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View Full Version : Do you like the change in Owen's relation?



2-1B
01-13-2002, 04:41 AM
Lately I've not heard any info concerning the Lars family in the prequels, so I'd like to visit the apparent change from Owen as Obi-Wan's brother to Anakin's stepbrother. At first I was weary because I hoped it wouldn't change continuity.

But I do believe it's probably better than the ROTJ novelization story. I really love the scene in ANH where Ben explains Vader's murder of Anakin. Regarding the lightsaber, he speaks of an idealistic crusade . . . if it's true that Anakin leaves for Obi-Wan and Geonosis, it could make for a nice tie to the classic films.

What are your opinions ?

JediTricks
01-13-2002, 10:38 AM
Like you, I originally felt it was wrong because I accepted Owen as Obi-Wan's brother - that actually felt right to me. But it's gone now and I really don't care that much (although if this were Ep 1, and I believe it easily could have been, it would bother me more since the saga of Anakin would have been showing one more ugly incident where Vader doesn't find his son on Tatooine, but Ep 1 kinda lowered my view of the SW universe a notch in general, so...). Honestly, for me it all comes down to why Obi-Wan took baby Luke to Owen, what Obi-Wan's reasoning was, nothing else affects my opinion of the Owen/Anakin/Obi-Wan connection.

PloKoon2385
01-13-2002, 02:57 PM
It doesn't matter because Obi-Wan was never officially made Owen's brother. Did Lucas ever state that he was? Not to my knowledge. It was only in EU stuff that he was ever mentioned as Obi-Wan's brother. My policy is.......forget everything you thought you knew about pre-ANH. It will all be changed by the mastermind behind Star Wars.....good ol' Georgie. Nothing is really true unless George says it is. Do you really think George reads the books? No.....I doubt it. So, don't believe anything except the movies.

2-1B
01-13-2002, 04:12 PM
This is not about believing other sources. There is no question as to Owen's relation to Anakin. I agree that what matters is what is shown in the films, and the point of this thread is to discuss what might be best for the films.


That being said, I would like to respond to JediTricks' view:

I see your point about the only importance being the motivations behind Obi-Wan's actions. I guess that if TPM hadn't limited Obi-Wan's role - correction, diminished his role - then the "brother thing" could have worked. Simply, I don't see how there would be enough time in these last two films to draw Obi-Wan's family ties.

If TPM didn't feature Tatooine as Anakin's home (maybe Obi-Wan's instead?), maybe it would have really been a covert hiding place.

Jedi Clint
01-13-2002, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by PloKoon2385
It doesn't matter because Obi-Wan was never officially made Owen's brother. Did Lucas ever state that he was? Not to my knowledge. It was only in EU stuff that he was ever mentioned as Obi-Wan's brother. My policy is.......forget everything you thought you knew about pre-ANH. It will all be changed by the mastermind behind Star Wars.....good ol' Georgie. Nothing is really true unless George says it is. Do you really think George reads the books? No.....I doubt it. So, don't believe anything except the movies.

This information comes from the novelizations of the films which are second only to what we see on screen. It is often considered canon, but I don't think it is ever really considered "expanded universe". The point has been made, however, that what is on film trumps the novelizations.

In response to the initial inquiry of this topic: It worked to have Kenobi be Owen's brother prior to the news of Anakin's relationship to the Lars family. Now I have come to terms with the new relationship and IMO, given the context of what has been established thus far in the SW saga, the new situation works also. Depending on what is further developed on screen (or their novelizations), it could be debated whether or not they are actually brothers (in some fashion) even though Anakin and Owen are step brothers. I am not commenting on how great or sour an idea that would be, only it's possibility. Owen's pop could have fathered Ol' Obi Wan in a previous relationship, and it is only later (after the prequels) that the two discuss their parentage. Small galaxy syndrome aside, it could be debated well into the future.

JediTricks
01-14-2002, 07:58 AM
Hey, that guy who was married to my Aunt for a few years in the '80s, he's still considered my uncle, so I don't think it'll be problem that Anakin and Owen aren't blood-relatives.

mabudonicus
01-14-2002, 12:53 PM
The only real problem with owen being anakins stepbrother is best addressed by caesar- why didn't vader look there at all? Why did the most powerful Jedi ever never think to look there, on tatooine? The way it unfolds in ANH, it really does look like serendipity was responsible for the whole OT, and even Darth was surprised by the discovery there, when having seen as much of tatooine as we have so far in the films, even I would've thought of at least checking it out to make sure that all of the loose ends had been taken care of. It has the makings of a scene from naked gun, you know,"nothing to see here!".
Back to the topic- indeed, the guarded nature of the dialogue between beru and owen is sufficiently vague to make it possible that whatever the truth, it isn't refuted in any way in ANH. Besides, obi-wan and C3PO both tell fairly whopping lies in the first bit of ANH that are revealed later in the films, what's to say that owen was completely upfront. Maybe owen even had to be careful to avoid certain thoughts, in order to ensure that Vader wouldn't catch them somehow and blow the whole charade . It might not have been the original intention, but if it works, it's okay by me, at least.Woooo

Co Jo-Da
01-14-2002, 01:18 PM
I too completely believed that Owen and Obi-Wan were related. After seeing TPM I though Anakin would lead a team of Jedi's to save the slaves on Tatooine and than a smaller team lead by Owen Kenobi would stay on Tatooine to ensure the peace...

Now the leaked Episode II reports about Shmi SkyWalker getting married to a Moisture Farmer named Cliegg Lars, she leaves Watto's Junk Yard and moves in with Lars clan to start a new life. Cluegg's son Owen Lars and his girlfriend (? or wife?) Beru Whitesun live on the Homestead as well...

It still remains a mystery as to why Owen and Anakin have problems with each other and later with Obi-Wan...

Owen got to spend a lot of time with Shmi and Anakin might be jealous of that?

Jedi Clint
01-14-2002, 10:05 PM
I bet we will see something like this in AOTC:

Anakin and Padme prepare to leave for Geonosis to help Obi Wan shortly after Anakin returns from his last few moments with his mother. Owen and Cleigg are present, and they are both in mourning for Shmi as well. Owen and Anakin have a spirited exchange. Cleigg interupts them, and offers Anakin (and Padme) a few kind words as they depart: "You are welcome back any time." To which Anakin (in a very stern and serious tone) replies: "I am NEVER coming back here again!" This is in the presence of Padme who will one day remember his words when she and those in her confidence (Kenobi and Yoda) decide where Luke should be taken.

bigbarada
01-14-2002, 10:22 PM
I've heard that Anaking vows never to return to Tatooine, which is why Vader didn't personally lead the search for Threepio and Artoo in ANH.

Let's work Owen's new relationship out: Shmi marries Cleigg, thus Cleigg is Anakin's father-in-law. This would make Owen and Anakin brothers-in-law. Thus Owen would truly be Luke's uncle (in-law). Probably the closest thing to a family relation Obi-Wan has to go on, which is why he leaves Luke with Owen and Beru (who I assume can't have children of their own for some reason).

JediTricks
01-14-2002, 10:36 PM
For me, it would be 10 times more annoying than Owen being Anakin's brother; "it" being if Lucas uses Anakin saying something like "I'm never coming back to this place" to explain away why Luke and Ben were hidden there so well for so long. That feels so cheap, like if Lucas wrote a scene in which Greedo is sitting at a table and almost gets shot, so he vows always to shoot first after that.

bigbarada
01-14-2002, 10:47 PM
There is always the odd chance that Darth Vader knew exactly where Luke was all along. He just kept it quiet because he planned to tempt Luke to the Dark Side and use him to help overthrow the Emperor. This might have been his plan all along. Why kill such a powerful potential Force user, when he might be used to Vader's ends.

When Vader tells the Emperor in ESB that he has felt Luke's presence, it is never layed out just how long he has been feeling his presence. In ROTJ when Vader senses Luke but the Emperor doesn't it could be a special link that Vader has established over the years to keep tabs on his son.

ESB revealed that Vader wasn't as loyal to the Emperor as everyone believed. So what's to stop him from keeping Luke's existence hidden from the Emperor up until ANH?

SithDroid
01-14-2002, 11:23 PM
I agree with you mabudon. This whole thing seems stupid. Why wouldn't Vader seek out Luke on Tatooine if he knew he was there. Now suppose that Vader would have raised them from since they were born, then they would only know about the dark side of the force and would be brought up around evil. It happens to everyday families in the US. If you abuse your kids, chances are they'll abuse theirs when they grow up. If you drink heavily, chances are they will too. Not to say that every household is like that. Some people have a hard life and turn out quite fine. The point I'm trying to make is that it would be far easier for Vader to train them an hone their skills at an earlier age and far easier to lead them to the dark side. If evil is all you know, then that's all you'll be. This whole Idea of he knew where they were dosen't make sense.

Good points bigbarada, I like the way you think. And Owen would be his STEP uncle, not his uncle-in-law. But, however, why wouldn't he look for his children there. It seems a likely place that they would be there. Why also would he choose to kill his own stepbrother in ANH? Also he already has Leia in his possession and he tries to kill her? What, he can't sense she's his child, but can sense Luke? He has her scheduled to be executed in ANH?

Also another point to bring up is (and I've said this in another forum as well) that IF Owen and Obi-Wan are brothers, then how come:

1. In TPM when they land on Tatooine, Obi-Wan doesn't say "Hey I've got a brother here who could help us out." Instead they go the long way of betting and gambling to get the parts they need for their ship. PLOT HOLE.

2. How could a couple of Imperial Stormtroopers kill a Jedi like Owen as in ANH? He wouldn't have died that easily.

I believe that GL dug himself a hole when he set Episode I on Tatooine. If it were set anywhere else then he could fix this problem, but now he is trying to make up for it by changing things. I bet he didn't even think about these things when he began working on TPM. And if he did then he probably thought, well no one is going to notice anyway and even if they do the'll like it anyway because it's Star Wars. Do us a favor, do your research on your own films before you start writing about the others. Man, they need me as a script consultant at Lucasfilm. I'd be happy to help. I am a writer after all, although you can't tell by the way I post in these forums (ex. bad grammar, punctuation, and such):D

bigbarada
01-14-2002, 11:39 PM
Palpatine is Vader's master and it's highly doubtful that he would allow Vader to take on an apprentice or train his son in the ways of the dark side. Remember the Sith are constantly plotting against each other and any new development or interest would bring on a lot of suspicion. Thus Vader let's Obi-Wan train Luke and he plans to step in at the most opportune time and reveal himself and give Luke the choice, "join me or die." By then Vader hopes that Luke would be powerful enough to actually be a threat to the Emperor and they would be able to take him down together.

I know, I know, Vader seemed to have no trouble killing Palpatine at the end of ROTJ; but his son was being tortured before his eyes. That leads me to believe that there is something stopping him. Remember the line, "I MUST obey my master!" Why? Obviously Palpatine does something in the prequels to command Vader's servitude. Vader feels that he will not be able to kill Palpatine of his own free will. He needs the strength of his son combined with his to break Palpatine's spell over him.

It's obvious that the whole Obi-Wan/Owen brother relationship has been nixed completely. As this would mean that Owen would have a high midi-count and would have been discovered by the Council along with his brother. Unless he WAS discovered and failed out somehow; but let's not open that can of worms.:)

Plus, the added coincidence of Shmi just happening to marry Obi-Wan's father would be the straw that broke the bantha's back IMO.

mabudonicus
01-15-2002, 12:03 PM
Sithdroid, I must agree with pretty much every point you made. Setting the film on tatooine is probably the biggest mistake since Jabbas "smaller years". The already amazing number of coincidences in the OT didn't have to be pushed this far, and you can pretty much tell that lucas never thought anywhere near as hard as he should have when he was "writing" TPM. The idea of a scene with that "never coming back" line makes sense, but it really would be like the origin scene of greedos shoot first mentality. Wooooooo!!!

2-1B
01-15-2002, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
if Lucas uses Anakin saying something like "I'm never coming back to this place" to explain away why Luke and Ben were hidden there so well for so long. That feels so cheap

Indeed, VERY cheap !

Assuming that Anakin does experience great emotional hardship on Tatooine in AOTC, isn't it enough that I watch the films and interpret for myself that Vader is too pained by the planet to go there?

He leads the force into Leia's blockade runner, leads the crew on Hoth, etc. The point is that Vader is a very "hands on" commander. Given his mother's alleged death on that planet, an event that is probably helpful in his turn to the dark side, it makes sense that he might avoid it. Maybe that's just a rationalization based on what was given in TPM, but . . .

Co Jo-Da
01-18-2002, 01:48 AM
Yeah, Vader leads the assault force on the Blockade Runner but he wasn't finished on the ship when he order the search on Tatooine, plus looking for two droids on an empty planet doesn't seem worth his time...

mabudonicus
01-18-2002, 02:07 PM
I just had a thought- if anakin/vader somehow believed that all of his relations(the lars's and padme and so on) were somehow wiped out, and he really knew nothing of even the POSSIBILITY of luke+leias existence, he might have not even considered looking for them(or owen, or obi wan) I imagine that the battle that leaves vader "more machine than man"(probably the end of E3,eh?) might do a a lot of damage to his mind as well, possibly even leaving him in a coma--- I know that's bending over backwards to make it work, but it does make a real strained sense....

jedi master sal
01-18-2002, 02:33 PM
couldn't it be that he is so possesed by the dark side that he forgot about Tatooine?

I do hold with the general populace though that it is too painful for him to go to the planet.
My real question is how could he not feel obi-wans presence.
surely obi-wan didn't have his guard up after such a long time. (unless the force gave him a premonition)

whaddaUthink?

SithDroid
01-18-2002, 02:46 PM
Even so mabudon, if his memory were somehow erased, then how does he even know he has children. After all it is he himself who tells Luke he is his father. Did someone inform him, "Hey, uh, by the way Mr. Vader sir, did you know you have two children?" "Oh, really, what are their ames?" "Luke and Leia, I believe." "Oh O.K., I'll keep that in mind."

Doesn't make sense. I love how everyone is trying to find a way to explain the huge PLOT HOLES in the series, however, that is GL fault. He should have corrected them. See the "GL said midichlorians were the idea all along," thread for my solution to this problem along with the PLOT HOLE that it creates. GL should have watched the OT a couple of times before writing TPM to make sure everything fit. However this whole Tatooine setting for TPM has set up problems like I stated earier. Only, PARTIAL, solution, a special edition of TPM.

snakeplkn
01-18-2002, 02:47 PM
Like Nero fiddles when Rome burns ... Lucas directs the prequels as Star Wars falls into the trash heap of science fiction. Think Star Trek V, Alien 3, Predator 2 ...

I don't know why we want to delude ourselves into these zany theories. After watching the Episode I DVD and seeing Lucas "at work," we all may just be better off buying as many THX copies of the original trilogy to last for the rest of our lives.

Uncle Owen is going to be Anakin's stepbrother? Come on! I sure hope this rumour turns out to be false. I don't see possibly how Vader doesn't know where Luke is unless he has a memory wipe. Why didn't Vader kill Owen, he has a habit of murdering others that annoy him.

If it wasn't for Han Solo, Vader probably would've blown Luke to a million pieces during the Death Star trench run. Not to mention Vader almost killed Luke on several occasions in Cloud City. He even chopped his arm off for good measure. And doesn't Vader say, "Don't make me destroy you."

Lucas never explained why Vader couldn't feel Luke or Obi-Wan from the Star Destroyer as it hovered over Tatooine, but could feel Obi on the Death Star and Luke at Bespin.

I can't figure this out either ... Leia is going to Tatooine to meet with Obi-Wan Kenobi to ask for his help against the Empire when the Imperials and Vader catch up. Before the prequels, it is understandable why Vader doesn't go down to the surface where his former teacher and son are. But now, that planet was his home, where his mother died, and he's not at all suspicious why Leia is heading to this backwater planet?

Another catch, he doesn't tell Leia that he's her father, but tells Luke. He doesn't really mention Leia until Return of the Jedi in the throne room as being part of the family. Does Vader know that he even had a daughter?

Ever notice that Obi-Wan picked out Tatooine when they escaped from Naboo?

Sure, say "wait till all the movies come out." However if Lucas never made the prequels to begin with, we would never have this mess.

Snake Plissken
"A little human compassion"

Post Script: On a completely different note, I still haven't figured out what is being built in the Episode I deleted scene when Qui-Gon destroys a probe droid and makes a run for it.

quigon_jimm
01-27-2002, 03:14 PM
What everyone seems to easily forget is that Vader doesn't remember much about his past (outside of Obi-Wan). This is obvious in Jedi, he doesn't know that Luke has a twin sister, and he tells Luke that the name Anakin no longer has any meaning to him. If he still didn't realize that Leia was his daughter, after even interregating her in ANH, God only knows how long it took for him to realize that Luke was his son. Thus, it is pretty easy to speculate that he doesn't remember Tatooine, or much else about his life as Anakin Skywalker. Even in Episode IV, when he says "I feel a presense, a presence I have not felt since....", he hasn't even felt Obi-Wan's presence in sometime, that is why he doesn't look for him on Tatooine.

Now this is speculation, but it seems evident that he doesn't start remembering much until the carbon chamber when he sees 3PO and knocks Fett's gun down so that he can't shoot at Chewy and hit 3PO as well. Basically, my point is that between the tramatic event of Obi-Wan kicking his *** so bad that he needs a bio-mechanical suit to live and the darkside in him, that he probably does forget almost his entire past.

SithDroid
01-27-2002, 04:21 PM
I'm sorry, but I would have to disagree. While it is quite possible that he may have forgetten some of his past, I doubt it. He DOES know about Leia in ROTJ, he even says so. He knows about Luke.

The only reason he doesn't say anything about them in ANH is because Lucas didn't think that ESB and ROTJ would get made and didn't want to leave any loose ends. He thought that SW would probably just make a little bit of money, he never knew for 100% that a sequel would be made. When he found out the amount of money it made, then he decided to go ahead and tell the rest of the story. That is the only reason. If all these clues would have been left in the first movie and it did poorly at the box office, then the ones of us who saw it would be saying, well what about this part, or that part? We would never know because the story would have never had a chance to resolve itself.

He knows he is Anakin Skywalker, but he refuses to use that name because it is a part of his life that he would RATHER forget, not DOESN'T remember. He is evil now and goes by Darth Vader, not Anakin, so that name really has no meaning for him anymore.

quigon_jimm
01-27-2002, 04:54 PM
Vader did not know about Leia, not until the final battle with Luke. Hence the quote, "Sister, so you have a twin sister, Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me, now his failure is complete, if you will not turn, than perhaps she will". That quote alone proves that he didn't know about Leia being his daughter until Luke's mind wandered and allowed Vader to have knowledge of the information. Even earlier in the movie when Luke is speaking with Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan says "The Emperor knew, as I did that if Anakin were to have any off-spring that they would be a threat to him.... that is why the identity of your sister remains anonomious." So, no Vader does not have memory of everything that had to do with his life as Anakin.

SithDroid
01-27-2002, 11:57 PM
Well I guess we will have to see Ep II to find out. It is quite possible that Anakin doesn't even know about the birth of his children, or even for that matter that Padme is pregnant. We have no idea of knowing when exactly he turns and what information he will know for sure.

As for the final quote, just like I stated before. The story had to evolve. At the very end of ESB we learn that Vader is Luke's father. A great ending, wanting us to know more. There was no need for Vader to tell Luke that he had a sister at that exact moment. He was focusing on getting Luke to join him. Why talk about something that is off the subject? It's common sense. Could you imagine the scene going, "No Luke I am your Father". "No that's impossible!" "Search your feelings, you know this to be true. And you have a sister. A twin sister. Now join me or die!" It's all about the element of storytelling, which was excellently done with the OT.

As for the reason the identity of his sister remains anonymous is because of a couple of reasons. First suppose in EP III Anakin learns that Padme had a child. Perhaps at this part of the story he is turning to the dark side. He knows that Padme is pregnant, but does not know that she is having twins. Upon the birth they give Leia to Bail Organa in secrecy, so that Anakin does not know about her, hence Anakin only knows about Luke. We will have to see how this plays out in EP III. That is the only way for sure.

quigon_jimm
01-28-2002, 12:23 AM
I think we will find that Vader either a) doesn't remember much of his days as Anakin, or 2) that he doesn't know certain things, such as Padme being pregnant. But, time will tell, we will find out alot in the last two prequels. I just hope Lucas has time to tell the story, it seems like there is so much that has to happen, specifically, Anakin's turn, the twins being born, Anakin and Obi-wan's final duel, and Anakin being put into the suit. So much to do, I hope Episode III is like 3 hrs long. And, I think it'd be really cool if somehow in the middle of all of this Lucas could find a way to tie Han and Chewy and maybe even Lando into it. It'd be cool to see the Falcon again (although there are rumors that perhaps Obi-wan will own the Falcon first). Anyway, it's gonna be hot, and I can't wait for May!

Co Jo-Da
01-28-2002, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by quigon_jimm
It'd be cool to see the Falcon again (although there are rumors that perhaps Obi-wan will own the Falcon first). Anyway, it's gonna be hot, and I can't wait for May!

I would like to see the Falcon as well. I would also tie in nice why Ben studied over the Falcon so hard in ANH...

Obi-Don
01-28-2002, 06:58 AM
My guess is that Vader didn't know about the children. Only after awhile confronting Luke did he realize that Luke was is son. I think that is why he didn't look for them. If he knew,he would have searched the galaxy for them as he did when he found out about Luke. Besides I think that being a Sith,that one thing you must have is a good memory. Unless the battle with Obi-Wan took that part of his memory or the Emperor took it to keep Vader on his side. As we have seen, a child can have a big influence on a father and the Emperor knew this to be true. IE... Vader turning on the Emperor to save his son. The Emperor might have known about the children,but not where they were,and thought that if Vader didn't know and if they didn't get trained. They would be no threat to him. Well its one idea anyway.


About going back to his home on Tatoonie. It would have not been very important to Vader due to having more important things to do,like dealing with the rebels. I'm sure Vader didn't think that Tatoonie was a very important place anyway so why bother with it. Also that if you have really bad memories in a place,most will tend to avoid the place. Also maybe the Emperor didn't want Vader to go back to a place where memories could be remembered.

SithDroid
01-28-2002, 05:09 PM
Perhaps Vader didn't want to get sand in his boots?:D :crazed:

jedi master sal
01-29-2002, 03:43 PM
Shmi gets married to owen's dad cliegg. thereby making luke his step-nephew. I'll get back to you when I find the site I gleaned this info from. It was off of a list of charcters/actors for the cast of EPII.

seems legit.

SithDroid
01-29-2002, 03:49 PM
Yes, that is correct. At least if we follow the information about Shmi marrying Cliegg. Originally Owen was supposed to be Obi-Wan's brother, but that idea got scrapped for this new one.