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stillakid
06-06-2005, 10:36 PM
LUKE
What is it?

BEN
Your fathers lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or as random as a blaster.

Luke pushes a button on the handle. A long beam shoots out about four feet and flickers there. The light plays across the ceiling.

BEN
An elegant weapon for a more civilized age. For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire.



It's no secret that George Lucas meant to model the Jedi Knights after the Samurai of old Japanese culture. Even some of the production design is meant to evoke familiarity with the imagery of that era.

"That era." That's really what I want to talk about here. The era of civilization that allows and is conducive to having it's "guardians" be armed primarily by close-quarters hand to hand weapons, like swords and knives. Anyone who has seen the motion picture, The Last Samurai , or has studied the history of the Samurai is familiar with the change in society which brought about their demise as a force for law and a force that was respected by the population.

In short, the introduction of projectile weapons...specifically, musket and bullet propelled rounds in the hands of an enemy would (and did) provide an end to the ways of the Samurai. Technology changed everything.


Which brings us to Star Wars and specifically, the Prequels. Naturally, it would be difficult to set up a society in which there were no "blasters" given the timeline leading up to Episode IV. And this isn't to suggest that there wasn't a time in the last "thousand generations" in which the Jedi were the dominant and respected force of justice in the Republic. But the question really is, why didn't their kind die out when the "blaster" came into its own in the Republic? Much like the Samurai on Earth, we see in ROTS just how helpless the Jedi really are when faced with too much firepower. While they are indeed skilled at deflection, they aren't invincible.

So by my estimation, the reign of the Jedi should have ended long before we even get to the time period described by the Prequels. They outlived their usefulness and clearly don't have the respect that they probably once did. When I first heard Old Ben's words, I conjured romantic images of imposing lightsaber wielding figures walking through city streets as the crowds parted in utmost respect and perhaps a little fear. It was the Jedi who were not only the tip of the sword...the were the sword and anyone bold enough to break the law would have to face the firm judgement of the Jedi Order.

With this universe that Old Ben implied, we never would have been witness to this kind of statement:



ANAKIN
Jedi business. Go back to your drinks.

No. In almost the same way as Old Ben need not request that people return to their own affairs in the Cantina (ANH), the Jedi of legend would never have had to utter words similar to that of a prime-time cop show on NBC.

What happened to the Jedi that we were promised? :(

JimJamBonds
06-06-2005, 11:08 PM
Thats a very good question there Stillakid. My thought is that things are going downhill both in the Republic and for the Jedi, this wasn't a snap your fingers and things have changed type operation rather it was a 'slow grind' to get to that point. Everything that we see is right on the cusp of that change thus Anakin has to say "Jedi business go back to your drinks" instead of people giving the Jedi a 'wide bearth.' To see the 'guardians...' that Obi Wan is speaking of and the ideas that you said (which I think would be really cool btw) we would likely have to go back a pretty good amount of time to see these things. Maybe several hundred years? I think Obi Wan was "waxing philosophically" to Luke about ye ol' days of yor inorder to get him to tag along.

Jim Jam

Darth Spectre
06-06-2005, 11:42 PM
I agree. I think Obi-Wan was talking about the prime of the Jedi, the height of the Republic. As Lucas has said, the Republic actually ceased to exist long before Palpatine declared it reorganized as an Empire, we (and the citizens of the Republic) just didn't recognize it yet. It is the decline in respect for the Jedi & their role that helped make Palpatine's machinations easier, especially when they are portrayed as "traitors" in EP III. I think it is Obi-Wan essentially just telling Luke what a Jedi was supposed to be and what they were at one point.

Rocketboy
06-06-2005, 11:42 PM
You read waaaaaay too much into that.

An elegant weapon for a more civilized age. For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire.
And that is exactly what we got.

stillakid
06-06-2005, 11:52 PM
You read waaaaaay too much into that.
No, I didn't.


And that is exactly what we got.
No, it isn't.

JimJamBonds
06-06-2005, 11:58 PM
Both are you (Stilla and Rocketboy) are correct we see a glimpse of what "was" but we don't really see what it was truly like. So you both are correct.... from a certain point of view ;)

Jim Jam

Blue2th
06-07-2005, 08:18 PM
I agree. I think Obi-Wan was talking about the prime of the Jedi, the height of the Republic. As Lucas has said, the Republic actually ceased to exist long before Palpatine declared it reorganized as an Empire, we (and the citizens of the Republic) just didn't recognize it yet. It is the decline in respect for the Jedi & their role that helped make Palpatine's machinations easier, especially when they are portrayed as "traitors" in EP III. I think it is Obi-Wan essentially just telling Luke what a Jedi was supposed to be and what they were at one point.
Life imitates Art? The democracy actually ceased to exist long before our government declares it reorganized as an Empire, we (The People) just didn't recognize it. Sorry I'm reading Way too much into this. :crazed:

Rocketboy
06-07-2005, 08:23 PM
No, I didn't.

No, it isn't.So tell me, where exactly does Ben say the Jedi were feared and respected samurai-style warriors?
:confused:

The Jedi were only based on samurai, they weren't actual samurai.



the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic.
Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in TPM: attempting to settle a conflict.
Obi-Wan and Anakin in AOTC: solving an attempted murder.
(both of which happened to become much more than just that)

Boy, those 2 examples sure sounds like "guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic" to me.

Darth Spectre
06-07-2005, 08:55 PM
Life imitates Art? The democracy actually ceased to exist long before our government declares it reorganized as an Empire, we (The People) just didn't recognize it. Sorry I'm reading Way too much into this. :crazed:

Yeah, you are...LOL. Nothing personal, but I am WAY sick of people making the Bush/Palpatine analogy crap. The Empire in SW is closer to the 3rd Reich than any other regime, though it resembles how many Empires came to be.

stillakid
06-07-2005, 09:16 PM
So tell me, where exactly does Ben say the Jedi were feared and respected samurai-style warriors?
:confused:

The Jedi were only based on samurai, they weren't actual samurai.


Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in TPM: attempting to settle a conflict.
Obi-Wan and Anakin in AOTC: solving an attempted murder.
(both of which happened to become much more than just that)

Boy, those 2 examples sure sounds like "guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic" to me.

Those two example sound more like a third rate cop show, like CHiPS. :D

Look, I see what you're saying and how one could diminish expectations and merely accept the mediocre version of the Jedi that we got. But the OT films and the ANH novelization prologue hinted that there was more to it. That's what I was getting at here, not a strict literal interpretation of the films (in this case). :)

2-1B
06-08-2005, 02:14 AM
The strict comparison of the Samurai to the Jedi is absurd because a Jedi can deflect a laser bolt with his or her saber but a Samurai could not deflect a bullet with his sword.

I don't see how the prequels ruined this, considering that we saw Luke flip flap floppin' around on that Sail Barge deflecting blasts so casually as if they were being shot out of that remote in ANH.

stillakid
06-08-2005, 07:31 AM
The strict comparison of the Samurai to the Jedi is absurd because a Jedi can deflect a laser bolt with his or her saber but a Samurai could not deflect a bullet with his sword.

I don't see how the prequels ruined this, considering that we saw Luke flip flap floppin' around on that Sail Barge deflecting blasts so casually as if they were being shot out of that remote in ANH.
Absurd? Really? That deflection technique worked wonders for so many Jedi after Order 66 was initiated, didn't it? :sur:

If anything, ROTS more than proves the idea that the Jedi could have been taken out long before Order 66 by any group with enough simultaneous firepower to level at them. Which, by the way, just happens to be what ended the time of the Samurai. I'm not saying that there is a direct parallel, only that such a primitive technology, like a sword (steel or laser), is no match for a guy (and his buddies) with rifle at 100 paces.

CaptainSolo1138
06-08-2005, 09:45 AM
a sword (steel or laser), is no match for a guy (and his buddies) with rifle at 100 paces.The Jedi (the non extra ones at least :p ) seemed to hold their own pretty well in the arena on Geonosis, and there were a ton of bolts to deflect. I see what your saying,though, about Order 66. But how can you block what you don't see/expect? Yes, I know, they're Jedi and should "know all", but, hell, they let Sidious slip past for how long? :p

2-1B
06-08-2005, 11:32 AM
Absurd? Really? That deflection technique worked wonders for so many Jedi after Order 66 was initiated, didn't it? :sur:

If anything, ROTS more than proves the idea that the Jedi could have been taken out long before Order 66 by any group with enough simultaneous firepower to level at them. Which, by the way, just happens to be what ended the time of the Samurai. I'm not saying that there is a direct parallel, only that such a primitive technology, like a sword (steel or laser), is no match for a guy (and his buddies) with rifle at 100 paces.


Yes, absurd. :)

Give me one gun, send a Samurai after me, and 9 times out of 10 I'll drop that mother ****er before he gets close enough to kill me.

Give me one lightsaber, knowledge of "The Force", the ability to reflect back some laser blasts, then send one clone after me and I'll drop him 10 times out of 10.

Send a platoon of clones and of course my chances of survival are decreased. :)

The key words in your last post are "more than enough simultaneous firepower" and that's exactly correct. During the very first prequel the scrawl refers to the Jedi as the guardians of peace and justice and that's exactly what Mace Windu says in AOTC "we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers." I didn't notice any of the Jedi hanging out during that Gungan land battle in TPM. :p

Sure ROTS proves that they could have been eradicated earlier - but there was never such a massive force plotting against them.

However, the initial post in this thread argues that the Jedi should have been wiped out before the prequels and then you ask where are the Jedi 'we' were "promised."
Also, "But the question really is, why didn't their kind die out when the "blaster" came into its own in the Republic?"

As I just stated, there was never such a massive plot against the Jedi during the early part of the prequels and so they were able to keep their own. One Jedi against 3 gunmen still has the upper hand. One Samurai against 3 gunmen, hey good luck. lol

stillakid
06-08-2005, 12:11 PM
Yes, absurd. :)

Give me one gun, send a Samurai after me, and 9 times out of 10 I'll drop that mother ****er before he gets close enough to kill me.

Give me one lightsaber, knowledge of "The Force", the ability to reflect back some laser blasts, then send one clone after me and I'll drop him 10 times out of 10.

Send a platoon of clones and of course my chances of survival are decreased. :)

The key words in your last post are "more than enough simultaneous firepower" and that's exactly correct. During the very first prequel the scrawl refers to the Jedi as the guardians of peace and justice and that's exactly what Mace Windu says in AOTC "we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers." I didn't notice any of the Jedi hanging out during that Gungan land battle in TPM. :p
And Anakin says in AOTC:




ANAKIN
Why else do you think we were assigned to protect
her, if not to find the killer? Protection is a job for
local security... not Jedi.

According to the continuity established by the Prequels, the Republic has "local security" to ensure protection...ergo, simple law enforcement. So what were the Jedi really for if that's the case?


Sure ROTS proves that they could have been eradicated earlier - but there was never such a massive force plotting against them.

However, the initial post in this thread argues that the Jedi should have been wiped out before the prequels and then you ask where are the Jedi 'we' were "promised."
Also, "But the question really is, why didn't their kind die out when the "blaster" came into its own in the Republic?"

As I just stated, there was never such a massive plot against the Jedi during the early part of the prequels and so they were able to keep their own. One Jedi against 3 gunmen still has the upper hand. One Samurai against 3 gunmen, hey good luck. lol
But where was the respect for the Jedi? They used an "elegant weapon" in a "more civilized age." KNOWING that Lucas based the Jedi on the Samurai and marrying that with the film lore, Lucas seems to have diminished the role of the Jedi as freaks who live on the outskirts of normal modern society waving their hands around with simple tricks and nonsense. Is that the image of the Jedi that you had in mind prior to seeing the Prequels? :sur:

2-1B
06-08-2005, 12:54 PM
You can't use just that quote stillakid because Obi-Wan himself says that their assignment was to protect her and not to start an investigation. Anakin counters with his arrogance and desire to impress the Senator.

I'm surprised that you are quoting Anakin of all people :confused: to support your claims, considering how much you hate the way his character was done.

"Where was the respect for the Jedi ?"
Even Rune Haako gave them some love :p in TPM when he asked "have you ever encountered a Jedi Knight before, sir ? We will not survive this." lol

stillakid
06-08-2005, 01:05 PM
You can't use just that quote stillakid because Obi-Wan himself says that their assignment was to protect her and not to start an investigation. Anakin counters with his arrogance and desire to impress the Senator.
Sure I can. The point that I was making was that the Republic wasn't being protected merely by a few thousand Jedi as guardians of peace and justice...at least not at the time of AOTC. The Republic clearly had "security" forces scattered around who were in charge of police duties. So the question remains valid: what was the purpose of the Jedi once the blaster was invented (thus making the use of a sword obsolete)? With security forces available...people not needing a high Midichlorian count to operate a lightsaber...why bother keeping an obsolete organization like the Jedi around?


I'm surprised that you are quoting Anakin of all people :confused: to support your claims, considering how much you hate the way his character was done.
Just followin' the rule book. Why would my quoting Anakin (the Prequels) bother you so? :confused:


"Where was the respect for the Jedi ?"
Even Rune Haako gave them some love :p in TPM when he asked "have you ever encountered a Jedi Knight before, sir ? We will not survive this." lol
Sure, but those brave Jedi were also the ones who cut and ran when they couldn't handle just two attackers (one on one). Right?

2-1B
06-08-2005, 01:15 PM
Just followin' the rule book. Why would my quoting Anakin (the Prequels) bother you so? :confused:

Because you've said on these forums many times about how Anakin was trying "to get in her pants" and his saying that, at that particular time, was directly in that vein. But now you're quoting Anakin's wisdom as par for the course when his more level headed mentor clearly said that No, their job WAS to protect her.

That's not to say that they didn't ALSO use security forces for that same function. The guardians of peace and justice, to me, is not strictly a police force but rather mediators and ambassadors, as referenced directly in The Phantom Menace and through hearsay by Mace Windu (border dispute on Ansion) in Attack of the Clones. :)


Sure, but those brave Jedi were also the ones who cut and ran when they couldn't handle just two attackers (one on one). Right?

Not really, they cut and ran because it was a standoff due to the Droidekas' shield generators. :)

2-1B
06-08-2005, 01:16 PM
Good thread, though, seriously. I'm enjoying this discussion. :)

stillakid
06-08-2005, 04:53 PM
Because you've said on these forums many times about how Anakin was trying "to get in her pants" and his saying that, at that particular time, was directly in that vein. But now you're quoting Anakin's wisdom as par for the course when his more level headed mentor clearly said that No, their job WAS to protect her.
Quite honestly, I can't ever recall that I ever directly connected his statement about investigating the problem and his trying to get into her pants. While that is indeed his primary motivation (he actually turned into Darth Vader because of blue ba11s :crazed: ), just because he mentions the security forces doesn't negate their existence just because he's trying to impress her.


That's not to say that they didn't ALSO use security forces for that same function. The guardians of peace and justice, to me, is not strictly a police force but rather mediators and ambassadors, as referenced directly in The Phantom Menace and through hearsay by Mace Windu (border dispute on Ansion) in Attack of the Clones. :)
I see. So what's good for the goose is good for the Bantha? I'm not necessarily taking a strict interpretation of what Old Ben said and believing that the Jedi were once very revered as in the tradition of the Earthly Samurai...while you aren't taking a strict interpretation either but turning them into little more than mall cops who break up minor disputes and shoplifting problems. But I'm to blame...I opened the door and allowed this item to be subject to personal interpretation and this is what we end up with. :)




Not really, they cut and ran because it was a standoff due to the Droidekas' shield generators. :)
Ergo, just another technology which would have rendered the Jedi and their quaint little energy swords obsolete. :ermm:

Rocketboy
06-08-2005, 10:03 PM
And let's not forget...bullets fly faster than laser bolts.
:D

stillakid
06-08-2005, 11:59 PM
And let's not forget...bullets fly faster than laser bolts.
:D

True. :) Lightspeed just isn't what it used to be. :p

I vaguely recall someone talking about an episode of Star Trek when Picard managed to sidestep a laser blast that was coming at him. That kind of thing would make me rethink putting that Colt .45 away. :dead:

JediTricks
06-10-2005, 07:05 PM
Star Wars and Star Trek do not use "lasers", SW uses blaster bolts which are excited gasses sheathed in a photonic envelope, while Trek uses phaser beams which are phasing-particle energy beams.... I AM KING DORK!!!! :D Seriously though, it's not very cinematic to use realistic laser effects, they're usually invisible to the naked eye and instantaneous even in space battles.

stillakid
06-11-2005, 03:11 AM
Star Wars and Star Trek do not use "lasers", SW uses blaster bolts which are excited gasses sheathed in a photonic envelope, while Trek uses phaser beams which are phasing-particle energy beams.... I AM KING DORK!!!! :D Seriously though, it's not very cinematic to use realistic laser effects, they're usually invisible to the naked eye and instantaneous even in space battles.
Apparently it's also become uncinematic to use a well thought out plot. :D