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View Full Version : Always 2 there are.....no more...no less.



Exhaust Port
06-22-2005, 10:06 AM
MACE WINDU : There is no doubt. The mysterious warrior was a Sith.
YODA : Always two there are....no more...no less. A master and an
apprentice.
MACE WINDU : But which one was destroyed, the master or the apprentice?

I always took this to mean that at any given time there were only 2 Sith as bizarre as that would sound. Now I think I may have been in error. Does this dialog imply that there are hundreds if not thousands of Sith but they only exist in groups of 2? I guess that would be similar to the Jedi in that each Master can only take on 1 apprentice.

CaptainSolo1138
06-22-2005, 10:22 AM
I thought that (here we go with EU again :rolleyes: ) after Darth Bane went ape s**t, they limited it to just two Sith at a time to prevent the inevitable power struggles and such.

Anyone with a better explaination or more EU knowledge can jump in anytime.....

stillakid
06-22-2005, 11:23 AM
I thought that (here we go with EU again :rolleyes: ) after Darth Bane went ape s**t, they limited it to just two Sith at a time to prevent the inevitable power struggles and such.

Anyone with a better explaination or more EU knowledge can jump in anytime.....

My understanding of the whole Sith situation is that sometime deep in the past, corruption and greed overtook a segment of those who could use the Force. The original group was called the Jedi and this splinter "bad guy" group was called the Sith. It didn't form overnight like a private club or anything. Over time, the Sith gathered many (number unknown) members but because they were all bad guys, inevitably, the desire to be in charge began to eat the "club" from the inside out. They killed one another off one by one each trying to get to the top until there were only two left.

This is why the Jedi keep vigilant about starting down the darkpath. Power corrupts even the most noble of us so using "bad" things to justify "good" results ultimately leads one to destruction.

But there can only be two apparently because of this desire for power. The "Master" has to teach an apprentice lest the sect die out, however he does so with the inherent knowledge that he will likely get offed at some point as his apprentice seeks the throne of power. It's a sick relationship they have, but nobody ever said that the Sith were entirely sane either. :D

2-1B
06-22-2005, 12:27 PM
I agree pretty much with what stillakid said . . . I like the idea that the "rule of 2" is more of an inevitability since by their very nature they wipe each other out.

The idea that a bunch of Sith "decided" to limit it to Only Two just sounds really stupid to me, EU or not. :D

edit: One more thing, I also think that the current head Sith does know that his apprentice will want to take over, but in the master's arrogance he finds himself too confident that he can keep the apprentice under his thumb . . . like Palpatine before Vader drops him down that shaft. lol

JimJamBonds
06-22-2005, 01:08 PM
If memory serves me correct wasn't it Darth Bane ? that decided there should only be two Sith do to the infighting etc. It was after the "rule of two" that they went into hiding waiting for the right time to show themselves. SO if that is the case how does Yoda know "always two there are..."? Wouldn't they have thought the Sith were gone? And if they knew there were two out there they didn't seem to be looking too hard. That has always been something I've wondered about.

Slicker
06-22-2005, 08:48 PM
SO if that is the case how does Yoda know "always two there are..."? Wouldn't they have thought the Sith were gone? And if they knew there were two out there they didn't seem to be looking too hard. That has always been something I've wondered about.Mayhaps Yoda read up on his Sith history to know the rule of 2. As for not looking for the Sith, remember that they were supposed to have been extinct for a millenia so after the first 500 years of fruitless looking I'd have given up too.

As for Yoda saying "Always 2 there are, no more no less" that sounds like he's dealing in absolutes and I thought only Sith dealt in absolutes.:confused:

Exhaust Port
06-22-2005, 09:41 PM
A fact is a bit different than the absolutes that Obi Wan was talking about in ROTS. It would be no different that saying I only had 2 brothers, no more, no less.

Rocketboy
06-22-2005, 10:34 PM
Always two there are....no more...no less.No less than 2, huh?
Bull****!
When Maul dies, there is only 1 Sith.
And anyone that can count will tell you that 1 is less than 2.
Dooku also bites it and leaves only 1 Sith.

God, these prequels are so friggin' flawed and full of plotholes...
:rolleyes:








:D

JimJamBonds
06-23-2005, 12:00 AM
No less than 2, huh?
Bull****!
When Maul dies, there is only 1 Sith.
And anyone that can count will tell you that 1 is less than 2.
Dooku also bites it and leaves only 1 Sith.

God, these prequels are so friggin' flawed and full of plotholes...
:rolleyes:



:D

Lets not forget that Palps dies AND so does Vader leaving how many Sith????? I guess the OT has its major plotholes as well. lol

stillakid
06-23-2005, 12:02 AM
Lets not forget that Palps dies AND so does Vader leaving how many Sith????? I guess the OT has its major plotholes as well. lol

Luke started down the darkpath...it was the only way he could bring down Vader...and now it will forever dominate his destiny. So, there you go. :) At the end of the OT, we have one Sith. :classic:

JimJamBonds
06-23-2005, 12:07 AM
Luke started down the darkpath...it was the only way he could bring down Vader...and now it will forever dominate his destiny. So, there you go. :) At the end of the OT, we have one Sith. :classic:

Good point there Stilla, so that makes Luke the Master who is his apprentice? :)

darko666
06-23-2005, 12:14 AM
No less than 2, huh?
Bull****!
When Maul dies, there is only 1 Sith.
And anyone that can count will tell you that 1 is less than 2.
Dooku also bites it and leaves only 1 Sith.

God, these prequels are so friggin' flawed and full of plotholes...


i agree with your last sentence.

as for the no less than 2 sith, when Maul dies, Sidious takes Dooku as an apprentice. when Dooku dies, Anakin becomes the apprentice. so the 2 rule is intact throught the trilogys. wow, i just defended the PT...strange.

i'm also foced to believe that there are other Sith out there. Sidious cannot be the only Sith around. to think others will not be turned to the dark side or learning the dark side when there is already a Master and Apprentice is ridiculous. maybe after the Sith War, they remain hidden and learn the dark side but when word that a master is present they await to see what happens. of the master fails, a new one will takes his/her place. but i don't know, i'm just speculating.

JimJamBonds
06-23-2005, 12:40 AM
Mayhaps Yoda read up on his Sith history to know the rule of 2. As for not looking for the Sith, remember that they were supposed to have been extinct for a millenia so after the first 500 years of fruitless looking I'd have given up too.

As for Yoda saying "Always 2 there are, no more no less" that sounds like he's dealing in absolutes and I thought only Sith dealt in absolutes.:confused:

The way I understood it the Sith go 'underground' appearing to have been eliminated to the Jedi. The whole time however there are only two and Darth Maul is the first Sith in 'x' number of years to show himself to the Jedi. Its my understanding that the 'rule of two' wouldn't have been known to the Jedi because they thought the Sith were done. This has always bugged me a bit, not too much just enough to be annoying.

stillakid
06-23-2005, 11:00 AM
Good point there Stilla, so that makes Luke the Master who is his apprentice? :)

We'll have to wait for Episode VII. :)

Rocketboy
06-23-2005, 03:20 PM
i agree with your last sentence.Sarcasm, my good man.
Just ribbin' the Prequel bashers.

JediTricks
06-24-2005, 12:40 AM
Lets not forget that Palps dies AND so does Vader leaving how many Sith????? I guess the OT has its major plotholes as well. lolCute, but ridiculous on 2 different levels:
- (real-world) This is not a plothole of the OT as this plothole was created AFTER the OT was created.
- (in-movie) Yoda didn't say that Sith HAD to exist, only that this is the way they operate - when a master dies, the apprentice becomes the master and takes on an apprentice; when an apprentice dies, the master takes on a new one - and in fact the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force according to Ep 3 meant that Anakin would rid the galaxy of the Sith altogether.



i'm also foced to believe that there are other Sith out there. Sidious cannot be the only Sith around. I believe there are other Dark Jedi, as the EU calls them, but not strictly more Sith, a specific sect.



The way I understood it the Sith go 'underground' appearing to have been eliminated to the Jedi. The whole time however there are only two and Darth Maul is the first Sith in 'x' number of years to show himself to the Jedi. Its my understanding that the 'rule of two' wouldn't have been known to the Jedi because they thought the Sith were done. This has always bugged me a bit, not too much just enough to be annoying. It's always bugged me as well, I think the forums actually had a thread on that a while back.

JimJamBonds
06-27-2005, 11:53 PM
I guess the OT has its major plotholes as well.


Cute, but ridiculous on 2 different levels...

Well my tounge was planted firmly in my cheek as I typed that. All I know is we don't see any kissing brothers/sisters in the PT. :p (Again tounge in cheek)

Tom Foolery
07-07-2005, 03:12 PM
I think Darth Vader was a Sith. I had a book with pictures in it and one of the pictures was of Darth Vader and under it it said he was a Sith Lord. Besides that though, I still think he's a sith and so is Mace Windu because he's only so angry and he knows about Sith Lords.

stillakid
07-07-2005, 07:15 PM
I think Darth Vader was a Sith. I had a book with pictures in it and one of the pictures was of Darth Vader and under it it said he was a Sith Lord. Besides that though, I still think he's a sith and so is Mace Windu because he's only so angry and he knows about Sith Lords.


A book...with pictures in it! :eek: And it said Vader was a Sith Lord?! Holy smokes! That's really interesting, Tom Foolery. Thanks for sharing. :classic:

Does anyone else in the class have something to share? ;)

JimJamBonds
07-08-2005, 12:02 AM
Does anyone else in the class have something to share? ;)

My cat's breath smells like catfood. :p

hamsterboy
07-10-2005, 02:48 AM
Good point there Stilla, so that makes Luke the Master who is his apprentice? :)



My guess would be Leia since she's the only canidate left.

Darth Spectre
07-20-2005, 05:15 PM
Getting back to the actual quote, the real problem with Yoda's statement is not the "no more, no less" part. It is the "only two there are" part. He should not have known that, because the Sith did not operate that way when they existed in the past. There were thousands of Sith, like thousands of Jedi. The rule of 2 only came into being after Darth Bane established it (in secret). That is how the Sith remained in existence, though unknown to the Jedi. For Yoda to know the "rule of 2", he would have to know the Sith were still in existence. And then, well, to be blunt, the events of the three prequels should have gone very very differently. I was waiting for this to be touched upon in Eps II or III, but it never was. Much like wanting to hear exactly what "the Chosen One" prophecy said, it was not meant to be. But to me, Yoda's quote is a major faux pas. Maybe once they go back and CGI Yoda in TPM, they will fix that too.

JimJamBonds
07-21-2005, 02:17 AM
I think you're dead on there DS, I'm too lazy to go and check but I thought I said something along the lines of 'so how can Yoda know this' earlier in the thread but I'm not sure. I think the "always 2..." line was said as one of those "we need to give this info to the audience and there really isn't a good way of doing it so we'll just up and say it." I think it lets us know WHY there are only two and why they've kept it on the down low and secret also it explains why this is such a shock. But like you said DS it does not really make sense.

2-1B
07-21-2005, 03:00 AM
Doesn't bother me at all, I believe the Sith dwindled down to the ranks of 2 before they became "extinct" so it would be common knowledge to my little green friend that there are only two.

Now, if somebody went out and wrote a book saying that the rule of 2 kicked in after the Jedi believed the Sith were already extinct, well then that's the EU's problem. Not mine. ;)

Darth Spectre
07-21-2005, 04:16 AM
The explanation for the two rule was in the novelization for TPM. It states there that Darth Bane, after surviving the final battle between the Sith & Jedi (surviving unbeknownst to the Jedi), established the one master & apprentice philosophy since he came to conclude that the Sith were at least as responsible in the big picture for destroying themselves as the Jedi were. All their constant in fighting and power struggles lead them to ruin. So again, Yoda speaks of this rule like it had been always the way the Sith operated, but that is not the case. It was adopted to allow them to survive in secrecy, as well as the reason listed above.

2-1B
07-21-2005, 04:47 AM
And a silly backstory it is. The whole point of the Dark Side is selfishness and greed, so why would a prospective Sith Lord "go along with" such foolishness in order to protect an Order that he won't be able to benefit from ? :confused:

Darth Spectre
07-21-2005, 10:36 AM
The two trilogies alone demonstrated why this philosophy made sense. We constantly saw Sith Lords trying to better deal each other left and right, and that was with ONLY two true Sith Lords at a time. Imagine thousands of Sith Lords, all trying to become more powerful and influential than the next, and you can easily imagine chaos ensuing. But again, whether one likes the idea or not, the point remains that Yoda shouldn't have known that 2 rule thing unless he had some secret info no one else did, and if so, why wouldn't he have shared it with Mace at least? It is a statement that directly contradicted the novel and at the very least someone at Lucasfilm should be responsible for catching or pointing out such conflicts.