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View Full Version : Hayden Christensen's performance really nailed all 3 acts, in my opinion.



2-1B
06-02-2005, 03:19 AM
One of the biggest reasons I loved Revenge of the Sith is Christensen's performance as Anakin Skywalker.

In Act 1 he comes across as a pretty cool hero as he and Obi-Wan make their rescue attempt aboard The Invisible Hand. I got to see all those attributes Obi-Wan described in A New Hope: he was the best starpilot in the galaxy and a cunning warrior. And he was a good friend. The elevator stuff was fantastic as was the battle vs. Dooku. When Ben goes flying and Anakin looks over to see his former Master (though still called Master as a sign of respect) it was pretty cool because I knew then that Dooku was about to get his. lol I liked that he refused to leave Obi-Wan, preferring to die on that ship instead of losing Kenobi. Basically, in the first part he is very heroic and I would want that guy on my side.

Act 2 comes along and I find myself feeling very sympathetic toward Anakin. The dream sequences were pretty well done and better than I expected since I heard about it via spoilers. Hayden seems to be able to play the different moods pretty well as he goes back and forth wrestling with all the questions about Padme and the baby, Jedi vs. Sith, etc. His exchange with Ben about having to spy on the Chancellor at the request of the Jedi was pretty convincing and it set up how he felt about Palpatine as a friend which would obviously add to his confusion later when he thinks about killing the Sith Lord. Since the first time I watched this movie, even though I knew how things would play out because of the OT, I still found myself feeling for the guy and "hoping" that he would not make the wrong decisions. One of my favorite scenes is the faceless exchange he shares with Padme across the buildings. The whole movie really hinges on that scene as he makes that decision to go to the Chancellor's office. Even after he helped to kill Master Windu I still felt bad for him because that was certainly not what he had in mind when he left the Council Chambers to go and check things out.

When Act 3 rolls around after that and he has now joined the Sith, I feel a disconnect from the character which is a good thing because I can't justify marching into the Temple and slaughtering people. The thing with the Sandpeople last time, well I was in a gray area on that one but this time Anakin has obviously gone too far. One of the reasons Anakin's Turn or Seduction works for me is that while he still seems to want the same things (to save Padme and to a lesser extent, the end of the War) he is now willing to use COMPLETELY opposite methods to gain those. And in the process he gets all twisted up and ruined.

How creepy is he when he runs to meet Padme on the Mustafar platform ? lol He's talking as if he's still Anakin, the nice guy who loves Padme but considering what he's done it's pretty bizarre. The way he rambles on about Empire, Ruling the Galaxy, shaping things the way they want them to be, etc, I almost want Brian Fantana from Anchorman to step in and say "hey Champ, why don't you take a couple plays off. Maybe don't talk so much." lol lol lol
Seriously though, as much as his intentions were good at the beginning I just have to shake my head at how he could end up in such a terrible place. Sure he was manipulated and sure he had good intentions but in the end I look at the character and think that he had the proper avenues to go - he just made the wrong choices. :(

In a movie filled with tons of special effects, chase scenes, cuts away to other storylines, I think it had to be pretty tough to take this iconic character and play him in a way so as to make his Fall "believable" but as far as I'm concerned he pulled it off very well.

This is one of the biggest reasons why I have enjoyed the prequels (for the most part). Even though I went into each movie knowing what would happen and how it would all end up in the end, I STILL rooted for the main characters to not find tragedy. :)

Elliejabbapop
06-02-2005, 06:21 AM
Bravo!!! Bravissimo!!!

JimJamBonds
06-02-2005, 09:17 AM
Here here Caeser! I thought Hayden did a great job, better then what he did in E II (not that I thought his performance there was poor or anything). I'm intereted in seeing what he was like in his various other rolls.

Jayspawn
06-02-2005, 09:53 AM
Well said Caesar. Hayden gave a great preformance! He was really into the role, made Star Wars his own (beside the fact they all work in front of blue and green screens). Fantastic job!

I saw Hayden on a few episodes of "Higher Ground" he was pretty good not playing Anakin or Darth of course. But I saw them prior to AOTC, and I bought it. He had my approval.

ronhudy
06-02-2005, 01:20 PM
I have a different opinion, but I can see where you're coming from, and you back yourself up very well. My problem with Anakin in Ep II and III wasn't Hayden as much as it was some of the dialogue and direction. But you make some good points, and I enjoyed reading your assessment of Anakin's actions vs. his desires...good post.

:)

trandoshan666
06-02-2005, 01:47 PM
I've seen ROTS four times and couldn't agree more. The force was STRONNNG with Hayden in this movie. Great analysis, BTW.

Devo
06-02-2005, 03:31 PM
I wish I felt the same way. But everything you describe simply does not make me react the same as it did you. Showing Vader as a child was the worst mistake of the saga in my opinion and it affected my perception of everything thereafter including the three Acts you mention.

As far as I'm concerned absolutely nothing worthwhile was achieved with Anakin in Episode I, he was utterly wasted. And what could they do with a child anyway? The result of this was that going into AOTC I didn't give a toss about Anakin. Worse still, coming out of AOTC I didn't give a toss about Anakin because of the way he was handled by Lucas...according to Rick McCallum in recent magazine interviews Anakin wasn't written to be likeable (and so people were misapplying criticism to Hayden Christensen, when it wasn't him it was the character)...but thats ridiculous. Who the hell thought it was a good idea, and good story telling, to make your tragic protagonist 'unlikeable'?? Well if that was their goal they achieved it however illadvised it was. So I went into ROTS 'not liking' Anakin.

The problem with being indifferent towards one of the main characters (and I know none of this applies to those of you giving ROTS and Hayden a full thumbs up) is that you really don't give a damn what happens to him. Therefore what is supposed to be tragic just ends up being a few sequences of events devoid of any emotional connection between film and viewer - exciting perhaps, but ultimately not what you were hoping for. I need to see the film again, but, for me, theres no escaping the poor writing decisions of TPM and AOTC which necessarily impact on ROTS.

By the way did anyone notice that Hayden sounds different in ROTS than he did in AOTC? I'm not trying to nitpick here, I'm not saying this as a criticism (yet), but the way he pronounces words is different. He sounds like Brad Pitt.

Elliejabbapop
06-02-2005, 03:58 PM
If you have to ***** around at least spare the sarcasm. Come on, Brad Pitt??????

Devo
06-02-2005, 04:09 PM
If you have to ***** around at least spare the sarcasm. Come on, Brad Pitt??????

Where did you think I was ***** around out of curiosity?

Yes he sounds like Brad Pitt at points in his pronunciation of words. Of course maybe I'm imagining it, I've only seen the film once, but he definitely sounds different, he was more consciously trying to mimic James Earl Jones in this film.

Elliejabbapop
06-02-2005, 04:19 PM
Where did you think I was ***** around out of curiosity?
Yes he sounds like Brad Pitt at points in his pronunciation of words.

Ta-Da :D


Of course maybe I'm imagining it

Good boy


He was more consciously trying to mimic James Earl Jones in this film.

lol lol lol I'd have my ears checked 'cause JEJ and Brad Pitt sound VERY different.

Devo
06-02-2005, 07:52 PM
lol lol lol I'd have my ears checked 'cause JEJ and Brad Pitt sound VERY different

You see you're making the jump into assuming that I think Hayden pulled off the James Earl Jones impression successfully. At present time yes I think he came off sounding more like Brad Pitt. You see the difference? Nowhere did I say Brad Pitt and Jej sound alike. Its not unheard of for one white male to sound like another white male; that you happen to disagree with my comparison doesn't justify the tone you use, particularly...


Good boy

...rather condescending.

Hellboy
06-02-2005, 09:34 PM
Very well said Caesar. Your feelings in regards to Hayden's performance are right on IMO and mirror my own. He made us care enough for the character of Anakin that it was hard to watch his manipulation and eventual downfall without hoping he would somehow avoid his destiny.

The relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan in the first act really showed the playful side of his character and a level of respect for his master we hadn't really seen up until that point. The scene where Anakin says goodbye to Obi-Wan as he leaves on his mission to apprehend General Grievous was especially sad. Its really the last time we see them together as friends and you can't help but wonder how much differently things would've turned out had Kenobi stayed at his apprentices' side.

Overall I felt Anakin's transistion was handled quite well. Some of the scenes you mentioned like Padme and Anakin's faceless exchange across the Coruscant skyline was a favorite of mine as well. It was a very powerful scene because you could see the toll Anakin's internal struggle was taking on him. At this point he was unsure of everything with the exception of his love for Padme and his fear of losing her. That fear coupled with the death of his mother and his inability to control her fate was enough motivation for Anakin to take a more aggressive position this time and Hayden conveyed Anakin's conflicting emotions to perfection.

By the time we reach Mustafar and Padme confronts Vader with the accusation that Obi-Wan made against him that he slaughtered Jedi, specifically Younglings, his denial is indeed chilling. He has convinced himself that an act as heinous as that was somehow justified in the name of the greater good. You really can see at that point as he lies to the woman he loves how delusional he's become and how the good man that was Anakin is truly gone.

Hayden should be proud of his work in this film. To me he and Ian McDiarmid stole the show. Thats not to say others weren't great like Ewan and Natalie but to me it was mostly Hayden's performance that elevated this film to the level of a Shakespearean tragedy and at times made it painful for a fan like myself to watch.

stillakid
06-03-2005, 12:26 AM
Naturally, I disagree.

But it isn't entirely Hayden's fault. Any actor would find it to be a nearly impossible task to create a cohesive character when the script he is given contradicts itself left and right. But this is where Hayden fails: it is his responsibility to read the script and discuss these character errors in pre-production with the Director.

This isn't to say that a better more seasoned actor might have brought a sense of believability to the character. But Hayden doesn't have the chops to find that character by himself, and with no help from this Director, the part was doomed from the start.

I got the sense much of the time that Hayden had no real idea how to play certain scenes. For instance, the much maligned "turning" scene when he goes to his knees to pledge his allegiance. It was just awful from start to finish...mostly because it wasn't written well, but also because Hayden appears to just "do it" after deciding that there will never be any true motivation so he might as well just do what he's told and collect the check later.

And need I bring up the "rapist leer" that he's getting pretty good at. :p When he should be playing like he is in genuine love with his girl, it comes off as sadistic instead, like he's stalking her instead of what it's supposed to be.

All in all, writing problems aside, I think that the biggest problem of the Prequels was the casting of both Anakins, Jake and Hayden. Both were atrocious and miscast terribly. I never once believed that Jake became Hayden later in life and nothing about Hayden even remotely smacked of Darth Vader.

Won-Dum Jedi
06-03-2005, 01:37 AM
I have agree with the majority here. I thought Hayden did a great job. I remember after seeing Clones my best friend was like "Man, that dude sucked!" I somewhat agreed only because of the dialogue and that a couple weeks before seeing it I had watched Life As a House with him and Kevin Kline and thought he was just playing the same character but just with a lightsaber and not having purple hair and a bunch of peircings in his face.

Then I saw Shattered Glass based on a journalist who instead of getting the truth for his stories was just making up stuff. After watching it I was like " Oh my God this guy can ACT." "He is going to be amazing in Episode III." And he was.

So like everyone else BRAVO, and keep up the good job.

Elliejabbapop
06-03-2005, 08:41 AM
You see you're making the jump into assuming that I think Hayden pulled off the James Earl Jones impression successfully. At present time yes I think he came off sounding more like Brad Pitt. You see the difference? Nowhere did I say Brad Pitt and Jej sound alike.


Study some grammar you must, young padawan :D A little confused you are.

Devo
06-03-2005, 09:47 AM
Study some grammar you must, young padawan :D A little confused you are.

I've noticed one sentence I wrote which had too many commas and another which perhaps had too few. Is this what lead to your interpretation that I think Jej and Brad Pitt sound alike? Apologies if my comma problem disturbs you. I'd like to study your grammar but so far in this thread you haven't strung together a sufficient amount of words for me to make a true assessment. oh and :D

Elliejabbapop
06-03-2005, 10:27 AM
Understand my sense of humour you must :-)

Come on Danny Boy, you've been a member since March 2003...... try.

I only write what I have to say aka I don't just blabber away (*hint*hint*hint*). Seriously, this thread should return to its topic so I think we children should return to our classes. If you have anything to say to me be my guest and click on the pm button.

Elliejabbapop
06-03-2005, 10:46 AM
Naturally, I disagree.

Ok, enough playing around with Devo. ;)
I wonder if you really believe everything you say. It seems like you have an urge to criticize everything and everyone you come in contact with and that "naturally" suggests that everything you say is ficticious and meant only to show-off, it has no truth at the heart of it.


But this is where Hayden fails: it is his responsibility to read the script and discuss these character errors in pre-production with the Director.

He tried doing that actually, but you all know Mr.L. ...... "My film, My ideas, I'll film it as I f***ing please" (remember the 60 Minutes interview?). Even Ewan couldn't "break" GL.


I got the sense much of the time that Hayden had no real idea how to play certain scenes. For instance, the much maligned "turning" scene when he goes to his knees to pledge his allegiance. It was just awful from start to finish...mostly because it wasn't written well, but also because Hayden appears to just "do it" after deciding that there will never be any true motivation so he might as well just do what he's told and collect the check later.

I loved that scene, Hayden's eyes were like a madman's, he was sort of "hypnotized" by the Devil (you all know who that is) himself.


And need I bring up the "rapist leer" that he's getting pretty good at. :p When he should be playing like he is in genuine love with his girl, it comes off as sadistic instead, like he's stalking her instead of what it's supposed to be.

I seriously doubt you've ever been in love.


even remotely smacked of Darth Vader.

That must be one of the stupidest things I've heard this year.

Devo
06-03-2005, 05:31 PM
Understand my sense of humour you must :-)

Come on Danny Boy, you've been a member since March 2003...... try.

I only write what I have to say aka I don't just blabber away (*hint*hint*hint*). Seriously, this thread should return to its topic so I think we children should return to our classes. If you have anything to say to me be my guest and click on the pm button.

I agree with Stillakid. Also refer to what I said before I entered into a to-and-fro off-topic "debate" with Elliejabbapop. That part at least was not 'blabber' *mutters angrily*

Extension of off-topic bit -

Elliejabbapop: "I have the high ground Devo, I'm ending this; I'm casting you in the role of 'fool who won't let it go' while I get to be the one to bring this thread back on topic. Don't do it Devo!!"

Devo: "You underestimate my power !!" Devo leaps majestically through the air, somersaulting over Elliejabbapop's head, to wield his own brand of humour

Elliejabbapop
06-04-2005, 07:57 AM
Extension of off-topic bit -

"fool who won't let it go"

No comment :p

stillakid
06-04-2005, 12:19 PM
Ok, enough playing around with Devo. ;)
I wonder if you really believe everything you say. It seems like you have an urge to criticize everything and everyone you come in contact with and that "naturally" suggests that everything you say is ficticious and meant only to show-off, it has no truth at the heart of it.
I'll admit, the "naturally" is a joke aimed at people like you who think that I just complain about everything. :) But if you were really paying attention, you'd notice that I don't. You see only what you want to see, which is why you probably like the Prequels.





I seriously doubt you've ever been in love.
So being stared at by a rapist is your idea of being in love? Your choice, but I've always preferred to approach love in a more caring manner. What Stalk-akin does is more akin to being maniacal in a Jerry Springer sort of way...which fits because Padme loves him back in a "I'm going to fix my man even if it kills me" sort of way.





That must be one of the stupidest things I've heard this year.
You don't get out much. But more importantly, all I was saying is that there is no way that this version of Hayden/Vader turns into the OT Vader. How you count that as being "stupid," much less the "stupidest thing" you've heard all year is probably the stupidest thing I've heard all year. :p

2-1B
06-05-2005, 12:31 AM
It's not a rapist leer and he certainly is not a rapist.

I wish I had Hayden's game, I'd be pulling all kinds of 'tang ! lol

Elliejabbapop
06-05-2005, 04:01 AM
I'll admit, the "naturally" is a joke aimed at people like you who think that I just complain about everything. :) But if you were really paying attention, you'd notice that I don't. You see only what you want to see, which is why you probably like the Prequels.





So being stared at by a rapist is your idea of being in love? Your choice, but I've always preferred to approach love in a more caring manner. What Stalk-akin does is more akin to being maniacal in a Jerry Springer sort of way...which fits because Padme loves him back in a "I'm going to fix my man even if it kills me" sort of way.





You don't get out much. But more importantly, all I was saying is that there is no way that this version of Hayden/Vader turns into the OT Vader. How you count that as being "stupid," much less the "stupidest thing" you've heard all year is probably the stupidest thing I've heard all year. :p

You're wrong, I'm perfectly able to spot all the flaws in the prequels but, unlike you, I'm not obsessed with them.
Anakin loves Padme with all his heart, when you think that he faces damnation because of this love. Your idea of "caring" seems to be a self-absorbed and egocentric "I know all about it" thing so I still seriously doubt that you've ever been in love. At what point exactly did you think he was a "rapist"? That word has no meaning in this context, it's just blabber, a girl I know actually met a rapist and I can assure you it wasn't pretty, so you should be more careful when you senslessly talk about experiences you know nothing about.
And finally, you're right I haven't got out much so far this year, some of us have to work for a living, so your assumptions sound VERY stupid, perhaps the "rapist" one was even worse. I never said it was the stupidest, I said "one of the stupidest", it's not the same thing my boy.

Devo
06-05-2005, 10:16 AM
No one is saying Anakin was a rapist in these films or even that it was being suggested in the films that he 'possibly' was that way inclined. However the looks he gives Padme in AOTC are no doubt 'freaky' for want of a better term - and hey we've already had the better term - 'rapist leer'. They don't suggest love to me either, they suggest 'I'm going to use you any way I want and whether you want it or not'. Now I realise thats not how it goes on to be. However the whole thing might be a bit more believable if not for that stare. Together with Anakin's confession that he massacred the sandpeople it pushes this particular love story into the realms of total nonsense and 'would never happen'. And the same stare is present at the end of Return of the Jedi. So now instead of an Anakin gazing with pride and fondness at his son we have an Anakin first looking oddly embarrassed for some reason and then quickly turning on the rapist leer - and padme is nowhere to be seen!! Whose it meant for this time, Leia?? Just totally inappropriate and out of place.

stillakid
06-05-2005, 10:33 AM
Roger that, Devo! :)


You're wrong, I'm perfectly able to spot all the flaws in the prequels but, unlike you, I'm not obsessed with them.
Hey, I'm not "obsessed." Just....interested. :D


Anakin loves Padme with all his heart,
Boy, if you think that the character that we see in the Prequels is "in love," then it's you who have a whacked definition of love and probably have never really been in true love. What Anakin is filled with isn't "love"...it's self absorbed selfish obsession. And, somebody pinch me for saying this....it actually works to help build Anakin's turn toward the darkside.

Here, we've got a little innocent kid who never gets out much and finally meets a girl who gives him the time of day. After a scant few misadventures "together," they split up for around 10 years. The kid hadn't even hit puberty yet but he began "thinking about her everyday." (AOTC) If that doesn't sound like obsession, unhealthy at that, I don't know what does. Then when she brushes him off (at least to his eyes), he turns on the rapist leer to a point that she even admonishes him about it: "Stop looking at me like that...it makes me uncomfortable." He "apologizes" but instead of appearing to be humbled, he continues to do it! :evil: Is that the "love" you're referring to?


so your assumptions sound VERY stupid, perhaps the "rapist" one was even worse. I never said it was the stupidest, I said "one of the stupidest", it's not the same thing my boy.
And I never said that he was a rapist...only that he had a rapist leer...it's not the same thing, my boy. :rolleyes: ALL of your conclusions are based around some sick version of "love" which you ironically pin on me. I know what real love is and it doesn't resemble what Anakin illustrated in any way at all. He was a sick self aborbed egocentric individual with a stalker mentality. When he didn't get his way with the career or love, he lashed out immediately like a prepubescent juvenile with a stunted emotional core might. And if we are to accept the story that George told us, this is the basis for Anakin to turn into Darth Vader.

Droid
06-05-2005, 12:01 PM
Anakin loves Padme with all his heart, when you think that he faces damnation because of this love.

The more I think about this the more I think having Luke and Leia's mother be such an important character was a big mistake. I really think the prequels should have been about Anakin's relationship with Obi-wan Kenobi, Owen, and the Emperor.

In Episode I he had no contact with Owen and a few brief scenes at best with Obi-wan and the Emperor. During the gap in between Episode I and II we are led to believe that Obi-wan and the Emperor had all kinds of contact with Anakin, by we don't get to see it onscreen.

By the time Episode II kicks in, we have one or two scenes (and about five minutes of Anakin's life) with Owen.

Obi-wan and Anakin are far from the friends we were led to believe they were by the original trilogy and are at each other's throats. But we really don't get too much of Anakin and Obi-wan's relationship in Episode II because Anakin spends the whole time with Padme and Obi-wan spends the whole time off on Kamino, neither of which had to be done to support we heard about in the original trilogy. We heard in the original trilogy how Obi-wan and Anakin were good friends, we heard nothing about how much Anakin loved Luke and Leia's mother and we heard nothing about Obi-wan's quest to find out who was trying to kill Luke and Leia's mother.

We have one scene in Episode II that shows how the Emperor and Anakin are close, but we are not led on screen to know why Anakin is close to the Emperor. And for those of you who have listened to the audio commentary and tracked the original scripts of both Episode I and II, Lucas never wrote a scene with Palpatine and Anakin in either film and added them as after thoughts. "Oh ya, I have to have a reason these two team up."

In Episdoe III, Obi-wan and Anakin are now supposedly good friends, but the transition from the bickering in Episode II until the "friendship" in Episode III happens, once again, offscreen. And then they are apart for most of the movie because Obi-wan goes off to fight Grievous. In one scene they are expressing their absolute admiration for one another. Then Anakin tells Palpatine he understands the Jedi all have to die and that Obi-wan is an enemy. Then he is ready to kill Obi-wan. It makes little sense. Anakin may resent the Jedi, but he tells Obi-wan how much he admires him, and I think we are supposed to believe he is sincere. Then Padme shows up, tells Anakin things Anakin KNOWS to be true (you've turned to the dark side and killed younglings) and now he is ready to kill Obi-wan? Why? I don't really know. To save Padme? That doesn’t really make sense.

There is quite a bit of Palpatine and Anakin in Episode III. And there is nothing with Anakin and Owen in Episode III.

I think the problem with Padme reallly is that Lucas tried to write "the greatest love story of all time", with every hint of Romeo and Juliet he could throw in. It would have been better to just offer to the audience that they loved each other, have them already be together or just have Anakin met a girl and they clicked, rather than spending all of Episode II trying to convince us that we were watching something truly special.

Anakin should have turned to the Dark Side because of a quest for power, not this “I might be able to save Padme from dying business”. If his love for Padme was the reason he was going to turn evil it might have played better if Lucas had the Jedi discover his secret relationship with Padme, expel him, and have him turn on them rather than this “I must save her” business. Or if he blamed them for not letting him go save his mother, he sensed Padme was in trouble, they wouldn’t let him help her, she died, and he turned evil.

I think the story might have worked better if:

Anakin Skywalker and Owen SKYWALKER were brothers, with their wives, are farming on Tattooine (at a different farm for Pete's sake so the hiding place is better). Anakin is tired of the family life and the farm. He has wonderlust. Young Jedi Obi-wan Kenobi comes to Tatooine recruiting for people to fight in the Clone Wars, which are tearing the galaxy apart, because the Republic, which doesn't use Clones, is overwhelmed by the forces of the Mandalorians, who do. Anakin agrees to go because the Republic has more cash than soldiers and he wants the money, but also thinks the galaxy is worth fighting for. He leaves with Obi-wan. Owen is very bitter that Anakin is leaving and tells him not to go. The wife and Owen are pretty much out of the picture.

Obi-wan and Anakin became close fighting in the Clone Wars under Bail Organa, who owns R2-D2 and C-3P0, who would have virtually no contact with Obi-wan, Anakin, or any other character from the original trilogy. Anakin also works alongside, and perhaps under, a non-Jedi general named Tarkin.

Obi-wan and Anakin make a good team. They have Butch Cassidy and Sundance type adventures and they are both kind of like Han. Obi-wan is known as a bit of a rogue, impatient, reckless, sometimes angry. He and Anakin are a great fit. Obi-wan is promoted to Genearl and people start to know the team as talented. Obi-wan senses how strong the force is in Anakin. He wants to train him, but isn't allowed to because Anakin is too old to be trained in the traditional sense, and he has a wife. So, Obi-wan trains him in secret, convinced he can do a good job.

But Anakin is greedier than Obi-wan. Obi-wan sees him use the Dark Side where necessary and is alarmed. Anakin goes for money and power. Obi-wan goes to his master, Yoda, and confesses what he has done. However, he is impudent with Yoda, showing his own flashes of anger. Yoda agrees that Anakin needs to be kept an eye so is made a Jedi Knight, so he can be watched.

Anakin is interested in status and in gaining more and more power. Though happy to be a Jedi, he rebukes the control the Jedi try to place on him. A politician named Palpatine, who was elected promising to end the Clone Wars, takes an interest in Anakin and offers him the universe.

At some point, Anakin goes home on leave and impregnates his wife.

Of course, you need lightsaber duels, so you would have some Sith Lords, who are working with the Mandalorians to take control of the galaxy. You could have had a bunch of Jedi fight Sith Lords, as there was no reason to limit them to two.

The Jedi work hard to destroy the cloning centers, the true reason the Mandalorians have success in the war, their sheer numbers.

During the Wars, the Republic is having a tough time so Palpatine declares himself the Emperor and the Republic the Empire, for security. He secretly offers Anakin the number two spot and Anakin agrees. Palpatine is a Sith who left the fold, because he wanted to rule alone, not be a part of the larger Sith, but perhaps Anakin never knows Palpatine is a Sith. Given that Anakin has always used the dark side when it suited him, it woudln’t be such a drastic shift.

The Wars are coming to a close and Palpatine orchestrates an event that leads the populace to believe the Jedi are a threat to the Republic. He announces they must be destroyed and puts Anakin in charge of it.

Yoda says that the Jedi must stop the Emperor and kill Anakin. Obi-wan goes to try to turn Anakin back to good, but is unable. They fight. Anakin is horribly injured. Obi-wan believes he is dead and takes his lightsaber.

He soon discovers Anakin lived and reemerges as Darth Vader, who is hunting down the remaining Jedi. With the populace against them, the Jedi are overwhelmed. The Empire could only have fallen with the Rebellion to support it.

Obi-wan goes to tell Anakin’s wife what has transpired and discovers she is pregnant. He says she must leave Tattooine. Owen is unwilling to leave Tatooine, but understands the threat. He sells the family farm and Owen and Beru go into hiding on the other side of the planet and assume the name Lars. Given that the wife lives on Tattooine and prenatal care isn’t what it could be, no one knows she is carrying twins.

The wife goes to Dagobah with Yoda. Yoda instructs Obi-wan to go watch after the Lars’ from a distance, since they are in danger and it is kind of Obi-wan’s fault. The twins are born. Yoda gives Leia to Organa to live with the royal family on Alderaan. The mother goes with Leia to Alderaan, to watch over her from a distance the way that Obi-wan was with Luke, only visiting Leia occasionally because she does not want to run the risk that Vader will find her and figure out they had a child.

The Emperor wants any children Anakin had before the accident. Vader can’t find anyone on Tattooine, but does track his wife to Alderaan. He talks with her and doesn’t think that she children. He offers for her to come rule the galaxy as his queen. He rebukes her and he kills her.
Yoda gives Luke to Obi-wan. Yoda does not tell Organa or Obi-wan that there are two babies. Obi-wan gives Owen and Beru Luke and agrees to watch over him, in exile, devastated at what he has done to the galaxy. Owen is happy to have the farm hand but tells Obi-wan to keep away. R2-D2 and C-3P0 end up with Antilles by the end. Obi-wan assumes the not so clever secret name Ben Kenobi. Owen, Beru, and Luke assume the name Lars until Luke is ready to know his true destiny and even name when Obi-wan tells him years later. Yoda sits on Dagobah.

In addition to what I said, it could have been fleshed out with all sorts of interesting creatures, characters, and planets we are accustomed to (and got in the prequels).

Oh, by the way, I like the prequels much more than you might think. I just think they could have been done better, with original trilogy dialogue as a guideline.

Elliejabbapop
06-05-2005, 12:59 PM
Roger that, Devo! :)


Hey, I'm not "obsessed." Just....interested. :D

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol



Boy, if you think that the character that we see in the Prequels is "in love," then it's you who have a whacked definition of love and probably have never really been in true love.

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol


actually works to help build Anakin's turn toward the darkside.

I agree on this one.


Here, we've got a little innocent kid who never gets out much and finally meets a girl who gives him the time of day. After a scant few misadventures "together," they split up for around 10 years. The kid hadn't even hit puberty yet but he began "thinking about her everyday." (AOTC) If that doesn't sound like obsession, unhealthy at that, I don't know what does. Then when she brushes him off (at least to his eyes), he turns on the rapist leer to a point that she even admonishes him about it: "Stop looking at me like that...it makes me uncomfortable." He "apologizes" but instead of appearing to be humbled, he continues to do it! :evil: Is that the "love" you're referring to?

He's not turning a "rapist look" on, he's defying her, he's trying to prove he's not a little boy anymore. I agree with you on the fact that thinking about her for ten years may have been an obsession but as it turns out they fall in love for real, and I think it shows especially at the beginning of episode III. It's a pity we don't get to see the intercourse between episode II and III. I think it would have been very interesting.



As do the rest of us, so you're assumption that I don't sounds VERY stupid. It doesn't take a whole lotta brain power or time to see the problems in the Prequels and talk about them...well, for me at least.

I already told you, I do notice them but I don't dedicate my whole life to such unimportant things.


I've watched these movies more than 551 times for sure (that's when I lost count after a bet with my dad *lol*) and I'm still doing that. Just because I have different opinions doesn't mean that I don't understand the films. I'm open to other theories.

Droid
06-05-2005, 01:12 PM
It's a pity we don't get to see the intercourse between episode II and III. I think it would have been very interesting.


WHOA! Lucas got enough grief about a PG-13, let alone the XXX that would have received!

Elliejabbapop
06-05-2005, 01:15 PM
I think the problem with Padme reallly is that Lucas tried to write "the greatest love story of all time", with every hint of Romeo and Juliet he could throw in. It would have been better to just offer to the audience that they loved each other, have them already be together or just have Anakin met a girl and they clicked, rather than spending all of Episode II trying to convince us that we were watching something truly special.

I like this one Droid :)


Lucas had the Jedi discover his secret relationship with Padme, expel him, and have him turn on them rather than this “I must save her” business. Or if he blamed them for not letting him go save his mother, he sensed Padme was in trouble, they wouldn’t let him help her, she died, and he turned evil.

To tell the truth I thought of this before we started getting info on epIII. I really liked that idea, but then I changed my mind because I don't think being expelled from the order would have caused him to turn. Him being prevented from saving Padme is something I had not thought of and I think it's an excellent idea.

I think the story might have worked better if:


Anakin Skywalker and Owen SKYWALKER were brothers, with their wives, are farming on Tattooine (at a different farm for Pete's sake so the hiding place is better). Anakin is tired of the family life and the farm. He has wonderlust. Young Jedi Obi-wan Kenobi comes to Tatooine recruiting for people to fight in the Clone Wars, which are tearing the galaxy apart, because the Republic

I absolutely LOVE this starting point. :) :) :)


but also thinks the galaxy is worth fighting for.

You made him a lot like Luke, how sweet.


The wife and Owen are pretty much out of the picture.

I hate this. SW without a leading lady is just not SW. :( :( :(


Obi-wan is known as a bit of a rogue, impatient, reckless, sometimes angry.

I could never accept that, not after Alec Guinness.



Oh, by the way, I like the prequels much more than you might think. I just think they could have been done better, with original trilogy dialogue as a guideline.

I love everything else you wrote and I agree on this last one.

Elliejabbapop
06-05-2005, 01:18 PM
WHOA! Lucas got enough grief about a PG-13, let alone the XXX that would have received!

I never meant it in THAT sense Droid lol lol lol
Maybe I should have said "time lapse" ;)

Droid
06-05-2005, 01:34 PM
I love everything else you wrote and I agree on this last one.

Thanks for the kind words. I actually expected people to come after me with torches and pitchforks. Or someone saying, "These are Lucas' movies, if he wanted Yoda to get familiar with a bantha it is his option. If you think you can make a better movie, go ahead." Or something like that. Maybe it will come later.

I agree. Star Wars needs a strong leading lady, although I think you could argue Padme was turned into a piece of furniture and more of a set piece in Episode III after her strong role in Episodes I and II. I think Lucas needed to leave the "birth of the Rebellion" stuff in their to give her something to do. And I don't think she should have really given up on life when she had two kids and still believed there was good in her husband, just not the strong woman we believed she was.

I guess for my version of the prequels I meant that the mother is out of the picture in that once Anakin left Tatooine her part of the story would be over until she was fighting to save her children from the monster her husband became. I would have made her a very strong character in that sense.

I also would have had some other strong supporting characters who were women. I would have had the Queen of Alderann be a character who was involved in Galactic politics while her husband, Bail the solider, was off fighting. I would made the audience see that although Leia is like her biological mother, she became the person she was because of her adoptive mother.

I also don't much think of Obi-wan as impatient, angry, and reckless, but Obi-wan's conversation with Yoda on Dagobah in Empire implies that he was that way in his young days, though we never see it in the prequels. I think in the prequels they should have had Obi-wan and Anakin be both of these things, but make different choices. Obi-wan would admit his mistakes to Yoda, learn from them, and try to make Anakin also come around, but fail. Anakin would give in to his darker self and become Vader. Obi-wan would have a lot of time on Tatooine to realize the mistakes he made in his younger days, to become the Alec Guiness we know and love by the time A New Hope rolled around.

stillakid
06-05-2005, 05:26 PM
He's not turning a "rapist look" on, he's defying her, he's trying to prove he's not a little boy anymore. I agree with you on the fact that thinking about her for ten years may have been an obsession but as it turns out they fall in love for real,

When exactly does this happen, and why? Padme never has reason to fall in love with this punk, especially not enough to merit saying that she loves him truly, madly and deeply by the end of AOTC. Again, I don't know what your definition of love is, but the Anakin/Padme relationship doesn't represent mine.



I already told you, I do notice them but I don't dedicate my whole life to such unimportant things.
Who does? :confused: I'll respond to it by telling you that a writer, like myself, spends time thinking about these sorts of "unimportant" things. Analyzing the work of others helps make one's own work that much better.



I've watched these movies more than 551 times for sure (that's when I lost count after a bet with my dad *lol*) and I'm still doing that. Just because I have different opinions doesn't mean that I don't understand the films. I'm open to other theories.
Apparently you aren't paying any attention to what I am saying. If there is a story or character problem, it isn't a question of "opinion." The problem is there and is a fact. Not everything is open to interpretation or "other theories" unless the intention is to do the writer's job and make sense of a flawed script.

Look, enjoy the films all you want. I'm not telling you not to. :)

Devo
06-05-2005, 08:46 PM
Droid I think I can say that you described exactly, down to the letter, undoubtedly what I wanted from the prequels!! That was one hell of an outline. You covered everything that I wanted to see addressed, much of which was barely referenced in the films we did get - most notably the Anakin/Owen Lars/Obi wan situation. Well done on putting it together, I'll be reading that again and showing it to my brother, a disillusioned Star Wars enthusiast like myself, because I know he'll agree that what you wrote is far better than what we have now. I'm sure you didn't intend this but my feelings for the prequels have been worsened! I didn't think that was possible. Parts of them were enjoyable but *sigh* for the most part they were just wrong.

Droid
06-05-2005, 10:33 PM
Thanks, Devo. I must say I like the prequels. There's a lot of good stuff in there. But they really don't make the original trilogy dialogue very well.

Elliejabbapop
06-06-2005, 09:26 AM
the Anakin/Padme relationship doesn't represent mine.

Why didn't you say this from the start? :confused: If you had admitted it was your opinion and not an absolute concept (like you say below, read again) we could have avoided all this mess.


If there is a story or character problem, it isn't a question of "opinion." The problem is there and is a fact. Not everything is open to interpretation or "other theories"

This is just pretentious. Everyone has a personal way of seeing things. I don't know if I'm right, I don't know if you are right, I'm just expressing my opinion. Please from now on, if you have anything to say to me, you're welcome to pm me :)

stillakid
06-06-2005, 12:45 PM
Why didn't you say this from the start? :confused: If you had admitted it was your opinion and not an absolute concept (like you say below, read again) we could have avoided all this mess.
:confused: My "opinion" about what constitutes true love has little to do with what is presented onscreen. Anakin begins this relationship, if you can call it that, as a prepubescent child who develops an unhealthy obsession with a girl almost twice his age.

Then after not seeing one another for ten years, he expects her to feel the same way he does (obsessed with him). Then he begins the "leer," to which she calls him off and he ignores her with a sly "leer" back. Then for reasons yet to be determined, she somehow falls "truly, madly, deeply" in love with him even after he's shown signs of depression, confusion, juvenile anger and acting out, and obsession. Not too much love, compassion, nor caring in that mix to speak of.

So maybe it is an "opinion," but my version of love seems to be in line with the sappy Hallmark version than the Jerry Springer trailer park version that we see onscreen of an angry obsessive punk getting involved with a chick that hates kids (her own) who is only interested in "fixing" her man. Yeah, that's true love. :rolleyes:


This is just pretentious. Everyone has a personal way of seeing things.
True, but that doesn't mean that every "interpretation" is correct. There are some absolutes in this world and there are even accepted conventions when it comes to art, writing, and filmmaking. When one of those is broken, it is completely justifiable to call the "artist" on it. Now this doesn't preclude one from ignoring it and enjoying it anyway but the simple act of forming a like/dislike opinion doesn't negate the initial problem. I could give a rats arse if you like or dislike the movies or the characters or anything at all. That's not the point of the discussion...at least my end of it anyway. All I've ever tried to do is discuss the issues at hand in an objective manner.

2-1B
06-06-2005, 02:07 PM
I took down my 10th showing last night and Hayden still nails it. Every time I see it I just want him to go to Obi-Wan for help like Padme suggests.

Do you think Obers would have helped him or thrown him under the bus in front of the Council ?

I think Kenobi would have helped him out, I mean he already knew about his affection for Padme and he had to suspect the relationship and as Anakin's good friend I think he would have helped them out.

Man, if only Anakin had gone to Obi-Wan, I think things would have turned out differently. :bored:

Elliejabbapop
06-06-2005, 04:38 PM
Caesar, you the man!!!!! :D :D :D
ps. sk check on that Sextus Empiricus thing :) LM did a very good job but I still think it would be a good read for you. I'm not joking.

trandoshan666
06-06-2005, 06:53 PM
Do you think Obers would have helped him or thrown him under the bus in front of the Council ?

That's an excellent question, and one I've found myself pondering each time I've seen the movie. My gut feeling is that Obi-Wan would have done something to mitigate, but would still report the relationship to the Jedi Council.
I see Obi-Wan's allegiance to the Jedi order as taking precedent over his relationship with Anakin. I think the part where Obi-Wan asks Anakin — on the council's behalf — to spy on Palpatine solidified my thinking on this one.
Like I said, excellent question.

2-1B
06-07-2005, 03:19 AM
You've got a good point there Trandoshan, reading your post now I am thinking of AOTC when Anakin wants to set the gunship down to get Padme and Obi-Wan tells him that he will be expelled from the Jedi Order.

HOWEVER, that was before Anakin was knighted and there was still that father-son mentoring thing going on whereas in this next film they are more like brothers.

It's a tough call. I definitely think you are right that Obi-Wan would at least try to mitigate the damages. Even when he went to face "Anakin" on Mustafar, he waited before combat to have a few words with him but that was obviously after Anakin had done those deplorable deeds.

I like to think Obi-Wan would have treated this relationship as more of a gray area and at least help to mitigate the damages.

PloKoon2385
06-07-2005, 01:11 PM
Here is how I justify the Anakin in Ep. II (and to a lesser extent, in III). A Jedi is not supposed to love. Therefore, a Jedi will probably be faced with a certain degree of awkwardness (??) when faced with love. In AOTC, a lot of the dialogue was choppy (probably GL's fault) but it could also be because Anakin just didn't know what to say. I mean, everybody's first date is pretty awkward. Why can't it be awkward for a Jedi?
In Ep. III, the balcony scene, a lot of people say that it is quite lame. However, if you don't laugh and listen to the whole thing, it is a somewhat normal conversation that two lovers would have. I think Lucas was trying to convey the fact that they are just two lovers. Pay attention to the crap we say to eachother (honey bunny, an extreme example). When put into a movie it may sound quite stupid, but in fact it is realistic.
It could just be me trying to cover up for some pretty bad dialogue, but I think it was just fine.

Elliejabbapop
06-07-2005, 04:07 PM
Plo that is probably the most sensible thing that has been said in this thread so far (apart from the 1st post which is equally brilliant :)).
I wrote something similar but I can't remember if it was here at SirSteve's.
The problem is that people today feel embarassed by the very things they do when they're in love (maybe it's more when they're not in love and realise what they've done or said), so what is a natural inclination suddenly becomes awkward.

PloKoon2385
06-15-2005, 02:24 AM
Thank you. That is exactly what I was trying to convey. I have seen ROTS 6 times now and I still don't think the dialogue is as bad as everyone says it is. It may not be poetic (though some parts are brilliant), but it is quite satisfactory.