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princethomas
06-10-2005, 08:35 PM
I have decide to put together a list of all of the plot holes, problems and inconsistencies that are now clear after having seen ROTS. I have spent a long time thinking about it and think that I can list them all without problem.

Here goes.....





....ok, that didnt take long. :D

-T

Kidhuman
06-11-2005, 12:46 AM
Inconsistencies are there,

Leia saying her mom died when she was young, her real mom and that she remembers her.

2-1B
06-11-2005, 01:04 AM
Not to be too technical KH, but LUKE asks if Leia remembers mumsie and in that Carrie Fisher Cocaine Binge way she says "just images really, feelings."

So, Leia does not specifically say she remembers her mom. :)

Did I have the impression growing up that Leia's mother died in childbirth ? No.

Kidhuman
06-11-2005, 01:10 AM
I understand what you are saying Caesar, but it does sound like Padme didnt die at childbirth, so to me that is inconsistent. Perception is greater than reality....

JoDoMa77
06-11-2005, 01:35 PM
Here is my take on it: For someone to have memories from the moment of birth, we find it hard to grasp, because it doesn't seem possible, but the twins, because of who their father is, are "force sensitive". Because of this sensitivity, they are different from you and I, so I can see that Leia may have a memory of her mother, especially since her eyes were open and got a glimpse of her mother, whereas Luke's eyes were closed and was not able to get the image in his mind as Leai did.

princethomas
06-11-2005, 02:46 PM
Hey, I was obviously trying to be sarcastic, but I really dont see any real inconsistencies. So I started this thread so we could really get into it.

I think the Leia mother memory thing is the only one that tooke me by surprise. Yes, I always assumed that Leia's mom must have died when she was maybe 2 or 3 at the earliest. So when I heard that she might die in ROTS I didnt believe it. However, I honestly believe that if someone were to watch these movies for the first time from 1 through 6 order, when it comes down time to hear Leia say these things. I doubt anyone will question it. Her images and feelings dont really contradict anything, at this point, we have just found out that she is a potential force user. Which means that images and feelings are very likely and we have seen many examples to this point.
The only catch is that she says "she died when I was very young" I figure shed be told that she died in childbirth. Audience members might Joke. yeah VERY young. But its not truly inconsistent.

On top of that, this is the worst example of inconsistencies in the whole thing and its not really that bad.

-T

So what are some others?

Imperial Monarche
06-11-2005, 11:25 PM
I always assumed that Leia was talking about mommy Organa, saying that she died when Leia was young and that perhaps Bail remarried and so she would have been Leia's step mother. I never thought Leia realized she was adopted. But still, if she was referring to Padme, I agree that the Force sensitivity part of her allowed her to have feelings like she knew her mother. I explained in another thread somewhere that, remember something that you did, vacation you went on or something like that when you were a little kid. You have memories of that stuff because you're parents told you about them, so you don't really remember them from a first hand view because of how young you were, even though you were there, but your mind makes up images and memories from what your parents told you. I'm claiming that's what happened with Leia. Bail and wife told her about Padme so she was able to make up her own images, knowing that she died at birth. Luke was not so lucky. Owen and Beru never really knew Padme like the Organa's did...they didn't even know Anakin for that matter, so therefore there was nothing to tell Luke about his mother and they made up something to tell him about Anakin. That's why he "has no memory of [his] mother." I never really bought into the whole, Leia saw Padme and Luke didn't, or Padme held Leia but not Luke. That seems so far fetched and if that was what Lucas was trying to portray, (which I don't, it's more contrived from what the fan-boys want to think about the scene) then it wasn't a good idea.

The inconsitistancy for me is something that stillakid has brought up, making Owen Anakin's half-brother. It made more sense to keep him Obi-Wan's brother from the OT because, like stilla brought up, there's always that chance that Anakin/ Vader will return to Tatooine to visit his mom's grave and notice that there's a boy that would be about the age of his "unborn" son with the same last name of his former self. Having Anakin start out on Tatooine itself set up for some inconsitancy that could have been worked around, but really wasn't.

trandoshan666
06-11-2005, 11:52 PM
… there's always that chance that Anakin/ Vader will return to Tatooine to visit his mom's grave and notice that there's a boy that would be about the age of his "unborn" son with the same last name of his former self. Having Anakin start out on Tatooine itself set up for some inconsitancy that could have been worked around, but really wasn't.

Vader had the chance to pay his old planet a visit early in ANH — he was right there — but elects to let the stormtroopers go down without him and search for the missing Death Star Plans. If Vader's actions in that situation were any indication of his feelings about returning to Tatooine, then I doubt that he'd ever really consider it. Then again, could Obi-Wan have seriously thought that Vader would never dropped in? Must ponder some more …

DarthAngel
06-11-2005, 11:55 PM
The inconsitistancy for me is something that stillakid has brought up, making Owen Anakin's half-brother. It made more sense to keep him Obi-Wan's brother from the OT because, like stilla brought up, there's always that chance that Anakin/ Vader will return to Tatooine to visit his mom's grave and notice that there's a boy that would be about the age of his "unborn" son with the same last name of his former self. Having Anakin start out on Tatooine itself set up for some inconsitancy that could have been worked around, but really wasn't.

I am not sure if I would consider that to be an inconsistency. I actually find it rather interesting that both father and son come from the same planet. Besides, if your mother died, and you became something that was half man half machine, I don't think you would go to your mothers grave like that...let alone set foot upon a barren world like Tatooine.

Tonysmo
06-12-2005, 12:58 AM
while I agree that Luke shouldnt have been brought to the same place his grandmother is buried.. Anakin did make that comment in AOTC that he loathed sand.. maybe he didnt feel the need to get the grit in his new suit. :D

Kidhuman
06-12-2005, 01:01 AM
If he had gotten the sane in his suit, it would have been a b**ch getting it out of his cod piece.

Ji'dai
06-12-2005, 01:32 AM
You'd think Owen Lars would remember C-3PO when the Jawas peddle him at the farm in A New Hope.

When Kliegg bought Shmi from Watto, I'm assuming 3PO, being one her possessions, was part of the deal. The droid was at the farm when Anakin, Padme, and R2 visit during AOTC so I assume 3PO has been there for some time, at least during Owen's youth. If Owen recognized Anakin well enough to introduce himself as his half-brother, then I'm sure he was aware that the protocol droid had been built by Anakin. (Much to his chagrin, I'm sure - "Well, Owen, my other son, Ani, was building droids and racing pods at NINE!" - probably didn't do too much for his adult disposition toward Anakin and his "friend" Kenobi) Presumably Kliegg let Anakin take 3PO as a memento of his mother when he left; plus he built the droid anyway.

Now, even in a galaxy where droids are as mundane as any other tool, such as a hammer or hydrospanner, I still think 3PO's arrival at the farm some twenty years later would stir some memory. It's his half-brother's kit-bashed droid, for criminy sake. Sure, he's a little shinier in ANH than in AOTC, but his name/designation was unchanged. So why the heck didn't Owen recognize the return of such as prissy robot as 3PO?

princethomas
06-12-2005, 09:42 AM
Vader not going back to Tatooine..
This is not a plot hole. After Vader lets out the now infamous NOOOOOOOOO that everyone hates, I dont think there is a bit of emotion left in him. That NO is the last emotional moment he has. There is no Anakin left in him, or it is buried down deep inside. Next you see him, arms crossed on Star Destroyer. I dont see any reason at all he d ever go back to Tattooine. In fact I think hed stay away intentionally. He could have gone down to Tat at the beginning of ANH but he doesnt.

Secondly, Stillakid is wrong because reguardless of who is Anakin's brother the situation is the same. Reguardless of who is whos brother, we KNOW that Anakin has spent some decent time on Tatooine. We KNOW he had the opportunity to live on Tatooine with or Near Owen. We KNOW this because Obi says "He thought he should have STAYED here and not gotten involved." Therefore the problems that Stillakid believes exist are still there even if Owen and Obi are brothers. The fact is, that it is clear that Anakin was very aware of Tatooine and Owen Lars and therefore he would possibly go there to look for either Obi-Wan or Luke if he had reason to look. If hes not looking for his kid, which I think we all believe he is not, then it doesnt matter who is whos brother either, cuz hes not going back there at all.

-T

princethomas
06-12-2005, 09:51 AM
As far as issues of Droid recognition. I dont find this to be a problem. We are aware now that R2 recognizes everyone and 3p0 recognizes no one.

As for Obi-Wan. A lot of people seem to think its a problem that he doesnt recognize R2. And some people say he does recognize him. I dont think he does and I dont think thats a problem. He says "come here my little friend, dont be afraid" I think he recognizes that he is an astromech droid which are very important in his old world. But honestly, I dont think hed recognize him at first. He doesnt even know his number. And blue isnt exactly an uncommon color. Probably he does realize its him later when he is presenting the message. you ll see, as Obi-Wan watches the Message from Leia, at some point I believe he does look over at R2

As for Owen and 3P0. I dont know. I still think that enough droids have come in and out of his life in the 20 years since 3P0 left that he wouldnt recognize him right away. Remember that Anakin built him but didnt program him. So that prissy attitude was probably not unique to 3P0. And Owen only spoke to him for about 20 seconds. It very possible that Owen would have recognized him had he had a whole conversation with him. But he never got that chance.

Devo
06-12-2005, 11:42 AM
Heres a long post - please try and bear with it. I'm sure you'll find some points of interest in it.

It seems like Lucas was deliberately skirting the fine line between the believable and the unbelievable with these matters, asking us to place everything under the banner of Obi-wan's "from a certain point of view" line in Return of the Jedi. Maybe he thought he was being clever by exploiting the 'vagueness' of certain OT lines of dialogue. For me it just doesn't work - I wanted specific answers which we simply don't get - for one thing not all OT lines of dialogue which referance the past are 'vague', some are quite specific and are either contradicted by the PT or not dealt with at all. It smacks of someone trying to shy away from giving us the full and proper backstory to the OT because he he didn't have the writing chops for it and knew he had to compensate for this with visual effects and action set pieces featuring same. And being a stubborn sort he refused to hand the writing over to anyone more capable, who perhaps would have written scripts that didn't play host to scenes like the trip through the planet core in Episode I and the droid factory video game of Episode II.

*Droid assembled a list of all the lines in the OT that refer to the prequel era in direct or loose ways in another thread - "OWEN, BERU and the BABY watch the twin suns set"


"Leia, do you remember your mother? Your real mother"

Without seeing the prequels we have every reason to believe that Luke is asking about Leia's biological mother. Now that we have the prequels this hasn't changed.

"just a little bit, she died when I was very young......just images really, feelings"

Heres a bit of vagueness now. Without seeing the prequels I thought "very young" was when she was about 5 or older. I was willing to believe, unlike Imperial Monarche, that the mother of Luke and Leia gave up Luke to someone elses care, perhaps not knowing who for safety sake. Now having seen the prequels Leia is making an understatement. "Very young" is now at childbirth. Why wouldn't Leia say "she died right after she gave birth to me" if she was aware of this? Is she just going on what she was told? Surely not. Because why wouldn't she clarify to Luke "this is just what I was told, I don't remember her firsthand". The only other option is that she was lied to outright and thinks her "real" mother is Bail Organa's wife who, for all we know, does die when Leia is only "very young" - with this interpretation Leia, none the wiser, thinks she is answering Luke's question about her real mother. But others are convinced that no, she is referring to Padme and is unknowingly tapping into her force powers by being able to recall "images" and "feelings" of Padme either from when she is still in Padme's womb or at the moment when she was born.

"she was very beautiful, kind..but sad"

Is this also just 'what she was told' about Padme? Again, if thats the case, she should have made clear to Luke that she only had second-hand information. And I think she would have done, so I rule this out. Is she thinking of Bail Organa's wife? Perhaps. Or thirdly is this a further demonstration of Leia's force abilities by being able to have memories from the very very beginning of her existance. I guess you could go with any of these last two options. However is Lucas deliberately leaving this open to question or does he have one particular answer in mind? I'd really like to know.

Some might say that its a good thing that there is something to discuss here and that it isn't totally clear-cut. Yeah maybe. But I'm also bearing in mind that realistically Padme shouldn't have died at all - there was no need for her to die (not to mention that her death prompted Vaders embarrassing "NNNNOOOOOOOO!!!!!") and therefore all doubt could have been avoided. She could have died off screen between III and IV, on Alderaan when Leia was young leaving Leia in the hands of Bail Organa and his wife. But for her to die, for no biological reason, at childbirth was a truly stupid decision. A mother doesn't just decide to die on her children, A. And B "obi-wan there is still good in him, I know it"...what was the point of this line? First of all why doesn't she stay alive in the hopes of reaching this "good" person she still thinks is there? And secondly - bit of a tangent here - Obi-wan seems to have ignored her dying statement. At no point in the original trilogy does he appear to advocate anything but the literal death of Darth Vader - correct me if I'm wrong. Luke says "I can't kill my own father" to which Obi-wan responds "then the emperor has already won, you were our only hope". Its luke who feels the good in Vader, not Obi-wan who thinks that he is "more machine now than man, twisted and evil" so Padmes last words to Obi-wan clearly fell on deaf ears. He isn't given any notion of turning Vader back to the good side - thats Luke's own initiative. That Luke manages to do it was a bonus for Obi-wan and Yoda but one that they really hadn't banked on. And a further tangent, which already has a thread if I'm not mistaken - who taught Vader to become 'one' with the force? Its like the Christianity that all the fundies believe in - no matter how good a jedi you were, if you didn't know how to become one with the force tough s**t - no afterlife for you - but even with a life of terrible evils you can get into the spirit club if you repent at the last second.....some justice


Another gem "your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough but your uncle wouldn't allow it - he felt you'd follow old Obi-wan on some damned fool idealistic crusade like your father did"

OK. Prior to Obi-wan delivering Luke to the Lars family in the closing minute of ROTS we have no meeting between Obi-wan and Owen Lars. Actually if memory serves he only actually speaks to Beru in that scene and we don't even hear any dialogue. When Anakin meets Owen Lars in AOTC Obi-wan is never mentioned and the only onscreen exchange of dialogue doesn't go beyond formal introductions. So, based on AOTC we have nothing to indicate Owen Lars knows Obi-wan exists nor do they have any interraction in ROTS. And now suddenly by Episode IV Owen has an opinion on Obi-wan - and a bad one at that. How did this come about? Apparently Lucas felt it wasn't worth the bother to explain - perhaps because it would have cut into the running time he had set aside for the pivotal droid factory scene on which the whole prequel trilogy hinged!! Funny because I really thought there was something there to judge by all those pieces of dialogue in ANH - "that old wizards just a crazy old man" and "thats your uncle talking" etc. And yet the prequels gave us nothing whatsoever on the Anakin/Owen Lars/Obi-wan situation.

Also, when did Anakin ever say he wanted his lightsaber to be given to Luke? Anakin only finds out he's having a child near the beginning of ROTS and is left assuming that this child is dead by the end of the same film. Now somewhere in between you'd think there might have been a scene in which Anakin says something to the effect of "I want my son to have this lightsaber". I didn't see it and I took no toilet breaks at the cinema. So as it stands we are left to assume that he said it offscreen (ah yes that great cop-out Lucas has made an art of) or are forced to reinterpret this as another one of Obi-wan's "certain point of view" exaggerations. This creates a picture of Obi-wan as a conniving deceiver, even stringing in a dig at Owen Lars "my uncle was going to deny me this cool lightsaber?? Bast*rd!!!" in order to nudge Luke onto a collision course with Vader, a tactic reminiscent of Palpatine's in ROTS.

Of all the scenes in the OT it was those between Obi-wan and Luke and Luke and his uncle which were the most revealing about the past which the prequels are supposed to cover. And yet it was these OT scenes which received the least clarification in the prequels. I'm really not convinced that winking at the originals with single lines of dialogue such as "i have a bad feeling about this" and "so uncivilised" was enough to tie the trilogies together. Lucas needed to think it through a lot more than he apparently did.

darko666
06-12-2005, 12:35 PM
who taught Vader to become 'one' with the force? Its like the Christianity that all the fundies believe in - no matter how good a jedi you were, if you didn't know how to become one with the force tough s**t - no afterlife for you - but even with a life of terrible evils you can get into the spirit club if you repent at the last second.....some justice.

yeah, that doesn't make sense. Vader does nothing but evil things in the galaxy, but as soon as he realizes his faults and is at peace with himself, he becomes one with the force and we get to see him with his buddy and their green little friend. but with GL introducing the notion that to achieve this ability, you have to learn it. ok, makes sense, but how does Vader achieve this in no less than, what, an hour maybe. i find that hard to believe. maybe GL should go back and "redo" that scene again and have Anakin fade in and out because he still doesn't know how to be one with the force. and while still on this subject, why have Anakin appear as what Hayden portrayed? thats when he was arrogant, mean and distrustful. i mean, he was actually the most at peace and nice right before he died. the original ghost of Anakin was perfect. but as the matter stands, the fact that we see them as ghost at the end of ROTJ states that any jedi or sith, becomes one with the force, but with the PT they have to learn it. GL creates another cunudrum.

VaderhitsJarjar
06-12-2005, 01:22 PM
Honestly - Tatooine was probably the safest place for Luke to grow up.

That was probably the one place Vader would never return - He is not a complete robot and would still have memories - even if repressed - it would probably be too much for him to remember why he was what he was.

He has his childhood memories, memories of his mother - running in the streets with greedo's cousin -

I can see him now giving orders from the desert when the flood of emotions hit him.

Stormtrooper #445677s - Sir we've combed the desert and no...akk hack..rrr..nnggg.hjkk........"

Stormtrooper # 445679 - Lord Vader we lost the tracks but I thi..kk..aakk...aak...grt...kikk ng.............

Stormtrooper #445679a (Pops) - Lord Vader we don't have enough supplies for you to keep kilkk..nhhgg..stop it...stohhhkk..hkk...lord mary...nhhgg.......

Lord Vader - I must koo Hawww get those plans kooo hawwww they are the wave of the future koo hawww.....wave of the future kwooo hawww wave of the future kooo hawww... wave of the future...koo hawww....wave of the future...kooo hawwave of the future....koohawww..

Stormstooper # 445688 Medic... Medic!!!! ackk unggg erk........

2-1B
06-12-2005, 01:31 PM
Not really, Obi and Yoda were already ghosts so they obviously brought him back to appear to his boy. Hayden did not potray Anakin as mean in Episode 3 . . . well, not until his turn to the darkside. lol

He was very kind and sweet when talking with Padme about their upcoming family. He wanted that baby, he welcomed it, so there he is at the end of the saga looking back at Luke.

One of the things I love about ROTS is that Anakin did know about Padme's pregnancy . . . it makes his fall that much more sad for me. :(

I think Obi-Wan recognized Artoo from the beginning. Saying "I don't seem to remember ever owning a droid" in NO WAY means "I don't remember R2-D2."

I don't think Owen recognizes Threepio. I doubt Anakin programmed him with that stupid personality in the first place so it's not very unique.

Imperial Monarche
06-12-2005, 02:42 PM
Heres a bit of vagueness now. Without seeing the prequels I thought "very young" was when she was about 5 or older. I was willing to believe, unlike Imperial Monarche, that the mother of Luke and Leia gave up Luke to someone elses care, perhaps not knowing who for safety sake. Now having seen the prequels Leia is making an understatement. "Very young" is now at childbirth. Why wouldn't Leia say "she died right after she gave birth to me" if she was aware of this she clarify to Luke "this is just what I was told, I don't remember her firsthand".

You've missed my point. I was trying to say that maybe she thinks she really remembers on what her adoptive parents told her and thinks they are her real memories, not fabrications of her own mind based on information she was told.

I've come up with another inconsistancy. How does the pilot of Tantive IV in ROTS become an Imperial Officer 23 years later, and get younger...

princethomas
06-12-2005, 03:19 PM
The only line that I accept as a problem is "She died when I was very young." Images feelings etc. All that works fine for me.

Your father wanted you to have this is clearly something Obi is saying to Luke to get him excited about being a Jedi. Certainly, "the good man who was Lukes father" would have wanted him to have it. This isnt a cop out. Did you ever think that we d get a scene that said, hey give this to my kid when hes old enough? That doesnt make sense even before the prequels.

My guess is, that Owen and Obi had quite a few conversations over the next 20 years after ROTS. I dont think anyone questions that do they? Im sure thats where there attitudes toward each other come from.

2-1B
06-13-2005, 01:40 AM
I've come up with another inconsistancy. How does the pilot of Tantive IV in ROTS become an Imperial Officer 23 years later, and get younger...

And furthermore, how did that Imperial Officer manage to slip in and out of Jango Fett's old costume while moving down that hallway on Bespin ? lol


Your father wanted you to have this is clearly something Obi is saying to Luke to get him excited about being a Jedi. Certainly, "the good man who was Lukes father" would have wanted him to have it. This isnt a cop out. Did you ever think that we d get a scene that said, hey give this to my kid when hes old enough? That doesnt make sense even before the prequels.

My guess is, that Owen and Obi had quite a few conversations over the next 20 years after ROTS. I dont think anyone questions that do they? Im sure thats where there attitudes toward each other come from.

Agreed 100%. Even as a kid, when I had just the OT and knowledge that Vader used to be Anakin Skywalker, I had a hard time picturing any kind of conversation like that between Anakin and Obi-Wan about giving Luke the lightsaber. Hell, I wasn't even sure if Anakin knew that Luke was on the way so there was plenty of doubt in my mind that Ben wasn't taking liberties with such claims. :)

Oh yeah, and of course Ben and Owen have contact over the next 20 years. Luke knows of Ben, about where he lives, and he even recognizes Ben when he scares off those Tusken Raiders. :)

Devo
06-13-2005, 01:49 PM
And furthermore, how did that Imperial Officer manage to slip in and out of Jango Fett's old costume while moving down that hallway on Bespin ? lol



Agreed 100%. Even as a kid, when I had just the OT and knowledge that Vader used to be Anakin Skywalker, I had a hard time picturing any kind of conversation like that between Anakin and Obi-Wan about giving Luke the lightsaber. Hell, I wasn't even sure if Anakin knew that Luke was on the way so there was plenty of doubt in my mind that Ben wasn't taking liberties with such claims. :)

Oh yeah, and of course Ben and Owen have contact over the next 20 years. Luke knows of Ben, about where he lives, and he even recognizes Ben when he scares off those Tusken Raiders. :)

No doubt Ben and Owen do get to know eachother between episode III and IV...keyword though - offscreen. To me that word is now synonymous with 'cop-out'. Other important little details like the development of the Obi-wan/Anakin 'friendship' were also offscreen. There isn't any hint of a friendship till the beginning of Episode III, the same film in which they are to become enemies - mistake. What else was offscreen? Oh yes all but the beginning and end of the clone wars!! where all this bonding and brotherhood presumably would have happened. What about the cartoon you say? Well the cartoon is all well and good but A) the films themselves are 90% animation as it is, did we need a cartoon (as good as it admittedly is)? B) the clone wars would have been the ideal arena in which to show aforementioned bonding and brotherhood and C) the very idea of character development being left to be dealt with in 3 and 12 minute animated shorts is a truly ridiculous one when the "live action" films themselves - the real Star Wars canon - were crying out for it.

El Chuxter
06-13-2005, 02:06 PM
IIRC, C-3PO only gives his name to Luke. Owen only gets the "fluent in six million forms of communication" line and hears that this protocol droid (a very common model) first worked on binary load lifters. Having no reason to doubt that, he doesn't even think twice about it, especially since this robot's a different color.

He does mention that Threepio must be programmed for protocol and etiquette, so he obviously remembers C-3PO from his stay on the farm. (He just doesn't realize he's looking at the same droid.)

He might've thought it was a coincidence that the Jawas had a blue astromech droid, if he even remembered the details of R2's 2-second visit at Shmi's funeral. But he did buy "the red one."

Then again, we don't know how long it's been since the Jawas stopped by. They might have a couple of years' worth of droids, and both protocol droids and astromechs are seen to be quite common.

However, as soon as Luke says that the Artoo claims to be the property of Obi-Wan Kenobi, Owen changes his tune. He probably realizes that the moment he's tried to protect Luke from his entire life has come, and we'll never know exactly what he was thinking after Luke set out to find R2-D2.

Obi-Wan never says he owns a droid. In a galaxy where droids are referred to as property, he makes a point to call Artoo his "little friend." Obi-Wan has seen C-3PO with his gold coverings, so I'm sure he knows exactly what's up when he sees the two droids with Luke.

2-1B
06-14-2005, 12:37 AM
Other important little details like the development of the Obi-wan/Anakin 'friendship' were also offscreen. There isn't any hint of a friendship till the beginning of Episode III

I disagree because I saw several pieces of a foundation to their friendship in AOTC. :)


What about the cartoon you say?

Well . . . I wouldn't say that to you. I didn't find the cartoon to be all that great. :)

Kidhuman
06-14-2005, 08:45 AM
If Anakin wasnt a friend, he never would have went to Geonosis to save Obi-Wan, sure he was torn, and Padme made the easy decision for him to go, but if he didnt want to he never would have went.

JediTricks
06-14-2005, 07:24 PM
As a motivation for going to Geonosis, Anakin could be loyal to Obi-Wan without being his friend, "friendship" is not a necessity in the equation.

Kidhuman
06-14-2005, 11:55 PM
If ya dont like someone, you dont go. The council afterall told him to stay put in hiding.

2-1B
06-15-2005, 12:34 AM
Plus Padme said "he's your friend, your mentor" and Ani snapped to attention with "he's like my father."

:cry:

princethomas
06-15-2005, 06:48 AM
Anakin certainly could have stayed on Tatooine. The counsel told him to stay. So clearly he cares for Obi-Wan. I dont really buy into the whole Off Screen=Cop Out thing. I understand why someone might feel that way, but also, there are certain things we know happen off screen. It is made clear to us that there is some time between AOTC and ROTS, and that Anakin and Obi Wan will be fighting in the Clone Wars together. So one of the first things we notice in ROTS is just how friendly Obi and Ani have become. From their behavior, we realize how cloes they have become over the course of the War. There is nothing wrong with this. Its fits perfectly.

2-1B
06-15-2005, 01:22 PM
Also PrinceThomas, the opening crawl refers to them as two Jedi Knights which shows that Anakin has been Knighted and is no longer a Padawan. :)

And no, I didn't need some goofy Clone Wars cartoon to show me that. :crazed:

The progression from their contentious master-student relationship is a natural one into their friendship in ROTS and the fact that they're friendship is able to break down in ROTS, well you can look back to AOTC and see that while there was a bond, it wasn't concrete. :(

El Chuxter
06-15-2005, 01:41 PM
Also PrinceThomas, the opening crawl refers to them as two Jedi Knights which shows that Anakin has been Knighted and is no longer a Padawan. :)

And no, I didn't need some goofy Clone Wars cartoon to show me that. :crazed:

But you did need to read Jedi Trial, right? :p

2-1B
06-16-2005, 12:58 AM
Of course I did, Chux !

(*hopes Chux doesn't ask for a book report . . . since I didn't read it*) lol

To clarify, I don't mean that the WHOLE Clone Wars is goofy because I do like much of it but I just didn't want to be asked if I used the cartoon to fill in that missing info. :)

princethomas
06-16-2005, 07:08 AM
The Clone Wars stuff was pretty cool. But it is not necessary to watch to "get" whats happening in ROTS. Its just extra at best and really its not even that much extra. It doesnt really add anything to ROTS. Just kind of fun to watch.

princethomas
06-27-2005, 10:23 PM
Heres one: How about, " I havent gone by the name of Obi-Wan since oh before you were born."

I dont know what I would like. Yoda could have said "Henceforth you shall be known as Ben. Now lets go watch those kids be born."

DiminutiveJedi
06-29-2005, 09:46 PM
And a further tangent, which already has a thread if I'm not mistaken - who taught Vader to become 'one' with the force? Its like the Christianity that all the fundies believe in - no matter how good a jedi you were, if you didn't know how to become one with the force tough s**t - no afterlife for you - but even with a life of terrible evils you can get into the spirit club if you repent at the last second.....some justice.
This one's so easy it makes me think you already knew the answer.
Where to begin?
Palpatine says Darth Plagueis could not keep himself from dying, only his "loved ones."
Qui-Gon tells Yoda that he has found a way to retain his consiousness after death, but that no Sith lord can do it, as it is a state achieved through compassion, not greed.
Later, Yoda tells Obi-Wan that he thinks he can improve on Qui-Gon's methods and actually retain a physical form.
Anakin then must have learned the same trick from Palpatine (who was quite powerful and wise, albeit evil), but couldn't actually take advantage of it, until he was redeemed by bringing balance to the Force.


I've come up with another inconsistancy. How does the pilot of Tantive IV in ROTS become an Imperial Officer 23 years later, and get younger...
They are not the same individual. Antillies is as common a last name as Jones. Wedge Antillies, anyone?
Besides, the guy on the Tantive IV in ANH is clearly older than the one in ROTS.

spang2005
07-01-2005, 06:09 PM
So Obi-Wan tells Luke he "Has gone by the name of Obi-Wan since, oh before you were born," but he is still called Obi-Wan AS Luke is born. I was hoping in EP 3 that he would be called Ben, possibly by one of the clones. It would have been cool if he named, say Cody for example, then Cody could have called him Ben. That would have been cool.

My bad, I didnt see that Princethomas beat me to this.

jlw
07-02-2005, 01:35 AM
"Capt. Antilles" in ROTS is meant to be the same "Capt. Antilles" in ANH. Lucasfilm even said that they hired an actor who looked similar to the one in ANH. However, to me, the one in ROTS looks older than the actor in ANH. Also, in ROTS it would have been cooler if he had been referred to as "Sgt. Antilles" or some lesser rank. Kinda like in "Batman Begins" the man who becomes "Commissioner Gordan" is only "Sgt. Gordan." To think you serve in the military for 20yrs and no promotion!

Also, all the talk of Ben recognizing the droids is moot. The whole backstory of the droids was not written back in 1977. So, none of the dialogue or "looks" from the actor(s) mean anything.

The whole Leia thing with her mother is the biggest inconsistency to me; and I don't buy the whole "died when I was very young" = died at birth. Also, its an inconsistency to me that, based on the PT, Padme dies at birth and Leia (who has not been trained in the ways of the Force) can through the Force "feel" her mother, and Luke the Jedi Knight cannot. To me it just doesn't quite gel with the OT. I think it would have been better if they would have had Padme live on Alderaan with Bail and his wife.

Mad Slanted Powers
07-02-2005, 05:16 PM
I don't have a problem with Leia remembering her mother. If people in the real world claim to remember past lives or being in the womb, why can't a Force sensitive child in a fantasy film have "images" of her mother? Now, as to why she remembers and Luke doesn't, perhaps it was as someone said that Luke didn't have his eyes open. I'm more inclined to believe that Leia had more natural ability in the emotional, empathic side of the Force. This is why she excelled as a politician and a leader in the Rebel Alliance. Luke excelled in piloting and combat. Like father like son, like mother like daughter. I will agree that the OT made it seem like she was older when Padmé died, but I would say not older than 2. I was pretty sentient by the time I was 5, so I had some pretty solid memories of my mom at that point, certainly more than just images. One problem remains if Padmé doesn't die in ROTS. They would have had to convincingly fake her death or else Vader would have gone looking for her.

The part about Ben not going by Obi-Wan since before Luke was born bothered me as well, but the last time I saw ROTS, I noticed that after the twins are born, I don't think he was ever called Obi-Wan. When Yoda told him to remain so he could tell him about Qui-Gon, I think he just said Master Kenobi. I could be mistaken. Still, I think maybe they should have done more with an Obi/Owen/Anakin relationship. I don't really have a problem with them hiding Luke on Tatooine. Vader wouldn't want to go back to a place that causes him so much pain. In the ANH Radio Drama, Vader speaks of Tatooine with utter disdain.

jlw
07-02-2005, 11:07 PM
I just don't see how a person can accept the whole Leia remembers her mother from birth, through "feelings" or what-not; and then have a problem with Obi-Wan not being called "Ben" in ROTS.

O.k. "Ben" is referred to as "Obi-Wan" before Luke is born; then when he goes to Tatooine to take the baby to the Lars, he then assumes the first name of "Ben." Its the obvious assumption, and is definitely implied. To me, its like when Anakin & Padme travel to Naboo in Ep. 2. Mace tells them they will have to travel as refugees. Do you think they used their real names? No. So, who knows when Obi-Wan checks in to the space port on Tatooine or what not, he then assumes the name "Ben" Kenobi. Just because he says that he hasn't gone by the name "Obi-Wan" since before Luke was born, doesn't mean that immediately after Luke is born he can never again be called "Obi-Wan." Its like in the Bible when God told Jacob, "You will no longer be called Jacob, but Israel." It doesn't mean he wasn't called "Jacob" anytime after that, because he is called "Jacob" many times after that. It means he will not only be called Jacob.

That people can make an issue of the "Obi-Wan" vs "Ben" issue just blows my mind. Sometimes people try to make words have only one "absolute" meaning. (Only a Sith deals in absolutes). And it is the same with the whole "Darth Vader HELPED the Empire hunt down the Jedi" thing; and people start throwing a fit because we didn't actually see Anakin going "Jedi hunting" except in the Temple. Well, its like saying Hitler killed thousands of Jews in WW2. O.k., Hitler himself did not kill thousands of Jews, but he was instrumental in their deaths; so the statement is still true.

And I guess the only real issue I have with the Leia remembering Padme thing is that she said, "she died when I was real young." O.K., to me "real young" does not mean at birth. Saying a person is a baby, and saying a person is "real young" are not the same. To me, a "baby" is always younger than a person who is "real young". "Real young" to me is a toddler 2 to 3 yrs. old. That way their would have been more of a logical explanation as to why Luke has no memory of his mother, whether his eyes were opened or not (which I think is a very weak point).

2-1B
07-03-2005, 12:44 AM
George should have cut the scene together better but I believe it is Leia at her mom's bedside when Padme dies and then Leia starts screaming.

Not exactly what ROTJ led me to believe . . .

princethomas
07-03-2005, 05:55 PM
I only brought up the Ben thing for fun. Clearly he adopted the name Ben when he got to Tatooine. Which is essentially "When" Luke was born. He has ben Old Been for about 20 years. And the Obi-Wan part of his life was a life he lead before Luke was born. So I think its a natural thing to say. Probably he talked to Qui-Gon after Luke was born and probably Q called him Obi-Wan. But the point is. That period of his life is long over.

And again with the hiding Luke in an obvious place. The Prequels had nothing to do with this being a problem it was a problem as soon as Empire Strikes Back came out. Ben tells Luke that his father knew Owen and knew about Tatooine in ANH. So as soon as we find out Vader is Lukes father. We immediately say, wait a minute, why would Obi hide Luke in a place that his father is clearly familiar with. I accept that this is a bit of a problem, but its clearly always been a problem since long before the prequels came out.

Mad Slanted Powers
07-03-2005, 06:25 PM
Another thing about Leia's abilities. In ROTJ, Vader easily reads Luke's mind to find out Leia is his sister. In ANH, he can't get a simple location for the rebels from Leia. With no Jedi training, it seems she can surpress thoughts far better than Luke was able to. This might also explain why she can recall something from birth while Luke cannot.

princethomas
07-03-2005, 09:34 PM
Posty, thats a good point. I always felt that the more Luke learned to use the force, the more he gave off signals to Vader. Luke tells Leia that he must leave because Vader can sense that he is there. He doesnt say, Leia, you have to leave too. Leia has abilities but doesnt understand what they are so they just feel like images or feelings.

Plus, she lived with people who knew her mother and spoke of her mother. Luke lived with people who didnt know padme, but knew Anakin from what Shmi had told them. So Padme probably didnt come up much.

Mad Slanted Powers
07-03-2005, 09:58 PM
Posty, thats a good point. I always felt that the more Luke learned to use the force, the more he gave off signals to Vader. Luke tells Leia that he must leave because Vader can sense that he is there. He doesnt say, Leia, you have to leave too. Leia has abilities but doesnt understand what they are so they just feel like images or feelings.

Plus, she lived with people who knew her mother and spoke of her mother. Luke lived with people who didnt know padme, but knew Anakin from what Shmi had told them. So Padme probably didnt come up much.
Owen and Beru did get to meet Anakin and Padmé, however briefly. They just chose not to tell him anything. I'm guessing Padmé had a good chat with the family while Anakin was out looking for his mother.

princethomas
07-03-2005, 10:55 PM
I know they met her, but they didnt know her. They knew more of Anakin because of what Shmi told them I bet, plus whatever Obi told them when he gave Luke over. My guess is just that most of Luke's parental questions focused primarily around his Father. O and B had really nothing to say about Anakin, but really less to say about Padme. Bail seemed to know Padme pretty well, so my guess is Leia got to know her mother pretty well through stories. Which would in turn aid her in her force sensing. I would guess.

Do you think Padme and Clieg and Owen and Beru talked much while Ani was out hunting Sand People. I get the impression that that was one of those really awkward evenings. Sitting around watching TV, trying to find conversation.

Padme- Hows the weather been?

Clieg-Pretty dry.

Padme-cool

Owen-So hows that Republic thing working out?

Padme-Oh fine, uh, I guess. Well um I dont know.

Beru-So Padme, in this Republic, you are allowed to eat your meals without worrying about serving all the Men first?


etc..

JediTricks
07-03-2005, 11:41 PM
And again with the hiding Luke in an obvious place. The Prequels had nothing to do with this being a problem it was a problem as soon as Empire Strikes Back came out. Ben tells Luke that his father knew Owen and knew about Tatooine in ANH. So as soon as we find out Vader is Lukes father. We immediately say, wait a minute, why would Obi hide Luke in a place that his father is clearly familiar with. I accept that this is a bit of a problem, but its clearly always been a problem since long before the prequels came out.Only the prequels that say Owen Lars lived on Tatooine before Luke was born, the OT didn't say one way or the other.

Kidhuman
07-04-2005, 12:02 AM
And that Anakin knew where he lived as well JT. ANd that 3PO and R2 were there

princethomas
07-04-2005, 12:50 AM
Only the prequels that say Owen Lars lived on Tatooine before Luke was born, the OT didn't say one way or the other.


No, the OT says. "He (your Uncle Owen) didnt hold with your father's ideals. He (Owen) thought he (Anakin) should have stayed here (Tatooine) and not gotten involved.

If Im not mistaken. This indicates that at some point Owen and Anakin were together on Tatooine. Am I mistaken?
Just seems like this problem existed as soon as we found out that Vader was Luke's father.

JediTricks
07-04-2005, 01:35 AM
That's true, I had forgotten about that ANH line because Obi-Wan's comments came with that "from a certain point of view" stigma once I had put everything together.

princethomas
07-04-2005, 12:28 PM
Yeah I think that we have kind of run amok with the Obiwan big fat liar thing. If you look at his ANH conversation its really just the part about Vader and his father being separate people. Which is kind of a point of view issue. Hes basically told Luke the most accurate explanation he could without telling him that Vader and his father are the same. The only lie, really is the your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough bit. Which is really just his way of saying. Yoda and I and all the Jedi wanted you to have it.

JediTricks
07-05-2005, 08:33 PM
Well, I wasn't thinking of it as a lie, more like because Obi-Wan is somewhat fluid with his comments about Anakin, that the past events he spoke of could have possibly taken place on a different planet, so the "stayed here" part never registered to me as Tatooine specifically.

princethomas
07-05-2005, 11:24 PM
I really always figured that Anakin and Owen were brothers for the longest time. I dont think there is anything in the OT that necesarily refutes that. And "Uncle" is the only thing that would indicate it is true. But thats not very concrete either. Either way, its seems clear that Anakin must have some relationship with Owen and Tatooine even in the OT. Which makes you wonder why theyd pick that place to hide Luke. If you look at it that way, the PT might actually help reduce this problem by showing us that Anakin didnt give a rats butt about Owen and the Homestead. Owen may have heard quite a bit about Anakin from Shmi and Obiwan, but Anakin probably has little memory or care about that place. Other than his mother is buried there. But that too, is I think a help in this case. While it could be taken as a sign of him wanting to go back there, its also can be taken as something he'd never want to go near also.


What Id really like to know is what George had in mind, and when he had it in mind.

If you pretend A New Hope is the only movie. I think its reasonable to assume that Owen and Anakin were actually brothers and lived on Tatooine. Owen the stay at home farmer type and Anakin the Adventurous Luke type. And somehow Obi-Wan got involved and Anakin followed him into the universe, much the way Luke does. I dont think there is anything that there is anything in the movie that indicates Vader was Luke's father. But I may be wrong about that. Im wondering when Vader became Luke's father.

Heres a website that someone pointed me to.

http://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/scripts.htm

it has many early drafts of scripts and stuff.

2-1B
07-06-2005, 12:51 AM
Hey princethomas, I can't believe I didn't think of this until right now so let me know what you think:

In AOTC, the last time Anakin was at his mom's grave, he "promised" her that he wouldn't fail again . . . but then in the next movie he DOES "fail" by not keeping Padme from dying, so in his failure I highly doubt he would want to go back to mom's grave. lol lol lol

princethomas
07-06-2005, 06:59 AM
Caesar. I agree. I think he is devastated by all that has happened. And I dont think he could stand to go anywhere near her grave now. Thats why in A New Hope. When he realizes "she must have hidden the plans in the escape pod" he sends a detachment down to the planet. even tells the one officer "see to it personally" Finding these stolen plans is Vader's one job. Youd think that hed go down there himself to take care of it. But he doesnt. I dont think he can stand to.

jlw
07-07-2005, 09:44 PM
The funny thing is that really in the OT there is no inconsistency. There really is no "reason" why Vader did not go down to Tatooine to search for the plans; except maybe the fact that it was "grunt" work. The same is true in TESB there really is no inside "reason" why Vader blocks Boba Fett from shooting Chewie; because at the times of those films there were no indepth background stories i.e. the Prequel Trilogy. Now that there is a PT, we all go back to the OT and say well that particular look from Obi-Wan to Luke could mean this or mean that; or the reason Vader didn't go down to Tatooine is this or that. But in reality, there is no reason behind any of it.

princethomas
07-07-2005, 11:47 PM
Thats not totally true though. While a particular glance or look or expression or whatever may not have meant something at the time, it can mean something now. Not just because we want it to. I m quite certain that GL has a copy of the original movies. And my guess is that he watched them when writing the prequels. So its just as likely that George saw that glance or expression or whatever and crafted the PT around it. Maybe he say Vader slap Boba's hand away and thought. Hey, thats cool what can I make of that.

The point is though. That Obi-wan and Yoda thought that Tatooine was a safe place to hide Luke. Which means they knew of some reason that Vader would never go there. And that is clear from The OT without ever seeing the PT. This is not a problem that the PT created. It existed before that. But the PT does give us some new stuff to chew on that might fix that problem. Thats why we bring in the stuff from the PT. What Caesar said about Shmi's grave is right on. Its very believable that he would never want to go near there. And since he didnt know he had a kid. He had no reason to go.