PDA

View Full Version : Dooku and Palpatine's plan at the start of the film



BoShek
06-10-2005, 04:31 PM
Something from the movie doesn't sit right with me the more I think about it. So Dooku has Palpatine hostage. Does the two of them have it set up to lead the Jedi into a trap? Or does Dooku not know that Papatine is his master?

If he doesn't know then he is pretty well stupid.

If he does know: did he think Papatine would help him kill the Jedi? Did Dooku think he could handle it himself? He must of felt betrayed when he lost to Anakin and Palpy just looked on.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
06-10-2005, 04:45 PM
It was a mission launched by Sidious to get Anakin closer to the Dark Side. If he killed Count Dooku, then he'd take him as his apprentice. If not, then time to move on. Dooku probably thought it was a trap for the Jedi and that the two Sith could kill two of the most powerful Jedi, but obviously that backfired right into his decapitated face.

I think that Dooku knew that Palpatine and Sidious were the same guy, but Grievous did not.

Ji'dai
06-10-2005, 04:49 PM
That's the only thing in the movie that doesn't sit right? ;)

Yeah, Dooku knew Palpatine was Darth Sidious, Dark Lord of the Sith. He even tells Obi-Wan prior to the Battle of Geonosis that the Republic is under the control of a Sith Lord. The kidnapping plot was a ruse to lure Anakin into a fight with Dooku and get him to kill the old man. When Palpatine tells Anakin to finish him off, Dooku glances at his master in disbelief. When he got home, Palpatine put an ad in the Coruscant Daily Planet for a new Sith apprentice.

JediTricks
06-10-2005, 08:41 PM
I don't get it either BoShek, it's as if Lucas were saying there where wheels within wheels within wheels going on there, but forgot to actually make either of the inner wheels.

This is the symptom of a larger problem I feel the prequels suffer from, they don't give real plot time to the villains, instead playing off this artificially-created feeling of mystery throughout the whole film without any payoff much of the time (the first one that comes to my mind is still the Sifo Dyas element of Ep 2, why even put that into the movie if it isn't going to be tied up by the plot somehow? It's a dangling plotpoint). We don't get a lot of mystery get in the OT like this, there's Han & co's arrival at Cloud City before they discover that the Empire is already there but that's only a few minutes of mystery, we get the "other" Yoda mentions but that's really vague and has no actual connection to ESB's plotpoints, there are no dangling clues to Anakin being Vader before the end battle of ESB. ANH, ESB, and ROTJ all give their villains ample screentime to fill the audience in on what they're doing and about to do and thinking about doing, the prequels almost never do this and when they do it's always overly vague, cryptic, and confusing under the guise of "plot mystery".

Rocketboy
06-10-2005, 09:23 PM
Would you want this supossed hot shot 22-year-old on your team if he couldn't even take down a creepy 135-year-old man?

Captain Spoon
06-10-2005, 09:47 PM
It seems to me that Palpatine had Dooku by the pills the whole time. He knew that if he went up against Anakin, Ani would woop him. Also by doing this he could attempt to bring out Anakins anger to help put him on the path to the darkside. Plus If you check the Look on Dooku's face when Palpatine tells Ani to wax him, it clearly shows that Dooku knew he was his master. He has that "damn dude, what the ***k are you doing, I thought we were cool" look to him. He couldn't beleive what he was hearing. At least that's what I got from it

VaderhitsJarjar
06-10-2005, 09:50 PM
He did know

He fully expected his master to protect him

besides this was typed about in another thread.

JediTricks
06-10-2005, 11:38 PM
I don't get why Palpatine felt Anakin could take Dooku, their very last encounter cost Anakin his arm and nearly his life even though he went in on his passion instead of his training, Dooku schooled him then and I didn't get what had changed here.

2-1B
06-11-2005, 12:24 AM
Anakin: "My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count."

Dooku: "Good. Twice the pride, double the fall."

Awesome scene. :D

darko666
06-11-2005, 12:41 AM
it's odd that dooku could take out obi-wan with no problem, but anakin posed a problem. it happened in AOTC also. the dark side is truly more powerful.

as for the plan, it was all sidious' doing, to get anakin to be his apprentice, or at least to drive him to the dark side faster. dooku was ignorant of his masters plan, thus the dark side clouds all, even from sith themselves. and grievous was to brain washed into war mongering, that he couldn't tell the diff. between sidious and plapatine. for god sakes, its only a hood covering some of his face. thats why dooku had such a complete look of shock on his face when he was f'ed over by his master. but you already know that, there is no need to explain anymore.

all i ask is, why couldn't Maul be the main sith for the prequel trilogy? at least there would have been a key villian (beside the birth of Vader) to build a story behind. damn Lucas and his ability to kill off cool villians in the length of one movie.

JediTricks
06-11-2005, 02:38 AM
Anakin: "My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count."

Dooku: "Good. Twice the pride, double the fall."

Awesome scene. :D
Ah yes, the scene where Anakin brags that he's changed even though we haven't been shown zippidy doo dah suggesting that up until then and nothing to support it afterwards. I think Dooku was right in his response, the only thing Anakin doubled was his arrogance.

VaderhitsJarjar
06-11-2005, 09:45 AM
I think Pride got the best of Obi-Wan as well -
He does mention that he is experienced killing sith lords - I cant remember when he states this but I think it was at Dooku

BoShek
06-11-2005, 10:08 AM
This would have been a good scene: Dooku should have used the force to open the restraints on Palpatine, so he could help him, but Palpatine used the force to put them back and smiled.

Obi-wedge
06-11-2005, 10:09 AM
The novel has a great description of Dooku's realization of his masters plan. Of course this comes right as he is getting his arse handed to him by Anakin.

Mad Slanted Powers
06-11-2005, 10:38 AM
The book explains it this way. The plan was to kill Kenobi, and then let Anakin take Dooku as his prisoner. Then Dooku would enjoy "a captivity that would allow him to sit out the rest of the war in comfort; a captivity that would allow him to forswear his former allegiances - when he would conveniently appear to finally discover the true extent of the Separatists' crime against civilization - and bind himself to the new government with his reputation for integrity and idealism intact."

Of course, once Anakin had him beaten, Palpatine/Sidious decided to alter the plan, which was his plan all along.

tagmac
06-11-2005, 10:57 AM
By keeping in (if it was ever filmed), or including this simple line by Dooku, "You promised me amnesty!" you'd have had the whole mystery solved in all of 2 seconds. As for the Sypho-Dyas thing, it's clear that Lucas left it out of the movie to force us into buying "Labrynth of Evil" (which I have no desire to read) and/or the ROTS visual dictionary, both of which are said to reveal that Dooku posed as Dyas and erased Kamino from the archives.

JimJamBonds
06-11-2005, 01:43 PM
Also had Palps true identity been revealed that early we wouldn't have gotten to see Anners falling for the carrot of saving Padme. We we do still get to see Ani fall for that knowledge but when he does we know by then that he's having "issues" with the Jedi and those pesky dreams.

As for not being told who erased Kamino from the Jedi Archives. About 3.2 seconds after hearing Yoda and Obi Wan wonder aloud I had already thought Dooku was the culprit.

Jim Jam

Mad Slanted Powers
06-11-2005, 05:07 PM
As for not being told who erased Kamino from the Jedi Archives. About 3.2 seconds after hearing Yoda and Obi Wan wonder aloud I had already thought Dooku was the culprit.

I'm a little slow sometimes, so I didn't pick that up right away, but the evidence is right there in the movie. Yoda says that only a Jedi could have erased it. Dooku was a Jedi. Jango said he was hired for the cloning by a man called Tyranus, which is Dooku. Obi-Wan says that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the clones were ordered, so someone must have impersonated him. Putting all this together, it is logical to assume that Dooku ordered the clones posing as Sifo-Dyas, and erased Kamino from the archives.

JimJamBonds
06-11-2005, 05:35 PM
I'm a little slow sometimes, so I didn't pick that up right away, but the evidence is right there in the movie. Yoda says that only a Jedi could have erased it. Dooku was a Jedi. Jango said he was hired for the cloning by a man called Tyranus, which is Dooku. Obi-Wan says that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the clones were ordered, so someone must have impersonated him. Putting all this together, it is logical to assume that Dooku ordered the clones posing as Sifo-Dyas, and erased Kamino from the archives.

Sorry posty I hope I didn't come off as a jerk that wasn't my intention. The 'who ordered the Clones thing' I wasn't as sure about, I was hoping we would have heard something more about Sifo-Dyas. My 3.2 second comment was entierly based on the "who erased Kamino."

Jim Jam

Mad Slanted Powers
06-11-2005, 09:11 PM
Sorry posty I hope I didn't come off as a jerk that wasn't my intention. The 'who ordered the Clones thing' I wasn't as sure about, I was hoping we would have heard something more about Sifo-Dyas. My 3.2 second comment was entierly based on the "who erased Kamino."

Jim Jam

No, not at all. I was just pointing out how all of it seemed unresolved to me, even until recently. Now, it makes perfect sense. I guess the same thing that keeps me from picking up on something like that also allows me to not see many of the supposed flaws the prequels have.

2-1B
06-12-2005, 01:01 AM
Ah yes, the scene where Anakin brags that he's changed even though we haven't been shown zippidy doo dah suggesting that up until then and nothing to support it afterwards. I think Dooku was right in his response, the only thing Anakin doubled was his arrogance.

Oh man, there is so much zip, lots of doo, and even a little bit of dah that we are shown !

The most obvious being when Anakin skillfully slips inside Dooku's close personal space and kindly removes his hands. :)

If Dooku was right, then how in Hoth did he fall to Skywalker this time ? :confused: :confused: :confused:

JimJamBonds
06-12-2005, 10:36 AM
If Dooku was right, then how in Hoth did he fall to Skywalker this time ? :confused: :confused: :confused:

I would say this is due to the fact that Dookers was giving Ani the business even suggesting that he has anger and hate yet doesn't use them. That I would say allowed him to defeat das Count.

Jim Jam

VaderhitsJarjar
06-12-2005, 12:50 PM
I would even venture to say that Palpy asked Dooku to go easy and lure out Anakins Pride and Anger - all the time saying - "Don't worry my trusted sith servant Papa Palpys got your back (wink)."

BoShek
06-12-2005, 03:36 PM
Does anyone know what Sifo-Dyas looked like? I guess it he looked a lot like Dooku ...

Mad Slanted Powers
06-12-2005, 05:27 PM
Does anyone know what Sifo-Dyas looked like? I guess it he looked a lot like Dooku ... He wouldn't necessarily have to. The Kaminoans probably don't keep up on things that closely being that far out, so they wouldn't know one Jedi from the next. Heck, it is ten years later and they are wondering if Sifo-Dyas is still on the council.

JediTricks
06-12-2005, 11:13 PM
I'm a little slow sometimes, so I didn't pick that up right away, but the evidence is right there in the movie. Yoda says that only a Jedi could have erased it. Dooku was a Jedi. Jango said he was hired for the cloning by a man called Tyranus, which is Dooku. Obi-Wan says that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the clones were ordered, so someone must have impersonated him. Putting all this together, it is logical to assume that Dooku ordered the clones posing as Sifo-Dyas, and erased Kamino from the archives.Except that either Dooku was doing all this while still a Jedi or had already left the order and somehow got a free pass to just waltz back in for a little library-tampering fun. And weren't the clones ordered just before the events of TPM while Maul was still alive, the "only 2 Sith" angle being in play?

Anyway, it certainly didn't track in the film I think, and from our discussions 3 years ago on the topic it seems virtually nobody else got that implication either. Not saying it's not true, but it's horribly presented either way.



Oh man, there is so much zip, lots of doo, and even a little bit of dah that we are shown !
The most obvious being when Anakin skillfully slips inside Dooku's close personal space and kindly removes his hands. :)
If Dooku was right, then how in Hoth did he fall to Skywalker this time ? :confused: :confused: :confused: What? What do we see BEFORE Anakin says that which suggests this? Anakin takes a cheap shot because he's been under the influence of Palpatine for the past few years, as we're shown a moment later, but nowhere do we see him actually more POWERFUL that I can think of, not before or after. Your point would be a good counter to mine since I did say "changed" but that's taking it out of the original context, in response to the line you yourself quoted "Anakin: My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count." the doubled-power is the change I was referring to.


I would say this is due to the fact that Dookers was giving Ani the business even suggesting that he has anger and hate yet doesn't use them. That I would say allowed him to defeat das Count. Hmm, good point. Accents the "Palpatine's additional advice over the last few years" thing when Anakin takes Dooku up on his claim.

2-1B
06-13-2005, 01:14 AM
JT, I didn't say that Anakin wasn't puffing a bit with his claim that his powers have literally doubled.

He is certainly more confident and composed than I saw in the last movie, that's for sure. :)