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stillakid
06-12-2005, 04:31 PM
Disclaimer: nitpicking :rolleyes:


So I'm sitting around a couple of days ago obsessing about Star Wars :rolleyes: and coming with new and more interesting ways to hate it :rolleyes: when something occurs to me.

When I first saw ROTS, that bit at the end started nagging at me. We've got Shouldbeignitingintoflames-akin standing on his little floaty 'bot and Obi Wan standing on the rocks a few feet away. Obi says something like: "Don't do it, Anakin, I've got the high ground."

Unevencharacter-akin, of course (being evil and all now), ignores Obi's warning and jumps Olympic-style over Obi's head anyway. To which Obi casually sticks his energy sword out and manages to slice off three of Ihateyoufornoreason-akin's appendages.


Okay...I'll buy that on a couple of levels. Obi's words were meant to say superficially that Loser-kin shouldn't jump because Obi is in a better place geographically to cut his legs off. It also works as George slides in a thematic message that Obi's goodness will always win out over the icky badness of evil.


Great...let's rewind about 4 hours or so in the saga back to the moment with a younger Obi is trapped hanging by his fingernails with a dark robed fellow staring menacingly from above. Only in that instance, Obi not only makes a similar leap to that of Superman-akin, but he manages to survive! Not a scratch as Maul stands there like the village idiot as Obi first LOOKS obviously over to Qui Gonn's lightsaber, then gets that :mad: look on his face, then leaps superhero-like through the air, pulling a double-sommersault, igniting his blade, and bisects the bad guy.

So what do the children take from this case of mixed messages? Do they jump when they are at the disadvantage, like Obi did in TPM? Or do they heed Obi's words and not jump as he advises in ROTS?

:confused:

darko666
06-12-2005, 04:46 PM
that scene in TPM will always be a bad one. no one in their right mind would just stand and watch someone flip over them, without trying to attack. but GL had to do away with the villian and what better way to have him die in a pointless way. yet Obi-Wan succesfly cuts off 3 limbs when Anakin leaps over him. so in theory, Maul had the higher ground, so he should have won the fight. yet Anakin didn't win when he had the lower ground, but Obi-Wan did. Obi is one lucky s.o.b.

JimJamBonds
06-12-2005, 04:53 PM
Stilla you don't need to rewind 4 hours more like 4 min. Anakin jumps from the droid he is on and in the process flips over Obi Wan landing on the edge of the platform. Obi could have sliced and diced then and there but it didn't happen.

Jim Jam

JON9000
06-12-2005, 04:59 PM
that crossed my mind as well. The biggest differences I see are

1. Obi-wan had surprise (no saber) on his side against an overconfident, rather unexperienced Maul.

2. Obi-wan was completely prepared for Anakin's attack- no element of surprise here.

Slicker
06-12-2005, 05:36 PM
Yes, Maul did indeed have the high ground but he never expected Obi to jump over his head and cleeve him in half. Whereas Obi KNEW Anakin would try a stupid stunt like that so he was expecting it and therefore acted accordingly.

The Overlord Returns
06-12-2005, 06:14 PM
Stillakid is right about the poor planning of the TPM scene, no doubt about it. Maul, we are to believe, was ill prepared because he was cocky, and arrogant. This scene is also meant to show how talented a young jedi Obi Wan was. However, it was poorly implemented, much like most of TPM.

As for the robot scene, they are on lava, and obi wan doesn't have highground, and he's not standing on a solid rock footing. When he says what he says to anakin, he does indeed COMPLETELY have the highground, and is warning anakin not to make a move. This warning is illustrated only a few moments earlier when yoda flees the fight with Sidious. Same basic situation: Sidious has the highground, and yoda is in an unwinnable (is that even a word?) position. Yoda, being the calm experienced master we all know, does not make Anakins mistake.

Perhaps Obiwan knew how lucky he had been to defeat Maul, and that it was a one in a million thing. Obiwan displays quite a bit of luck throughout the saga, which makes his wry comment about there being "no such thing" as it all the more interesting.

Still, we all know Maul's death was a poor one... nothing new there.

chewie
06-12-2005, 09:56 PM
While they were over the lava I don't see why either didn't bother to force push the other into it. Seeing as how a few Jedi fight scenes in this movie had them blowing giant force push blasts at each other, it should be an obvious thing to use those powers in situations where there is no room to avoid them.

As for Obi-Wan winning the high ground battle and Maul losing it, I suppose it just means that Obi-Wan being the good guy has the "high ground" morally no matter what position he finds himself in battle. Though that does not come across on screen.

Rocketboy
06-12-2005, 10:23 PM
Unlike Darth Maul, Obi-Wan knew better than to just friggin' stand there like a moron as someone leaps over your head to attack you.

JediTricks
06-12-2005, 11:28 PM
How original Stilla! ;) I've been saying this for weeks now, such as in this thread:
http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=28447

where you'll find several mentions by me of this, such as:
http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?p=402794#post402794
http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?p=403179#post403179

BTW, thanks for unintentionally lumping me in as a "nitpicker". :p

Seriously though, I think this is a symptom of the Prequel Trilogy's unimaginative approach to lightsaber dueling, there's generally no emotion or creativity involved, it's all just a carefully-choreographed ballet, but ultimately these guys are SO good and SO single-minded in how they do this that the battle has to be ended by a slip on a banana or some equally-forced piece of writing.



that scene in TPM will always be a bad one. no one in their right mind would just stand and watch someone flip over them, without trying to attack. If you look in TPM's battle again, you'll notice that Maul and Qui-Gon do this several times during that final saber fight, why didn't Qui-Gon jump down with his saber leading the way after pimp-slapping Maul off the catwalk thus skewering him from above, why did Qui-Gon take an unnecessarily long swing over his head and wait for Maul to put a saber through his gut? The script makes it even more confusing as when Maul enters that smaller chamber and Qui-Gon starts meditating, Maul is supposed to be all tired out and singed from the fight.

Of course, I also wonder, when on Mustafar why did Obi-Wan and Anakin swing their sabers around at each other for a moment at top speed while not hitting anything at all like electric baton-twirlers at the cheerleading world series on ESPN2?



Stilla you don't need to rewind 4 hours more like 4 min. Anakin jumps from the droid he is on and in the process flips over Obi Wan landing on the edge of the platform. Obi could have sliced and diced then and there but it didn't happen. That's true, Anakin was doubly distracted by dealing with the lava and falling vane and small landing spot that was the droid. I hadn't thought of that before.

Of course, why did those 2 lava droids stop what they were doing and conveniently start hanging out together at high speed so the heroes could fight each other? And why did Obi-Wan and Anakin stop fighting to have a quick chit-chat before continuing on with this battle?


that crossed my mind as well. The biggest differences I see are

1. Obi-wan had surprise (no saber) on his side against an overconfident, rather unexperienced Maul. True, but Maul could have cut it down in flight none the less.


2. Obi-wan was completely prepared for Anakin's attack- no element of surprise here. I brought up my response to this before, sure Obi-Wan was prepared for the attack, but Anakin was aware of this as well since Obi-Wan *just* told him so, so it's not like it caught Ani off-guard.



This warning is illustrated only a few moments earlier when yoda flees the fight with Sidious. Same basic situation: Sidious has the highground, and yoda is in an unwinnable (is that even a word?) position. Yoda, being the calm experienced master we all know, does not make Anakins mistake. If you are correct, then perhaps Lucas should have had Yoda explain this with a simple sentence, that scene didn't connect with the Anakin vs Obi-Wan scene later to me, and I was never clear on why Yoda just gives up the fight against Palpatine (and I still don't entirely buy this "higher ground" thing, these are Jedi who have super reflexes and jumping abilities and such, the Senate is a HUGE room to maneuver just as Anakin could have floated away a little and then jumped to the rock where he would now have the higher ground, Luke is able to get away from Vader when he's thrown in to the carbon freeze pit after all, and he's only half-trained at the time).



While they were over the lava I don't see why either didn't bother to force push the other into it. Seeing as how a few Jedi fight scenes in this movie had them blowing giant force push blasts at each other, it should be an obvious thing to use those powers in situations where there is no room to avoid them. Or how about Force-pushing the lava robots out from under them? That would have been really cool!

JimJamBonds
06-13-2005, 01:08 AM
Seriously though, I think this is a symptom of the Prequel Trilogy's unimaginative approach to lightsaber dueling, there's generally no emotion or creativity involved, it's all just a carefully-choreographed ballet, but ultimately these guys are SO good and SO single-minded in how they do this that the battle has to be ended by a slip on a banana or some equally-forced piece of writing.

So you prefer the 6 move-spin-a-couple-times duels of the PT? Remember Uncle George said we'd see fighting when the Jedi were in their prime which is oppositve of what we saw in the PT. If things are even sometimes that banana slip can make the difference between winning and losing.


Of course, I also wonder, when on Mustafar why did Obi-Wan and Anakin swing their sabers around at each other for a moment at top speed while not hitting anything at all like electric baton-twirlers at the cheerleading world series on ESPN2?

This is one of my favorite parts of the film. I think Obi Wan and Anakin are just pi**ing in the wind with their powers. Its similar to the Yoda vs. Dooku duel, each is showing what he can do although as Dooku points out that knowledge of the force will not determine the outcome of the fight.

Jim Jam

2-1B
06-13-2005, 01:52 AM
I love that, too, Jim Jammy, it's a great scene of a former Master and Apprentice who are now pretty even with each other. Familiarity plays a huge factor in this duel, that's why Obi-Wan warns Anakin not to try what he already knows will be attempted. :)

JediTricks
06-13-2005, 01:58 AM
So you prefer the 6 move-spin-a-couple-times duels of the PT? Remember Uncle George said we'd see fighting when the Jedi were in their prime which is oppositve of what we saw in the PT. If things are even sometimes that banana slip can make the difference between winning and losing.I'm assuming that first sentence you mean the OT, not PT, yes? If so, absolutely I prefer the saber dueling of the OT, there's emotional context there, they goad each other and talk and put emotion into their moves, the moves are simple and direct instead of flashy and wasteful, look at something like Seven Samurai, their moves are elegant in their simplicity, they do what they came to do and nothing more because this isn't ballet, it's life or death - spinning and hopping around like a maniac only increases your risks of getting stabbed by a more patient enemy while simultaneously letting you waste all of your energy, it's the classic battle of substance vs style.

As for what Uncle George said, so what? He says a lot of things, he said last year that the prequels were never supposed to exist, that envisioned 3 movies then 6 movies then 9 movies then 6 movies and now back to 3.


This is one of my favorite parts of the film. I think Obi Wan and Anakin are just pi**ing in the wind with their powers. Its similar to the Yoda vs. Dooku duel, each is showing what he can do although as Dooku points out that knowledge of the force will not determine the outcome of the fight. Why would that be a good thing though? They both expell more energy with less results, they both know each other VERY well so it's not like they're learning anything new, it's like they think their own lives are luxuries that can be expended infinitely for no other reason than to be flashy. Or perhaps they're doing the Jedi version of that kid who windmills his arms through the air and if he hits you, "it's your own fault". ;)

Kidhuman
06-13-2005, 02:16 AM
Tis the same reason why Yoda ran from Palps, Palps had higher ground. Yoda knew he couldnt win, so he bolted and took defeat. Anakin was prideful, arrogant, thought he could do it, but he was wrong. Always listen to a master he should.

JediTricks
06-13-2005, 02:52 AM
Tis the same reason why Yoda ran from Palps, Palps had higher ground. Yoda knew he couldnt win, so he bolted and took defeat. Anakin was prideful, arrogant, thought he could do it, but he was wrong. Always listen to a master he should.
Yeah, TOR mentioned that in post 6, I responded to that in post 9.

stillakid
06-13-2005, 08:46 AM
How original Stilla! ;) I've been saying this for weeks now, such as in this thread:
http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=28447

where you'll find several mentions by me of this, such as:
http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?p=402794#post402794
http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?p=403179#post403179

BTW, thanks for unintentionally lumping me in as a "nitpicker". :p


Many apologies. I obviously missed those, and I will say that I found it odd that no one else had mentioned it. Seems I was just slow on the uptake. :nerv:

In regard to the "nitpicker" comment, I figured that the true Star Wars fans here would find the thread cause to lash out in a personal attack against me for bringing up another (and silly) topic to discuss. So I prelabelled the thread for them. :ermm:

JimJamBonds
06-13-2005, 11:12 AM
I'm assuming that first sentence you mean the OT, not PT, yes? If so, absolutely I prefer the saber dueling of the OT, there's emotional context there, they goad each other and talk and put emotion into their moves, the moves are simple and direct instead of flashy and wasteful, look at something like Seven Samurai, their moves are elegant in their simplicity, they do what they came to do and nothing more because this isn't ballet, it's life or death - spinning and hopping around like a maniac only increases your risks of getting stabbed by a more patient enemy while simultaneously letting you waste all of your energy, it's the classic battle of substance vs style.

Yes you are correct I meant OT and not PT. There is goading in the OT but then again all the duelists knows the other and had has some sort of issue with the other. Vader was salty towards Obi Wan for what had happened 20 years eariler. Vader was trying to lure Luke to the dark side in ESB and in Jedi we have that same issues plus the Emperor adding his two cents to the matter as well. What connection does Qui Gon and Maul have??? Thats right nothing! I think there is plenty of goading between Dooku and Obi Wan/Anakin/Yoda with plenty of comments to get under the other guys skin. The same thing goes for ROTS lots of smart ***ed comments to honk the other guy off.


Why would that be a good thing though? They both expell more energy with less results, they both know each other VERY well so it's not like they're learning anything new, it's like they think their own lives are luxuries that can be expended infinitely for no other reason than to be flashy. Or perhaps they're doing the Jedi version of that kid who windmills his arms through the air and if he hits you, "it's your own fault". ;)

Have you ever seen two animals fight in nature? There is a certain amount of 'strutting and posturing' towards the other animal that serves no real purpose other then to show who's got the bigger ****. And personally I've wanted to see what a full fledged saber fight was like since I was a little kid seeing Star Wars for the first time. So to use a current example you'd rather see the 38 yr old washed up can't finish a fight Mike Tyson rather then the 20 yr old Tyson who was the baddest man on the planet destroying anyone unfortunate enough to have been put in his way correct?

Jim Jam

Bacta Beast
06-13-2005, 12:30 PM
MODERATOR'S EDIT-No Flaming.

stillakid
06-13-2005, 01:06 PM
MODERATOR'S EDIT-No flaming, flaming responses.
let's both post nice folks.

stillakid
06-13-2005, 01:25 PM
I'm assuming that first sentence you mean the OT, not PT, yes? If so, absolutely I prefer the saber dueling of the OT, there's emotional context there, they goad each other and talk and put emotion into their moves,

For me, I think that the overriding "quality" of a duel rests not with what happens during the fight, but rather, what the underlying emotions and reasons are that lead up to it.

The ANH duel has a great deal of history to it, even though as new audiences, we didn't know exactly what the details were. "You should not have come back"..."Your powers are weak, old man" tell us everything and nothing about the history of these two adversaries. There is a bitter past which is being settled right here and right now.

The ESB duel has the audience pained as they watch Luke enter into a battle they know he can't win. We get the distinct sense that Vader is playing with his victim and that he isn't unleashing his full fury. An emotional ride for sure. Luke goes in thinking that he is physically ready to challenge Vader and learns otherwise. But as if Luke didn't think it could get any worse, Vader pulls out the emotional trump card and sends Luke tumbling, literally and figuratively.

ROTJ brings us a new improved Luke. We've seen him in action and hope he's ready for a rematch. He thinks he's ready this time, emotionally and physically, and he does hold his own for the most part...but that emotional mind game gets the best of him once again and it takes him to the brink of the dark side.

TPM is an alley brawl. Two "good guys" fighting a pit bull. No long standing conflict, no real connection for the audience to two of them...and for new audiences, no real connection to any of them. Any of them could die and the story could continue on as if nothing happened, which is precisely what does occur. Had Obi perished, Ani would have been trained the same way. Had Maul died alone, Ani would still have been trained the same way. There was no up or downside to any of the various potential outcomes. Ani was still going to be trained by someone...and if both Jedi died, then a loose canon Ani would have likely wound up on the bad side anyway.

AOTC between Ani, Obi, and Dooku is similar to TPM. Cold and emotionless. The characters have no history between them. Nothing truly important leads up to this battle so the audience has little to invest except "Whoop whoop!" adrenaline.

ROTS purports to have history leading up to the final duel, but it is so steeped in nonsense and illogic that the reasons it happens detract from the event itself.

We know why Luke faces Darth Vader at every turn and it always makes complete sense. But the ROTS battle is a blender full of conflicting excuses to get Anakin all Smurfed up.

Kidhuman
06-13-2005, 01:34 PM
You said smurfed up...hehehehe :beard:

stillakid
06-13-2005, 01:36 PM
You said smurfed up...hehehehe :beard:

Yeah, it was Smurfy to say. I felt pretty smurfy afterwards too. :smoker:

darko666
06-13-2005, 01:51 PM
out of all the duels in both trilogys, the OT duels have the most depth and emotion than any of the other ones combined. one of my fav. TPM duel, while cool to watch and entertaining, is just a regular fight. nothing really builds up to it. Maul appears and they all go at it, with no history to back the fight up. but if GL would have at least kept Maul in the whole trilogy the fight in AOTC and ROTS could have been more emotional or at least have some meaning behind it. by GL creating new Sith for each movie, he took away any character development or attachment to surrounding characters. the fights would have more depth to them, if Maul was the main sith for the PT.
GL blew it with that one.

simply put:

TPM: Maul kills Qui-Gon(same as in the movie)

AOTC: Maul(who has become stronger and more focused in the way of the Sith) fights Anakin and Obi-Wan. Beating both of them(Obi-Wan isn't focused, because he is thinking of his former master being killed by Maul. And Anakin is cocky and impatient and is bested by Maul.)

ROTS: Maul fights Anakin for the last time, and with so much hatred for learning that Maul killed Qui-Gon, Anakin just loses it and kills him. And Palps, unsettled to see his apprentice die, is pleased to see another arrive.

Qui-Gon would be the focal point of the fights, and the emotion Obi-Wan and Anakin have for him would be their failure and succes for the fights in all the movies. to me, this makes sense, but i'm just a fan.

2-1B
06-13-2005, 02:36 PM
I'd rather watch my grandparents have sex than watch Obi-Wan and Vader "fight" in ANH. ;)

JimJamBonds
06-13-2005, 04:02 PM
I'd rather watch my grandparents have sex than watch Obi-Wan and Vader "fight" in ANH. ;)

You Sir are worse then Stallin!

Sentinel18725
06-13-2005, 10:54 PM
In my opinion, this quote was meant to address familiarity between the two of them. They have trained together, fought together, and would know the weaknesses. I believe that this was a direct mention of training failures that Anakin had under OB's tutelage. It is generally true in combat that the person with the high ground is the person who has more advantage.

CaptainSolo1138
06-14-2005, 10:35 AM
I'd rather watch my grandparents have sex than watch Obi-Wan and Vader "fight" in ANH. ;)
OMG! :sur: I think I just peed a little. That's hilarious!


In my opinion, this quote was meant to address familiarity between the two of them. They have trained together, fought together, and would know the weaknesses. I believe that this was a direct mention of training failures that Anakin had under OB's tutelage. It is generally true in combat that the person with the high ground is the person who has more advantage.
Yeah, I like that reasoning. That's kind of like Ani's "From my point of view...." line. Even though they aren't exactly the best of friends at this point in time, there is still a sense of familiarity between the two of them that offers itself to lines like this.

JediTricks
06-14-2005, 08:19 PM
There is goading in the OT but then again all the duelists knows the other and had has some sort of issue with the other. Vader was salty towards Obi Wan for what had happened 20 years eariler. Vader was trying to lure Luke to the dark side in ESB and in Jedi we have that same issues plus the Emperor adding his two cents to the matter as well. What connection does Qui Gon and Maul have??? Thats right nothing!That's *wrong* actually. Maul has a burning passion, he hates the Jedi severely and is seeking revenge, and Qui-Gon is curious about who this guy is and if he's really a Sith, and plus they both are completing a duel left unfinished in the Tatooine desert, that's their warrior's bond right there - it's not as strong as Ben & Vader, but it's not nothing.


I think there is plenty of goading between Dooku and Obi Wan/Anakin/Yoda with plenty of comments to get under the other guys skin. The same thing goes for ROTS lots of smart ***ed comments to honk the other guy off. Not during the fights though, mainly they'd do the talking, then fight, then stop to talk, maybe fight some more and then that'd be it, the fighting was emotionless and quiet.


Have you ever seen two animals fight in nature? There is a certain amount of 'strutting and posturing' towards the other animal that serves no real purpose other then to show who's got the bigger ****. Man is a thinking animal though, and the Jedi are supposed to be incredibly wise and practiced fighters, not unlike the samurai. Waste is waste, whatever the reason, spinning around like a top holding a lightsaber is brash and a little silly, something an immature novice would do, not a seasoned and cunning warrior - if that warrior is forced to fight, his goal is to kill and survive in as short a time as possible so he can move on to take care of other business, supposedly samurai duels would sometimes be decided with a single move after waiting for everything to fall into place.


So to use a current example you'd rather see the 38 yr old washed up can't finish a fight Mike Tyson rather then the 20 yr old Tyson who was the baddest man on the planet destroying anyone unfortunate enough to have been put in his way correct? Just the opposite actually, I'm no boxing expert but the 20-year-old Tyson put down his opponents with lightning speed, whenever he got into the drawn-out game he'd get beaten. He didn't toy with his opponents, he played to his strengths and got the job done before his weaknesses could be exploited, in his heyday there weren't a lot of epic Tyson fights.



For me, I think that the overriding "quality" of a duel rests not with what happens during the fight, but rather, what the underlying emotions and reasons are that lead up to it. That's what Kershner says when talking about movie fighting on the ESB commentary, I didn't transcribe it but he basically said that it's the set-up to the fight that makes the audience invested in the fight and feel something afterwards.



I'd rather watch my grandparents have sex than watch Obi-Wan and Vader "fight" in ANH. ;) "Flash over substance" is the message I got out of that. You prefer the prequels style of saber duelling, would you have been as happy if it was just Ray Park on a bluescreen spinning around in those same motions? To me, he may as well, is so choreographed that to me it's not even a duel much of the time, just a martial arts expo set to a John Williams score.

stillakid
06-14-2005, 10:50 PM
That's what Kershner says when talking about movie fighting on the ESB commentary, I didn't transcribe it but he basically said that it's the set-up to the fight that makes the audience invested in the fight and feel something afterwards. .
Gee, maybe I should be a director. :D

2-1B
06-15-2005, 01:54 AM
Actually JT, all kidding aside, I probably like Kenobi vs. Vader round I (ROTS) the best because I get some flash AND the substance of their dialogue. :)

JediTricks
06-15-2005, 09:24 PM
The reason I don't like that one is because the flash and substance act like they're mutually exclusive there.

Bacta Beast
06-15-2005, 11:15 PM
I understand why they say there wasn't enough build up to the fight between Maul, Qui-Gon, & Obi-Wan, but I still like it best. Not for flash, but for skill. It just seems to me to be more about human skill than special effects like the Yoda vs. Dooku fight. I felt the Anakin vs. Dooku rd.1 was a big let down. I don't get off on the completely CG stuff so the Yoda, Palpatine didn't move me to much either. And I didn't like Anakin vs. Obi-Wan as much as I thought I would. :ermm: I would have to order my favorites as 1)Obi-Wan vs. Maul (after Maul kills Qui-Gon you're more invested), 2) Luke vs. Vader Round 1
3) Luke vs. Vader rd.2

princethomas
06-16-2005, 11:43 PM
This is a pretty good topic. There are a couple of things. First. I used to find myself "defending" the OT saber fights in light of the "new cool" PT saber fights. Now, it would seem that the PT fights are under attack. First of all. The Maul fight is the first time we have ever seen anyone fight with a lightsaber that really wanted to kill someone. The OT fights were mostly ceremonius (if thats a word) Yes, somebody was going to die in ANH, but it was still more about ceremony than action. The Maul fight is a really a lot like TPM in general. A pretty good intro to the way things are in the PT.

Real quick. I dont know who brought up Tyson. And then someone else says they dont know Boxing much but.... I do know a little something. Im not sure what the Tyson analogy was, but Tyson DID knock the crap out of people very quickly. But there were some opponents that could drag it out longer. And he beat the crap out of them too. There were just a couple of people that could do that. Anyway, there was NO way to beat Tyson when he was young.


Heres what I think about the high ground line. And let me first say that Im not actually saying that GL intended it this way, but its how I take it.
Obi went there to kill Anakin. And Anakin knows it. It reminded me for just a second of Gettysburg. (the movie not the actual battle. Im no civil war expert) General Longstreet tells Lee that the Union forces have the High Ground and that its not a good place to fight. He says if we leave, "they have to follow us"
So what I was thinking was, that its interesting for Obi to say he has the high ground and its over. Anakin didnt come to kill Obi. Ani can just say, "whatever man. Im going to float on down the river here" and Obi HAS to follow him.
Obi Wan knows this and he has to get Anakin to fight here and now on this ground. He knows Anakin's weaknesses. So I think Obi says this to Goad Anakin into doing something foolish. "Dont try it" is something he says because he knows Anakin will react foolishly.

Again. I dont claim that this was GL's plan. But thats how I see it.
-T

JediTricks
06-17-2005, 03:08 AM
the fight between Maul, Qui-Gon, & Obi-Wan... It just seems to me to be more about human skill than special effects like the Yoda vs. Dooku fight.I will agree that it was quite the skilled performance and superior to the CGI saber battles, and as an abstract I do admire and appreciate that 3-way saber battle scene, but for me it became exactly that: an abstract, not unlike the musical number in ROTJ. These 3 chaps fight so cinematically and choreographed that it seems like a well-practiced ballet in the middle of a Star Wars movie, and thus takes me out of that movie a little.


The Maul fight is the first time we have ever seen anyone fight with a lightsaber that really wanted to kill someone. The OT fights were mostly ceremonius (if thats a word) Yes, somebody was going to die in ANH, but it was still more about ceremony than action. The first Maul fight in the desert is first in TPM with "trying to kill", and I think it's a better saber battle too, it's more intense and feels less choreographed, there's elements of confusion and emotion and ferocity all rolled into a really quick battle. Luke is trying to kill Vader on Cloud City as well, he just fails badly at it, and Vader seems willing to kill him at the end of that and the ROTJ battle as well, and Luke eventually goes for the kill there too. I'm not sure I understand what you mean about the ceremony of ANH killing Obi-Wan though, Obi-Wan seems to fight Vader to a draw until he's sure Luke can get to safety.

princethomas
06-17-2005, 08:02 AM
What I mean is that. In each of the three Duels in the OT, there is a lot more going on then just sword fighting. When Obi and Vader fought, they werent just going at it, ready to kill the other simply because they are on opposite sides. There is some real meaning to their meeting. So ther is a lot of talking to be done. I always felt like Obi and Vader were just feeling each other out. Touching lightsabers while they exchanged comments. Very clearly someone was going to die, but they werent just ready to go at it from the start. Same goes with both Luke/Vader duels. Luke wants to kill Vader in ESB, but hes not very good at fighting. Vader wants to talk to him and goad him into coming over. In Jedi, Luke wants to talk. And goad Vader into coming over.


The point is, when Q meets Maul in the desert. Its the first time any of us have seen a light saber fight between two people with no history or baggage, who are purely fighting from a kill and survival point of view. There was no stopping to talk about the history of the force or the nature of the Dark side or anything. That was why I always felt the TPM duels were more impressive from an "action" standpoint.

darko666
06-17-2005, 03:01 PM
Anyways, the Obi Qui vs. Maul duel did have a lot of history, it just wasn't personal. The Jedi and Sith are sworn enemies, and it had been about 1000 years since they last fought each other.

good point. to Maul, this was a fight of "revenge" against the jedi. he loathes them and wants their kind destroyed. so it does have history, but not with the personality of the characters themselves but with the history of the jedi vs. sith. Maul has been waiting for the chance to fight against the jedi or a jedi for a long time, it's what he was trained for. Qui or Obi never faced a sith before, since they have been hiding in the shadows for a long time, so it was a shock to them to even see a sith. TPM duel and ESB/ROTJ duels are the best the films have to offer. I don't know what compelled GL to have extreme close ups of the actors faces durning the fights. AOTC is a prime example.


The Qui-Gon vs Maul on Tatooine was just a warmup round.

thats a great fight. ferocious and fast paced. to bad they edited the scene down. i just hope they release the fight on the Royal Starship deck right before they leave Tattoine in some special edition of TPM. it was def. filmed, since the TPM disc 2 shows a still shot of Maul and Qui-Gon fighting on the deck of the ship.

JediTricks
06-17-2005, 09:48 PM
The point is, when Q meets Maul in the desert. Its the first time any of us have seen a light saber fight between two people with no history or baggage, who are purely fighting from a kill and survival point of view. There was no stopping to talk about the history of the force or the nature of the Dark side or anything. That was why I always felt the TPM duels were more impressive from an "action" standpoint.Just to be clear, I was only talking about a need for conversation in the Theed saber duel, not the Tatooine one, here's my previous comment again:

(in response to a question about what connection Maul and QGJ have that would give them reason to converse during the fight) Maul has a burning passion, he hates the Jedi severely and is seeking revenge, and Qui-Gon is curious about who this guy is and if he's really a Sith, and plus they both are completing a duel left unfinished in the Tatooine desert, that's their warrior's bond right there - it's not as strong as Ben & Vader, but it's not nothing.I guess it wasn't obvious enough when I posted it, but the reference is there: I mention that they're completing the duel left unfinished in the desert.

And I still maintain that the Theed saber battle suffers because of this (and other factors which I mentioned previously). It's all well and good that Maul took QGJ by surprise in the desert and that determined the tone of their battle, but the next battle is not afforded that luxury.

princethomas
06-18-2005, 12:21 AM
Yeah, that is a good point. I always thought it was cool. That the Theed battle was so "action packed" and that it was because they didnt have anything to say like in the other. But now that I think about it. It would be pretty cool to have a little dialogue there, just to have an idea of who the guy is and what his beef is.

darko666
06-18-2005, 02:23 AM
It would be pretty cool to have a little dialogue there, just to have an idea of who the guy is and what his beef is.

it's simple, he hated the jedi. i was reading somewhere(i will look for the site) that there were more scenes in the theed fight, which contained more fighting and actual dialouge from Maul, when he is fighting Obi-Wan. the Qui-Gon tv spot trailer shows proof that there was more to the fight. they are quick shots of the scene, but they are there. I guess they needed more time for little anakin to accidently destroy the trade federation ship.

i will look for this site and then post it when i find it.

Kidhuman
01-12-2007, 06:24 PM
Near the end of ROTS, Obi-Wan tells Anakin not to try it because he has the higher ground. It was over basically. Obi-Wan should have known better because in TPM, Maul had the higher ground and he took him out by doing the exact same thing Anakin tried to do. Nice flaw Lucas.

darthvyn
01-12-2007, 10:14 PM
he wasn't talking about the PHYSICAL higher ground - it was the MORAL higher ground... and no sith could ever acheive THAT. only a SITH deals in absolutes.

stillakid
01-12-2007, 10:44 PM
Um, yeah, Obers was talking about being physically higher than Ani. Sure, it works on another level too (whether Lucas was smart enough to realize that he managed that is another question) but the primary definition was dealing with physical location.

But Lucas was just "riffing" anyway, so that absolves him of any guilt. :rolleyes:

Rocketboy
01-12-2007, 11:42 PM
Near the end of ROTS, Obi-Wan tells Anakin not to try it because he has the higher ground. It was over basically. Obi-Wan should have known better because in TPM, Maul had the higher ground and he took him out by doing the exact same thing Anakin tried to do. Nice flaw Lucas.It worked, so it can't be that bogus.
Besides Maul just stood there like 'tard, while Obi-Wan actually acted when some dips**t tried to flip over his head.

Mad Slanted Powers
01-13-2007, 12:57 AM
It worked, so it can't be that bogus.
Besides Maul just stood there like 'tard, while Obi-Wan actually acted when some dips**t tried to flip over his head.And that's why Obi-Wan having the higher ground was an advantage in this case. He was prepared for what was coming and he had been in Anakin's position before. Darth Maul and Anakin both had the flaw of arrogance. Maul thought he had already won and was also guilty of revelling in the moment of making the Jedi suffer. Anakin was overconfident in his ability and thought that Obi-Wan wouldn't be able to counter what he was going to do.

bobafrett
01-13-2007, 08:14 AM
That's funny, I was just talking to one of my co workers the other day about this very same subject. I thought about starting a thread on it.

JediTricks
01-14-2007, 05:44 AM
Near the end of ROTS, Obi-Wan tells Anakin not to try it because he has the higher ground. It was over basically. Obi-Wan should have known better because in TPM, Maul had the higher ground and he took him out by doing the exact same thing Anakin tried to do. Nice flaw Lucas.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you... "been there, done that", aka "thread merged". ;)

General_Grievous
01-14-2007, 08:36 PM
I would have loved if Obi-Wan said "I told you I had the high ground" to Anakin after he butchered him.

2-1B
01-15-2007, 12:37 AM
I would have loved if Obi-Wan picked up Vader's severed limbs and clubbed him about the face with them.

Rocketboy
01-15-2007, 12:40 AM
And them whipped them out and gave those to Luke also in A New Hope.

2-1B
01-15-2007, 01:15 AM
"Your father wanted you to have these when you were old enough but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He was afraid you would follow old Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic black market body part grave robbing expedition such as your father did."

Bel-Cam Jos
01-15-2007, 09:56 AM
All of you are sick, sick, SICK! No moral high ground here... just a straight lava river to h3ll! :p

But I wanna play, too...

Anakin: "Ahhh! I hate you! "
Obi-Wan: "I know."

Anakin: "Ahhh! I hate you! "
Obi-Wan: "Who's more hateful; the hater or the one who's hated? Ooh, I like that one. Gotta work on mixing that one in sometime."

Anakin: "Ahhh! I hate you! "
Obi-Wan: "No, I am your father! Hmm... that actually kind of fits, really. Let's try it again; you start."

Anakin: "Ahhh! I hate you! "
Obi-Wan: "Here, let me give you a hand... and it's right over there! Ha ha ha! Get it? No, you can't, 'cause you gots no legs! Gotcha again! Ha ha ah ha ha! "

Aaahhhhhhhhh... :rolleyes:

Rogue II
01-15-2007, 11:44 AM
Are we sure Obi Wan wasn't talking about this Higher Ground (http://www.amazon.com/Higher-Ground-Barbra-Streisand/dp/B000002ANX/sr=1-2/qid=1168879354/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/102-9582769-5940113?ie=UTF8&s=music)?

Anakin would be screwed unless he could Force Summon the dude from The Cure.

Rocketboy
01-15-2007, 12:05 PM
Anakin: "I HATE YOU!"
Obi-Wan: "Buuuuuuurrrn!!!!!! I got u good!!!!!!!lol"

General_Grievous
01-15-2007, 04:32 PM
"Your father wanted you to have these when you were old enough but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He was afraid you would follow old Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic black market body part grave robbing expedition such as your father did."
lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lollol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

Maybe Obi-Wan could have got out some marshmallows and a stick to hold over Anakin while he did his "You were the chosen one" speech.

Mad Slanted Powers
01-15-2007, 07:29 PM
Are we sure Obi Wan wasn't talking about this Higher Ground (http://www.amazon.com/Higher-Ground-Barbra-Streisand/dp/B000002ANX/sr=1-2/qid=1168879354/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/102-9582769-5940113?ie=UTF8&s=music)?

Anakin would be screwed unless he could Force Summon the dude from The Cure.
I think instead it was Stevie Wonder's "Higher Ground". Anakin thought he could outdo Obi-Wan with all his Red Hot Chili Peppers "Higher Ground" jumping around and s**t, but Obi-Wan prevailed because Stevie's version was played blind. As Obi-Wan told Luke "your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."

CaptainSolo1138
01-15-2007, 07:32 PM
Are we sure Obi Wan wasn't talking about this Higher Ground (http://www.amazon.com/Higher-Ground-Barbra-Streisand/dp/B000002ANX/sr=1-2/qid=1168879354/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/102-9582769-5940113?ie=UTF8&s=music)?Are you sure he wasn't talking about the Higher Ground (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/r/red+hot+chili+peppers/higher+ground_20114860.html)?

Rogue II
01-15-2007, 07:36 PM
Are you sure he wasn't talking about the Higher Ground (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/r/red+hot+chili+peppers/higher+ground_20114860.html)?

Mecha-Streisand is more powerful than the RHCP. Didn't you see her kick arse on South Park?

Bel-Cam Jos
01-15-2007, 07:56 PM
Maybe since Obi-Wan loved him like a brother or son, he was thinking of "Higher Love" by Stev[i]e Winwood:

"Things look so bad, everywhere
In this whole world, what is there?"

bobafrett
01-15-2007, 08:18 PM
Are we sure Obi Wan wasn't talking about this Higher Ground (http://www.amazon.com/Higher-Ground-Barbra-Streisand/dp/B000002ANX/sr=1-2/qid=1168879354/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/102-9582769-5940113?ie=UTF8&s=music)?

Anakin would be screwed unless he could Force Summon the dude from The Cure.

I started thinking about a Steve Winwood song, "Bring me a higher ground", but then I started singing it, and it's "Bring me a higher love".

If Obi Wan listens to Barbara Streisand , then he was truely lost.

CaptainSolo1138
01-15-2007, 08:30 PM
If Obi Wan listens to Barbara Streisand , then he was truely lost.Only a non-Streisand fan deals in absolutes.

Blue2th
01-15-2007, 09:22 PM
"Don't do it Anakin laddy, I'm Ewen McGregor of the McGregor clan of the Highlanders"

Rocketboy
01-15-2007, 10:03 PM
Maybe Obi-Wan was just high.

Mad Slanted Powers
01-15-2007, 10:51 PM
"Don't do it Anakin laddy, I'm Ewen McGregor of the McGregor clan of the Highlanders"

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

2-1B
01-16-2007, 08:02 PM
THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

too bad that rule doesn't apply to the number of Highlander movies and television programs.

Mad Slanted Powers
01-16-2007, 08:12 PM
Yeah, I saw the first movie on video years ago, but none of the other movies. I don't know if I saw any entire episodes of the show.

CaptainSolo1138
01-17-2007, 12:44 AM
too bad that rule doesn't apply to the number of Highlander movies and television programs.Or the number of appearances David Carridine can make in character.

Blue2th
01-17-2007, 01:12 AM
"Don't drink it Anakin, I've got the higher ground blend of coffee" It's funny that Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan played opposite Liam Neeson as Qui-Gon-Jinn in Ep. 1, who played a famous historical Scotsman in another movie called Rob Roy (McGregor)

El Chuxter
05-11-2010, 12:26 AM
Little-known fact: the further one is from the core of Mustafar while remaining in physical contact with the planet, the more attuned one is to the Living Force, allowing even a novice with little training to become a master of the lightsaber art called vaapad. Obi-Wan knew of this planetary quirk, though Anakin seemed to be ignorant of this. (It's covered by younglings in their first grade class; Anakin, however, entered the Jedi training program a bit late and skipped first and second grades.) In effect, Obi-Wan was saying, "Anakin, seeing as how I am currently further from the core of Mustafar (yet still in contact with the planet), I would have the ability to cut off both your legs and one of your arms with one stroke, in defiance of the laws of physics. I would advise you not to jump and break contact with the planet, which would return you to your normal skill level whilst you are in midair, thus rendering you unable to counter my attack."

Mad Slanted Powers
05-11-2010, 01:19 AM
Sometimes when I am on the sidewalk and someone else is on the street, I say, "I have the high ground." That would make a funny parody.

Obi-Wan - "I have the high ground."

Anakin - "What are you talking about? That curb's only five inches! And I'm 3 inches taller than you, so you only have two inches on me!

JimJamBonds
05-11-2010, 10:21 AM
Sometimes when I am on the sidewalk and someone else is on the street, I say, "I have the high ground." That would make a funny parody.

Obi-Wan - "I have the high ground."

Anakin - "What are you talking about? That curb's only five inches! And I'm 3 inches taller than you, so you only have two inches on me!

A tactical advantage none the less.