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View Full Version : Should Palmeiro be in the HOF?



JetsAndHeels
08-01-2005, 03:08 PM
Today's big news in baseball was the suspension of Rafael Palmeiro for abusing MLB's steroid policy. Just 5 months ago he was part of the testimony to Congress about the epidemic of performance enhancing drugs in the sport. His exact comment on that day where he testified was that he "Never used steroids." Now here we are on August 1st and he is busted for it.
So my question is, if you had to make the decision on whether or not he would be voted into the HOF, would you let him in despite this? Remember he has 500 HR's and 3000 Hits, and numerous gold gloves for his play over the length of his career. Now that its public knowledge he is on the juice, do you still let him into the HOF?

JimJamBonds
08-01-2005, 03:47 PM
His numbers say "yes", although he was never the best at his position which I think is a key component. I think part of what happens will be based on how this plays out, its hard for me to believe his statement that he "didn't do it on purpose." What I'd really wish could happen is to go back in time and test these guys from 5-10 maybe 15 years ago. If I had to vote one way or the other right now I'd say no.

And for the record I don't think Mark McGuire should be in the HOF. He was a one trick pony, other then his home run numbers his stats pretty much suck. Yeah yeah yeah I know he broke the single season hr record, well so did Rogar Maris (sp?) and he isn't in the HOF.

JetsAndHeels
08-01-2005, 03:51 PM
And add to all that, Jose Canseco is on espn radio as I type this saying that MLB is corrupt and destroys athletes' lives. Is this guy serious? Yeah, it all makes sense now...they have forced these guys to shoot up and use the steroids. :rolleyes:

Slicker
08-01-2005, 08:16 PM
I'm gonna stir up a hornets nest here and say if Palmeiro gets in Pete Rose should get in. Rose bet on baseball AFTER he was done playing (I know he did while a manager but you get inducted on your playing performance) while Palmeiro shot up WHILE playing. I personally don't think his numbers are anything stellar either. As for Canseco I used to really like him but now I'm sure he realized that his numbers weren't good enough for the Hall so now he's gonna try and take as many down as he can. At least he hasn't tried to take his brother Ozzie down yet.

CaptainSolo1138
08-01-2005, 09:03 PM
Rose should be in the HOF anyway, but that's a whole other thread......

As for Palmeiro, I say put him in. McGuire's gonna be a first-ballot HOF'er, so why not let the rest of 'em in?!

On a much less cynical note, I don't think Palmeiro has the "juiced" numbers that many other players of late have had (Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, etc.). His numbers are built on his longevity in the game, not his super human power or his Flash-like speed. I really do think he's one of the last of a breed of "good guys" in MLB. What did he test positive for, JF96? Since I'm not clear on the recent anti-doping legislation, is it one of the "major" drugs that was under fire or was it a supplement with traces?

JetsAndHeels
08-01-2005, 09:12 PM
Basically all that is being said right now is that he tested positive for the presence of chemical that violates the anti-steroid rules. He defended himself today by saying he had no idea what was in the supplement he used and he was unaware that it would be a problem.

Rogue II
08-01-2005, 10:09 PM
Rose should be in the HOF anyway


Dang straight.


He defended himself today by saying he had no idea what was in the supplement he used and he was unaware that it would be a problem.

Ignorance is no excuse. Professional athletes know what kind of scrutiny they are under and should know what they are putting in their bodies. I don't believe him, anyway.

I've never been a big fan of Palmeiro. He has never been the best in the league, or second best for that matter. In fact, I don't think he's finished in the top 4 in MVP voting in his career. I think his numbers are a result of longevity and steroids. Canseco may be scum, but I believe he ratted out Palmeiro in his book. Hopefully, the Hall of Fame voters will see that he has cheated and not vote him in. You know a lot of those HOF'ers whose records are being broken have to be getting ticked off at the current players who have cheated.

I'm sure it's not related, but Bonds just happened to say he probably won't be back this season. Yeah, right.

JetsAndHeels
08-01-2005, 10:14 PM
Palmeiro has only made the all star team 4 times in his career, and when he did he was not a starter. However his 500+ homeruns and 3000 hits are probably the stats that will put him in the HOF (according to espn tonight on sportscenter).
Rogue II, you are 100% correct about ignorance not being an excuse. These guys know exactly what they are doing and what is in the drugs they use. Also Palmeiro has some big trouble now because he lied under oath to congress and he may have to answer for that too.

Kidhuman
08-02-2005, 12:34 AM
I say no. I have never been a huge Palmerio fan, and never thought he should be in the HOF. This cinches it for me. The next thing you are gonna see is that baseball is racial profiling since all the guys who have gotten busted for roids are hispanic.

kool-aid killer
08-02-2005, 01:13 AM
I dont think its been "all" hispanics, but i do remember reading something about them being the majority.

I really dont know much about Palmeiro or his stats so its hard for me to say. But i do think him testing positive for some type of juice will taint his career and how its viewed later on.

Kidhuman
08-02-2005, 01:35 AM
Actually KAK, I was listening to ESPN Radio on the way home and every name they read off was hispanic.

JimJamBonds
08-02-2005, 01:43 AM
I say no to Pete Rose, his numbers leave no doubt but remember he was a player/coach for a few years. (on a side note does anybody think that will ever happen again? I say no.) He violated the #1 rule, I do say though the process has been screwy and the death of Bart Jiamadi (sp :confused:) didn't help his cause any. Since we are on the topic of who should/shouldn't be in the HOF due to shady happenings what about Phil Nekro? He cheated on purpose, even going so far as showing HOW he did it, he is in the HOF does he belong in there?

There are plenty of examples of people with drug problem's getting repeated chances to play, wife beaters, boozers etc that are in the Hall. They should do something about those guys too, nut just the corkers and roid takers.

jjreason
08-02-2005, 02:34 AM
Use of steroids presents an interesting moral dilemma, as it's always been viewed by outsiders as "cheating" - yet the policy against it's use in most professional North American sports leagues is relatively new. Let's have a look at our 2 most recent HOF inductees - Wade Boggs and Ryne Sandberg.... anyone want to go out on a limb and bet neither one of them ever used the juice? What about any other inductee who played during the 70s and 80s? We'd have to have a time machine to ensure that Rose (since he's been a topic here) never juiced.

3000 + 500 = HOF as far as I'm concerned, baseball's like math - numbers don't lie.

Oh, and yes, Pete Rose should definitely be in. The voters are hypocrites.

Rogue II
08-02-2005, 10:08 PM
Wade Boggs was on Fried Chicken. Sandberg made a comments towards steroid users during his induction speech. Frank Robinson said that anyone caught using steroids should have all their stats erased from the record books. That would keep 'em out of the Hall of Fame.

Supposedly Pete Rose admitted to using some sort of "speed" during games. Granted, it isn't the same as steroids and I don't think they were illegal.

I heard that a lot of Latinos are being caught because the things they are taking are legal in their home countries.

Here is some interesting info:

Jose Canseco became a teammate of Palmeiro when he was traded to Texas half way throught the 1992 season. From 1986-1992, Palmeiro never hit more than 26 HRs in a season. Canseco says he introduced Palmeiro to steroids. In 1993, Palmeiro hit 37 HRs. Palmeiro has continued to hit at least 37 HRs every season since then except for last year and in the '94 season when he was injured, he hit 23 in 111 games.

Kidhuman
08-03-2005, 01:02 AM
ESPN says Palmerio tested positive for anabolic steroids. So he lied.

Tonysmo
08-03-2005, 05:48 AM
I think they should keep them all out now until mandatory testing is across the board.

I dont think Mark McGwire deserves it either. his NON admission to congress to me was a total - YES , I DID THEM..

every single player who goes in the HOF will have the dreaded * from now on.

Deoxyribonucleic
08-03-2005, 01:23 PM
"His numbers" are only high because of his stupid steroid use! I say ban him from baseball for life (and all who use steroids) and definitely do not put him in the HOF!!

Shoot, baseball is cool, but what I'd really like to know is without steroids, have all those old glory baseball stars' records really been beat?? Doubtful. Todays players are shameful drug addicts whose homerun hitting comes from a freekin bottle and NOT from hard work.

They're all a bunch of losers!!

jjreason
08-03-2005, 01:32 PM
ESPN says Palmerio tested positive for anabolic steroids. So he lied.

He tested positive for Stanozolol - a horrendous steroid in the eyes of Canadian sports fans as that's what our sprinter and 88 Gold medalist in the 100 metre dash Ben Johnson tested postive for after he broke the world record. I remember that awful, sinking feeling of shame and embarrassment, both for Johnson and our country. It is cheating, and horribly dangerous to the person either stupid or gullible enough to give it a try.

What I was saying above is that it's impossible to go back and test historical players for substance. I think it's more fair to say that any stats accrued by the player since the introduction of policy against the use of steroids should not be counted (well, counted, but not considered as part of their legitimate career stats, if that makes sense).

The only way this policy would have any teeth would be if they decided to start taking wins away from the clubs who's players are caught using the steroids. Imagine the crackdown in New York if all of a sudden all of the games Giambi played in for the Yankees before being caught we're made losses in the record books, and they were sunk into last place? That would learn 'em. You'd see the teams taking a much more proactive role in policing their players too - I'll tell you that much.

JimJamBonds
08-03-2005, 02:28 PM
Shoot, baseball is cool, but what I'd really like to know is without steroids, have all those old glory baseball stars' records really been beat?? Doubtful. Todays players are shameful drug addicts whose homerun hitting comes from a freekin bottle and NOT from hard work.

They're all a bunch of losers!!

I think there is more to it then just roids, the game has changed and now the more runs in a game the better (apparently). Ballparks are smaller, the pitchers mound was lowered. Players make enough money that they don't need to have off season jobs, they work out and come into spring training in better shape then then players did in the past. There is a 'science' that is in all sports now that didn't exisit years ago. All of those things along with many more have helped the numbers explosion over the last dozen or so years. After saying all of that I do believe though that steroids has played a role, and a big role at that.

I know some people will say "well it was just recently banned" by the MLB yes that is true but you know what? Its been banned by the US for years! There may have been no baseball law broken but Federal laws were!

Deoxyribonucleic
08-03-2005, 03:21 PM
I think there is more to it then just roids, the game has changed and now the more runs in a game the better (apparently). Ballparks are smaller, the pitchers mound was lowered. Players make enough money that they don't need to have off season jobs, they work out and come into spring training in better shape then then players did in the past. There is a 'science' that is in all sports now that didn't exisit years ago. All of those things along with many more have helped the numbers explosion over the last dozen or so years.

True enough! But I believe this also adds to the arguement against steriods...with all this new "sports technology" and being able to work out and achieve strength beyond their predecessors, why on earth do they need to add steroids in the mix? On the other hand, I can understand why they do...because so many of them do use steroids, those who don't, don't have a chance to achieve "greatness" in statistics as those who do, so they must hop on the steroids wagon so that they too can compete and stay in the league.

It's a viscious circle if you ask me, but one they will all pay for dearly in the end when their bodies give out on them and all the effects of all those steroids take their final toll.

dr_evazan22
08-03-2005, 10:12 PM
I think if your going to ban Pete Rose for gambling then you should also ban any who use performance enhancers. One is as morally ambiguous as the other.

Kidhuman
08-04-2005, 01:01 AM
Kick Crackhead LT out of the HOF too.

JimJamBonds
08-04-2005, 01:16 AM
True enough! But I believe this also adds to the arguement against steriods...with all this new "sports technology" and being able to work out and achieve strength beyond their predecessors, why on earth do they need to add steroids in the mix? On the other hand, I can understand why they do...because so many of them do use steroids, those who don't, don't have a chance to achieve "greatness" in statistics as those who do, so they must hop on the steroids wagon so that they too can compete and stay in the league.

It's a viscious circle if you ask me, but one they will all pay for dearly in the end when their bodies give out on them and all the effects of all those steroids take their final toll.

Yeah I gave reasons why not to be on the juice but in the end if a few shots means you can go from 20 hrs a year to 30 you can make a few extra mill a year. Its quicker and easier... like the dark side. :D

Deoxyribonucleic
08-04-2005, 01:18 PM
but in the end if a few shots means you can go from 20 hrs a year to 30 you can make a few extra mill a year. Its quicker and easier... like the dark side. :D lol lol lol

You're just too bad ;)

JimJamBonds
08-04-2005, 02:31 PM
You're just too bad ;)

Thank you Sir! :classic: Did anybody by chance happen to hear Will Clark on the Dan Patrick Show on ESPN Radio yesterday? Long story short he said Palmeiro did it on purpose, although apparently there is some bad blood between those two I couldn't believe what I was hearing!:sur:

JetsAndHeels
08-04-2005, 02:47 PM
I heard some of it also JJB2. Will Clark was a pretty good player in his day, but man he totally dropped off the face of the earth until yesterday.

Also, has anyone read the story about Palmeiro possibly being held accountable for purgery??
I have a feeling things are going to get uglier before they get better. Not just for Palmeiro, but MLB as a whole.

JimJamBonds
08-04-2005, 03:14 PM
As bad as this is and belive you me I think its bad, this is showing that the policy is working and is proving to be a good thing.

JetsAndHeels
08-04-2005, 03:18 PM
And in the "when it rains it pours" category, the Orioles have fired manager Lee Mazilli.
Things are tough in Baltimore right now. The Palmeiro business, blowing a 1st place spot in the AL East, lack of pitching, etc and now letting go the manager.
Talk about a collapse.

Slicker
08-04-2005, 03:23 PM
I think Palmeiro really did himself in at the Congressional hearings by being one of the few to deny using juice and he did it in such dramatic fashion that I honestly believed him. I believe he'll be brought on perjury charges and we'll go from there. I really hope the new rules are responsible for this and not just some strange fluke.

Kidhuman
08-05-2005, 02:07 AM
He cant be brought up on perjury becuase he was never caught before hand. They have to prove he did it before the Congreesional hearings, which will be impossible to do.

Rogue II
09-28-2005, 07:14 PM
The 2nd Congressional hearing for steroids with had so many good quotes, but I think my favorite is:


Later, Sen. George Allen, R-Va., made a not-so-veiled reference to Bonds, who has denied using steroids: ``As far as Hank Aaron is concerned, if a certain player breaks his home run record, it's not a question of an asterisk. ... There probably ought to be an 'RX' next to it.''

Last night, on Baseball Tonight, they were talking about Palmiero sneaking into Camden Yards to clean out his locker. They also talked about how he won't remembered for 300hits/500 HRs, but for his steroids and trying to throw Migel Tejada under the bus. In case you didn't hear, it was leaked that Palmeiro told the investigators in his purgery case that he got something from Tejada that could have caused the positive test. It aparently was only a vitamin (B12, I think). Maybe there is hope that he won't get into the HOF.

Slicker
09-28-2005, 07:18 PM
They also talked about how he won't remembered for 300hits/500 HRs, but for his steroids and trying to throw Migel Tejada under the bus. In case you didn't hear, it was leaked that Palmeiro told the investigators in his purgery case that he got something from Tejada that could have caused the positive test. It aparently was only a vitamin (B12, I think). Maybe there is hope that he won't get into the HOF.I saw that and it sickened me. Trying to bring someone else down with him is just pathetic. He f**ked up and he isn't man enough to fess up to it.

As for Bonds he's talking about trying to lose 30 pounds by next season. Coindentally that's about as much weight as a person would lose when they stop taking steriods. Mr. Aaron should be upset indeed.

2-1B
09-28-2005, 11:54 PM
Rose bet on baseball AFTER he was done playing (I know he did while a manager but you get inducted on your playing performance)

I don't know if I could separate the two that easily, I mean even as a manager he has a conflict of interest so that calls everything into question. And like Jim Jam said, he was a player-coach anyway so it's all up in the air. Maybe if he wasn't such a lying weasel about it for so long, he could have slithered his way in to the Hall. I don't know. :confused:

I do know that Jim Gray is my hero. :crazed:

Kidhuman
09-29-2005, 08:28 AM
Betting on the game as a manager is worse than betting as a player IMO. He could stick the wrong pitcher in the game, wrong pinch hitter, wrong pinch runner, to where as a player only he has to screw it up himself. He has more of an impact as a manger.