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2-1B
07-23-2005, 02:22 AM
I was thinking about this awhile ago and forgot to post it until a new thread in the OT forum reminded me to do so.

The question came across my mind, Who all knows that Anakin became Vader ? Specifically, who among the Imperial ranks is aware ?

I say nobody knows, only Palps.

In ROTS Padme is watching the action at the Temple when Threepio comes to her and says that the chancellor's office said Anakin had returned to the Jedi Temple. The same Temple where many Jedi were killed. Of course, Anakin did leave there and head to Mustafar as the pre-suited Vader BUT the only people to encounter him and see what he looked like were corpses in a matter of short time.

Therefore, it is my theory that nobody really knows that Vader was Anakin (except for maybe a few clones that helped him into that capsule ?). Anyway, I don't even think that Tarkin necessarily knows, other than Vader is Palpatine's new employee.

As a matter of record, I think it would be noted that Anakin was killed during the raid on the Temple.

decadentdave
07-23-2005, 03:56 AM
When Anakin goes to Mustafar to "take care of" the Separatist leaders, they are expecting the arrival of Lord Vader. Of course, he kills them all. It's possible word got out about Lord Vader's deeds at the Jedi Temple and the Mustafar Massacre and its association to the name "Vader" which gave way to his sinister reputation throughout the galaxy but I don't think anyone ever made the connection directly that it was a fallen Jedi named Anakin Skywalker who was responsible, otherwise the name "Skywalker" would have become synonymous to these tragic events and would have shunned Luke's namesake and placed his existence in even greater danger. The Rebel Alliance would have cursed his name and grudgingly held him accountable for the proverbial Sins of the Father. Only Sidious, Obi-Wan and Yoda knew the truth and that is the reason why they kept it so closely hidden. As far as Bail Organa is concerned, he only suspects that Obi-Wan killed Anakin on Mustafar and has agreed to remain silent and to take the care of his offspring. I don't believe even Bail knows about Darth Vader's existence at this point, but he eventually will. So what Obi-Wan said was indeed true... from a certain point of view.

And speaking of Sins of the Father... I can't help but think when I watch A New Hope that when Luke is attacked by the Tusken Raider that there is something much more deliberate about it now... that the name "Skywalker" was revered throughout their clans as the one who massacred their encapment and they are out for revenge (but it doesn't explain why they left his unconscious body by the speeder). Interesting thought though. Lucas was right... the Prequels have made me look at the original trilogy from a whole new perspective.

stillakid
07-23-2005, 10:27 AM
I was thinking about this awhile ago and forgot to post it until a new thread in the OT forum reminded me to do so.

The question came across my mind, Who all knows that Anakin became Vader ? Specifically, who among the Imperial ranks is aware ?

I say nobody knows, only Palps.

In ROTS Padme is watching the action at the Temple when Threepio comes to her and says that the chancellor's office said Anakin had returned to the Jedi Temple. The same Temple where many Jedi were killed. Of course, Anakin did leave there and head to Mustafar as the pre-suited Vader BUT the only people to encounter him and see what he looked like were corpses in a matter of short time.

Therefore, it is my theory that nobody really knows that Vader was Anakin (except for maybe a few clones that helped him into that capsule ?). Anyway, I don't even think that Tarkin necessarily knows, other than Vader is Palpatine's new employee.

As a matter of record, I think it would be noted that Anakin was killed during the raid on the Temple.
You're assuming that anyone noticed Skywalker when he was alive. For all practical purposes, the Jedi were essentially nameless, faceless, generic "cops" who strutted arrogantly around the galaxy solving crimes with witty banter as their guide (or was that BAD BOYS?). Point being, with the Order 66 "purge" and the partial destruction of the Jedi Temple, anyone who would "miss" the Jedi as a whole or even a single individual (like NoRealMotivation-akin) wouldn't think twice most likely believing that they were all killed off in one way or another.




And speaking of Sins of the Father... I can't help but think when I watch A New Hope that when Luke is attacked by the Tusken Raider that there is something much more deliberate about it now... that the name "Skywalker" was revered throughout their clans as the one who massacred their encapment and they are out for revenge (but it doesn't explain why they left his unconscious body by the speeder). Interesting thought though. Lucas was right... the Prequels have made me look at the original trilogy from a whole new perspective.

What makes you think that the Sandpeople ever learned the name "Skywalker" much less gave a rats arse had they ever found out? The only "deliberate" thing about Luke's attack is that he was an easy target and they wanted to ransack his stuff. No more, no less.

But I'll join you in one thing, the Prequels have made me look at the Original Trilogy from a whole new perspective, that being I realize just how good the OT is and that it was lightning in a bottle. :cool:

Ji'dai
07-23-2005, 10:58 AM
You're assuming that anyone noticed Skywalker when he was alive. For all practical purposes, the Jedi were essentially nameless, faceless, generic "cops" who strutted arrogantly around the galaxy solving crimes with witty banter

That doesn't jive with EU sources. In the ROTS novelization, Kenobi and Skywalker are celebrities of the daily holonews reports. Adults and children the galaxy over talk about their exploits and wager on who is the better of the two. (I didn't write this stuff, so don't blame me :D)

Also, Xizor was aware that Vader's name was Skywalker in Shadows of the Empire. He figured out the Luke/Vader relationship and decided to start hunting for the kid himself.

Tarkin probably knows that Vader was Skywalker. Tarkin doesn't believe Kenobi to be still alive at the time of ANH, but Vader insists that he is not only alive, but he is on board the Death Star since he felt the presence of his old master. So I'm assuming Tarkin probably knows about Vader's origins.

stillakid
07-23-2005, 11:17 AM
That doesn't jive with EU sources.
What does? :rolleyes:

;)

JimJamBonds
07-23-2005, 12:54 PM
I don't think Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan and Anakin were faceless Jedi. The rank and file were but I think the 'big boys' would be known to the general public to some degree. I won't go as far as the ROTS novel saying Obi and Ani are celeb's but, it would be hard for the exploits not to be known. It might be only on a trickle down effect but there would be exceptions to the majority of nameless Jedi.

2-1B
07-24-2005, 02:11 AM
I can't help but think when I watch A New Hope that when Luke is attacked by the Tusken Raider that there is something much more deliberate about it now... that the name "Skywalker" was revered throughout their clans as the one who massacred their encapment and they are out for revenge (but it doesn't explain why they left his unconscious body by the speeder).

The problem I have with that is the fact that Anakin killed them all, so who would be around to tell tales of who did the slaughter ? lol
(Unless another camp knew the name of Anakin's mum and put two and two together ;) )


Tarkin probably knows that Vader was Skywalker. Tarkin doesn't believe Kenobi to be still alive at the time of ANH, but Vader insists that he is not only alive, but he is on board the Death Star since he felt the presence of his old master. So I'm assuming Tarkin probably knows about Vader's origins.

Good point, I forgot about that scene from ANH . . . nice job.

stillakid
07-24-2005, 10:01 AM
Tarkin probably knows that Vader was Skywalker. Tarkin doesn't believe Kenobi to be still alive at the time of ANH, but Vader insists that he is not only alive, but he is on board the Death Star since he felt the presence of his old master. So I'm assuming Tarkin probably knows about Vader's origins.

I disagree that Tarkin knows about Vader's "true" identity for this reason: he doesn't really give a sh**. This whole "Jedi-Force" thingie is irrelevant nonsense to him. So Vader could have said, "you know, I used to be a cross-dresser before this get up" and Tarkin would have nodded his head and uttered an apathetic, "uh huh." Vader's just in the way...a lumbering figure in black who is prone to fits of juvenile ****-strutting if anyone gets on his bad side. Tarkin sees fit to use Vader as a tool if necessary, but other than that, anything that comes out of the black mask can be dismissed most of the time.

So when Vader tells Tarks about "the presence of his old master," Tarkin couldn't really care less who or what Vader is talking about. If somebody from Vader's past is on board, then whatever. Maybe that's useful information to help achieve the greater goal, maybe not. The origins of Vader's words are immaterial to a man like Tarkin. He's got more important things to do.

Ji'dai
07-24-2005, 12:35 PM
Sure, Vader's origins are of no consequence to Tarkin. He's a ruthlessly practical man; what matters is that Vader is a weapon and a quite useful one at times.
INTERIOR: DEATH STAR -- CONFERENCE ROOM.

Darth Vader paces the room as Governor Tarkin sits at the far
end of the conference table.

VADER: He is here...

TARKIN: Obi-Wan Kenobi! What makes you think so?

VADER: A tremor in the Force. The last time I felt it was in the
presence of my old master.

TARKIN: Surely he must be dead by now.

VADER: Don't underestimate the power of the Force.

TARKIN: The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe.
You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion.
Tarkin was alive at the Empire's creation, so he was around during the last years of the Jedi and likely knew of Kenobi. Since Skywalker was so close to his boss, Palpatine, he was probably smart enough to deduce Skywalker had become the man in the black suit later on.

stillakid
07-24-2005, 01:11 PM
Since Skywalker was so close to his boss, Palpatine, he was probably smart enough to deduce Skywalker had become the man in the black suit later on.

I don't buy that either. While we certainly know how "close" the two of them were, all of those meetings were generally when they were alone. There is nothing to make us believe that some random officer would be aware of who Palpatine was spending his free time with. Undoubtedly Palpatine had many "advisors" and many Jedi coming in and out of the office, so for Tarkin to take notice of this one punk kid would first require that he cares enough to notice and then to actually commit such a useless piece of information to memory. Vader literally could have been any one of a hundred people as far as anyone outside the inner circle is concerned. He's just another black-hatted bad guy whose origins are inconsequential to all but a scant few.

Slicker
07-24-2005, 04:49 PM
I was thinking of this thread while trying to go to sleep last night and remembered that Owen and Beru may have known that Anakin turned into Vader. Although the whole "he's just like his father" and "that's what I'm afraid of" could have been in response to Anakins slaughter of the Tuskens. Just thought I'd throw some more gasoline on the fire.:D

Rocketboy
07-24-2005, 05:44 PM
But as far as what we see, Padme and Palpatine are the only ones that know about the Tusken slaughter.

Ji'dai
07-24-2005, 06:12 PM
Jawas or other farmers could have stumbled upon the Tusken camp and spread the news of the massacre. Klieg and Owen put two and two together and realize Anakin was likely responsible since he did recover Shmi's body. Whether Kenobi later told the Lars about Luke's father and his fall to the dark side is hard to say. They knew Anakin was a Jedi, so they could have assumed he had died during the Clone Wars. Which is why they didn't want Luke to go off and get himself killed.

Chaddymac
07-24-2005, 08:16 PM
I think Owen and Beru knew. I also think Tarkin knew. Obviously, since no one said, "Hey man, aren't you Anakin Skywalker? NOBODY pouts like that kid..." it's all up for debate. But no matter who knew the truth, it's fair to say that everyone kept it to themselves. And of that list, Owen and Beru definitely act like their keeping a secret (when viewed through the lense of the prequel trilogy) and Tarkin and Vader only had that exchange when no one else was in earshot. And I'd bet, from the way Vader responds when Luke calls him Anakin in ROTJ that he probably would've force-choked anyone who called him that to his face...that he wasn't related to.

Kidhuman
07-25-2005, 12:51 AM
Everyone knew Anakin became Vader. After all the clones knew it and probably spread the word.

decadentdave
07-25-2005, 12:48 PM
Here's my problem with this whole thing...

Immediately following the events of Episode III, NOBODY knew that Anakin was still alive EXCEPT for Sidious. As far as Obi-Wan is concerned, he left Anakin for dead on Mustafar. Now what bugs me is the fact that he delivers Luke and hands him to Beru and no words are ever exchanged. We can only assume that Kenobi called ahead and explained the situation, "Hey guys, I'm coming to bring you Anakin's child to raise because he went to the Dark Side and I had to kill him for betraying the Jedi and slaughtering younglings." In A New Hope, Owen has great resentment toward Obi-Wan. How did this happen? Is he angry at Kenobi for killing his nephew and sticking him with the responsibility of raising his son? In the original book it was described that Owen was Kenobi's brother. The films make no mention of this so as far as continuity is concerned, we must disregard this fact. Still, there is a great amount of animosity between Owen and Kenobi that is never accounted for. The galaxy has yet to know about this mysterious Darth Vader character that rumors describe this new Sith Lord killed the Separatist leaders on Mustafar and helped lead the attack on the Jedi Temple. Vader really hasn't made his presence known at this point which will probably be chronicled in the upcoming television series. The Clones really don't know much about anything, they are just following the orders of the Emperor who told them that "Lord Vader" would be leading the assault on the Jedi Temple when Order 66 is executed. All that Tarkin is aware of this Darth Vader is that he is the Emperor's new Sith Apprentice and he could probably care less because he is far too concerned with his Death Star project.

JimJamBonds
07-25-2005, 12:53 PM
Immediately following the events of Episode III, NOBODY knew that Anakin was still alive EXCEPT for Sidious.

... and the clones that found him/brought him back to the capital planet... and the droids that put him in the suit.

decadentdave
07-25-2005, 01:22 PM
How do the Clones know who this guy is? For all they know, they went to Mustafar with Sidious and recovered a badly injured body and brought him back to Coruscant. They never SAW him transformed into the cybernetic Vader. As for the droids, I was under the impression Vader crushed everything in the room out of rage. Even if a droid survived, it isn't likely to go spreading the word and gossiping amongst the other droids "Oh.... I know a secret! Anakin Skywalker IS Darth Vader! Shhhhh! Spread the word!" Get real. It's a freaking droid, it only does what it is programmed to do.

JimJamBonds
07-25-2005, 01:31 PM
2-1B's eye's can still be seen, he seems to be standing and still operational after the Vader crushing. The clones would have seen Vader going into the operating room and then come out in the suit. Sure they didn't see the work being done on him but they should be able to put 2 + 2 together.

decadentdave
07-25-2005, 01:42 PM
TWO-ONEBEE!!!! OH MY GOD!!!! IT'S TWO-ONEBEE'S FAULT!!!! HE KNOWS EVERYTHING!!!!

Please.

How do you know there are actually Clones standing guard right outside the door? How do you know that THEY know that the body they found was Anakin? And WHY should they even care?!?! They are mindless clones that follow orders. As if they are going to go have a few beers after work at the local cantina and start blurting out that Anakin is Darth Vader to everone and their Wookie.

JimJamBonds
07-25-2005, 02:26 PM
Knowing it and saying something are two different things. That goes for droids, clones or whom or whatever. How would the clones know? Well a squad of clones bring in/guard a limbless burnt near corpse of a human into a medical facility. It would seem that that guy isn't around anymore and hey who's the new guy with the super duper Oakland Raider helmet? I haven't seem him since before the corpse went into surgery. :eek:

El Chuxter
07-25-2005, 02:35 PM
Once again, the EU must rush to the rescue of the PT story! :)

In Last of the Jedi: The Desperate Mission, SW scribe Jude Watson explains that Obi-Wan was living as a hermit, believing he'd killed Anakin and that the Emperor would come for Luke if he learned of his existence. He happened across a recording of a HoloNet report a few months after the end of ROTS that featured Vader prominently. He had a bad feeling about who this lightsaber-wielding monster was even before hearing the name "Darth Vader" confirmed it for him.

Chaddymac
07-25-2005, 05:02 PM
Once again, the EU must rush to the rescue of the PT story! :)

In Last of the Jedi: The Desperate Mission, SW scribe Jude Watson explains that Obi-Wan was living as a hermit, believing he'd killed Anakin and that the Emperor would come for Luke if he learned of his existence. He happened across a recording of a HoloNet report a few months after the end of ROTS that featured Vader prominently. He had a bad feeling about who this lightsaber-wielding monster was even before hearing the name "Darth Vader" confirmed it for him.
dum-dum-dum.

But, the EU could get trampled by the TV series. Who knows? But that was the general situation I'd assumed from the film, that he found out later that Anakin was still alive. I wonder, though if he told Owen and Beru. He may have just said, "The Empire is killing all the Jedi. I have to go into hiding. Padme and Anakin are dead. Will you raise their young one, Luke?" That's enough for them to decide to hide everything they know about Luke's family from him. If he got caught up in the same stuff as Anakin did, he's liable to end up getting them and himself killed, with the Empire intent on killing all the Jedi. (Which, by the way, totally pays off the scene in the Cantina from ANH when Obi-Wan uses his lightsaber and everyone acts like the **** hit the fan) They don't have to know that Vader was Anakin, or even that Anakin fell to the darkside, to recognize that the Luke represented bad mojo.

Ji'dai
07-25-2005, 05:14 PM
(Which, by the way, totally pays off the scene in the Cantina from ANH when Obi-Wan uses his lightsaber and everyone acts like the **** hit the fan) I always thought that was a reference to the classic western saloon confrontation. The music stops, the joint falls quiet, and everyone turns to enjoy the entertainment. Afterwards they go back to their drinks like nothing happened. Just another case of frontier justice.

Chaddymac
07-25-2005, 08:44 PM
I always thought that was a reference to the classic western saloon confrontation. The music stops, the joint falls quiet, and everyone turns to enjoy the entertainment. Afterwards they go back to their drinks like nothing happened. Just another case of frontier justice.
Absoultely agreeing with you Ji'Dai. We get tha same scene in Episode II at the night club on Coruscant. Definitely a throwback to the old west serials.

But I was actually referring to what happened when everyone went back to their business. One of them snitches to a sandtrooper, and then they come to investigate. Before it's like, "Hey, man. There's something going down in there and you might want to saunter in there and clear up the trouble." Now it's more like, "Dude. You missed one."

decadentdave
07-25-2005, 10:35 PM
Come on folks, think about it...

If everyone knew that Anakin was Vader then Luke would have been the target of bitter resentment. When Luke joined up with the Alliance on Yavin IV, the Biggs scene would have played out like this: "Skywalker huh? Well, your Old Man is the reason why we're doing this today. I hope you don't turn out the way HE did," and Luke would have suspected Kenobi lied to him or discovered the truth LONG before his encounter with Vader on Bespin. Yet, the Rebel pilots all seem to praise Skywalker as a great pilot which he was. Therefore, they do not know that he became Vader and probably think he was killed during the Clone Wars.

2-1B
07-26-2005, 03:31 AM
Therefore, they do not know that he became Vader and probably think he was killed during the Clone Wars.

Thus the title of the thread ! lol

Ji'dai
07-26-2005, 02:34 PM
But I was actually referring to what happened when everyone went back to their business. One of them snitches to a sandtrooper, and then they come to investigate. Before it's like, "Hey, man. There's something going down in there and you might want to saunter in there and clear up the trouble." Now it's more like, "Dude. You missed one."

Yeah, you may be right. I figured the Imperials weren't looking for Jedi though since by this time (all twenty years of it) the Knights were considered extinct and have become almost the stuff of legend, rather than the actual living historical persons they were. I think the Imperials in Mos Eisley had put out a reward for information on any new faces that appear in town, especially with droids in tow. Or maybe it was just some self-righteous snitch who thought he was doing his civic duty by tattling to the new sheriffs in town about the big hoo-doo that just went down in the Cantina.

Chaddymac
07-26-2005, 03:45 PM
Yeah, you may be right. I figured the Imperials weren't looking for Jedi though since by this time (all twenty years of it) the Knights were considered extinct and have become almost the stuff of legend, rather than the actual living historical persons they were. I think the Imperials in Mos Eisley had put out a reward for information on any new faces that appear in town, especially with droids in tow. Or maybe it was just some self-righteous snitch who thought he was doing his civic duty by tattling to the new sheriffs in town about the big hoo-doo that just went down in the Cantina.
you may be right as well...but I prefer my own interpretation ;)

Which is maybe why threads like this can be so lively, because so much is left to interpretation and we all have our own. Like whether Anakin was created by the midichlorians, by the force, or by Darth Plaigus (or however you spell it). Whether Anakin was actually the chosen one and whether or when he fulfilled the prophecy. All of these are great discussions.

As for the Jedi being extinct, everyone knows that at least Mace survived his fall into the Coruscant streets ;)

JimJamBonds
07-27-2005, 12:16 AM
Yup Anakin was killed during the Clone Wars, a Sith Lord named Darth Vader destroyed Anakin Skywalker. Just like Obbers said to Luke.

Ji'dai
07-28-2005, 02:52 PM
As for the Jedi being extinct, everyone knows that at least Mace survived his fall into the Coruscant streets ;)

Sure, Mace survived his fall and retired to some obscure planet to write his memoirs, The Journal of the Whills, under the pseudonym Mace Windy. And little blue Aayla Secura, left for dead on Felucia, had actually been blasted under the canopy of a magic mushroom with medicinal properties that healed her wounds and brought her back to life.


Aayla Lives!

El Chuxter
07-28-2005, 03:05 PM
And little blue Aayla Secura, left for dead on Felucia, had actually been blasted under the canopy of a magic mushroom with medicinal properties that healed her wounds and brought her back to life.

Unfortunately, her lekku had been blasted off by the overzealous Clonetroopers, and the magic mushroom shrunk her to a mere three apples high. In order to hide the shame of the burnt stumps where her lekku had been, she was forced to wear a loose-fitting white hat. And to keep from being discovered by the Clonetroopers, she changed her name to a Felucian word that means "only woman in the village": Smurfette.

Chaddymac
07-28-2005, 03:18 PM
Unfortunately, her lekku had been blasted off by the overzealous Clonetroopers, and the magic mushroom shrunk her to a mere three apples high. In order to hide the shame of the burnt stumps where her lekku had been, she was forced to wear a loose-fitting white hat. And to keep from being discovered by the Clonetroopers, she changed her name to a Felucian word that means "only woman in the village": Smurfette.
And here, all this time, I thought GARGAMEL was responsible for Smurfette...

Well, I guess we'll see the continuing adventures of the last of the Jedi when the CGI Smurfs movie comes out in 2007...

JimJamBonds
07-28-2005, 03:31 PM
And here, all this time, I thought GARGAMEL was responsible for Smurfette...

Well, I guess we'll see the continuing adventures of the last of the Jedi when the CGI Smurfs movie comes out in 2007...

Well I guess that explains why George never had her speak!

VaderhitsJarjar
07-28-2005, 04:33 PM
Come on! We all see Mace incognito running through cloud city with his icecream maker in ESB. His icecream maker has a secret compartment for his lightsaber - Mace AkA Mack Whendu roams the halls at night fighting corrupt gas miners and by day gives joy to the children of bespin. Wow I see a book deal and a spot on cartoon network for some more EU!!!