established. Somebody didn't bother to do his homework.

princethomas
06-07-2005, 10:26 PM
No, what I said applies to both statements:
He didnt hold with your father's ideals, thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved.

and

He feared you might follow old obi-wan on some damned fool idealistic crusade like your father did.

These are the same statement. Owen feels that Anakin took off to become a Guardian of peace and justice in the Galaxy which he reguards as a damned fool idealistic crusade. It brought nothing but pain to everyone involved. This works perfectly. There is no reason to think otherwise.

The problem with PT bashers I think is this. I think they created an idea of what the prequels must be like, base on the OT dialogue. And not the PT contradicts their ideas. But it really does not contradict what is actually on film in the OT. There are very few if any connections that require any "reaching" to make clear.

stillakid
06-07-2005, 10:46 PM
No, what I said applies to both statements:
He didnt hold with your father's ideals, thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved.

and

He feared you might follow old obi-wan on some damned fool idealistic crusade like your father did.

These are the same statement. Owen feels that Anakin took off to become a Guardian of peace and justice in the Galaxy which he reguards as a damned fool idealistic crusade. It brought nothing but pain to everyone involved. This works perfectly. There is no reason to think otherwise.

Yeah, there is. Obi's statements indicate that there is a specific "crusade" that Anakin followed Obi out to take part in, like a Clone War perhaps. What you're suggesting is that the statement is merely a generic reference to the Jedi Charter of providing peace and justice. I don't believe for a second that Owen would be grumpy about such a thing. Instead, Owen would look at history to see a young Anakin hook up with a "wizard" and follow him into a battle which eventually turns him into the uber-bad guy of the galaxy. This would prompt Owen's reluctance to hand Luke over to Old Ben for fear that Luke would repeat the sins of the father, which just so happens to be what the story is about.


The problem with PT bashers I think is this. I think they created an idea of what the prequels must be like, base on the OT dialogue. And not the PT contradicts their ideas. But it really does not contradict what is actually on film in the OT. There are very few if any connections that require any "reaching" to make clear.
It isn't the number of connections that is in question...it is the importance of the connections in question. Of course we created an idea of what the Prequels should be like based on the OT. To suggest that there is any other alternative is ludicrous. Once an author establishes a continuity or a history, it is his responsibility to adhere to it. If he chooses not to, he can place a disclaimer in front of the work saying so. Arthur C. Clarke did so with his novel 2061. He has an entire section explaining what and why he changed his own established elements and continuity from his previous novels in the series. Lucas altered his story in more than a few ways and is trying to pass it off as being accurate. It'll take more than a few fanboys with an agenda to convince the rest of us otherwise. :)

JediTricks
06-08-2005, 08:00 PM
Obi-Wan tells Anakin in Revenge of the Sith that the Jedi serve the Senate, not the head of the Senate (Palpatine).

Something similar to that is what he said. Sorry I don't have the exact quote, I have seen it enough times to know but I'm blanking right now. It's in the scene right after Anakin is assigned to spy on Palps. :)"Our allegiance is to the Senate, not to its leader who has managed to stay in office long after his term has expired." Allegiance and servitude are not the same thing, allegiance is an issue of loyalty, not an issue of who one works for, which is what I was responding to in your claim: "Also, Obi-Wan's allegiance is to the Senate. That's who he works for. Serves. lol" I don't see anything in Obi-Wan's statement that ties the Jedi's allegiance to the Senate into whom they work for.

In Obi-Wan's quote, Obi-Wan is trying to explain to Anakin that treason would be betraying the Republic and its representatives, not the man who is its current leader, it has nothing to do with who the Jedi work for.

2-1B
06-09-2005, 01:19 AM
Oh, okay, maybe that's why Mace honors the request from Palpatine in AOTC that Kenobi guard Amidala ? :)

What about Valorum "secretly dispatching" 2 Jedi Knights in TPM, and then later on Sio Bibble asking "where are the Chancellor's ambassadors ?" :)

princethomas
06-09-2005, 08:09 AM
Yeah, there is. Obi's statements indicate that there is a specific "crusade" that Anakin followed Obi out to take part in, like a Clone War perhaps. What you're suggesting is that the statement is merely a generic reference to the Jedi Charter of providing peace and justice. I don't believe for a second that Owen would be grumpy about such a thing. Instead, Owen would look at history to see a young Anakin hook up with a "wizard" and follow him into a battle which eventually turns him into the uber-bad guy of the galaxy. This would prompt Owen's reluctance to hand Luke over to Old Ben for fear that Luke would repeat the sins of the father, which just so happens to be what the story is about.


No, it doesnt indicate a specific crusade. It is completely believable that Owen looks at Anakin's leaving as a child to go off and become a guardian of peace and justice as a crusade. It is certainly believable that he'd be grumpy about that. You know that Obi and Owen probably talk after he drops off Luke, thats probably when he gets real grumpy about it.

Heres kind of a side question. Do you think Owen knows that Anakin turns to Darth Vader. You said Owen sees that Anakin turns becomes Vader. I dont think he knows that. I was going to start a thread once about how many people actually know Anakin is Vader. My guess is that it is just Yoda and Obi and possibly Bail Antillies. It wouldnt make any sense to tell anyone else. I wouldnt think.


Also. what I said about expectations. Of course people were going to make their own connections and visions about it. I did too. But I think a lot of people are just having trouble reconciling the PT with what they always assumed the PT would be and not with the actual onscreen events of the OT.

You might as well go ahead and make that thread about going through the OT and picking out what doesnt work.

stillakid
06-09-2005, 11:02 AM
No, it doesnt indicate a specific crusade. It is completely believable that Owen looks at Anakin's leaving as a child to go off and become a guardian of peace and justice as a crusade. It is certainly believable that he'd be grumpy about that. You know that Obi and Owen probably talk after he drops off Luke, thats probably when he gets real grumpy about it.

Heres kind of a side question. Do you think Owen knows that Anakin turns to Darth Vader. You said Owen sees that Anakin turns becomes Vader. I dont think he knows that. I was going to start a thread once about how many people actually know Anakin is Vader. My guess is that it is just Yoda and Obi and possibly Bail Antillies. It wouldnt make any sense to tell anyone else. I wouldnt think.
Ah, I think I see your the problem. OF COURSE Owen knows who Vader is. I never dreamed in a million years that anyone would ever question that. It's SO obvious....but apparently, it isn't. :sur:

So anyway, with that in mind, Owen's entire attitude in ANH revolves around this knowledge of what happened to Anakin. I mean, look at it this way...if Anakin had gone on to become a great leader instead of a vile nefarious madman, do you think that Owen would be so concerned about keeping Luke on the farm? Probably not. Instead, Owen wouldn't be afraid to tell Luke about all the great things that his father did and Luke would be inspired to follow in his positive footsteps.

But that's not what happened, is it? Anakin went down the wrong path, the truth was hidden from Luke, and Owen tried his darndest to keep Luke safe.

If you don't believe any of that, recheck your copy of ANH and take an extra look at the burning homestead shot. You'll see at least one charred smoking body laying there. You'll also notice that he's got a gun. Owen obviously assumed that the Empire "discovered" LUKE and wanted to fight them off before Vader got his hands on the boy. Not likely he'd fight so vehemently just to keep some new droids safe.



Also. what I said about expectations. Of course people were going to make their own connections and visions about it. I did too. But I think a lot of people are just having trouble reconciling the PT with what they always assumed the PT would be and not with the actual onscreen events of the OT.
Making assumptions about what the PT would be based on what the OT suggested it would be is entirely justified. When they didn't match, naturally there was a problem reconciling them because it isn't possible. This has nothing to do with what I or anyone else hoped would be there. It has to do with what the OT established would be there. :)




You might as well go ahead and make that thread about going through the OT and picking out what doesnt work.
That's a lot of work. :)

CaptainSolo1138
06-09-2005, 11:37 AM
You'll see at least one charred smoking body laying there. You'll also notice that he's got a gun.
Do you have a pic to provide? I've never noticed this before.

princethomas
06-09-2005, 07:09 PM
[QUOTE=stillakid]



Making assumptions about what the PT would be based on what the OT suggested it would be is entirely justified. When they didn't match, naturally there was a problem reconciling them because it isn't possible. This has nothing to do with what I or anyone else hoped would be there. It has to do with what the OT established would be there. :)

QUOTE]

Yes it is entirely justified. But that didnt mean your assumptions were the only ones possible. And when the PT didnt match your assumptions, you think there is a problem. But if you go back and watch it line for line from a fresh perspective, you will find that there are very few if any contradictions to what is actually on screen. Your assumptions are not the only ones that would work.


I need more evidence about Owen knowing that Anakin turns to Vader because what you said makes no sense. So he had a blaster. You would too if troops were trying to burn your house down. Regardless of the reason.

stillakid
06-10-2005, 12:40 AM
QUOTE=stillakid]
Making assumptions about what the PT would be based on what the OT suggested it would be is entirely justified. When they didn't match, naturally there was a problem reconciling them because it isn't possible. This has nothing to do with what I or anyone else hoped would be there. It has to do with what the OT established would be there. :)




Yes it is entirely justified. But that didnt mean your assumptions were the only ones possible. And when the PT didnt match your assumptions, you think there is a problem. But if you go back and watch it line for line from a fresh perspective, you will find that there are very few if any contradictions to what is actually on screen. Your assumptions are not the only ones that would work.
How many different ways do I have to say the same thing. These aren't MY assumptions. These are cut and dried story elements established by the original films. You're assuming that EVERYTHING is open for interpretation by everybody with a movie ticket in their hands.



I need more evidence about Owen knowing that Anakin turns to Vader because what you said makes no sense. So he had a blaster. You would too if troops were trying to burn your house down. Regardless of the reason.
First of all,



OWEN
That's what I'm afraid of.

should be more than enough. What do you want, George to ram it down our throats like it's a Joel Schumaker film?

As far as the firefight goes, what exactly do you think went down there while Luke was away? Do you think that the Stormtroopers drove up to the farm with guns ablazin'? Their mission was to find the droids, not destroy everything in their path before finding them.

2-1B
06-10-2005, 02:13 AM
So anyway, with that in mind, Owen's entire attitude in ANH revolves around this knowledge of what happened to Anakin. I mean, look at it this way...if Anakin had gone on to become a great leader instead of a vile nefarious madman, do you think that Owen would be so concerned about keeping Luke on the farm? Probably not. Instead, Owen wouldn't be afraid to tell Luke about all the great things that his father did and Luke would be inspired to follow in his positive footsteps.

I agree that Owen knows, or he at least knows SOMETHING. Maybe he doesn't know the full extent, that the man in the black pajamas is really Anakin but he has to know something about Ani's fall from grace.

However, I'd be curious to hear JT's opinion on this since he cited the ANH Script as firmly having Anakin "dead." Was that in this thread ? I think it was a few pages back . . . :)

princethomas
06-10-2005, 08:05 AM
Yes they are assumptions. There is nothing cut and dry about the OT that doesnt still hold up in light of the new movies. The closest thing to a problem is Leia's mother memories. But thats really no problem either.

As for Owen. I always assumed he knew Anakin turned to Vader too. I always thought that. But I was thinking about it recently. It would be utterly stupid to for Obi Wan to tell him what happened. Furthermore. It seems unlikely that Owen would even know there was a Darth Vader. Unless Obi told him in case a crazy black armored guy comes sniffing around Shmi's grave, not to be surprised. But you know where thats going to lead us.

After thinking about it, it just doesnt seem likely that Obi would tell the Lars about what happened to Anakin, and there is NOTHING in A New Hope that Contradicts that. If Owen knows that Anakin left the planet in search of some kind of adventure and then was killed in the Clone War, then he would say "Thats what Im afraid of" when his wife suggests that their nephew is a lot like his Father.

Im not here trying to prove that they didnt know. Its just a new thought I had and its seems to fit. I dont really see why anyone would know except Yoda Obi Palpatine probably Bail Organa and some clone troopers. :)

-T

stillakid
06-10-2005, 10:15 AM
Yes they are assumptions. There is nothing cut and dry about the OT that doesnt still hold up in light of the new movies. The closest thing to a problem is Leia's mother memories. But thats really no problem either.

As for Owen. I always assumed he knew Anakin turned to Vader too. I always thought that. But I was thinking about it recently. It would be utterly stupid to for Obi Wan to tell him what happened. Furthermore. It seems unlikely that Owen would even know there was a Darth Vader. Unless Obi told him in case a crazy black armored guy comes sniffing around Shmi's grave, not to be surprised. But you know where thats going to lead us.

After thinking about it, it just doesnt seem likely that Obi would tell the Lars about what happened to Anakin, and there is NOTHING in A New Hope that Contradicts that. If Owen knows that Anakin left the planet in search of some kind of adventure and then was killed in the Clone War, then he would say "Thats what Im afraid of" when his wife suggests that their nephew is a lot like his Father.

Im not here trying to prove that they didnt know. Its just a new thought I had and its seems to fit. I dont really see why anyone would know except Yoda Obi Palpatine probably Bail Organa and some clone troopers. :)

-T

Well, since you're well entrenched in the "IF" game, I suppose everything is open for discussion then. :) I've been thinking lately too that Princess Leia is really a guy in drag (played by a woman, of course). There is nothing in the saga to contradict that either, so my interpretation is 100% valid. Right?

princethomas
06-10-2005, 06:38 PM
Thats cute except for that its stupid. Theres no reason to think shes a guy in drag. There is plenty of reason to think that Obi-wan would not want to tell anyone, including Owen, exactly what happened to Anakin.

I knew youd cop out when I asked for more evidence.

I am open to all suggestions. I believe the prequels work right along with the OT because I acknowledge that anything is possible as long as it fits within whats not on screen. I dont hold the PT accountable for stuff in the Novelizations or Comic Books or just what I decided was true because I wanted it to be. You talk and talk and talk about differents lines and interpretations, but you dont have any real proof. The truth is, it could go either way. There is nothing contradict either belief. That Owen does know or that he doesnt. Either is possible. But you refuse to acknowledge that, and thats pretty annoying.

JediTricks
06-10-2005, 09:33 PM
Oh, okay, maybe that's why Mace honors the request from Palpatine in AOTC that Kenobi guard Amidala ? :)

What about Valorum "secretly dispatching" 2 Jedi Knights in TPM, and then later on Sio Bibble asking "where are the Chancellor's ambassadors ?" :)Like putting Anakin on the council, these are all requests, not orders. They respect these request, but I do not know of any evidence which suggests they are dutybound to follow them.



Ah, I think I see your the problem. OF COURSE Owen knows who Vader is. I never dreamed in a million years that anyone would ever question that. It's SO obvious....but apparently, it isn't. :sur:

So anyway, with that in mind, Owen's entire attitude in ANH revolves around this knowledge of what happened to Anakin. I mean, look at it this way...if Anakin had gone on to become a great leader instead of a vile nefarious madman, do you think that Owen would be so concerned about keeping Luke on the farm? Probably not. Instead, Owen wouldn't be afraid to tell Luke about all the great things that his father did and Luke would be inspired to follow in his positive footsteps.

But that's not what happened, is it? Anakin went down the wrong path, the truth was hidden from Luke, and Owen tried his darndest to keep Luke safe. Owen might believe Anakin to be dead, negating this whole issue.


If you don't believe any of that, recheck your copy of ANH and take an extra look at the burning homestead shot. You'll see at least one charred smoking body laying there. You'll also notice that he's got a gun. Owen obviously assumed that the Empire "discovered" LUKEand wanted to fight them off before Vader got his hands on the boy. Not likely he'd fight so vehemently just to keep some new droids safe. 1) I've never seen a gun in that corpse's hand. 2) Owen didn't "obviously" assume anything, we have no idea what went on there, only that the Stormtroopers killed Jawas looking for the droids and then went to the Lars homestead and killed the people there as well.


should be more than enough. What do you want, George to ram it down our throats like it's a Joel Schumaker film? No Stilla, it's not enough, not by a long stretch, you are making a leap of logic assuming that this absolutely MUST mean that Owen knows Anakin is Vader, it does nothing of the sort, it *may* mean that or it *may* mean that Owen believes Anakin to have been killed by Darth Vader the way Obi-Wan says in the film.


As far as the firefight goes, what exactly do you think went down there while Luke was away? Do you think that the Stormtroopers drove up to the farm with guns ablazin'? Their mission was to find the droids, not destroy everything in their path before finding them. Then why destroy defenseless Jawas? Because they were covering their tracks, wiping out every link on their journey to finding the droids, the Jawas lead the sandtroopers to the Lars homestead so the troopers killed the Jawas and burned their vehicle, the Lars homestead lead the troopers to Luke who was off with the droids so the troopers killed the Lars family and burned their home - there isn't enough evidence to suggest more motivation than that, gun or no gun.


By the way, I just checked the DVD, there's nothing recognizable in the hands of either skeleton in either the long shot or the close-up. It's not even in the screenplay I have here.

2-1B
06-11-2005, 01:16 AM
I never noticed a weapon in the carnage of the homestead either.

JT, do you have proof that the events in TPM I mentioned were mere requests by Valorum and not "orders" ? :)

JediTricks
06-11-2005, 03:56 AM
Only in EU apparently, I remember it from somewhere but I can't find it in the canon. Do you have proof they are orders? We know that Valorum secretly dispatched the Jedi, that the Jedi are acting as his ambassadors, but that's all, we don't know the nature of their relationship.

stillakid
06-11-2005, 05:43 AM
Thats cute except for that its stupid. Theres no reason to think shes a guy in drag. There is plenty of reason to think that Obi-wan would not want to tell anyone, including Owen, exactly what happened to Anakin.
My point with that stupidness was that you are implying that every single word is open for interpretation. By your dismissing my interpretation above, you've negated your assertion and agreed with me that there are indeed absolutes in regard to an author's intentions.


I knew youd cop out when I asked for more evidence. :confused: Who copped out? What else do you want? You have everything you need, you're just refusing to acknowledge it.


I am open to all suggestions. I believe the prequels work right along with the OT because I acknowledge that anything is possible as long as it fits within whats not on screen. I dont hold the PT accountable for stuff in the Novelizations or Comic Books or just what I decided was true because I wanted it to be. You talk and talk and talk about differents lines and interpretations, but you dont have any real proof. The truth is, it could go either way. There is nothing contradict either belief. That Owen does know or that he doesnt. Either is possible. But you refuse to acknowledge that, and thats pretty annoying.
Okay, how 'bout this. It's possible, but VERY unlikely. Feel better? :)

See, in Lucas's black and white OT world, characters didn't say things all willy nilly in a Prequel-like attempt to be subtle and deep. So when we first meet Owen in 1977 and he says, "That's what I'm afraid of," we have absolutely no clue what he's getting at. Then when Old Ben tells Luke (and us) his rendition of what happened to Luke's father, we (incorrectly) surmise that Owen didn't want Luke to get killed senselessly in a war.

Ah, but it turns out to be slightly more complicated than that as we find out two episodes later that Anakin is kinda sorta still kicking around, only he is really bad. Now with this new knowledge, we look backwards to see that Obi Wan took baby Luke to Owen and MOST LIKELY explained what the circumstances were. MOST LIKELY this is why Owen so vehemently tried to shield Luke from the truth about his father ("He knew my father?"..."I told you to forget it."). MOST LIKELY this is why Owen said, "That's what I'm afraid of." It wasn't that he was so afraid that Luke would die in battle...it was that he knew that Vader might get his hands on the boy and turn him into a bad guy too. MOST LIKELY Obi Wan warned Owen that the Empire might track the kid down one day and attempt to take him away, which is why MOST LIKELY Owen made the attempt to fight the Stormtroopers off which is why his burning corpse is laying face down as he was exiting the homestead...he wasn't lying with his head facing the door, it was facing away, toward where the Stormtroopers would have been shooting from. And I am looking for my old blownup screencapture that (I believe, now I'm not so sure anymore :nerv: ) shows Owen's charred corpse holding a pistol.


So, we can make sh** up all day long that MIGHT have been the case, but we could literally play that game til the cows come home. Without Lucas, Huyck, or Katz sitting here to say "Yea" or "Nay," we have to look at what is MOST LIKELY and logically back it up in order to confidently dismiss any other alternatives. And what is MOST LIKELY in this case is that Owen wasn't an imbecile and knew exactly what was going on every step of the way. Any other answer would be a massive waste of story time. Owen saying "That's what I'm afraid of" is classic foreshadowing...it's done in a way that you don't even realize that that's what it was until the surprise has been sprung! Only then do you go back and have that "A-ha!" moment. Well, at least you should have. Obviously, you didn't. :ermm:

VaderhitsJarjar
06-11-2005, 11:52 AM
I just watched the scene frame by frame and zoomed - did not see a gun.
though I have heard this rumor before and I think there was a pic posted of the props and a blaster was in the scene - but it was never in the film.
Plus it is not in screenplay.

Maybe it was an idea at some point and scrapped due to time and money.

If Owen knows of Vader then he probably was told that vader killed Shimi's son.
Regardless - he was given the responsibility to care for Luke and keep him alive.

I dont' believe in all the hype that Owen wasnt happy with Ben - It was all apart of the plan to keep Luke from finding a Jedi and wanting to know more about the war. Owen isnt stupid - Lukes friends had already left for the stars.

Besides someone had to help with the moisture harvest.

princethomas
06-11-2005, 03:56 PM
Its not unlikely. You did cop out. You just said the same thing over again. Even IF Owen did have a gun. It doesnt prove he knew of Darth Vader. The point is, theres nothing to disprove either theory, that he did know or that he didnt. He absolutly would say "thats what Im afraid of" if he thought Anakin ran off to become a Jedi and then was killed by the emporer. He would say that and "classic foreshadowing" would still apply.

The point is that it could be either way. Thats obvious and I think everyone agrees with that. So then we have to decide if Obi-Wan would tell Owen the whole truth, and I dont think he would. It would be stupid to tell him. I doubt Owen even knows there is a Darth Vader. All Obi-Wan needs to tell him was that this is Anakin's son. His Father and Mother were killed by the Emporer, and its important that we hide him way out here from The Emporer because he has Jedi Powers. Thats all. Thats certainly all Id tell him. Any more info would just be dangerous.

2-1B
06-12-2005, 01:38 AM
JT, based on what I see in these movies, I believe the Jedi CHOOSE to serve the Senate. lol

stillakid
06-12-2005, 03:01 PM
I just watched the scene frame by frame and zoomed - did not see a gun.
I did another frame capture and this time I didn't see it. :confused: I believe my memory is playing tricks on me. :crazed: I would swear that I've seen that image before, of the body closest to camera with a pistol. I'll have to dig further into the archives...

But thanks for checking as well, VaderhitsJarJar. :)





Its not unlikely. You did cop out. You just said the same thing over again. Even IF Owen did have a gun. It doesnt prove he knew of Darth Vader. The point is, theres nothing to disprove either theory, that he did know or that he didnt. He absolutly would say "thats what Im afraid of" if he thought Anakin ran off to become a Jedi and then was killed by the emporer. He would say that and "classic foreshadowing" would still apply.

The point is that it could be either way. Thats obvious and I think everyone agrees with that. So then we have to decide if Obi-Wan would tell Owen the whole truth, and I dont think he would. It would be stupid to tell him. I doubt Owen even knows there is a Darth Vader. All Obi-Wan needs to tell him was that this is Anakin's son. His Father and Mother were killed by the Emporer, and its important that we hide him way out here from The Emporer because he has Jedi Powers. Thats all. Thats certainly all Id tell him. Any more info would just be dangerous.
To begin, no, again no, I didn't cop out. No amount of your repeating that will ever make it true. You just don't want to accept proof at this point.

But more importantly, being the fair and optimistic fellow that I am, I have taken the time to more carefully reexamine this entire question. The problem is, I keep ending up in the same place. :(

What is the phrase? ... tilting at windmills? See, you coming up with and giving credence to an unlimited number of possible alternate scenarios reminds me of that scene in TIN CUP (Kevin Costner):



TIN CUP
You ever shoot par with a 7 iron?

SIMMS
It never occurred to me to try.

When the most obvious possible meaning of a scene rears its ugly head and practically throws itself upon the collective lap of the audience, why go looking for something else when that which is so obvious works so well?

Devo
06-12-2005, 04:24 PM
When you think about it objectively Obi Wan is being very underhanded and manipulative in ANH, first of all he paints a picture in Lukes mind of a heroic father being betrayed by the evil Darth Vader giving Luke someone to aspire


Obi-wan: Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father ... He was the best starpilot in the galaxy and a cunning warrior ... and he was a good friend, which reminds me. I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-wan on some damn fool idealisitic crusade like your father did.

Obi-wan: an elegant weapon of a more civilized age.

Obi-wan: a young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. And now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force

to on one hand and a target for vengeance on the other and to facilitate this end (the death of Darth )he hands him his fathers lightsaber.



Obi-wan:I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough

When one really analyses this in the context of the prequel trilogy your forced to conclude that Obi Wan is twisting the truth in ways that would make a sith proud as at no time in the ROTS does Anakin say this nor would Obi Wan have been privy to such an exchange if it had occured(to those who would use the excuse that it happened off screen well ..... Obi only finds out Padmes pregnant with Ani's baby just before he heads off to confront him on Mustafar so please tell me when he fitted in this conversation I certainly dont recall hearing it), besides which Darth doesn't even know he has a living heir untill he encounters Luke in the death star trench he thought he'd died with his mother.

Just some musings I thought I'd share

princethomas
06-12-2005, 04:32 PM
Dude, the point is that I dont agree that its the most obvious meaning. And since what we see onscreen doesnt prevent other meanings, then it is fair to look at it from other perspectives. As I said, I always thought that Owen knew the whole truth too. But now that I have seen the prequels, I dont think its logical that Obi would tell Owen the whole truth. That would be stupid, and since the OT doesnt indicate that Owen knows the whole truth, then perception can be changed.

So I ll make this easier for you. I think that Owen would have the same reactions if he just thought Anakin was dead.

and

I think Obi would probably not want to devulge too much to Owen, for security reasons.

And once again. you still have offered no evidence as to why its obvious that Owen knows the whole truth. What is obvious is that you have seen something a certain way for your whole life and are unwilling to see it any other way.

Now Ill give the obligatory :) which apparently means you can be obnoxious without being called out about it.

Devo
06-12-2005, 05:11 PM
Now Ill give the obligatory :) which apparently means you can be obnoxious without being called out about it.

lol a great observation

stillakid
06-12-2005, 08:08 PM
Dude, the point is that I dont agree that its the most obvious meaning. And since what we see onscreen doesnt prevent other meanings, then it is fair to look at it from other perspectives.
Why don't you think it's the most obvious meaning? Perhaps YOU grew up thinking one thing and refuse to consider other possibilities? I don't know, I'm just asking...


As I said, I always thought that Owen knew the whole truth too. But now that I have seen the prequels, I dont think its logical that Obi would tell Owen the whole truth. That would be stupid,
You keep saying that, but don't say why. Why would it be stupid? On the contrary, it would be incredibly wise. What if anything ever happened to Obi Wan out there on the Dune Sea? Then what? Leave Owen hanging out there with a Midichlorian Homing Beacon under his nose?

So why...why would it be stupid to tell Owen that Anakin is Darth Vader?





I think Obi would probably not want to devulge too much to Owen, for security reasons.
What, you think Owen would turn the kid in for some kind of reward or something? :confused: What "security" reasons? Who is Obi trying to fool out there in the middle of nowhere?


And once again. you still have offered no evidence as to why its obvious that Owen knows the whole truth.
I've offered logical arguments why he would. I'll be awaiting responses to the questions above regarding the evidence that you have as to why it's obvious that Owen doesn't know the truth. :)


What is obvious is that you have seen something a certain way for your whole life and are unwilling to see it any other way.I saw it that way because it was the most logical...and remains to be.


Now Ill give the obligatory :) which apparently means you can be obnoxious without being called out about it.
Are you calling me names? Argue the topic and keep it at that. Thanks.


Oh.... :)

:rolleyes:

princethomas
06-12-2005, 10:04 PM
Ok, I ll see what I can do. First of all, Luke is not a Midi-Chlorian Beacon. I think you overestimate the Jedi/Sith powers to sense things. The emporer couldnt sense Luke on his way to Endor, and he was right outside the Window. Vader could, but Vader was touching Leia and couldnt sense her. I dont see what it could possibly help to tell Owen. Owen barely knows about the Jedi, now you think Obi is going to sit him down and tell him all about the Sith and everything else? To what end? Is that knowledge going to help him raise or protect Luke? No. Owen knows that Anakin was powerful. He certainly will tell Owen that it is important that Luke stays way out here because the Emporer cant find out about his existence. I get that its dangerous. But the knowledge that Anakin didnt just die, but turned into this crazy bad guy doesnt help Owen at all. Its just going screw the situation up more. Its obvious that Obi doesnt want Luke to know the Truth about his Father. Maybe he doesnt want Owen to freak out and tell luke. He certainly doesnt want Owen interjecting any of his sit-your-hands not get involved ideas into the boy.

Im not saying that he definitly doesnt know. Im just saying that Its seems like Obi would tell Owen only what he needed to know, and nothing in the movie discredits that.



Now, you basically just took what I said and tried to turn it around on me. I said you just figured it one way and refused to change. Then you tried to tell me I did that. Even though I specifically said that I have always assumed that Owen did know all. Just that I can adapt.

Futhermore. Im under the impression that when Star Wars was written and release in 1977, Lucas had not yet decided that Vader was infact Luke's father. I dont know if that is true or not. If it is, you certainly cant try to tell me that anything in the movie indicates that Owen knows.

Futherfurthermore, I went looking around a bit and found that in something called "Fall of the Jedi pt 1." it explains that Obi-Wan told Owen and Beru when he brought Luke that both of his parents were killed. Now I dont know if thats a book or comic or whatever. And to me it doesnt mean squat if its not in the films, but I know it does to you. You have centered all of your arguments at least in part around that ROTJ novelization of Obi-wan and Owen being brothers. So if that is the case, then certainly you'll have to consider that.


Lastly, I wasnt, and am not, trying to be a jerk. But you deserved that crack about the :) You tear into everything on every forum, I have read again and again, and you never say "thats interesting or hmm I ll think about that" or anything other than Im right and your wrong. And you offer up subjective things as "Factual Evidence" Like Owen says "thats what Im afraid of" so that means he clearly knows that Anakin didnt just die but became the Dark Overlord of the Universe. Or "some damned fool idealistic crusade" which obviously means Obi is talking about some specific crusade at some specific place in time.

Im sorry, I dont consider myself an expert at StarWars. Im just a fan who comes here to talk about something I really like. Its supposed to be fun. And the fact is, these stories werent all written together, they are all very vague. They changed from movie to movie. And its ridiculous to think there is any one definitive answer to any of these questions.

Sorry again. Maybe Im being a Jerk. but I dont think so. :)
-T

JediTricks
06-12-2005, 11:37 PM
Alright, that's enough of the personal stuff, if you want to have an argument about personality conflicts, take it to PM or email, this is a discussion thread about the topic, not the forumites. No more of the personal stuff at all, the end, go back to discussing the thread's original topic.

JediTricks
06-12-2005, 11:56 PM
JT, based on what I see in these movies, I believe the Jedi CHOOSE to serve the Senate. lolI look at it this way, between North Korea and England, the USA's allegiance is to England and not North Korea, but that doesn't mean the USA is subserviant to England in any way, just that the USA is loyal to its ally rather than another party - especially if that party is showing signs of being evil.



But thanks for checking as well, VaderhitsJarJar. :) Gee Stilla, you're welcome. ...oh, that's right, you didn't thank me even though I confirmed that it's not there 2 days beforehand. :p



When one really analyses this in the context of the prequel trilogy your forced to conclude that Obi Wan is twisting the truth in ways that would make a sith proud as at no time in the ROTS does Anakin say this nor would Obi Wan have been privy to such an exchange if it had occured However, when the ANH line was written, there was no ROTS and no intention of ever being an Episode 3 (http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=28846), so the failure here would be on ROTS in not to adhering to and building from what was set down before it in the OT... providing one sees it as a failure at all rather than interpretation, of course.



Dude, the point is that I dont agree that its the most obvious meaning. I absolutely agree with you PT... hmm, never thought I'd say that with those initials. ;) Seriously though, the idea of what's "most obvious" in this specific case is hardly objectively-derived, it's totally subjective inferrence - maybe it's there and maybe it's not, there's no real solid evidence to say what Owen's subtext meant, and that's assuming there was any meaning beyond what we're given in ANH at all.


As I said, I always thought that Owen knew the whole truth too. But now that I have seen the prequels, I dont think its logical that Obi would tell Owen the whole truth. For me, I *never* thought Owen knew that Anakin became Darth Vader, and I'm talking about since before the SEs were released so certainly before any prequel rumblings - that says to me that either I missed some obvious clues that tipped the scale against what I thought (which I absolutely don't buy) or that someone with a different perspective is reading something into it that is absolutely open to interpretation (which would make it subjective and therefore only the "most likely" option to the subject who inferred it).



So why...why would it be stupid to tell Owen that Anakin is Darth Vader? Because if Obi-Wan doesn't know Owen very well (brothers or not, they haven't known each other very long) he wouldn't know how Owen would react to the news that he had a chess piece that could be put into play to manipulate Vader and Palpatine since Obi-Wan didn't know if Owen would use that chess piece for personal gain or whatever. It's not totally far-fetched that the wizardly Obi-Wan did tell Owen and Beru about that aspect, but it's not as likely in my mind as not telling them.


What, you think Owen would turn the kid in for some kind of reward or something? That is not impossible, not much less likely than Obi-Wan absolutely telling Owen about Vader.



Futherfurthermore, I went looking around a bit and found that in something called "Fall of the Jedi pt 1." it explains that... I am pretty sure that "Fall of the Jedi" is a piece of fanfic and as such not a viable Star Wars source.

princethomas
06-13-2005, 08:01 AM
Jedi tricks. Thanks on the Fall of the Jedi bit. I hadnt really heard of it. So I figured it might not be a particularly viable source.

stillakid
06-13-2005, 09:21 AM
Ok, I ll see what I can do. First of all, Luke is not a Midi-Chlorian Beacon. I think you overestimate the Jedi/Sith powers to sense things.
No, I didn't mean that the bad guys would be able to sense Luke from anywhere. I have some other comments elsewhere describing that that in most cases, Jedi can't really sense a "disturbance" in the Force from any significant distance unless it's really big, like say, the destruction of a planet. So in terms of Luke, the boy hypothetically (in 1977 anyway) had zero Force ability therefore any latent Force use he did exhibit wouldn't amount to much more than a tiny ripple in the energy field.



But the knowledge that Anakin didnt just die, but turned into this crazy bad guy doesnt help Owen at all. Its just going screw the situation up more. Its obvious that Obi doesnt want Luke to know the Truth about his Father. Maybe he doesnt want Owen to freak out and tell luke. He certainly doesnt want Owen interjecting any of his sit-your-hands not get involved ideas into the boy.

So your reasoning is that Owen might tell Luke? :confused:


Im not saying that he definitly doesnt know. Im just saying that Its seems like Obi would tell Owen only what he needed to know, and nothing in the movie discredits that.
And what he needed to know was the truth so that Owen understood the importance of his "mission" of protecting Luke. Which is why Owen wanted the droid's memories erased as soon as he realized there might be a link between them and Old Ben and why he said, "That's what I'm afraid of."




Futhermore. Im under the impression that when Star Wars was written and release in 1977, Lucas had not yet decided that Vader was infact Luke's father. I dont know if that is true or not. If it is, you certainly cant try to tell me that anything in the movie indicates that Owen knows.
If we are going to bring George into it (and there's no reason we shouldn't...and I did prior to this), given his penchant for heavy-handed non-subtle writing, it stands to reason that he gave Owen that line ("That's what I'm afraid of") as a somewhat blunt attempt at foreshadowing something to come. Like you, I have no confirmation as to when the "Vader/father" link was made in Lucas's mind, but given the outline (sparse as it was) that he did have regarding the entire saga, I have a very hard time believing that he went into this not knowing where it would lead.


Futherfurthermore, I went looking around a bit and found that in something called "Fall of the Jedi pt 1." it explains that Obi-Wan told Owen and Beru when he brought Luke that both of his parents were killed. Now I dont know if thats a book or comic or whatever. And to me it doesnt mean squat if its not in the films, but I know it does to you. You have centered all of your arguments at least in part around that ROTJ novelization of Obi-wan and Owen being brothers. So if that is the case, then certainly you'll have to consider that.
Boy, you don't pay attention. I've never done that, "centered all my arguments around the ROTJ novelization." The only time I do that is specifically when discussing the relationship as described in the Prequels. I've never based any other argument on that being a fact. If you're going to accuse me of something, please make it accurate and relevant.

So no, I don't put any credence into EU involvement in onscreen discussions unless the discussion is specifically about the difference in either.



Lastly, I wasnt, and am not, trying to be a jerk. But you deserved that crack about the :) You tear into everything on every forum,
That's categorically untrue and I await your retraction on that assertion. If enough people repeat a lie like that, in time, everyone will start to believe it and that is unfair to me.


I have read again and again, and you never say "thats interesting or hmm I ll think about that" or anything other than Im right and your wrong.
Same thing again. That's absolutely false. You're seeing only what you want to see and nothing more. Do more research in the archives before making that kind of accusation please.


And you offer up subjective things as "Factual Evidence" Like Owen says "thats what Im afraid of" so that means he clearly knows that Anakin didnt just die but became the Dark Overlord of the Universe. Or "some damned fool idealistic crusade" which obviously means Obi is talking about some specific crusade at some specific place in time.
Without GL here to speak with us, I take the most obvious conclusion and assume it to be correct when it is backed by adequate evidence.


Im sorry, I dont consider myself an expert at StarWars. Im just a fan who comes here to talk about something I really like. Its supposed to be fun. And the fact is, these stories werent all written together, they are all very vague. They changed from movie to movie. And its ridiculous to think there is any one definitive answer to any of these questions.
Well, that's true. Lucas has altered the continuity on more than one occasion, from OT to PT. But that doesn't mean that the OT meanings have changed...or should even be considered to change...just because of a faulty element included into the Prequels. The OT films are the benchmark of established continuity. Anything that follows that contradicts them are fundamentally incorrect. Actually, more specifically, ANH is the benchmark. Had ESB contradicted ANH it would be in the same boat as the PT films.


Sorry again. Maybe Im being a Jerk. but I dont think so. :)
-T
Ditto. :)