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vader68
07-06-2005, 09:57 AM
After seeing ROTS twice now, everything was summed up and it all made since,except for one thing. It was never explained why when Obi wan and Yoda died, they simply dissappeared. When the other Jedi died their bodies are still there, and nothing happens to them.(Aside from the fact that they are dead). Did I miss something along the way or was this not made clear. I know at the end of ROTS yoda told kenobi how he could talk to QUI GON, but that was it. Even Vader/Anakin's body was burned at the end of ROTJ. If I missed something along the way, can someone please clue me in.

Ryno
07-06-2005, 10:13 AM
I could be totally wrong on this, but when Yoda & Obi-Wan died, didn't they kind of willingly die - becoming "one with the force"? This is something that Qui-Gon probably communicated to both Yoda & Obi-Wan through the afterlife. Anakin/Vader doesn't disappear because he hasn't been given the knowledge of this that Obi-Wan & Yoda were.

I guess it's a bit of Star Wars irony because Anakin was looking for a way to cheat death with the Sith and here the Jedi had kind of figured out their own way.

TheDarthVader
07-06-2005, 10:41 AM
I too would have loved to have known the secret to the jedi afterlife.

B.
TDV

JimJamBonds
07-06-2005, 10:44 AM
You didn't miss anything per say, as Ryno said this is knowledge that Obi and Yoda learn in the time between ROTS and their deaths. Heck maybe Yoda even knows how to do the ghost trick as he says to Obi "in your solitude I have training for you."?

Darth Alex
07-06-2005, 11:29 AM
The only thing we missed was a ghostly Qui-Gon talking to Yoda. If this is a cut scene on the DVD, that would make up for its lack in the film.
I feel burned because at multiple points in various press sources it was confirmed that Liam Neeson shot footage for Ep3 with Lucas.
The novel covered this whole Jedi in the afterlife thing much better than Yoda doing a "hmmmmmm, by the way Obi-wan.....hmmmmmmmm..ran into Qui-Gon's voice while toking back here" scene at the end of the film!

2-1B
07-06-2005, 12:48 PM
I'm glad Qui-Gon isn't in the movie, because then people would be *****ing about how his ghost is in the PT but not the OT . . . so we hear his voice in the PT and that's good enough. The ghostly appearance thing is something Ben and Yoda learn after ROTS.

JimJamBonds
07-06-2005, 01:12 PM
I'm glad Qui-Gon isn't in the movie, because then people would be *****ing about how his ghost is in the PT but not the OT . . . so we hear his voice in the PT and that's good enough. The ghostly appearance thing is something Ben and Yoda learn after ROTS.

And let us not forget the outcry that would have been heard had Yoda said "...I am now your Padawan." (that was said to Qui-Gon in the book)

Elliejabbapop
07-06-2005, 02:21 PM
I always knew that, whereas Obi and Yoda were ready to die, the others weren't, which was not connected with the knowledge of becoming one with the Force (of course, that was then, maybe it was implied whereas now it's evident).

DiminutiveJedi
07-06-2005, 02:50 PM
I think what happened was that when Yoda and Obi-Wan learned how to keep their physical selves after death, they had to keep their bodies whole. That is why their bodies disappeared when they died.
Qui-Gon didn't know this, so they burned his body and he could only retain his conciousness after death.

Let's just not talk about Anakin.

El Chuxter
07-06-2005, 02:51 PM
Qui-Gon teaches them to retain their identities. He apparently learned it from the teachings of a shaman of the Whills (still unidentified, but my money's on ET's race). Presumably, they study more intently than Qui-Gon was able to, and can more or less take their physical forms into the afterlife so they can appear as spirits, not merely as voices (as is the case with Qui-Gon).

(Since George didn't explain it, it's all EU. That info's from the ROTS novelization, ROTS graphic novel, Jedi Trial, Dark Rendezvous, and Last of the Jedi: The Desperate Mission.)

Pendo
07-06-2005, 04:25 PM
Episode III Cut Scene:

INT. POLIS MASSA - OBSERVATION DOME - NIGHT

On the isolated asteroid of Polis Massa, YODA meditates.

YODA: Failed to stop the Sith Lord, I have. Still much to learn, there is...

QUI-GON (V.O.): Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith.

YODA: Eternal consciousness.

QUI-GON (V.O.): The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed.

YODA: ...to become one with the Force, and influence still have... a power greater than all, it is.

QUI-GON (V.O.): You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self.

YODA: A great Jedi Master, you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become.

YODA thinks about this for a minute, then BAIL ORGANA enters the room and breaks his meditation.

BAIL ORGANA: Excuse me, Master Yoda. Obi-Wan Kenobi has made contact.



I wish that was in the movie. Fingers crossed for it's reincorporation for the DVD.

PENDO!

vader68
07-07-2005, 08:42 AM
That certainly would clear things up if they keep it for the dvd

jlw
07-07-2005, 09:36 PM
I think that is THE most important scene in ROTS and could not believe it got cut. We were all told that it would be explained why the Jedi in the PT did not disappear into a Spirit like Yoda & Obi-Wan and then this one scene that totally explains it was cut. I sure hope it is put back into the dvd, not just in the deleted scenes. If the scene is put back into the dvd, does that make it "canon"?

stillakid
07-07-2005, 10:09 PM
Answers to all the unanswered questions, plot holes, and inconsistencies can be found in the Expanded Universe. Check your local listings. :)

JimJamBonds
07-07-2005, 10:51 PM
I think that is THE most important scene in ROTS and could not believe it got cut. We were all told that it would be explained why the Jedi in the PT did not disappear into a Spirit like Yoda & Obi-Wan and then this one scene that totally explains it was cut. I sure hope it is put back into the dvd, not just in the deleted scenes. If the scene is put back into the dvd, does that make it "canon"?

Your own council you will have to keep to determine if it is canon. :) Some say only the orginal version of the OT is canon, others say the SE are. As for my own thoughts I say the SE are and if that scene would be added to ROTS then that too is canon.

jlw
07-07-2005, 10:55 PM
Man, I don't wanna get into a whole EU vs Movies thing; but I just think the EU as a whole is a bunch of crap. Sure there are a few things that are cool (I loved Shadows of the Empire); but I don't even read the books or comics anymore. The only EU stuff I ever had an interest in was if it helped flesh out the movies; like the Clone Wars or Shadows of the Empire. But even some of the "fleshing out" stuff was just crap, like "Vader's Quest". And any of the EU stuff that's suppose to take place after Ep. 6 I don't care for. I read some of the T'imothy Z'ahn books, and just hated them. If you've seen the latest issue of Toyfare they have a pretty good outtake on the EU, "No, not Luke... Luuke" Give me a break!

jlw
07-07-2005, 10:59 PM
Your own council you will have to keep to determine if it is canon. :) Some say only the orginal version of the OT is canon, others say the SE are. As for my own thoughts I say the SE are and if that scene would be added to ROTS then that too is canon.

Yeah I think the SE are canon, even if I don't like Greedo shooting first. The newest DVDs to me are canon, they "seem" to be Lucas' final version of the movies. So, to me any additions (like the extended pod race scenes) are canon. That's why I'd like to see the Qui-Gon Jinn scene added into the actual movie on the Ep. 3 dvd

JimJamBonds
07-07-2005, 11:28 PM
Man, I don't wanna get into a whole EU vs Movies thing; but I just think the EU as a whole is a bunch of crap. Sure there are a few things that are cool (I loved Shadows of the Empire); but I don't even read the books or comics anymore. The only EU stuff I ever had an interest in was if it helped flesh out the movies; like the Clone Wars or Shadows of the Empire. But even some of the "fleshing out" stuff was just crap, like "Vader's Quest". And any of the EU stuff that's suppose to take place after Ep. 6 I don't care for. I read some of the T'imothy Z'ahn books, and just hated them. If you've seen the latest issue of Toyfare they have a pretty good outtake on the EU, "No, not Luke... Luuke" Give me a break!

I agree jlw, I've read the novels for the 6 movies and that fleshed out the stories as you put it. Labrith of Evil wasn't too bad either but for the most part I think the EU is just plain silly. I read the first two Zahn books but listened to the third on tape. :bored: Some of the books are ok, they are a nice way of continuing the saga. But in my mind but the VAST majority that I've read/listened to just plain old stink.

Veers
07-07-2005, 11:58 PM
The world will never know.

Devo
07-09-2005, 11:19 AM
I think that is THE most important scene in ROTS and could not believe it got cut. We were all told that it would be explained why the Jedi in the PT did not disappear into a Spirit like Yoda & Obi-Wan and then this one scene that totally explains it was cut. I sure hope it is put back into the dvd, not just in the deleted scenes. If the scene is put back into the dvd, does that make it "canon"?

Sorry but I must disagree jlw if Qui Qon has supposedly mastered this discipline how come he doesn't disappear when he dies ?

jlw
07-09-2005, 06:42 PM
The reason Qui-Gon did not become one with the Force in TPM is because he didn't know of this power then. As explained in the deleted scene/script (see top of page 2), Qui-Gon learned this in the "Netherworld" i.e. after death. His spirit went to the "Netherworld" and he communicates with a "Shaman of the Whills" who teaches him how to return to the real world. Its as if, in Greek mythology, a person dies and their spirit crosses the River Styx into Hades; but somehow they figure out a way to cross back over the River Styx (still as a spirit i.e. departed dead) into the living world.

Devo
07-10-2005, 09:33 AM
The reason Qui-Gon did not become one with the Force in TPM is because he didn't know of this power then. As explained in the deleted scene/script (see top of page 2), Qui-Gon learned this in the "Netherworld" i.e. after death. His spirit went to the "Netherworld" and he communicates with a "Shaman of the Whills" who teaches him how to return to the real world. Its as if, in Greek mythology, a person dies and their spirit crosses the River Styx into Hades; but somehow they figure out a way to cross back over the River Styx (still as a spirit i.e. departed dead) into the living world.

I would have assumed that the ability to retain consciousness after death would be something a jedi would have to learn before he/she died and if they fail to learn this its tough luck, death is then oblivion. If they all have an afterlife anyway - that is not oblivion. Any consciousness after death would mean that there is no such thing as oblivion. So it seems the only thing Qui-gon has over other jedi is that he can have his voice heard in the real world and Obiwan and Yoda can be both seen and heard. And if Qui-gon can be dead and learn this ability what stops every other jedi doing the same??? I don't get it. And all of this speculative crap could have been avoided if Lucas had simply had Qui-gon disappear out of Obiwans arms at the end of TPM and if every other lightside jedi who died also disappeared. There was no need for any of this 'qui-gon is the first' nonsense.

Devo
07-11-2005, 07:11 PM
Does anyone have anything to add or argue with? I'd particularly like to know what can be said about my point that if Qui-gon can have died and then learn the ability to become one with the force why can't every other Jedi do the same? Even if Qui-gon was the first what stopped the rest of the dead jedi subsequently jumping on the bangwagon?

vader68
07-11-2005, 10:14 PM
I just have trouble with the fact that after thousands of years of jedi, Qui-gon is the first one to be able to do this. This subject should have been explained more in the movies, and not by reading it in EU books.

JimJamBonds
07-11-2005, 11:29 PM
Does anyone have anything to add or argue with? I'd particularly like to know what can be said about my point that if Qui-gon can have died and then learn the ability to become one with the force why can't every other Jedi do the same? Even if Qui-gon was the first what stopped the rest of the dead jedi subsequently jumping on the bangwagon?

I'd say part of it could be simply that Qui-Gon wanted to 'cross back over.' As far as the Jedi go he was rather 'radical', I don't think it would be an attempt at gaining more power as Dooku would have rather its an attempt to help out. Qui-Gon still had an interest being that he was the one who found and brought forth the choosen one. This is all speculation on my part here but I'd its this interst in the choosen one is what causes him to try to help out. Who knowns what would have happened had Anakin stayed a slave but perhaps it was Qui-Gon's guilt for brining him to the Jedi that caused him to learn these new powers. Perhaps his belief that Anakin would bring balance to the force is the reason???

Jek Porky 2002
07-12-2005, 09:33 AM
What is this "cannon" word that everybody keeps throwing about, what the hell does that mean?

JimJamBonds
07-12-2005, 09:38 AM
What is this "cannon" word that everybody keeps throwing about, what the hell does that mean?

In a nutshell what "IS" Star Wars and what is not. Do only the OT count? OT Special Edition? Or is everything that has ever come out as a book, movie, comic, article etc. count? It is the same sense as it is in religion.

Main Entry: 1can·on http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?canon001.wav=canon'))
Pronunciation: 'ka-n&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin, from Latin, ruler, rule, model, standard, from Greek kanOn
1 a : a regulation or dogma decreed by a church council b : a provision of canon law
3 [Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, standard] a : an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture b : the authentic works of a writer c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works <the canon of great literature>
4 a : an accepted principle or rule b : a criterion or standard of judgment c : a body of principles, rules, standards, or norms
5 [Late Greek kanOn, from Greek, model] : a contrapuntal musical composition in two or more voice parts in which the melody is imitated exactly and completely by the successive voices though not always at the same pitch
synonym see LAW (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=law)

El Chuxter
07-12-2005, 11:08 AM
I have an apparently unique view of the EU. I read as much of it as I can and decide for myself what's "right" and what's wrong.

If it's stupid, it didn't happen.

If it's well-written and interesting, but contradicted by later films, it happened, but not in the way it's described.

If it's good and not contradicted by sources higher up in the scale of the canon, it happened.

stillakid
07-12-2005, 12:02 PM
If it's stupid, it didn't happen.



In that light, what are these "prequels" everyone keeps talking about? ;)

jlw
07-12-2005, 07:05 PM
I think one of the reasons Qui-Gon was the one to tap into coming back from the afterlife (at least in GL's eyes) is his closeness to the "Living Force." See, to GL there is no "Star Wars" before Ep. 1. Issues like, "Why didn't someone years before Qui-Gon learn how to come back from the Netherworld?" are not issues to GL because he's only telling the story as detailed in Eps. 1 thru 6.

As far as the term "canon"; we've borrowed this term from religion. "Canon" being what is "biblical" i.e. written in the Bible and "non-canon" or "apocraphyl" being written in other religious writings.

So, as far as the "Star Wars Universe" is concerned; what is actually "canon" is what is in the movies only. For example, originally Owen Lars was going to be Obi-Wan's brother. It even made it into the script; but did not make it into the movie. Therefore, it is not "canon" that Owen Lars and Obi-Wan are brothers; as explained in the PT. "Non-canon"; "aprocraphyl"; or "EU" are things in the Star Wars Universe like Knights of the Old Republic, Shadows of the Empire, Zahn Trilogy, New Jedi Order, etc.

But then there are those things which are first mentioned in "non-canon" or "EU" books that make it into the movies, like "Courascant," Aayla being in Ep. 2 & 3, Quinlon Vos being mentioned in Ep. 3; and the "Outrider" being seen in Ep. 4. So, the question then is, since characters like "Quinlon Vos" are referred to in the movies does GL accept Quinlon's back-story as "canon." And then, books like "Shadows of the Empire" were commissioned by Lucasfilm to be the "official" story to tie Ep. 5 and 6 together; so does that make "Shadows" "canon"?

So really a lot of this is just a matter of personal opinion. In my opinion, all the books written thus far concerning the events after Ep. 6 are moot. To me, none of them took place. I like the character Mara Jade, but don't accept her back story; don't accept Chewbacca's death; etc. The only EU stuff to me that has any real validity are stories like "Outlander;" "Twilight;" the Clone Wars comics/cartoon and "Shadows of the Emipire" because characters or places from these are actually brought into the movies. I personaly would accept the "Star Wars Holiday Special" as more "canon" as any of the Zahn books or the New Jedi Order. And I think the worst EU story of all was "Vader's Quest" - what a dissappointment!

Devo
07-13-2005, 08:43 AM
See, to GL there is no "Star Wars" before Ep. 1. Issues like, "Why didn't someone years before Qui-Gon learn how to come back from the Netherworld?" are not issues to GL because he's only telling the story as detailed in Eps. 1 thru 6.

I'm afraid I can't buy that either. In ANH Obi-wan says "for over a thousand generations the jedi knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old republic"....thats a heck of a lot of jedi, referred to in the original template of what is Star Wars canon - the first film. In that line Obi-wan speaks of a history that goes back way before Episode I.

If what you say was to be considered true then once again we have GL totally neglecting to 'think things through'. Qui-gon is the first? What about the countless jedi before him? George says 'no forget about them, they're not in the film they don't count'....OK so don't mention them in any the films. Don't 'imply' any kind of era that you can't cover in your narrative if what you do cover is going to contradict it or call it into question.

As to my question about why, if Qui-gon learned new abilities after dying, what stopped the other jedi, JimJamBonds seems to be the only one who tried to address it. Obviously everything we talk about here is speculation because none of this was made in any way clear in the films but the idea that the rest of the dead jedi 'just weren't bothered' seems like the most credible....but only because I can think of nothing else to explain it. Once Qui-gon does it it seems to become quite popular in his circle of 'still-living' friends...if other jedi had been alive at that point and had opportunity to learn from the late Qui-gon would they really say 'nah, I'm alright with just the bogstandard jedi abilities'???