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View Full Version : Where are these moments in Ep 3?



JediTricks
06-30-2005, 08:34 PM
(The thread title is in reference to the attached .wav file)


The concept of this dawned on me a few weeks ago, I was thinking about this yet never got the chance to post it until now. When I think of the Star Wars saga, I often gravitate to these exciting moments where something amazing and exciting happens which sometimes comes with a variation on the musical cue attached here. In turn, the feeling I get when I hear that music is often one of bold excitement, so the piece obviously is doing its job. That this cue is Luke's Theme is secondary to that feeling in me, but as it is considered Luke's Theme by John Williams who wrote it, it isn't found in the prequels -- except it's used as the main title which gets into the sticky issue of how Star Wars is about Luke or Vader which sorta ties into another thread of mine: http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=28846 and I would argue that Williams wrote it as the main hero's theme and that was Luke's when it was his story but could have applied it in the prequels similarly.

Also, I didn't especially care for Williams's prequel scores, I used to think that Williams sorta dropped the ball with them but it dawned on me when this thread's question first came up in my head that perhaps Williams DID do his job creating a soundtrack that fit the elements of the prequels and since the prequels didn't work for me, what he produced - being a reflection of that - also didn't work for me (this wasn't a concsious decision or anything on my part). Look at the trailers for the prequels, they got people very fired up, yet each one used music not from its own movie but iconic cues from the OT, which gave a different impression than what we actually ended up with (I might argue that Williams should have used more of those OT cues when building the prequel scores since these are more Star Wars films, but that's just a very basic personal opinion about how it feels to me more than artistic merit or anything).

Anyway, this thread isn't asking where this specific cue is, but where that feeling is in ROTS - and in the prequels overall, I suppose. I ask because I can't think of any on my own, that feeling doesn't come up for me when I think about these things, the tone of the scenes aren't exciting like this to me I guess, and now that you know my feelings and thoughts on this and have heard the clip, I'm wondering what those moments are for others whether they like or dislike the prequels.

DiminutiveJedi
06-30-2005, 11:55 PM
To me, it seemed Lucas always intended for the story to be about Anakin, inasmuch as he titled the OT "The Redemption of Anakin Skywalker" and then titled the PT "The Fall of Anakin Skywalker."
However, the story can't really be about a villain half the time, so Luke takes over as new protagonist in ANH.
Therefore, I consider it Luke's theme only when Anakin is Vader, and Anakin's theme only before Luke is born.
Consider it The Hero's Theme. That way, you're never wrong!

Slicker
07-01-2005, 01:49 AM
I kinda know what you mean JT. When I watch the OT I literally get chills when some of the music cues up and I can only think of one such instance in the PT and that is in TPM when Maul appears when the doors open. It's that dramatic change of music instead of a gradual build up to it that makes a particular scene or introduction all that much better. As you said I don't believe it's any fault of John Williams he was just scoring the film as he saw it.

DarkArtist
07-01-2005, 09:02 AM
I actually liked the prequel soundtracks because they have certain themes that tie the OT with the PT. Luke's theme is basically Anakin's theme replayed using different instruments. If you think about the themes would have to be similar so there is some sort of tie in between Luke and Anakin. I think it would have made more sense if Lucas started his tail with the PT because then the shock at Empire would have been even more so.
I especially love how he incorporated the theme from the Bespin Duel into the battle of Mace and Palpy. I thought it was awesome to hear it once again. :)

JimJamBonds
07-01-2005, 09:53 AM
As Slicker said the one moment that REALLY got me was Dual of The Fates from TPM. A great piece of music being used with a chilling vision on the screen. As much as I love Duel of the Fates I didn't really care for its use in AOTC with Anakin on that speeder bike looking for his mom. Before ROTS came out I was expecting a huge kick ash song for the duel, my orginal reaction to Battle of the Hero's was... meh! It didn't really do too much for me as a stand along piece. In the context of the film I love it and think it works great. I'd say on the whole the OT's soundtrack is 'better' then the PT's. But then again it must be noted that John Williams was working with a 'frest canvas' for E's 4-6 and was restricted by that very canvas he created for 1-3.

jedi master sal
07-01-2005, 09:55 AM
I happened to like the opening space battle music in ROTS. It seemed regal, stirring and you get the feeling something very important is happening. (Well, that's how I heard and felt it.)

vader68
07-01-2005, 10:44 AM
When comparing the music from the original triology, to the prequels it is very hard to do so. How can you top the soundtrack to the originals. As soon as you hear it, everyone can identify it.From the opening sequence, to vaders theme, you can't top these pieces. I think Williams did a good job with the soundtracks in the prequels, but aside from "duel of fates" in TPM, nothing really stood out. Aotc, I can't remeber anything specific about the music there, but I did like the sountrack from ROTS. I thought it was stirring, and gave me chills at some points. Granted it is not like the original, but I don't think it fair to compare the two, just like you can't compare the two triologies films. I think that is why people were dissapointed in the films and music, because they expected it to be like the original. I still have the original soundtrack on a record set, but have nowhere to play it.:D

Devo
07-01-2005, 04:11 PM
Yeah overall IMO the scores for the prequels are inferior much like the films themselves. The action cues are erratic, they jump all over the place in such a way that they aren't hummable like equivalent tracks in the OT scores. Williams still comes up with great themes and on that count I think he delivered with his PT scores. Its just the more incidental/action stuff that sounds pretty much interchangeable with the music he wrote for minority report and AI etc and it drags the rest down.

The themes are amazing, frankly they're too good for what we see on onscreen - these being Duel of the Fates, Anakin's theme, Across the stars, and Battle of the heroes. Initially I felt that so much vocal work just wasn't Star Wars but I've gotten used to it. Its so epic - I only wish the films lived up to it.

One of my favourite parts of Battle of the heroes is 01:20 to 01:30 on the cd. But having only seen the film once I don't remember whats going on onscreen when this bit is played. But just listening to it makes me imagine I'm watching the ideal Star wars film even though that isn't the case. The track does have some of that erratic 'where's it going' stuff which seems to dominate the action cues at 01:41 to 01:46 but it quickly moves on. And then track 4 'Anakin's betrayal' if memory serves was played over the jedi purge. I found it surprisingly effective when I saw the film. The jedi as depicted in the prequels are all thick, pompous w**kers so I didn't expect there to be any impact at their demise. The music made it all salvageable though.

Theres another moment of genius in track 8 'padmes ruminations' at roughly 01:15 to 01:22 where just behind this really eerie and ominous low wailing a note of Across the stars is played. If I were to place the scene this plays over it'd be the bit where Anakin stands alone in the jedi council chamber looking towards Padmes apartment and she stands in her own window looking out. Am I right? I can't remember. So although the anakin/padme romance is uneffective as far as I'm concerned once again Williams' music makes you believe it...even if the feeling subsides immediately afterwards with padme refusing to believe anakin could be a mass murderer or some such nonsense - but look theres only so much even somone like Williams can do.

The opening 20 seconds of Anakin Vs Obi-wan is fantastic. I'm not terribly fond of the way it goes silent suddenly and into the bespin duel bit. These abrupt 'silences' in the middle of tracks may be OK when you're watching the film but if you're solely listening to the music they take you out of it, I find. And theres one of these at 08:49 in the end title track which is very disruptive and it leads into a reprisal of the first few notes of the ANH Throne room fanfare which I think was overkill. He played that tune a bit too much during the track - its not really appropriate for ROTS and it seems to have been put in as a grand closure to all his Star wars work (particularly when you consider that its a far longer track than its equivalents on the other films). Not that it really matters I suppose but this seems a bit odd that the triumphal finale bit of music is stuck on the end of the third film in a series of six.

Lastly, specific to the ROTS soundtrack theres a note of the force theme which has a really tragic feel to it during the end titles at 09:24 to 09:29. Very evocative of what I hoped the prequel trilogy would be - again that it isn't aint Williams' fault.

I've been going on for too long so I won't go into all the other soundtracks at the moment only to say that the opening bit of the end titles on all the films excites me. On Empire Strikes Back it conjures up the brilliance of all that I've just watched whereas on the prequels I tend to only enjoy the music for its own sake as something to listen to. Combined with the disappointement of the actual films the music makes me nostalgiac for the superior original films.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
07-01-2005, 06:29 PM
One of my favourite parts of Battle of the heroes is 01:20 to 01:30 on the cd. But having only seen the film once I don't remember whats going on onscreen when this bit is played.
I love that part too! In the film it's when Ani and Obi are on the table and Obi-Wan gets his saber back, and also when he's looking at Anakin about to jump off the big lava-collection thing.

For me, there are several great musical scenes in the prequels:
TPM
*Duel of the Fates - Every time this song is playing, it's just amazing. Especially when we see Maul standing alone right before he takes his cloak off.
*Gungan celebration - It's weird and quirky, but it's also one of the last "light" scenes in the SW saga before things get darker and much more complex.
AOTC
*Anakin goes nuts - Right after Shmi dies, and Anakin gets seriously angry, the use of strings is absolutely brilliant. It's a great part.
*Palpatine watches the clones - The first time we really hear the Imperial March. It's still as wonderful as it was in the OT, and chronologically, whoever hears it will be blown away. I get serious chills during this part. And the next part, which is . . .
*The wedding - I love how the love theme is in full force here, and it seems like Anakin and Padmé are kind of uncertain about the future, and this song (for me) shows that.
ROTS
*Battle of Coruscant - The war drums and the grand feeling of it all really lends a lot to this sequence. It's kind of like, "Here come the heroes to save the day!"
*On Padmé's balcony - When Padmé's brushing her hair, the song playing in the background is really tragic - it shows that even though these people are optimistic, it's not looking up. Really, it's from when she brushes her hair to when Anakin goes to talk with Obi-Wan about the Outer Rim sieges, I absolutely love this music (it's Anakin's Dream no the CD).
*Waiting in the Council chambers - When Ani and Padmé look at each other from far away, the music is really sad, but also kind of creepy.
*Naming Vader - In this scene, right after Vader gets his name, the Imperial March creeps in a little bit, and there's also the Emperor's theme.
*Order 66 - This sequence is already sad enough, but the music here is absolutely brilliant and adds so much to it. Especially when the youngling asks Anakin what to do.
*Battle of the Heroes - I love this piece and the way it is played in the film! I also love how Duel of the Fates found its way in there as well, since that rules. Though it's technically not part of the battle, or this song, I love the music that plays when Anakin burns and the Emperor gets him. All the hopes of turning Anakin back to the light and bringing balance to the Force are shattered right there.
*The end - All of it, from when we see Vader rise (the same music from Qui-Gon's funeral, but more powerful here), to discussing the plans of the children, to Padmé's funeral (the same funeral music but played more softly and beautifully without the chorus), to building the Death Star (the Imperial March creeping in again), to delivering Leia to the Queen, and most powerfully, to delivering Luke to the Lars family. That scene in ANH gives me chills, and the scene in ROTS does so tenfold.

Overall, as you can probably tell, I like the music from ROTS more than from TPM and AOTC, but those scores were still great. I'm not sure, but either the music from ROTS or ESB is my favorite. :)

JediTricks
07-02-2005, 04:25 AM
Hmm, reading your responses and the replies in this post that I made to some of them, it seems like this thread has gone way off from what I was trying to get at. I absolutely didn't mean "where are these moments" specifically about the music, rather it was about the FEELING that the supplied ANH audio clip gives. I hadn't intended this to be about the various aspects of the scores, I was more asking about that bounce, that feeling, and where it is in the prequels.



To me, it seemed Lucas always intended for the story to be about Anakin, inasmuch as he titled the OT "The Redemption of Anakin Skywalker" and then titled the PT "The Fall of Anakin Skywalker."Um... what? I have never heard that. Lucas himself even says that Star Wars was made about Luke originally on the ANH DVD commentary track, that it's the "hero's journey" and Luke is the hero - granted, Lucas says the saga is also about Vader on the track, but he had also ascribed it the droids, Leia, Obi-Wan, Luke & Leia together and on like that.


However, the story can't really be about a villain half the time, so Luke takes over as new protagonist in ANH.
Therefore, I consider it Luke's theme only when Anakin is Vader, and Anakin's theme only before Luke is born.
Consider it The Hero's Theme. That way, you're never wrong! I see what you mean, I'm not sure I totally agree with it but it's worth accepting for the sake of discussion. So where is this particular cue for you in the prequels?


I kinda know what you mean JT. When I watch the OT I literally get chills when some of the music cues up and I can only think of one such instance in the PT and that is in TPM when Maul appears when the doors open. It's that dramatic change of music instead of a gradual build up to it that makes a particular scene or introduction all that much better. For me, that's a somewhat different moment, it's more defiant and posturing-oriented than brash action-oriented, it's a strong scene and that piece reflects it no doubt but for me not the "unexpectedly flying over the skiff" action/adventure type of thing this cue gives me - is it that sort of feel for you, or more of a general "big change moment"? I'm not entirely sure which you meant because it could be applied to either (or both, but let's leave that complication out of it for now ;)).

BTW, I thought about this last night after posting, and found that TPM has the only prequel moment that comes anywhere near the ballpark for me on this question as well, it's not that close a feeling but when Qui-Gon plows his saber into the Trade Fed ship's bridge door, I went "yeah!" with a little darker version of the feeling I'm talking about in this thread.



Luke's theme is basically Anakin's theme replayed using different instruments. If you think about the themes would have to be similar so there is some sort of tie in between Luke and Anakin. Anakin's theme is "built backwards" from the Darth Vader OT theme, not Luke's theme - this according to Williams's own words, and I listened to it to be sure. The Anakin and Luke themes should have been better tied together though, I think that wasn't done because the connection to Luke wasn't what Williams saw or something.


I think it would have made more sense if Lucas started his tail with the PT because then the shock at Empire would have been even more so. That's probably a discussion for my other thread, the one I linked to in the opening post, so I'll save response for that.



As Slicker said the one moment that REALLY got me was Dual of The Fates from TPM. A great piece of music being used with a chilling vision on the screen. As much as I love Duel of the Fates I didn't really care for its use in AOTC with Anakin on that speeder bike looking for his mom. First, I definitely felt that its reuse in AOTC was totally wrong to me too, but in general that movie's soundtrack had too many borrowed elements I felt. As for DotF in TPM, I don't especially care for it on the Star Wars level, but aside from that my question to Slicker about its correspondance to the feeling from this thread's audio file is asked of you as well. :)


Before ROTS came out I was expecting a huge kick ash song for the duel, my orginal reaction to Battle of the Hero's was... meh! It didn't really do too much for me as a stand along piece. In the context of the film I love it and think it works great. That "meh" was my reaction to it too, and I didn't really notice it in the film so it didn't detract which is better than "meh" right off the bat. ;) I'll have to listen for it when I see the movie again.


I'd say on the whole the OT's soundtrack is 'better' then the PT's. But then again it must be noted that John Williams was working with a 'frest canvas' for E's 4-6 and was restricted by that very canvas he created for 1-3. I don't know if I'd agree with that, Williams got to and chose to take lots of leaps with the TPM score I think, and just sorta limited the other 2 prequel scores to TPM's rather than to the OT's. I'm hardly a music buff though, so my opinion is just 2-cents worth of peanut-gallery-ism ;).



I happened to like the opening space battle music in ROTS. It seemed regal, stirring and you get the feeling something very important is happening. (Well, that's how I heard and felt it.) That sounds like you're describing a different feeling than the one I'm asking about though. Am I wrong?



When comparing the music from the original triology, to the prequels it is very hard to do so. How can you top the soundtrack to the originals. My personal opinion on that question is to incorporate more of the bolder themes from the OT.


I think Williams did a good job with the soundtracks in the prequels, but aside from "duel of fates" in TPM, nothing really stood out. Ouch! That's true though, I suppose.



These abrupt 'silences' in the middle of tracks may be OK when you're watching the film but if you're solely listening to the music they take you out of it, I find. I *heartily* agree with you there, I was looking for the Anakin's Theme track on the Ep 2 soundtrack which supposedly is in the 12th or 13th track, but since they're actually several cues on each track not only could I not find the piece I was looking for but I found myself fast-forwarding through a lot of dead space which was frustrating. The TPM and AOTC soundtrack albums aren't even cut with the movie, which is why fans of the AOTC score are so frustrated since unlike TPM, Sony Classical never released a more "direct from the movie" version of AOTC.



*Anakin goes nuts - Right after Shmi dies, and Anakin gets seriously angry, the use of strings is absolutely brilliant. It's a great part. This is exactly the part of the AOTC soundtrack I was talking about in my reply to Devo, where Anakin's Theme is supposed to resurface, but I was unable to find it there. It's a really odd piece abstract too, I did not get a sense of what was going on AT ALL just listening out of its intended context.


*Battle of Coruscant - The war drums and the grand feeling of it all really lends a lot to this sequence. It's kind of like, "Here come the heroes to save the day!" Hmm, the drums felt kinda "evil is just over the horizon" to me, which until I just typed that part never occurred to me that it might tie in with the overall scheme of the movie's plot (I don't think I would dig it if that were the intended reason though, so I probably am off on that).


Ok, let me bookend this post by saying once again that my intention with this thread was asking about where the FEELING that comes from that piece of music is in ROTS and the prequels, not that specific cue (though if you find it in the PT, please let us know where as I am now very curious to see if it's in there in any fashion beyond the main title) or about the musical aspects.

tagmac
07-02-2005, 01:50 PM
The most disappointing thing for me about the CD was that they left out the War Drums right before the Battle of Coruscant music kicks in. They should have incorporated it into track 1, or given it a track by itself entitled "Battle of Coruscant." Granted, most of the theme is on there, but I had to really listen for it the first time I played the CD.

.....but then, when have the CD's EVER had the score in the correct order, aside from those two disc sets we got of the OT several years back.

JediTricks
07-03-2005, 11:37 PM
I suppose this thread's side-tracking is my fault, my opening post wasn't clear enough. Oh well.


Tagmac, if the war drums aren't on the CD, is it possible that they weren't part of the score and instead added by Burtt as a sound effect?

2-1B
07-04-2005, 12:51 AM
Those beats came across to me as sound effects so I understand why they are absent from the soundtrack.

JediTricks
07-04-2005, 01:10 AM
Now I'm really killing my thread's initial intent :nerv: , but if they're part of the sound effects then they almost certainly have a real purpose that may tie to something on-screen or intended to be just off-screen. I wonder what Ben Burtt's gonna say about that, somebody should ask him on sw.com.

2-1B
07-04-2005, 01:26 AM
JT I played that clip and I get that "feeling" from many scenes but I'm not sure what the point would be in listing them all. lol

But since this thread is in the ROTS section I'll just mention the entire run on the Invisible Hand by Obi and Ani . . . there's already an indepth thread on that, though. :)

I'm a big fan of the prequel music so I don't feel that the OT stuff is all that superior. DotF, AtS, and BotH are all top notch themes for me and I rate them equally with the Imperial March and the Main Theme. Superb job by Jay Dubs on scoring all 6 films. :)

JediTricks
07-04-2005, 01:37 AM
What specific moments, if any? You mean the space part, right? I never expected anybody would pick a "first moment in the movie" type answer simply because I thought of the "feeling" coming from a shift of what's been building up, and of course the scene you mention has NOTHING built up before it because it's literally first.

2-1B
07-04-2005, 02:22 AM
Well, actually both the space part AND the physical run through the ship as they look for the Chancellor. :)

I loved AOTC so when the scroll came up for ROTS and it referenced "two Jedi Knights" and then showed my two favorite characters from AOTC, Obi and Ani, I was glad to be back with my heroes. I see what you're saying about it being the beginning of the movie and having no build up in that sense - very true :) - but since I loved AOTC I took that with me since this new film was a continuation.

As for their hijinks on the Hand, I loved the adventure feel of it and for me it is built up by the previously mentioned space part. I loved the scenes as they made their way to Dooku's area and after all the Dooku and Grievous stuff, it returns to that same feeling as they make their way throughout the ship trying to find an exit. In comparison to the OT it reminded me of running through the Death Star in ANH. :)

DiminutiveJedi
07-05-2005, 01:24 AM
To me, it seemed Lucas always intended for the story to be about Anakin, inasmuch as he titled the OT "The Redemption of Anakin Skywalker" and then titled the PT "The Fall of Anakin Skywalker."
Um... what? I have never heard that. Lucas himself even says that Star Wars was made about Luke originally on the ANH DVD commentary track, that it's the "hero's journey" and Luke is the hero - granted, Lucas says the saga is also about Vader on the track, but he had also ascribed it the droids, Leia, Obi-Wan, Luke & Leia together and on like that.


However, the story can't really be about a villain half the time, so Luke takes over as new protagonist in ANH.
Therefore, I consider it Luke's theme only when Anakin is Vader, and Anakin's theme only before Luke is born.
Consider it The Hero's Theme. That way, you're never wrong!
I see what you mean, I'm not sure I totally agree with it but it's worth accepting for the sake of discussion. So where is this particular cue for you in the prequels?

Lucas gave the "titles" of the trilogies on either the VHS of the original trilogy (final release) or the Special Editions (first release) in the little featurettes before the films.
As for the "cue" in the prequels, I'm not quite sure what you mean to ask of me. Do you want me to define what scene in the PT made me think of "Luke's Theme" as Anakin's?

JediTricks
07-05-2005, 08:31 PM
As for the "cue" in the prequels, I'm not quite sure what you mean to ask of me. Do you want me to define what scene in the PT made me think of "Luke's Theme" as Anakin's?Yes, either literally or just as that feeling it creates.


Lucas gave the "titles" of the trilogies on either the VHS of the original trilogy (final release) or the Special Editions (first release) in the little featurettes before the films.Special Editions VHS, I remember now. I didn't take them as "titles" so much as descriptions he came up with in the interview, he didn't actually assign them on the movies themselves (he didn't add that to the picture, I mean), just in the conversation he was having.

DiminutiveJedi
07-06-2005, 01:29 AM
That was what I meant about the "titles." They were designations he used in conversation. But they reflect how he (and I) feel about the movie.
As for when Luke's Theme become Anakin's in my mind, I'd have to say every time it's used in the PT, but especially in AOTC at the wedding. It just feels to me to be the Heroe's Theme.
I've said that before, though.