PDA

View Full Version : darth obi-wan?



darth fingerz
06-12-2005, 03:10 PM
one thing that I have been thinking about recently has been mentioned only briefly in a post I wondered whether anyone has any thoughts on the matter?

it is at the beginning of the film when dooku and anakin are fighting and obi wan has been knocked down for the first time and runs up some steps cutting some silver battle droids with his light saber as he goes...... Palpatine cheers at this, even though to keep up his false identity he has no need?

so what spurs the sith lord to cheer obi-wan?

one thought that keeps occuring to me is was obi-wan at any point considered by palpatine as a sith apprentice?

he did kill darth maul after all!
and to kill a sith you have to go a little darker
that is why luke stops short of killing vader in the ot,
and why yoda stops short of killing dooku etc

maybe palpatine had plans for obi-wan but when it was anakin who felled dooku he saw no need for obi?

if you remember, prior to episode ones ending palpatine had no knowledge of anakin! and he did manage to turn dooku to the darkside who was qui gon's master who inturn was obi's,

so couldnt obi have been shortlisted?:D

JimJamBonds
06-12-2005, 03:40 PM
one thing that I have been thinking about recently has been mentioned only briefly in a post I wondered whether anyone has any thoughts on the matter?

it is at the beginning of the film when dooku and anakin are fighting and obi wan has been knocked down for the first time and runs up some steps cutting some silver battle droids with his light saber as he goes...... Palpatine cheers at this, even though to keep up his false identity he has no need?

so what spurs the sith lord to cheer obi-wan?

one thought that keeps occuring to me is was obi-wan at any point considered by palpatine as a sith apprentice?

he did kill darth maul after all!
and to kill a sith you have to go a little darker
that is why luke stops short of killing vader in the ot,
and why yoda stops short of killing dooku etc

maybe palpatine had plans for obi-wan but when it was anakin who felled dooku he saw no need for obi?

if you remember, prior to episode ones ending palpatine had no knowledge of anakin! and he did manage to turn dooku to the darkside who was qui gon's master who inturn was obi's,

so couldnt obi have been shortlisted?:D

Also in AOTC Dooku suggests they take over and take care of Sids. Was that Dooku's idea or Sid's suggestion to try to tempt him? In the ROTS novel Dooku says that Obi Wan is "like his grandson", I liked that line that would have been interesting had that been worked in the film somehow.

As for what happened in ROTS I think its pretty clear that Obber's is in the way when it comes to Anakin. Palps suggestion of leaving Obi Wan was an attempt of getting the 'good influece' out of the way.

Jim Jam

VaderhitsJarjar
06-12-2005, 03:42 PM
Actually, he does exclaim to Annakin "we've been watching you for some time."
or something like that...

anyway - I was telling folks in 99 that Palpy had something to do with Annie's Birth.

Why do we get a glimps of Arorra Sing (Sp)
Was she hired to watch Anni, possible manipulate situations in his childhood, etc...even setting up the demise of his mother?

Palpy gets delight from all destruction and manipulation just like some folks get delight from watching dog fighting and wrastling'

But interesting this ides is...

Obi Wan would have been a good choice if Annakin had been delegged sooner.

Though as I said before - I believe in some soft offscreen moments Palpy asks Dooku not to kill Anakin and go easy on him.

Slicker
06-12-2005, 04:39 PM
Why do we get a glimps of Arorra Sing (Sp)
Was she hired to watch Anni, possible manipulate situations in his childhood, etc...even setting up the demise of his mother?We get a glimpse of Aurra Sing because she's a frigging' background character that got over played by fan boys. Why do we get a glimpse of Tessek in Jabba's Palace? Could it be that he's Leia's man servant?:eek::rolleyes:

As for Obi-Wan going over to the Sith, I don't think that Palp's had any designs for Obi knowing that he had no evil in him. He could sense Anakin's dark intentions and ever since the Tusken encounter Palp's knew that Anakin would be his next apprentice.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
06-12-2005, 06:54 PM
I thought that Palpatine was just excited at the action. The only person he was considering for making into a Sith was Anakin.

When are people going to get over Aurra Sing? :rolleyes:

JediTricks
06-12-2005, 11:02 PM
I also found it odd that Palpatine gets caught up in Obi-Wan's little fight upstairs, it's a reasonable reaction from a normal guy, but as Palpatine is a controlled character who is always hiding his "other nature" I found it too difficult to believe that he just got swept up in the cool excitement, and I didn't buy the possibility that Palpatine was putting on a show to suggest as much.

As for considering Obi-Wan a viable Sith candidate, while it does seem he and other Jedi dap into their hate to win battles in the prequels, I don't think Kenobi was ever considered a Sith candidate by Palpatine. The Dooku angle in Ep 2 I thought was just Dooku messing with Obi-Wan's mind, using the truth to screw with his head, but I suppose he could have been testing the waters there - my gut feeling is nay on that one though, more likely bringing up the idea of Qui-Gon in that conversation was Dooku's way of trying to play both sides of the Force against Obi-Wan.

Bacta Beast
06-12-2005, 11:13 PM
God you guys!!! :stupid: He wasn't cheering Obi-Wan on! He was getting exasperated because Dooku hadn't killed Obi-Wan yet (wich was part of the plan). The novel makes it very clear that Palpatine at that point has no interest in Obi-Wan other than using his demise to cause Anakin to come emotionally unhinged. Dooku however definately wanted to "give him another chance" to see things his way and join them. But Palpatine was very clear in his response that he didn't appreciate his judgment being questioned by his apprentice. You see, Dooku had a prejudice against Anakin because of his mechanical arm. He believed that a more refined warrior would have endured the lose and learned to fight with one hand. :crazed: He felt the hand made him an abomination. While he did regard Obi-Wan with some respect. When the dual began Obi-Wan and Anakin both used a subterfuge of applying less effective saber techniques to lure Dooku into a false sense of security. Dooku of course misread their ruse and mistakenly believed he had time to toy wit the Jedi a bit, instead of just taking out Obi-Wan straight away as planned. Palpatine was getting impatient in that little part there, waiting for Dooku to carry out the plan. :D

JediTricks
06-13-2005, 01:10 AM
God you guys!!! :stupid: He wasn't cheering Obi-Wan on! He was getting exasperated because Dooku hadn't killed Obi-Wan yet (wich was part of the plan). The novel makes it very clear that Palpatine at that point has no interest in Obi-Wan other than using his demise to cause Anakin to come emotionally unhinged. Dooku however definately wanted to "give him another chance" to see things his way and join them. But Palpatine was very clear in his response that he didn't appreciate his judgment being questioned by his apprentice. You see, Dooku had a prejudice against Anakin because of his mechanical arm. He believed that a more refined warrior would have endured the lose and learned to fight with one hand. :crazed: He felt the hand made him an abomination. While he did regard Obi-Wan with some respect. When the dual began Obi-Wan and Anakin both used a subterfuge of applying less effective saber techniques to lure Dooku into a false sense of security. Dooku of course misread their ruse and mistakenly believed he had time to toy wit the Jedi a bit, instead of just taking out Obi-Wan straight away as planned. Palpatine was getting impatient in that little part there, waiting for Dooku to carry out the plan. :D
Is that a joke, did you make that stuff up under the guise of it being from the novel? I honestly cannot tell.

I also can't accept use of the novel to defend or explain the movie, it's an after-the-fact story written by another author who had permission to basically strike out on his own in any way that didn't conflict the movie's canon. Using the novel is tantamount to saying the movie is sloppily written and requires an outside, after-the-fact source to salvage its errs.

2-1B
06-13-2005, 01:24 AM
I thought it was just a thinly veiled last attempt to "trick" the audience into believing that Palpatine is a good guy, even though he's obviously under the hood in TPM and AOTC . . .

Kidhuman
06-13-2005, 01:31 AM
Palps likes a good fight, and he cant root for Tyson anymore, so he cheered Obi-Wan

JEDIMICHAELS25
06-13-2005, 01:55 AM
yo kid human, you got a response from me to your trade offer you wanted from my haves and wants list. please reply back now if you can i would like to make this deal offically underway. ty much joe michaels.

basschick
06-13-2005, 03:52 AM
that scene where the jedis are there to save palpatine was where i first thought "uh oh".

palpatine was pretending to be no more than an old man, captured by a deadly enemy, kidnapped as political leverage, or more... surrounded by a battle on the ship, death in the offing, he should have looked scared and tremulous, not eager and excited like he was watching wrestling on cable.

Captain Spoon
06-13-2005, 08:02 AM
I think that the only reason Palp looked so happy was that as Ani and Dooku were going at it he could sense the anger and hatred Anakin had build up. So he knew he one one step closer to turning him to the darkside. Also what was with the story about the Sith lord tat could influence the midiclorians to create life? Was this a hint that Palpatine "knocked up" Shmi Skywalker? I mean if you were going to attempt to create an apprentice taht would help you destroy the Jedi and rule the Galaxy why use a slave from a junkheap like Tatooine as the Mom. I understand that he would be out of sensing range for the Jedi but c'mon.

basschick
06-13-2005, 08:57 AM
the thing is, on the INSIDE he could be laughing with glee, but on the outside, the manipulator he was in ep2 would not have let it show.


I think that the only reason Palp looked so happy was that as Ani and Dooku were going at it he could sense the anger and hatred Anakin had build up. So he knew he one one step closer to turning him to the darkside. Also what was with the story about the Sith lord tat could influence the midiclorians to create life? Was this a hint that Palpatine "knocked up" Shmi Skywalker? I mean if you were going to attempt to create an apprentice taht would help you destroy the Jedi and rule the Galaxy why use a slave from a junkheap like Tatooine as the Mom. I understand that he would be out of sensing range for the Jedi but c'mon.

darth fingerz
06-13-2005, 02:06 PM
some cool thoughts, I too think that the novel is not counted, and believe too that palpatine is far to composed to just yell for that simple saber against robot action as he would surely have been having hysterics by time anakin kicked dooku's backside!

I'm glad someone noticed about obi and dooku's offer in episode2, one thing about dooku wanting obi to join him for his own reasons.... a sith lord does this when they want to supplant the sith lord, I dont think that dooku and obi-wan would have a chance of doing that? and I think dooku would know they wouldnt!

the person that said that palpatine said he had been watching anakin, it wasnt he said "we will watch your career with great interest"

one thing that adds to my theory about obi-wan is that in episode one he speaks of jar jar as an inferior being and looks with distain, he says "why do i get the feeling we've picked up another useless lifeform" about anakin, he says this with a great deal of conviction and actually looks a bit peed off!! surely this is a case of intolerance to other lifeforms, a trait shown by the sith and enforced in the empire?

obviously I'm not saying obi-wan is evil or that he was a definite selection for the sith, he obviously made the correct choices and became the great jedi we have seen, but I'm asking whether anyone can see a pattern and a possible sub motivation, and whether anyone can think of any other momenst that can support this?:)

El Chuxter
06-13-2005, 02:20 PM
I think the line in TPM was meant to show that Obi-Wan matured over the course of the PT, no matter how clumsy it is. Because the series is only about Anakin if you take it as a whole. Seen as two separate trilogies, they're about Obi-Wan and Luke.

JT, the novel references earlier were not jokes. And I agree that ROTS' greatest shortcoming is the lack of real explanation in several instances. The novel should add to and elaborate on the film, not explain what the San Hill is going on.

Dooku was led to believe that Obi-Wan would be a Sith Apprentice. As to how stupid Dooku was to believe he wouldn't be replaced, that's up in the air. I guess Palpatine trusted that both Tyrannus and Vader would think that the need for secrecy and the limit to two Sith Lords at any time was obsolete. That's the only possible explanation I can come up with, because neither one of them was as dumb as Maul by any stretch of the imagination.

And I definitely think Palpatine created Anakin. We know very little of Shmi's background prior to TPM. There's a line that Watto won her and Anakin from Gardulla the Hutt, and some EU source (I think either the TPM or AOTC Visual Dictionary) states that she was kidnapped by pirates at a young age and sold into slavery. She's not stupid, but there's little to suggest she'd have any education whatsoever. And so she says, "I can't explain what happened." That doesn't mean immaculate conception necessarily. Sidious or one of his agents could've had her strapped up to all sorts of machines or whatever; she just can't explain it. And maybe she tried at one point and got tired of people looking at her like she was an idiot, so she gave up trying.

darth fingerz
06-13-2005, 03:05 PM
surely though obi wan has a bit of darkside rage in him because at the end of episode three he shouts angrily at anakin "you where the chosen one" then after the deed is done and the anakin lies burning, rather than put him out of his misery, he turns with callous look (I'm mean you could jus picture him spitting on anakin cause that is what kind of scen this is) then casually picks up the lightsaber and walks off! he looks remiscant of a thug who has jus beat/stamped on someone in a bar fight and then walks off sneering and happy in there own might! obviously he calms down and mellows ie pats c3po on the shoulder, but surely if he had been manipulated more then he could have turned?

the only thing that separates anakin and obi-wan is that anakin has desire, which obi-wan does not indulge in thus abiding by the jedi code! perhaps the jedi lineage was manipulated down a line for some time? it cant be a coincidence that dooku and vader the two prominant sith lords of that time both come from the same jedi line?

maybe sidious had planned for another to follow, qui-gon obviously died, perhaps it was hoped that obi-wan would follow, and also anakin was watched aswell, sidous obviously would have eventually given up on obi-wan by time ep3 came about, but would perhaps still have been excited to see a bit of anger coming out of him!

stillakid
06-13-2005, 05:01 PM
When are people going to get over Aurra Sing? :rolleyes:

Never! Check out that bod! :smoker: :D

Mad Slanted Powers
06-13-2005, 08:09 PM
surely though obi wan has a bit of darkside rage in him because at the end of episode three he shouts angrily at anakin "you where the chosen one" then after the deed is done and the anakin lies burning, rather than put him out of his misery, he turns with callous look (I'm mean you could jus picture him spitting on anakin cause that is what kind of scen this is) then casually picks up the lightsaber and walks off! he looks remiscant of a thug who has jus beat/stamped on someone in a bar fight and then walks off sneering and happy in there own might! obviously he calms down and mellows ie pats c3po on the shoulder, but surely if he had been manipulated more then he could have turned?

I don't see it that way at all. It seemed more like Obi-Wan was close to tears as he said these things. He told Yoda he couldn't kill Anakin. He was like a brother to him, and he tells this to Anakin. However, he had to do what needed to be done. He chopped up Anakin in self-defense. He refrained from finishing him off, perhaps because that would have been too cold-blooded. Besides, he figured he was as good as dead, and left so he didn't have to watch him die in agony.


Is that a joke, did you make that stuff up under the guise of it being from the novel? I honestly cannot tell. That was indeed from the novel. It certainly explained more of what was going on, but I don't think that was necessary to undertand the basics of what was going on. It was a trap for the Jedi to try and get the dark side of Anakin to come out, and Dooku was betrayed by Sidious.

Bacta Beast
06-13-2005, 10:40 PM
one thing that adds to my theory about obi-wan is that in episode one he speaks of jar jar as an inferior being and looks with distain, he says "why do i get the feeling we've picked up another useless lifeform" about anakin, he says this with a great deal of conviction and actually looks a bit peed off!! surely this is a case of intolerance to other lifeforms, a trait shown by the sith and enforced in the empire?


Actually he said "pathetic" not "useless". While that my sound like fan-boy nitpicking, changing that one word would speak volumes about Obi. The reason Dooku (in the novel) is interested in Obi as opposed to Anakin isn't because he senses any darkness in Obi, it's because of his respect for Qui-Gon, and Obi-Wan's skill. And his disdain for Anakin's mech. arm.

Bacta Beast
06-13-2005, 10:49 PM
Is that a joke, did you make that stuff up under the guise of it being from the novel? I honestly cannot tell.
I also can't accept use of the novel to defend or explain the movie, it's an after-the-fact story written by another author who had permission to basically strike out on his own in any way that didn't conflict the movie's canon. Using the novel is tantamount to saying the movie is sloppily written and requires an outside, after-the-fact source to salvage its errs.

Even if I had made it up, it's certainly as plausible as anyone elses theory.
However, no I did not make it up. I'm just reading the novel right now, and having just gone through the sequence this thread addresses, I was eager to share what I had read.
In addition to that, I simply didn't think that Palpatine was cheering anyone on in that scene, even at the first view. It honestly looks to me like he is disgusted that Dooku has not yet struck done Obi-Wan and is getting impatient, it's clear to he that he wants Obi removed so the focus will be on Anakin. I had already assumed that much before reading the book.
In this instance I don't feel that the novel and the movie are at odds (unlike others spots). And I don't think that scene needed to be slavaged, it all made sense to me from day one.

JediTricks
06-14-2005, 07:43 PM
that scene where the jedis are there to save palpatine was where i first thought "uh oh".

palpatine was pretending to be no more than an old man, captured by a deadly enemy, kidnapped as political leverage, or more... surrounded by a battle on the ship, death in the offing, he should have looked scared and tremulous, not eager and excited like he was watching wrestling on cable.AHAHAHA! Watching wrestling, that's a good one, it does feel that way. And the guy is just sitting in this giant room surrounded by exactly nobody, so he gets to watch his wrestling alone and work on picking his lock (which thankfully for the plot, he has no intention of attempting).



I think that the only reason Palp looked so happy was that as Ani and Dooku were going at it he could sense the anger and hatred Anakin had build up. So he knew he one one step closer to turning him to the darkside. Except that Palps looks at Obi-Wan's action when he does this glee sound, not Anakin's.



JT, the novel references earlier were not jokes. Oh!

And so she says, "I can't explain what happened." That doesn't mean immaculate conception necessarily. This is true, and in the movie she says "there was no father" yet the screenplay for TPM has her continue that sentence with ", that I know of."



Even if I had made it up, it's certainly as plausible as anyone elses theory. Ok, but my point wasn't that it wasn't plausible, my point was that if the movie leaves it so open-ended that it REQUIRES us the audience to scrounge for theories, it has not succeeded in telling that part of the story, and I am confident that the movie indeed fails in this manner.

stillakid
06-14-2005, 09:58 PM
Ok, but my point wasn't that it wasn't plausible, my point was that if the movie leaves it so open-ended that it REQUIRES us the audience to scrounge for theories, it has not succeeded in telling that part of the story, and I am confident that the movie indeed fails in this manner.
Roger that. :D

Bacta Beast
06-15-2005, 10:26 PM
Ok, but my point wasn't that it wasn't plausible, my point was that if the movie leaves it so open-ended that it REQUIRES us the audience to scrounge for theories, it has not succeeded in telling that part of the story, and I am confident that the movie indeed fails in this manner.

Understood, but I also made the point that I understood it when I saw it. I didn't think it needed any explaining. I didn't have to look for a way to tie it up, I just presented the book version because I thought it would help others to understand it. But for me it was never in question.

Darth Spectre
06-19-2005, 02:22 AM
Palpatine never had any plans for Obi-Wan except his death to help push Anakin closer to the Dark Side. He was clearly laying the foundation for turning Anakin for a long long time. Dooku might have had ideas about turning Obi-Wan, though Dooku seemed to like training anyone or anything, see Grievous & Asajj Ventress....LOL

Psi-Clon Yung
06-20-2005, 11:12 AM
Dooku might have had ideas about turning Obi-Wan...

I agree, I think Dooku wanted to "complete" Obi-Wan's training so that together they could overthrow Palpy. Otherwise it makes no sense for Dooku to tell Obi-Wan about Palpy's plot to overthrow the republic.

Conveniently for Palpy, the Jedi counsil does not believe Dooku is telling the truth.

As far as a Obi-Wan's dark side is concerned I think he succesfully overcomes it when he kills Darth Maul.

He gives into a bit of anger when he sees Maul polish off Qui-Gon, but the dark side in him is short lived when he finds himself holding on for dear life in the shaft. In order to kill Maul at that point, he clears his mind and performs a miraculous Jedi force jump. At this point he has pretty much lost all connections with the dark side.

He is never really tempted at any point by Dooku to turn to the dark side. He pretty much blows him off as a liar, and shows his intentions to not join him.

He is never angry in Episode III, just heart broken that his "brother" would betray him and join the dark side.

Obi-Wan is a bit arrogant at times, but definitely not Sith material. I don't think Palpy ever considered Obi-Wan anything but a threat to his reign.